S14.E15: Season 14 Reunion

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

'What The HELL Do You Want Me To Say To This?'
It's Ashley who said it on the Runway reunion, but Swapnil's clearly drinki-- er, thinking it. Should you bother watching?

[sinkwriter]

From Sarah's episode post:

 

 

Lindsey's dismissal of Candice as full of shit seems maaaaaybe a little more heated than is warranted at first, but when we cut to some Cansplaining about how "women have insecurities, and it's a very beautiful thing," I realized that the home audience only saw the tip of the unearned-superiority-berg.

 

Watching that moment from last night's episode made me yell at my TV, "Seriously? Fuck you, Candice!"

 

The superiority and condescension she wielded with that comment drove me nuts. It was so thick with the underlying meaning that "Other women have insecurities, but not me." First of all, yeah, right. Second of all, "It's a very beautiful thing"?? Ugh. Is anything you say real, or is it all structured to be captured as "wise" soundbites for future PR use?

 

 

Here's everyone having meltdowns because they've had no sleep, the challenges are kookola, and Tim is playing favorites! Here's Tim asking why they got so emotional! Here's me facepalming myself so grimly at the vacuity of that question that I had a stroke in my right ring finger!

 

I also laughed at this, because seriously, Tim? You're asking why everyone thinks they got so emotional throughout the season? Seriously?! How about starting with super-short challenges + enormous lack of sleep, and just take it from there. I couldn't believe not a single person brought that up as a helpful defense. 

Edited November 13, 2015 by sinkwriter

[caci]

I am going to say I never bought into the mean girl thing. I strongly suspect that there was a reason that Ashley was picked last that had nothing to do with her weight. If she was a fantastic designer that was easy to get along with then everyone would be jumping at the chance to have her on the winning team. The fact that she was picked last actually told me a lot about her real personality. The reunion show did nothing to disprove my feeling that Ashley was not an easy person to work with. Her weight just seems a convenient excuse.

[Kromm]

If Ashley hadn't won (and if she hadn't been smug in her talking heads when others weren't around) I might say that I understood. But she's the winner. The only thing worse than a sore loser is a sore winner. It would behoove her to let it go..

I'd bet cash money if she's been made aware of the grousing in places like this and twitter about how she won because the judges were condescendingly making a statement (and ignoring her actual results) Ashely probably has some "haters" explanation for it rather than actually considering who the comments are coming from (not just here, but in a lot of blogs, I'm reading tons of people saying outright that they're plus sized woman and are disgusted by Ashley's win and what it communicates about the taste level or standards of people who are).

 

It really makes me think that she shouldn't be so damn smug. She should either be embarrassed, or if she wants to maintain a front to keep some dignity, than appropriately humble at least with her public face. I mean if her results really held up, she'd be able to fall back on that when challenged about her attitude, but if she's going to have to pull out the "haters" attitude invariably to defend her looks, she's just going to look ridiculous.

 

None of this is to even get near the attitude of Candice, or anyone else. The two issues are totally separate IMO.

[ichbin]

None of this is to even get near the attitude of Candice, or anyone else. The two issues are totally separate IMO.

Candice remained as insufferable as she did throughout the season.  She still seems to be unofficially auditioning for a position as a learned co-host,  much in the same way as Amanda Valentine did last year. 

 

It did appear to me as though Kelly and Amanda were waiting for the mean girl accusation.  They seemed pissed though rather than even slightly embarrassed.  I initially thought the girls were being unfair at the time the episode aired but now, after watching the rest of the season, I'm thinking there is more to the story. 

[Kromm]

{shrugs}

 

Nothing's saying that both Ashley AND Candice might not both be total twits.

 

The Internet loves situations to be binary. They're not usually, in reality. Seeing and reading the sweeping "mean girls" narrative pissed me off at the time because it seemed like such a generalization and such an oversimplification. Kelly never for even a moment, for example, came off like she has a mean bone in her body. Candice, for all that she's an intolerable egotist, never seemed like she really CARED enough to pick on anybody. She's the kind of arrogant that's impersonal in a way, not personal.  Less cutting others down in size and more boasting about herself.

[beowoof]

Watching this episode was not good for my blood pressure. Going over all the "drama" and highlighting the most obnoxious contestants just reminded me of how little I enjoyed the season as a whole. They only talked about the actual designs for a few minutes at the end of the episode, for crying out loud! I probably will watch next season because a year from now my memory of how annoyed I am at this show will have dulled, but I'm definitely not watching any more reunion specials.

[WhoAmIReally]

I am going to say I never bought into the mean girl thing. I strongly suspect that there was a reason that Ashley was picked last that had nothing to do with her weight. If she was a fantastic designer that was easy to get along with then everyone would be jumping at the chance to have her on the winning team. The fact that she was picked last actually told me a lot about her real personality. The reunion show did nothing to disprove my feeling that Ashley was not an easy person to work with. Her weight just seems a convenient excuse.

 

I absolutely agree with this.  From what I've seen of her on TV, she's not someone I would want to work with or be friends with.  Didn't she only compliment someone once the entire season?  All her TH's were smug and semi-snarky.  On a more shallow note, her hair looked filthy most of the time, which is a major pet peeve of mine. 

[rab01]

In an early team challenge, always avoid the person who has won challenges but whose work you don't personally like all that much. They are pretty much immune but you could go home for their inflated ego and bad taste. there are tons of examples from the show but Santino in Season 2 with the lingerie instantly springs to my mind.

[Ms Blue Jay]

It's honestly really hysterical that Candice was like "I learned that women can have insecurities."  hahahahahahahahhahahaha.  Whoever said she's like a Christopher Guest movie.. hahahahhahaha (DasFlavourPup).  Oh man, the commentary is on fire today.  

 

Another funny gem from Candice was "I know I wasn't exactly edited to be the Hero of the show."  hahahahahhahahaha.

 

My opinion of Kelly shot way, way down after this episode.  I really, thoroughly enjoyed it though.  I want to watch all the other old PR reunions because I think I usually skip it.  It was great to see more Swapnil.  Bring him back again and again!

