S02.E09: What Did We Do?

[slayer2]

Another flashforward we have not seen yet:

Frank takes Annalise to the hospital and goes all the way to the operating room until he is told to leave. He acts passionately concerned the entire time. As soon as he is told to leave the hospital he walks away completely calm. This might be where he brings Catherine to a gravesite to bury her?

The calm he feels as he walks away from the hospital is very creepy. Now how does anyone explain that

Probably what she told him to do because she planned on a superficial wound. It doesn't sound like he was informed to the contrary.

[aradia22]

I laughed so hard at this episode I started to tear up. Why can't this show be this good all the time?

[aradia22]

 

I thought the kid who played young Wes was fantastic. I could really believe that he was Wes (albeit by a different name), both in terms of appearance as well as mannerisms and voice tone/inflection.

I found him way more impressive in his short scene than the actor who plays the adult Wes.

[ChuckWagon]

Sinclair Speed Bump

 

Didn't.  But am now.

[Coxfires]

When Connor was hacking up Sam's body, we are to infer the maniac laughing as him breaking down...not because he enjoyed doing that

 

Exactly, it was to show that he was losing it just like his sardonic Jingle Bells rendition

[Scarlettatl]

You know you have been watching this contrived mess to long when the thing that got you saying "yeah sure" ... was when none of them had Asher's phone number.

Perhaps he changed it or Michaela lost the number, but I recall her texting him (to get him to leave the Keating porch) the night Sam was killed.

[St. Claire]

Christophe should've finished icing that ho, seriously. "Everything about this started when they murdered my husband!" Er... no, deary. You don't get to do that. You don't get to play hot potato with personal responsibility. And in that case it was precious Wes' fault anyway. Or no, wait. Maybe it was Rebecca's fault for breaking in? Or no wait maybe it was dead husband's fault for attacking her? Or maybe yours for facilitating it? Or maybe it was Frank's fault for killing Lila for him? Or maybe it was Lila's fault for existing?

 

 

[Scarlettatl]

I guess I'm in the minority because I absolutely understand where Connor is coming from and my heart broke for him when he was breaking down under the house. So many keep saying "this all started when they killed Annalise's husband." Except as many others have noted, Wes murdered Sam, not Connor. Yes they were present and were incredibly stupid to not call the police immediately then but Connor did not murder Sam. And then the cover up that followed WAS on Annalise.

I suppose many see this differently. They're all guilty to some extent the night Sam was killed. Let's remember also that even Wes' act of killing was to save someone, Rebecca. Nevertheless, what followed...

- 3 of the Keating 4 got caught up and made a stupid decision not to call the police (actually ridiculous, considering their intelligence and basic knowledge of the law, but hey it's TV). Make no mistake however, they were motivated by their own SELF interests and protecting their own futures. Michaela seemed the least willing but still went through with it for that reason.

- Wes was relatively composed and totally looking to protect HIMSELF and Rebecca. He also didn't hesitate to drag his innocent classmates down with him to do it. To me this was key. The other 3 were stunned and foolishly followed his lead by leaving the scene, then later he lied about the coin toss to get them to assist in the cover-up.

- Bash Annalise all you want but the only dog she had in that hunt was to protect Wes and the other kids. She didn't want to see them ruined over her sorry assed husband. It's important to remember also that Annalise was not there when the killing occurred, and other than Wes' word she couldn't know exactly to what extent the others were culpable and could be prosecuted. Again, they screwed up by leaving the scene and not calling the police. She had to think quickly, hence the cover-up scheme. Wrong thing to do... but at least her INTENT was to protect others.

- Sorry but Asher's grief and annoyance with a prosecutor doesn't give him license to run her down and murder. Sinclare's death was the single biggest fly in the ointment when Annalise previously only needed to deal with the found murder weapon that day at the mansion. This, and the potential for it to be blamed on Nate, was what sent her off the rails. Even then she was still scrambling to protect others... Nate, Asher... putting her own life at risk.

I'm not trying to let Annalise totally off the hook but the individuals involved and sequence of events have set off a chain of responses from her that illuminate her best and worst qualities. I damn her for some of her cynical choices but I mostly credit her for her intent. To date she still hasn't killed anyone that we know of, but has foolishly resigned herself to be a caretaker and thinking she can maneuver/manipulate her way out of any situation. My biggest beef with the show is Connor's incessant whining. Heck they even had Asher's mom blaming it all on Annalise. On what grounds? She doesnt even know Annalise. But then I saw the whole silly "blame Annalise" thing this season as simply a means to crank up tension around who the shooter might be.

[secnarf]

- Bash Annalise all you want but the only dog she had in that hunt was to protect Wes and the other kids. She didn't want to see them ruined over her sorry assed husband. It's important to remember also that Annalise was not there when the killing occurred, and other than Wes' word she couldn't know exactly to what extent the others were culpable and could be prosecuted. Again, they screwed up by leaving the scene and not calling the police. She had to think quickly, hence the cover-up scheme. Wrong thing to do... but at least her INTENT was to protect others.

I think there was also a significant element of wanting to protect herself.

If she had called the police when she came home to find Sam dead on the floor, and told them she found him dead on the floor, they would have immediately suspected her. At the time, she wouldn't have known what exactly happened, didn't know it was Wes who killed Sam. And yet, she didn't call the police.

 

And I get the sense that she did something wrong (whether morally, legally or both) in the past that culminated in Wes' mom's death. Perhaps part of the reason she was protecting Wes was to prevent this from coming to light.

[Scarlettatl]

Perhaps it's because she's a strong, manipulatuve, a control freak or because we've watched her handily clear cases and clean up messes at a moment's notice that she gets little sympathy in this. But Annalise neither killed or asked anyone to kill her husband in her home. Even Bonnie could get an indictment against Annalise for Sam's murder thrown out in a preliminary hearing under the initial circumstances with one hand tied behind her back. There was a struggle in the bedroom with prints and likely other DNA from the students and Rebecca all over. Sam probably had other minor injuries from the fall, as well prints on the bannister. After Wes' return, she certainly could've called the cops right then and there. Annalise put herself more at risk by assisting in the coverup and she knows it.

