Full Case Discussion: If It Doesn't Fit, You Must Acquit

[suomi]

suomi

 

It's under Miscellaneous TV-->Specials, Movies, TV-One Offs section.  Here is the link

 

Thank you!

[laurakaye]

I've seen many posts about never forgetting the look on OJ's and his attorney's faces when the verdict was read.  I don't recall that, but I'll never forget the sob that came out of Kim and Fred at that moment.  It was heartbreaking.

I only remember looking at Robert Kardashian as the verdict was read, and he looked completely gobsmacked.  Not as in, "Hey, we got away with it!"  More of, "Holy crap, we got away with it."  Pure disbelief.  This is why I am anxious to see Schwimmer's interpretation.

 

This actually makes me want to watch the verdict being read over and over again just so I can study everyone else's expressions.

[toodywoody]

So.... the police also framed OJ by taking some blood from Nicole and Ron and placed them at his house, etc.? Just saying.......

[poeticlicensed]

^^ yes, and in the Bronco and on the back gate at Bundy. 

[FuriousStyles]

I only remember looking at Robert Kardashian as the verdict was read, and he looked completely gobsmacked. Not as in, "Hey, we got away with it!" More of, "Holy crap, we got away with it." Pure disbelief. This is why I am anxious to see Schwimmer's interpretation.

This actually makes me want to watch the verdict being read over and over again just so I can study everyone else's expressions.

I watched the verdict on youtube a few days ago. It seems the only person who was "excited" about the verdict was Cochran. RK as you said was just in shock, and OJ himself looked relieved, but Cochran really had a jubilant expression on his face. He was so proud of himself.

Sure Cochran was already a successful well-known defense attorney prior to this case, but the OJ trial no doubt sent his own celebrity into the stratosphere.

[psychoticstate]

I really don't get this comment at all and here's why.  When I first saw that video of Rodney King being beaten, I thought it was somewhere in South Africa, no, we don't do that in the USA.  

 

I think about that jury in Simi Valley, how they looked at that tape and thought it was okay that the police should be allowed to beat the shit out of somebody when they were already on the ground.  Yeah, right.

 

Sure OJ was totally guilty, but I get why the jury acquitted him, it's not right that they did, but I get it.  When you believe that the police are racist and are out to get you, you tend to not believe what they say.  That and the prosecution had a lousy narrative that made no sense to me.  I remember their story was that OJ killed both of them almost at the same time, which to me was stupid.  I felt he killed Nicole first, Ron Goldman saw her lying dead, was probably stunned, and that's when OJ stabbed him.  

 

Interesting that people who seem to think race shouldn't matter are white.

 

But the thing that is true, that Marcia Clark knew and understood was how male privilege was important to this case because if Nicole Brown Simpson had been a black woman, the verdict would have been the same.  The difference is that the case probably wouldn't have gone as coo coo bananas as it did.  

 

I think more so than male privilege in this case was celebrity privilege.  If the defendant had not been a celebrity, he would have been convicted.  And if the races had been flipped (white defendant, black victims), the case still would have been insane because of the celebrity connection.

 

This case had nothing to do with race until the defense (and the media)  made it about race because they had nothing else.  Johnnie Cochran knew how to incite the jury and he did just that very well.  He also moved the focus of the case from two people who were brutally slaughtered to the LAPD supposedly framing Simpson because he was black. 

 

I think the prosecution made a tactical error when they stuck so firmly to their timeline on when the murders happened.  I think they were basically correct but they should have had some "give" in there.  Most people are hazy when recollecting the time they turned on the tv or turned it off, or heard a dog howling, etc.  I do think Ron and Nicole were killed in fairly quick succession but like you, not simultaneously.  

 

I don't agree with the statement that people who think race shouldn't matter are white.  OJ Simpson transcended racial boundaries when he was the big athlete/spokesperson/actor.  Nobody was saying that he was a great black football player; he was simply a great football player.  People admired him because of his talent not because of the color of his skin.  I think he's guilty because of the evidence and his actions; not the color of his skin.

 

I remember the Rodney King beating/decision/riots/Reginald Denny, et al as I was living in the area at the time.  It was horrifying and scary.  It wasn't right - - all the way around.  The LAPD used excessive force based on that video.  Burning down your city, rioting and looting businesses that had nothing to do with that made no sense and penalized innocent people.  Beating Reginald Denny because he was there and he was white, wrong on every level.   

 

Acquitting Simpson to right those wrongs, also terrible.  I don't think the King incident was 100% why Simpson was acquitted though.  It played into it but I also think he was acquitted because the jury did not want to believe the OJ they thought they knew could do that; the jury simply could not understand the DNA evidence that was presented to them; and the judge was a moron who never should have presided over the trial.

I watched the verdict on youtube a few days ago. It seems the only person who was "excited" about the verdict was Cochran. RK as you said was just in shock, and OJ himself looked relieved, but Cochran really had a jubilant expression on his face. He was so proud of himself.

Sure Cochran was already a successful well-known defense attorney prior to this case, but the OJ trial no doubt sent his own celebrity into the stratosphere.

 

Watch Robert Shapiro as well.  He also looked stunned.

 

Every one of those attorneys knew their client was guilty.  Hell, Howard Weitzman knew Simpson was guilty from the start, which is why he got Shapiro (king of the plea) on board. 

[ghoulina]

I'm posting mainly so I can see when the thread is posted in, I'm fascinated by this story. 

 

But I also wanted to ask something real quick, for those of you with more knowledge of the details. If this has been touched on before, I apologize. The blood that was found in the Bronco was Ron Goldman's, correct? Not OJ's? How did the defense explain, if at all, how the victim's blood got there if he wasn't even at the scene? It would be one thing if the blood belonged to OJ. It would surely be a big coincidence that he happened to cut himself the same night his ex wife was murdered, but it's plausible. But I really can't see any way in which an innocent man would have the murder victim's blood inside his car, unless he posits he went to the scene after (which I don't believe was ever claimed) OR that it was planted. 

[Nancybeth]

I watched the OJ Tapes yesterday and for the first time noticed Kardashian's stunned look when the verdict was announced.

 

My best friends and I were just talking about where we were during the OJ Trial...one of them fully admitted she had little to know memory of it (although she has a terrible memory of almost everything).  I told her the night of the Bronco chase we had gone to the cheap theaters to see "Four Weddings and a Funeral."  When I came home, my dad was flipping channels between the chase and a movie on TV.  I don't know why that's such a clear memory for me, but it is.  The trial lasted through my senior year of HS and the summer into my freshman year of college, and we convinced my Mass Communications professor to let us out of class a few minutes early so we could see the verdict being announced.  I watched it on the TV in our campus snack bar, and the room was a mix of cheers and disbelief.

[ghoulina]

I only remember looking at Robert Kardashian as the verdict was read, and he looked completely gobsmacked.  Not as in, "Hey, we got away with it!"  More of, "Holy crap, we got away with it."  Pure disbelief.  This is why I am anxious to see Schwimmer's interpretation.

 

We watched the verdict come in during school, but I don't remember anything about it clearly - other than the actual verdict. So I just watched it on Youtube, and yes - RK looks in a state of utter disbelief! His face....it's like he is literally trying to work out how this happened.The clip I watched was zoomed in on OJ's face, so I couldn't see anyone else but RK and Cochran. I'll try to find another clip that shows Shapiro.  

[psychoticstate]

I'm posting mainly so I can see when the thread is posted in, I'm fascinated by this story. 

 

But I also wanted to ask something real quick, for those of you with more knowledge of the details. If this has been touched on before, I apologize. The blood that was found in the Bronco was Ron Goldman's, correct? Not OJ's? How did the defense explain, if at all, how the victim's blood got there if he wasn't even at the scene? It would be one thing if the blood belonged to OJ. It would surely be a big coincidence that he happened to cut himself the same night his ex wife was murdered, but it's plausible. But I really can't see any way in which an innocent man would have the murder victim's blood inside his car, unless he posits he went to the scene after (which I don't believe was ever claimed) OR that it was planted. 

 

ghoulina, the blood found in the Bronco was a mixture of Ron's and Nicole's.  The defense claimed it was planted by the LAPD in an attempt to frame Simpson.

 

Beyond the fact that makes zero sense and was basically impossible given the blood was noticed and photographed fairly quickly and we would have to assume that Fuhrman, Vannatter and/or Lange took blood samples from Nicole and Ron at Bundy, ran over to Rockingham with it, managed to plant it INSIDE Simpson's vehicle without being spotted by anyone else doing so and without knowing whether or not Simpson was at a party with 500 people that night at the time of the murders.

 

What's really interesting to think about is that while Simpson's blood in the vehicle could possibly be explained away and even a small amount of Nicole's . . . Nicole's and Ron's TOGETHER can not.  That would indicate that Ron and Nicole both shed their blood at the same time.  Ron had no previous contact with Simpson.  So it would stand to reason that the bloodshed happened at the time of their deaths and Simpson was their killer.  There is no innocent explanation for Ron's blood to be in Simpson's vehicle AND mixed with Nicole's blood.  None.

Edited February 8, 2016 by psychoticstate

[Neurochick]

Another problem was that the police and everybody contaminated the crime scene; I think Dr. Michael Baden said that much.  

 

I agree the jury didn't get the DNA evidence, remember the OJ trial was years before CSI and Forensic Files. 

 

Also, the celebrity thing played a HUGE part, didn't Robert Blake get off as well?

 

I get upset when people say, "well the jury was..."  Here's my thing, I think the main issue with the case was that, many people believed the LAPD was racist, period end of story. If I think the police force is racist and is out to get black people, I'm not going to believe them, or their experts, no matter what they say.

 

I think the prosecution was out gunned because all you have to do is plant doubt in one juror's mind, that's it.  

[psychoticstate]

Yes, but the doubt is supposed to be reasonable.  The defense could have argued that aliens beamed down from outer space, killed Ron and Nicole, planted evidence to frame Simpson, and beamed back up to the mother ship.  Could it have happened?  Maybe.  Is it reasonable to think it did?  Absolutely not.

 

Sadly, there are racists everywhere.  There are also bad cops.  It doesn't mean all cops are bad and/or racist or that the LAPD as a whole is corrupt.  No crime scene is perfect.   But the LAPD and the crime scene techs had nothing to do with the cut on Simpson's finger, his inability to say what time he parked the Bronco on the street, his lie over the shoes, his lie over his abuse of Nicole, his so-called "suicide" note, which screamed guilt or his denying a fellow athlete's offer to pick up the costs for an investigation to find the "real" killer. 

 

Edited because "figure" and "finger" are not the same.  Doh.

Edited February 8, 2016 by psychoticstate

[laurakaye]

Not sure if this is the place to post this:

 

In the first episode, when OJ disappears out of the back door with AC, Robert Kardashian comes in to inform Shapiro that OJ is gone.  Now, Travolta portrayed Shapiro in such a way that made me think Shapiro had something to do with OJ taking off.  I can't imagine this was the case in real life, but the way Travolta called out "OJ!" and sort of ran/walked down the hall, looking in rooms, seemed suspicious to me.  I don't know if that's just Travolta chewing up the scene or if Shapiro might've planted the idea in OJ's head to bail?

Edited February 8, 2016 by laurakaye

[GHScorpiosRule]

I get upset when people say, "well the jury was..."  Here's my thing, I think the main issue with the case was that, many people believed the LAPD was racist, period end of story. If I think the police force is racist and is out to get black people, I'm not going to believe them, or their experts, no matter what they say.

 

Then those people who felt that way had no business being the jury; because they already had that bias, and I'm sure during voire dire, that the question was asked if they could put aside their bias and look at the evidence, etc.  And they should have recused themselves.  Because they did the opposite of what was asked of them.

 

And I am not only a POC, but a WOC and have also been a victim of racism by both whites and blacks from the time I was a kid to my high school years.

[psychoticstate]

laurakaye,  I don't think Shapiro had anything to do with that.  His reputation was at stake.  He guaranteed to the LAPD that Simpson would voluntarily turn himself in.  If he had anything to do with Simpson running, it would make sense that Simpson would have bolted much earlier than he did.  I think Shapiro was attempting to get all the ducks in a row, prepare for an insanity defense and give Simpson time to say goodbye to his family before surrendering. 

 

Then those people who felt that way had no business being the jury; because they already had that bias, and I'm sure during voire dire, that the question was asked if they could put aside their bias and look at the evidence, etc.  And they should have recused themselves.  Because they did the opposite of what was asked of them.

 

And I am not only a POC, but a WOC and have also been a victim of racism by both whites and blacks from the time I was a kid to my high school years.

 

Not only that but the suggestion is that the LAPD is out to get black men, all the while excusing Simpson's abuse of Nicole for years.  If they were out to get him, as has been suggested, they could have gone after him with the domestic things.  They did not.  They excused his behavior and hung out at Rockingham with him.  Were they setting up a future frame job?  Come on. 

 

The truly sad part is that Nicole knew and she knew he would get away with killing her one day.  She said it herself and she was right.

[laurakaye]

laurakaye,  I don't think Shapiro had anything to do with that.  His reputation was at stake.  He guaranteed to the LAPD that Simpson would voluntarily turn himself in.  If he had anything to do with Simpson running, it would make sense that Simpson would have bolted much earlier than he did.  I think Shapiro was attempting to get all the ducks in a row, prepare for an insanity defense and give Simpson time to say goodbye to his family before surrendering. 

Thank you, I didn't think so.  I have to say, when Travolta is onscreen I can't take my eyes off of him.  I don't recall Shapiro having those particular mannerisms, but I'm enjoying the heck of of Travolta's performance.  When Travolta is on the phone and his wife walks in and he says something like "That was a whole heap of bad news," I'll admit, I laughed.  And then felt bad about it.

[rho]

I caught the Secret Tapes documentary on demand and they showed some of the tapes from the civil trial. Umbelina pointed out earlier how devastated AC comes across in his deposition but there's so much of his reaction that wasn't included in the transcripts. I could see the guilt on his face. OJ was his best friend of like 30 years and it's so obvious AC's convinced he's guilty. 

 

I'm only about halfway through but it is definitely worth a watch if you're interested in the case, but too lazy to go through the transcripts

[GHScorpiosRule]

If you watched the A&E special of the OJ tapes, when the verdict is read, both Kardashian and Shapiro are not smiling; both of them are shocked at the verdict. Only Cochran and Simpson are smiling. I don't think they showed Bailey's face.

 

And in Simpson's deposition, when Petrocelli (The Goldmans' attorney) asks him how Nicole and Ron's blood got in his car, his home, Simpson can't answer. Well, he repeats himself with "I don't know." Just like when questioned about how Paula left him a break up message, and he did retrieve the messages, but that he didn't get Paula's message. Uh-huh. Yeah, sure, right.  And like I mentioned upthread, you can see his eyes rolling as he's trying to figure out how to answer the questions.

Edited February 8, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[Umbelina]

The defense position on the blood in the car is that it was planted LATER, they had witnesses who said they say no blood in the car (or on the socks) at the time.  sigh.

 

Thanks for the The OJ Tapes recommendation, I'm going to watch them on line.  They are here:  http://www.aetv.com/shows/oj-speaks-the-hidden-tapes/season-1/episode-1 (You have to log in with your TV provider account information.)  I'll go check out that thread too, thanks also for the link to that. 

 

It's funny, I've completely avoided all OJ stuff for the last 18 years.  The whole thing was so completely sickening to me, from the murders, to the trial, and then to the ridiculous and heartbreaking verdict, to the acute awareness of race divides in our county, still.  I wasn't going to watch this show.  At some point I decided enough time had passed and I'd give the first episode a try.  I'm obviously in now, and have been reading quite a bit on line now.  This case really has everything, fame, injustice, relationships, race, incompetence, friendships, sex, lies, and unfortunately, no video tape.

 

Although I agree with Marcia.  OJ would have been acquitted in that court, with that judge, and that jury, even if the entire murder was caught on videotape.

[toodywoody]

psychoticstate, thank you. I don't understand why anyone could not think this about Ron's blood being anywhere and on anything to do with OJ. The only link between them was Nicole. Thank you for your post because it has always been for me screaming for people to wake up and realize this. There was no reasonable explanation for his blood being there. Then for people to say OJ'S blood was planted, well that would mean Ron's and Nicole's was also and that someone would have to take three vials and not get them mixed up and plant them just right and without getting caught.

[Mittengirl]

I know that OJ and Robert K. were friends on a social level and Weitzman was his attorney prior to the murders but did any of the other lawyers (Shapiro, Cochrane, et al) know OJ personally before the crimes?

What was Kardashian doing for a living since letting his law license lapse? Any idea why he let it lapse? (My aunt kept her nursing license valid even well after quitting work because "You never know...") What is required to keep a law license active? Annual fee? A certain amount of billable hours per year?

Was Weitzman a criminal lawyer or more of a legal advisor to OJ for mundane, rich people/celebrity legal issues (financial, real estate, family, contract, issues)?

Edited February 8, 2016 by Mittengirl

[psychoticstate]

To buy the defense's argument, you'd have to believe that Lange and Vannatter (senior detectives) conspired with Fuhrman, a more junior detective they had never worked with before, to frame a man whose whereabouts they were unsure of and who had been coddled by the LAPD previously.  You'd also have to believe that a larger segment of the LAPD was in on the conspiracy, as well as the crime scene techs and crime lab.  And that none of these people confessed to anyone of such a conspiracy in the 20+ years since.

 

Sure, it could have happened but when you break it down, the likelihood is fairly small.  Not impossible but small. 

 

I'm not saying the LAPD haven't framed people in the past or the crime lab hasn't screwed up.  Mistakes were made in this investigation.  But I don't think Simpson was framed and I don't think there was any conspiracy.

 

If Simpson was innocent, why would he commit suicide?  Even if you think he was so devastated over the loss of this woman he used to beat for jollies, wouldn't he think he needed to stay strong for his children?  And wouldn't he think that his mission in life would be to find the person or persons who did this to her to put their head(s) on a stick?  Simpson wasn't suicidal UNTIL he was told the police were going to charge him with murder so it seems he wasn't ready to end it all because Nicole was gone. 

 

Just food for thought.

[psychoticstate]

If you watched the A&E special of the OJ tapes, when the verdict is read, both Kardashian and Shapiro are not smiling; both of them are shocked at the verdict. Only Cochran and Simpson are smiling. I don't think they showed Bailey's face.

 

And in Simpson's deposition, when Petrocelli (The Goldmans' attorney) asks him how Nicole and Ron's blood got in his car, his home, Simpson can't answer. Well, he repeats himself with "I don't know." Just like when questioned about how Paula left him a break up message, and he did retrieve the messages, but that he didn't get Paula's message. Uh-huh. Yeah, sure, right.  And like I mentioned upthread, you can see his eyes rolling as he's trying to figure out how to answer the questions.

 

Daniel Petrocelli had Simpson's number and put his ass in a sling.  It was glorious.  It's too bad he couldn't have cross examined him on the stand during the criminal trial.  He would have torn Simpson up.

 

One thing I really admired Petrocelli for was hitting home to the civil jury that Ron should have been a hero to Simpson - - this young man attempted to save the mother of Simpson's children and was thanked by losing his life.  And yet Simpson and his attorney smeared Ron's reputation and name day after day in the courtroom, by claiming that he never would have amounted to anything in life.  It's reprehensible.

I know that OJ and Robert K. were friends on a social level and Weitzman was his attorney prior to the murders but did any of the other lawyers (Shapiro, Cochrane, et al) know OJ personally before the crimes?

What was Kardashian doing for a living since letting his law license lapse? Any idea why he let it lapse? (My aunt kept her nursing license valid even well after quitting work because "You never know...") What is required to keep a law license active? Annual fee? A certain amount of billable hours per year?

Was Weitzman a criminal lawyer or more of a legal advisor to OJ for mundane, rich people/celebrity legal issues (financial, real estate, family, contract, issues)?

 

Weitzman was a business attorney from what I recall.  So likely handled Simpson's contracts and business deals.  Not a criminal defense attorney by any stretch.

[BBDi]

Weitzman was kind of an attorney to the stars and handled various high profile divorces and such. Even if OJ had never used him before, I think calling him would have been a logical first step so it was not surprising. Maybe OJ resisted the idea of calling a criminal attorney too, since of course he was 100% innocent.

[zoeysmom]

Weitzman's claim to fame was the acquittal of John DeLorean who was for cocaine distribution.   Weitzman successfully headed a defense that DeLorean was the target of police entrapment.  Years later a federal judge was recorded on tape as referring to Weitzman as either a dumbass or dumbshit, I can't remember which, essentially Weitzman great case was DeLorean and he lucked into the defense as he had no prior criminal history and the bad guy working off a drug beef contacted him with the   plot to distribute cocaine and save his fledgling car company.

 

ETA-Cochran and OJ knew each other and were friends.

 

 

 

I know that OJ and Robert K. were friends on a social level and Weitzman was his attorney prior to the murders but did any of the other lawyers (Shapiro, Cochrane, et al) know OJ personally before the crimes?

What was Kardashian doing for a living since letting his law license lapse? Any idea why he let it lapse? (My aunt kept her nursing license valid even well after quitting work because "You never know...") What is required to keep a law license active? Annual fee? A certain amount of billable hours per year?

Was Weitzman a criminal lawyer or more of a legal advisor to OJ for mundane, rich people/celebrity legal issues (financial, real estate, family, contract, issues)?

Kardashian was working as a music promoter and I believe he went back to that line of work after the trial.  By the time of OJ's case attorneys were required to complete continuing education credits to maintain the license.  Attorneys who didn't practice opted out.  Add bar dues and mandatory malpractice insurance and many attorneys who did not practice just became inactive and paid a much smaller fee. 

 

 

 

I'm posting mainly so I can see when the thread is posted in, I'm fascinated by this story. 

 

But I also wanted to ask something real quick, for those of you with more knowledge of the details. If this has been touched on before, I apologize. The blood that was found in the Bronco was Ron Goldman's, correct? Not OJ's? How did the defense explain, if at all, how the victim's blood got there if he wasn't even at the scene? It would be one thing if the blood belonged to OJ. It would surely be a big coincidence that he happened to cut himself the same night his ex wife was murdered, but it's plausible. But I really can't see any way in which an innocent man would have the murder victim's blood inside his car, unless he posits he went to the scene after (which I don't believe was ever claimed) OR that it was planted. 

One of the jurors said they as jury felt if OJ did it with the amount of blood there would have been more blood. 

 

If the jury as a whole, which obviously they did, felt there were problems with the chain of evidence, the collection, the collectors, the discovers, the lab personnel, the experts they are instructed they may consider some all or none of the testimony.  The jurors disregarded Fuhrman as both the prosecution and defense made similar comments regarding his truthfulness.  They were permitted.

 

The jury is instructed at the beginning of the trial the defendant is presumed innocent and it is the prosecution's job  to prove each element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.  The prosecution does not have to prove motive but human curiosity being what it is they do like to present a theory of the case.  It is a tough burden and when you have a cop who is questionable it gets tougher.  Many thought Fuhrman should have never taken the stand.  Just as many thought Faye Resnick should have been put on to describe different threats OJ had made and statements made by Nicole to Faye. 

 

I am not agreeing with the jury reasoning but this what I read-and posted a link upthread one of the attorneys for one of the jurors stated regarding the jury group think.  I think the biggest problem was the prosecution took too long to put their case on and they needed more time to prepare.

Edited February 8, 2016 by zoeysmom

[Callaphera]

psychoticstate, thank you. I don't understand why anyone could not think this about Ron's blood being anywhere and on anything to do with OJ. The only link between them was Nicole. Thank you for your post because it has always been for me screaming for people to wake up and realize this. There was no reasonable explanation for his blood being there. Then for people to say OJ'S blood was planted, well that would mean Ron's and Nicole's was also and that someone would have to take three vials and not get them mixed up and plant them just right and without getting caught.

 

I'm reading the book this series is based on and (someone correct me if I'm wrong), the defense was floating the idea, whether in court or to the media, that Fuhrman had snatched the one bloody glove from Nicole's house and hid it in his sock since he wasn't wearing a jacket, carried it with him to O.J.'s and swiped that around in the Bronco to plant the blood before he would have dropped the glove outside of Kato's guesthouse room. That glove had more of a starring role in the trial than I had thought. I believe there was a similar theory about the bloody sock in O.J.'s bedroom. I should really stop reading at 2 a.m. so I can keep this all straight.

 

Of course, when the criminal trial happened, I was in the seventh grade and even though it was interesting to me for some reason, a lot of it was over my head and I didn't really get the full story. This whole story is fascinating to me now.

[psychoticstate]

I'm reading the book this series is based on and (someone correct me if I'm wrong), the defense was floating the idea, whether in court or to the media, that Fuhrman had snatched the one bloody glove from Nicole's house and hid it in his sock since he wasn't wearing a jacket, carried it with him to O.J.'s and swiped that around in the Bronco to plant the blood before he would have dropped the glove outside of Kato's guesthouse room. That glove had more of a starring role in the trial than I had thought. I believe there was a similar theory about the bloody sock in O.J.'s bedroom. I should really stop reading at 2 a.m. so I can keep this all straight.

 

Of course, when the criminal trial happened, I was in the seventh grade and even though it was interesting to me for some reason, a lot of it was over my head and I didn't really get the full story. This whole story is fascinating to me now.

 

If Fuhrman swiped this glove, hid it in his sock and managed to do all this and plant the blood in Simpson's Bronco and discard the glove- - again without being seen by the other detectives at Rockingham - - it would stand to reason to me that unidentified DNA (sweat; hairs) should have been found on the glove and they should have belonged to Fuhrman.  It was a hot June night in LA.  Fuhrman would have been sweating with a bloody glove inside his sock.  So why was no mention of hair/sweat/blood not matching the defendant being found on the glove?  Or even inside the Bronco? 

 

Again, we'd have to buy into the theory that not only the LAPD was framing Simpson but so was the lab.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Stupid question, but was Simpson's Bronco unlocked? Not that I believe any of the theories that Fuhrman planted the blood and glove. There just wasn't time to do it that night. Plus what psychoticstate stated (pardon the pun!) above.

[iwasish]

If Fuhrman swiped this glove, hid it in his sock and managed to do all this and plant the blood in Simpson's Bronco and discard the glove- - again without being seen by the other detectives at Rockingham - - it would stand to reason to me that unidentified DNA (sweat; hairs) should have been found on the glove and they should have belonged to Fuhrman.  It was a hot June night in LA.  Fuhrman would have been sweating with a bloody glove inside his sock.  So why was no mention of hair/sweat/blood not matching the defendant being found on the glove?  Or even inside the Bronco? 

 

Again, we'd have to buy into the theory that not only the LAPD was framing Simpson but so was the lab.

And they all worked in concert... AFTER the fact. Hard to believe so many would willingly go along with a massive conspiracy, risking their own careers and possibly their pensions (Lange and Vannatter were near retirement) to frame an innocent man and allow a double murderer to be free. They had no idea in those first minutes of the case what evidence would turn up. OJ could have already offed himself and left a suicide note, there could have been security cameras at Nicole's home. Maybe one of the kids would have some information. Makes no sense. