Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Haldebrandt]

I dunno.  I like how utterly unpredictable Oberyn is.

That's preserved since it would be his idea.

[Haldebrandt]

Tiny inconsequential wish: I badly want to see Jaime order Meryn Trant to become the king's taster.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[K26dp]

Who cares about Tysha? No one that I know of, including Tyrion. Does anyone even remember Tysha, in terms of the show? Shae is the relationship people have invested in, I think

This was my problem with the books! Tyrion murders his girlfriend, a character I like, and then is off whining about some girl who's not a character in the books whom he was married to for two weeks many years ago. He's like "oh, Tysha, Tysha," and I'm all "The hell with Tysha, what about Shae, you asshole? Die!" and I lost all sympathy for him. I really, really hope they don't go with that scene the same way on the TV show, because I felt like it was a major misstep in the books. GRRM has said he wants to make Tyrion a morally neutral character as opposed to a "goodguy" or "badguy," but killing Shae just made him irredeemably bad. It's the whole horrible "disposable sex worker" thing, I guess. I stopped watching True Blood after they had Bill procure a stripper to kill, I think it was partway into the 3rd season. I had read the books, and the book character would never do anything like that. And the show tried to make it "okay" by having him determine that she was just a sex worker, with no family. In other words, not a real person with value. But sex workers are people too, and killing one is no less wrong than killing a bank teller or social worker or UPS delivery guy. And my hatred for the character I'm supposed to forgive only increases the more the show tries to tell me the victim was worthless. Shae has no power and her life is in danger. What the hell is she supposed to do, be bravely tortured to death defending her man? F*** that. And f*** book Tyrion too. The show has a chance to do better.

 

A couple things...

• Tyrion didn't kill Shae because he was a sex worker, he killed her because he felt monsterously betrayed by her. It doesn't excuse the murder, but it was definitely a crime of passion, not a murder because he felt she was "worthless".
• IMO, after he kills Shae and Tywin, Tyrion is in a psychological state of severe depression. He fixates on Tysha specifically because of Jaime's revelation about how he was complicit in their meeting and in Tywin's cover-up about it, and because she becomes a stand-in for Shae in his thoughts. If you read the sample Tyrion chapter from TWoW available on the World of Ice & Fire app
  he does for a moment recall Shae and he slips into a black fugue state

  .

[Haldebrandt]

From the Unsullied forum:

I think last episode finally gave us a new development in Dany's storyline with the whole politics involved in sacking towns and making them work not being as simple as screaming and burning, so I'll say give it a bit more time because maybe this will turn into a mini GoT on its own with her dealing with all the shit power brings. At least when she got that message this episode I thought 'yes, reality check' for our dragon mom.

Heh. Looks like at least one Unsullied will enjoin the coming Meereen clusterfuck.  I guess that's something.

[Which Tyler]

I think there's plenty in Meereen to make an interesting story - we just need to not see it through Dany's eyes

[Haldebrandt]

Anyone else skeptical about dedicating an entire episode (the 9th) to the battle at the wall?  Obviously they are trying to recreate and even top the magic of the Blackwater.  And while the budget and FX were critical in ensuring the success of that episode, the other critical element will be missing at the Wall: likable

 

The Blackwater was great because the audience was conflicted about a long-desired Lannister defeat that would also unfortunately doom Tyrion, Bronn, and perhaps a few other favorites like Varys and maybe even the Hound.  And while there is no great love for Stannis, his defeat would also imperil the well-liked Davos.  So no matter how the battle went, a beloved character was going to suffer and perhaps die.  Those were the stakes.

 

The set up at the wall is much more conventional.  As far as characters, there is Jon and Sam on one side, and uh, Ygritte on the other.  It's just not the same. No one but book geeks cares about Mance Rayder.  Overall, the wildlings are a rather grim and unlikable lot.  Looks like Thorne and Thormund will have an extended fight.  

 

I'm just not sure the whole thing is worth staking an entire episode on, especially one sure to be filled with the most tedious action cliches.  But of course I'd love to be wrong.

[GreyBunny]

I agree, one of the things I loved about Blackwater is that there were characters on both sides I cared about and I shifted which side I was rooting for depending on who was featured in what scene.  This is more lopsided.  If there is an extended fight it had better have some clever and innovative choreography so I can at least enjoy that.

[Which Tyler]

Meh.