[dgpolo]

So I'm either going to be shown to be the biggest idiot ever or I'll get to say the biggest I told you so ever, but I still don't think it has been proven that Wes killed Sam. When Wes came back to the house Annaliese was there, we do not know anything that happened between the time Annaliese got home and Wes got back. She could've given him a fatal blow if he had started to come around again. Hitchcock had a long, drawn out scene in the movie Torn Curtain showing how difficult it is to kill someone. Maybe this is just my over developed 'cobbler effect' showing, but until they show me everything Annaliese did that night after she came home, I will have my doubts.

[Scarlettatl]

Lol I really like this twist! BUT... considering the amount of blood Sam's head was floating in when she arrived it might be safe to conclude that Wes' blow did the trick.

[Chicago Redshirt]

So many things to say about the episode, and so many comments to refer to...I'll try working my way back.

 

I think there was also a significant element of wanting to protect herself.

If she had called the police when she came home to find Sam dead on the floor, and told them she found him dead on the floor, they would have immediately suspected her. At the time, she wouldn't have known what exactly happened, didn't know it was Wes who killed Sam. And yet, she didn't call the police.

 

 

Perhaps it's because she's a strong, manipulatuve, a control freak or because we've watched her handily clear cases and clean up messes at a moment's notice that she gets little sympathy in this. But Annalise neither killed or asked anyone to kill her husband in her home. Even Bonnie could get an indictment against Annalise for Sam's murder thrown out in a preliminary hearing under the initial circumstances with one hand tied behind her back. There was a struggle in the bedroom with prints and likely other DNA from the students and Rebecca all over. Sam probably had other minor injuries from the fall, as well prints on the bannister. After Wes' return, she certainly could've called the cops right then and there. Annalise put herself more at risk by assisting in the coverup and she knows it.

 

This show aside, it is pretty impossible to win a case at a preliminary hearing, and it certainly would be here. 

 

There are significant levels of means, motive and opportunity for Annalise to have done killed Sam. 

 

Her potential motives include

1. Violent argument with Sam just prior to the killing in which Sam humiliated her and choked her

2. The discovery that Sam was cheating on her with Lila, got Lila pregnant and may have killed her

3. Her own affair with Nate

4. His wealth (Sam apparently came from money and with Sam out of the picture, she gets his house and all the rest of it).

 

We all know the significant other is going to be the first suspect, especially when the killing is done in their home and when there's this abundance of motive.

 

If Anni calls the cops at any time, they are going to consider her a suspect. Even if it were not good police practice to, they have a grudge for how much she's whupped up on them in court.

 

The forensics are not going to necessarily clear Anni even if they point to additional suspects. And let's not forget, if somebody looks under Sam's nails, there's going to be some Anni DNA up in there from when he was choking her.

 

So I'm either going to be shown to be the biggest idiot ever or I'll get to say the biggest I told you so ever, but I still don't think it has been proven that Wes killed Sam. When Wes came back to the house Annaliese was there, we do not know anything that happened between the time Annaliese got home and Wes got back. She could've given him a fatal blow if he had started to come around again. Hitchcock had a long, drawn out scene in the movie Torn Curtain showing how difficult it is to kill someone. Maybe this is just my over developed 'cobbler effect' showing, but until they show me everything Annaliese did that night after she came home, I will have my doubts.

 

Sorry, I don't think you get to say the biggest I told you so. (That doesn't mean you're the biggest idiot tho....it just means it's Cobbler Time!)

 

If Sam bounced back from a second set of injuries, he would be like Freddy Krueger or something. I would have to think the M4 would have checked to see he was dead. Also, the M4 spent a fair amount of time in the house cleaning themselves and him up. No way Sam stays alive through all that without someone seeing something.

[Scarlettatl]

Can a DA really build a case on what appears to be all circumstantial evidence (the affair, etc)? There is no hard evidence that I can think of to even make a credible accusation of Annalise.

More to my point, she put herself at much more risk by NOT calling the police. I'm sure that she is well aware of this. We don't know how long she was there before Wes walked in. 5mins, 10, 30? She's an attorney and a very good one. It's totally natural that she would pause to consider all ends before making the call to the police. She knows she's not guilty and she had an alibi. No doubt she instantly considered Wes and maybe even Bonnie or Frank as suspects... all people she would want to protect. The prosecution would have a hard time convicting her under the initial circumstances. However taking part in the coverup and clearing/cleaning away the evidence introduced a whole other level of complicity that could certainly land her in jail. Not to mention any or all of the other participants can now saddle her with collusion, whereas she was free from that when she first came home.

[DearEvette]

Perhaps it's because she's a strong, manipulatuve, a control freak or because we've watched her handily clear cases and clean up messes at a moment's notice that she gets little sympathy in this. But Annalise neither killed or asked anyone to kill her husband in her home. Even Bonnie could get an indictment against Annalise for Sam's murder thrown out in a preliminary hearing under the initial circumstances with one hand tied behind her back. There was a struggle in the bedroom with prints and likely other DNA from the students and Rebecca all over. Sam probably had other minor injuries from the fall, as well prints on the bannister. After Wes' return, she certainly could've called the cops right then and there. Annalise put herself more at risk by assisting in the coverup and she knows it.

 

I have to agree with this.  Whatever her personality flaws are... and she has a lot of them... I don't think we can accuse Annalise of being an outright murderer.   She strikes me as a pragmatist more than anything.   Actually she's in this mess because of her students and her obsession with protecting Wes at all costs.

 

- Frank & Sam killed Lila unbeknownst to Anni

- Wes killed Sam in her house while she wasn't even there

- Asher & His father covered up a gang rape and was using a get out of jail free card dangled by DA Smugface to get out from under that while trying to chuck Annalise under the bus

-Asher killed DA Smugface in a car-rage

-Bonnie killed Rebecca -- unbeknownst to Anni

- Nate's wife tried to get Anni to kill her but Anni said no

 

Possibly the very worst thing she had done was to manipulate events to throw suspicion onto Nate last season, but since he was nowhere near the scene she knew she could manage to get him off.   This season she is doing the exact same thing with Catherine... although I don't think she particularly cares about Catherine's innocence b/c she is now looking very guilty.  If you think about it, she is doing the very thing mentioned in her first lesson, which is to give the jury an alternative option.