 

I loved Blake's outfit!  I'm glad about a lot of the things that Tim brought up, like that racist comment to Swapnil.  It was so straightforward and they really took a lot of our internet/social media comments and addressed them head on.  

Edited November 13, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[slothgirl]

I'm really pissed off at the Ashley vs. the Mean Girls narrative. First of all, if I were one of the women, I would have been offended at Kelly Osborne for saying she saw them as "blaming one person instead of all of you." That's what they were asked to do!

Secondly, this whole thing feels sexist to me. 

Compounding the issue, the one allegedly ganged up on is overweight, plays the pity card, and cries a lot - totally fitting the stereotype of a victim of bullying. So they throw out the label, and it sticks, completely invalidating the possibility that Ashley was difficult to work with. But I guess I'm a bitch for saying that.

 

You and me both. And Blake is the LAST person who I think can accurately assess an interpersonal situation. He was an attention whore and affected little twit and when the subject wasn't his own preciousness, he inserted himself into it.

 

So it appears that Laurie was engaging in a bit of shit stirring when she advised Ashley that the others were planning to throw her under the bus since she admitted that she hadn't actually overheard any plotting.  

 

She did say that they were all frustrated with Ashley. That frustration didn't spring out of nowhere. I agree that Laurie was shit-stirring, because she didn't offer Ashley ANY (that we saw) insight into WHY the others were frustrated or what Ashley might want to do about it other than prepare for "betrayal" of some sort. All she did was play on and reinforce Ashley's sense of being a victim. It wasn't empowering at all, and so not something I would see as the act of a friend. Even in the reunion, Laurie's only relevance was in relation to this controversy to which she still had no additional insight. Something about the situation really triggered Laurie, but I simply don't buy that her view of it was any more accurate than anyone else's.

 

So from that sort of mutual reaction, I'm assuming nobody's crying foul on a mean-edit in general. ... They did get called out in the paintball episode, and clearly disagreed with that happening in the first place and the accusations therein, but still nobody argued they were painted in an unfair way, really. Even Candace gave her version of the line that echoes for all reality show contestants everywhere, that that person from the first Real World said: they can't air what you didn't say, or something to that effect.

Nobody, except perhaps Lori (Laurie?) came off very good in this one, but they also didn't seem to notice or object to the cases when they came off badly in the rehashing. They seemed for the most part pretty chill with their awful selves.

 

Well, Joseph thought he was edited badly, but Merline's reaction to him saying so told the story better than any rebuttal could!

 

Disagree that Laurie came off very good. (see above)

 

Agree that the contestants disagreed on what actually happened in the paintball episode, and that is unrelated to whether they thought they were portrayed unfairly in the editing. After all, I saw the same show as everyone else, and I saw it completely differently from everyone who thought Ashley had her ideas "shut down". I saw others (Candice particularly) trying to get Ashley to give input (outright told her "You need to present your ideas too" or something to that effect) and Ashley saying  something along the lines of not wanting to offer any ideas and then have everyone hate them.

 

I can't see being critical about Ashley feeling proud of herself---she won, after all.  If she did anything but praise herself, she would be accused of being falsely humble.

There's a huge difference between being proud of what you accomplished and relishing the downfall or comeuppance of your competitors. When some of us (speaking for myself, I guess) say she is "smug", we don't mean justifiably proud of herself. We are speaking of her attitude about others' failure, not her own success.

 

I still feel that if Swapnil did have a strategy to hold himself back, SO WHAT!?! Tim can personally dislike his work ethic all he wants, but going to the judges was out of line, IMO.

 

Re Ashley and the mean girls, I think Ashley needs to take her share of the blame.  They were all at fault for the terrible collection.  I think Ashley went into it with a huge chip on her shoulder, and who likes to work with someone with a wounded air trying to make you feel guilty?  Given the small margin of difference in the awfulness of all the garments, Ashley's was an acceptable choice as the worse.   Kelly Osborne and Heidi were out of line, too, with the egging on.  Everyone needs to grow up.  YMMV.

 

Gee, this reunion didn't change my opinion one iota, just stirred up all the nastiness.  I guess that's what reunions are for.

Agree with all of the above.

 

 

I think Ashley fully expected to be chosen early on, given how well she'd done thus far, so it flattened her when she wasn't.  But those other women were ridiculous (especially Amanda and Candice) and they did pile on Ashley. I don't believe for a second that every single one of them thought Ashley's outfit was the worst and that she contributed the least. I saw plenty of scenes where they ignored or dismissed her even trying to suggest anything or ask questions. Candice was especially guilty of that.

 

And they continue to perpetuate the mean girl persona in how they reacted to the whole question on last night's show. There wasn't one person who admitted, maybe I could have handled things better. Instead they all got defensive. I think that's pretty telling.

I'm not exactly sure how Kelly at least could have handled things better. Up until she named Ashley as the one to go (and she even said it as a question: "I don't know.. um.. Ashley?") what exactly had she done "wrong"?

 

But I agree that it would have been nice to see some assessment of how they failed as a team, regardless of this controversy. They were a mess even BEFORE that whole scene, and they would have been a mess even without Ashley. None of them seemed to have any insight as to what went wrong with their whole approach to a joint collection.

 

I disagree that Ashley seemed "flattened" by the rejection. She sat there looking more and more steamed and righteously angry. She didn't look hurt; she had a look of "How DARE you girls not choose me!". The more bitch-faced she got from what comes off as her sense of entitlement, the less likely I would want to choose her (and this is coming from someone who always got chosen last myself). Then once the team got to work, she turned back into Eeyore. Things were going in a bad direction with the team's efforts and she got disgusted and withdrew. I have NO trouble believing that from the others' perspective, she contributed the least. (and as I stated above, I saw people soliciting her feedback far more than anyone shutting her down)

 

We learned from the reunion that the guys had a pact already, but the girls didn't know that (and apparently not all the guys did either). The girls had no reason to assume that it was totally up to them to choose her, and they were under no obligation to do so.

 

A thought about Jake and his pup (unrelated to the post above). They didn't give Jake a nod for his loss, but what they DID do was NOT delve into the Jake/Lindsey controversy which made Jake look pretty bad. They wouldn't have had time for it, but I wonder if they decided it was off limits because of what happened to Jake later.

