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Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?


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I think they'd definitely be better off just having Shae packed off to Essos, and Tyrion being told she's gone "wherever whores go". And they could have Cersei's new informant girl be the one who damns Tyrion at the trial. It wouldn't mean as much, because I don't think Tyrion has ever met her (and this is where they would have been better off not killing Ros, because she could have fitted into this role quite nicely), but I think it would still work. She can then be the one in Tywin's bed, and the one Tyrion kills.

Who cares about Tysha? No one that I know of, including Tyrion. Does anyone even remember Tysha, in terms of the show? Shae is the relationship people have invested in, I think, and giving Tyrion some purpose to go east other than just having to leave Kings Landing would probably give fans a reason to root for him in season 5.

But of course, I'm approaching this from the selfish direction of hoping that they do something similar with Ygritte, and just have her fill Val's role, and not die in the battle at The Wall. I expect I'll be disappointed on both counts, because I can't imagine D&D passing up the opportunity to kill more characters that people like.

Edited by Danny Franks
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IMO, the Tysha story has to come into play, because we have to see Tyrion turn against all the members of his family.  We have #1.  Cersei accusing him of murdering Joff, #2 Tywin sleeping with Shae and then the whole 'wherever whores go' (whang!)and #3.  To me anyway, the ultimate soul-crusher.  Jaime confessing to Tyrion that Tysha wasn't in fact a whore at all, meaning that she was just a nice young girl and really did love Tyrion.  Tyrion already hates his father and despises Cersei, but up until this point, Jaime is and always has been his friend. 

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ElizaD, everything you described is quite possible, and from my perspective, it would be awful.  I really see Tyrion on the Show and Tyrion in the Books as having very different essential natures, and I much prefer the "re-imagined" Tyrion on the Show.  (Kind of like how I much prefer the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica).  If they go the route you described -- which would be more consistent with the Books -- I will find that very troubling because the whole "bitchy woman scorned" explanation does a disservice to Shae as a character, and to women everywhere.  I think you're right, they could go that route.  What I am desperately hoping the Show does instead is portray her as under incredible coercion by Twyin and Cersei.  Cracking under the pressure of torture is human, understandable, and tragic -- as painful as it would be, I certainly would not blame her and hope the rest of the audience would understand too.  I hope Tyrion does not kill her, and perhaps doesn't see her after her testimony at trial.  I hope the Show presents Shae as being presented with a deal -- testify against Tyrion and he goes to the wall and lives, and she returns to Essos and lives, or refuse and they both die painful deaths after much torture.  Whether the Lannisters would be good to their word is highly uncertain, but she'd probably figure there was no better alternative than to take the chance.  So Shae disappears and we don't know what happened to her, and Tyrion is merely told that she went "where whores go," which could mean she's dead, but could also mean she's alive somewhere.  Having her testify under duress to save Tyrion and herself, but to act convincingly like she really means it, would be a very close mirror of what Tyrion did on the Show by telling her she was a whore who was unfit to bear his children so as to persuade her to flee for her own safety.  There would be truth to both of their hurtful words to one another, yet the deeper truth is that at heart, neither of them cares about those things, and they want to be together.  Kind of a vicious, painful "Gift of the Magi" thing. 

If the Show goes that route, then if Tyrion manages to survive the story long enough, I hope they are reunited and both realize that they were victims of Cersei and Tywin, but that they also both each failed to get out while they could due to foolish pride (Tyrion's belief that he could play the game and come out on top and Shae's belief that she and Tyrion could actually fight Tywin and Cersei and win).  I would find that infinitely more satisfying than Tyrion's misogyny in the Books.  Since they bothered to flesh Shae out in endearing ways, and indicate that she has genuine feelings for Tyrion, I really hope they do something like this, instead of just the more trite and sexist woman scorned, poor Tyrion has no friends in the world, surely Shae must be strangeled, blah blah.  You're definitely right, it could go that way, but I hope not. 

On an unrelated note, I am delighted that Jaime is sparring with Bron.  This has wonderful potential, and will be much more entertaining than having Jaime talk to a hostile hangman who is mute, sorry as I am to hear about the actor's cancer.

Edited by lawless
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IMO, the Tysha story has to come into play, because we have to see Tyrion turn against all the members of his family. 

To me anyway, the ultimate soul-crusher.  Jaime confessing to Tyrion that Tysha wasn't in fact a whore at all, meaning that she was just a nice young girl and really did love Tyrion.  Tyrion already hates his father and despises Cersei, but up until this point, Jaime is and always has been his friend. 

I very much agree with you but with one small exception. Let me explain myself:

I have no idea how the dynamic between the two would change so drastically as we've seen in the books without introducing the Tysha story (from love and brotherly affection to hate and resentment). The only possible way Jaime and Tyrion would have such a fall out is for Tysha's story to become somehow consolidated with the show!Shae story. Which would require Jamie to somehow do harm to her or conceal someone doing harm to Shae.

I wonder if this be also the reason Bronn with his big mouth stayed around to spar with the new LC of the KG? or is it just the sparring... I mean if Bronn somehow told Jaime about Tyrion trying to sneak off Shae to someplace safe, which in turn told Tywin/Cersei?! Could THAT work?

Edited by TormundsWoman
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Who cares about Tysha? No one that I know of, including Tyrion. Does anyone even remember Tysha, in terms of the show?

I think that this is a big problem.  Most of the show watchers I know can't really recall that information.  Even if they did, the route they have taken with Shae, a genuine relationship instead of an example of Tyrion's prostitute hang-up, means that its importance has been rather lessened.  Book!Tyrion's delusions about Shae are painful to read - you get a proper sense of how screwed up he is.  That's not been remotely the case with show!Tyrion.  I'm going to be really interested to see how they approach this.

On an unrelated note, I wish Willas Tyrell actually existed in the show universe and that we somehow got to meet him.

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What I am desperately hoping the Show does instead is portray her as under incredible coercion by Twyin and Cersei.  Cracking under the pressure of torture is human, understandable, and tragic -- as painful as it would be, I certainly would not blame her and hope the rest of the audience would understand too.

Before the S4 premiere I was hoping that they would show some of Shae's perspective, the injustice and danger of her situation and not only Tyrion's, but after they had Tyrion send her away in a non-book addition that makes him look squeaky clean and sets things up for Shae to blamed for staying/being captured and bitterly testifying against the man who broke up with her, I don't think it's going to happen. The show removed all of Sansa's role in her escape, making her look more passive and ignorant than in the books, presumably so that Littlefinger can make a shock reappearance in 4x03 (IMO, Joffrey's death would have been enough of a shock twist and Sansa's escape plan would have added tension to the mostly comic wedding feast): that makes me think they might not show Shae until she testifies in 4x06 or 4x07 and then she's next seen in Tywin's bed (there was a trailer shot that must be from that scene).

Overall, after three seasons I have the impression that the show isn't very interested in moral complexity beyond the basic idea of "it's alright if good people do bad things, they have to, and actually it's not that bad but cool, mature and edgy." So Arya killing a man in 4x01 was a badass moment rather than something more complicated (though he got the death sentence he deserved for murdering a child, Arya's pleasure in the act was a sign of her trauma and not a purely uplifting counter to Tywin's destruction of the Stark sword). In the same way I expect Tyrion's killing of Shae and Tywin to be triumphant, with some "poor Tyrion, he's suffering (but he made them pay and life goes on)" rather than "damn, this is awful, Tyrion is heading down a dark path."  I feel that the show is less of a drama or a character study than the books and more of a comic book movie or soap opera that delivers excitement, twists and larger than life heroes doing big things, and sometimes that really frustrates me, no matter how much I love the soap elements when they're done well (Cersei and Margaery's different orders about the food, for example).

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Oh God, why did they change Jaime & Cersei's scene into a rape? It was squicky enough as it was originally written; what point did this serve? Did they think Jaime became too sympathetic after last season, and so they needed to make him a rapist as well?

Yeah, I am completely NOT HAPPY with that at all. We really don't need Cersei being sympathetic here. She's already lost her son, we have a level of empathy for her on that one...to change it to Jaime forcing himself on her? And having her protest the entire time? Do. Not. Like. 

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Oh God, why did they change Jaime & Cersei's scene into a rape? It was squicky enough as it was originally written; what point did this serve? Did they think Jaime became too sympathetic after last season, and so they needed to make him a rapist as well?

I am actually wondering what WAS the point of it. I thought Jaime is supposed to be redeeming himself from throwing a child out of the window. How black you want him to be?! That was a bad change IMO.

OK, I liked the Show!Davos change from the book. Him and Stannis as well as his relationship with Shireen. Giving him an Iron Bank arc for financing, seems a good idea.

I also loved the Tywin & Oberyn exchange. The fact that Tywin recognizes Dorne as a power to be wary of is huge IMO. Through him one learns without heavy exposition about Oberyn's training at the Citadel, about how the Targs could not conquer Dorne even with dragons on their side. They portray the Martells very well through limited screen time, if you ask me. That's a good change for me.

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OK, I liked the Show!Davos change from the book. Him and Stannis as well as his relationship with Shireen. Giving him an Iron Bank arc for financing, seems a good idea.

I also loved the Tywin & Oberyn exchange. The fact that Tywin recognizes Dorne as a power to be wary of is huge IMO. Through him one learns without heavy exposition about Oberyn's training at the Citadel, about how the Targs could not conquer Dorne even with dragons on their side. They portray the Martells very well through limited screen time, if you ask me. That's a good change for me.

Having Davos go to the Iron Bank is a great idea, except the timeline since S3 now makes no sense whatsoever. S3 ended with Mel saying they needed to sail North right away to assist the Night's Watch. Now, they're sitting around doing nothing for three episodes. 

The Oberyn/Tywin scene was great (as was the Tywin/Tommen scene), but the sexposition again gets in the way of the narrative. There's a lot more to Oberyn than just drunken orgies (I'm glad they got the Citadel in at least), but of course that's what they focus on. Because HBO!

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I loved Pod and Tyrion, as well. 

I also loved Tywin schooling Tommen on how to be a king. 

And Oberyn/Tywin. That was a scene fleshed out from a brief statement Oberyn made to Tyrion - and I loved the dynamic. 

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Pod and Tyrion was beautiful. 

The more I think about Jaime/Cersei, the angrier I get. It completely changes the dynamics of their relationship. Instead of being a deconstruction of the epic, star-crossed lovers (where the only truly romantic relationship in the story is Jaime/Cersei), now it looks like:

1. The relationship probably began with Jaime raping Cersei when they were still children.

2. Jaime is now a lifelong abuser of his sister, and her 'consent' is really just Stockholm syndrome

3. Her monologue in Blackwater about how people treated Jaime differently now sounds like it's about people turning a blind eye to his abuse.

This was probably unintentional, because Alex Graves apparently thinks "Stop, this is wrong" is pillow talk. 

Edited by Independent George
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I'm just appalled at the way the scene between Jaime and Cersei played out.  I didn't think they could do anything more out of character for him after they had him kill his cousin back in S2, but raping Cersei is far worse, and makes even less sense in light of where he is supposed to be in his arc by now.  Just ridiculous.

 

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There's a lot more to Oberyn than just drunken orgies

I love Oberyn, but I'm not sure there is much more to him than: Killing Lannisters (aka avenging Elia) and Getting Booty (with Ellaria) That's pretty much all he cares about. It's actually what I like about him, though it doesn't serve him well in the Game. 

Having Jaimie rape Cersei is awful and like so many of their choices just *bizarre*, because yes he's supposed to be on his way to redemption. If it is just to make Cersei more sympathetic through her coming trials well, shit, that's even more gross. Why can't she just be what she is in the books: a woman whom we sympathize with in as much as she's a woman in a society that limits her, and yet and still hate her because she's manipulative and hateful, and yes dumb.

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Oh God, why did they change Jaime & Cersei's scene into a rape? It was squicky enough as it was originally written; what point did this serve? Did they think Jaime became too sympathetic after last season, and so they needed to make him a rapist as well?

I actually didn't find that change to be particularly drastic.  In the book, she initially tells him "no" and tries to fight him off, but it's kind of minimized because it's from Jaime's perspective, and he thinks she's just trying to make him work for it or something.

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I actually didn't find that change to be particularly drastic.  In the book, she initially tells him "no" and tries to fight him off, but it's kind of minimized because it's from Jaime's perspective, and he thinks she's just trying to make him work for it or something.

I just went back through the book and re-read the scene, and it is in fact *very* different.  Cersei's protest in the book is because she doesn't want them to be discovered, not purely because she thinks it's wrong in front of Joffrey's body, and after initially expressing that and worrying about the septons or Tywin discovering them, she says several things that are clear indications of consent, including "do me now".  It is not Jaime's perspective being biased, she verbally expresses that she wants him to do it.  The scene in the show is a major deviation that I think further alters Jaime's characterization in a very negative way.

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I actually didn't find that change to be particularly drastic.  In the book, she initially tells him "no" and tries to fight him off, but it's kind of minimized because it's from Jaime's perspective, and he thinks she's just trying to make him work for it or something.

The entire description is quoted in the episode thread:

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.”

 

That's pretty dramatically different from "Stop, this is wrong.".

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To be honest when I initially read the book I was less concerned about any issues of consent or even the incest thing and more TOTALLY FREAKED OUT BY THE LOCATION, like, you have an entire crypt/edifice/castle to do this sort of thing and I don't care how long it's been since you saw each other WHY THERE?  

After I reread it, I realized that Cersei and I for arguably the only times in our lives were on the same page: it's not the consent that's the issue, it's the location (well, that, and Cersei thinks that they could be caught.) The show managed to add consent issues on top of WHY THERE ACK for me.

I'm wondering if when they originally blocked or even filmed the scene they had a few more seconds that did shift to her showing some form of consent, to make it slightly less messed up? There's a director interview that seems to suggest he didn't see the problem, and given that this was the same episode that had Oberyn giving us the "Have as much awesome sex with all genders as you can before you get old" speech, it seems a weird thing to leave out, since consentual dialogue was there in the book. Or maybe like me the writers/directors/actors were so horrified by the CORPSE RIGHT THERE that they got distracted by all other considerations.

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And, the Onion A/V Club has an entire essay devoted to the rape scene.

Rape of Thrones: Why are the Game Of Thrones showrunners rewriting the books into misogyny?

