S00.E148: The Husbands Of River Song

[tv-talk]

Sure Amy and Donna and every other Companion has yelled at the Doctor, it's part of the job description. What bothered so many about Clara is she talked to him like she was scolding a child. "Do as you're told!" she said in one episode- it was just absurd and not at all within framework of previous 50yrs of the show. Hell it culminated in the last scene with Clara remembering and the Doctor not the whole thing played out with her almost taking pity on him or at least being "in the know" and humoring the old fella. It was just bad for the show all-around. Clara was arguably the worst companion in show's long history, I dont think it's hating her so much as being unhappy with the show's direction over these seasons. It's really been bizarre and I'm happy it's over, Capaldi has already had some great moments as the Doctor in his short time alone. The show might actually be Doctor Who again, rather than whatever the last 2 season's should be called.

Edited December 29, 2015 by tv-talk

[Chip]

All this discussion is great but we have drifted off topic from this Christmas special! We have threads to discuss River, Clara, Season 9, and if you want to make a new thread for something else, feel free!

[darkestboy]

Bit of a strange one for me. The diamond/Hydroflax plot was poorly thought out and not very engaging.

 

Also Hydroflax, Nardole and Ramone were wasted as characters.

 

On the other hand, Twelve and River had chemistry in spades and Capaldi/Kingston were a joy to watch.

 

It was though the Darillium stuff that was the episode's highlight and should've had the bigger focus.

 

I guess for a final episode for River, it should've felt more like an event episode, 7/10

[HauntedBathroom]

Moffatt, like most misogynists [cue screeches of outrage], thinks women don't exist outside their perception by and reaction to men. So all his female characters have no depth. They're not real people, just a reaction to the Doctor. It's why his male characters are constantly defining themselves as individuals within the text while his female characters are mere mirrors to reflect parts of the Doctor. It's why he would never write a sociopathic male character and expect the Doctor (or the audience) to think she's AMAZING.

Screech.

So, you've forgotten Sherlock, then?

[Chaos Theory]

Every single male showrunner is called a misogynist at some point even though they might write some great female characters. They write a single bad one or a questionable line and suddenly they are the worlds worst misogynist . I still don't understand calling Moffat a misogynist because you don't like Clara or the fact that he has a tendency to put younger females in to the roll as companions. They are easier to write. Bit is more likely that a twenty something will upend her life then a 40 year old mother of three.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[proserpina65]

Well, that raised continuity questions all over the place, but it was fun as hell.  I loved Twelve trying to get River to realize that he was the Doctor, and when she finally did, it was magic.  And the end nearly made me cry.  (That was just dust in my eyes, I tell you.)  Personally, I've always loved River, and I've found that, as much as I enjoy grumpy, serious Twelve, funny Twelve is even better.

[foreverevolving]

Well, that raised continuity questions all over the place, but it was fun as hell.  I loved Twelve trying to get River to realize that he was the Doctor, and when she finally did, it was magic.  And the end nearly made me cry.  (That was just dust in my eyes, I tell you.)  Personally, I've always loved River, and I've found that, as much as I enjoy grumpy, serious Twelve, funny Twelve is even better.

Like what?

[proserpina65]

I hate that she left the door open to the Tardis when she went into the restaurant.  Silly I know but, there it is . . . my one quibble with the episode.

 

Perhaps metaphorically and literally leaving the door open for the next companion to stumble in?  Like so many of them did in Classic Who?

[proserpina65]

Like what?

Honestly, I'm too sick right now to remember the moments where I questioned continuity; I'll have to watch it again.  Who knows, maybe there weren't any and I'm just mis-thinking.

 

Still absolutely loved the episode, though.

[Kromm]

People have said quite clearly that they hated the Clara character for being too sure of herself, (too cool for school)  and too know it all.  I think a confident young woman was interesting. 