 

Annalise is in all of this mess because she is busy juggling hot fire balls trying to protect everybody else. -- Wes, Bonnie,  and now Asher.    Seriously, she would just be teaching her damn class if it wasn't for all these people.

[truthaboutluv]

- Bash Annalise all you want but the only dog she had in that hunt was to protect Wes and the other kids. She didn't want to see them ruined over her sorry assed husband. It's important to remember also that Annalise was not there when the killing occurred, and other than Wes' word she couldn't know exactly to what extent the others were culpable and could be prosecuted. Again, they screwed up by leaving the scene and not calling the police. She had to think quickly, hence the cover-up scheme. Wrong thing to do... but at least her INTENT was to protect others.

 

 

Annalise stated clearly in the scene shown of Wes finding her in the house, that if she called the police, she would be the first person they would suspect. She states the fact that neighbors heard her and Sam having a fight that night, people knew she found out that he'd cheated on her with the recently found dead girl who they also recently found out was pregnant at the time she was murdered. So yeah I don't buy that Annalise's motivation was protecting those kids - hell she admits that her motivation was protecting herself. But once she made the decision to not call the police and proceed to tell Wes exactly what to do to dispose of Sam's body and manipulate the others into the plan, she made herself an accessory after the fact. 

 

And as I have said, ymmv, but whether or not Connor was looking out for his own self-interests, I do think his current predicament is pretty shitty and find his plight very sympathetic. People say he was just looking out for his self-interests, yet Connor ends up at Annalise's with everyone because Wes said Sam murdered Lila and Rebecca was in trouble.  A real cold asshole would have said, "oh well, not my problem..." which is what he should have done imo (well okay and maybe call the cops and let them deal with it). But he drove Wes there and they went in to try and diffuse the situation and make sure nothing happened to anyone.

 

Then in the space of a few moments Sam attacked Wes and Rebecca, Michaela moved and Sam fell over and then Sam later tried to choke Rebecca to death and Wes whacked him with a trophy and Sam was dead. And then Laurel and Wes convinced them all that they can't call the cops because they were intruding in the house and therefore would be held culpable. And then Wes goes to retrieve the murder weapon and Annalise gives him a step by step play on manipulating the others to dispose of Sam's body, thereby further implicating them all. And even then Connor later decided it made the most sense to go to the police and self interest or not, HE WAS RIGHT... But of course Annalise worked her "concerned, caring" act and said she would protect them and a scared, panicked Connor and Michaela believed her. And now they're screwed even more thanks to Asher backing up his car on Sinclair. 

 

So yeah, others may disagree and I acknowledge I might be in the minority on this but arrogant, self serving, jerk, etc. whatever Connor may be, I still think he got caught up in a really, really shitty situation due to some really crappy random set of circumstances and now is permanently stuck and that sucks for him. So yeah, if he's having a near nervous breakdown because of it, I understand and fully sympathize. 

Edited November 25, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[ForeverAlone]

I've always wondered if Annaliese couldn't have claimed self defense and tried to stage the scene to make it look like that. Considering that Sam did arrange to have his pregnant mistress killed, and attacked Annaliese, it certainly would not have been that big of a leap to suggest he was capable of murdering his own wife. And if she could at least provide enough reasonable doubt, she never would have been convicted, particularly once it was proven Sam was the father of Lila's baby. But I don't know if the forensic evidence could have been made to support it, but considering he was killed with a blow to the head, it was certainly a possibility, and Annaliese knows what a credible self defense scene would look like. And the issue of his body resurfacing later wouldn't have come back to haunt them. Of course if the kids had been a bit more thorough about disposing of Sam's remains, this might not have been an issue in the first place, because they could still claim that Sam merely disappeared. 

[Scarlettatl]

Annalise stated clearly in the scene shown of Wes finding her in the house, that if she called the police, she would be the first person they would suspect. She states the fact that neighbors heard her and Sam having a fight that night, people knew she found out that he'd cheated on her with the recently found dead girl who they also recently found out was pregnant at the time she was murdered.

What episode was this from? If you mean the one that intercuts with her questioning by the detectives, she said nothing like that.

Wes: I'm so sorry. (To Sam)

Annalise: Don't be. (Surprising Wes)

Wes: I swear we... we didn't mean for this to happen. Then he was choking her so... so HE hit him... I... I hit him.

Annalise: (desperate and tearful) You listen to me closely and do exactly as I tell you. Remove the body. He cannot stay here. Your DNA is under his nails, on his skin. So the only way to get rid of it is to burn the body. Then you need to get rid of the remains.

Wes: If they know you were here they'll... they'll blame you.

Annalise: Dont worry about me. I can take care of myself.

Wes: Professor Keating...

Annalise: No. Listen. What you did tonight had to be done. He killed that girl and for that he deserved to die. Trust me. I GOT YOU INTO THIS AND ITS MY JOB TO GET YOU OUT OF IT. Now go and do what you've been told.

Annalise was tearful and panicked. Perhaps her panic was rooted in something from his past. I also noted Wes' slip of the tongue, mis-speaking of himself in third person (he, instead of I). In any case it seemed to be all about Wes, not saving herself.

And btw, whether found dead in the house, the woods, the dump or just permanently missing, as the spouse Annalise was always going be the primary "suspect" in any event (especially once Sam's sister showed up). In fact she DID become the primary suspect until she pinned it on Nate. It's one thing to suspect however, another to prove it.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Scarlettatl

[Chicago Redshirt]

Asher is right about the body of the asst. D.A.  An autopsy will confirm the two different types of injuries and which one killed her and those injuries that were post mortem.  As stated upthread, hitting her in the drive with a car would have made more sense than throwing her off the balcony.

 

Plus, what about the phone calls between Annalise, Nate and Frank.  How will that be explained?

 

And what about the cameras in the parking lot.  I don't know of any parking garages that don't have surveillance cameras in them, especially those for city government, police or courthouse.  Plus, she would have had a card for entry/exit into the garage.  She came in, but didn't use it to get out.

 

There are so many issues.  Oh well.....that's what they are used to, so I bet they will come up with some solutions.  

 

I'm not convinced Katherine was guilty.  Caleb may have set her up.  She's dead though, right?

The ME in this show missed that Lila was pregnant and argued insect bites were instead fingernail marks. So...not very good. I could at least see that a detailed autopsy would not be deemed necessary in this case, if the cover story were bought that Smugface was pushed over the balcony by Catherine.

 

There's no reason to question phone calls between Frank and Anni...they work together. There's no reason to question phone calls between Anni and Nate...they've been boning.

 

And that's assuming someone would bother to want to look at any of their phone records, and get the necessary warrants.

 

As for cameras, there is a decent chance (at least, relative to the crazy the show expects us to swallow on a regular basis) that the cameras are either non-functional, or ill positioned to get particularly incriminating evidence or that the recordings will be written over after a given period of time. In terms of exiting the parking garage, at least in my experience, different ones function differently. Some just automatically have gates raise when a car is going to leave (especially after a certain point in the night). I think it's not too tough to take Sinclair's car keys and move her car after the fact.

 

You know, in a show where unbelievable things happen every week, I really, really don't believe they didn't have Asher's number. They work on cases together, what if they needed him for something? Annaliese was always having them search for things and talk to people, they had to have communication between them all. That would've been the first thing they would've done when they first went to Annaliese's place.

 

I don't have all my co-workers numbers in my phone. I don't think it's necessarily true they would need to have Asher's. We've been led to believe that the K5 basically spend all their waking hours together. So no need to call him, generally. In those rare cases where it might be, presumably Anni, Bonnie and Frank have it and they can have the big kids call.

 

It's true that part of how Michaela got Asher to leave the Keating house after Sam's death was to text him. My fanwank could be that by "text" she meant an IM through FB or similar. 

 

 I thought all the students were mid-20s at least, but I don't recall how I came to that conclusion. 

 

I'm not sure that the show has ever known what to do with Asher. He was largely out of the loop the first season.  Now they've really sort of destroyed his character, and I've no idea why.  First, the gang rape cover-up, and most importantly, the present attempt to keep it covered up.  (That's why I didn't really buy his remorseful speech to Bonnie).  Second, running over someone.  And THEN, not immediately calling the police, not even Annalise, but Bonnie? Who knows if Sinclair actually died immediately upon impact - even worse, it's possible she died from her injuries while pinned under Asher's car.  Wes being a sociopath (which I don't believe) is way down on the list when we have Asher's behavior so far this season.  Yeah, Sinclair was cold-hearted, but so what? I guess Sinclair's murder was crime of passion/grief, but sitting there, for who knows how long it took Bonnie to arrive really discounts that for me. Poor McGorry - he deserves better than this.    

 

At some point, Anni talks to Bonnie about sleeping with a 25-year-old. I think that Asher is the only one we have a firm age for.

 

Law students are generally going to be 21 to 25, I would say, based on whether they had immediately gone after graduating college or spent a few years in the real world.

 

As for the killing of Smugface, I would classify it as voluntary manslaughter rather than murder.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_manslaughter

 

Here, Asher was under the strain of not only his father's disowning him, his father's committing suicide, his mother dissing him, and Smugface's provocation that Papa Asher was a bad man, got what was coming to him karmically, and that everyone was better without him.

 

I think it a reasonable argument that such pressures could cause a normal person to snap, and that is exactly what happened to Asher.

 

 

I've been thinking about Annie's plan, and I'm going to chalk the stupidity of it up to her losing her shit, because it was dumb, even by this group's standards. They want to pin everything on Catherine, which, as others have pointed out, wouldn't be that hard because she was looking pretty guilty, especially by running away, but, they want the police, a jury, judge, etc., to believe that Catherine shot her parents to death, slit her aunt's throat, threw a woman of a third story balcony, yet when it came to Annie, she shoots her in the leg? I mean, would investigators not question why someone who brutally slaughtered four other people would only shoot someone in the leg while trying to kill them? 

There are potential reasons why hypothetically Catherine would have only wounded Anni versus killing Smugface and the rest. For instance:

1. Anni could have just gotten lucky.

2. Catherine might have only intended to wound Anni -- she has less reason to want Anni actually dead than any of her other potential victims

3. There's nothing to say that Catherine is an expert shot. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Can a DA really build a case on what appears to be all circumstantial evidence (the affair, etc)? There is no hard evidence that I can think of to even make a credible accusation of Annalise.

More to my point, she put herself at much more risk by NOT calling the police. I'm sure that she is well aware of this. We don't know how long she was there before Wes walked in. 5mins, 10, 30? She's an attorney and a very good one. It's totally natural that she would pause to consider all ends before making the call to the police. She knows she's not guilty and she had an alibi. No doubt she instantly considered Wes and maybe even Bonnie or Frank as suspects... all people she would want to protect. The prosecution would have a hard time convicting her under the initial circumstances. However taking part in the coverup and clearing/cleaning away the evidence introduced a whole other level of complicity that could certainly land her in jail. Not to mention any or all of the other participants can now saddle her with collusion, whereas she was free from that when she first came home.

Real-world prosecutors present cases based primarily or only on circumstantial evidence all the time. Granted, such cases are not always winners...

 

For example:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Caylee_Anthony

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/16/nyregion/without-a-body-murder-case-of-widow-relies-on-circumstantial-evidence.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/20/opinion/callan-hernandez-circumstantial-evidence/

http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/scott040718.htm

 

As for Anni, she knows she's not guilty. But she has no alibi, or at least no solid one. Her alibi is that she had just been screwing Nate. First of all, Nate is not particularly trustworthy as an alibi witness because of the fact that they are having an affair. Second, the fact that they were boning arguably gives her even more motive to kill Sam. Sam just mistreated her, and her lover treated her right. What seems more natural than getting rid of Sam so she could be with her lover?

 

But most importantly, even if we are to trust Nate, he cannot actually account for what Anni did after she left his place if he gives an honest account. Nate was crashed out after they banged and so did not know even that Anni left, let alone that she could not have committed Sam's killing.

[Scarlettatl]

Real-world prosecutors present cases based primarily or only on circumstantial evidence all the time. Granted, such cases are not always winners...

For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Caylee_Anthony

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/16/nyregion/without-a-body-murder-case-of-widow-relies-on-circumstantial-evidence.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/20/opinion/callan-hernandez-circumstantial-evidence/

http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/scott040718.htm

As for Anni, she knows she's not guilty. But she has no alibi, or at least no solid one. Her alibi is that she had just been screwing Nate. First of all, Nate is not particularly trustworthy as an alibi witness because of the fact that they are having an affair. Second, the fact that they were boning arguably gives her even more motive to kill Sam. Sam just mistreated her, and her lover treated her right. What seems more natural than getting rid of Sam so she could be with her lover?

But most importantly, even if we are to trust Nate, he cannot actually account for what Anni did after she left his place if he gives an honest account. Nate was crashed out after they banged and so did not know even that Anni left, let alone that she could not have committed Sam's killing.

You keep suggesting that she was only trying to save herself. I hear you but from what? Again she was always going to be the primary suspect as the spouse no matter what she did. Annalise was under no real threat of a murder conviction. Not only would a prosecutor have to prove that she committed a crime for which she was innocent... fercrissakes there were not 1, not 2, but FIVE WITNESSES there. Even if we eliminate Wes and Rebecca, the other students were innocent of any real wrongdoing before they removed the body. If Annalise had called the police while *dead* Sam was still there and was eventually arrested for something so heinous as MURDER there was little to keep at least 1 of those students (if not all 3) from coming forward and clearing her name.

Annalise only put her butt in a sling and at risk by trying to save Wes from being subjected to even so much as an arrest and investigation with a cover up. To me that's the big takeaway from that whole drama. The real reason for that desperate plan and their history is still a mystery. Hopefully we'll find out by next spring.

[secnarf]

Wes: I swear we... we didn't mean for this to happen. Then he was choking her so... so HE hit him... I... I hit him.

...

Annalise was tearful and panicked. Perhaps her panic was rooted in something from his past. I also noted Wes' slip of the tongue, mis-speaking of himself in third person (he, instead of I). In any case it seemed to be all about Wes, not saving herself.

Not sure it makes much of a difference, but I always heard "WE hit him", not "He".

 

I definitely think AK is motivated by much much more than wanting to protect others. The more I think about it, even what she does in this episode is self-serving. Helping Asher so that he doesn't tell the police about what he thinks happened with Sam, and to prevent Nate being charged/convicted, so that Nate doesn't end up making a plea deal that screws over Annalise.

Edited November 25, 2015 by secnarf

[Chicago Redshirt]

You keep suggesting that she was only trying to save herself. I hear you but from what? Again she was always going to be the primary suspect as the spouse no matter what she did. Annalise was under no real threat of a murder conviction. Not only would a prosecutor have to prove that she committed a crime for which she was innocent... fercrissakes there were not 1, not 2, but FIVE WITNESSES there. Even if we eliminate Wes and Rebecca, the other students were innocent of any real wrongdoing before they removed the body. If Annalise had called the police while *dead* Sam was still there and was eventually arrested for something so heinous as MURDER there was little to keep at least 1 of those students (if not all 3) from coming forward and clearing her name.

Annalise only put her butt in a sling and at risk by trying to save Wes from being subjected to even so much as an arrest and investigation with a cover up. To me that's the big takeaway from that whole drama. The real reason for that desperate plan and their history is still a mystery. Hopefully we'll find out by next spring.

 

 

To be clear, I don't think Anni was "only" trying to protect herself. She obviously was trying to protect the M4 as well. But there was also a strong element of doing what was in her interest as well as theirs.

 

In the way Anni suggested the coverup be done, IIRC, Sam's body would have been incinerated. There would have been no trace of him, and they could then sell the story that "Sam knew people suspected him in Lila's murder, and he was about to get arrested, so he GTFO of Dodge" story that they tried to sell. No one would have suspected Anni in his disappearance because that story makes sense. The plan got screwed (I think) when Connor refused to do that and they instead dumped the body in a number of garbage cans. (One of the many, many moments where if the characters acted like real people, the story would largely have fallen apart. If Wes had outed the fact that Anni knows and gave him a step-by-step plan for what to do to protect all of them, they would have followed the plan to the T. But I digress).

 

It is only when his body parts are discovered in a landfill that story more or less unravels. In short, if Anni had her way, the coverup would have been successful and no one would have suspected her of any involvement.

 

As to the threat of a murder conviction for Anni if she had simply called the police and not orchastrated the coverup that we saw, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

While it's not common (at least, I hope and pray), factually innocent people have been convicted of murder and other crimes in the real world. As an example, see here: http://www.innocenceproject.org/

 

And when you factor in that a) this D.A.'s office has been thirsty to get Anni (or at least Smugface and a number of the individual DAs have) and b) the police and prosecutors in this show have repeatedly screwed with evidence, I think it would be a reasonable concern that they would go out of their way to convict her.

 

As for the M4 and Rebecca as witnesses, there is a good chance they would not be good witnesses. If they told the actual truth about what happened, at least as far as this show is concerned, it would implicate all the M4 in felony-murder. (Someone was kind enough to quote some of my ranting about why I don't think that is actually the case upthread, but as the show presents it, all 4 think they are murderers). So the M4 have an incentive to come up with some alternate version of the truth. This comes with its own problems of their stories failing to match, their body language suggesting they were liars, etc. Even in the best case scenario for their testimony, I'd say a prosecutor would have a reasonable chance to discredit Rebecca and the M4 as liars, or at least people who have a bias for Anni -- she got Rebecca off murder charges and the others are impressionable kids who work for and admire her almost to the point of her having a cult-leader's hold over them.

 

The AK Way of Getting Away With Murder as shown in the first episode probably would not work so well in this case if she had simply called the police on finding Sam's body.

 

Discredit the prosecution witnesses: I don't think there is anything to be done when the prosecution witnesses point out  a) she was the one who found the body b) she had just found out that her husband had been having an affair with a pregnant murder victim c) she had had a rocky relationship with Sam in general d) she had a violent argument with Sam that night e) She had a lover who she slept with that very night after said argument and f) she had the opportunity to kill Sam because no one can account for her whereabouts for at least some of the time between when she left Nate's and would have called the killing in.