Sunday night’s episode of Game Of Thrones took an even darker turn than usual: Jaime Lannister, who has transitioned from one of the story’s villains to one of its heroes, takes the opportunity of his son’s death to rape his sister and lover, Cersei—in the Westerosi equivalent of a church, while Joffrey’s corpse is laid out on the slab. It’s hyperbolically awful—a violation of Cersei’s agency, a violation of the sanctity of the grand sept, a violation of the reverence that ought to be provided to a corpse.
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"do me now."

Wow, I was so squicked by the location and presence of a corpse in the scene that I overlooked this line.  Does Cersei, Queen-Regent of the Andals and the First Men, rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, and so on and so on, really say "do me now."  Heh,  Wonder what the translation is into High Valyerian.  Valar Domenow-us?

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Wow, I was so squicked by the location and presence of a corpse in the scene that I overlooked this line.  Does Cersei, Queen-Regent of the Andals and the First Men, rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, and so on and so on, really say "do me now."  Heh,  Wonder what the translation is into High Valyerian.  Valar Domenow-us?

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

it's truly a lovely scene, isn't it?

Anyway I think the consent means the scene is more OOC for Cersei, since Jaime is the only person she ever enjoyed sex with. Jaime would never rape anyone else, but Cersei? Plenty of people already think him capable of one day murderering her. Even in AFFC/ADWD when he thinks she's a crazy whore he still wants to fuck her. I can buy that in his mind sex with Cersei could never be rape, though it's still a horrible change.

But then I disagree that anything in Jaime's arc so far really constitutes redemption and I didn't think killing Alton was much in the way of character assasination. That guy was a cousin farther removed than Robert was to Rhaegar and no one calls the Usurper a kinslayer. I think most people who aren't the Karstarks draw a line somewhere about what kind of kinship matters.

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I never saw Jaime as a "good guy" in the books. I saw him more as a guy who has done some pretty shitty stuff that becomes more sympathetic as his story progresses and is at his least sympathetic when he's around Cersei. And I don't mean that as in it's Cersei's fault that he does stuff like throw kids out of windows and coerce/rape (book vs show) his sister into having sex by their dead son's corpse, but rather that when he's around her he seems to regress to his worst self.

So, as a result, I don't see the changes as "character assassination" either. Plus as squicky as rape scenes are, it's still kinda better than, "do me now." Not George's most eloquent writing that.

Edited by Joystickenvy
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Eh, I don't think Jaime's obsessive lust for his sister is supposed to represent the chivalric love of a good knight, but I always enjoyed the twistedness of their relationship. I'm disappointed by the rape on the show because it's an unneeded change and rape as a plot device is lazy writing (and I just can't imagine preferring a scene to be rape), but I think I'd also be disappointed if Jaime wasn't the valonqar in the end. So I'm weird like that.

Edited by Lady S.
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I never saw Jaime as a "good guy" in the books. I saw him more as a guy who has done some pretty shitty stuff that becomes more sympathetic as his story progresses and is at his least sympathetic when he's around Cersei. And I don't mean that as in it's Cersei's fault that he does stuff like throw kids out of windows and coerce/rape (book vs show) his sister into having sex by their dead son's corpse, but rather that when he's around her he seems to regress to his worst self.

So, as a result, I don't see the changes as "character assassination" either. Plus as squicky as rape scenes are, it's still kinda better than, "do me now." Not George's most eloquent writing that.

"No, no, no. Yes." from Dany's wedding night was hardly great writing either. On that occasion, the rape element made sense because Drogo didn't see Dany as a person in her own right, and Dany spent the next however many weeks or months effectively being raped by him, before she figured out how to take back a semblance of power. 

On this occasion, I'd say that Jaime raping Cersei was the result of D&D's obsession with having everyone be grey, because 'GRRM's characters are never black and white', and they feared that Jaime was becoming too sympathetic for their tastes (as messed up as I think those tastes sometimes are). I would say that, if not for the director apparently thinking that Cersei 'wanted it really'. That is messed up. But I struggle to believe that no one, from writer to director to editor to actors, ever stopped and said, 'this is rape, yeah?', so I have to conclude that is what they were going for.

What is annoying now is that the increased estrangement between them will be seen as Jaime's fault, rather than Cersei just being repulsed by him. Great.

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"No, no, no. Yes." from Dany's wedding night was hardly great writing either. On that occasion, the rape element made sense because Drogo didn't see Dany as a person in her own right, and Dany spent the next however many weeks or months effectively being raped by him, before she figured out how to take back a semblance of power. 

On this occasion, I'd say that Jaime raping Cersei was the result of D&D's obsession with having everyone be grey, because 'GRRM's characters are never black and white', and they feared that Jaime was becoming too sympathetic for their tastes (as messed up as I think those tastes sometimes are). I would say that, if not for the director apparently thinking that Cersei 'wanted it really'. That is messed up. But I struggle to believe that no one, from writer to director to editor to actors, ever stopped and said, 'this is rape, yeah?', so I have to conclude that is what they were going for.

