S02.E07: 207

[blixie]

 

Alison's all leafy vegetable cuisine

Haha IKR? I guess given Athena I shouldn't have been surprised they would have a Hippie Kale Thanksgiving. Ironically I plan to serve a hearty Kale and Fennel salad at my own!

 

 

He comes home and tells Helen he is in love with Alison as I described above.

 

Noah confesses to his cheating immediately after his heart/panic attack scare in Episode 7, he DID dismiss it as a fling, and it was nothing, meant nothing, and that he wanted to pretend it never happened. And it is only after FAILED counselling and happenstance of seeing NEEDY needy Allison again in Montauk in episode 8, that she becomes attractive to him again, and even THEN he needs to watch a guy commit suicide to decide s he's it for him. It's so romantic. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by blixie

[Milburn Stone]

I too was aware from the get-go of the unrealistic luxuriousness of Noah/Allison's apartment, but ended up feeling dramatic license made it not only permissible, but kind of necessary. I came to this by imagining what the show might have done instead had it been going for plausible realism, and decided this would have been unsatisfying in terms of the storyline. We are meant to understand that Noah is having tremendous success with his book, that it's been a real game-changer for him. We are meant to understand all the temptations this puts in his path to keep it going and build on it--the ways it is changing not just his circumstances, but him. If the external form of this change were something like Seinfeld's apartment--which, as was pointed out upthread, would be far more realistic even for the tremendous success his novel is enjoying--I just don't think we would feel the sea change as we need to for the characters' trajectory.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[TVForever]

WTH does Whitney see in Scotty? 

 

       

         She's a teenager. He's an older man. That's usually all it takes. He had sex with her, and now she's convinced she's in love, and he's her soulmate, blah, blah, blah. He could do anything (or nothing) to her at this point, and she would still come running back for more. Heightened teenaged emotions are a powerful thing. And Whitney's even more high-strung than most.

[lovinbob]

Could the apartment be Alison's perception, lol? Maybe it is "fancy" but not the overwhelming place we saw? Just kidding, really, due to the reactions of her friend and Mom, but starting to'wonder as it so does not "fit" in with the finances as we know them. Also, unless Noah has already been paid upfront for the movie rights from a major studio, there just is not literally millions in a single book very often, for the author anyway. He would have to sell many millions of books, which I doubt has happened over the course of a year or so. I have read that to be a "bestseller" means something like 25k copies sold over a particular time period. Not sure how it work, though I have written and published a few books (hardly any sales, lol) but it takes many books as a rule to make the author truly wealthy and usually, several movie deals too.

I actually think that's a good possibility. Her mother and friend's reactions are subject to her interpretation as well, and I think it makes sense that Alison perceives this apartment through her fish out of water lens.

 

Whatever the case, I think there is more to learn with respect to their apartment—I think there are some shady financial dealings that we will learn about. Maybe they sued Robert and Yvonne for unlawful termination. (Just kidding!)

[molshoop]

 

The Lockharts being Catholic didn't surprise me. They are an old school, traditional family. That seems to be represented fairly consistently.

 

              Yeah, and they probably  refused to smuggle cocaine on Fridays.

 

         I think that so many viewers of this show really liked Pacey and Peter ( me too) that Cole is getting

         a pass on his faults and bad behavior. 

[truthaboutluv]

              Yeah, and they probably  refused to smuggle cocaine on Fridays.

 

         I think that so many viewers of this show really liked Pacey and Peter ( me too) that Cole is getting

         a pass on his faults and bad behavior. 

 

FTR, while I like Josh Jackson well enough, I hated the Pacey/Joey pairing and thought and still think it was incredibly overrated (now for the record that's largely because I hated Joey and hated all sides of the triangle because I didn't ship her and Dawson either) and I never watched Fringe. So for some, like myself, no, I'm not giving Cole a pass on his faults and his bad behavior. However, for many reasons that I and many others have noted, yes I do find him sympathetic and no it's not in comparison to Noah. I look at all the characters individually. 

[right]

There's been a lot of discussion regarding Noah & Allison's finances.  I'm no real estate expert for Montauk, but could Allison's beach house be worth 10 to 20 million depending on who wanted it?  When Cole chased the snooping agents off the property didn't the lady say something to the effect that they had 1,000 feet of beach front?  That would seem to be enough property to split into 2 or 3 estate sized parcels.  Not sure how the Hamptons prices compare, but I think I read Howard Stern paid 25 million for the land he built his Hamptons pad on.

[GeminiDancer]

Could the apartment be Alison's perception, lol? Maybe it is "fancy" but not the overwhelming place we saw? Just kidding, really, due to the reactions of her friend and Mom, but starting to'wonder as it so does not "fit" in with the finances as we know them. Also, unless Noah has already been paid upfront for the movie rights from a major studio, there just is not literally millions in a single book very often, for the author anyway. He would have to sell many millions of books, which I doubt has happened over the course of a year or so. I have read that to be a "bestseller" means something like 25k copies sold over a particular time period. Not sure how it work, though I have written and published a few books (hardly any sales, lol) but it takes many books as a rule to make the author truly wealthy and usually, several movie deals too.

The apartment they were in when Noah got arrested was quite swanky and very similar in look. It felt smaller, though.

[Neurochick]

I don't know, I really don't see true love between Noah and Alison.  I see more of, "I thought you were the one for me, I thought you were better than my spouse, but you're not, you're just different."  

 

I don't see love, I see two people who got caught up in shit.  I think Cole is finding love because it's not all "full speed ahead."  I think if a man responded to my statement, "You've never been to my part of Queens," with "What part is that, the Barrio?" I would have told him to take a fucking hike and never come back, especially if the douchebag accused me of stealing.  WTF?

Edited November 18, 2015 by Neurochick

[Miss chi chi]

Although I'm typically not an Allison supporter, I felt sad for Allison in this episode because of how she views Noah now.  Especially when from her POV, he couldn't hear the heartbeat and then just lied halfheartedly about it, or worse, could care less that he did hear it. I also believe that Allison's view of the PR girl was hilariously over the top.  

 

I despise Noah for using real life stuff in his book that makes Allison look bad, and then when she says why she is upset and embarrassed, he keeps telling her that it's fiction.  What an asshole.