 

Provide an alternate suspect: For whatever reason, she's unwilling to give up the M4 and Rebecca, the actual people who did it. Who else might have wanted Sam dead? Bonnie? Frank? Doubt it, and doubt that she would have tried to throw either under the bus. Random stranger/thief? Nothing was taken. Lila's parents? It was too soon for it to be public knowledge that Sam had knocked up Lila, so their motive doesn't work, not to mention that they likely would not have had either the means or opportunity. The only alt-suspect I can think of would be Nate, and he doesn't work because a) Anni would not throw him under the bus without giving him a lifeline and b) the more likely thing is that a jury would think they are both in cahoots as lovers.

 

Bury the evidence: I can't think of what evidence Anni would have to create a sense of doubt.

 

I remember Anni saying something similar to what was mentioned above as to how she'd be a suspect, although I couldn't pin down what episode she said it in.  

 

Let's also remember: as the world-class defense attorney she is, Anni could have sold the defense-of-others story fairly easily. We've seen her week-in and week-out do more with less. If that is the case, why does she coordinate this complicated coverup? Does she forget her world-class skills? I think it's safe to conclude that it's at least as much about self-protection as it is Wes/M4 protection.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[Kanner]

Said guy was helping two other people set their boss up for insider trading so the two others could steal her clients and start their own company. So he was hardly so innocent. Yes, Connor used him to uncover that truth and told Annalise what he found because she was representing the boss. The boss then went on a rant calling the guy every name in the book and hitting on every single insecurity of his and then he jumped out of a window. And Connor actually did feel very guilty about the situation and it prompted his becoming committed to Oliver, only Oliver found out and that's when he dumped him. 

 

But I hardly see how that makes Connor a murderer or his hands not as clean as Wes who bludgeoned Sam to death and Asher who full on backed his car over a woman. At least Wes had the excuse of Sam trying to kill the idiot Rebecca when he hit him. But Asher just ran that woman down in cold blood because she said his daddy was an asshole who deserved to die. 

 

It's funny to me that I've read so many times how awful these characters are, this show is hard to like because these people are all so awful and yet Connor is judged and disliked because he's shown a conscience and is having a near nervous breakdown over the fact that a series of unfortunate circumstances and one wrong choice has him now tied to multiple murders and tied to a woman who has clearly manipulated and will continue to manipulate them all. And he is by all accounts pretty much fucked over. Somehow he is being the annoying or unreasonable one. Okay then.

Thank you for saying this.  Admittedly I am a Connor fan but the knocks against him I have read do not seem fair.  People seem to forget every time he has tried to leave he has been threaten to stay. Pinning the murder on him, his car, death, etc. Is he totally innocent? No.  Once he did not go to the police he was screwed.  Annalise has controlled the rest of his and the others' lives.

[PrincessTT]

Connor always has (and always has had) the option to go to the police and tell the truth about what happened, he keeps choosing not to. 

He's not the worst of the bunch and to an extent he was dragged into the situation, but his pity party gets him no sympathy from me as he is could end it all at any point he wants to by just going to the police. 

[Kanner]

Connor was not threatened to stay when Annalisse brought up his car. He was threatened to stop screwing up her cases. It's his own paranoia that makes him believe he'll be murdered if he leaves.

In the last episode, Bonnie clearly told Connor to get on board or he would be the next body that was found. Not paranoia when the bodies are piling up. The car was in reference to why someone would not go to the police.

Since nobody is innocent, I need them all to stop the pity party, Annalise included. It was her idea to frame Nate and she told everyone to trust her. She doesn't then get to throw that back into their faces later.

It just confuses me how people call out Connor and the other none murderers and give Annalise a pass. Someone even called them selfish for not wanting to help Asher. No it's called learning from your mistakes and not doing it again.

[Happytobehere]

So I'm either going to be shown to be the biggest idiot ever or I'll get to say the biggest I told you so ever, but I still don't think it has been proven that Wes killed Sam. When Wes came back to the house Annaliese was there, we do not know anything that happened between the time Annaliese got home and Wes got back. She could've given him a fatal blow if he had started to come around again. Hitchcock had a long, drawn out scene in the movie Torn Curtain showing how difficult it is to kill someone. Maybe this is just my over developed 'cobbler effect' showing, but until they show me everything Annaliese did that night after she came home, I will have my doubts.

With the way this show rolls, this has always been in the back of my mind. However, Even if true, that doesn't negate what we have seen from Wes. He is a self-serving, manipulative, user who care for no-one other than his now dead, drug -dealer, hate-filled user. His willingness to allow an innocent man go to jail on his behalf and then use said man when it suited his agenda, speaks volumes for who and what Wes really is. To me, if any character on this show is supposed to represent the face of evil, it's him. His back-story is irrelevant because people seem all too willing to overlook Annalise's back-story. Besides, at what 22 or 23, we have solid evidence that Wes is dangerous and deeply disturbed.

[ribboninthesky1]

As for the killing of Smugface, I would classify it as voluntary manslaughter rather than murder.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_manslaughter

 

Here, Asher was under the strain of not only his father's disowning him, his father's committing suicide, his mother dissing him, and Smugface's provocation that Papa Asher was a bad man, got what was coming to him karmically, and that everyone was better without him.

 

I think it a reasonable argument that such pressures could cause a normal person to snap, and that is exactly what happened to Asher.

 

That makes sense, and I could see Annalise using such an argument in representing Asher.  That's why I suggested that, if not for the Nate complication, she would have told Asher to turn himself in and represented him.   

 

All that said, I still believe the character development of Asher has been poorly executed. I was never a fan of the character, and they've managed to make him even more unsympathetic to me.    

[pastor7]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned or somebody here noted it, when Asher came back from doing a car wash, there still was a remaining of blood in the rear bumper of the car, that could become relevant at some point. 

[secnarf]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned or somebody here noted it, when Asher came back from doing a car wash, there still was a remaining of blood in the rear bumper of the car, that could become relevant at some point. 

That blood on the bumper was shown before the car wash - just after Asher got the ticket for the car wash, but before they actually took the car in, wasn't it? Or did they show blood on the bumper a second time afterwards?

