S31.E13: Villains Have More Fun

[Kippy]

I really like everyone who is left and wouldn't be irritated by any of them winning. Even kimmi. Yes, that would be a horrible outcome to a great season but so so funny.

As far as the move Spencers made, I don't really see what was so bad. Maybe it is my total devotion to his character but it made sense to me. Abi is a complete lunatic and to try to play by her whims and rules must be exhausting. I would rather take my chances with people who can be reasoned with and swayed by logic than who can kiss her butt (which is amazing) the most.

Jeremy has played an awesome game but I don't necessarily think it has been that much better than Spencers or kelleys. He manipulates people and has found idols. Kelley has done the same and Spencers has manipulated and won necklaces. Most of the end game Spencers and Jeremy have played together with the exception being Stephen votes. I just don't see Jeremy being soooo much better than the others in terms of game play.

I think that Jeremy hasn't been targeted because they know he has an idol. Why would he play a random idol for Stephen unless he had a backup for himself?

[Turtle]

 

I understand the rational behind voting Abi off - she IS an unpredictable player, which makes it really hard to play with her (among many, many other things). Was it the right move in that moment, at that time in the season? I say no. There is NO WAY anyone would vote for her at FTC. She did NOTHING but annoy everyone. She was the perfect goat, IMO. Did Jeremy and Spencer let Kelley's talk of "no goat should go to FTC" get to them?

Abi may have been the perfect goat for any one of them theoretically, but practically, a person can only be your goat if you're pretty sure you can drag them along with you.  No one could have that level of confidence that *they'd* be the one/ one of the ones to get there with Abi, because she could have turned on any one of them at any time.  Ideally, you want your goat to be someone who you are pretty sure is loyal to you, or at least can be reasoned with, but who won't get votes at final tribal.

 

I'm with a lot you in being confused why Jeremy never seems to be seen as a threat.  All I can think is that a) he hasn't been winning challenges, and b) he's done a remarkably good job at keeping another target in front of him throughout the game.  They may even think that the fact that he looks like he *should* be winning challenges and isn't can be used against him at final tribal.  I think his low-key personality and the great negotiator skills mentioned above, combined with his flexibility when he sees something isn't working, have kept him in the game this long, but he's going to have to do some serious explaining about his game at final tribal to get the votes; it seems like people don't even realize he's playing!  

 

I think that Jeremy hasn't been targeted because they know he has an idol. Why would he play a random idol for Stephen unless he had a backup for himself?

All the MORE reason to target him!  They should want to burn that idol so that Jeremy is not guaranteed a place in the final four - if he's in, one of them is out.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Turtle

[Paws]

Most of the end game Spencers and Jeremy have played together with the exception being Stephen votes. I just don't see Jeremy being soooo much better than the others in terms of game play.

The thing is, Jeremy has made everybody feel like they are his tightest alliance. Tasha Stephen and Spencer haven't been anyone else's tightest person. They are all in orbit around Jeremy.

Edited to add: plus, a much as the other players all seem to get along, I think Jeremy is just flat-out like able in a way Spencer isn't. And Jeremy has the pregnant Val card to play at FTC. When you look at the current jury and who is likely to become a juror, more votes go to Jeremy.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Paws

[riverheightsnancy]

Oh, but he was really ugly to Abi and possibly a few others. We didn't see that because Probst would never allow us to see him in a bad light. Someone else upthread mentioned Joe's interviews afterward where he admitted that and owned up to it.

Abi's not a Scorpio, she's the sign just before it. I am a Scorpio, her birthday is earlier in October.

Hey Cooksdelight! What did he say? Can you tell us?? She must be a Sagittarius. 

 

Off Topic: I take it from the lack of response, that you never got a response from Alan from Alone? That show just fell off the map. 

[Paws]

I heard jOe on Rob Has a Podcast and he said that he had said some awful things to Abi at the last tribal and made her cry, which is why she was so mad at him when she voted him out. He said that her anger at him was totally justified. Malcolm was also on RHAP and he said when he played with Abi that she was just awful on the island but that a fed aBi is a happy Abi. I'm a bit like that myself.

[Jobiska]

ETA:  depending on what year she was born, 10/23 could be on the cusp of or actually Scorpio.

 

Yep, that's actually my birthday too (ack!!!) and it is listed as starting on 10/23 and 10/24 on different charts.  

There's a bonus clip ("He's Such a Nerd") that makes me for one believe Jeremy was not throwing this challenge to Spencer.

Speaking of challenges--this one was not totally without a balance element--that darn beam they have to run across.  I think Kimmi had particular trouble with it, but not sure, as they were focusing more on the leaders at that point.  I know, different kind of balance than standing in one place, but still!

I'm not fond of Tasha.  She seems to take things personally (not as badly as Abi, but still).  Yeah, annoying that Keith didn't remember her name, but it was, as folks upthread say, obvious that this was not his usual aw-shucks folksy rambling but sheer exhaustion/deprivation.  I have word retrieval problems when my sugar fluctuates.  I agree with those upthread--express annoyance in the talking head, but don't call him slow.  She's a "brain"--but not so much a "heart."

Keith, actually, if given the choices of Mars expedition or Cambodian temple, I'd pick the latter for where you'd been.  Still, that was funny.

 

[riverheightsnancy]

It's particularly awful of Tasha to call Keith slow when she knows perfectly well he's exhausted. According to Joe, Keith also collapsed at that immunity challenge last week and had to be revived. That happened maybe a day before the reward challenge. Keith may be difficult for some people to understand, but he's generally fairly coherent. After that reward challenge, he was obviously struggling to form sentences. To call him "slow" because he couldn't come up with her name in his confusion was incredibly insensitive.