What is annoying now is that the increased estrangement between them will be seen as Jaime's fault, rather than Cersei just being repulsed by him. Great.

The weird thing is that from listening to commentaries and reading interviews, I know the writers really like Jaime and think he's not too bad. I'm worried they think making him a rapist still leaves as a fun not bad bad guy, like Jaime killing NotCleos or The Hound robbing a random farmer. They made a deliberate choice to change the scene but I doubt there'll be much impact at on the show. Next week will have Jaime sending Brienne on her quest and they probably expect the audience to be uplifted and not care that even Brienne can't save a rapist's honor.

I definitely agree about Dany and Drogo, that was hardly even a change. It just made the issue less confused instead of making it look like Drogo cared about consent for one special night. Dany very much did fall in love with her rapist. But people love Drogo for reasons I've never understood so that could feed into thinking adding another rape between main characters is no big deal.

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On this occasion, I'd say that Jaime raping Cersei was the result of D&D's obsession with having everyone be grey, because 'GRRM's characters are never black and white', and they feared that Jaime was becoming too sympathetic for their tastes (as messed up as I think those tastes sometimes are). I would say that, if not for the director apparently thinking that Cersei 'wanted it really'. That is messed up. But I struggle to believe that no one, from writer to director to editor to actors, ever stopped and said, 'this is rape, yeah?', so I have to conclude that is what they were going for.

I never saw Jamie as sympathetic - conflicted, interesting, arrogant, and hard certainly but not sympathetic.  To me, Jamie is a ruthless man who occasionally suffers from bouts of nobility (i.e., saving Brienne, preventing Pia's rape). 

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The Oberyn/Tywin scene was great (as was the Tywin/Tommen scene), but the sexposition again gets in the way of the narrative. There's a lot more to Oberyn than just drunken orgies (I'm glad they got the Citadel in at least), but of course that's what they focus on. Because HBO!

I read it as “Oberyn gets things done, even whilst being a hedonistic horndog.”  Potato, potahto?

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I never saw Jamie as sympathetic - conflicted, interesting, arrogant, and hard certainly but not sympathetic.  To me, Jamie is a ruthless man who occasionally suffers from bouts of nobility (i.e., saving Brienne, preventing Pia's rape).

I largely agree with your characterizaiton of him, but I did find his story in ACoK/ASoS one where I started to sympathize with him to a degree,if not to the point where I saw him as redemptive and heroic. We find out the most noble act he ever committed, killing Aerys before he burned Kings Landing, only earned him the scorn and derision of the realm, and the titles of Kingslayer and Oathbreaker. He's imprisoned and his sword hand (more or less his entire identity) is cut off, and he's separated form Cersei, the rest of his identity. He is no longer the man he was before he left Kings Landing, his looks and health are also gone or at least muted. Then he comes to admire and respect Brienne, and is so moved by her example of honor and loyalty, that he saves her form certain rape/murder at Harrenhal.

At the same time, he's still largely unremorseful about the things he did and the person he was before the war, and while he tells himself he'll do what he can for the Stark girls/honor his word to Catelyn and Brienne, he's mostly preoccupied with reuniting with Cersei and outright marrying her so they can rule like the Targs with their incestuous line. But again he's disabused of that fantasy and comes to see Cersei for what she is and or at least what she has become: a cold, paranoid, drunk. I think it's natural to feel sympathy for people who "lose", and Jamie has dealt with a lot of losing in a relative short period of time, but that losing doesn't make him actively good or a hero.

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1. The relationship probably began with Jaime raping Cersei when they were still children.

2. Jaime is now a lifelong abuser of his sister, and her 'consent' is really just Stockholm syndrome

 

I hate the change of this scene but I just don't think you can conclude these two things from the changes

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Someone asked GRRM his thoughts on the changes to the scene, and here's his reply:

 

 

 

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

 

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Having Davos go to the Iron Bank is a great idea, except the timeline since S3 now makes no sense whatsoever. S3 ended with Mel saying they needed to sail North right away to assist the Night's Watch. Now, they're sitting around doing nothing for three episodes. 

I did try to reconcile the Iron Bank arc with what Mel strongly suggested last season. I thought that they tried to emphasize with the Stannis & Davos discussion about the lack of funds that they cannot really do anything at all (no army, no houses, less than 100 soldiers between all of them): whether going to the Wall or try to retake Kings' Landing or whatever else he could possibly think.

And the other thing I took away from the whole Dragonstone team interaction is that this news of Joff's death made Stannis reassess his actions. Not that Joff's death would make Tommen less than a foe should he sit the Iron Throne. Honestly, that's the best I could come up with. Gave it a shot.

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The dialog made it clear that Stannis needed men, so that explains why he isn't furiously heading North.  So there is nothing wrong per se with the Iron Bank development.

