Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Eegah]

After they screwed up Shae for so long, it's bizarre to see the show suddenly want us to sympathize with her again rather than showing her as an absurdly paranoid bitch. It actually felt like George was saying to Dan and Dave "See, guys? This was all you needed to do!"

[quarks]

Bronn never said that the boat left. He said that Shae got on the boat, which is not the same thing.  She might well have gotten off the boat the second Bronn left, or alternatively Cersei or Tywin's retainers found Shae on the boat and dragged her back to the Red Keep.

I thought the show did a great setup for the trial by showing just how easy it would be for anyone below the high tables to see someone drop poison into Joffrey's glass, and yet just how easy it would be for everyone, even those supposedly paying close attention (Jaime and the rest of the Kingsguard, Oberyn) to miss stuff happening at the high table. In the books it sounded so crowded that I had difficulty believing that anyone could see anything.

Edited April 14, 2014 by quarks

[Rhondinella]

Oh, they're not going to deprive us of Tyrion killing Shae.  Why on earth would they pass up such a great moment of drama?  And a scene for Dinklage's Emmy roll?

I'm guessing Tywin's men got to her, took her off the ship, and brought her back, as suggested above.

[Joystickenvy]

I'm pretty sure Shae is not gone. I think Bronn probably took her to Tywin's tower as per his request at the breakfast. Probably setting up pretty much all Tyrion's supporters other than Jaime & Varys abandoning him at the trial.

[atua]

I think Bronn's already been bought off by Tywin at this point, to set up the Oberyn vs Mountain duel later in the season.

[jellysalmon]

I'm a bit hazy on the timing of Jamie's arrival in SoS. Does he show up after the duel? Why isn't he discussed as a option for Tyrion's champion.

[yellowfred]

I'm a bit hazy on the timing of Jamie's arrival in SoS. Does he show up after the duel? Why isn't he discussed as a option for Tyrion's champion.

No, he shows up during the trial, before the duel.  He isn't much of an option for champion, mostly because he lost his hand, but also because he doesn't want to takes sides between Cersei and Tyrion.

[WearyTraveler]

I'm not clear on the rules for the season's previews on this site.  In some places I've been it's ok to discuss previews in episode threads, in others they are considered spoilers, so, I'll spoiler tag, just in case.

Regarding Shae's fate, the preview before the season aired:

had a quick shot of Shae in what seemed to be Tywin's bed in the Tower of the Hand, so, it appears that the show will keep the events of Tyrion finding her in Tywin's bed and murdering her faithful to the books

Edited April 14, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[Lady S.]

I'm a bit hazy on the timing of Jamie's arrival in SoS. Does he show up after the duel? Why isn't he discussed as a option for Tyrion's champion.

Jaime arrived right after Joffrey's death, just in time to screw Cersei by the corpse. (Which I'm looking forward to, tbh.) I believe Cersei wanted him to be her champion but he refused (that is why she tried to give him a bj in White Sword HQ, right?). He dithered on fully supporting Tyrion and had no contact with him until breaking him out of the black cell. There's also the small matter of his missing hand, which means he'd just get himself killed faster than Oberyn did.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Lady S.

[glitterpants]

Loras' "Neither will you!" answer to Jaime was the best thing they've had him do in ages. As underdeveloped as Book!Loras is, he's still more interesting than the show's version of the character, where all he gets to do is flirt with random people and be a puppet for his own family, who don't seem to have all that much respect for him. Why'd they make Loras such a useless idiot?

[Haleth]

I have a hard time believing that Shae is really gone on that boat. She was the most damning witness in the trial, after all.

 

Naw, she will undoubtedly be a surprise witness.  The big question will be whether Tywin or Tyrion kills her.

I hope Stannis can redeem himself as a character when he comes riding in like the cavalry at the Wall.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Haleth

[Lady S.]

Dinklage has said

Tyrion goes on a dark path this season comparing him to Walter White, and said it was pretty true to the book and something D&D have talked to him about it for a while. Of course, he doesn't read the books but I don't see why he'd bring them up just to lie or why D&D would lie to him about what's in the book. With that, and the shot of him finding Shae naked in bed in one of the trailers, I'm fairly confident her death will be as it should

. It's just a matter of how they get there, which has so far involved making Shae pretty stupid. Tywin meeting her this early should be interesting.

