S03.E08: Novus Ordo Seclorum

[phoenics]

LOL!  Zod is so his name and according to him:

Peter Mensah, who plays the ominous sounding God, tells Zap2it, “Pandora has taken it upon herself to bring him back to this life, to this mortal world to adjust things. Initially their purpose might appear to be the same thing but … maybe it isn’t the same thing.”

.

I KNEW it! Didn't I say that?!?! *punches fist in the air* I knew he was going to betray her. Knew it when he looked at her all funny.

 

 

 

KNEW thet SBR!/Ichabod conversation was a clue about ABBIE.

Yup! We called it!!! I really wish all of the panicked fans would take a seat, go over previous episodes and see all of the foreshadowing and everything. Ichabod is about to go scorched earth to bring Abbie back. My. Ship. LIVES!!!

 

 

Cliff Campbell you are the best damn showrunner Sleepy Hollow has ever had! Pay no attention to the madness known as Twitter.

We've only had Goffman, right? Except for the first half of S1 I agree... but I don't really think Goffman was show runner then. Not really.

Edited November 21, 2015 by phoenics

[phoenics]

Laying a foundation takes time.  Once that is done, the rest is gravy. 

 

 

 

It's the storm before the calm of Tempus Fugit all over again.  And like Tempus Fugit, it will all be for nothing once February rolls around and the second half actually "airs".    There's no point in tweeting Campbell because he already knows Abbie is still alive since he plotted it!  He's laid clues and breadcrumbs along the way to follow.  Man's going to eat his turkey dinner in peace.

Plus he's generated enough buzz with this for critics to come flying in and promoting the show coming back in Feb. Fans who are paying attention will hopefully come back.

I'm just getting weary of the knee jerk panic reactions. I get many of us fans have PTSD, but still... give the show a chance. And if CC pulls this off and we get a S4 - try trusting him. He's done right by Abbie this season - most of the Pandora interaction with witnesses has been with ABBIE - that's been amazing to watch. Pandora is so intrigued by Abbie... and scenes between them are so awesome.

And now I predict he's about to give Crane a new "redraw the map" scene where he does something that seemingly betrays everyone just to get Abbie back. He's going to do something absolutely DESPERATE to bring her back - no matter the cost.

He's broken (per Paul Revere) without her.

LDJ wrote this? He may be a dick, but d@mn he can write and did Abbie, Ichabod and Ichabbie a solid. And Joenny too! The whole episode had me enraptured. LOVED it.

Really good episode.  I liked the showdown at the end with Pandora and Zod.  Was sorry to see Bill Irwin's character though as he is entertaining on screen.  I thought Ichabod was going to pull Headless out of the box.  Strong episode for Abbie...I'm not worried about her at all though I hope they don't keep her in limbo again for multiple episodes.  I'm more concerned about the show not coming back until February.

Are you sure Nevins is really gone? I'm not. No body, no dead.

[proserpina65]

It just felt so random.

I thought it was a good contrast to Ichabod's talking about the Mason book being studied by the most dedicated scholars or however he put it.

[DkNNy79]

Somehow I forgot this was on last night.  Luckily its DVR'd.  Based on everyone's comments I'm excited to watch it tonight.

[Sparkling Beth]

 

Are you sure Nevins is really gone? I'm not. No body, no dead.

As The World Turns watchers call that The James Stenbeck Rule, after a character who supposedly died and then came back at least five times.  (Die-hard fans will know what I'm talking about when I say simply, "Hello, Barbara.")  I don't know about Nevins, though--my thought was that the FBI assumes he's alive because people don't just disappear out of vans leaving a pool of blood behind, but that Pandora made him do just that and he is dead.  It's hard to imagine Pandora letting him live after that scene in the van.

[Enero]

You guys - come on. Abbie is totally NOT dead. There is NO WAY she's dead. Ya'll talking foolishness. The show would be canceled immediately, lol. She's so not dead. Okay? Stop that.

 

 

After the fiasco that was last season, I still don't fully trust these writers even with them shooting themselves in the foot and seeing the consequences. That said, I do believe that Abbie is alive and Crane will have to do what he can to get her back. Since Pandora's box got blown to smithereens during the explosion, I'm thinking The Ynglinga Saga book likely survived and will come in handy with the plan to pull Abbie back from where ever she is.

 

 

Other things I've had time to process now that hours have gone by. LOL.

 

Pandora and her husband are definitely alive. They have the power of teleportation. As soon as they saw what Abbie was about to do they probably teleported out the cave as they did when the Witnesses and Joe came upon them at the lake earlier in the episode.

 

Loved that Abbie had a specific message for Crane on her voicemail when Danny called. Crane must have a habit of not waiting for the beep. So she instructed him to do just that, if it was him that was calling. LOL.

 

The FBI doesn’t have check points for agents who have quit or been fired, to ensure they don’t walk off with dangerous equipment?

 

So why did the taser work on Pandora, but not Abby’s bullets? Was it due to Crane’s element of surprise?

 

My guess surrounding Danny's mystery call, is that he's recruiting for a division in the FBI that fights monsters like Pandora.  But he doesn't know it. He probably just thinks they are recruiting Abbie for some special non-supernatural unit. 

 

Sophie is definitely going to be a player in the second half of the season. She wants to know what the heck is going on and Danny has given her the leeway to find out with his request for her to find Abbie.

 

Speaking of Abbie, my heart broke for her throughout this episode. She was so desperate to find Jenny and save her, so desperate to undo the wrong she'd done to her in the past. I could really feel her desperation and pain. Great work by NB.  Also, I really enjoyed her final conversation with Crane, when she was questioning their plan. He did not hesitate to support her, through all of this, as she's done him on many occasions, most specifically when he was going through his unbearable family drama. 

 

This was a really great episode. I'm looking forward to the show's return in February. I hope Abbie won't be off screen too long. 

[Sparkling Beth]

 

So why did the taser work on Pandora, but not Abby’s bullets? Was it due to Crane’s element of surprise?

I wondered that too, and then fanwanked that electricity, being a natural force of the universe, would have power over all beings in the universe, in a way that bullets do not. 

[Primetimer]

Sleepy Hollow's first half goes out with a buck.

Read the story

[DearEvette]

This was a really great episode. I'm looking forward to the show's return in February. I hope Abbie won't be off screen too long. 