One-sided battles, in terms of sympathetic characters, never seems to harm LOTR; and there are plenty of fan complaints about the lack of big, set-piece battles.

 

A one-sided battle where our favourites are the underdogs, and look certain to go down fighting can also create a lot of tension, and done well, can be great.

 

There wont' be a big wildfire explosion, but there will be Mamaluk archer-towers... sorry, I mean giants riding mamoths; there will be a charge of the Rohirrim... no, no, I mean Stannis to the rescue; there will be a duel between the witch king and Eowyn.... OFGS! I mean Thorne vs Thormund and probably Jon vs Giant

[Fen]

 

The set up at the wall is much more conventional.  As far as characters, there is Jon and Sam on one side, and uh, Ygritte on the other.  It's just not the same. No one but book geeks cares about Mance Rayder.  Overall, the wildlings are a rather grim and unlikable lot.  Looks like Thorne and Thormund will have an extended fight.

I think the drama is going to come thinking that Jon's time is up, and seeing the likes of the scary Thenns (who have been hyped by the show) look like they're ready to win the day, and then Stannis comes riding in like the cavalry.

[Independent George]

The other problems with devoting an entire episode to the battle at the wall are:

1. If they follow the books, it basically plays out exactly like Stannis' defeat at the Blackwater. While they might go for dramatic irony, it could easily feel like they're recycling old material.

2. We've been given no reason at all to sympathize with the Wildlings.

3. Mance? Who the heck is he? (ok, He's Kieran Hinds, but still...)

4. Wasn't Stannis supposed to be at the wall five episodes ago?

[Haldebrandt]

The previous for Mockingbird totally blew the Oberyn-for-Tyrion surprise by showing the Mountain. People online are already and correctly guessing the parties in the duel specifically based on the preview.  Oh well.

[mac123x]

The Battle of the Wall in the books was (at least at the start) a siege, with the wildlings north of the wall trying to breach the one gate, and the defenders lobbing stuff at them from the top of the wall.  It doesn't have to play out like a mass storming like the attack on King's Landing.  They also had enough time to send Jon to negotiate with / assassinate Mance.

 

I bet they'll go for:

 

1.  Mance finally arrives, sets the biggest fire the north has ever seen

2.  Defenders barely hold them back, then get attacked by the Thenns and company

3.  On the verge of complete defeat, Stannis arrives to save the day.

 

Sheesh, that is a lot like the Battle of the Blackwater.

[Grammaeryn]

Ooh someone on io9 had an awesome idea - Tatiana Maslany as a sand snake!

[jellysalmon]

How about ALL the sand snakes?

[Haldebrandt]

The Viper vs Mountain thing has been thoroughly spoiled at this point (thought not the outcome), obviously by the episode title (once you see Mountain, it's easy to guess who the Viper is), but also by the preview for next week showing the Mountain, and heck, even by the season 4 trailers. Oh well.

 

I gotta say, I am finding the speculations regarding Jaime fighting for the either side rather compelling, and surprisingly, possibly more interesting than what actually does happen.  Think Jaime vs Bronn...  that's as diabolical as anything GRRM has ever written. Perhaps D&D will tease that during next episode.

 

If would be great if they made Stannis arrive during the parley like in the book (man, I would love to see a skin-changer spontaneously burst into flames in Mance's tent.  Not quite what happened but close enough).  But fat chance of that happening.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[blixie]

 

he Viper vs Mountain thing has been thoroughly spoiled at this point (thought not the outcome), obviously by the episode title (once you see Mountain, it's easy to guess who the Viper is), but also by the preview for next week showing the Mountain, and heck, even by the season 4 trailers. Oh well.

Ooh did the preview spoil it? Because I had a TV only viewer on another board predict Oberyn v. The Mountain, and I wasn't sure how someone TV only could do that, but I guess if you are reading episode titles/watching previews you could get there. 

 

Still I feel like The Mountain hasn't played the heavy on the show enough. He's responsible for so much awful shit, but do Unsullied and TV only viewers fully grasp just how AWFUL he is? It's so satisfying in the books when he dies slowly and painfully,I want them to enjoy it as much as I did.

[jellysalmon]

How about ALL the sand snakes?

I had forgotten about the details of the Sand Snakes and so I looked them up.

 

Ages range from 7-30.

Complexions range from pale to dark.

Builds range from slender to big-boned.

Temperments range from pious to curious to hot-tempered.

 

"It will be the performance of a lifetime. Like Julie Harris in the belle of Amherst."

 

I agree that the mountain hasn't been depicted as the monster he is.

Show watchers know about horse killing and brother burning, but not about rumors that he killed his father, sister and first two wives. Also that incident with Pretty Pia.

[Fen]

 

Still I feel like The Mountain hasn't played the heavy on the show enough. He's responsible for so much awful shit, but do Unsullied and TV only viewers fully grasp just how AWFUL he is?

 

I don't think he was helped by the actor changing 3 times.  I agree, though, he's practically a by-word for evil in the book, and that's not as apparent in the show.

 

I think there's plenty in Meereen to make an interesting story - we just need to not see it through Dany's eyes

 

I agree.  Bluntly - this is the first time I feel Dany's tv story has got interesting.  She's actually having to deal with problems.

[Haldebrandt]

Ooh did the preview spoil it? Because I had a TV only viewer on another board predict Oberyn v. The Mountain, and I wasn't sure how someone TV only could do that, but I guess if you are reading episode titles/watching previews you could get there. 

 

Still I feel like The Mountain hasn't played the heavy on the show enough. He's responsible for so much awful shit, but do Unsullied and TV only viewers fully grasp just how AWFUL he is? It's so satisfying in the books when he dies slowly and painfully,I want them to enjoy it as much as I did.

 

I agree to some extent, and that's one of the many many things wrong with S2.  In a story crawling with sociopaths, he is right up there with Ramsey.  The miscasting of the Mountain in S2 tells me that they may not have taken that part of the plot seriously.

 

That said, I have been surprised at how much viewers remember him, given how little he appeared in the show.  I think the image of him decapitating a horse got seared in everyone's mind.

[blixie]

 

I think the image of him decapitating a horse got seared in everyone's mind.

 

Ironically I had forgotten about that and it WAS an illustrative scene, but since then it feels like he's barely been mentioned, over the interceding seasons. To be fair a lot of what The Mountain does is "off page/screen",  and God knows I don't want to *see* it any more than I wanted to see Ramsay's off page torture of Theon, but it's just that, like, 9/10ths of Arya's list are Mountain men, The Hound is afraid of him, or at least afraid of FIRE because of him, not to mention Elia and her children.

 

And of course Tywin is ultimately responsible for him too. He's responsible for the the worst actions of Roose, The Freys, Joffrey, and The Mountain, all on his hands, at the end of his string pulls. God I'm gonna love when that fucker dies, I'm weary of the Tywin BAMF brigade, yes Charles Dance is a great actor, but TYWIN is the WORST. Something thankfully Oberon, understands, and I'm hoping they confirm the book theory, that the The Viper was poisoning that Lannister asshole even before Tyrion got to him.

[mac123x]

hoping they confirm the book theory, that the The Viper was poisoning that Lannister asshole even before Tyrion got to him.

I've seen that referenced several times on here, but I never picked that up in reading the books. I don't need a chapter / verse reference, but what in general made people come up with this theory?

[Haldebrandt]

I've seen that referenced several times on here, but I never picked that up in reading the books. I don't need a chapter / verse reference, but what in general made people come up with this theory?

 

http://boiledleather.com/post/24196234491/tywin-lannister-dead-man-shitting

 

Without endorsing it, I'd say it's plausible, if only because it explains the awful state of Tywin's body at the funeral (unless there is a better theory for that).

Ironically I had forgotten about that and it WAS an illustrative scene, but since then it feels like he's barely been mentioned, over the interceding seasons. To be fair a lot of what The Mountain does is "off page/screen",  and God knows I don't want to *see* it any more than I wanted to see Ramsay's off page torture of Theon, but it's just that, like, 9/10ths of Arya's list are Mountain men, The Hound is afraid of him, or at least afraid of FIRE because of him, not to mention Elia and her children.

 

He gets mentioned quite a bit throughout the show. By Tywin, Robb, Beric & Co, The Hound, and maybe others.  I do agree with your overall point: the audience hasn't learned to hate him like Bookwalkers did.  As a result, they will feel no great satisfaction from his lengthy death, and that's a shame.  Granted, in the books it wasn't so satisfying either, since it happened off screen (same with Lorch and Hoat).  With rare exceptions (Tywin), GRRM loves denying us a pure satisfaction of revenge.  Also, who knows what Robert Strong really is?  Maybe the Mountain is still in there, having the time of his life.