[Jalyn]

Interesting little difference - Tyrion didn't dump out the cup while everyone was taking care of Joffery. I always loved that little detail just for sheer beautiful writing. While it made him look more guilty of the murder, the character had a perfectly reasonable and in character reason to do so. He assumed his wife had done it and wanted to protect her. Sensible, in character actions from everyone involved that move the plot forward.

I'm sure you can do it without that and if it isn't going to be a plot point on both sides, you have to cut it. Otherwise anyone who isn't already in the know will assume Tyrion really did kill him.

[Eegah]

Another thought that's just occurred to me: does this mean the show is never going to clear up who sent the guy to kill Bran? Revealing it now really won't have the same impact as when Joffrey was still alive.

[Jalyn]

Three real options:

1: Tyrion was wrong and the show runners aren't bothering with the red herring

2: Tyrion will realize it somehow during the trial period. I can't imagine another point where it could come up, really. Perhaps he figures it out in front of someone else and it's used as evidence?

3: They've completely forgotten about that thread and will let it drop.

[jellysalmon]

I hope they have Bronn abandon Tyrion. He is such a show watcher favorite, it would be devastating.

[Danny Franks]

Bronn taking Ser Ilyn Payne's place as Jaime's sparring partner? I like it. It gives him a role on the show once Tyrion is out of the Kings Landing picture, and him and Jaime bantering should be a lot of fun. And I know that it might have to do with Wilko Johnson, who plays Payne, being diagnosed with cancer, which is terrible. But I think it does give them an opportunity to do something interesting.

I wonder whether Jaime will be so honest about himself with Bronn, though. Bronn who can, and will, talk back.

[OakGoblinFly]

Another thought that's just occurred to me: does this mean the show is never going to clear up who sent the guy to kill Bran? Revealing it now really won't have the same impact as when Joffrey was still alive.

I thought the show did that, I remember Cersei talking to someone about how Joffrey overheard Robert mention "the crippled Stark kid and how someone "should put him out of misery."

[Holmbo]

I have seen people speculating for seasons about how Shae will feel betrayed by Tyrion and "the fury of the woman scorned" will get her to testify against Tyrion. After this episode it's the first time I actually can see it happen.
I think that someone somehow got hold of her before the ship sailed and she will be more than happy to humiliate Tyrion after what he said to her. I still can't see Tyrion killing her for it. But they might get there, with enough trial scenes. Poor Tyrion, those scenes will be harder to watch then they where to read.

[Pickles Aplenty]

I really hope they don't take the easy way out and have Tyrion not kill Shae.  It's awful to read in the book, but I feel like it really hammers home the fact that Tyrion became the monster his family always told him he was, and if they wuss out and choose not to include it it doesn't make the character as interesting.  Don't get me wrong, Tyrion is plenty interesting already, but the murder of Shae makes him even more sad and complex.  I think it should happen on the show as well.

[Haldebrandt]

She'll be back, I'm guessing in a dramatic fashion as a surprise witness at the trial. I like it.

Having turned to their tale into one of mutual love, they had to give her a motivation to betray him beyond self-preservation.

So they come up with the whole subplot of these two episodes. She had to feel hurt, rejected, betrayed even, in order to turn on him. And she was.

(Sorry, about the two posts, phone is acting up)

[Dev F]

Three real options:

1: Tyrion was wrong and the show runners aren't bothering with the red herring

2: Tyrion will realize it somehow during the trial period. I can't imagine another point where it could come up, really. Perhaps he figures it out in front of someone else and it's used as evidence?

3: They've completely forgotten about that thread and will let it drop.

It could also be something that Bran himself discovers as he's journeying through time as a tree. They'll have to do something to pad out that storyline, and it might be a good introduction to the "looking through time to uncover hidden truths" concept.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Dev F

[Haldebrandt]

BTW, I must disagree with the Lena Headey praise a page back.  She has significantly improved since her one note season 1 performance (consistently looking like she smells something bad) and has actually learned to emote.  Even so, her limits were evident in her reaction to Joffrey's death.  Oh she didn't have to plumb the depths of despair like Michelle Farley, but something stronger that what she gave us would have been nice.  Weak.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[atomationage]

 

(Also, I know the books are bestsellers, but fans, who are typically already fantasy geeks, tend the grossly overestimate the average person's desire to pick up a thousand-pages book.  And actors especially, many of who lack college education, aren't exactly bookworms in general).