Edited November 13, 2015 by slothgirl

[beaker73]

So I just watched the reunion. At the time of the Mean GirlGate Challenge, Ashley had won one challenge on her own and shared one with Candice, so it's not like she was running away with the competition (also, let's not forget if she hadn't had immunity Week 2, she likely would've been auf'd for that sack she sent down the runway.) i think she was thinking that since she and Candice worked well together, she thought them to be BFFs and assumed Candice would pick her first for the team. Watch her face when Candice picks Amanda-- she smirks and rolls her eyes. It was at that moment that the walls went up and she went into victim mode. She went into that challenge with a bad attitude and that was that.

The fact that the other "mean girls" expressed frustration at her leads me to believe that she was a pain in the ass to work with. I don't think there was any bullying going on and I certainly didn't see any pile on on the runway. They were asked to pick the teammate who they thought should go home. Kelly went first and it seemed like she genuinely thought Ashley to be that person. Right or wrong, I think the others followed suit to save their behinds. It doesn't make them bullies.

Oh, and Blake is a big faker. That ESP/ESPN joke is from "Mean Girls" and he sure as hell knows how to tell time. What a tool.

Edited November 14, 2015 by beaker73

[millennium]

Yes,yes,yes to the "not mean girl" posts. How the hell are they mean girls??? Somebody had to be last in a schoolyard pick. That's how it works.

 

It was a paintball challenge, which generally requires participants to be somewhat quick and nimble.   Why wouldn't they choose someone Ashley's size last?

 

As it turned out, Ashley was pretty handy with a paintball gun, but who knew?  Based on the information available at the time teams were chosen, I would have picked her last too.    The show is about winning, not resolving childhood traumas.

 

If Ashley wants to blame someone for her hurt feelings, she ought to redirect her resentment at Heidi Klum, Tim Gunn and the showrunners who deliberately inserted a schoolyard pick in a physical challenge where the odds were overwhelming that Ashley would be chosen last, no matter how the teams were composed (boys vs. girls, mixed teams, etc.).    Whether Ashley gets it or not, the show set her up to be humiliated -- and Heidi made a big deal of being sure everyone noticed.

Edited November 14, 2015 by millennium

[Julia]

And too, Ashley was pretty vocal after the fabric-snatch in Madison Square Garden about being at a huge disadvantage in any challenge that involved speed or agility, so it's not as if anyone had to do more than take her at her word. 

 

That said, hard for me to believe that Joseph thought being the he-man woman hater's club was somehow going to absolve the boys from having a shitty attitude. Except, of course, that it's Joseph.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Julia

[guilfoyleatpp]

I thought it was telling that no one apologized for the "mean girl" episode...and that FURTHER they wanted Ashley to apologize for...for what exactly? For pointing out that they acted like they were picking roommates at summer camp instead of a team to win?

Blake called Candace out on being head bitch by not saying that she wasn't so bad. 

Everyone was sick of Candace's pontificating, which was hilarious. 

[caci]

It was a paintball challenge, which generally requires participants to be somewhat quick and nimble. Why wouldn't they choose someone Ashley's size last?

As it turned out, Ashley was pretty handy with a paintball gun, but who knew? Based on the information available at the time teams were chosen, I would have picked her last too. The show is about winning, not resolving childhood traumas.

If Ashley wants to blame someone for her hurt feelings, she ought to redirect her resentment at Heidi Klum, Tim Gunn and the showrunners who deliberately inserted a schoolyard pick in a physical challenge where the odds were overwhelming that Ashley would be chosen last, no matter how the teams were composed (boys vs. girls, mixed teams, etc.). Whether Ashley gets it or not, the show set her up to be humiliated -- and Heidi made a big deal of being sure everyone noticed.

The paintball challenge wasn't clearly defined yet when they picked teams, although one could assume what they were going to have to do. I still think that there was a deeper reason for Candace to not pick her first, esp. since she worked with her on the previous challenge. I just can:t fault Heidi and Tim.

Edited November 14, 2015 by caci

[AuntieDiane6]

 

If she was a fantastic designer that was easy to get along with then everyone would be jumping at the chance to have her on the winning team. The fact that she was picked last actually told me a lot about her real personality. The reunion show did nothing to disprove my feeling that Ashley was not an easy person to work with. Her weight just seems a convenient excuse.

 

She got along with Candice during that earlier challenge, didn't she? And they WON.  Nobody appeared to get along BETTER with Candice than she did. Joseph and Edmund were picked before her and they CLEARLY had issues with their designing partners.  And by the end, the "boys" picked MERLINE over her.  MERLINE??  

[atticdrama]

 I will say that a classic mean girls defense is to say, "Oh gosh (victim) we *try* to be nice to you but you're so (weird/different/quiet/moody)...." Usually done tearfully because they've been called out. 

This is a pretty astute observation.

 

Candace and her cronies were utterly full of it. That was such classically transparent nonsense. How about we forget all the interpersonal drama and look at the clothes (remember them) from the paintball episode? Everyone's favorite l'il trooper Kelly's entry was a hot mess. Amanda's wasn't much better. Ashely was simply a scapegoat; her design was middling at worst. Candace fancies herself some kind of astute manager and appointed herself leader. She failed miserably at both and probably deserved the auf. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Mob mentality and/or bullying happens nearly every season.  This time it happened against Ashley.  That doesn't make it right.

The craziest part of it for me was that none of the Mean Girls apologized or backed down or even acknowledged that they didn't act perfectly on screen.  They were all loudly screaming in their own defense.  They seem so ANGRY by the editors' portrayal of them.  (Actually, Candice seemed the most calm about the whole thing.)

 

Not one of them gave a good reason for not picking Ashley.  Not one of them gave a good reason for thinking she should have gone home.  Why would you pick the one whose outfit's STYLE you didn't like?  That's a matter of taste, that's not the fucking question Heidi asks on the runway.  That's a bullshit answer!