 

I feel that Whitney's misplaced love of Scotty has a lot to do with the fact that she feels that her daddy abandoned her and doesn't love her anymore.  And that he got her pregnant and she got an abortion.  That's traumatic, emotional stuff for a teenager.  Even horrible Whitney.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Miss chi chi

[DarkRaichu]

  And that he got her pregnant and she got an abortion.  That's traumatic, emotional stuff for a teenager.  Even horrible Whitney.

I would love for the show to expand more on that, if nothing else to make Whitney more than a younger more obnoxious version of her grandmother

[TheFinalRose]

Hi..first time wandering into The Affair boards but this show is finally making me crazy enough to need to vent.  This show is so inconsistent; it has interesting characters but also is so preposterous that it makes me angry.  

 

I am giving Noah a break on showing up late for Thanksgiving. Whatever function he was at did seem to be important to his career. How many chances will he get to promote a bestselling book? Just about anyone in Alison's shoes would understand that and be happy their partner was having their most successful career day ever. Instead, Alison reacted in her usual Alison way and made me hate her even more. Of course, this all ignores the fact that a function like that would probably never have occurred on Thanksgiving. People have other places to be on that day.

 

 

I couldn't get over the fact that this super important to the success of his book event was taking place on Thanksgiving Day, as if these publishing people are robots without any families or plans that don't take place right in Manhattan. Now I can see a company opening their offices or renting a room with a view for the parade but it would be a family event, not a posh, adults only cocktail thingee. That was one of those so dumb it hurts to watch elements of this episode. At the same time, Noah being unable to remember the turkey was a cliche of the hapless male who can't do anything domestic. It would have been so much better if he had surprised her with the turkey.

 

 

 

Jonathan Franzen wouldn't be spending two hours on Thanksgiving night with the author of a summer beach read.  That and comments made at the party made it clear to me that this book is supposed to be a literary success.

 

And Philip Roth can't stop talking about it!

 

 

Ha ha. Would it kill these writers to do a little research on the dog eat dog publishing industry? As if these two egotistical authors are going to pay attention to Noah Solloway, he of the one failed novel with another over-hyped novel on the way. I guess I am just jaded because I work in a bookstore and right now there are probably between 100-120 "new" literary fiction books out and most of them will be taken off the shelf after their 90 days having sold maybe one, maybe two, but very likely zero copies. Some of these hyped before hand but none of them a vehicle to a four bedroom Manhattan apartment with fifteen thousand dollars worth of suede sofas before publication.  I mean Paula Hawkins, whose The Girl on the Train, was the bestselling book of this year, is probably just now starting to see the big money roll in and getting her suede sofas ordered.

 

I was bummed that we didn't get to see Noah's perspective on that Thanksgiving day, because, despite my gripes about its stupidity, navigating the holidays whilst in the middle of a family meltdown is an important part of Noah and Allison's story, and I liked seeing it addressed.

 

 

I think that so many viewers of this show really liked Pacey and Peter ( me too) that Cole is getting a pass on his faults and bad behavior.

 

 

 

OMG. I never thought of this before but this is exactly me. I never watched DC but I grew to love Josh Jackson as the wronged hero of the Tom Cruise/Katie/Holmes/Josh Jackson triangle that I can't see him as anyone else other than his lovable self.  (Add to the fact that I believe he is the real father of Suri and Katie Holmes doesn't want him to know). But he can be acting like a real a-hole on the show and I just think, oh, poor guy. Noah, on the other hand, I can't stand; I think he was poorly cast.  Allison I like because I first saw her in Saving Mr. Banks and noticed her, and Maura Tierney, whose looks I don't get, is always fascinating on screen.  

[islandgal140]

I am giving Noah a break on showing up late for Thanksgiving. Whatever function he was at did seem to be important to his career. How many chances will he get to promote a bestselling book? Just about anyone in Alison's shoes would understand that and be happy their partner was having their most successful career day ever. Instead, Alison reacted in her usual Alison way and made me hate her even more. Of course, this all ignores the fact that a function like that would probably never have occurred on Thanksgiving. People have other places to be on that day.

 

The showing up late thing was rude but understandable.  Plain ridiculous was forgetting the turkey but I thought that was dual idiocy on the part of Allison and Noah. Firstly, who the hell orders a turkey for Thanksgiving and waits until the last minute, the day of to pick it up? Stupid to trust self-centered Noah who is basking in the glow of all the accolades he is getting to remember a silly thing like the main course on Thanksgiving. Why not send mom to pick it up when it was coming closer to the time and Noah wasn't even in sight or answering his phone? I doubt it arrives piping hot so it would need to be heated for a time before serving.

 

Lastly, Dean and DeLuca delivers and offers shipping dummies!  They could have had it shipped - it ships frozen and got it the day before or since they live in Manhattan had it delivered. They can afford that luxury apartment but want to save a few dollars on delivery? Come on! No damn sense! I checked the company website and the smallest cooked turkey starts at $75.00 and tops out at $175.00. 

 

Sorry about the mini rant but I get heated up about Thanksgiving feasts. It'd be cussing up a storm if I was invited to a Thanksgiving meal and there was no main course. Hell, I don't show up to a house on Thanksgiving wherein less than 3 meats are being served. Judge and side eye me if you will. I know my ass is shady and greedy. That is the only real gluttony sanctioned meal in the USA for me. 

 

But the foundation of Neurochick's theory is that Noah only decided that he was in love and would stay with Alison because he was "caught" in the affair. The evidence is unambiguously that this is not at all what happened.

To clarify, the evidence I'm citing does not prove they are "truly in love". I can't prove that, especially if no one will take Sarah Treem's word for it (although again, I don't know what it means to say a fictional character is not actually in love when the writer of the ongoing series says he is). But if Noah is not actually in love, it's not because he got caught in their affair. He clearly decided, twice, to leave Helen and be with Alison without the issue being forced by Helen catching him.

 

I agree that Noah chose Allison over Helen and his children. Is it love? I think that is what this series is trying to delve into hence the lively and interesting debate and why I don't think we will have an answer, if we ever do, until we see how the relationship evolves or devolves.  To me the true test of love is Time. I think they had/have intense amorous feelings, passion and a connection (although I don't see it myself) borne out of Noah's feelings of inadequacy/failure and Allison's tragedy. Sure they have uttered the words but that needs to be verified through the passage of time, which as my grandmother always told me makes fools of us all. 