Yeah. It's not fair to generalize ALL of the reactions, so I won't, but at least a few (and I won't be specific, even for those on Twitter) seemed entirely too focused for my taste on this aspect. I won't pretend to get it. It's like the idea of a confident young female was the problem, and I'd hate to think anyone really thinks that. Sure it gets labeled as "arrogance" or as her "thinking she's The Doctor", but I really just saw it as Clara being portrayed as cheeky, not arrogant. Perhaps that grew (to the extent that her bad ending was supposed to be because she GOT arrogant), but it wasn't always that way with the character IMO. Her ruination as a character was, if anything, them not using her cheekiness properly. It should have stayed in the realm of comedy and not in more dramatic episodes, that's all. 

[Bruinsfan]

The weird thing about Moffett is that I've loved some of the episodes he wrote. I just hate the way he runs the show (into the ground).

I suppose it's two different skillsets. Marti Noxon wrote some of my favorite episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but when she got creative control the show degenerated into a nearly unwatchable slog punctuated by the occasional brilliant episode here and there. This Christmas special shows that Moffat still can put together a spectacular show, he just can't do so consistently, or hold the work of other writers together as a cohesive whole. Based on this (and "Heaven Sent") I'd still like him to continue writing for Doctor Who, maybe two or three episodes a season, but I'd like someone else (perhaps Toby Whithouse?) to have creative control and pilot the overall season arc.

[AudienceofOne]

 I still don't understand calling Moffat a misogynist because you don't like Clara or the fact that he has a tendency to put younger females I to the roll as companions.

 

Yes, that was my exact argument. Well spotted. Except for the fact I literally did not say either of those things. Ce la vie.

 

Screech.

So, you've forgotten Sherlock, then?

 

Sherlock was simply the Doctor all over again. So I guess you could say my argument is moot if you believe Moffat's Doctor is a sociopath as well. I personally do not.

[ganesh]

I think there's a quite a difference between confident and condescension and hubris. 

[beanyk]

I've already noted the announcement about the cruise ship sailing at "Warp 12" (hello Trekkers) but I've just looked up "Supernova Gamma Eridani" and yes, it is real.  I couldn't prove that it is in the Andromeda Galaxy but I'll bet it really is.

 

Sadly, Gamma Eridani is much closer than that --- it's in our own Galaxy, about 150 light-years from Earth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_Eridani(for comparison, the Milky Way is about 100,000 light-years in diameter, and the Andromeda galaxy is about 2.5 *million* light-years away from us).

[Bruinsfan]

They may not have meant to indicate it was, though. The announcement said they were moving through the fourth of seven galaxies, next up: Andromeda. Then they directed passengers' attention to Gamma Eridani outside the viewports. So the Milky Way may have been galaxy #4 on their itinerary, and Andromeda #5.

 

I floved River's taunt "I'm an archaeologist from the future. I dug you up!"

[swtrgrl]

I floved River's taunt "I'm an archaeologist from the future. I dug you up!"

The the "see you in XXX hundred years!" (I forget 400/600 whatever)

 

LOVED this special. I adore River. I named my car after her. LOL

 

I cried and I laughed. That's all I needed. (Plus, no Clara)

[Anakerie]

I am still holding out hope that somehow they manage to get River out of that library computer and into a real body so she can be a companion to 12 next season.  Their chemistry together was off the charts (the way I imagined Nine and Donna would have been). I have to see more of them together, even if the end of the episode did make me choke up badly.  As much as a huge Doctor/Rose shipper I was, I still believe that River and the Doctor are perfect for each other. They understand each other in a way that no one else ever will. Soul mates, as corny as that might sound. 

[beeble]

I absolutely loved this. Alex Kingston and Peter Capaldi have wonderful chemistry. I so hope that TPTB give her a series where she can somehow continue to interact with him. They were delightful and nothing seemed forced. Maybe they can be in the next Star Wars movie as Kylo Ren's wacky aunt and uncle...

[ganesh]

If they want River out of the Library computer, she'll be out. It's not like the reason has to make much sense. This is a show where they literally handwaved with "timey whimey." We all buy in to that.  