 

If one of them had just said, Look I didn't want to work with Ashley because I like other people better or I picked my friends, I would respect that honesty.  But nobody gave a good reason for anything.  It's all just loud screaming, anger, defensiveness, false outrage.  And they tried to turn it around on Ashley, hahahaha that is some bullshit.  The bad behaviour to Ashley started before she did anything to earn it.

 

I've seen that Mean Girl thing where they attack the person they've been terrorizing over months and months and months, crying and calling her mean for ignoring her.  We've seen Helen do that to Alexandria.  It's a thing that happens.  I'm not saying this particular group of girls did it, but man... I am just saying it exists.  Deflecting.  They certainly did some deflection.  It's a distraction technique, you yell louder and you say false things and make accusations so everyone forgets what they were originally questioning you about.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[guilfoyleatpp]

Look at a couple of seasons ago (?) when everyone decided that Michael Costello was a loser. He ended up doing quite well, but for a while he suffered a great deal of disdain and unfair criticism of his designs (from the other designers).

 

I completely agree this happens regularly, and Ashley was the victim this time. And with both her and Michael Costello there is a sense of "oh no, not this again" that they express through non verbal cues. 

No one looked good in that rehash of the paintball episode. 

When Candace first said that Ashley cried a lot and it was frustrating and/or beautiful (I don't recall her first comment), Swapnil rolled his eyes so far back in his head that I thought I could only see whites. I had to rewind and make my husband watch it.  Classico.

[candall]

I also laughed at this, because seriously, Tim? You're asking why everyone thinks they got so emotional throughout the season? Seriously?! How about starting with super-short challenges + enormous lack of sleep, and just take it from there. I couldn't believe not a single person brought that up as a helpful defense. 

Exactly.  This is the moment when I just drew a line through the whole thing and marked the entire "Reunion Show" down as pure bullshit.  That montage of tears is coming from a group of people who are severely sleep deprived, on top of being deliberately stressed and stretched to their limits.  For everyone to climb on the wagon and spout the party line that "we're all just sensitive because we care so much" is such transparent scripted nonsense that it's insulting.

 

It doesn't take a google-master to learn about some of the show's tricks to keep everyone exhausted and off-balance, e.g. the PA's waking the designers in the middle of the night, making them pack and change rooms.  If the producers want to play that game and they feel it increases the chance of drama, it's their show, but it's just fucking rude to run a series of emotional breakdown clips and ask, "Well what in the world is all that about?"

[mansonlamps]

Hanmiao was creeping me out when she was pawing Blake like he was a.) God's gift to women and b.) straight. It honestly looked like she was trying to get with him and I had to agree with Tim's "Get a room" observation. Eeew.

[slothgirl]

Not one of them gave a good reason for not picking Ashley.  Not one of them gave a good reason for thinking she should have gone home.  Why would you pick the one whose outfit's STYLE you didn't like?  That's a matter of taste, that's not the fucking question Heidi asks on the runway.  That's a bullshit answer!

 

If one of them had just said, Look I didn't want to work with Ashley because I like other people better or I picked my friends, I would respect that honesty.  But nobody gave a good reason for anything.  It's all just loud screaming, anger, defensiveness, false outrage.  And they tried to turn it around on Ashley, hahahaha that is some bullshit.  The bad behaviour to Ashley started before she did anything to earn it.

Really? Why would someone suggest that the look they liked least should be the one to go home? To me that is a very good reason, not BS. On fact, it's the least personal reason someone could give in order to get out from under an awkward question. Another good reason for choosing is that someone didn't contribute to the team or in some way worked against the team, but that's a harder issue to talk about.

 

As far as defending themselves, yeah, they ended up looking petty, but it turned into a shouting match and Tim did nothing to reign it in or get to the bottom of it. Of course, where's the drama in that? If he had taken control of the scene and asked specific questions of specific people, maybe we could have found something out. But just maybe, what we would have found out wouldn't have played to the chosen narrative of Ashley as victim. I didn't see anything like what was done to Michael Costello or Alexandria in this season. And let's not forget Orange Josh sending whassername to the restroom in tears. There weren't the "She sucks; she doesn't deserve to even be here" talking heads about Ashley either.

 

I just hate the use of the term bullying all the time. I was bullied in school. Taunted. Gum stuck in my hair. Hit in the hallways. Thumped in the head in the library from behind. Being picked last is not bullying. I was picked last even among my own little circle of friends. Did it hurt? Hell, yeah. But it wasn't bullying. Not being popular isn't bullying either. No one is obligated to like anyone else or choose them for anything. Merline was picked next to last and we didn't see her sulking. We did see her speaking up with her all male team, which could have been intimidating and awkward, given her history with Joseph. Ashley started harrumphing long before she was the last person, and for all of Heidi's incredulous reaction, Ashley won one challenge solo and then turned out a piece of total DREK. I agree with a poster upthread who said she wasn't REALLY some frontrunner.

 

Exactly.  This is the moment when I just drew a line through the whole thing and marked the entire "Reunion Show" down as pure bullshit.  That montage of tears is coming from a group of people who are severely sleep deprived, on top of being deliberately stressed and stretched to their limits.  For everyone to climb on the wagon and spout the party line that "we're all just sensitive because we care so much" is such transparent scripted nonsense that it's insulting.

 

It doesn't take a google-master to learn about some of the show's tricks to keep everyone exhausted and off-balance, e.g. the PA's waking the designers in the middle of the night, making them pack and change rooms.  If the producers want to play that game and they feel it increases the chance of drama, it's their show, but it's just fucking rude to run a series of emotional breakdown clips and ask, "Well what in the world is all that about?"

There was so much BS in this episode it wasn't funny. Tim whitewashing his behavior. People agreeing that the editing is fair. Claims that thing like the button bag aren't rigged. They can say it all they want... we just don't believe it anymore. A bunch of people picking Ashley's 1st outfit as one of the best of the season against things like Edmond's paintball gown; Jake's great capri ensemble in that challenge; Edmond's paper dress; Kelly's bridge (and that's just what comes to mind without any review.) Swapnil (of all people!) saying that Ashley's final collection really was the best.

 

Nope.. I can't take much of anything about this show seriously.