Yup. Lack of food, sleep, carbs, physical exhaustion, hydration, can make the neural processes go haywire. As a menopausal woman, I have those brain fog moments as well when you know that you know, but the info just doesn't come out. It just doesn't come out. I totally related to Keith in that moment. It can be really frustrating when this happens on the regular. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Re:  Keith

 

More like "Joe Light", not quite as good on challenges and even more hopeless when it comes to strategy.

 

I am not even a fan of Keith, but why?   How is Joe better than Keith when it comes to strategy?  Keith has outlasted Joe in the results in two different seasons.  Keith is going to make it much farther than Joe did, yet again. 

 

Sagittarius comes after Scorpio, not before.  Abi's on the cusp before.   There's no way that Abi is a Sagittarius.  

 

Abi-Maria Gomes ‏@theabimaria  13h13 hours ago Santa Monica, CA
His wife and daughter are. He knows what up. I am on the cusp. Libra/Scorpio.

 

Abi-Maria Gomes ‏@theabimaria  13h13 hours ago Santa Monica, CA
To Jeremy Collins
I wouldn't date you either

Edited December 10, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[riverheightsnancy]

Sheesh, she's a Libra!?!  The sign known for balance, harmony, and diplomacy?  I wonder what her moon sign is?

 

ETA:  depending on what year she was born, 10/23 could be on the cusp of or actually Scorpio.

She fits the shadow side of Libra though, indecisive and changeable, flirtatious, self-indulgent, easily influenced. My husband is a Libra, similar traits. 

[Special K]

There's a bonus clip ("He's Such a Nerd") that makes me for one believe Jeremy was not throwing this challenge to Spencer.

 

 

First of all, hilarious that Spencer memorized that puzzle from S30!  (See bonus clip "I memorized that puzzle.")  That's how you prepare for Survivor!!

 

And I did watch the Jeremy clip, but I still think he was dogging it just a little. Honestly, I think he has just slotted Spencer into the Jeremy's-shield slot now that Joe is gone.  He looked like he was not pushing to the extent others were, and he seemed to be keeping Spencer in his eye the whole time, especially when Spencer fell and fell behind.  Even when Jeremy dumped his puzzle pieces, he seemed to be in a lower speed.  I suppose that could be from exhaustion, too.

[slowpoked]

I'm surprised at Tasha taking offense on Keith not remembering her name when she's notorious for butchering (and according to some, deliberately) people's names when she's voting them off. 

[Oscirus]

He was definitely going for the win. Jeremy is in too much danger to be throwing challenges. Besides, even if he wasn't good in the puzzle part, he still dominated the physical part.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Oscirus

[Zuleikha]

All season long people have been claiming Jeremy has been sandbagging challenges and there's zero evidence of it. He's physically strong, but he doesn't seem particularly dexterous or all-around athletic.

 

If Spencer doesn't realize what a threat Jeremy is to win, then it's yet another sign that Spencer's overestimating his own game. Jeremy has been explicitly called out multiple times as a jury threat. He's always been named as one of the people controlling the game. He's liked by everyone and has relationships with everyone. Spencer's best hope in what seems to be his planned Tasha/Jeremy/Spencer f3 is that Tasha/Jeremy will split supporters and let Spencer sneak in. Personally, I think Tasha will simply get zero votes in that scenario and everyone who likes both of them will vote Jeremy instead.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Zuleikha

[Paws]

Spencer's best hope in what seems to be his planned Tasha/Jeremy/Spencer f3 is that Tasha/Jeremy will split supporters and let Spencer sneak in. Personally, I think Tasha will simply get zero votes in that scenario and everyone who likes both of them will vote Jeremy instead.

Agreed. In fact, I must have been editing my post to say a similar thing at the same time you posted. Plus he has kids, is a firefighter, Val is pregnant, etc...he's more sympathetic.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I don't think Jeremy is sandbagging anymore, at all.  Nobody needs to convince me that Spencer is the king of puzzles.  That guy has a quick brain working even when starving.  Regardless, I still pull for Jeremy.  Throughout the season, I'm pulling less for Spencer and my fondness for Jeremy has remained steady.

 

This is all, of course, assuming Spencer is IN the final three, which I truly hope he is. I think he has improved the most upon his previous game. To see him being an immediate early target in this game, to totally turning it around and locking down final three deals with two different groups, and not even really being considered as a boot in weeks - it's pretty amazing. AND he solved that final puzzle faster than any of the testers were able to! Quite impressive.

 

I like these points about Jury Management.  Spencer turning on Kelley and Keith after making an explicit agreement with them.  Maybe not a great idea.  Keith is already talking about hunting people down in Chicago and Brazil.   Actually, Keith voted for Abi, is that right?  I have no clue what happened actually.   Who has Jeremy turned on?  Okay, Kimmie and Tasha once actually.  The Wiglesworth vote.  Yet, they still seem to really like him.  I guess Voting Bloc Season means no bitter jury votes, hopefully.  

 

I've finally come around to the point where I'm not sure why people are pulling for Spencer to win so hard.  Not that I can really explain my affiliations well, myself. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[slowpoked]

I like these points about Jury Management.  Spencer turning on Kelley and Keith after making an explicit agreement with them.  Maybe not a great idea.  Keith is already talking about hunting people down in Chicago and Brazil.   Actually, Keith voted for Abi, is that right?  I have no clue what happened actually.   

Keith stuck with the plan (heh!) and voted for Tasha. 

 

This is the most strategy I've seen from Keith. Funny that it was also in the same episode where it was an abomination for him to make it to the finals. I think it's more of an abomination of a game to actually tell someone to get lost so they could talk strategy, no? But like Spencer, Tasha had also bought into her own hype and thinks she's playing the greatest game out there.

[Skeeter22]

I will never understand why some players go on about taking the "strong" to the end and it being more honorable to duke it out on day 39. How is it less honorable to take out a major player on day 30? You still beat them. It's ridiculous.

The idea that some players are goats because they don't play the "strategic game" or physical game the way someone like Tasha or Spencer thinks they should always annoys me. 29 different people have won this game using different methods and strategies. There's no one size fits all game, and there's no one type than can win Survivor. In the right circumstances, Abi could win Survivor. If you were required to be good at challenges, or at least fool people into thinking you were like Jeremy, then we'd never have Sandra as a two time winner. If it were 100% strategy, we might live in a world where Russell can win the game. That would be terrible.

[ProfCrash]

I think Tasha and Jeremy identified that Spenser was a swing vote and they were worried that they were on the block. Joe made the same argument to the same group when he knew he was on the block. If you see yourself as a stronger player you try and find a way to stay in at the end and appealing to the other strong players to keep you because it should be the strong vs the strong at the finale.

 

Personally, I think Tasha and Spencer were crazy for not voting out Jeremy but what do I know.

[Special K]

I feel like the people who are all about "winning against the strongest" probably are bringing to Survivor more of a sports-type mindset.  Like nobody really likes it when an "inferior" team somehow makes it to the Super Bowl or the World Series. There's a feeling that the process should winnow out the lesser based on merit.  Of course that doesn't always happen.  But the "best" Super Bowls/World Series/Marathons/Olympics are universally thought to be when the most talented duke it out and together raise the level of competition.  So those Survivors would bring a value judgement to certain kinds of wins over others -- I won against X, Y, Z! 

 

It's why people voice disrespect for Sandra and Kim and Rob and whoever is thought to have "sailed" to a Surivor win against lesser competition.

 

Whereas many other Survivors would be happy to not have to contend with the big competition and have greater odds of winning themselves.

 

I think it comes from a combination of vanity/self-regard and an entrenched feeling about the "honor" of competition.  I think it is heightened this season because of the inherent "merit" these guys all carry having been voted in.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Special K

[Adeejay]

When I saw the list of the contestants for this season, I was over the moon.  I thought it would be one of the better seasons.   Unfortunately, like most of the seasons with "returnees",  the promise hasn't lived up to the reality.  I found this season lackluster.  I can't believe this is our final six.  I am not at all impress.

[KimberStormer]

I feel like Kelley has been getting the blame for things other people have said.  She didn't say "payback's a bitch", did she?  I thought that was Abi.  And someone said Spencer let Kelley's "no goat should get to the end" argument get to him, but I sure don't remember that argument coming from her.

 

I'm certain Jeremy didn't throw the challenge, it doesn't make sense.  He beat Spencer to the puzzle, but Spencer literally had the puzzle memorized and solved it faster than anyone ever has.  (I found Jeff saying that this challenge was giving the puzzle a second chance sort of adorable.)  ALSO: bonus for those conspiracy theorists, as soon as Joe goes out, we get two challenges with no balance/endurance component.  I found that hilarious in the context of this board.

 

When I saw the list of the contestants for this season, I was over the moon.  I thought it would be one of the better seasons.   Unfortunately, like most of the seasons with "returnees",  the promise hasn't lived up to the reality.  I found this season lackluster.  I can't believe this is our final six.  I am not at all impress.

 

So funny, I'm the total opposite!  I looked at the cast and I thought "this is the worst cast ever" but it's been a great season to me.  This episode was not good, and doesn't augur an enjoyable finale, but heck, I've been wrong all along, hopefully I'm wrong about that one too.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Survivor: Cambodia And The Temple Of Buffoons
Lucky challenge winners take in the local culture; one more not-so-lucky Survivor cheats death; Jeff Probst finds new and irritating ways to split hairs.

[slowpoked]

I feel like the people who are all about "winning against the strongest" probably are bringing to Survivor more of a sports-type mindset.  Like nobody really likes it when an "inferior" team somehow makes it to the Super Bowl or the World Series. There's a feeling that the process should winnow out the lesser based on merit.  Of course that doesn't always happen.  But the "best" Super Bowls/World Series/Marathons/Olympics are universally thought to be when the most talented duke it out and together raise the level of competition.  So those Survivors would bring a value judgement to certain kinds of wins over others -- I won against X, Y, Z! 

 

<snip>

 

I think it comes from a combination of vanity/self-regard and an entrenched feeling about the "honor" of competition.  I think it is heightened this season because of the inherent "merit" these guys all carry having been voted in.

 

If that's Tasha's mindset, then she should have fought hard to keep Joe instead of voting him off the last tribal. It's like having her cake and eating it too. So what, she wants the biggest threat out of the game, yet she doesn't want those she deems unworthy to reach the end? Why not go sit in the F3 with Joe then?

Edited December 10, 2015 by slowpoked

[LadyChatts]

I feel like Kelley has been getting the blame for things other people have said.  She didn't say "payback's a bitch", did she?  I thought that was Abi.  And someone said Spencer let Kelley's "no goat should get to the end" argument get to him, but I sure don't remember that argument coming from her.

 

I'm certain Jeremy didn't throw the challenge, it doesn't make sense.  He beat Spencer to the puzzle, but Spencer literally had the puzzle memorized and solved it faster than anyone ever has.  (I found Jeff saying that this challenge was giving the puzzle a second chance sort of adorable.)  ALSO: bonus for those conspiracy theorists, as soon as Joe goes out, we get two challenges with no balance/endurance component.  I found that hilarious in the context of this board.

 

 

So funny, I'm the total opposite!  I looked at the cast and I thought "this is the worst cast ever" but it's been a great season to me.  This episode was not good, and doesn't augur an enjoyable finale, but heck, I've been wrong all along, hopefully I'm wrong about that one too.

 

Joe would have annihilated them (including puzzle memorizer Spencer) in that challenge.  I also thought it was adorable that Jeff made it seem like the poor step child of puzzles last season was getting a second chance to shine.  Also, because it probably irked the former WC tribe from last season to see how much better an option that might have been than that monstrosity jigsaw option they picked.  I didn't care for anyone on that tribe, except So.  I like to think they kept the balance/endurance challenges to make it fair for everyone else (unless that was your point) because, Joe ;)  It does make me curious though, conspiracies aside, why so many endurance challenges in the beginning, but decide to change it this late?  Did they run out?  I don't think Jeremy threw it, either, on re-watch.  At first I thought he was holding back again, after getting lead, but he seemed wore out.