The problem is that the dialog also inexplicably focused on retaking the throne rather than going North, suggesting that the former was the more immediate goal -- which contradicts last season finale.  Go figure.

Edited by Haldebrandt
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I largely agree with your characterizaiton of him, but I did find his story in ACoK/ASoS one where I started to sympathize with him to a degree,if not to the point where I saw him as redemptive and heroic. We find out the most noble act he ever committed, killing Aerys before he burned Kings Landing, only earned him the scorn and derision of the realm, and the titles of Kingslayer and Oathbreaker. He's imprisoned and his sword hand (more or less his entire identity) is cut off, and he's separated form Cersei, the rest of his identity. He is no longer the man he was before he left Kings Landing, his looks and health are also gone or at least muted. Then he comes to admire and respect Brienne, and is so moved by her example of honor and loyalty, that he saves her form certain rape/murder at Harrenhal.

At the same time, he's still largely unremorseful about the things he did and the person he was before the war, and while he tells himself he'll do what he can for the Stark girls/honor his word to Catelyn and Brienne, he's mostly preoccupied with reuniting with Cersei and outright marrying her so they can rule like the Targs with their incestuous line. But again he's disabused of that fantasy and comes to see Cersei for what she is and or at least what she has become: a cold, paranoid, drunk. I think it's natural to feel sympathy for people who "lose", and Jamie has dealt with a lot of losing in a relative short period of time, but that losing doesn't make him actively good or a hero.

I don't disagree with your statement - I can certainly empathize with Jamie and understand that he's trying to do good (maybe to atone for his past deeds), it doesn't necessarily make him sympathetic.

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I usually take GRRM's words on the show with a gran of salt because he's not going to criticize it too much, but he does talk about how some characters are different. So it's interesting that he talks purely in terms of timeline and not the spiel about how the books are his and the show is D&D's. But, again, grain of salt, he's not really gonna talk trash about the cash cow anyway.

ETA: Gods, I thought his initial statements were really unfortunate, but the new Vulture interview with Alex Graves are disgusting.   

You say it “becomes consensual by the end.” I rewatched the scene this morning, and it ends with Cersei saying, “It’s not right, it’s not right,” and Jaime on top of her saying, “I don’t care. I don’t care.” It leaves some room for debate. Were you involved with cutting the scene? Was there a longer version of the scene that might have read more like they were both consenting?
    It’s my cut of the scene. The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.

    ....

    She needs Jaime to deal with Tyrion. That’s really what that scene is about. It’s her saying, “I want you to kill him,” and Jaime saying, “I don’t see why I would kill him.” That’s probably the main reason she consents, is to pull him in, because she’s results-oriented, period. The only man she really feels any respect and admiration for, and authority for, is her father. Beyond that, she loves her children. I think — and I say this personally — she’s largely using Jaime and he hasn’t figured it out yet.

    Same question for Jaime. Was this a new, different side of him emerging?
    Well, his change occurred with Brienne. Jaime, we’ve come to find out, wanted to be and would like to be a good knight but was raised in a family where he was not allowed to be that. In fact, quite the opposite. That’s made him extremely smart and dangerous but not fulfilled, and he found in Brienne a soul mate that he’ll never recover from. It’s been fun working with Nikolaj, following the minutiae of where Jaime is, and following this idea that in fact Jaime has not only never been allowed to be who he really is, but Jaime is traumatized by the night he became the kingslayer. His only way to his true self is possibly through his brother, but the door is opened by his exposure to Brienne who if nothing else is a powerful, noble knight. A lot of what we were doing in season three is watching him not only break down but be unable to deny how much he respected her — and respecting a woman, respecting a woman who is good and not trying to control him, respecting a woman who’s the best knight he’s ever seen, it was too much for him to handle.

 

Poor Jaime, used by his sister and not allowed to be the good knight he truly is. Brienne is a lucky woman to have found such a soulmate.

Edited by Lady S.
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My beef isn't so much that it (clearly) comes off as a rape, but that the writers and director are so stubbornly denying it. Own up to it, guys. Otherwise admit you made a mistake in how it was written/filmed.

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Excellent analysis: http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/04/game-of-thrones-rape/361011/

It’s possible that Benioff and Weiss, after spending the better part of two seasons making Jaime more likable, have decided to take his character down a darker path than the one he follows in Martin’s novels. I haven’t seen beyond this episode, so I can’t say for certain. But given the responses by Graves and Coster-Waldau, it seems more likely that everyone involved somehow believed they’d constructed a scene that was more unpleasant than the book’s but still at least moderately ambiguous, rather than the not-at-all-ambiguous scene that viewers saw. How does a mistake like this occur? My best guess is that Benioff and Weiss indulged in their longstanding penchant for ramping up the sex and violence of their source material, and this time they did it so carelessly that even they didn’t recognize where it had taken them. . . .