 

 

There's been a lot of discussion regarding Noah & Allison's finances.  I'm no real estate expert for Montauk, but could Allison's beach house be worth 10 to 20 million depending on who wanted it?  When Cole chased the snooping agents off the property didn't the lady say something to the effect that they had 1,000 feet of beach front?  That would seem to be enough property to split into 2 or 3 estate sized parcels.  Not sure how the Hamptons prices compare, but I think I read Howard Stern paid 25 million for the land he built his Hamptons pad on.

 

I'd have no problem believing Allison's land is worth that much. None at all. It is just that she doesn't have it yet, which again begs the question how are they affording that multi-million dollar penthouse?  Also, assuming that when we see Allison with the baby in court she already got it, so why would Noah say he couldn't afford that expensive attorney? Did they blow it all on apartments and fancy store turkeys? Or are they no longer together?

[GeminiDancer]

It's clear that they're still together when Alison got all "I'm Noah's wife, and I want a say in the decision-making!" to the lawyer.

[Boundary]

I guess you are interpreting the 'evidence' differently then.  I don't really think anyone is denying the events that took place, I just believe that Noah got caught up in it all, thought he was in love with Allison, but after that so-called 'honeymoon period' realized that this was a big mistake.  And I believe there's plenty of evidence to support that theory.  But I guess YMMV.

 

Usual YMMV. I have not seen one iota of evidence that he thinks his affair with Alison was one big mistake, I'll concede that he looked a little rueful when he was leaving the house after Martin came back from hospital. But I'll wager that was more a result of spending time with his kids than anything. He proposed to Alison, even after she confessed to a few things, including an Oscar one night stand. He stayed with her in the lake house behind Helen's back, whom he'd known would go ballistic if she found out. He then confessed everything, including the engagement, to the judge against his lawyer's advice. He stormed out of his sister's house with the kids,  and preferred to take them to a motel, all because she insulted his love for her (by comparing it to a fan loving Brad Pitt). After the court order fell away, he went to Alison at Athena's retreat to tell she can now move in with him at Crown Heights but was surprised to find her questioning their relationship. All this, to me, is evidence he's never regretted being with Alison.

 

There is, however, some evidence that she has wavered. But I believed her when she told Athena that selling her Montauk house in order to create a home in Manhattan is evidence that she loves him. In fact, she's stated it numerous times that she loves him. Even after sleeping with Cole, she still left him and has effectively returned to Noah. However, even though she loves him, it's obvious that her feelings are a lot more complicated than his.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Boundary

[Neurochick]

Ha ha. Would it kill these writers to do a little research on the dog eat dog publishing industry? As if these two egotistical authors are going to pay attention to Noah Solloway, he of the one failed novel with another over-hyped novel on the way. I guess I am just jaded because I work in a bookstore and right now there are probably between 100-120 "new" literary fiction books out and most of them will be taken off the shelf after their 90 days having sold maybe one, maybe two, but very likely zero copies. Some of these hyped before hand but none of them a vehicle to a four bedroom Manhattan apartment with fifteen thousand dollars worth of suede sofas before publication.  I mean Paula Hawkins, whose The Girl on the Train, was the bestselling book of this year, is probably just now starting to see the big money roll in and getting her suede sofas ordered.

 

 

I was confused because it didn't seem that much time had gone by between the last episode and this one and already there were major changes.  

 

I didn't think the Thanksgiving party was strange because not everybody in the world has children or families they want to see.  Shit, some people hang out in bars on Thanksgiving.

[Boundary]

I was confused because it didn't seem that much time had gone by between the last episode and this one and already there were major changes.  

 

Tweet from Sarah Treem yesterday: "We'll be jumping time more in the next few episodes as our past continues hurtling towards our present so ... get used to it"

So maybe we'll see Scotty's demise this season. My only problem with the speed is that some issues are not resolved or they get resolved offscreen. Noah's book finished, edited and getting published all happened in the period between last episode and this.

[izabella]

I was confused because it didn't seem that much time had gone by between the last episode and this one and already there were major changes.

 

Allison was 6 weeks pregnant in the last episode, and her baby is due in April and it's now Thanksgiving.  So, up to 3 months have passed since Noah finished his book.  Not a lot of time to move from little Queens apartment to fancy new big apartment. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by izabella

[racked]

It would be fascinating if both the apartment AND the event being held on Thanksgiving was inaccurate because of Allison's perception. We will at least get to see the apartment through Noah's POV next so that will answer that, but the event being on Thanksgiving will remain a mystery I think. I totally buy that Noah got called away to do some networking and drinks were involved and so he forgot the turkey. That seems very much in his nature.

Scotty saying "that's our baby" makes way more sense after the whole "cursed Lockhart offspring" discussion. Wonder why the cursed skipped a generation and allowed all the current Lockhart boys to survive easily to adulthood.

[Neurochick]

Scotty saying "that's our baby" makes way more sense after the whole "cursed Lockhart offspring" discussion. Wonder why the cursed skipped a generation and allowed all the current Lockhart boys to survive easily to adulthood.

 

Yes, that's what I didn't get about "we're cursed" stuff.  How come Ma Lockhart had a whole bunch of kids?  Did this curse not affect her?  

[Constantinople]

But the foundation of Neurochick's theory is that Noah only decided that he was in love and would stay with Alison because he was "caught" in the affair. The evidence is unambiguously that this is not at all what happened.

I think the key point is Noah wants to believe that Alison is "the one" to justify leaving his wife and family.

 

IMO, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that

• Noah is a selfish douchebag
• Noah knows or suspects he's a selfish douchebag
• Noah likes to think of himself as a good person
• Noah wanted out of his marriage or was having a stereotypical midlife crisis and didn't know how to handle it (or both)
• "True love" or "No marriage could survive the embodiment of sex that is her" is a better reason in Noah's cliched, melodramatic imagination for leaving than just leaving for the sake of it or leaving to chase tail

 

But more and more, particularly in Season 2, the bloom is off the Alison rose.  For someone who allegedly loves Alison, Noah sure treated Alison like shit at her mother's retreat.

 

How Helen found out about the affair isn't particularly important (and it's arguable how voluntary Noah's first confession was given that Oscar was blackmailing him).