 

As much as I love the actor, I don't think River would be a good regular companion. She's far too impulsive, and as much as the companions shouldn't just be there as mindless drones of the Doctor, I don't see River getting with the usual program, as it were. It would make the Doctor more of a companion, and we already had that with Clara. And if she somehow was ok with being a regular companion, I think it would take a massive re do of the character. 

 

I certainly wouldn't mind a good two parter where River needed the Doctor's help to actually do something good. 

[penguinnj]

Went to rewatch in my local movie theatre last night and there was a large group of very happy welcoming Whovians in attendance :)

 

It is absolutely marvelous to see Capaldi grin!

[patchwork]

I don't think River as a permanent resident of the TARDIS would work because the dynamic tends to have the Doctor be her companion. Which is fun once in a while but it's not something I want every week. 

[Bruinsfan]

I rewatched last night, and another thing I loved about the special was when the Doctor tricked River into holding the teleport relay to zap her to safety, and she responded by immediately materializing the TARDIS around him and running right back onto the bridge. It had the feel of almost Muppet-like farcical comedy, but somehow it just worked.

[Mabinogia]

that bit was great Bruinsfan. I feel like River is a good equal for the Doctor. And it's kind of...earned/deserved? (can't think of the right word) because she's not just some girl off the streets of the UK. She's experienced a lot, been all over, she can match him because she's experienced some of what it's like to be him.

[alrightokay]

I rewatched last night, and another thing I loved about the special was when the Doctor tricked River into holding the teleport relay to zap her to safety, and she responded by immediately materializing the TARDIS around him and running right back onto the bridge. It had the feel of almost Muppet-like farcical comedy, but somehow it just worked.

 

that bit was great Bruinsfan. I feel like River is a good equal for the Doctor. And it's kind of...earned/deserved? (can't think of the right word) because she's not just some girl off the streets of the UK. She's experienced a lot, been all over, she can match him because she's experienced some of what it's like to be him.

 

 

Yes, this moment was a great way to show (not tell) what a great match River and Twelve are for each other.  On top of that, it was their way of showing that they love each other, without having to say it.  (And while they do say loving things later on--"No one on this ship is worth you." "Or you."--they never come right out and proclaim "I love you" directly to each other.  It's so fitting that the final spoken words of this episode are so quiet yet so full of affection: "I hate you." "No you don't.") 

[forum4idiots]

saw it again from the reruns...cried again, damn it, lol.

 

that reveal was just too touching.  on river's "last night" with the doctor, under the impression throughout her life that the doctor never loved her, and to be given the gift that he actually did....and the doctor's reaction to her heartbreak that she always believe he didn't love her throughout her speech, and his realization that river really wasn't using him as she had claimed earlier in the episode.......that reveal to each other was quite....well.....epic.

 

and this is the time that the doctor just forgot about clara  and we already know the insanity that he is capable of when he loves someone so much that he is willing to destroy time and the universe itself to save them, that the only solution was to forget clara.....so when river said he would always find a way to save someone, especially her (river), the doctor sadly tells river that "no".  everything must end, kind of why he cried that night because he knows he "can" save river the way he tried to save clara, but he knew that this selfish move has consequences, so he did the next best thing, following through with the timeline and gave her the sonic screwdriver.  it was a touching moment, as a nice continuity to why he cried and why he couldn't save river the way he did with clara......

 

oh, btw.

 

rather fitting, that the first time we were introduced to river song, the doctor didn't recognize her because they haven't met yet.......and on this special, the river didn't recognize the doctor because of his new regenerations.    a perfect bookend to her diary, book of spoilers.

Edited January 1, 2016 by lovebug1975

[Wulfsige]

I liked this episode more than I have any of the past two seasons, which kind of sounds like damning with faint praise, given that I spent the past two seasons either cringing or in outright revulsion. I do love River, although a little River does go a long way and, secondly, I don't want my love for her character to be completely wrecked by saccharine and bloated writing.

 

Anyway - I enjoyed it, loved the Doctor, and there were a few good lines in there. "Don't make puddles." Heh. Must remember that one.

[ganesh]

I wouldn't say River is equal to the Doctor. He's far older and arguably has seen a lot more of space and time. I'd argue that he's done more good overall. River tends to be out for herself more. This episode is a post-Eleven River, and she's still out stealing something and selling it to criminals. 

 

However, his colleagues, or contemporaries, are only the Time Lords, and he doesn't like them much. So I could see why he'd gravitate to her, and honestly, she's smart, doesn't suffer fools, and loves adventure. What's not to like?

 

The Doctor is basically chaotic good, River chaotic neutral. That just won't work on a regular basis. I'd like River to get out of the library, but only if there's some development. And River can do good. She gave up her regens for the Doctor.
 

[bugsmum]

Just watched it again and loved it more. Twelve and River are so, so, great together.

"Hello, sweetie." Dust in my eye, I swear.

[alias1]

I do not want River to come out of the library (but this is Moffat and he is probably already writing it in his head).  I'm not a fan of River Song, but this was a fitting end for the River Saga.  Please let it rest here. 

 

I want to see Capaldi with someone new.  I wouldn't mind if he just traveled by himself for a while, maybe taking on temporary fellow travelers each week.  I'm tired of the companion arcs.  Everyone here seems to like Amy but I see her as bad as Clara in that everything was about her.  Even River is actually part of the Amy Saga (and part of the reason why I dislike her).   I just want Doctor stories.

[forum4idiots]

maybe clara was created to be such a hated character because she will become an arch enemy for the doctor.

[Kathira]

I loved this episode! One of the few times that something intending to be fun romp actually turns out to be just that. Also one of the things I loved most was how free Peter Capaldi was to really come into his own as the 12th Doctor, without Clara. I disliked her from the start, even with Matt, although she would have been tolerable if she had left when she was meant to, in the last Christmas special, at the end of Season 8. This season, she ended up interfering with my enjoyment of the show, to the point where I considered stopping watching it altogether. Only loyalty to a show that I've loved since the 70's and the hope that it could get better kept me going. And now, seeing Twelve with River has really given me hope for a Clara-less Season 10.

 

I also would like to see a more mature companion. No more perky/sassy 20-something, British, white girls. I'd love to see a Donna or River type, or a male companion. I can see that argument that a male companion makes the show too male-centric, but I could see another a team with male and female companions. Not a couple, as we had with Amy and Rory, just some lively and interesting folks for Peter to bounce off of and argue with. It has worked in the past, and could definitely work again. Unfortunately, John Barrowman has aged enough that having him back as the ageless Jack probably wouldn't work. Although I'm sure they could make up some kind of timey-wimey explanation, I'm not sure how well he would work with Twelve. By the way, this was discussed above, but the basic character of Jack was created by RTD, then given to Moffatt to write in The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances.

[foreverevolving]

I loved this episode! One of the few times that something intending to be fun romp actually turns out to be just that. Also one of the things I loved most was how free Peter Capaldi was to really come into his own as the 12th Doctor, without Clara. I disliked her from the start, even with Matt, although she would have been tolerable if she had left when she was meant to, in the last Christmas special, at the end of Season 8. This season, she ended up interfering with my enjoyment of the show, to the point where I considered stopping watching it altogether. Only loyalty to a show that I've loved since the 70's and the hope that it could get better kept me going. And now, seeing Twelve with River has really given me hope for a Clara-less Season 10.

 

I also would like to see a more mature companion. No more perky/sassy 20-something, British, white girls. I'd love to see a Donna or River type, or a male companion. I can see that argument that a male companion makes the show too male-centric, but I could see another a team with male and female companions. Not a couple, as we had with Amy and Rory, just some lively and interesting folks for Peter to bounce off of and argue with. It has worked in the past, and could definitely work again. Unfortunately, John Barrowman has aged enough that having him back as the ageless Jack probably wouldn't work. Although I'm sure they could make up some kind of timey-wimey explanation, I'm not sure how well he would work with Twelve. By the way, this was discussed above, but the basic character of Jack was created by RTD, then given to Moffatt to write in The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances.

About bringing back Jack: It has been said that Jack does ages.. he said so himself to 10 and Martha when they returned from the year that never was - he noticed gray hairs and wrinkles before so he wondered. I think they can always return him as a much older version -- perhaps one that is a few hundred thousand years, or a million years, old.

Edited January 1, 2016 by foreverevolving

[Vikitty]

Between this episode and the new Big Finish 'Diary of River Song' series of audio dramas that just came out on Boxing Day, this River fan is very pleased. The audio dramas are fanastic. Alex's voice works so well in this form of media, too.

[Cirien]

Coming back to the episode, for me the "24 years" night was made even sweeter when you do the math on Peter Capaldi's real life marriage. He and his wife were married in 1991,

 

​Meaning by the time this ep aired they had been married for 24 years

 

I just: ​awwwww   *sniffles*

[Raingirlkm]

For whoever it was asking about River's gun and Captain Jack's being the same:

It is the "squareness gun" that we saw Jack use in The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. In the commentary for Silence In the Library/Forest of the Dead DT, RTD and SM are discussing it and Moffatt says he imagines that at some point Jack had left it on the TARDIS and River later picked it up, so not technically canon (not in an aired episode) but it is what the writer had in mind.

[Starchild]

Mark my words: when we get a male companion, it will mean they are about to regenerate the Doctor into a woman. Because NuWho just can't have a Doctor-Companion relationship that is not opposite sexed, it seems.

[tv-talk]

Isnt Jack the Face of Bo? I thought he did age but just never die, or almost never? Maybe I missed something.

 

I'd love to see a male companion and then maybe a couple episodes in add a female companion. Let's get rid of any and all tensions between the Doctor and a young British woman, we've had well enough of that. So how about a couple of companions and one of them (or both) being not from Earth or from a much different time period on Earth. 

 

Problem is the writing for that sort of thing is tougher and the powers that be may want to just stick with the hot, young Brit in a short skirt.

[elle]

Isnt Jack the Face of Bo? I thought he did age but just never die, or almost never? Maybe I missed something.

It was strongly implied that Jack was the Face of Boe, but never actually confirmed.

 

 

 

I'd love to see a male companion and then maybe a couple episodes in add a female companion. Let's get rid of any and all tensions between the Doctor and a young British woman, we've had well enough of that. So how about a couple of companions and one of them (or both) being not from Earth or from a much different time period on Earth.

Problem is the writing for that sort of thing is tougher and the powers that be may want to just stick with the hot, young Brit in a short skirt.

hot, young (Brit) in a short skirt.: Make the companion a Scot from the past, like Jamie McCrimmon. ;0)

Edited January 8, 2016 by elle

[benteen]

They had a chance to do a companion from the past and decided not to do Victorian Clara because it was too much work.

[Sunnydayman]

I finally watched the episode last night. I was pleasantly surprised. Capaldi and Kingston have a great chemistry together. She actually made the show better. They should go out on a limb and make her the next companion. The story was enjoyable. The dialogue between the characters was good. The Doctor was always one step ahead ... good job!

[Crazy8]

Absolutely adored this special. I was a River/Eleven fan, but Kingston and Capaldi just clicked instantly which is great seen as Twelve is now undeniably River's Doctor. It'll be a great shame if we don't see her again before Capaldi regenerates. Their chemistry is too good to waste.

It's also left me wondering if their grown up child could be the next companion. I'd usually baulk at that kind of thing, but what with Twelve being weirdly broody and mesmerised by babies in Series 9 and the fact they do need to change things up, I could really get behind that.

[ratgirlagogo]

I would only be in favor of that if the companion were Susan Foreman's mother.  Not sure I'd be so much in favor of it even at that, really.

[benteen]

I'd just be happy if they brought Susan back and finally resolved that storyline (I know Big Finish did). 

[elle]

 

It's also left me wondering if their grown up child could be the next companion

What child?!

 

 

I'd just be happy if they brought Susan back and finally resolved that storyline (I know Big Finish did).

Could you direct me to that story?

[benteen]

This was the first story in a major Big Finish storyline which reunited the Doctor (as his eighth incarnation) and Susan.

http://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/an-earthly-child-442

[Crazy8]

What child?

Sorry, I was speculating out loud, but by the time they leave Darillium they'll have been together for 24 successive years. That's not even factoring in the time they'll have spent having adventures in the TARDIS and arriving back there 2 minutes later. They've also both got Time Lord DNA as well, which I presume means having babies is still a possibility. To be honest, I can absolutely imagine River falling pregnant, disappearing for 9 months in the TARDIS, leaving the baby in a 'safe place' and then arriving back moments later like nothing has happened. Superficially, it'd seem like a cruel thing to do, especially as she never mentions anything in the Library, but then she'd know all about the dangers of a baby falling into the wrong hands and the only person she'd ever love more than him would probably be his child. All it would require then is for The Doctor to accidentally encounter a grown up version of said child. Again, I'm just speculating wildly, but Twelve's reaction to babies in Season 9 just struck me as though it could be foreshadowing. It might be a great way to delve more into Gallifrey now as well as more of his past, and this episode could have set all that up. I'm surprised that I'm actually ok with the thought of this. It just seems like it'd really work with Capaldi's Doctor, and a parental companion relationship would be a nice change.

I really don't think they'll bring back Susan or her Mother for more than an episode. Moffat would struggle to sell that to the BBC who'd probably be concerned that 'New Who' fans wouldn't be invested. It's great that Big Finish do some serious fan service though.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Crazy8

[Llywela]

Please, no. Moffat has already shoehorned his pet characters into enough of the Doctor's life. No children. And especially no 'River is the grandmother of Susan'. The Doctor was already Susan's grandfather when he left Gallifrey, way back in his first incarnation. She is not connected to River, and nor should she be. Current characters do not have to be linked to past characters.

I want the next companion to be someone completely fresh and new, free from the turgid mess the last few years have been. Preferably, I'd like the next companion to be two companions, an ensemble cast harking back to the early days of the show. Two companions from different places and times, and of equal status, freeing the show from this whole 'the Doctor gets inappropriately emotionally dependent on a single pretty young girl at a time' thing New Who has had going for the last ten years.

[AudienceofOne]

freeing the show from this whole 'the Doctor gets inappropriately emotionally dependent on a single pretty young girl at a time' thing New Who has had going for the last ten years.

 

 

I suspect asking Moffatt to stop being skeevy is a modern King Canute appeal.

[elle]

Sorry, I was speculating out loud, 

Oh that is fine. I was worried that there was something written in books or a game.  Even if it would not be canon it would be out there somewhere.

 

 

I really don't think they'll bring back Susan or her Mother for more than an episode. Moffat would struggle to sell that to the BBC who'd probably be concerned that 'New Who' fans wouldn't be invested. It's great that Big Finish do some serious fan service though.

I heard it was the other way 'round, that Moffat didn't want to add in an "old" elements of the original show.

[ganesh]

Wow, really? Not being sarcastic. I thought the new incarnation of Who has done quite a good job of quietly incorporating the entire canon. We've seen tons of the Doctor's faces many times, as recent as the last aired episode. They even firmly included Eight as tv canon, which I thought was wonderfully generous and well deserved. Sarah Jane was a featured character. Obviously, the Master has been around. UNIT is still a part of the show, and the Brigadier is still around, though as his granddaughter. Ten mentioned him explicitly, and he was actually still "active" at the time. They showed One running away with Susan. I don't know what 'old' elements of the original show they wouldn't want to include. Ten canonically had a daughter. If Susan showed up, would it really be that big of a deal?