 

I speculate in the Spoilers thread on a way to have Abbie on screen each week, interacting with Ichabod by not exactly in present day Sleepy Hollow. 

[Julia]

I need to rewatch at least once to take that all in. But if Abbie were dead, would it matter? It seems like in this world dead is a temporary condition if they want it to be.

 

There was actually a plot point introduced in Supernatural this season to address just that thing where a character explicitly told the boys that she was going to break the laws of the universe so that unlike all the other times, when she killed them they were going to stay dead.

[Free]

I need to rewatch at least once to take that all in. But if Abbie were dead, would it matter? It seems like in this world dead is a temporary condition if they want it to be.

 

There was actually a plot point introduced in Supernatural this season to address just that thing where a character explicitly told the boys that she was going to break the laws of the universe so that unlike all the other times, when she killed them they were going to stay dead.

 

It reminded me of Supernatural too.

[rubyred]

Damn I'm going to have to watch again on my laptop 18 inches from my face. I'm envious of those who had such an emotional reaction to Abbie's sacrifice, because I could barely see it! How cheap are these sets that they have to light them with a 40-watt bulb? In fact I thought they'd blown up Pandora's tree in a previous scene, so when Abbie started ascending to a dark place in a dark room I was like, where's she going with that thing? I couldn't see the tree until the red glow of the interior appeared. Oh and get off my lawn.

 

ETA: Yeah much better on the laptop!

Edited November 20, 2015 by rubyred

[MissAlmond]

 

We've only had Goffman, right? Except for the first half of S1 I agree...

 

I don't count the first half of S1 because (IMO) they were writing with pure abandonment/no pressure most likely because they thought no way in hell would FOX keep this batshit crazy show.  Until FOX did. 

 

 

I KNEW it! Didn't I say that?!?! *punches fist in the air* I knew he was going to betray her. Knew it when he looked at her all funny.

 

Zod did seem to linger over Jenny's body a tad too long until Pandora came over to basically remind him of their vows.  Can this marriage be saved?

[FierceAfroChick]

Hmm...so I have all the shows recorded, but only watched the first three episodes.  Got bored with the Besty Ross stuff quick, but after reading your posts on the last few eps, I'm thinking I need to marathon SH this weekend.

Edited November 20, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Snookums]

Pandora: I kinda worry that if she and her husband survive, that he's not on the up and up with her and may have just been using her. She seems like she's slightly afraid of him... and there was something in how he looked at her and promised they would rule like he said they would that made me think he's gonna betray her.

 

 

See, I read it the exact opposite: that she was going to betray him. All "Wait up, Immortal God Husband, I wanna watch and am TOTALLY NOT PLOTTING TO KILL YOU as soon as you absorb the power! Totally not doing that!" But one taser later and she's distracted by another man trying to get in her box (Hey-yo!) Her hubs is one hunka hunka burnin' love, though, so I hope she waits for a little reunion sexy times before she turns on him.

 

Abbie's not dead--hell, she's literally been to Purgatory before so this is gonna be a cakewalk. The only drag is she's going to have to be holding the pieces of the shard container together all the time, which should be hilarious to watch. (That's the reason she couldn't just chuck the Shard into the tree; she was holding the pieces of the container together after Imo-Zod broke them.)

 

Ichabod's "Abbie" was so sad but my favorite bit was in the beginning when Ich found the Mason book in like, under ten seconds and solves the whole Shard mystery and Abbie is totally gazing at him all "so hot right now. I need a window open and a big glass of iced tea, you gorgeous hunk you." Nobody tops Nicole Beharie in fab "Say it all without saying a word" expressions.

 

I was hoping for golem (sp?).

 

 

 

Poor Golly is still running around the woods somewhere as far as we know! Most probably huddled in an abandoned hut keeping an eye on some peasantry who are secretly aristocrats whilst reading Frankenstein and muttering to himself.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Snookums

[Actionmage]

I thought that Ichabod destroyed the golem when it was pointed out that Jeremy's blood was also Ichabod's blood.

 

I do wonder if Headless's Head/ The Kindred is running around, though.  I have forgotten what has happened with him.  I do hope that Headless and Abbie team-up before she comes back. That could be awesome!

Edited November 20, 2015 by Actionmage

[DeLurker]

I think you are right and I got confusaled: Golem is dead and the Kindred fell into the plothole!

 

 

Wait up, Immortal God Husband, I wanna watch and am TOTALLY NOT PLOTTING TO KILL YOU as soon as you absorb the power! Totally not doing that!"

So got that vibe off of her.

[cynic]

I thought Ichabod was going to pull Headless out of the box.

I would have loved that. I miss him and that would have been the kind of crazy thing that would have happened in the first season.

I thought it was a good episode. It was well-written and stuff came to fruition. I didn't have the emotional reaction that many had sadly. I think it's partly due to not being as invested in season 3 and also not really feeling Abbie's sacrifice. She's obviously not going to be dead. Even if I thought that Beharie wanted out, we still haven't had any resolution to her father's storyline. I doubt they would do it with just Jenny. Also, I just feel like we've been here before. Abbie sacrificed herself for Crane and got trapped in Purgatory. I expect this will be a similar deal since Pandora's hubby was trapped in the tree and survived. I just hope that the show gets her out quickly like Fox wanted as opposed to having her trapped for a long time like Goffman wanted. Crane and Abbie shouldn't be separated for long. Their partnership is the biggest draw the show has. I also hope they get some happiness in the second half of the season. I miss seeing Abbie smile.

[MissAlmond]

 

But one taser later and she's distracted by another man trying to get in her box (Hey-yo!) Her hubs is one hunka hunka burnin' love, though, so I hope she waits for a little reunion sexy times before she turns on him.

 

Pandora  did indeed sense another man was trying to play with her box but she wasn't pleased about it ("How dare you!").  I believe she's 100% in love with Zod but the man made promises all those centuries ago and Pandora is not about to let him forget them. 