 

I'm mixed on this season.  It's a definite improvement than the last two (by a very wide margin), and I prefer it to the original AS or the likes of Caramoan, RI, and SP.  But I have to say, I think, in terms of returnee seasons go, I like HvsV and Micronesia more.  And I still prefer non returnee seasons Amazon and Cagayan.

 

And I keep forgetting Tasha said she'd be fine losing to Jeremy out of loyalty (was that said in an interview?)  I start losing track of where things originate.  Anyway, if she did in fact say that, isn't that the very definition of goat?

Edited December 10, 2015 by LadyChatts

[ghoulina]

Yup. Lack of food, sleep, carbs, physical exhaustion, hydration, can make the neural processes go haywire. As a menopausal woman, I have those brain fog moments as well when you know that you know, but the info just doesn't come out. It just doesn't come out. I totally related to Keith in that moment. It can be really frustrating when this happens on the regular.

 

As a mom of three young kids, I often stumble trying to name the correct one. I've even called them after the dog! These things happen. 

 

First of all, hilarious that Spencer memorized that puzzle from S30!  (See bonus clip "I memorized that puzzle.")  That's how you prepare for Survivor!!

 

Oh my gosh, seriously??? I think I love him even more now!

 

I like these points about Jury Management.  Spencer turning on Kelley and Keith after making an explicit agreement with them.  Maybe not a great idea.  Keith is already talking about hunting people down in Chicago and Brazil.   Actually, Keith voted for Abi, is that right?  I have no clue what happened actually.   Who has Jeremy turned on?  Okay, Kimmie and Tasha once actually.  The Wiglesworth vote.  Yet, they still seem to really like him.  I guess Voting Bloc Season means no bitter jury votes, hopefully.

 

I could be wrong, but I really don't think this will come down to who the jury is bitter at vs. who they really want to hang out with. I think this crew might really just vote based on appreciation of game play. Maybe not all, but most. Or I could be incredibly naive. 

 

So funny, I'm the total opposite!  I looked at the cast and I thought "this is the worst cast ever" but it's been a great season to me.  This episode was not good, and doesn't augur an enjoyable finale, but heck, I've been wrong all along, hopefully I'm wrong about that one too.

 

I'm kind of in the middle, because some people I was thrilled about and others I was very "meh" or even groaning in anticipation. But I have LOVED this season. It has really kept me on my toes and I am happy to like so many people that are left in the game at this point. 

[Special K]

 

Oh my gosh, seriously??? I think I love him even more now!

 

 

For real!  He says in the clip that he was rewatching S30 and said, "wouldn't it be just like Jeff Probst to bring back that unused puzzle."

 

Love. <3

If that's Tasha's mindset, then she should fought hard to keep Joe instead of voting him off the last tribal. It's like having her cake and eating it too. So what, she wants the biggest threat out of the game, yet she doesn't want those she deems unworthy to reach the end? Why not go sit in the F3 with Joe then?

 

You are quite right.  The hypocrisy abounds.

[Skeeter22]

For real!  He says in the clip that he was rewatching S30 and said, "wouldn't it be just like Jeff Probst to bring back that unused puzzle."

 

Love. <3

 

Colin Stone, a Survivor podcaster, tweeted that he was the one who advised Spencer to study that puzzle.

[How Bout That]

 

I've finally come around to the point where I'm not sure why people are pulling for Spencer to win so hard.  Not that I can really explain my affiliations well, myself. 

 

To me he seems like the only one who has truly overhauled his game to take advantage of a second chance. He has recognized some of the flaws in his game and has done his best to adapt his strategy.

I don't see any growth from the other competitors.

[ghoulina]

To me he seems like the only one who has truly overhauled his game to take advantage of a second chance. He has recognized some of the flaws in his game and has done his best to adapt his strategy.

I don't see any growth from the other competitors.

 

That's basically how I feel as well. 

 

Also, I think he's made a remarkable turn around in THIS game. He was a big target early on. If not for Shirin, he would likely have been first to go. He got past that and was able to turn things in his favor. He hasn't been seriously mentioned as a boot in a long time, and he is very very good at challenges. And now he has two sets of people making final three deals with him. Not too shabby. 

[Guest]

Colin Stone, a Survivor podcaster, tweeted that he was the one who advised Spencer to study that puzzle.

That alone is reason enough for him to win, to me.  I've never even heard of that podcaster (not that I'm deep in the Survivor fandom).  But to find tips like that and then do them?  That's dedication.  

[Mreid]

I cannot understand why no one ever thinks to vote out Jeremy??? Or even before the IC, no one talked about getting rid of Spencer. IMO, they are the 2 biggest threats in the game!

The fact that Jeremy has not got a single vote and that no one has targeted him just proves how great of a game he has played this season both social, physical and strategic his strategy of hiding being the physical threats was incredible I want Jeremy to win so bad!

[Knuckles]

Spencer would be an ok win...he's won ICs and he has a good strategic/social game. And, as noted above, he also gets the "most improved" vote. 

Jeremy, though he wins as the puppet master...has not won a single challenge. I have long thought he was sandbagging, but it is also possible that he just doesn't have it. Maybe that is why no survivor seems to view him as a real threat. Still boggles me, though.

I am all for Keith though...loved watching him race through that RC...for his second win at that effort. And on a rewatch, the tension between Keith and Tasha was totally visible...those two just don't like each other. Tasha looking as sour as could be, until Probst called her on it, and she piped up in pure corporate speech with a "I take advantage of all my opportunities" word mash. Sure you do. She and Keith...daggers drawn. 