I totally agree.  I have all the Ebooks, but have read very little of them.  I'm more likely to look up information on the Wiki than navigate through the pages. 

[Attaboy000]

So does anyone think that the show will show us Arya and Jon's warging dreams as well? They're pretty major parts of the characters and it would be extremely odd if they just left it out. I mean for one, Arya pulls out Catelyn out of the river in one of her wolf dreams, and when Jon is stabbed/"killed" by his brothers I'm pretty sure he ends up warging into Ghost. It would really suck if Bran was the only one to warg in the show.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Attaboy000

[Lady S.]

Not anytime soon, but I assume it'll have to figure into Jon's plot at some point. If Arya's wolf dreams were starting, we would've seen Cat's corpse in the river.

[mac123x]

Also, I know the books are bestsellers, but fans, who are typically already fantasy geeks, tend the grossly overestimate the average person's desire to pick up a thousand-pages book

I’m a fan and a fantasy geek and I still hate the length of the books.  I’ll skip entire chapters during a re-read.  Hell, the first time I read them I skimmed quite a bit, particularly his excessive descriptions of food served at feasts.  (Not just because he can go on for pages at a time describing the food, but also because a lot of it sounds revolting.  “Quail blanched in milk and stuffed with leeks, walnuts and pigs brains, served on a bed of lettuce and dryer lint”.)

He really could have used a forceful editor to trim out some of the fat.  I mean, do we really need multiple chapters in AFFC of Brienne wandering aimlessly in her search for Sansa?

[OakGoblinFly]

Not anytime soon, but I assume it'll have to figure into Jon's plot at some point. If Arya's wolf dreams were starting, we would've seen Cat's corpse in the river.

Not necessarily -- sure in the books it happens.  I think for show/shock purposes it makes sense to hold off on revealing that nugget for as long as possible.

I’m a fan and a fantasy geek and I still hate the length of the books.  I’ll skip entire chapters during a re-read.  Hell, the first time I read them I skimmed quite a bit, particularly his excessive descriptions of food served at feasts.  (Not just because he can go on for pages at a time describing the food, but also because a lot of it sounds revolting.  “Quail blanched in milk and stuffed with leeks, walnuts and pigs brains, served on a bed of lettuce and dryer lint”.)

He really could have used a forceful editor to trim out some of the fat.  I mean, do we really need multiple chapters in AFFC of Brienne wandering aimlessly in her search for Sansa?

And the descriptions of the sigil of Sir I'll Never Hear From You Again.  I admit that I did skim a lot of the Iron Island stuff as well as Brienne and Pod's Excellent Adventures ..... those chapters really needed a heavy editing hand.

[Boundary]

I skimmed quickly on my first reads, in order to get to the plot but not on subsequent rereads, because that's where the hidden story lurks. How else is one supposed to know how the Hound survived, the Frey pie or the many other similar instances. What seems innocuous on a first read is what keeps the interweb speculations going for years in between books. Once I have gotten the story out of the way, I appreciate the books' lengths to keep me occupied whilst I wait for the next one. 

[Fen]

I hope Stannis can redeem himself as a character when he comes riding in like the cavalry at the Wall.

Stannis is being sabotaged like nobody's business.  I've given up trying to explain why I like his character to show-only friends.

[SNeaker]

I'm a book reader (though I started the show first, which may have colored my view), and I don't really get the appeal of him either. He's certainly not as terrible as in the books (he had much more legit reasons for killing Selyse's...brother? uncle? in the books, right?), but I don't see him as rootable. I would love to hear why from people who do, though.

Edited April 17, 2014 by SNeaker

[Danny Franks]

I'm a book reader (though I started the show first, which may have colored my view), and I don't really get the appeal of him either. He's certainly not as terrible as in the books (he had much more legit reasons for killing Selyse's...brother? uncle? in the books, right?), but I don't see him as rootable. I would love to hear why from people who do, though.