Edited November 21, 2015 by MissAlmond

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, Abbie ain't dead.  This show isn't not moronic, even if the majority of season two might make that questionable at times.  They have to know this show would really be dead in the water without Abbie or Ichabod.  So, I"m guessing she's going to get transported to some kind of other dimension or wherever both Pandora and her husband came from.  We shall see.  I'm glad that her decision did come because of Jenny, and not Ichabod.  As much as I love the Ichabod/Abbie pairing, Jenny is the person I can see Abbie sacrificing herself for.  I just hope Jenny doesn't take it too hard.

 

Didn't really see what happened to Pandora and her husband, but I hope they are back.  I'm really digging them as villains and the chemistry between the actors is great.  Even with a distorted voice, Peter Mensah just has a presence about him, that makes him compelling to watch.  And, of course, I already think Shannyn Sossamon is amazing as Pandora.  Henry and Katrina, who?

 

Really digging Sophia and curious to see what she'll bring to the future episodes.  Reynolds is getting interesting.  Who is he talking to and what does he really want Abbie for?  Hmm... he's an FBI agent and this is FOX, so.... holy shit!  He's totally trying to recruit her for The X-Files!  That was Skinner on the phone!  I choose to believe that until February!

 

Count me in the group who thought for a second that it was going to end with Ichabod somehow bringing Headless out of the box.  Not sure if that would have really made any kind of sense, but it still would have been kind of awesome.

 

Sucks if Nevins is dead, since Bill Irwin was pretty fun in the role.  Although, it kind of dirty there for a second when Pandora claimed he had to go because she didn't want her husband to find other another guy "used her box."  Getting a bit into Michael Scott "That's what she said!" territory there, Pandora.

 

So, last new episode of the year and it will be Fridays from here on out. Hopefully it will fare better with less competition.  Either way, it seemed like it clearly couldn't handle Thursday nights, so maybe Fridays will work better for it.

[janeta]

I think Reynolds was talking to the guy in McLean or wherever with the girls and the birthday party; according to IMDB, he's the FBI director.

[Terrafamilia]

Hmmm, what to do about Abbie and Crane's manpain? How about a little Orpheus and Eurydice? Yeah, that would be a rehash of the Purgatory raid but this is television and if you can't steal from yourself...

[bethy]

Okay. first, Abbie?? Really, I know you had a relationship with Daniel Reynolds, but you are FBI now - that shit doesn't fly/would never fly. I'm sorry, Abbie-lovers, but her NOT revealing pertinent information, being completely dismissive of her boss, and acting out, seriously would NOT fly. Slam me as you will. but in the real FBI, she should be toeing the corporate line. Its one thing to have a secret life, but you cannot simply expect the FBI to ignore that. No way. Then grabbing munitions for her personal gain?? Sorry, lady, but she didn't need to hand in her badge - the FBI would've already demanded it of her. I guess we know what Abbie ultimately choose.

 

That scene at the beginning with Abbie and Danny and Sophie I had this exact same thought - that she was reacting like an ex-girlfriend instead of an agent. He's the boss, he gets to keep secrets on undercover operations. I mean I totally get why she was mad and hurt, but the way she voiced it seemed inappropriate to me from a professional perspective. 

 

I did like Abbie's turning in her badge at the end, though. She's been struggling with the tension between her dream job and her role as witness. I liked that with Jenny in danger, she just turned in badge/gun and walked away. I did get a kick out of Sophie's, "Uh, before she resigned, Abbie pretty much checked out an arsenal. Whoops." 

 

I'm also digging the Joe/Ichabod relationship. Ichabod was so gentle and understanding with Joe about staying human. It's very sweet. The contrast between Joe's "Roger that" and Ichabod's "Heartily seconded" was magic to me. Plus, as someone else said Joe's comment about not being used to the name-dropping was awesome.

 

I feel like I've got Betsy Ross PTSD with the flashbacks. Every time we're in colonial times, I tense. Maybe a few more episodes without her will cure me. I feel for Nikki Reed, but I'm so glad they seem to have realized she wasn't working. 

 

Count me in among those who were touched by Crane saying, "Abbie" at the end. Shiff.

[phoenics]

I did like Abbie's turning in her badge at the end, though. She's been struggling with the tension between her dream job and her role as witness. I liked that with Jenny in danger, she just turned in badge/gun and walked away. I did get a kick out of Sophie's, "Uh, before she resigned, Abbie pretty much checked out an arsenal. Whoops."

I know Abbie has been struggling against her dream and witnessing this year - but she certainly makes the right choices when the chips are down. Ichabod didn't in the past with his family drama. The question is, will he now?

I'm also digging the Joe/Ichabod relationship. Ichabod was so gentle and understanding with Joe about staying human. It's very sweet. The contrast between Joe's "Roger that" and Ichabod's "Heartily seconded" was magic to me. Plus, as someone else said Joe's comment about not being used to the name-dropping was awesome.

I just watched again and noticed something new about their conversation that I didn't before. It just foreshadows Ichabod's future. When Joe was desperate to save Jenny, he was about to cross a line and try to become a Wendigo again - just to save her. And Ichabod told him that in matters of love, it's understandable to be desperate to do anything to save who you love. But he said, "there is a line we do not cross..."

Ichabod is about to cross all kinds of lines to get Abbie back. Mark my words.

I feel like I've got Betsy Ross PTSD with the flashbacks. Every time we're in colonial times, I tense. Maybe a few more episodes without her will cure me. I feel for Nikki Reed, but I'm so glad they seem to have realized she wasn't working.

I hope they have - because I get the SAME tense feeling every single time there is a flashback. I'm always afraid that she's going to show up in an old scene. I like them using Paul Revere so much better. If they had just framed Betsy Ross as NOT Mrs Smith and let her be a regular woman - and not sexed up, etc., I could have taken to her more. And if they'd just left off the whole love interest part I could have handled it better. As it is, I couldn't see her as Betsy Ross or connect her to that part of history. But with Paul Revere and Washington, I can connect them and my mind can think of things like "Did Paul Revere have a cousin who died of the pox?" I actually feel intrigued enough to go and look whereas all of the BR stuff just turns me off.

Count me in among those who were touched by Crane saying, "Abbie" at the end. Shiff.

And the music that used to be played for Ichatrina was playing during that whole scene. Perhaps it's been played before during heightened scenes that weren't Ichatrina, but this time it was definitely playing for Ichabbie.

[Frozendiva]

Pandora should have had a clue that she and her newly awakened and slowly de-mummifying husband may or may not be on the same papyrus. Sometimes things ain't quite what they are tightly wrapped up to be. Mummy issues and all.