My assumption is that the showrunners took a look at the scene in the book and thought, well, this is depraved. (Which it is: two twins having sex over their son’s corpse.) They further assumed that we viewers already knew that the Jaime-Cersei relationship was grotesque at its core. (Which it also is: decades-long incest resulting in three children, while Cersei secretly aborts pregnancies by her husband.) And they decided—as they so often seem to where sex and violence are concerned—let’s take this up to 11. . . .

The problem is that in this instance Benioff and Weiss’s alteration wasn’t merely one of degree, but one of kind.  . . . this tweak didn’t make [the Cersei/Jaime relationship] wrong-er or more transgressive. Instead it fundamentally altered impressions of Jaime, who had until now gradually emerged as one of the most sympathetic characters on the show. I sincerely doubt—though again, I could be wrong—that this is what Benioff and Weiss intended to do.

Edited by Haldebrandt
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From an interview with E! Online:

"Graves continued, "Jaime is still trying to believe as hard as he possibly can that he's in love with Cersei. He can't admit that he is traumatized by his family and he's been forced his whole life to be something he doesn't want to be. What he is—but has to deny—is he is actually the good knight, like Brienne."

Ironically, it seems that book readers who share that view, or one similar of Jaime (I'm not one) are the most upset about the change. He does also say he doesn't enjoy filming "forced sex" in that interview, even though he got a huge kick out of the idea of Joff being there "watching the whole thing," so did he slip up there or did it suddenly become subtly consentual when people started complaining about the change?

Because it doesn't alter my view of Jaime overly much.....the sept scene was kind of an ewwwww ok this guy is still gross punch in the gut after he started to grow on me during his adventures with Brienne even without the rape element, I don't have an issue with the change from the book, but I'm not liking how this director is trying to excuse it or the way he seems to remove Jaime's responsibility for his own choices.

Edited by Joystickenvy
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Well, I for one totally missed that Cersei was kissing him back on the show.  But I interpreted it as rape for other reasons:

1. It starts off on a completely negative note, with Jaime saying that Cersei is a horrible person.

2. Jaime is physically violent with Cersei. In the one scene we saw with the two of them together sexually before this, he wasn't violent with Cersei, just with Bran, and she was a willing participant.  So we had no in show indication that violence is their kink.

3. Jaime rips Cersei's clothing and shoves her to the floor.

4. Cersei keeps saying, "No, no, no," and it sounds as if she is crying. On a rewatch it looks as if she's trying to push him away and calm him down at the same time.

5. Later on, in this same episode, Ellaria Sand grabs a man and kisses him. When she realizes he isn't enjoying it, she stops and heads back to the other people in the orgy, even though this man has been paid to have sex with her and Oberyn.

The contrasting scenes made this look like rape to me.

Edited by quarks
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Because it doesn't alter my view of Jaime overly much.....the sept scene was kind of an ewwwww ok this guy is still gross punch in the gut after he started to grow on me during his adventures with Brienne even without the rape element, I don't have an issue with the change from the book, but I'm not liking how this director is trying to excuse it or the way he seems to remove Jaime's responsibility for his own choices.

Yeah, I disagree with taking away Cersei's consent for the hell of it, but I thought the sept scene in book is an important character moment for Jaime. No matter how long he's been away, is there any reason he can't wait a few more minutes to take this to a bedroom? Joffrey was a little shit, but I'd think someone who was loved Cersei so much could care about her grief. But Jaime has an obsession instead of pure love, and their relationship was selfish from both sides. Jaime has free will and exercises power when he wants to, he's not an innocent victim of Cersei's evil vagina. The idea that he's just not being allowed to be a good person and needs a love interest who can act as his conscience makes me want to barf.

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Because it doesn't alter my view of Jaime overly much..

I do NOT see Jamie as a good person. I do NOT see Jamie as a good knight. I do  NOT see Jamie as a Hero. But I also do not see Book Jamie as a rapist, it meant something to me that he had never raped anyone, it meant something to me that he was determined to prevent the rape/murder of Brienne. I can not feel exactly the same about a character who didn't rape his sister as I do about one who did. I can't tomatoe tomatoh that. BooK Jamie multiple incestuous hook ups 1 attempted murder 0 rapes, Show Jamie 1 kinslaying, 1 attempted murder, 1 consensual incestuous sex scene, and one rape. One rap list is clearly worse than the other even if neither are "good". 

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Yeah, I disagree with taking away Cersei's consent for the hell of it, but I thought the sept scene in book is an important character moment for Jaime. No matter how long he's been away, is there any reason he can't wait a few more minutes to take this to a bedroom? Joffrey was a little shit, but I'd think someone who was loved Cersei so much could care about her grief. But Jaime has an obsession instead of pure love, and their relationship was selfish from both sides. Jaime has free will and exercises power when he wants to, he's not an innocent victim of Cersei's evil vagina. The idea that he's just not being allowed to be a good person and needs a love interest who can act as his conscience makes me want to barf.