I've never understood why so many characters have been viewed as rootable for, by fans. Stannis, Littlefinger and the dreadful Greyjoys, to name but a few. Of that group, Stannis is the least objectionable, because he the rightful king, no matter how much of a tiresome, humourless prig he is. I haven't really noticed much difference between book Stannis and show Stannis, because book Stannis is little more than a footnote in the War of the Five Kings, as I recall it. He killed Renly, got thrashed at the Battle of Blackwater, and then ran away to Dragonstone, and then to The Wall.

He finally became marginally interesting there, when he showed some of his pettiness and was inadvertently amusing in his scenes with Jon. But that was about it, for me. If anything, I've found show Stannis more sympathetic because Stephen Dillane gives him some humanity, in his brittle insecurity.

[Fen]

I just wish they'd be a bit more balanced about what they show of him, instead of showing him as a villainous zealot.  Alester Florent is executed for treason in the books, for trying to broker a deal with Lannisters.  Show Stannis?  'He was an infidel'. 

[Brn2bwild]

I don't know if Stannis is "rootable," but there is something kind of badass about him in the book.  He is overlooked and discounted again and again, but he just keeps pushing along.  Now he's the only "king" left to challenge the Lannisters for the Iron Throne, and is growing more powerful.

Plus, anyone

on the verge of destroying Ramsay Bolton

is a hero in my book.

[Jalyn]

Stannis was the best of evil choices when it comes to the war of 5 kings for me. Of course, that's only because he actually went to the wall to try and save the damn kingdom he was determined to rule. He may not have gotten it at first but once Davos actually threw it in his face, he went.

The show is flattening his character a lot and losing most of the nuance that makes him interesting. However, they also took away the first, and one of the worst, awful things that Book Stannis ever did by making him completely unaware of the Jaime/Cersei relationship until he heard from Ned.

[jellysalmon]

Yea show Stannis is a bit off, but I still find him fascinating due to his reasoning behind wanting to rule. He's not simply power hungry, he thinks he should be king because that's what the rules say. I think if he found out that there was someone else who had a better claim to the throne, he'd throw his weight behind that person.

[GreyBunny]

In the books he earned a lot of points with me when he said that if something were to happen to him, he wants his bannermen to put Shireen on the throne.  He loves his daughter.  At least the show manged to get across that he cares about her and is willing to defend her against her awful mother. 

[Fen]

I just feel that they are omitting a lot of detail to present him as a 'simpler' character.  It seems like they've decided on him as a weak, sulky man with entitlement issues who has been brainwashed by Melisandre.

In the books, I like that Stannis genuinely values the opinion of a lowborn man and a foreign woman.  I feel that the show instead presents this willingness to listen to advisers as a failing, and makes him look weak and easily led. 

For me, it's a strength that he values his advisors for their worth, and not their social position.  The show has Stannis express his contempt for lords once, when he makes Davos his hand, and they make it about his resentment over how they didn't do anything to aid him when he held Storm's End.  In the books, Stannis is just generally much more cynical of Lords and their motivations:

"These pardoned lords would do well to reflect on that. Good men and true will fight for Joffrey, wrongly believing him the true king. A northman might even say the same of Robb Stark. But these lords who flocked to my brother’s banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are."

He's even fair-minded enough here to be able to acknowledge why Joffrey and Robb's men support them.  Again, I feel like you'd never get that in the show.

He's also clear that taking the throne is not just his duty, but something he feels he owes to Ned, who lost his life; Robert, who was made to look a fool by Cersei, and Jon Arryn, who was murdered (by Cersei, he believes).  I don't think that this has ever been mentioned.  He also makes clear that even though he know he and Robert had a poor relationship, he's still his brother, and wants to do right by his memory.

Show!Stannis says he loved Renly when he was a boy - but is cold about him as an adult and doesn't seem to regret his death.  Book!Stannis has the more painful realisation:

'"Only Renly could vex me with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother’s peach"'

He also actually seems to give a damn about the mood of the peasantry:

'abruptly, he said, "what do the small folk say of Renly's death?"'

'"How did the commons take the news of Cersei's incest?"'