[blackwing]

I like Jeremy, and would be OK if he won.  But I tend to not like the "under the radar" type players.  It's why I dislike Sandra and her "anyone but me" strategy.  I want the winner to be someone who has noticeable impact on the game.  It's why in Original Recipe Blood vs. Water, even though I hated Tyson, I thought he clearly deserved his win.  He was very visibly running the game, everyone knew it, and yet they couldn't get him out.  He was very smart to go to the end with his lackeys Monica Culpepper and Gervase, who did absolutely nothing in the game but vote with him.

 

It's why if I were a voter, I would vote for Spencer or Tasha over Jeremy.  They have had to fight to stay alive.  They made moves that kept them in the game and they have been at the bottom.  They have been competitive in challenges and have a great social game.  On the other hand, Jeremy's only noticeable move has been to use his idol on Stephen.  Apart from that, he's never been in any real danger.  He has subtly deflected attention from himself and on to others, namely Joe.  I think it's very telling that last night Jeremy kept saying he had buyer's remorse.  I think he was very scared because he knew that with Joe gone, he could have been a huge target of the women's alliance.

 

I still don't understand why Tasha would rather go to the end with Jeremy and Spencer instead of Abi and Kimmi.  With Abi and Kimmi it seems to me that she would be a fairly certain winner.  Kimmi has done nothing and people can't stand Abi.  And if she were at the end with Kelley, I think she merits a win more than Kelley. Ciera was the brains and force behind the "Witches Coven" or whatever they were called.  Once Ciera went out, Kelley pretty much has no game.  It seemed like there was a women's alliance but then Kelley quickly decided that Tasha had to go.

[Ms Blue Jay]

To me he seems like the only one who has truly overhauled his game to take advantage of a second chance. He has recognized some of the flaws in his game and has done his best to adapt his strategy.  I don't see any growth from the other competitors.

 

You don't think Jeremy has improved his game?  Only Spencer?  What about Kelley Wentworth?  Even Kimmie has probably improved her game.  She's playing well UTR even if she's not intending it.  Even Tasha has improved.  Yet people are only seeing Spencer as taking hold of his Second Chance!  The power of editing, and the power of Jeremy's invisibility cloak.  

 

I think Keith might end up playing the same game.  The curse of him getting so far last time means it will be hard to beat.  Spencer got very far last time too.  Has he really improved so much ?  Only if he finishes better than 4th.  And we do not know if that will happen.  Yet I can already say that Jeremy and Kelley have VASTLY improved upon SJDS.  Spencer is going to play the same game with the same results and the same amount of challenge wins, just through different actions (my prediction.)  In Cagayan, Spencer showed his frustrations, was targeted, and got into it with Kass.  In Cambodia, Spencer doesn't show his frustrations, and smoothly moves between alliances.  So what?  I agree he's playing a good game but he made it to 4th in Cagayan while acting tormented the entire ride.  Even when he cannot control his emotions or disdain, he's very good at puzzles and challenges.  Those skills have remained.

 

"Jeremy has not had to fight to stay alive" is no strike against him, for me.  It's a point for him.  

 

I think he was very scared because he knew that with Joe gone, he could have been a huge target of the women's alliance.

 

And yet he wasn't.  Everyone has thought of targeting him or leaving him, but no one has actually successfully done it.  To those wondering about Jeremy's "fatigue" in the challenge, well I don't think he's gone on reward in a really long time.  He wasn't taken on the past two.  Yet other people were; a lot of them.  Everyone except Jeremy and Tasha.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[green]

Thank you, cooksdelight, I did not know this.

 

Funny when viewers have to watch webchats and read blogs in order to understand what's really going on in game shows, no?

 

Tis always been this way.  But in olden days when the reality show genre was new the editing wasn't as "forced" as in control freak level I believe.  But as time went on TPTB seemed to want to just push their agendas and use the contestants any old way that would boost their ratings or enhance their sense of "creativity" to make their "show"  as opposed to letting the reality lead them into storylines.  Not just editing footage but editing the timelines has become standard.

 

I'm sure if they had wanted another narrative this season they could have made Abi to look like the most gentle and sweet and kind soul ever and Joe could have been the big bad school yard bully and we would have ended up with a "feel good" episode of Abi at least out lasting big mean Joe complete with the self-admitted (by Joe) hateful barbs he threw out at Abi.

 

And I wouldn't have been surprised if they had done that except for two reasons:  Joe was a returnee that was already popular and, unlike say a Dan, Joe has good looks and society somehow equates good looks with good people way too often. 

 

But now with social media pretty much beyond the control of TPTB on these shows more "truth" (it all being relative) is starting to surface.  I imagine in a year or two at most TPTB will figure out a way to ride this development more.  Maybe a Survivor with live feeds a la Big Brother isn't too far away with TV episodes only a few days behind what is actually happening in real time.  Though I hear that the live BB feeds often times show stuff totally different storyline wise from the TV only version.  I don't know.  I watched like the first 3 seasons then quit that show forever.

 

I feel like the people who are all about "winning against the strongest" probably are bringing to Survivor more of a sports-type mindset.  Like nobody really likes it when an "inferior" team somehow makes it to the Super Bowl or the World Series. There's a feeling that the process should winnow out the lesser based on merit.  Of course that doesn't always happen.  But the "best" Super Bowls/World Series/Marathons/Olympics are universally thought to be when the most talented duke it out and together raise the level of competition.  So those Survivors would bring a value judgement to certain kinds of wins over others -- I won against X, Y, Z! 

 

It's why people voice disrespect for Sandra and Kim and Rob and whoever is thought to have "sailed" to a Surivor win against lesser competition.

 

 

I repectfully disagree.  It's been my experience that if your home team isn't in the WS or Superbowl then fans tend to root for the underdog.  The more the "Cinderella" a team is the more they become beloved.  Everyone loves David taking on Goliath.