[joliefaire]

Oberyn slowly poisoning Tywin has always been one of my favorite theories, and GRRM certainly wrote in enough hints to suggest just that.  If it is/was true, its ripped right out of history.  King Henry II, known as the Lawgiver and father of Richard Lionheart and Prince John, died at Chinon castle in Anjou, with only his favorite son, John, in attendance.  Accounts exist that his body was so putrified and literally liquified that those tasked with preparing him for burial couldn't stand the horror.  Granted, he died in July, but still...  So, who knows re Tywin?  If the show is going to include hints about Oberyn, we should start seeing those hints in the coming couple episodes.

[Fable]

I'm gonna say, I don't like the books.  I watched the show on whim up to S3 last year and then read the books because I wanted to get an idea of where it was going.  I'm not a fan.  GRRM gives multiple characters the same name (for reasons unknown).  He spends pages describing things that add nothing to the narrative.  He obviously has no idea how to wrap things up.  I'm far more interested in how the show plays this story than how GRRM plays it out.

[Wilowy]

Multiple characters the same name? Can you give an example? 

[ihartcoffee]

http://boiledleather.com/post/24196234491/tywin-lannister-dead-man-shitting

 That makes total sense! Thank you for posting

 

I'm gonna say, I don't like the books.  I watched the show on whim up to S3 last year and then read the books because I wanted to get an idea of where it was going.  I'm not a fan.  GRRM gives multiple characters the same name (for reasons unknown).  He spends pages describing things that add nothing to the narrative.  He obviously has no idea how to wrap things up.  I'm far more interested in how the show plays this story than how GRRM plays it out.

I feel he introduces too many characters in the books and there are some unnecessary stories and chapter's. I liked book 3 the best and liked book 5 more than I thought I would. I can see how some wouldn't like them, some parts drag.

I like that I feel like I know whats going on. I was always lost before.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Dougal
Fix quote syntax.

[Fable]

Multiple characters the same name? Can you give an example?

 

 

I could offer many, but that would take forever, so I offer you this instead: 

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/List_of_Characters#A

 

I am talking first names only, but take a peek.  Multiple Roberts, multiple Erdics, multiple  Eddards, multiple Alyns. multiple Balons,  and so on and so forth!  I grant some of these characters may be from GRRM's world building stories but not all.  At least on the show they did the courtesy of changing like-sounding names for the sake of clarity, not so much in the books!  

[Mya Stone]

Well, as someone with an incredibly common name, I'd say it's pretty realistic. Especially in the 1400-1600s when people named their children to honor others.

[sev]

And if you read a history book it's exactly the same. People name their children after family members or famous people. It's absolutely realistic.  This doesn't mean it has to work in fiction, but as much as I can't remember names, I got used to it, probably because it made sense for the story setting and the amount of characters.

Edited May 16, 2014 by sev

[Fable]

If it works for you that is fine, but for me, it became confusing from a story telling point of view.  It is believable but no less confusing! 

[Lord of Bones]

If Lord Beric is the same guy every time he's brought back, why not the Mountain? He may have suffered a painful death, but I believe he's alive and still the same villain he always was. Maybe the show will give some more backstory on Ser Gregor before the trial by combat. This is one scene where I hope they use a lot of book dialogue.

[Lady S.]

I guess you believe his helmet is kept on all the time so his face won't be recognized, not because he doesn't have one? Meaning Cersei sent someone else's giant head to Doran. I guess that is more plausible than a headless undead giant, but the undead part seems to point to plausibility not mattering overly much. We definitely have no reason to think Qyburn's shenanigans follow the same rules as R'hllor's resurrections.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Lady S.

[Lord of Bones]

Yes, I believe Cersei sent Doran someone else's skull. Either a disproportionately large skull from one of the dwarves brought to her that was mistaken for Tyrion, or simply a large man's skull, like Smalljon Umber, who was beheaded at the Red Wedding. Ser Robert Strong's face may be horribly disfigured from Oberyn's poison or they're just hiding his appearance but I think it's still the Mountain's brain under there.