 

To clarify, the evidence I'm citing does not prove they are "truly in love". I can't prove that, especially if no one will take Sarah Treem's word for it (although again, I don't know what it means to say a fictional character is not actually in love when the writer of the ongoing series says he is).

Why should viewers take Sarah Treems' word for it?

 

I've heard it said that "At some point, fate takes over a story, and even the author himself loses control."

[izabella]

Treem can say they are in true love, but the characters aren't showing that.  Unless true love is awkward, uncomfortable, affectionless, lonely and cold.  That's all I saw in the in last episode from Allison's point of view.

Edited November 18, 2015 by izabella

[Otherkate]

I don't follow Treems on Twitter or read any of the interviews about the show, but if she truly thinks she's showing a true love/soulmate, isn't it romantic relationship, she's got some work to do. I actually think what she's showing is much more realistic and far, far more interesting. 

[Boundary]

Maybe we are conflating romance with "true love". Does true love mean there are no hurdles, misunderstandings, arguments. etc? What is our definition of true love/soul mate?

[RedheadZombie]

I despise Noah for using real life stuff in his book that makes Allison look bad, and then when she says why she is upset and embarrassed, he keeps telling her that it's fiction.  What an asshole.

 

I write (only as a hobby), and I find real life infuses everything.  One of my stories is a take on the Casey Anthony case.  Teenage mother, "kidnapped"/dead child, bizarre family dynamics, father/brother DNA tested for paternity of child.  My story ends with the Casey character being innocent.  Do I think Casey Anthony is innocent?  Not a chance in hell.  I think it's bizarre that in the world of The Affair, everyone assumes the story is autobiographical.  Now if the female character in Noah's book is a former nurse whose child died, I could see the connection.  Much of my own personal life ends up in my writing, but since my life is rather boring, I jazz it up a bit.

[lovinbob]

OMG. I never thought of this before but this is exactly me. I never watched DC but I grew to love Josh Jackson as the wronged hero of the Tom Cruise/Katie/Holmes/Josh Jackson triangle that I can't see him as anyone else other than his lovable self.  (Add to the fact that I believe he is the real father of Suri and Katie Holmes doesn't want him to know). But he can be acting like a real a-hole on the show and I just think, oh, poor guy. Noah, on the other hand, I can't stand; I think he was poorly cast.  Allison I like because I first saw her in Saving Mr. Banks and noticed her, and Maura Tierney, whose looks I don't get, is always fascinating on screen.  

Did Joshua Jackson and Katie Holmes even date? I thought she was engaged to Chris Klein before she and Tom got together. (sorry, off-topic.)

Edited November 18, 2015 by lovinbob

[truthaboutluv]

Maybe we are conflating romance with "true love". Does true love mean there are no hurdles, misunderstandings, arguments. etc? What is our definition of true love/soul mate?

 

Well personally I've never believed in the Hollywood, idealized soul mate stuff. I think different people come in your life at different points and affect it different ways and maybe none of them were your "forever" but it doesn't mean the relationships weren't significant or important. So that being said, no, I don't believe love or "true love" means no hurdles or arguments because I don't believe any relationship is without its struggles.

 

Of course interestingly that is an argument some made on here in favor of Noah/Alison and more importantly, against the so called "puritanical" views of marriage. That is, why should people stay and have to work at it, why should it be so much work when one should be allowed to selfishly chase their happiness and joy where they can get it. So in that respect, the problem I personally have with Noah and Alison's relationship, is that I see no joy and happiness in it. They walked away from their spouses with whom theoretically they weren't happy with for a happiness with each other and yet all I've seen is misery, discomfort and unhappiness from both of them. 

 

I haven't seen them bring out the best in each other, I haven't seen a level of understanding and trust between them that is beyond anything they had with either spouse. Hell as some noted, Alison's scene with Cole talking about how no one sees her might have been the most honest and poignant of any she's had with a man and it wasn't with Noah. So far all we've seen of Noah and Alison in my opinion is two people stuck in an uncomfortable existence where they're both tip toeing around each other and not wanting to say or do the wrong thing that would ruin the tentative reality they've created. And I find it to be the most pathetic and depressing thing ever. But as always, YMMV.

 

Did Joshua Jackson and Katie Holmes even date? I thought she was engaged to Chris Klein before she and Tom got together. (sorry, off-topic.)

 

Yes, they dated for a year or two during the early days of Dawson's Creek. They've both admitted it in later years and think Katie has even called Josh the love of her life, which always made me wonder how Diane Kruger felt about that. Holmes got with Chris Klein almost towards the end of the show's run. Rumor is she also had a very brief fling with James van der Beek before she and Josh dated. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[izabella]

I write (only as a hobby), and I find real life infuses everything.  One of my stories is a take on the Casey Anthony case.  Teenage mother, "kidnapped"/dead child, bizarre family dynamics, father/brother DNA tested for paternity of child.  My story ends with the Casey character being innocent.  Do I think Casey Anthony is innocent?  Not a chance in hell.  I think it's bizarre that in the world of The Affair, everyone assumes the story is autobiographical.  Now if the female character in Noah's book is a former nurse whose child died, I could see the connection.  Much of my own personal life ends up in my writing, but since my life is rather boring, I jazz it up a bit.

 

I think the connection people are seeing is that Noah went to Montauk and had an affair in his real life, just like the guy in the book.  That's plenty of similarity for people to wonder if the story is draw from his real life.  Plus, he adds in all the Montauk details, like those about the smuggling past of Cole's family and the drug dealing, just like the real family that Allison married into and that the character in Noah's book married into.

Edited November 18, 2015 by izabella

[RedheadZombie]

Treem can say they are in true love, but the characters aren't showing that.  Unless true love is awkward, uncomfortable, affectionless, lonely and cold.  That's all I saw in the in last episode from Allison's point of view.

 

I think that "true love" can be difficult to convey on screen, at least as compared to in writing.  I went into the first season of Outlander knowing the plot, but never having read the book.  I went into the show excited at witnessing this epic love story.  When it was over, I thought:  WTF?  Claire abandons her loving husband to stay with this guy?  I don't believe it.  Who chooses constant beatings, kidnappings, rapes and near rapes, and almost being burned at the stake, to living in their own time, safely, and with your devoted husband?  I did not buy it - at all.