 

Also I never heard anyone say bad stuff against Sandra's wins.  On the contrary people seem to love the way she kept surviving.  In polls I've seen in the past she is usually one of the most popular players ever.

 

When I saw the list of the contestants for this season, I was over the moon.  I thought it would be one of the better seasons.   Unfortunately, like most of the seasons with "returnees",  the promise hasn't lived up to the reality.  I found this season lackluster.  I can't believe this is our final six.  I am not at all impress.

 

I'm the opposite.  I've found this season perhaps the most fun and entertaining in over a decade.  Intersting strong and colorful characters and loose flowing "voting blocs" keeping who goes out each week more often than not a surprise.  The only dull part for me was the endless balance challenges.

Edited December 11, 2015 by green

[After7Only]

Same here, I don't like her entitled attitude.

 

 

 

I don't find her entitled at all.  I don't find her semi-aggressive game play any different than Spencer's.  

 

I actually thought her speech to Spencer and Jeremy about not taking GOATs to the end/disappointing fans, wasn't necessarily her belief, but it was directly to appeal to super-fan Spencer to get him not to flip.  She's shown before with Abi, that she she's willing to say things or agree to things, she doesn't really mean for gameplay's sake.  

[Neerbeena]

 

How has Spencer been more impressive than Kelley?

 

Other than being lucky enough to get two idols and using one wisely, what has Kelly done that's been so impressive?

 

 

So much for the women's alliance.  It lasted all of three (?) days.  Were Tasha and Kelley ever serious about it?

 

I don't know about Tasha and Kelley, but I don't believe Kimmee has ever been serious about one.  She latched on to Jeremy on day one and has been steadfast in his alliance ever since.

[Nashville]

I love Tasha and hate Abi, so I was thrilled with the outcome, but I still think Spencer made a fatal error in not doing everything in his power to make a Jeremy blindside happen.  That's the big move he would need, that he could present to the jury and say, "I did that.  I took out the most powerful player in the game."  But oh well.  As long as Kimmi or Wentworth don't win, I'll be happy with any of the other four taking the million.

 

  

I really think this is what's going on. I don't think Jeremy is coming off as the biggest threat to the people in the game. His gameplay is very subtle and UTR so I can't really judge them for it. But at the same time, even if they don't see just how in control Jeremy is, I still don't really get why any of them want to keep him. All of the women in particular should know their chances of winning against Jeremy are about 0 no matter how little they think he's done. As for Spencer, I am starting to wonder if maybe he knows about Jeremy's idol.

peachmangosteen you beat me to it. Given that the other players don't have our quasi-omniscient view on the game ("quasi" because WE don't see anything except what Production chooses to show us), I honestly don't think they have any idea just how much Jeremy has been playing the game, other than some minor murmurs about his social game.

Jeremy is the functional definition of UTR at this point.

...which could turn around and bite him on the ass come FTC. :>

[peachmangosteen]

Jeremy is the functional definition of UTR at this point.

...which could turn around and bite him on the ass come FTC. :>

 

That's what I wonder about, especially if he's up against Spencer. If he's up against anyone else, I still think he wins even if he doesn't successfully convince the jury he's the player he was. But it'll be harder against Spencer because he has just made more visible moves. And he's won ICs.

[BigRedCheese]

 

I don't find her entitled at all.  I don't find her semi-aggressive game play any different than Spencer's.

 

I'm not even talking about just the game, I've heard her in interviews, and I really just dislike her.

[truthaboutluv]

And he totally let Spencer win that immunity.  Thus ensuring they both stay another day (thanks to his idol).

 

YMMV but I see zero evidence of this. Spencer has proven this season and his season in Cagayan that he is pretty impressive in challenges while Jeremy hasn't. So many seem so sure Jeremy is throwing challenges to downplay his strength and yet I don't remember Jeremy being that impressive in challenges in San Juan Del Sur either.

 

So do some believe he was throwing them then too? Spencer has been near the end of most immunity challenges, almost won the memory reward challenge, actually won an immunity challenge against the "challenge beast" Joe and the last part of the challenge was a puzzle, which he has shown he is fairly adept at. Spencer won that challenge IMO and simply beat Jeremy out in the puzzle portion. 

 

Yes, this game is about more than "Outwit" it is also about "Outplay." Spencer has been kicking ass in the individual challenges and none of the remaining players have done better in the individual immunity challenges. He has definitely outplayed any of the others left and that combined with his superior strategic game should make him the favorite to win the million.

 

I think another misconception may be that Spencer is unlikable. I know that's certainly what the editing and his storyline has tried to sell this season, that he's the stoic who has to learn to show emotion and feelings. And I'm not saying that isn't in some sense who he is. However, I don't think that means he's unlikable. I know there was some drama or whatever on twitter some days ago after Stephen was voted out between him and Stephen but for the most part, I don't think anyone has ever really said anything truly bad about Spencer. 

 

I remember in his original season, most of the jury was more than ready to vote him for the million if he'd made the final tribal council which is exactly why Tony and company knew they had to get him out when he lost immunity at F4. None of the three of Tony, Kass and Woo were going to beat Spencer. And this season, I don't disagree that Jeremy is likable and a strong threat to sit next to in the end but I think some underestimate how liked Spencer himself might be.

 

I think back to Savage's comments when he wanted to vote him out. He said how much he liked Spencer, thought he was a great kid, that he was someone he'd be proud to call his son but that he was just too much of a threat to keep around. And clearly Savage and Varner and others who wanted him out earlier were right. Don't let him get deep into the game. 

 

Abi may have been the perfect goat for any one of them theoretically, but practically, a person can only be your goat if you're pretty sure you can drag them along with you.  No one could have that level of confidence that *they'd* be the one/ one of the ones to get there with Abi, because she could have turned on any one of them at any time.  Ideally, you want your goat to be someone who you are pretty sure is loyal to you, or at least can be reasoned with, but who won't get votes at final tribal.