[pastor7]

I just rewatched the episode, you right. He went into gas store and he showed the ticket for the car wash then the camera shows blood in the bumper. I though the remaining blood was after the carwash done.

[possibilities]

I've always wondered if Annaliese couldn't have claimed self defense and tried to stage the scene to make it look like that. Considering that Sam...

The problem with a self-defense claim is that Sam was hit on the back of his head (as I recall, Rebecca was on her back on the floor and Sam was straddling her. Wes came up behind Sam and struck him on the back of the head using the trophy. This stopped Sam from strangling Rebecca, at the same time as killing Sam). Generally, if someone is facing away from you, a claim of self-defense won't fly. Maybe Annalise could have claimed she was protecting Rebecca, and hit too hard which resulted in accidentally also killing Sam, but I don't think she could claim she was defending herself, because she never would have had the ability to hit Sam from behind if she herself was the object of an attack-in-progress by Sam.

 

But for her to claim she was defending anyone else, that would require co-operation from whoever she defended, and since they'd all left the scene, I don't think she would trust them to be reliable witnesses to any story she might concoct.

Edited November 29, 2015 by possibilities

[possibilities]

Annalise: (desperate and tearful) You listen to me closely and do exactly as I tell you. Remove the body. He cannot stay here. Your DNA is under his nails, on his skin. So the only way to get rid of it is to burn the body. Then you need to get rid of the remains.

I do have a question, though. Why would Wes's DNA be under Sam's nails or anywhere else on Sam? They didn't touch at all, did they? The only contact was between Sam and Rebecca.

[jhlipton]

Connor always has (and always has had) the option to go to the police and tell the truth about what happened, he keeps choosing not to.

 

Her knows the others will deny it, and at this point, he has no evidence.

[ForeverAlone]

Connor and Michaela were going to go to the police and confess everything (presumably), but were ratted out by Laurel and waylaid by Annaliese. 

[skotnikov]

CSIs can easily find out that time and the way of DA's death does not coincide with witnesses' timeline. She was run over, so there should be prints of tires on her body, and no fall from any height can undo them.   

Edited November 30, 2015 by skotnikov

[Chicago Redshirt]

The problem with a self-defense claim is that Sam was hit on the back of his head (as I recall, Rebecca was on her back on the floor and Sam was straddling her. Wes came up behind Sam and struck him on the back of the head using the trophy. This stopped Sam from strangling Rebecca, at the same time as killing Sam). Generally, if someone is facing away from you, a claim of self-defense won't fly. Maybe Annalise could have claimed she was protecting Rebecca, and hit too hard which resulted in accidentally also killing Sam, but I don't think she could claim she was defending herself, because she never would have had the ability to hit Sam from behind if she herself was the object of an attack-in-progress by Sam.

 

But for her to claim she was defending anyone else, that would require co-operation from whoever she defended, and since they'd all left the scene, I don't think she would trust them to be reliable witnesses to any story she might concoct.

 

People are using "self-defense" when they should be saying "defense of others." I would doubt that a jury would have convicted Wes if he (and the others) all told the truth: that Sam went berserk attacking them, and was choking Rebecca when Wes hit him over the head merely trying to get him to stop, only the blow killed Sam.

 

Rebecca and Nate might still be guilty of felony-murder, since they conspired to have Rebecca commit a felony and someone died during its commission. 

 

But again, AK has gotten people off with much worse facts.

 

CSIs can easily find out that time and the way of DA's death does not coincide with witnesses' timeline. She was run over, so there should be prints of tires on her body, and no fall from any height can undo them.   

 

I'm no forensics expert, but I do not think that a) they could figure out that the precise time of death (only within a 2-3 hour window) and b) even if they could, it would require someone to specifically look at it. There would not be a particular reason for the ME to do whatever forensic testing needed to pinpoint the time of death, as they have witnesses saying when the time of death was and there would not be an obvious disparity.

 

As for the tire tracks, I think that she was hit by the car but did not necessarily have the tires roll over her. Even accepting for discussion's sake that the tires did roll over Smugface, there is again the question of how closely the ME will look. This is the same ME office that completely missed that Lila was pregnant, which strikes me as failing ME 101. And that was a case where there was mystery about how Lila died. 

[secnarf]

I'm no forensics expert, but I do not think that a) they could figure out that the precise time of death (only within a 2-3 hour window) and b) even if they could, it would require someone to specifically look at it. There would not be a particular reason for the ME to do whatever forensic testing needed to pinpoint the time of death, as they have witnesses saying when the time of death was and there would not be an obvious disparity.

 

As for the tire tracks, I think that she was hit by the car but did not necessarily have the tires roll over her. Even accepting for discussion's sake that the tires did roll over Smugface, there is again the question of how closely the ME will look. This is the same ME office that completely missed that Lila was pregnant, which strikes me as failing ME 101. And that was a case where there was mystery about how Lila died. 

I think that sooner after the death it is easier to be more precise. Since Annalise called 911, Sinclair will be found very quickly after her supposed TOD, but if they check her liver temperature - which is I think fairly standard - it will indicate that she has been dead for several hours longer than Annalise's story suggests.

Once it gets to be further from the time of death, it is harder to pin the exact time down as precisely.

 

Having said that, you're totally right that the ME office failed miserably at failing to recognize that Lila was pregnant. Based on that, it wouldn't be at all surprising if they missed the discrepancy in TOD as well as any potential car tracks.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I don't know if the coverup would have taken that much time. Let's assume Bonnie gets called immediately after Smugface gets hit, and it takes 10-15 minutes to get to the garage. It's maybe another 10-15 minutes to pack Smugface in the trunk. Let's say it's 45 minutes to drive from the garage to stately Hapstall Manor. Between the crazy conceiving of the plan and executing it's another 30 minutes. So there's generously 2 hours that Smugface has been dead more than the alibi says. 

Core body temp decreases about 1 degree Celsius per hour of death. So if someone measures it, Smugface will be 2 degrees cooler than she should be.

 

The first question is if someone would bother to measure it, given they have a plausible-on-the-surface time of death.

 

The second is whether they would write that relatively small discrepancy off.