 

ETA:  After a decade of Twilight and Fifty Shades, "true love" seems to be slowly turning into passive/weak women falling in love with controlling/stalkerish men.

Edited November 18, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[RedheadZombie]

I think the connection people are seeing is that Noah went to Montauk and had an affair in his real life, just like the guy in the book.  That's plenty of similarity for people to wonder if the story is draw from his real life.  Plus, he adds in all the Montauk details, like those about the smuggling past of Cole's family and the drug dealing, just like the real family that Allison married into and that the character in Noah's book married into.

 

I understand that the viewers see the connection, but I don't understand how the general public would get it.  When it comes to even my favorite writers, I know nothing about them unless they mention it on their book jacket.  I would never know if their real life was creeping in.  Sure Montauk knows all about Bruce, but I bet very few know Noah.  And if they know Alison at all, it's in connection to the Lockhart drug ring.  And since that drug ring has been implied to be a open secret, why be enraged when it appears in a work of fiction?  It's all a bit confusing to me.

[RedInk]

Maybe we are conflating romance with "true love". Does true love mean there are no hurdles, misunderstandings, arguments. etc? What is our definition of true love/soul mate?

I don't really believe in "true love." I think there are a number of people one could be happy with. I also think that Allison/Noah are a realistic depiction of what often happens when people leave their spouses for someone else - they expect their intense feelings to last forever, and for the other person to be an endless distraction from their failures and losses. They compare the passion they have for a new partner against the more mundane, familiar life they share with their spouse. And then there's disappointment, because things calm down, and the realization sets in that one set of problems has been traded for another. That's what I'm seeing with Allison and Noah. People looking to someone else to solve their problems/make them happy never really seem to find what they're looking for, and they repeat the cycle. Isn't that why the divorce statistic is so confusing? Your chances of divorce aren't actually 50/50; it's just that people who remarry and divorce many times skew the statistic. I don't mean to sound like the morality police; I understand that life is messy, and I'm not nearly this judgmental of my friends IRL! It's just that the events playing out here are things I've seen a thousand times, and I will never buy these two as a love story.

Edited November 18, 2015 by RedInk

[JenE4]

Haha IKR? I guess given Athena I shouldn't have been surprised they would have a Hippie Kale Thanksgiving. Ironically I plan to serve a hearty Kale and Fennel salad at my own.

Alison made a big deal about everything being from her grandmother's cookbook from 1927. No one ate kale in 1927, lol. But maybe that was a purposeful disconnect in Alison's memory--I slaved all day over these traditional recipes (including pies from scratch!) and all you had to do was pick up the turkey but, no, you were drinking with this PR hoochie and Johnathan Frazen all day and now all we have to eat is a salad!

[Otherkate]

Maybe we are conflating romance with "true love". Does true love mean there are no hurdles, misunderstandings, arguments. etc? What is our definition of true love/soul mate?

 

No, not at all. I don't think that kind of relationship between two people even exists. But, generally, someone you love and who loves you brings out the best in you, helps you to be the best version of yourself (and yes that process can be messy.) These two? To me, they kind of ended up together via some set of circumstances and now there they are, but man, it sure seems miserable and I wouldn't want any part of it. I know Allison is a sad sap to a lot of people, but this season has truly helped me understand her. And I think what most people have said about her has been true. I think she also started to realize that and was making a real effort to find herself. Too bad Noah didn't want her to. 

 

I don't really believe in "true love." I think there are a number of people one could be happy with. I also think that Allison/Noah are a realistic depiction of what often happens when people leave their spouses for someone else - they expect their intense feelings to last forever, and for the other person to be an endless distraction from their failures and losses. They compare the passion they have for a new partner against the more mundane, familiar life they share with their spouse. And then there's disappointment, because things calm down, and the realization sets in that one set of problems has been traded for another. That's what I'm seeing with Allison and Noah. People looking to someone else to solve their problems/make them happy never really seem to find what they're looking for, and they repeat the cycle. Isn't that why the divorce statistic is so confusing? Your chances of divorce aren't actually 50/50; it's just that people who remarry and divorce many times skew the statistic. I don't mean to sound like the morality police; I understand that life is messy, and I'm not nearly this judgmental of my friends IRL! It's just that the events playing out here are things I've seen a thousand times, and I will never buy these two as a love story.

 

Agreed. I'm getting divorced, btw, (my idea too) so it's not like I'm against divorce at all, nor do I even sort of believe that someone should remain in an unhappy marriage. But, I think what we're seeing with these two happens very often and that's why I'm finding the show to be so interesting. 

[right]

I don't really believe in "true love." I think there are a number of people one could be happy with. I also think that Allison/Noah are a realistic depiction of what often happens when people leave their spouses for someone else - they expect their intense feelings to last forever, and for the other person to be an endless distraction from their failures and losses. They compare the passion they have for a new partner against the more mundane, familiar life they share with their spouse. And then there's disappointment, because things calm down, and the realization sets in that one set of problems has been traded for another. That's what I'm seeing with Allison and Noah. People looking to someone else to solve their problems/make them happy never really seem to find what they're looking for, and they repeat the cycle. Isn't that why the divorce statistic is so confusing? Your chances of divorce aren't actually 50/50; it's just that people who remarry and divorce many times skew the statistic. I don't mean to sound like the morality police; I understand that life is messy, and I'm not nearly this judgmental of my friends IRL! It's just that the events playing out here are things I've seen a thousand times, and I will never buy these two as a love story.

 

I agree with this assessment.  I can think of 7 or 8 people off hand that I felt could have been marriage material for me.  Circumstances weeded out most of them.  However, I might differ a little on the "true love" aspect.  I believe that it does exist, but it takes several years to develop between 2 people.  The idea of love at first sight seems ridiculous.

 

For those who believe in one true "soul mate", I have to ask what are the chances you would meet them with 7 billion people running around?

[cardigirl]

Maybe we are conflating romance with "true love". Does true love mean there are no hurdles, misunderstandings, arguments. etc? What is our definition of true love/soul mate?

Some would say that passion breeds all of the fierce fighting.  But I guess what I saw between Noah and Alison this episode is that she (at least) is very unsure of his devotion to her.  Being with him has brought a measure of "success" as in money (hers as well as his) and him enjoying the success of a runaway best seller.  But the cost is that there is little intimacy between them, maybe because he is so busy, maybe because he is really finding that his authorial success is giving him all that he wanted.  I loved that he was talking to Helen and asked eagerly to say hi to the kids. 