[blixie]

We definitely have no reason to think Qyburn's shenanigans follow the same rules as R'hllor's resurrections

 

 

Yeah I see no reason to believe Qyburn's magic works like R'Holler, which is described as the "kiss of life". They are bringing a person back to life, I'd guess the black magic/necromancy of Qyburn is much more similar to that of the Other's, whose wights are merely mindless reanimated corpses. So no I don't believe Strong is the same monster The Mountain was, I think he's a Qyburn meat puppet, with or without a head/brain attached.

[Haldebrandt]

Unlike Cersei, Jaime doesn't appear to give two fucks about the death of his son.  The books explain that Cersei asked that he stay away from the kid, and thus never developed an attachment to him for fear of being busted.

 

But the show doesn't explain any of this.  So what I find curious is why no Unsullied seems to wonder why Jaime is utterly unaffected by Joff's death.

[BlackberryJam]

I can't speak for all Unsullied, just the ones I know, but most were so thrilled at Joffrey's death it never occurred to them that someone not named Cersei would mourn him.

[blixie]

Plus the first thing the Unsullied saw Jamie do was toss Bran out a window, and his overall characterization before losing his hand was cavalier and uninterested in anything besides fighting and screwing Cersei. I do appreciate NCW's attempt to convey Jamie wants to do better with/for Tommen though, that's an improvement on Jamie mostly not giving a shit about the other two any more than he did Joffrey, and his relief to be leaving KL, and the guarding of Tommen to a group of men he considers sub par for the most part.

[Dev F]

Yes, I believe Cersei sent Doran someone else's skull. Either a disproportionately large skull from one of the dwarves brought to her that was mistaken for Tyrion, or simply a large man's skull, like Smalljon Umber, who was beheaded at the Red Wedding. Ser Robert Strong's face may be horribly disfigured from Oberyn's poison or they're just hiding his appearance but I think it's still the Mountain's brain under there.

 

I dunno, when Bran apparently sees the Mountain in his dream, he's described as "a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood." That sounds like a guy who doesn't have a head underneath his helm, whether literally or figuratively.

[Which Tyler]

It's always dangerous to read dreams / prophecies too literally though. After all, nothing else is meant that way - eg the 3-eyed raven isn't actually a bird with 3 eyes, but a bloke with 1 etc

[Dev F]

True, but in this case the "thick black blood" is extremely literal (it describes the effect of the Red Viper's poison), so it would not be surprising if the "nothing inside the helm" part were as well.

 

Of course, the Mountain's armor isn't actually made out of stone, so it would also make sense if the darkness was more figurative. Still, if the novels are setting up a minor mystery about the status of Gregor's head, it seems a little weird that a prophetic dream would hint at the red herring rather than the truth.

[Lady S.]

Unlike Cersei, Jaime doesn't appear to give two fucks about the death of his son.  The books explain that Cersei asked that he stay away from the kid, and thus never developed an attachment to him for fear of being busted.

 

But the show doesn't explain any of this.  So what I find curious is why no Unsullied seems to wonder why Jaime is utterly unaffected by Joff's death.

I don't see that as much of a lapse, it's easy enough to figure Cersei couldn't let him be a real father, but that was no big loss to Jaime anyway. This is a man who already didn't like Joffrey as a baby for stealing Cersei's attention, and by ASOS when he knows what kind of guy Joffrey is, he thinks of his kids to fantasize about having Myrcella marry Joffrey once Sansa is free (not knowing Joff is already re-betrothed) to bring back Targ style sibling marriage. When he hears his eldest son is dead, he knows he should feel something but he can't even remember what Joffrey looked like, and just keeps thinking about how Cersei must need him more than ever. He thinks Joffrey probably had it coming, but I suspect that if Tommen's was the first golden shroud,  Jaime still could have written him off as "a squirt of seed in Cersei's c***".  He only really cared about his children up to that point insofar as them thinking Robert was their father was another reason to resent Cersei's marriage, when he never wanted to lie about his and Cersei's "love" to begin with. He does make an effort to get to know Tommen in AFFC and even thinks about being a father to Myrcella at some point, he knows enough to feel some connection to his flesh and blood (even Roose Bolton claims to be capable of that much because Ramsay has his eyes), but imho this is all part of his search for a new identity, he never needed much reason not to form an attachment before then. (Also there's the fact that he really, really has no shame about the twincest and wants to tell people about it, his children being obvious candidates.)

[Danny Franks]

Unlike Cersei, Jaime doesn't appear to give two fucks about the death of his son.  The books explain that Cersei asked that he stay away from the kid, and thus never developed an attachment to him for fear of being busted.

But the show doesn't explain any of this.  So what I find curious is why no Unsullied seems to wonder why Jaime is utterly unaffected by Joff's death.

 

 

Maybe they've just figured it out without needing to be told. Jaime and Joffrey never shared a scene until Jaime returned to Kings Landing, and that was a scene with Joffrey mocking Jaime for his lack of great deeds. The kid was a prick, and I don't think I'd need to be told that Jaime felt that way. Or that, as the kid's secret dad, he'd have to keep some distance.

 

We've seen Tyrion's disdain for Joffrey, and we've seen that Tyrion and Jaime are close. We've seen Tyrion's affection for Myrcella and Tommen, and we saw Jaime take a moment to ask how Tommen was doing. I don't think it's a great leap to assume that Jaime, like Tyrion, knew which kids were decent and which one was a monster.

 

I'm gonna say, I don't like the books.  I watched the show on whim up to S3 last year and then read the books because I wanted to get an idea of where it was going.  I'm not a fan.  GRRM gives multiple characters the same name (for reasons unknown).  He spends pages describing things that add nothing to the narrative.  He obviously has no idea how to wrap things up.  I'm far more interested in how the show plays this story than how GRRM plays it out.

 

 

Two of the biggest, and most concerning, issues about the books, if you ask me. He must have spent hundreds of pages describing landscapes and buildings and towns and cities and dresses and armour and coats of arms. And the further he gets into the series, the more bogged down he gets with this world building. The storylines are stagnant for a long while, then suddenly get pushed forward by some Big Event, and it makes for a very uneven reading experience, in my view.

[Haldebrandt]

Watched a interview recently where GRRM said something quite revealing: one of the biggest (and ongoing) struggles in the last two books is to get the POV characters in places to witness some critical events.  When that can't happen, then he is forced to create a one off POV character.  But he thinks that even these minor characters should be complete, real people, not just cameras recording events (my expression).  And the way he does that is to fill in the character's background in the chapter.  So there you have it.  We have several chapters that essentially serve as small biographies of red shirts, because GRRM feels that we need to really know the red shirt before we can see through his eyes....

Edited May 18, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Fen]

Watched a interview recently where GRRM said something quite revealing: one of the biggest (and ongoing) struggles in the last two books is to get the POV characters in places to witness some critical events.  When that can't happen, then he is forced to create a one off POV character.  But he thinks that even these minor characters should be complete, real people, not just cameras recording events (my expression).  And the way he does that is to fill in the character's background in the chapter.  So there you have it.  We have several chapters that essentially serve as small biographies of red shirts, because GRRM feels that we need to really know the red shirt before we can see through his eyes....

 

I really like that, to be honest.  I think that a lot of similar works focus on the big, important characters and have everyone else as collateral damage - very much the old style 'kings and bishops' school of history.  I like getting to hear what lesser characters think - and getting to know them before they get bumped off drives home the message that no loss is inconsequential.

[Mr. Simpatico]

I have no idea of the extent that any of this stuff will make it into the books but so far this episode we've been spoiled that:

Sansa will definitely be a player. This was not the meek Stockholm Syndrome Alayne who slapped Robin or who agreed (seemingly) with Baelish about hurting those who hurt those you love. I'm convinced now that the "controversial" thing GRRM said she'll do in WoW is to kill someone (or have them killed). Unless its sex with Baelish, in which case, ugh.

 

Shireen's importance. This would seem obvious since it was clear in Season 2 that they wanted to cut her out (with all that Stannis has no heir stuff with Melisandre) but later changed their minds. It has to be the Greyscale (or maybe her Targ Dragon's Blood).

 

Brienne is heading to where Sansa is and knows Arya is alive, yet has of ADWD neither is true.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Mr. Simpatico

[Mya Stone]

Brienne is heading to where Sansa is and knows Arya is alive, yet has of ADWD neither is true.

I don't know if that was the intent or if it was more to cut down all of the mindless wandering Brienne did in AFFC.

Afaik, she was headed towards the Eyrie when UnCat captured her, right?

[BlackberryJam]

I don't mind them cutting out Brienne wandering around the Riverlands.  I do wonder about them killing Biter and Rorge already.  I still think we will get Brienne in danger some time before she meets up with Lady Stoneheart.  I would have predicted that Brienne's finale scene would have been Biter for this season, but they are really slashing their way forward.

 

If we get Brienne meeting LS at the end of this Season, I have no idea what to expect for Season 5.  Unless we have Brienne pulling a Stannis style delay going from the Brotherhood to find Jaime. 

 

Shireen needed at the Wall is interesting as well.

 

 

[mac123x]

Watched a interview recently where GRRM said something quite revealing: one of the biggest (and ongoing) struggles in the last two books is to get the POV characters in places to witness some critical events.  When that can't happen, then he is forced to create a one off POV character.  But he thinks that even these minor characters should be complete, real people, not just cameras recording events (my expression).  And the way he does that is to fill in the character's background in the chapter.  So there you have it.  We have several chapters that essentially serve as small biographies of red shirts, because GRRM feels that we need to really know the red shirt before we can see through his eyes....

 

So that explains the incredible tedium of some of the Prologue chapters.  Honestly when he went on for dozens of pages with that warging redshirt (I don't remember the name at all or any of the stuff that happened) I almost put the book down.  Sadly, if he was a witness to some important event, I don't remember what it was because I was so fucking bored I skip the entire thing on re-read.

 

I think another one of his problems (ironically) is that he used to be a TV series writer.  Writing a TV episode in a series with no defined end-point is vastly different than writing a book.

 

 

Sansa will definitely be a player. This was not the meek Stockholm Syndrome Alayne who slapped Robin or who agreed (seemingly) with Baelish about hurting those who hurt those you love.

 

I never got a Stockholm Syndrome vibe from Alayne.  She figured out that Lyn Corbray was Littlefinger's mole in the Lord's Declarant, she became adept at managing (i.e., manipulating) poor dumb Sweetrobin, she bought into Petyr's plan to marry her to Harry the Heir, etc.  I always saw her as being Littlefinger's apprentice. and finally finding out something she's good and useful at.

 

Unfortunately, GRRM has set up her inevitable kidnapping for ransom with the sell-swords Petyr hired, one of whom Brienne met while wandering aimlessly.  Hopefully she won't be just a piece of baggage but will have developed some skills she can use against them.

[Haldebrandt]

So that explains the incredible tedium of some of the Prologue chapters.  Honestly when he went on for dozens of pages with that warging redshirt (I don't remember the name at all or any of the stuff that happened) I almost put the book down.  Sadly, if he was a witness to some important event, I don't remember what it was because I was so fucking bored I skip the entire thing on re-read.

 

Lol. While I can't relate to Fen's love for these characters on first read, I will admit that they are far more enjoyable on re-reads, much like the rest of the backstory, etc.  It's just that when you are tearing through the books for the first time because you are mostly concerned with you favorite characters and you want to know "what happens next," these people are insufferable. Even so, I've always loved the prologues and epilogues.  They feature the most important red shirts.

 

I think another one of his problems (ironically) is that he used to be a TV series writer.  Writing a TV episode in a series with no defined end-point is vastly different than writing a book.

Back in season 1, I used to get annoyed at the assumption that the GRRM-penned episodes would be great.  Everyone was so convinced that because he wrote the books, he could write a great episode.  I vigorously disagreed: I don't think author are the best judge of how to adapt their work for other media.  I ended up watching the thing with great skepticism and was shocked to find it my favorite episode of that season (even after Baelor aired), and to this day, one of the best in four seasons.  And then there was Blackwater.  And then it turned out that everything that was wrong with The Bear and the Maiden Fair was added by D&D.  So, whatever one may think of GRRM, he is excellent at adapting his own show for TV...

[Joystickenvy]

I don't mind them cutting out Brienne wandering around the Riverlands.  I do wonder about them killing Biter and Rorge already.  I still think we will get Brienne in danger some time before she meets up with Lady Stoneheart.  I would have predicted that Brienne's finale scene would have been Biter for this season, but they are really slashing their way forward.

 

If we get Brienne meeting LS at the end of this Season, I have no idea what to expect for Season 5.  Unless we have Brienne pulling a Stannis style delay going from the Brotherhood to find Jaime. 

 

Shireen needed at the Wall is interesting as well.

I wondered about this as well. I can't remember if Brienne told Lady SH about her quest to find her daughter( s ) in the books or not, but I guess Arya being alive is some new info she could share. Unless of course she only gets to say "a word"