 

This exactly. A perfect example of a good goat relationship was Philip and Boston Rob. That worked because Rob somehow managed to contain and control Philip's crazy. So yes he was a nut but Rob knew he was always going to do what he said and vote the way he wanted to and he did. That is not Abi. 

 

Also, I think he's made a remarkable turn around in THIS game. He was a big target early on. If not for Shirin, he would likely have been first to go. He got past that and was able to turn things in his favor. He hasn't been seriously mentioned as a boot in a long time, and he is very very good at challenges. And now he has two sets of people making final three deals with him. Not too shabby.

 

I am truly amazed at the position Spencer has put himself in post-merge because frankly, some weeks ago, I thought he would be done very early into the merge. Spencer literally had NO ONE. He had no alliance, no numbers, not even one solid person with him, just no one. And somehow he managed to worm his way into the larger group of numbers and sort of just hide in plain site while everyone focused on the bigger physical threat, Joe and the more aggressive and unlikable people like Kass. And this is what I meant about Cierra's whole "people not playing..." speech. Sometimes when it seems like someone is not playing, it just means they're biding their time until they're in a good position to make a move.

 

The position Spencer was in coming into the merge, he NEEDED to lay low and stay out of the fray as much as possible until no one was paying attention to him. And that's exactly what's happened and allowed him to work himself in a good position. Now I don't know that he'll get to the end because again, I do think most players are playing for themselves, as they should, whether or not viewers think they're playing a great game and with less people and chaos to hide behind, the focus very well may come back very brightly on him. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Zuleikha]

It's why if I were a voter, I would vote for Spencer or Tasha over Jeremy.  They have had to fight to stay alive.  They made moves that kept them in the game and they have been at the bottom.

 

How has Spencer had to fight to stay alive? Varner targeted Spencer ages ago back at Ta Keo, then Spencer got swapped and Varner got booted. When Spencer was targeted at the next swap, Spencer didn't fight. He was completely clueless and would have been blindsided if Ciera/Kass hadn't handed him survival for their own benefit. That's two isolated incidences, both early in the game, and with Spencer barely doing anything active to save himself.

 

Since merge, Spencer has been comfortably enmeshed in the majority alliance, under the shelter of Jeremy's protection. The only move Spencer has made appears to have been to replace Stephen as Jeremy's main #2 player. He's better in challenges, but he's no Joe. Even if he has a late immunity run, I don't think it's going to garner the same type of respect. 

 

Jeremy hasn't had to fight because Jeremy has played an amazing game. Jeremy came into the season knowing exactly what type of alliance he thought would get him to the end and generally has executed his plan perfectly. He's steered the vote when he needed to and made a splashy move when it benefited him, but in general, he's played calmly and safely. He's always kept in the loop, and although his name has come up multiple times as someone no one wants to sit next to at the end, no one has ever had the numbers to target him.

 

ETA:

Spencer literally had NO ONE. He had no alliance, no numbers, not even one solid person with him, just no one.

This is not true. At merge, Spencer and Joe were both the two players that the competing alliances were fighting for in order to get majority. Spencer had everyone wanting to work with him.  Edited December 10, 2015 by Zuleikha

[Ms Blue Jay]

Other than being lucky enough to get two idols and using one wisely, what has Kelly done that's been so impressive?

 

So far she's used both idols wisely, because she still has the second one, doesn't she?

 

I think it's much more impressive gameplay than Kimmie and Keith and Tasha so far.  The Spencer/Kelley/Jeremy debate is the one that's more up for grabs and more about the tastes of the person that's judging (my opinion).  

 

None of the three of Tony, Kass and Woo were going to beat Spencer. And this season, I don't disagree that Jeremy is likeable and a strong threat to sit next to in the end but I think some underestimate how liked Spencer himself might be

 

I'm sorry, but this is getting nuts.  Tony was the complete controlling mastermind of Cagayan and played a brilliant game from beginning to end.  He won the game handily.  Yet Spencer's super magic personality is what would have threatened it in the end?  My goodness.  And Jeremy is not more likeable than Spencer?  How is that not up for debate?  I'll argue that it very much is.

 

I am truly amazed at the position Spencer has put himself in post-merge because frankly, some weeks ago, I thought he would be done very early into the merge. Spencer literally had NO ONE. He had no alliance, no numbers, not even one solid person with him, just no one.

 

Again.  I don't see how "Jeremy had people align with him" is a strike against Jeremy.  Yes, Jeremy had people who were and still are incredibly loyal to Jeremy.  Yet that's a strike against Jeremy and a point for Spencer!  I'm laughing now.

 

Why can't we just me more upfront, like, I like player x.  That's why I'm cheering for player x.  Nobody is objective here.  I think any debate between J-S-K is really just a personal preference at this point.  Their games are all so close IMO.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[peachmangosteen]

The Spencer/Kelley/Jeremy debate is the one that's more up for grabs and more about the tastes of the person that's judging (my opinion).  

 

I agree with this. I honestly believe they have all 3 played well and all 3 are completely worthy winners. I prefer Kelley as a person and a player so I'm rooting for her and others simply prefer Spencer or Jeremy. 

[fishcakes]

Yeah, I do think it comes down to personal preference. I think all three of them are deserving, but since I don't care for Kelley all that much (not sure why, and if she played a third time, I might change my opinion because she's really done nothing for me not to like her), I'd be happy with either a Spencer or Jeremy win. But really? I might be rooting for Keith. He's not the best player by a long shot, but I like him the most.

[truthaboutluv]

This is not true. At merge, Spencer and Joe were both the two players that the competing alliances were fighting for in order to get majority. Spencer had everyone wanting to work with him.