 

I'm of the group that feels I haven't seen a lot of love between Alison and Noah, just passion and sex.  Will it grow deeper?  Maybe.  

 

Still enjoying the show, although I thought this not the strongest episode of the series.

[SlackerInc]

It's clear that they're still together when Alison got all "I'm Noah's wife, and I want a say in the decision-making!" to the lawyer.

 

Right.  On the AfterBuzz TV podcast, the main host also believed Alison and Noah were no longer together in the present (or future, whichever you want to call it), and I don't understand where people are getting this.  We also saw they were definitely together, and seemingly on good terms, when Noah was arrested.

 

I don't follow Treems on Twitter or read any of the interviews about the show, but if she truly thinks she's showing a true love/soulmate, isn't it romantic relationship, she's got some work to do. I actually think what she's showing is much more realistic and far, far more interesting. 

 

I agree that it's more realistic and interesting than the typical fictional starry-eyed romance.  But I also agree with Boundary (and the first couple sentences of RedInk's post) that this may in some sense be a semantic issue.  They are truly in love in the real life sense, which (after a brief honeymoon period) includes a lot of doubt, insecurity, resentment, boredom, etc.  I suppose many or most people don't really want to see that in their escapist entertainment, but I love it.  

 

I listed a number of films I adore along these lines in an earlier thread, but I don't think I mentioned how thrilling I found the intense, ugly, ultra-realistic marital fight in Before Midnight.  Note that even here, in a scene that includes the line

"Now I know why Sylvia Plath put her head in a toaster" and ends with "I don't think I love you any more", filmmaker and co-screenwriter Linklater says "People have called this the fight scene, but my constant direction to Ethan and Julie while we were making it was, 'This is a love scene.' "

 That's real life, folks!

[Boundary]

Thanks for the answers to my question. The general consensus seems to be summed up by RedInk:

 

I don't really believe in "true love." I think there are a number of people one could be happy with. I also think that Allison/Noah are a realistic depiction of what often happens when people leave their spouses for someone else - they expect their intense feelings to last forever, and for the other person to be an endless distraction from their failures and losses. They compare the passion they have for a new partner against the more mundane, familiar life they share with their spouse. And then there's disappointment, because things calm down, and the realization sets in that one set of problems has been traded for another. That's what I'm seeing with Allison and Noah. People looking to someone else to solve their problems/make them happy never really seem to find what they're looking for, and they repeat the cycle. Isn't that why the divorce statistic is so confusing? Your chances of divorce aren't actually 50/50; it's just that people who remarry and divorce many times skew the statistic. I don't mean to sound like the morality police; I understand that life is messy, and I'm not nearly this judgmental of my friends IRL! It's just that the events playing out here are things I've seen a thousand times, and I will never buy these two as a love story.

 

Essentially the view is that Alison and Noah wanted to escape their realities but life doesn't work that way. One set of problems is substituted by another. Hence these two are now miserable and therefore they're not in love. Sorry if I've oversimplified your views. Essentially what I'm saying is that trading one set of problems for another has nothing to do with it. Even the arguments that we've seen have nothing to do with it (all of you agree that arguments and hurdles are a part of relationships). But my question is, if Noah brought flowers frequently, if they had more romantic dinners, if Alison cried into his shoulder while revealing her darkest secrets, if she read his book with unbridled pride, etc. - would that be a portrayal of true love? I guess what I'm trying to say is, how do we know they are not in love? How can "true love" be portrayed?

 

SlackerInc put it better:

 

To clarify, the evidence I'm citing does not prove they are "truly in love". I can't prove that, especially if no one will take Sarah Treem's word for it (although again, I don't know what it means to say a fictional character is not actually in love when the writer of the ongoing series says he is). 

 

These are fictional characters, their fates, their beings, their souls if you will, are controlled by Treem. If she says they are in love then they must be - unless she's trying to mislead in her interviews or if she'd said "it's an unreliable narrater situation and each viewer must make up their own minds." If a friend of mine says "I'm so in love with such and such person..." how can I objectively say their not telling the truth? How can I measure and take evidence to prove the veracity of that statement? I really can't measure my friend's feelings. It is what they say it is. Similarly, SlackerInc and I can't prove or offer any evidence as proof, that Noah and Alison are in love. If Sarah Treem's word is not enough, then all we are is like someone trying to convince a friend that their feelings aren't real, for whatever reason.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Boundary

[Palomar]

Maybe we are conflating romance with "true love". Does true love mean there are no hurdles, misunderstandings, arguments. etc? What is our definition of true love/soul mate?

 

 

Not sure, but you would wonder why Allison finally being with her "true love" after all the obstacles would end up cheating on him and you would wonder why she wouldn't be happier having found her 'soul mate". 

[SlackerInc]

Boundary, loved your post as usual.  :)

Edited November 19, 2015 by SlackerInc

[Boundary]

Boundary, loved your post as usual--but it's SlackerInc, not SlaterInc.  (The first time I thought it was just a typo, but then you wrote it the same way again...)  :)

 

Oooops! Corrected.

[nara]

Last season the Lockharts had a horse farm (and Martin worked there briefly).  So they clearly had a considerable amount of very valuable land.  And it was clearly in the family for generations.  Cherry had to have fucked things up pretty badly financially to lose this place.  She said she re-financed it several times & maybe they weren't making enough revenue as a horse farm.  

 

Perhaps I am mixing this up with another show, but wasn't there some mention of them having lost some of the drugs they were selling?  Their supplier would still want to be paid.  Maybe that's related to their financial issues.

 

I somehow doubt that Noah is doing his PR person but I have little doubt that he will be looking for a new muse to inspire his next novel. Allison may no longer be 'damaged' or interesting enough for him anymore now that she is nesting. 

 

Noah is a snob in his own way. He seems embarrassed to introduce Allison as a waitress. 

 

WTH does Whitney see in Scotty? 

 

I'd have to question the friendship of someone who introduced me to Max. I guess if it is all fun and games and you want a sugar daddy to buy you pretty things and help pay your student loans he is okay but ugh! 