Don't get me wrong.  Book!Stannis has his failings.  He's hypersensitive, a champion sulker, and broods for years over petty slights.  He has Theon-sized issues about feeling unloved by family.  He likes to be seen as dispassionate and order-driven, but he's a seething mass of emotional resentments.  But there's all the other positive stuff I mentioned.  Combine that - and you get an interesting character.  As it is, most people I know are bored whenever the action switches to Dragonstone in the show.

However, they also took away the first, and one of the worst, awful things that Book Stannis ever did by making him completely unaware of the Jaime/Cersei relationship until he heard from Ned

I found book!Stannis' approach to that whole thing pretty interesting.  He knows fine well that Robert will not take him seriously due to their relationship, and - rightly - thinks that he would be more likely to listen to Jon Arryn.  Then he sees what happens to Jon Arryn, suspects Cersei, and realises that trying to do anything with this matter is insanely dangerous.  He then fled to Dragonstone to decide what to next.  It delineates him nicely against Ned in terms of pragmatism - since Ned simply ploughs on with his investigation, despite the obvious danger.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Fen

[Zalyn]

Great discussions here!  I find myself torn between wanting to see canon followed and desiring an interesting story transformed for television.  Sometimes you just get great chemistry with some actors you weren't expecting, or the show wants to give certain characters more screen time than they had in the books.

Bronn taking Ser Ilyn Payne's place as Jaime's sparring partner? I like it. It gives him a role on the show once Tyrion is out of the Kings Landing picture, and him and Jaime bantering should be a lot of fun. And I know that it might have to do with Wilko Johnson, who plays Payne, being diagnosed with cancer, which is terrible. But I think it does give them an opportunity to do something interesting.

I wonder whether Jaime will be so honest about himself with Bronn, though. Bronn who can, and will, talk back.

This was a great example of something I really liked - Bronn and Jaimie don't get to do much very interesting in the books, so this gives them a few opportunities to interact (both great characters) and to give some insight into their mental state (at least for Jaimie).

I'm in the minority when I say that I prefer both Shae and Talisa in the show because they are more like real people and less like objects.  Shae in the book was boring to me - an idealized "perfect girlfriend" - and it was hard for me to see Tyrion finding her interesting except for the sex and his whore complex.  Shae on the show was witty and would poke back at Tyrion - something that he uniquely would appreciate in a woman because he like mental sparring.  It does make it difficult to wrap up her storyline in the show though, so I'm curious to see how they manage that.

Likewise, Talisa actually seemed like a character who would be a good queen.  This emphasized good judgement by Robb rather than youthful indiscretion.  Yes, in the book he made the "honorable" choice, but there was no indication that Jeyne would have made any better of a queen than a Frey Gal.  Talisa, meanwhile, pushed back on Robb and encouraged him to grow into a man who could be a great king.  That is a responsibility of a ruler to his people - to choose a partner who can rule beside them judiciously and to make them be a better leader - and that can even take precedence over a micro-honor issue (it isn't easy being honorable!)  It took me a while to get over my suspicion at her being a spy, but when I did, I was quite impressed to see such a strong character in this story.  It was also very nice to see not only a loving, consensual, het couple on screen (last one was... Ned and Catelyn?), but to see them equally assertive and interested in each other.

Martin's outlook on the world has changed since he wrote the first books, and I think that his willingness to give certain side characters more depth and agency of their own is a great thing for the show.  As long as it enriches the story and maximizes the use of good actor chemistry, I would rather see an interesting, internally logical transformed television show than a scene-for-scene reenactment of the books. 

[Haleth]

I like Book Stannis too.  He would have made a fine king after the messes created by Aerys, Robert, and Joffrey.  Stannis is firm but fair.  He believes in the rule of law. His conversations with his conscience, er, Davos show that he would have dedicated himself to restoring honor and justice to the throne.  Plus he saw the big picture, the true threat coming from the north, and abandoned his quest for the throne to go to the Wall where he was needed.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Haleth

[Danny Franks]

I like Book Stannis too.  He would have made a fine king after the messes created by Aerys, Robert, and Joffrey.  Stannis is firm but fair.  He believed in the rule of law. His conversations with his conscience, er, Davos show that he would have dedicated himself to restoring honor and justice to the throne.  Plus he saw the big picture, the true threat coming from the north, and abandoned his quest for the throne to go to the Wall where he was needed.