[possibilities]

With Smugface dead, I think how vigorously they look for verification of the story will depend on who the new prosecutor is, and what that person's motivations are. If they pick up the "get Annalise" vendetta, they will dig. If they hated Smugface, maybe not. If they are actually a person of integrity who wants to do a good job and get to the truth? They might have wandered onto the HTGAWM set by accident and it will be embarrassing for everyone involved.

[jhlipton]

Rebecca and Nate might still be guilty of felony-murder, since they conspired to have Rebecca commit a felony and someone died during its commission. 

 

Again, all they have to do is state that they were there to help Rebecca with her case, per Anni's orders, and Sam came home and got belligerent. Anni would back that story, and the flash drive would never come up.  So there would be no felony component to Sam's death.

If they are actually a person of integrity who wants to do a good job and get to the truth? They might have wandered onto the HTGAWM set by accident and it will be embarrassing for everyone involved.

 

LOL

[Chicago Redshirt]

No question that a set of fairly simple lies would prevent anyone from being suspected of murder in Sam's death. However, I was talking about what actually happened. 

No question that a set of fairly simple lies would prevent anyone from being suspected of murder in Sam's death. However, I was talking about what actually happened. 

[ChuckWagon]

Core body temp decreases about 1 degree Celsius per hour of death. So if someone measures it, Smugface will be 2 degrees cooler than she should be.

 

Did Asher keep the car running? If so, and it kept the body warm (?), would that work to their advantage in guesstimating TOD?  

[Chicago Redshirt]

My knowledge of forensics is limited to what I've Googled, but I don't think having a running car is going to much affect someone's core temperature. 

 

The main things I would argue based on what I googled are:

 

1. There's a good chance that the ME's office would not bother to check core temp to determine time of death when they have witnesses saying time of death is X

2. Even if they do, the 2 degrees does not seem such a massive discrepancy from what it is supposed to be that it would call the K5's version of events into question.

[Dowel Jones]

3.  There's a good chance the ME's office didn't like DA Smugface either, so there's that.

[wanderingstar]

Re-watched the finale. Damn - it's still one of the most disturbing hours of television I've watched all year. 

 

I can't see how this plan of Annalise's is going to work.

 

 

[MH319]

Now that the winter finale is done, I'm going to revisit who did what, who knows who did what, and who thinks who did what. Just a little refresher before all the craziness begins again in Feb!

Lila - Frank killed her on Sam's orders. Sam and Frank both know that Frank killed Lila. However, the murder of Lila was pinned on Lila's boyfriend (Griffin? I think was his name), Sam and Rebecca. None of these people were actually found guilty (although I believein the show, it's implied that Sam was believed to be guilty)

Sam - Wes killed Sam to defend Rebecca. Wes, Laurel, Connor, Michaela, Annalise and Rebecca knows that Wes dealt the final blow. Bonnie and Frank knows the students minus Asher did it, but I don't think it's ever stated or implied that they know it was Wes who actually killed Sam. Bonnie "confessed" to Asher that she killed Sam, but Annalise revealed to Asher that it was not Bonnie, but the other students who killed Sam. Asher, like Frank and Bonnie, now knows that the other four in the Keating 5 killed Sam, but he does not know who specially killed him. Nate was framed (but got off) for Sam's murder.

Rebecca - Bonnie killed her. Frank, Annalise and Bonnie knows that Bonnie killed her. Annalise revealed to Wes (and I think Laurel, very heavily implied she was there) that Rebecca's dead. Connor and Michaela do not know that Rebecca's dead...they presumed she ran away. Wes (and very liked Laurel) knows that Rebecca's dead, but do not know who killed her.

DA Emily Sinclair - Asher ran her over with his car. Bonnie, Annalise, and the rest of the Keating 5 knows that Asher killed Sinclair. It was not revealed to the audience whether Frank knows or not (my guess is yes, just because it's Frank).

The Hapatall parents - We do not know who killed them. Catherine and Caleb are the main suspects...although Philip and the aunt are looking like they could be suspects too.

The Hapatall aunt - We do not know who killed her. Caleb was the suspect but got off as Annalise proved that the DNA found in the car was planted. Philip could be the suspect here too. Catherine had an alibi.

Annalise - Wes shot her. Wes, Annalise (and likely Laurel) knows that Wea shot her. Connor and Michaela knows that either Wes or Laurel shot her. Asher, Bonnie and Frank does not.

[scout1207]

Nice summary MH319!

 

 

However, Even if true, that doesn't negate what we have seen from Wes. He is a self-serving, manipulative, user who care for no-one other than his now dead, drug -dealer, hate-filled user. His willingness to allow an innocent man go to jail on his behalf and then use said man when it suited his agenda, speaks volumes for who and what Wes really is. To me, if any character on this show is supposed to represent the face of evil, it's him. His back-story is irrelevant because people seem all too willing to overlook Annalise's back-story. Besides, at what 22 or 23, we have solid evidence that Wes is dangerous and deeply disturbed.

 

I don't agree. To me, the face of evil is Frank and Sam. Frank who flat out strangled a pregnant girl, and Sam, who ordered it. Wes is angry, but only because he's been manipulated and lied to by Rebecca and Anna. Also, what solid evidence there is that's he's disturbed and dangerous?  Technically, he's right that something is wrong about Rebecca and Anna is lying about it. Sam's death was in defense of the annoying goth girl. Letting Nate take the fall for it was only because Anna said she could fix it, plus the other K4 weren't that upset about it. I remember Michaela being relieved.

 

Even Bonnie, who flat out suffocated Rebecca, has wrinkles of evil on her face, and she's starting to realize maybe people need protection from her, Anna and Frank. Of course, Frank has no morals and doesn't care.

 

I think Wes is way down on the list, and yeah, he was going to shoot Anna again, but she goaded him on and he was out of his mind with at that point. At this point, all of the K5 have PTSD and need therapy.

 

[pitchy]

So many shots of Sinclair with those pursed lips and that smug expression that I couldn't help but be reminded of Dana Carvey's Church Lady.

I don't have a clear memory of her (November seems ages ago), but I keep getting the impression of Vicky Lawrence, who played Carol Burnett's sister in the old comedy  show...