 

How is it not true? Yes Spencer was a floater whose vote was needed at the time but the point is he came into the merge with no solid alliance. If that is untrue, pray tell who was his alliance with? People needing your vote for a tribal council or two does not guarantee a solid place in the game. How many so called swing votes have gotten blindsided or voted out as soon as their vote wasn't needed? The point I was making is that Spencer came into the merge alone and he said as much in his talking head and conversation with Joe. 

 

I'm sorry, but this is getting nuts.  Tony was the complete controlling mastermind of Cagayan and played a brilliant game from beginning to end.  He won the game handily.  Yet Spencer's super magic personality is what would have threatened it in the end?  My goodness.  And Jeremy is not more likeable than Spencer?  How is that not up for debate?  I'll argue that it very much is.

 

With all due respect, I think you completely misread my comment. I did not say Jeremy wasn't more likable than Spencer, which is why I specifically noted that I do think it likely would not be a good idea to sit next to Jeremy in the end. However, I noted that I think a misconception is that Spencer himself is not liked or is unlikable to others and I disagree with that. 

 

Also, I do not understand what is so insane in what I said about the Cagayan season. I never said Tony did not deserve his win or that he did not play an amazing game and yes, part of that was making sure Spencer was not sitting next to him in the end. Yes, Tony very well might have won but I do think it would have been a fight based on the fact that Morgan, Jeremiah, Sarah, Tasha all very likely would have voted for Spencer and said as much after he was voted out.

 

And no it wasn't just Spencer's "super magic personality" but the fact that he again had to claw his way to the end. For some that would have counted. Let's not act like only people who dominated the game always win. Fabio won his season for crying out loud. Some of the jury members were very pissed off at Tony lest we forget. So just to be clear, I am not nor have I ever suggested Tony did not deserve his win. But no, I don't think I am nuts to say that they knew they could not let Spencer get to the final tribal council or he very well could have won. 

 

Again.  I don't see how "Jeremy had people align with him" is a strike against Jeremy.  Yes, Jeremy had people who were and still are incredibly loyal to Jeremy.  Yet that's a strike against Jeremy and a point for Spencer!  I'm laughing now.

Why can't we just me more upfront, like, I like player x.  That's why I'm cheering for player x.  Nobody is objective here.  I think any debate between J-S-K is really just a personal preference at this point.  Their games are all so close IMO.

 

Again, with all due respect, why are you making claims that I never said? You are quoting me but referring to statements that I never made. You are making this like it is a Jeremy v. Spencer battle and I for one have NEVER discredited Jeremy's game this season and his very likely being a strong threat to win it all if he gets to the end. All I've said about this episode is that I disagreed that Spencer's going with the Abi vote is some absolute proof that he plans to go to the end with Jeremy and I stand by that. If I'm going to be disagreed with or my comments challenged, I would really appreciate if it's on things I've actually stated. Also, the comments on being "nuts" and "laughing now" are a bit rude and dismissive and unnecessary. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[pricklypear]

Mine did the same thing.  And he totally knows better - I've only been watching this show for 15 years.  This is why I must DVR it and re-watch it over the weekend.  

Put me in the same camp of watching with talkers and having to watch again the next day.

 

I hope Spencer didn't hurt his game by voting out Abi. That was a risky move, but I can totally see why KEEPING her is risky, too, especially with so few left. It's too easy for her to blab everyone's plan or to flip without any warning. She's unpredictable, which makes her dangerous.

[slowpoked]

Put me in the same camp of watching with talkers and having to watch again the next day.

 

I hope Spencer didn't hurt his game by voting out Abi. That was a risky move, but I can totally see why KEEPING her is risky, too, especially with so few left. It's too easy for her to blab everyone's plan or to flip without any warning. She's unpredictable, which makes her dangerous.

You know what I didn't get about Abi's game last night, even though it wouldn't have changed the votes anyway? Is why suddenly, at this very crucial juncture of the game, trust the people that you've never trusted and also didn't trust you back? And not only the trust thing, but people that genuinely didn't like her, and I think she would have been aware of that by then. Why would she be playing at the mercy of Tasha/Jeremy when she had two people who had her back (Kelley, for most of the game, and Keith) still on her side? I mean, I get her not wanting to go with Kelley to F3, and apparently she was banking on Tasha feeling generous towards her after what she did for her back at Angkor. But girl, if she wasn't generous enough to you during most of the merge, she's not going to be generous now, and most especially after she told you to get lost. Then there was all that confusion on the "we" thing during tribal. To me, only Keith's "we" speech made the most sense, and had the most conviction, so If I were Abi I would have gone with that instead. 

 

But obviously, I saw everything that Abi didn't see. It just didn't make sense to me to suddenly flip now, and flip with the "worst" enemies, so to speak.

Edited December 11, 2015 by slowpoked

[Zuleikha]

Yes Spencer was a floater whose vote was needed at the time but the point is he came into the merge with no solid alliance. If that is untrue, pray tell who was his alliance with?

No one came into merge with a solid alliance, thanks to the tribe swaps. But Spencer entered merge as part of the Ta Keo 5 alliance. Kass/Ciera extended that to him at the tribe swap (remember Spencer's talking head about how excited he was to finally be in an alliance). He chose to go with the Brolliance instead--which effectively dissolved the Ta Keo 5 alliance--and he was as solid as anyone else in the Brolliance.

 

Remember that at the time of merge, Spencer had spent more continuous tie with Jeremy/Stephen/Kimmi than either of those three had spent with Savage or Tasha (who had been isolated on Angkor with Abi) or Joe/Keith.

 

If anyone entered merge with a distinctive disadvantage, it was Abi. IIRC, Abi went to every single pre-merge Tribal Council but one, so most of the people she worked with were out of the game already. 

[Oholibamah]

I agree with this. I honestly believe they have all 3 played well and all 3 are completely worthy winners. I prefer Kelley as a person and a player so I'm rooting for her and others simply prefer Spencer or Jeremy.

I think we can all agree that it's refreshing to even HAVE this many players worthy of fighting about left in the game at this stage.