Edited November 14, 2015 by slothgirl

[Broderbits]

I think they are all contractually obligated to say whatever TPTB want to advance the chosen narrative. It's been painfully obvious for many seasons now that there's a ton of manipulation going on, despite Tim Gunn's protests to the contrary. To quote Judge Marilyn Milian: Who am I going to believe - you or my lying eyes?

[Knuckles]

If being a victim is your modus op. and you can make it work, fine, then own it. Ashley uses her imagined victimhood as emotional blackmail...she is a terribly sensitive child, deeply creative, who is abused by jealous, mean spirited women who fail to acknowledge her talent and tender soul. And she is an emotional child...she does not respond as an adult, she withdraws, she sulks, she bursts into endless tears, she points her fingers at her imagined tormentors. At no point does she acknowledge that she failed to actively participate in the paintball design mess...she simply faded. As she sent one disastrous effort after another down the runway and was not aufed, it was clear she was the designated winner. So, now the triumphant, smug Ashley...the uber victim for the win. 

Except a rigged game is never fun to watch, and if the producers thought this was some heart-warming drama, they be fools.

[atticdrama]

Blake is the LAST person who I think can accurately assess an interpersonal situation. He was an attention whore and affected little twit and when the subject wasn't his own preciousness, he inserted himself into it.

 

Blake wasn't my favorite by far but I bet I knows a thing or two about the kind of crappy group dynamic  at play in this situation.

 

The moment of truth in that reunion was Lindsey whining about Ashley being her "friend." Girl, please. 

 

I actually think Swapnil might have said that about Ashley without being prompted by the show producers. When asked who she was friends with among the designers, Ashley named Swapnil first.  Maybe I'm wrong, but Swapnil doesn't seem like a mean person (you can say he drinks too much, smokes too much, has a lazy work ethic in relationship to this show and I will accept those characterizations, but he doesn't seem mean to me).  With Ashley before him, and having nothing to lose by being gracious, of course he would say her runway show was the best of the four (while thinking to himself, "but mine was better").  It was an act of friendship and cost him nothing.

Yes, I agree. He is all over her social media.

[breezy424]

Couple of things stand out to me here.  The word 'bully' has come up a few times.  Ashley never accused anyone of bullying her.  No one accused anyone of bullying Ashley.  The only person who said 'bullying' was Kelly.  A 'mean girl' doesn't necessarily mean a 'bully'.  And I don't think anyone had that in mind in the situation.  Well except Kelly but when Kelly said that, IMO, she was trying to deflect back to Ashley by chiming in with Lindsey that Ashley didn't defend them against Blake.  Which was ridiculous and I give Laurie credit for responding to that.  These girls just told the judges that Ashley should go home and Ashley is supposed to defend them.  And Kelly's response was, "What about my feelings?"

 

For me, it wasn't about Ashley being 'difficult' to work with as some have theorized here.  That team was based on a clique.  Oh yeah, ego Candice picked Amanda so she could help her.  And then Kelly and Lindsey are chosen.  The funny part is that Candice and the other three can't come up with an idea.  It's suddenly going to happen.  It was all about them. 

 

And the only person who apologized about the challenge was Ashley.  She apologized for getting emotional.  Candice, Kelly, Lindsey and Amanda had nothing to say about their contribution to the lost except to admit that they were a dysfunctional team.  They lost the challenge, not because of anything that Ashley or Laurie did, but because Candice took over with the other three going along.  Should Ashley and Laurie spoken up more?  Yeah.  Would it have done any good to save the team?  Probably not because the clique had the numbers and they put their friendships over the goal of 'winning'.  That's the way it was from when they started choosing the team.  And I put the blame for the loss mostly on Candice. 

[SlackerInc]

I thought it was interesting that Tim went straight for the elephant in the room and...oh, shit, that is not a good metaphor.  But it is the idiom!  Anyway, he laid out on the table the question of whether Ashley won because she broke the plus size glass ceiling--and even Ashley acknowledged that it might have been the case, but that she was just glad to sort of be this pioneer.

 

And here's the thing: I think that's a good idea, to have a pioneer in this regard.  (Maybe next we can get some models that are somewhere in between the ones in Ashley's show and the mostly emaciated ones they use the rest of the time, which would be the most attractive sweet spot IMO.)  But they should have done it by having a whole season dedicated to that pursuit.  Doing it this way at worst makes props out of all the other designers--completely unfair to them that they land on a season where they are competing for second place.  At best (if Ashley won "fair and square", whatever that means in this context) it still makes for a skewed competition, literally mixing weight classes.  It would almost be like if an art competition involved three portfolios of charcoal drawings and one collage.  How could you judge which is "best"?

 

She's the one I believed the LEAST. I could buy Kelly choosing Ashley because she went first in choosing who to go home and maybe their design choices are completely different and she thought Ashley's was the least interesting of the group (which is interesting to me because I remember hating Kelly's from that challenge), but the rest just fell in line and Amanda seemed the biggest liar about it. When I watched it then and again tonight I felt she was such an actress about it, like she was pretending to be thoughtful and look over all the designs and then happen to choose Ashley like everyone else.

 

Thing is, there is a game theoretical* reason to just go with what everyone else said, that I think a lot of people understand implicitly.  If you pick someone new, you have just made an enemy.  They are going to be mad at you for naming them, and they will remember you as the only one that called them out.  Whereas if a whole bunch of other people have already named Ashley, being one more to the party will not bring as much individual ire on you--the blame is diffused among the multiple people who named her.

 

I'm really pissed off at the Ashley vs. the Mean Girls narrative. First of all, if I were one of the women, I would have been offended at Kelly Osborne for saying she saw them as "blaming one person instead of all of you." That's what they were asked to do! The judges asked each one to pick a designer who is most to blame for the losing look, and they weren't given the option to name a few. So they do, and they then get criticized for it? It's like the judges set them up. How is that fair?

 

THIS.  I'm so irked that they treated that whole "Ashley should go home" thing as though they just brought it up unprompted.  They were asked to name someone by the judges.  Apparently they were supposed to understand that as "name someone other than the fat girl to go home"?  Or, maybe, more charitably, "take it easy on someone if they have already been picked a time or two, and mix it up" (in which case Kelly is still blameless since she went first).