Agreed. Jaime may think he loves Cersei, but I've always seen it as more of an obsession. I think Brienne is someone he could love, if he'd get over himself long enough, because he respects her in a way that he has never respected Cersei, but she should probably run the other way.

I think I'm going to start a punk band called 'Cersei's Evil Vagina.' Perhaps we can open for Pussy Riot, if they're not in prison.

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Anyone else think that a 2h HBO flick (or 3-4h miniseries) about the Robert rebellion would be fantastic?  I trust GRRM to write a truly badass script.  Imagine the Trident, the drama during the sack of King's Landing, the siege of Storm's End, and then Tower of Joy, which is really the part that would lend an epic dimension to the story.  Oh and also the smuggling of Dany and Viserys out. 

GRRM knows Jon's parentage is an open secret among readers anyway, I doubt there is anything to lose by bringing viewers into it.  Many of them are already there anyway: just the other day, an Unsullied friend asked me whether Jon was the son of the Mad King, which is a reasonably close guess.

I've always loved prequels, though they seem to be quite hard to pull off since very few of them turn out well (e.g., the Star Wars abominations).  This one would be great as long as they don't try to shoehorn unnecessary fan favorites like Tyrion into it, and resist the impulse to wink-wink reference every single element of the series.

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Anyone else think that a 2h HBO flick (or 3-4h miniseries) about the Robert rebellion would be fantastic?  I trust GRRM to write a truly badass script.  Imagine the Trident, the drama during the sack of King's Landing, the siege of Storm's End, and then Tower of Joy, which is really the part that would lend an epic dimension to the story.  Oh and also the smuggling of Dany and Viserys out.

 

Yesssss. I find the backstory more interesting than much of the current story. For that alone it was worth it to read the books.

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I doubt that HBO will not revisit the ASoIaF universe after GoT ends since the show is such a huge success that anything related to it will basically print money. There are lots of stories still left to be told (like Robert's rebellion and the Dunk & Egg stories).

Of course if they make prequels there's always the danger of the writers and/or producers trying to put in as many references as possible while forgetting to tell an actual story. Fanwank and continuity porn is nice, but too much of it can ruin a good story (like the aforementioned Star Wars prequels, or The Hobbit).

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Aegon's conquest would be cool to see too.

 

As long as the writers realize that a) we know it's a foregone conclusion so there's no reason to try to build any "will Aegon succeed at the Field of Fire?" type of drama and b) don't try to have any silly nods to the series, like having Torrhen Stark played by any of the existing Stark actors.

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My interest in the Conquest is limited because I don't know the people involved.  Aegon and his sisters, Torrhen Stark, Harren the Black, etc... They aren't characters, although obviously they could become so in the hands of a skilled writer.

But Ned, Robert, Jaime, Barristan etc.. are well defined characters already.  Even for people like the Aerys, Lianna or Arthur Dayne, we already have broad sketches upon which to build real characters.  And the thrill of a prequel is to see these people experience one of the most significant periods of their lives.  For example, I want to see the conflict on Jaime's face as he makes the fateful decision to murder Aerys. Stuff like that.

 

On another note altogether, are they ever gonna disclose who sent the assassin to kill Bran?  And will they ever clarify the Joffrey stuff?  Why are they dragging out mysteries in a story that is already stingy with its rewards?

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On another note altogether, are they ever gonna disclose who sent the assassin to kill Bran?  And will they ever clarify the Joffrey stuff?  Why are they dragging out mysteries in a story that is already stingy with its rewards?

 

i feel like whenever they take too long to disclose information like this in the show, the audience is apt to forget the significance of what happened.  I'm not sure why I feel this is the case - maybe because there is so much action, and so many characters.  It seems like you are encouraged more to anticipate 'what happens next?!' than mull over what just happened and how it all fits in.

 

An example of where this can be problematic is the whole Tysha problem, where I honestly think you'd be hard-pressed to find a show-only viewer who remember the name, the anecdote, and its significance.

 

I don't mean it as a snobbish book/show comparison - because it's not.  I enjoy the pace of the show, and I'm always still on the edge of my seat at the end of each episode, but I think the pace/eventfulness might pose problems when you're asked to recall stuff that happened way back in season 1.

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Yes and no.  The Unsullied are still wondering about a number of unresolved plot points from early on, including who sent the assassin to Bran.  A lot of these questions may never get answered by the show, but then in the long run things like this may not matter.  Eventually they'll have to turn to the books or ask someone who has read them for the answers.  I do hope the show writers clear up the confusion regarding the off-Joff plot.  The Unsullied are still debating whether the poison was in the wine or pie and if it had anything to do with Sansa's necklace (even though Littlefinger outright said it did).  It's important for the show to disclose important points that will (I assume) have long term consequences in the story, and given that there is still confusion, the writers are so far failing to do their job.  Hopefully more exposition will come tonight.

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