 

I do wonder if Reynolds has an X, like in the X Files. Perhaps he has spent time in the basement as the FBI's second most unwanted.

 

I was touched by Ichy's 'Abbie' at the end instead of the usual 'leftenant'. I had also hoped that Headless would have come rolling out of the box.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Frozendiva

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Really, show? Abby just pulled a total Buffy, from the "I am sacrificing myself so my sister can live" to the "take care of each other." And of course there was more shades of Buffy S5 goodness with all the "we've never fought a god before" stuff. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind seeing Glory showing up to insult Pandora while Zod just chuckles in the background.

[HalcyonDays]

That scene at the beginning with Abbie and Danny and Sophie I had this exact same thought - that she was reacting like an ex-girlfriend instead of an agent. He's the boss, he gets to keep secrets on undercover operations. I mean I totally get why she was mad and hurt, but the way she voiced it seemed inappropriate to me from a professional perspective.

Yeah, I was trying to voice it better, but for some reason didn't - you did though, bethy. Her reaction to Reynolds and Sophie was completely unprofessional. I get that she's worried about her sister, absolutely!! But Abbie's the one who has always held onto her emotions tight. She, out of all of them, should've been calm and controlled. I guess that scene was what I predicted before - Abbie's gonna have a breakdown sooner than later. Her tantrum was part of that. But as a mere FBI agent, she doesn't get to dictate what her boss tells her, or who  is undercover, etc. And she doesn't have the right to get pissy at Sophie, who was simply following orders and doing HER job. She was acting like an ex-gf. So I'll chalk it up to "breakdown".

 

Pandora should have had a clue that she and her newly awakened and slowly de-mummifying husband may or may not be on the same papyrus. Sometimes things ain't quite what they are tightly wrapped up to be. Mummy issues and all.

 

Bolded for the commenting win!! Awesome! Imhotep there totally has a second agenda in mind that will surprise and anger the wife. But is it wrong that I kinda agree with Imhoptep - humans have screwed up the world in so many ways. Dude's kinda right. He's like the Deity version of Crane, ranting about modern times.

[bethy]

And she doesn't have the right to get pissy at Sophie, who was simply following orders and doing HER job. She was acting like an ex-gf. So I'll chalk it up to "breakdown".

I'm REALLY liking the Sophie character. She remained calm, if also pissed in that scene. Plus, she got Abbie when Nevins asked for her and they BOTH did their jobs. So, yeah. Breakdown for Abbie initially, I think. Then she regrouped and did what had to be done.

I would LOVE it if they ended up with Abbie and Sophie as good, professional friends. Please no underlying jealousy over Reynolds, Show. Please.

[MissAlmond]

Abbie's gonna have a breakdown sooner than later. Her tantrum was part of that. But as a mere FBI agent, she doesn't get to dictate what her boss tells her, or who  is undercover, etc. And she doesn't have the right to get pissy at Sophie, who was simply following orders and doing HER job. She was acting like an ex-gf. So I'll chalk it up to "breakdown".

 

I'm on the side of breakdown.  It also shows Abbie didn't forget what Daniel said in his little rant (breadcrumb!!!) and probably believes "he" didn't tell her due to his personal issues over what went down in the Cabin in the Woods.  

 

 

If they had just framed Betsy Ross as NOT Mrs Smith and let her be a regular woman - and not sexed up, etc., I could have taken to her more. And if they'd just left off the whole love interest part I could have handled it better

 

I dislike SBR! and fast forward her scenes all the time (I had to read what went on between her and Grace LOL).  But I still have the nagging feeling  things aren't what they seem with the Ichabod/SBR! kissing in a tree flashbacks and wouldn't be surprise if we find out later it's all been misdirection for something else.   IF/when that happens, I'll go back and watch her scenes while saying to myself "Oh yeah, I see it now" LOL

 

 

Pandora should have had a clue that she and her newly awakened and slowly de-mummifying husband may or may not be on the same papyrus.

 

 

The better looking hubby became while de-mummifying, the more he seemed to lose interest in wifey.   There's going to be trouble!

Edited November 21, 2015 by MissAlmond

[theatremouse]

It wasn't random, it was comic relief.

It was comic relief, but it was incredibly trite comic relief. Not that I expect anything less (more?), show.

Somehow all the big fight scenes are always super anticlimactic on this show. Not that I want big long drawn out battles but they always set up the monsters as so big and powerful and yet the fight is over in 30 seconds. Always seems too convenient. The ending was completely devoid of suspense for me.

[DeLurker]

I feel like I've got Betsy Ross PTSD with the flashbacks. Every time we're in colonial times, I tense. Maybe a few more episodes without her will cure me. I feel for Nikki Reed, but I'm so glad they seem to have realized she wasn't working.

I have that too!

 

I'm thinking Abbie in the tree is a bit of a FU to Goffman and the Katrinastans.  The showrunner (forgot your name - sorry!) is separating the two witnesses but it'll be followed with an Abbiecentric storyline and the rest of the Scooby Gang trying to do whatever it takes to get her back.  Unlike Goffman literally putting NB in limbo in the Season of the Witch (a/k/a S2).

 

At least I hope so.

[vanarnd1]

This episode was mixed for me. I liked the emotion of the episode and the acting (especially by Nicole) was really good, but the way things played out left something to be desired.

I appreciated how much Abbie wanted to be there for Jenny, but I didn't like how she ended up sacfricing herself similar to the Season 1 finale. Also I wish we have seen her be a little more conflicted about her job. Not that she wouldn't do what she needed for Jenny, but just show that she would have some pause about potentially losing what she worked so hard for. I would have liked to see Abbie and Jenny have gotten more scenes spaced out over time to discuss their issues, because the way they did it with the big moment at the end of the fall finale just seems to always leave Abbie carrying the burden and having to take on things herself.

And in a similar way based on that CC interview if they are really going to push Ichabbie in the second half of the season, they could have paved the way during the first half by allowing the witnesses to have deeper conversations instead of giving us Zoe taking up screen time.