 

I seem to be one of the few people who thinks that Noah did not have sex (or anything close) with Eden.  He is very career-focused right now, and no woman--no matter how pretty or sexy-- can compete with that.  This is his big chance and he will do what it takes to promote the book, even ignore his pregnant fiancee.  I doubt that Eden would be his next muse--she's not vulnerable enough IMO to excite him that way.  

 

Also, I don't know the title of this episode, but it should have been called Burst Bubble.  Now that they are for the first time living real life together, it's obvious they don't really fit together (yet).  

• Noah may not have been the center of a celebrity party like he was in this episode, but he likely attended them in the past with Helen.  We don't get his POV, but if he noticed Alison at all at the party, he would likely have compared her unfavorably to Helen, who would be independent enough to talk comfortably with the people in this crowd, and probably instinctively know which contacts were valuable, and would have left on her own (without troubling him) if she felt the need to do so.  

 

I am giving Noah a break on showing up late for Thanksgiving. Whatever function he was at did seem to be important to his career. How many chances will he get to promote a bestselling book? Just about anyone in Alison's shoes would understand that and be happy their partner was having their most successful career day ever. Instead, Alison reacted in her usual Alison way and made me hate her even more. Of course, this all ignores the fact that a function like that would probably never have occurred on Thanksgiving. People have other places to be on that day.

 

• I thought that Alison was not very understanding and supportive of the networking opportunities, possibly because she's never had the type of job that required it to be successful. However, she's probably hormonal and tired, and she probably wouldn't really understand the importance of networking to the success of Noah's book, so I guess I give her a pass.  Perhaps he should have briefed her better ahead of time on how these things work.

 

• For her part, Alison saw for the first time the downside of being with "the great artist".  It's an unspoken expectation that she's expected to hold down the fort and get all the practical stuff done (like Tgiving dinner) and to be an asset to his career by chatting up the right people at the networking parties and to put up with flirty fans and PR girls.  Also, she never asked to be Noah's muse, but that's who people want to meet--the woman who inspired him to write.  Meanwhile, all she really wants is a normal family life, but she's looking for it with the wrong man. She's used to Cole, who volunteered to fix her toilet even after they split up. IMO, Noah wants someone who will take care of that stuff and not bug him with it.  Sadly, unless she inspires his next book, Alison will probably never again enjoy the role she played at the center of Noah's attention and life.

 

I feel that Whitney's misplaced love of Scotty has a lot to do with the fact that she feels that her daddy abandoned her and doesn't love her anymore.  And that he got her pregnant and she got an abortion.  That's traumatic, emotional stuff for a teenager.  Even horrible Whitney.

 

Somewhere, Barney Stinson (from How I Met Your Mother) is waiting for Whitney to turn 18.  She is the perfect example of how girls with bad relationships with Dad look for love with  all the wrong men.  But for the record, I think that Scotty is very handsome, so it doesn't surprise me that she was attracted to him.  He also was able to create a (temporary) rapprochement between Cole and his family, so he does have some redeeming value.  However, not being able to refrain from texting while saying grace?  WTF?

 

I actually liked the fact that Cole's family held him accountable for his actions.  Not comforting his brother and SIL after the miscarriage? Complete jerk move. Mom was right to draw the parallel to his father--Cole is heading down that path.  (Though I cringed every time they said hung instead of hanged.)

 

BTW, since I have not seen any comments about this, I must be the only one who was afraid that Cole would sleep with Whitney.  The past comments that he always takes what belongs to Scotty (Luisa, the restaurant) and the idea that she might take revenge on Scotty by sleeping with his brother had me worried.  The way it turned out was just perfect though.

 

I loved the way Cole said, "She thinks she's in love," to Noah.  Did anyone else think he was kinda referring to Alison too?

 

I think that Cole made up the missing money clip to drive away Luisa.  It happened right after she said I love you and he saw that she had moved Gabriel's picture.  She was getting too close to him.  Glad they patched things up.

[Otherkate]

But my question is, if Noah brought flowers frequently, if they had more romantic dinners, if Alison cried into his shoulder while revealing her darkest secrets, if she read his book with unbridled pride, etc. - would that be a portrayal of true love?

 

 

No, not for me. That sounds unrealistic and cheesy. I really had no definite opinion on the whole "is this love?" question until the last episode in which I felt we were seeing real growth happen in Allison. We saw her start to come out of the fog she had been living in since - well, we don't really know since when, but certainly since her child died. She felt she was learning something about herself, about what she wanted out of life, about what she was capable of. She was connecting with other people and seemed to genuinely be becoming something...more. Noah saw it too. Then he shut it down. Violently. And he used sex - the very thing we know she has used in a negative way - to do it. His actions seemed to be triggered particularly by her saying he couldn't control her, which is about as bad as it gets in my eyes. He loves her? I don't think so. He loves the weak, sad, damaged version of her that inspired his book. And he wants her to stay that way. That's gross to me and it sure doesn't fit my version of love. He could buy her flowers every single episode for the rest of the series and it wouldn't erase that moment for me. 

 

I seem to be one of the few people who thinks that Noah did not have sex (or anything close) with Eden.  He is very career-focused right now, and no woman--no matter how pretty or sexy-- can compete with that.  This is his big chance and he will do what it takes to promote the book, even ignore his pregnant fiancee.  I doubt that Eden would be his next muse--she's not vulnerable enough IMO to excite him that way.  

 

 

I didn't think he had sex with Eden either, but I certainly think we were meant to see her as a temptation (again, this could very well be because the POV was Allison's.) I agree with you though - Eden doesn't fit his desired type. 

[TheFinalRose]

Did Joshua Jackson and Katie Holmes even date? I thought she was engaged to Chris Klein before she and Tom got together. (sorry, off-topic.)

 

 

 

Katie Holmes flew to see Josh Jackson in London where he was appearing in a play, after she broke up with Chris Klein, and two or three weeks before she showed up as Tom Cruise's arm candy. Couple that with the fact that there is some suspicion that Suri was born sooner and Katie faked the end of her pregnancy, the numbers add up to Katie + Josh in London = Suri.  

 

 

Anyway, back to the show. Are Noah and Allison in love? I think they are, basically because they are still together, and either of them is capable of walking out at any moment, if so inspired. But they don't, and they keep working together on trying to move forward. Their lives are complicated and messy, partly because of their circumstances, but also to amp up the television drama.  