 

Let me say for this for anyone on the fence about stopping with PR. I'd seen every season since S1, but half-way through this season I decided to cut the cord (to all cable, not PR in particular). I sort of thought PR was on Hulu, but didn't check enough to see that it's not the current season, so soon realized I wouldn't be able to watch the rest of this season.

 

I am a cordcutter myself and I watch on Lifetime.com.

 

I'd bet cash money if she's been made aware of the grousing in places like this and twitter about how she won because the judges were condescendingly making a statement (and ignoring her actual results) Ashely probably has some "haters" explanation for it rather than actually considering who the comments are coming from (not just here, but in a lot of blogs, I'm reading tons of people saying outright that they're plus sized woman and are disgusted by Ashley's win and what it communicates about the taste level or standards of people who are).

 

Can you link me?  I'm curious to see this avalanche of criticism.  And the thing is, it doesn't really advance the cause of plus-sized designers if everyone is crying foul.  Again, they should have just done a season dedicated to plus-size.

 

---------
*Or maybe since this reality show does not involve contestants voting each other out, it's just social rather than game-theoretical.

[breezy424]

I would also like a link to the 'ton' of plus size bloggers who are disgusted by Ashley's win and what it communicates about the taste levels of people who are because frankly I haven't seen it.  

 

The problem with the judges asking who should go home on the paintball challenge is that Ashley's design isn't the worst.  And you gotta love Kelly's admission that she chose Ashley, not because of her design, but because she walked away from the clique's inability to come up with something cohesive.  That says it all about what was going on here. 

[LotusFlower]

Not one of them gave a good reason for not picking Ashley.  Not one of them gave a good reason for thinking she should have gone home.  Why would you pick the one whose outfit's STYLE you didn't like?  That's a matter of taste, that's not the fucking question Heidi asks on the runway.  That's a bullshit answer!

That's not true. Kelly, for one, said she picked Ashley because she wasn't a team player. Secondly, I'm not sure what's wrong with using a different taste level or design aesthetic in choosing a pick for a question that's pretty uncomfortable and awkward, and I even think unfair, to answer. And btw, Heidi's question was as generic and broad as could be -- "Somebody has to go. Who should it be?" In the real world, bosses use all sorts of reasons for choosing who to lay off when they need to make cuts, from talent to personality to compatibility, etc., so how was this different?

[Miss Ruth]

MS BLUE JAY said, "Not one of them gave a good reason for not picking Ashley."

 

They shouldn't have to give a reason for not picking Ashley.  After all, the others didn't have to explain why they picked the way they did. 

 

Ashley got a "poor me" look on her face as soon as Candice chose Amanda, and it went downhill from there.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Miss Ruth

[sinkwriter]

 

It was a paintball challenge, which generally requires participants to be somewhat quick and nimble.   Why wouldn't they choose someone Ashley's size last?

 

What's funny is, not only was Ashley the star player in that paintball game, but the most likely person to be "quick and nimble" on the guys' team was Blake and he hid until the challenge was over so that he wouldn't get hit. The guys were lucky they didn't end up needing him to get the fabrics they wanted; otherwise choosing the most "quick and nimble" did nothing for them.

 

Perhaps the lesson to be learned for that portion of the challenge is not to stereotype people of either size. The larger person might have more skill than you think, and the smaller person might be a total chicken.

[sinkwriter]

 

Being picked last is not bullying. I was picked last even among my own little circle of friends. Did it hurt? Hell, yeah. But it wasn't bullying. Not being popular isn't bullying either.

 

For me, the paintball choosing wasn't the "bullying" part, or the "mean girl" part. It was the ostracizing of Ashley during the discussions (at least from the editing point of view that I saw) AND the way I thought they all piled up on her on the runway in an attempt to send her home. THAT part was what I thought was "mean girl." The paintball part was just hurt feelings, but she seemed to try to get over that, until they continued to ignore her and talk over her. Then I think Ashley felt like, well, why bother? Not the wisest choice, but she's young, immature and feeling hurt and offended. Add to that over-tired and frustrated by the lack of cohesion or order to the challenge -- which I put mostly on Candice because she pretty much appointed herself in charge, especially taking Amanda under her wing (oh please) -- and I'm not surprised Ashley combusted during that challenge.

 

But I do still think those other women did not behave well, and I think they're not being fully honest about that because it will make them look bad and now's not the time they want that to happen, when they're trying to grab any possible opportunities that may come to them from their 15 minutes of PR fame.

Edited November 14, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Surrealist]

I am going to say I never bought into the mean girl thing. I strongly suspect that there was a reason that Ashley was picked last that had nothing to do with her weight. If she was a fantastic designer that was easy to get along with then everyone would be jumping at the chance to have her on the winning team. The fact that she was picked last actually told me a lot about her real personality. The reunion show did nothing to disprove my feeling that Ashley was not an easy person to work with. Her weight just seems a convenient excuse.

I couldn't agree more with you.

[film noire]

It didn't all come from her past or her own personal self esteem or weight issues. She was convinced they didn't want her collaboration because she was chosen last even though she'd already won TWO CHALLENGES. I think Ashley fully expected to be chosen early on, given how well she'd done thus far, so it flattened her when she wasn't. 

 

Agreed -- and it's sexist to pretend that Ashley didn't have the right to (as men routinely do, being rewarded/praised for winning, when women are not)  factor her wins into any valid assessment of why she was being picked last. 

 

 

That's not true. Kelly, for one, said she picked Ashley because she wasn't a team player

 

Funny that, since Ashley won one of her challenges on a team.

Edited November 14, 2015 by film noire

[RemoteControlFreak]

It was a paintball challenge, which generally requires participants to be somewhat quick and nimble.   Why wouldn't they choose someone Ashley's size last?

That might be part of it, though I'm not sure the full extent of the paintball challenge was known during team picking?

 

I think they picked the people they knew. By Ashley's own admission she didn't get to know the other contestants. She whined during the reunion that no one made an effort to get to know her except for a few people. It sounded like she didn't make any effort to know them, either.