I think things will end up working out, Abbie be back likely in the spring premiere, and I am assuming she will get her job back (especially with that phone call Reyonlds had), but I feel like there were some missed opprotunties in how they set the stage for this episode and some emotional beats that were rushed or not really fleshed out

[CooperTV]

So that happened. The writers managed to cram so many thing in one short episode that I started having a whiplash. Good thing it had a solid basis of Abbie unraveling throughout.

 

Pandora's husband is a god (a very hot god, when he got going!), and he gave her the Box! And Pandora loves her husband's gifts. They're adorable together. For some hell-ish definition of adorable. But I had a feeling that The Dear Hubby is going to screw Pandora's over at the end. I admit, I have a hope Pandora will be the one who will screw him over. It'd be interesting and refreshing.

 

Joe confronted with Ichabod Crane's everything was the best. Joe had his lost puppy look every time Ichabod did a name drop, like "How this guy even real? How I and this guy are BFFs? What is my life?!". Poor Joe, I know how you feel! And awesome Joe/Ichabod scene at the Archives. The writers continue to deliver on their bonding.

 

Wow, so Abbie not only read Danny a riot act but also quit FBI in a huff? You go, girl! And then she snarked at Sophie. Which is, Sophie, you're great, but you too was unprofessional and bratty about it! And Danny, you're a shady ass. Even though you're probably a nice guy, you still work in some sort of Supernatural Control and Evasion Squad that wants Abbie to themselves, and you're manipulating her into it. Also, can we not with Danny's constant "Despite our personal relationship". Dude, just stop.

 

Not surprised Pandora was not only capable to did creepy stuff with Nivens but also tried to screw with Abbie's mind. Apparently, screwing with Abbie's mind is her favorite past-time.

 

The Team Witness attack on the Hot Hidden One was really kind of ridiculous, even though I liked Ichabod's and Abbie's conversation in the woods, and Abbie's "My man!".

 

Abbie being a self-sacrificing hero is nothing new, but it was sad and dramatic nonetheless. You go, girl, times two! The result was less than desirable but the angst of everyone and especially Ichabod is going to precious. He was practically destroyed when he said "Abbie?" at the very end.

 

Also, great parallels between Ichabod's feelings about losing Abbie, Paul Revere's losing his nephew and Abbie being afraid of losing Jenny.

[DearEvette]

It was comic relief, but it was incredibly trite comic relief. Not that I expect anything less (more?), show.

Somehow all the big fight scenes are always super anticlimactic on this show. Not that I want big long drawn out battles but they always set up the monsters as so big and powerful and yet the fight is over in 30 seconds. Always seems too convenient. The ending was completely devoid of suspense for me.

 

I got what they were going for with the toga party, but it felt extremely dated.  Do college students still do toga parties and dance to Shout?  Even when I was in college that shit was old. I think it would have had the same punch if the sight gag was more referentially modern, like maybe having them in Hogwarts robes and running around with brooms between their legs playing Quidditch or even siting lackadaisically around engrossed in separate electronic devices.

 

As far as fight scenes go, I loved the one they had in the Jack the Ripper-off episode.  In the parking garage.. that felt exciting and suspenseful and Ichabod got his ass kicked and Pandora came and gloated over Abbie holding Ichabod's bloody stabbed body.

[cynic]

I feel like I've got Betsy Ross PTSD with the flashbacks. Every time we're in colonial times, I tense. Maybe a few more episodes without her will cure me. I feel for Nikki Reed, but I'm so glad they seem to have realized she wasn't working.

I wish I was privy to the behind the scenes workings of this show. That often seems more interesting than what actually makes it on screen. While this season hasn't been as tumultuous as last year, I am very curious what the deal is with SBR. How did they go from making Reed a regular and publicizing the heck out of her to her barely appearing in the show? Not that I mind. She's a terrible actress. How did they not realize that before they hired her though? I do feel kinda bad for her though. Her and Ian seemed really excited on social media when she was being touted as Betsy "the ultimate woman".

[sinkwriter]

I'm very interested to see what happens next (and hate that we have to wait two months), but in watching the final scene part of me felt like we'd been here before. I like the idea of Abbie sacrificing herself for her sister to make up for being unable to take a stand for her back when they were kids. I like that a lot. But to have her trapped in that tree world, wherever it is, feels a bit too much like when she was trapped alone in Moloch's world. A part of me wished that they had mixed things up a bit more, to differentiate more from last time, maybe had Crane jump in there with her, so they could have remained intact as a team and fought their way out together. But I do understand that Abbie needed to do this one on her own, as symbolism for helping her sister.

I kind of want to go back and rewatch that scene where Pandora visited Abbie in the hospital. She talked a lot about Abbie's fate, but I can't remember specifics anymore. I want to know how much of what Pandora predicted came true and if there are any hints within her words that might show us the loophole that will get Abbie out of there.

[phoenics]

I have that too!

 

I'm thinking Abbie in the tree is a bit of a FU to Goffman and the Katrinastans.  The showrunner (forgot your name - sorry!) is separating the two witnesses but it'll be followed with an Abbiecentric storyline and the rest of the Scooby Gang trying to do whatever it takes to get her back.  Unlike Goffman literally putting NB in limbo in the Season of the Witch (a/k/a S2).

 

At least I hope so.

This is exactly what I believe - I know we all panicked at first and thought that it was an attempt to "re-do" Katrina in a less sexist way, but SBR came off as a caricature and not a human being. She looked out of place with colonial times, and just lifted us all out of the story whenever she was onscreen. Not even her husband's fanbase could save her. So - no, a Katrina-like character simply NEVER BELONGED in Sleepy Hollow. Ever! She should have been killed off in the pilot as originally planned.

The show went back to the diversity it had in S1-A. It went back to centering on Abbie and her family. It went back to Crane being a man out of time.

And even though this "looks like when Abbie stayed in Purgatory", that's just not a valid comparison to what happened in this episode. Then, Abbie staying to "face Moloch" made NO sense - since she never really faced him (not really - she just burned him with the talisman and left. that's it.), proving that the ONLY reason for this was to trap Abbie in Purgatory for a long period of time and to allow Katrina to be out with Ichabod for a long period of time. I have NO doubt that Goffman wanted to leave Abbie there most of the season to let Ichatrina take over - but Fox put the kibosh on that - and the dollhouse stuff vanished and Abbie got out in the first episode of the season.