I disagree. For me, Donal Noye had the right assessment of the Baratheon brothers, when he compared them to metals. Stannis showed himself, time and again, as too insecure and too thin-skinned when it came to what he perceived as slights.

He might have been a capable warrior and solid administrator, but I think he would end up alienating everyone around him, in the end. It's telling that the only man who seems to have a personal relationship with him is one who values loyalty and honour just as much as Stannis. How would Stannis do in dealing with Lannisters, Tyrells or Martells? Not well, I don't think. He'd either completely fall victim to their conniving, or he'd end up making enemies of them through punishment of supposed misdeeds.

I feel that the books always made it clear that Robert won the throne because he had the charisma to make people follow him. He was a large, gregarious personality capable of inspiring loyalty and affection. And even though he wasn't a very good king, he still had that strength of personality to keep the Seven Kingdoms united. Without Robert, things fell apart in the space of about a chapter. I don't see Stannis as a man capable of reuniting anyone.

[Fen]

 

For me, Donal Noye had the right assessment of the Baratheon brothers, when he compared them to metals.

I don't know.  Donal Noye hadn't actually seen any of the Baratheon brothers for a long time, and people change and grow.  Robert is far from true steel byt the time he is drinking and whoring and neglecting his duties as King.  Stannis bends all the time.  He didn't believe in Gods, but he acknowledges R'hllor.  He realises that he was taking the wrong approach to winning the throne, and changes his attitude.  If you want to carry the metal symbolism through, he is tempered by the experience of defeat at Blackwater.  You could also say that Noye knew him before Davos and Melisandre, and now Stannis is more of an alloy.  And now the metal imagery has definitely gone too far :)

For me, Ned - bless him - is a much better example of iron. 

I feel that the books always made it clear that Robert won the throne because he had the charisma to make people follow him. He was a large, gregarious personality capable of inspiring loyalty and affection.

One of my favourite things is how Thoros of Myr was sent to convert kings, and instead Robert converted him to drinking and carousing.  That's brilliant.

[blixie]

 

I feel that the books always made it clear that Robert won the throne because he had the charisma to make people follow him.

Yep, that's why I can never back Stannis as king, and he himself knows it to be true as well, he is not well loved and that is why he is, as Davos says, King of the Painted Table (and of course why Joffrey was murdered). He might be the "rightful" king, but only in the sense he's heir to a Usurper. The entire point of GoT is might, trumps right. I like Stannis, I find Stannis compelling, and admirable, yet definitely not rootable. Yes a good King keeps wise council but I just I am never going to accept Mel as wise council. She's well-intentioned, but still pretty clueless and evil AFAIK. Burning people who don't kowtow to R'Holler is bullshit. Stannis supporting and participating in that is Bullshit. And he is a kinslayer whether he fully understands and accepts that or not, another of his precious rules broken.  I admire that he wants to follow the law, and that he values Davos, but I'm frustrated by his refusal to see everybody, including him, breaks the rules when it's convenient for them to break them ,and rationalize the fact that they did break them. 

[SNeaker]

Burning people who don't kowtow to R'Holler is bullshit. Stannis supporting and participating in that is Bullshit. And he is a kinslayer whether he fully understands and accepts that or not, another of his precious rules broken.  I admire that he wants to follow the law, and that he values Davos, but I'm frustrated by his refusal to see everybody, including him, breaks the rules when it's convenient for them to break them ,and rationalize the fact that they did break them.

Yes, this, basically. And that's all true in the books as well as the show. The show may have made him even worse, but the book version ain't too hot either, imo. He just strikes me as an insecure prig who lets a crazy religious fanatic run the show. Sure, he makes smart and just decisions sometimes, and...but so do they all.

Edited April 18, 2014 by SNeaker

[Danny Franks]

I don't know.  Donal Noye hadn't actually seen any of the Baratheon brothers for a long time, and people change and grow.  Robert is far from true steel byt the time he is drinking and whoring and neglecting his duties as King.  Stannis bends all the time.  He didn't believe in Gods, but he acknowledges R'hllor.  He realises that he was taking the wrong approach to winning the throne, and changes his attitude.  If you want to carry the metal symbolism through, he is tempered by the experience of defeat at Blackwater.  You could also say that Noye knew him before Davos and Melisandre, and now Stannis is more of an alloy.  And now the metal imagery has definitely gone too far :)

I agree that Robert's steel had softened significantly (and that's an insult Cersei might have used on him, from time to time) by the time we saw him in A Game Of Thrones. He'd been worn down by years of carousing and drinking and gluttony, not unlike King Edward IV, who I feel GRRM definitely drew his inspiration for Robert. A great man gone to seed.