 

It makes sense. If I'm at my job or in some competition and asked to pick teammates for an unknown challenge, I'm going to pick people I know over people I don't know. 

[Kromm]

Funny that, since Ashley won one of her challenges on a team.

Not sure that invalidates Kelly's opinion though. If it's true it just makes it ironic.

[Kromm]

She whined during the reunion that no one made an effort to get to know her except for a few people. It sounded like she didn't make any effort to know them, either.

And yet she only blamed the girls, even though the guys were also people who didn't get to know her.

 

Really the only person with any credible reason for her to blame was Candice, simply because she already HAD been forced into an interaction by the team challenge, and even there, and even admitting Candice probably was a class A bitch, that doesn't mean Ashley was magically some sterling lovely person who made the experience so lovely it was Candice's loss that she didn't make any further efforts after that. So it seems to me that this whole thing was butthurt over Candice not picking her and it spilled onto the others.

[Broderbits]

breezy424 said:

 

I would also like a link to the 'ton' of plus size bloggers who are disgusted by Ashley's win and what it communicates about the taste levels of people who are because frankly I haven't seen it.

I don't know about "ton", but there are many complaints in the comments on Tom&Lorenzo's page about the finale http://tomandlorenzo.com/2015/11/pop-style-opinionfest-project-runway-season-14-finale-blowout/

and in the comments on the various blogs on Lifetime's Official Project Runway page,

and some complaints on PR's Facebook page (although there most of the commentary seems to be fans who love everything about the show and can see no problems at all). I don't do Twitter or any of the other social media things, so that's all I can offer.

[Julia]

I think being bullied is her brand. If you look back at her first public exposure (when she was invited to show at Full Figured Fashion Week on the basis of some pictures of her senior project she posted on Instagram, and no wonder she and Blake are such great friends), she talked about being bullied. And now, having won Fashion week with a sketch collection she couldn't possibly have spent $9k on, she's giving interviews to People about being bullied.

There is always a shitty bully in PR, and a few also-rans who try to set up a cheerleader table. The producers encourage it. If they're going to award the trophy to someone who's had a hard life and sailed past the bullying to make original clothes nobody's ever seen before with grace and dignity, they should have called Patricia onstage and given it to her. Pretty sure she outweighed Ashley, even if she chose to speak through her designs and not her tale of woe. But, sadly for her, that was hipster douche year.

I guess it's like any other mainstream acceptance movement. We've arrived when one of us only has to be mediocre to make it. As long as there are other clothes available.

[breezy424]

breezy424 said:

I don't know about "ton", but there are many complaints in the comments on Tom&Lorenzo's page about the finale http://tomandlorenzo.com/2015/11/pop-style-opinionfest-project-runway-season-14-finale-blowout/

and in the comments on the various blogs on Lifetime's Official Project Runway page,

and some complaints on PR's Facebook page (although there most of the commentary seems to be fans who love everything about the show and can see no problems at all). I don't do Twitter or any of the other social media things, so that's all I can offer.

Thanks for your response.  The OP was not talking about 'comments' made to blogs.  The OP stated tons of plus sized 'bloggers'.  And again, I didn't see 'that'.

[Kromm]

Thanks for your response.  The OP was not talking about 'comments' made to blogs.  The OP stated tons of plus sized 'bloggers'.  And again, I didn't see 'that'.

Good lord, I had no idea a federal case was going to made out of a casual word choice. If I revise it from "ton" to "a bunch" and regret the fact that at the hour I posted it I bulk-included comment sections and didn't specify that, can we move on from that?

 

In essence the important part of the post was that IF Ashley saw public opposition, that I bet she'd be in denial mode. Quantifying it exactly is hardly necessary to the main argument being made (about her smug attitude). If it was ONE person out there saying that, the argument would be the same: that I don't see any openness to criticism in her, or any grace in her manner of accepting victory.

[yeswedo]

Posting the same reminders here from the finale thread

 

A few reminders as it feels like there is a lot of point/counterpoint discussion.

• All posts reflect the opinion of the poster
• It's ok to disagree with opinions as long as you remain civil
• You are not obligated to respond to every post you disagree with
• It's ok to share your opinion once, or even three times, and then move on
• The purpose of this forum is to discuss Project Runway, not change other people's opinions

[breezy424]

Good lord, I had no idea a federal case was going to made out of a casual word choice. If I revise it from "ton" to "a bunch" and regret the fact that at the hour I posted it I bulk-included comment sections and didn't specify that, can we move on from that?

 

In essence the important part of the post was that IF Ashley saw public opposition, that I bet she'd be in denial mode. Quantifying it exactly is hardly necessary to the main argument being made (about her smug attitude). If it was ONE person out there saying that, the argument would be the same: that I don't see any openness to criticism in her, or any grace in her manner of accepting victory.

I'm by no means making a federal case out it.  The fact is that there is a big difference between a poster leaving a comment and a blogger.  But as you said you stated, it was your choice of words.  That's on you, not me.  And again, I didn't see a bunch or a ton of plus size bloggers or comments that were 'disgusted' by Ashley's win.  Your word.  My opinion.

 

As for moving on, gladly but all I did was reply to your post and then another poster who replied to my post.  Hey, that's what a forum is about.

 

I'll just politely disagree with your second assertion.  :) 

[Kromm]

Well I've already seen right here discussion about if it was better to advance a plus sized agenda/movement to simply have a winner, any winner (the "public exposure for a cause is never bad" argument) or if having someone present something inferior under that banner sent a different message that would cause people to simply dismiss the win (that it's basically an act of grand condescension).

[ThatsDarling]

And yet she only blamed the girls, even though the guys were also people who didn't get to know her.

 

Really the only person with any credible reason for her to blame was Candice, simply because she already HAD been forced into an interaction by the team challenge, and even there, and even admitting Candice probably was a class A bitch, that doesn't mean Ashley was magically some sterling lovely person who made the experience so lovely it was Candice's loss that she didn't make any further efforts after that. So it seems to me that this whole thing was butthurt over Candice not picking her and it spilled onto the others.

Unfortunately, women are almost always criticized more for behavior that men get away with. 