That's not what is happening here. Abbie made a true sacrifice - not for plot reasons (coughKatrinacough), but to save Jenny and finish that emotional sister arc that got DROPPED in S1 never to return again. It's a focus on Abbie and her heroism.

And that act of heroism will now give space for Ichabod to grow and show how much he's NOT Goffman's Ichabod Crane anymore.

I got what they were going for with the toga party, but it felt extremely dated.  Do college students still do toga parties and dance to Shout?  Even when I was in college that shit was old. I think it would have had the same punch if the sight gag was more referentially modern, like maybe having them in Hogwarts robes and running around with brooms between their legs playing Quidditch or even siting lackadaisically around engrossed in separate electronic devices.

 

As far as fight scenes go, I loved the one they had in the Jack the Ripper-off episode.  In the parking garage.. that felt exciting and suspenseful and Ichabod got his ass kicked and Pandora came and gloated over Abbie holding Ichabod's bloody stabbed body.

Yeah - Frat parties still do toga parties. Constantly. I will say that I thought the whole "shout" thing was because they probably couldn't get music rights to anything else. Plus it was funny when the fight started and singer dude started to do gospel runs on the song, lol.

My friend and I watched it last night (she hadn't seen it) and she fell over laughing at that part. And we're both near 40.

[DearEvette]

And even though this "looks like when Abbie stayed in Purgatory", that's just not a valid comparison to what happened in this episode. Then, Abbie staying to "face Moloch" made NO sense - since she never really faced him (not really - she just burned him with the talisman and left. that's it.), proving that the ONLY reason for this was to trap Abbie in Purgatory for a long period of time and to allow Katrina to be out with Ichabod for a long period of time. I have NO doubt that Goffman wanted to leave Abbie there most of the season to let Ichatrina take over - but Fox put the kibosh on that - and the dollhouse stuff vanished and Abbie got out in the first episode of the season.

That's not what is happening here. Abbie made a true sacrifice - not for plot reasons (coughKatrinacough), but to save Jenny and finish that emotional sister arc that got DROPPED in S1 never to return again. It's a focus on Abbie and her heroism.

 

Yeah, I am pretty much in agreement with this.  The S1 purgatory 'sacrifice' really was just about character service for Katrina & the Crane family and really had nothing to do with the greater good or even herself, despite her words. Even in his S1 interviews Goffman would mention 'The Katrina-ness of it all." 

 

If you think about it, almost every 'sacrifice' people made in S1 and S2 was about frickin' Katrina.  Even Frank's 'death' in S2 mid-season finale ended up being sacrifice for the Cranes because Ichabod and Katrina refused to kill Henry when they had the chance. And poor Jenny even agreed to be locked up in jail again so they could go haring off After Katrina.

 

At least this one is about Abbie, her sister and the greater good of the town.  I also can't help but think this is another deliberate re-set of a sort, just like Tempus Fugit was.  A way to say, these are the reasons that first sacrifice should have been made for, not to re-unite Ichabod with his wife, but because if a person like Abbie is going to sacrifice her life, then it will be for more epic reasons.

 

Also like I said upthread this has very different consequences.  Unlike Purgatory which, let's face it, S1 treated like a trip to Cuba before the embargo lift -- you could get there but only if you have the correct credentials.  Ichabod has no idea where Abbie is or even if Abbie is.  He has no map, no handy Ben Franklin key, no convenient messages from beyond, and no assurance that Abbie is even alive.  In fact he has every right to believe she is really dead.  After all, someone else doing the exact same thing had died before right?

 

Usually I dislike the trope of killing a female character to explore a male character's pain, but I am ok with it in this instance because a) I am sure Abbie is not dead and b) we need to see Ichabod's feelings for Abbie.  Sure he is always giving a pretty speech about their bond, but we need to know what he feels about her.  And more importantly so does Abbie. And maybe this is the writers' way of finally exploring Ichabbie.  Maybe they are finally giving in to the undeniable chemistry and this is their way of jolting them out of their current comfort zone and into a more dangerous emotional place?

Edited November 21, 2015 by DearEvette

[phoenics]

Yeah, I am pretty much in agreement with this.  The S1 purgatory 'sacrifice' really was just about character service for Katrina & the Crane family and really had nothing to do with the greater good or even herself, despite her words. Even in his S1 interviews Goffman would mention 'The Katrina-ness of it all." 

 

If you think about it, almost every 'sacrifice' people made in S1 and S2 was about frickin' Katrina.  Even Frank's 'death' in S2 mid-season finale ended up being sacrifice for the Cranes because Ichabod and Katrina refused to kill Henry when they had the chance. And poor Jenny even agreed to be locked up in jail again so they could go haring off After Katrina.

Exactly! This is NOT that. I'm frustrated at the comparisons because it's not even close to the same. Sometimes I feel like people are suffering from Post Goffman Stress Syndrome and simply cannot bear to look closely enough to see that this is different. In a really, really trope-busting and amazing way. We rarely get to see the Strong Black Woman trope subverted - but I really think that's what is about to happen and it's about to destroy the "Only good enough to be the friend" trope too because like we've been speculating, Ichabod is about to be broken and in return I think he's gonna break eternity to bring Abbie back (which subverts the trope where black women characters aren't worth fighting for - romantically or otherwise). Maybe I will be proven wrong - but I just don't think so. I cannot see Leigh Dana Jackson looking at his child who just demanded Ichabbie and going "No" because "reasons". I think he'd be fighting for that as hard as we did.

And I know some fans feel like the show has pushed Joenny to try to escape criticisms of racism with Ichabbie - but I think this is just like any other show with 4 main cast members who are the definite mains. There is the coupling that comes together easily and has some trials, but is mostly stable and then you have the couple that hasn't figured it out yet and may be blinded until finally getting it right. Whoever said that Joenny was physical in how they interacted vs Ichabbie was spot on. Chess vs actual physical sparring.

And we can now make those kinds of speculations because THESE writers have proven that what they write actually matters. Seemingly innocuous moments aren't always just what they seem on the surface (I missed the foreshadowing with Ichabod and Joe during that first scene because I was so charmed by how fatherly/brotherly Ichabod was with Joe and in encouraging him - I missed that the scene also served the purpose of setting up Ichabod go go against his own advice now that it's ABBIE - his Abbie - who is in danger/lost/etc).

This is for real writing guys. We may not quite have the batshit crazy stuff from S1A, but we have far better writing, imo. Writing that follows the rules of short story writing where EVERY word means something. And the box was destroyed - so Headless could very easily come back.

At least this one is about Abbie, her sister and the greater good of the town.  I also can't help but think this is another deliberate re-set of a sort, just like Tempus Fugit was.  A way to say, these are the reasons that first sacrifice should have been made for, not to re-unite Ichabod with his wife, but because if a person like Abbie is going to sacrifice her life, then it will be for more epic reasons.

Yes! So much yes to this.

Also like I said upthread this has very different consequences.  Unlike Purgatory which, let's face it, S1 treated like a trip to Cuba before the embargo lift -- you could get there but only if you have the correct credentials.  Ichabod has no idea where Abbie is or even if Abbie is.  He has no map, no handy Ben Franklin key, no convenient messages from beyond, and no assurance that Abbie is even alive.  In fact he has every right to believe she is really dead.  After all, someone else doing the exact same thing had died before right?

 

Usually I dislike the trope of killing a female character to explore a male character's pain, but I am ok with it in this instance because a) I am sure Abbie is not dead and b) we need to see Ichabod's feelings for Abbie.  Sure he is always giving a pretty speech about their bond, but we need to know what he feels about her.  And more importantly so does Abbie. And maybe this is the writers' way of finally exploring Ichabbie.  Maybe they are finally giving in to the undeniable chemistry and this is their way of jolting them out of their current comfort zone and into a more dangerous emotional place?

Exactly my thoughts.

My hope really is that we get a S4, because I can see what the writers are setting up here and I feel like if they can get back into the groove and then add back in the batshit crazy stuff and the puns at itself, then the show could really make it. Bring back the Masons. Bring back Headless. Build up to the Ichabbie. Although my imagination can easily see Ichabod sweeping Abbie into a kiss upon rescuing her - that would be a bit cliche. You'd almost rather have the audience know that was what he was planning to do, but Reynolds getting to her first - or something. Or maybe not. But I do think this loss is going to jar Ichabod and make him do something crazy... and I can't see it ending anywhere other than Ichabbie. Seriously.

At the end of S2's episode "Awakening", Ichabod screamed out Abbie's name and I was sad that we never got to see his devastation or frustration over that. Now, I get to see it and see what lies beneath Ichabod's cool, calm exterior that he presents to the world. I think it's some deep, in love feelings for Abbie.

Please let us get a season 4.

[bethy]

(I missed the foreshadowing with Ichabod and Joe during that first scene because I was so charmed by how fatherly/brotherly Ichabod was with Joe and in encouraging him - I missed that the scene also served the purpose of setting up Ichabod go go against his own advice now that it's ABBIE - his Abbie - who is in danger/lost/etc).

 

 

I missed it, too, for the exact same reason. I loved that moment between the two of them.

 

It would be new and different for me if Ichabod (and Jenny and Joe) could figure out a way to bring Abbie back without breaking the world - if in fact, Ichabod said "No, I'm not crossing that line. As much as I love her, the good of the many, outweighs the good of the one. Even if the one is my one," and then found a way to work around it. I've gotten to the point where I dislike this notion we often see in television/movies that there are only some people who get to risk destroying everyone else for their love (I'm looking at you, too, Dean and Sam Winchester), as if the regular schmoes - like Joe and Jenny - aren't worth it. Or something.  

[HalcyonDays]

Exactly! This is NOT that. I'm frustrated at the comparisons because it's not even close to the same. Sometimes I feel like people are suffering from Post Goffman Stress Syndrome and simply cannot bear to look closely enough to see that this is different.

<snip>

This is for real writing guys. We may not quite have the batshit crazy stuff from S1A, but we have far better writing, imo. Writing that follows the rules of short story writing where EVERY word means something.

 

^^ This whole post.

 

[phoenics]

I missed it, too, for the exact same reason. I loved that moment between the two of them.

 

It would be new and different for me if Ichabod (and Jenny and Joe) could figure out a way to bring Abbie back without breaking the world - if in fact, Ichabod said "No, I'm not crossing that line. As much as I love her, the good of the many, outweighs the good of the one. Even if the one is my one," and then found a way to work around it. I've gotten to the point where I dislike this notion we often see in television/movies that there are only some people who get to risk destroying everyone else for their love (I'm looking at you, too, Dean and Sam Winchester), as if the regular schmoes - like Joe and Jenny - aren't worth it. Or something.

Aaargh - normally I would be right there with you, but... consider:

Remember the episode (stupid Boobsy Ross) where General Howe had captured Ichabod and was trying to get the names of the other turncoats? And Ichabod had a moment of doubt? And how TORTURED he was over that?

This man is about to do anything and everything to get Abbie back - I wouldn't be surprised if they finally have him say he loves her - or have Joenny say it (even better if it's Joe given how Crane gives Joe advice and then Joe flips it back to Ichabod anyway) and Ichabod be unable to deny it...

... and then we would have a tortured Ichabod - glad to have Abbie back, but tortured at how he went about it... especially if it leads to some greater threat or destruction.

It's continuing drama and this show needs that kind of continuity...

Buuuut maybe they could get around it where Ichabod was really about to do the crazy thing, but he's thwarted and then Abbie frees herself. Best of both worlds. We know how much losing Abbie pushed Crane, but he's able to keep his honor in tact to most - except himself... and then the angst begins that way for Ichabbie... this is just speculation, but I could see Ichabod realizing how much he needs/loves Abbie as being an obstacle for him - in that he'd worry he'd be putting the world in jeopardy because she's his weakness?

[bethy]

Buuuut maybe they could get around it where Ichabod was really about to do the crazy thing, but he's thwarted and then Abbie frees herself. Best of both worlds. We know how much losing Abbie pushed Crane, but he's able to keep his honor in tact to most - except himself... and then the angst begins that way for Ichabbie... this is just speculation, but I could see Ichabod realizing how much he needs/loves Abbie as being an obstacle for him - in that he'd worry he'd be putting the world in jeopardy because she's his weakness?

Yes! That, please, Show!

[possibilities]

Upthread a phone call was referenced, where Abbie is referred to as an asset by Daniel's boss. Can someone tell me at what minute mark this takes place?