Perhaps you could characterise Stannis' conversion to Rh'llor as bending, but I'm not sure. It seemed to me that he just dropped one unbending philosophy to pick up another one. And he had little choice but to change tactics after the Battle of Blackwater. Still, it's definitely an argument to be had. But the problem with him isn't so much in his choice of tactics, but in his inability to deal with people in a way that allows for compromise or understanding. He's occasionally forced into compromise, because it's either that or defeat, but he never attempted to see things from any point of view but his own.

His belief that he should be king because he's the rightful king is something that has always struck me as dubious. He's only 'rightful king' because Robert usurped the last rightful king. In Westeros, the rightful king is the man sitting on the Iron Throne, no matter what pedigree he has.

As for Ned being iron, I agree that he was. But he also had a warmth to him that inspired loyalty and affection from his followers. Two of the most poignant bits of ADWD for me were when Wylla Manderly espoused the loyalty and love the North still felt for the Starks, and when the men of the Northern hill tribes said it was worth fighting Bolton to save "Ned's girl". 

[yellowfred]

Shae in the book was boring to me - an idealized "perfect girlfriend" - and it was hard for me to see Tyrion finding her interesting except for the sex and his whore complex.  Shae on the show was witty and would poke back at Tyrion - something that he uniquely would appreciate in a woman because he like mental sparring.  It does make it difficult to wrap up her storyline in the show though, so I'm curious to see how they manage that.

I agree with most of your post, but especially this.  Book!Shae, to me, was a rather worrisome indicator of how Tyrion looked at women in general.  Show!Shae is almost the opposite of that; she's someone that Tyrion can see as an equal of sorts, rather than a possession.  Plus, her relationship with Sansa on the show makes her infinitely more likable to me (I never quite forgave book!Shae for that "all they did was rape her" comment).  In fact, my only complaint about show!Shae is that she ultimately has the same fate as book!Shae, and I'll be significantly sadder about it this time.

[Zalyn]

Plus, her relationship with Sansa on the show makes her infinitely more likable to me (I never quite forgave book!Shae for that "all they did was rape her" comment).  In fact, my only complaint about show!Shae is that she ultimately has the same fate as book!Shae, and I'll be significantly sadder about it this time.

I really liked that choice as well!  It gave a nice complexity - and a good dilemma - for Shae because she does have a friendship with Sansa but is also upset about how she can't be publicly acknowledged by Tyrion. It also helped narratively both to give Sansa a way to express some of her inner thoughts (which are more easily conveyed through the book) and to let Shae serve as an audience proxy for exposition.  It was a good move both in story and in show, IMO. 

I have been trying to figure out how they'll bring it back in line with the plot (or will they?  It would be nice to see Kekelli stay on in some way because she brings some different energy).

[lawless]

I agree with most of your post, but especially this.  Book!Shae, to me, was a rather worrisome indicator of how Tyrion looked at women in general.  Show!Shae is almost the opposite of that; she's someone that Tyrion can see as an equal of sorts, rather than a possession.  Plus, her relationship with Sansa on the show makes her infinitely more likable to me (I never quite forgave book!Shae for that "all they did was rape her" comment).  In fact, my only complaint about show!Shae is that she ultimately has the same fate as book!Shae, and I'll be significantly sadder about it this time.

 

Except for Show!Shae suddenly becoming inexplicably naïve and blasé about the incredible danger Tywin and Cersei pose, I actually really like Show!Shae too, and think she is a vast improvement on the Book version.  I really grew to dislike Tyrion in the books, especially his unabashed misogyny in the last book.  I understand that many readers feel the Show has whitewashed Tyrion and don't like it, but I am actually really glad.  There aren't all that many characters to root for on this show (who aren't dead anyway), and while I appreciate moral complexity, Book!Tyrion went way too far into self-centered, self-pitying, woman-hating monster for me.  Maybe particularly since Peter Dinklage is so charismatic and sympathetic, I am glad they softened Tyrion on the Show, as I like watching him and want to root for him.  I personally felt that the Book went too far with him.  I can't really ever come round to rooting for a character that repeatedly fantasizes about raping and then murdering his sister for revenge -- even Cersei, even after everything she did.  I can understand wanting to kill her because of what she did to him, and it's not that rape is a fate worse than death, but it's the desire to "put a woman in her place" through rape that is too much.  That has nothing to do with their personal conflict, and everything to do with sexism, which is carried over into the way Tyrion's thoughts about all woman are described in the Book.  I cannot see Show!Tyrion wanting to rape any woman for revenge, and he does seem to see woman as people, and that is for the better, in my opinion. 

As this relates to Shae, I am so, so, so, hoping that the Show deviates from the Book, and that Tyrion doesn't kill her and that she doesn't die by anyone's hand.  I hope they merge Shae's storyline with Tysha's story, and that Shae ends up in parts unknown in Essos, and that if Tyrion goes looking for the place "where whores go," it's because he's hoping to find Shae.  While this would be a definite deviation from the Book, I would like it and find it more interesting for Tyrion to hit rock bottom and realize he should have run to the free cities with Shae when she suggested it after the battle of the Blackwater -- coming to the realization that his pride was his downfall and that he missed his chance to escape his horrible family (as Shae advised him to do then) while he could.  Also, I know Shae on the Show, and I care about her, so having Tyrion hoping to find her would mean something to me, whereas Tyrion's supposed quest to find Tysha was just self-indulgent nonsense to me.  

[ElizaD]

I have been trying to figure out how they'll bring it back in line with the plot (or will they?  It would be nice to see Kekelli stay on in some way because she brings some different energy).

IMO, all the changes to Shae have been so that Tyrion will look better. In the books, it's a sad relationship because it should be pretty obvious to the reader that Shae is a shallow, petty person (her indifference to Lollys' rape and the planned marriage to Sansa, for example) and that Tyrion is deluding himself about her nature; he also mistreats her, wanting sex and affection but ultimately taking away the nice things Shae had received as her payment for doing her job and making her work in the keep despite the risk. On the show, Shae hasn't been universally beloved by fans but she's still been portrayed as being genuinely in love with Tyrion and as a compassionate person who wants to protect Sansa. So Tyrion being in love with a woman like that is understandable and not a sign of his issues and character flaws at all. But now they've come to the season in which he needs to kill Shae, so they must undo Shae's previous character development (I expect all her scenes with Sansa will turn out to have been completely meaningless and her testimony will be all "a woman scorned"). Unlike the selfish Book Tyrion, Show Tyrion nobly sacrifices his happiness by trying to send Shae away for her own good. Which will lead to her transformation into a jealous bitch who lies about him at the trial for plain cruel revenge (unlike Book Shae, who was always just Tyrion's prostitute with no more obligation than fan favorite Bronn to sacrifice herself for her employer once the money and the prospects stopped looking good). TV Shae will look like she deserved her death for not appreciating what this perfect gentleman did to protect her. She will get even more of the blame than Book Shae did (I've already seen "why was she stupid enough to want to stay?" in various places, and expect it to be joined by "how could she be so vindictive?" after she testifies) and when Tyrion murders her for hurting his feelings the majority of the audience will cheer. On TV, it'll be about poor Tyrion and how the bitch had it coming. In the books, it was about how Tyrion had been screwed up by Tywin and the Tysha lie to the point where he wanted love but couldn't deal with a real woman with a mind of her own (on one occasion Tyrion actually hit Shae when he didn't like her sass and questions, and he gets terribly bitter when Sansa keeps on not wanting him - for all his own smarts he wants his women to be merry dolls, not intellectual challenges), so that Shae's murder was the tragic but logical conclusion to his misogyny and increasing anger at his powerlessness and sense of not being appreciated.

[Brn2bwild]

I'm hoping if Shae testifies, we'll get a follow-up scene where she tells Tywin that she only did it because Tywin promised to spare Tyrion's life and send him to the Wall.  That would make Shae look better, and since Tyrion wouldn't know about these motives, it might not prevent him from turning on her at the end of the season.