 

[Milburn Stone]

These are fictional characters, their fates, their beings, their souls if you will, are controlled by Treem. If she says they are in love then they must be...

 

...aaaand, once again, we discover that the words of a show runner prove unhelpful in understanding the meaning of a show.

[RedInk]

...if Noah brought flowers frequently, if they had more romantic dinners, if Alison cried into his shoulder while revealing her darkest secrets, if she read his book with unbridled pride, etc. - would that be a portrayal of true love?

These are fictional characters, their fates, their beings, their souls if you will, are controlled by Treem. If she says they are in love then they must be - unless she's trying to mislead in her interviews or if she'd said "it's an unreliable narrater situation and each viewer must make up their own minds."

Well, you can't really prove love, because it means different things to different people. What you described in the first part of your post is superficial (to me), and I might call it romance. But that may not be true for you, and that's understandable. I don't see Noah putting Allison's wants or needs above his own. I've seen him seethe with anger when she acts unlike the person he wants her to be. In my mind, that's controlling, and not at all loving. To him, who knows? I'm less clear about her feelings for him. And I don't read any interviews with the show's creative leads, so what Treem says doesn't influence me. Surely you accept that there is some bias there, though, and that she has her own POV? And the actors add layers when they bring their own interpretation into the material? The writers can tell me concrete details that I have to accept, like Allison is a nurse or the story is set in NY. If they try to sell me on Noah loving Allison, I can turn up my nose and say it's not my idea of love. You can't be told how to react to the scenes. Edited November 19, 2015 by RedInk

[SlackerInc]

It's true, you can't.  But I just think the arc of the series is unlikely to be satisfying to you if you think the protagonists feel dramatically differently about each other than the showrunner says they do.  If I were in your shoes I'd find it hard to see the show as a high quality portrayal of a different relationship than the one Treem thinks she's writing; I'd judge it a failure to put across what it is attempting.  But obviously YMMV.

[tvviewer]

I just think the arc of the series is unlikely to be satisfying to you if you think the protagonists feel dramatically differently about each other than the showrunner says they do. If I were in your shoes I'd find it hard to see the show as a high quality portrayal of a different relationship than the one Treem thinks she's writing; I'd judge it a failure to put across what it is attempting. But obviously YMMV.

The focus being on the destructive, negative aspects of their story does make it difficult, for me at least, to get what they see in each other. We are shown the doubts, the insecurities, the perceived slights and selfish behaviour. Not so much the things which make them connect (beyond sex and their shared attraction to darkness). Not saying that means they are not in love, just that side of things is not shown as much and personally I am not feeling it. Subjective, definitely, but my being unable to perceive sexual chemistry between the two in the first season (the giddy, falling in love season) hasn't helped now we are in the downward spiral phase. I just have to take it on faith they are in love and possibly right for each other. And yes, it probably does make it less satisfying and harder to view the show and the relationship as the way Treem probably intended it to come across. It's still fascinating though.

[Boundary]

 You can't be told how to react to the scenes.

 

Certainly you can't. But the show-runner can tell us what her show is all about. In the same but probably more detailed way she sat down with the actors and other writers. It's also fair to assume everyone brought their POV but what we see on the screen is the team effort. 

 

...aaaand, once again, we discover that the words of a show runner prove unhelpful in understanding the meaning of a show.

 

One fascinating thing about this show is that objective truth is not portrayed, whatever is happening is always someone's POV. And Treem herself has inserted those conflicting viewpoints - who came on to whom? Who insisted on going to the hospital? How did gun get pointed? Ultimately we are all meant to react differently, including to the love affair. Her words were as unhelpful to you as they were helpful to me, but that's ok. If Treem had said something not definitive, I'd be watching this show with different eyes. 

 

Anyway, back to the show. Are Noah and Allison in love? I think they are, basically because they are still together, and either of them is capable of walking out at any moment, if so inspired. But they don't, and they keep working together on trying to move forward. Their lives are complicated and messy, partly because of their circumstances, but also to amp up the television drama.  

 

 

Well put. I love that it's not all roses and frolicking on the beach. That Noah is not ready for another kid when she, finally, is. That they had money issues before they got wealthy.  That she is not automatically adjusting to his success. It's a relationship that came out of the ashes of two marriages but a relationship nonetheless. It's got its own problems, what relationship doesn't? But it survived, according to the flash forwards. Personally, I can't wait to see beyond the flash forwards, to the fallout from the murder trial and the baby's paternity, how they handle it as a couple and if they can survive.

[GeminiDancer]

 

BTW, since I have not seen any comments about this, I must be the only one who was afraid that Cole would sleep with Whitney.  The past comments that he always takes what belongs to Scotty (Luisa, the restaurant) and the idea that she might take revenge on Scotty by sleeping with his brother had me worried.  The way it turned out was just perfect though.

 

Yeah, Cole was not even going to remotely go there. Also, there's the whole gun situation, so she wasn't going to do that.

[Milburn Stone]

Ultimately we are all meant to react differently, including to the love affair. Her words were as unhelpful to you as they were helpful to me, but that's ok. If Treem had said something not definitive, I'd be watching this show with different eyes. 

 

I agree with your larger point that whatever helps you or me to enjoy a show better is all that matters. If external input from the show runner helps you enjoy the show, you should expose yourself to it, and if to me external input by its nature is at best extraneous and at worst destructive, I should avoid it.

 

But let me give you two reasons I feel as I do.

 

1) Intentions are not always the same as results. What ends up on the screen is not always what the show runner thinks she's putting up on the screen. Sometimes--not infrequently--what ends up on the screen is better! In fact, the writer, in analytical frame of mind, may not be fully in touch with all the levels and nuances her subconscious is achieving through the art. As with a patient on Treem's show In Treatment, what's said by the writer may unintentionally be a red herring or only obliquely get at the truth. If anyone understands this, it would be Treem--and I bet she does.

 

2) The medium of explanation, even when explanation is right-on, is reductive, compared to the medium of art. An explanation can never embody all the levels and nuances and subverbal communications contained in the art. The better the art, the more this is true. And since I give Treem credit for creating an excellent work of art in The Affair, it's more true of The Affair than of most shows. Bad shows can be helped by explanation; an excellent show like The Affair can only be hurt by it.