 

For someone who seems so camera-ready, I'm surprised Candice didn't realize how bad not choosing Ashley would look and that it would be used against her. 

Edited November 14, 2015 by ThatsDarling

[Julia]

For someone who seems so camera-ready, I'm surprised Candice didn't realize how bad not choosing Ashley would look and that it would be used against her.

I'm really not. If you look at her mentor pose over the course of the season (and, oh my yes to whoever pointed out how she was given the Amanda-who-knows-Adam-Levine petsplaining spot), it's not that surprising that she chose the contestant who was burbling with unearned self esteem and couldn't get off the bottom to play Pygmalion with.

Then too, Candice strikes me as very much a creature of the male gaze, and I can't really see her viewing Ashley as meaningful competition in any arena she competes in. She probably saw Amanda as the braver choice, since she's kind of a prefab pretty-pretty too.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Julia

[NewDigs]

I'm surprised she didn't choose her because they worked so well together and even got the win on a previous challenge.

[Kromm]

I'm surprised she didn't choose her because they worked so well together and even got the win on a previous challenge.

Success doesn't necessarily connote them having worked together well. We may have gotten some footage that lightly suggested harmony, but that doesn't really say what was left on the cutting room floor.

 

Or if Candice is a big enough egotist she may have simply attributed the majority of the win to her own efforts.  Think about it. (Wrong or right) if she saw Ashley just as some "helper", that would easily explain why she didn't give a crap about using her talents later on. 

[slothgirl]

Couple of things stand out to me here.  The word 'bully' has come up a few times.  Ashley never accused anyone of bullying her.  No one accused anyone of bullying Ashley.  The only person who said 'bullying' was Kelly.  A 'mean girl' doesn't necessarily mean a 'bully'.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the term "mean girl". I still think it is an unfair assessment of some of those other women. Candice was certainly insufferable and even Lindsey obviously felt that way based on her reaction to Candice while watching the reunion from the green room. (I actually thought Lindsey had some spot-on observations in all of her talking heads, and I liked her even when I didn't like her clothes) Amanda was .. Amanda. Kelly doesn't seem to have a mean bone in her body.

 

I also think it is a sexist term and attitude, because it's only women that get lumped together under that sort of label despite being individuals with possibly individual reasons for their actions. Are there gangs of girls in schools going around bullying a designated victim a la' "Heathers"? Yes. Is every group of women who become closer to each other than to someone else being "mean"? No.

 

Were they even all that close? Given Lindsey's snarky comment during the reunion, I'm not so sure. When you are used to being on the outside looking in, as Ashley is, you always assume that there IS an "in" and that everyone else is in it. Some of these people got along better than others. I don't think the remaining women at that point were all some tight little group that excluded only Ashley and Laurie (and Merline). Maybe they were, but when you have 7 women and you get along better with 2-3 of them and not the other 3-4, that hardly feels like you are excluding any one person specifically. (If I were in a group of 7 women, most likely I would actively DISLIKE at least half of them) My guess is that it was less a case of a solid group of friends and more a case of X got along with Y, then Y also liked Z etc.

 

The problem with the judges asking who should go home on the paintball challenge is that Ashley's design isn't the worst.  And you gotta love Kelly's admission that she chose Ashley, not because of her design, but because she walked away from the clique's inability to come up with something cohesive.  That says it all about what was going on here. 

 

I'm not sure what you are saying that it says. Ashley walked away from a disaster, but it was still HER team too and walking away just doesn't fly. Not on PR and not in the real working world. So yes, it says something that she walked away from the team's inability, but if you are saying it speaks to the team's failure, I'd counter that it also speaks to Ashley's.

 

I'd say Kelly's was the worst outfit, but what was she going to do.. name herself?

 

I also don't think ANY of them know enough about leadership to recognize (then or now) that Candice's self-appointed-leader attitude, while being incapable of actually leading, was their downfall. None of the others had strong personalities to override her or take charge themselves.

 

For me, the paintball choosing wasn't the "bullying" part, or the "mean girl" part. It was the ostracizing of Ashley during the discussions (at least from the editing point of view that I saw) AND the way I thought they all piled up on her on the runway in an attempt to send her home. THAT part was what I thought was "mean girl." The paintball part was just hurt feelings, but she seemed to try to get over that, until they continued to ignore her and talk over her. Then I think Ashley felt like, well, why bother? Not the wisest choice, but she's young, immature and feeling hurt and offended. Add to that over-tired and frustrated by the lack of cohesion or order to the challenge -- which I put mostly on Candice because she pretty much appointed herself in charge, especially taking Amanda under her wing (oh please) -- and I'm not surprised Ashley combusted during that challenge.

It's interesting to me how people can watch the same thing and come away with such different impressions. I rewatched the paintball episode after coming here when it aired because I kept reading about all this crappy treatment of Ashley and I didn't see it. When I rewatched, I even rewound to several scenes to watch them a 3rd time. What I saw was a bunch of disorganized magpies flitting aimlessly all over the place and all talking over each other. So while that meant that they talked over Ashley too, she wasn't singled out. I saw scenes of the women in the suite sitting on beds chatting, and Ashley was right there with them and they were including her. I saw scenes of Candice and others trying to get her to speak up and give her ideas too and Ashley refusing to do so for fear of them not liking her ideas. I saw Ashley walk away from discussions, and point out what a mistake it was to smash the paintballs in the fabric, after the fact when it was too late.

 

In several viewings, I didn't see A SINGLE instance of Ashley being treated any shabbier than anyone else. I can believe that it may have felt that way to HER, especially if she got the feeling that they were actually communicating with each another through all that chatter, but they weren't. They were ignoring each other's words just as much as hers. They were ridiculously irritating to watch, but they weren't being "mean" to Ashley, IMO. Ashley just didn't understand the personality types to recognize that the dynamic between each of them was just as dysfunctional as the dynamic SHE had with them.

 

Funny that, since Ashley won one of her challenges on a team.

Except that Kelly was using that as a reason to send her home AFTER the challenge was over. Therefore what Ashley did in a previous challenge with a different partner was irrelevant to the dynamic of the paintball team Kelly was on.