 

I looked up the Pandora story from Greek mythology, to see what I could find about her husband. The show might or might not stick to tradition on this, since we all know they play around with "twistory" so surely they may do so with "twistology" as well. But for what it's worth, here's some info:

 

http://myths.e2bn.org/mythsandlegends/textonly562-pandoras-box.html

Apparently, she was married to Epimethius, who was the brother of Prometheus. Prometheus is the guy who stole fire and was punished by the Gods by being tied to a rock where birds pecked out his liver.

 

And here ( http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanEpimetheus.html) it says that Epimetheus was the father of excuses. I find that amusing as a concept.

 

In any case, the story of Pandora's Box that I always heard was about how she let the bad stuff OUT of the box. But Sleepy Hollow showed her putting stuff INTO the box in the beginning. So that's an interesting twist.

 

Also, the shard seems to have fire-like properties, and in the original stories, there does seem to be some deception going on between Pandora and Epimetheus, and more powerful Gods seem to be pulling their strings. Maybe SH will delve into that and maybe they won't. But since so many people are speculating about whether Pandora and her Husband are really on the same page, and what the focus on Abbie and Witnesses in general has to do with them, I thought I'd check the source stories to see if they support or might give hints. I know the SH writers may not stick with the original sources, but it's fodder for the hiatus speculation frenzy, anyway.

[phoenics]

Duh, I remember the Purgatory time. For some reaaon, Crane grips my heart when he call her Abbie. The look on her face when he was shaking his head no, gutted me.

Sometimes I go back to the S1 finale just to watch Ichabod give Abbie that look when he's reciting (with the witch) the spell to leave Purgatory (and Abbie) behind. That look was SO intense - the plot was stupid and complete service to Ichatrina, but that one look that Tom Mison put on Ichabod's face as he looked at Abbie... hot hot hot!

The only reason this show survived past S2 was the Ichabbie chemistry - without it the show would have died halfway through S2. Even now, it's that chemistry that is just keeping the show afloat.

I think that the show has finally decided to just go with that chemistry rather than trying to kill it. I still get rage blackouts when I think about Goffman and how he destroyed this show though.

[MissAlmond]

I got what they were going for with the toga party, but it felt extremely dated.  Do college students still do toga parties and dance to Shout? 

Yes, they do.  "Shout!" also is one of those songs that crosses generations as I recently witnessed at a wedding where everybody got up to dance to it. 

 

 

 Unlike Purgatory which, let's face it, S1 treated like a trip to Cuba before the embargo lift

OK, this line almost made me spit out my coke!  LOL

 

And we can now make those kinds of speculations because THESE writers have proven that what they write actually matters. Seemingly innocuous moments aren't always just what they seem on the surface

 

I'm in 100% agreement with you.   Even the "comic relief" might hold another meaning because one of the earliest foreshadowings may have come in the form of a joke we all laughed at and then thought nothing more about it.  But now --

..

 

Ichabod: is my destiny to be not but a ceaseless traveler, inexorably slouching my way through this mortal coil? Can you hear me, Jesus?

 

Jesus:  I hear you, C-Dawg. Don't got no answers. But as a wise man once said: "It's a hard knock life. For us."

 

 

Indeed. 

[HalcyonDays]

....but that one look that Tom Mison put on Ichabod's face as he looked at Abbie...

 

Because as much as Mison is (especially more recently) unfairly maligned for no good reason, dude is a briliiant actor. An exceptional actor. He really is. This show allows us to see some of his brilliance.

[phoenics]

Because as much as Mison is (especially more recently) unfairly maligned for no good reason, dude is a briliiant actor. An exceptional actor. He really is. This show allows us to see some of his brilliance.

He actually is - I watched that scene some people mentioned from some UK show? Yeah - nothing like Crane at all... and that finger thing he does... He was doing it when he had the heart to heart with Joe. And of course his eye brow arch is legendary. I also wonder if last season's Tempus Fugit episode brought something new. I love the man out of time aspect of Crane, but Captain Crane was very, very sexy, confident and completely in control. What's fascinating is that we're seeing slightly more of that Crane this season - he's not ineffectual in battle like in most of S2, he's more commanding and he seems just more comfortable in his skin. It's like he's becoming more like his "Captain" self. Although another interesting fact was how in Tempus Fugit, Abbie's arrival in Crane's time as a woman out of time actually kinda made the "Captain" unravel a bit.

I just realized why the writers did the "separation" thing in the S3 premiere and Abbie's dreams coming true.

It let them play it in reverse. Now, the man out of time comes back and causes ABBIE to unravel. That's why she was so upset about Crane coming back then - he and his witness stuff was disrupting her "Captain" moment and her dreams of her life, just like she did for Crane back in his time during Tempus Fugit. Wow - just realized that. And I think it was on purpose.

I will say though, that S2 faults and all, one saving grace of S2 were the hilarious (and I'm sure ad-libbed) facial expressions and side-eyes of NB's Abbie. I forgot exactly what happened - but it was in that painting episode and Katrina was mentioned by Jenny I think and Abbie's reaction was absolutely hilarious - it was like the most epic shade moment in tv history, lol... And I can't even remember exactly what it was - I just remember the delight of the fans when it happened.

Edited November 22, 2015 by phoenics

[MissAlmond]

 

So why did the taser work on Pandora, but not Abby’s bullets? Was it due to Crane’s element of surprise?

 

I’ve been thinking about this too.  Upon rewatch, I noticed  Abbie and Crane exchanged a look when the taser worked and Ichabod actually glanced at it, seemingly in surprise.  Pandora was not only staggering when she got up but didn’t knock the box from Crane’s hands.  Instead, she started reciting her own chant, perhaps in a way to counteract Crane’s?  Does this mean when someone else has the box, Pandora herself has no/limited control over it and  Nevins had to go because he had more power than he realized?  She knows Zod won't play that.  Will this later become part of the plan Ichabod devises  to stall Pandora and use the power of the box to save Abbie?  I’m filing this away under “breadcrumb.”

Edited November 22, 2015 by MissAlmond

[WearyTraveler]

It looked to me like the box was destroyed by the energy released from the tree after Abbie went in there.  If so, does that mean all the monsters are unleashed?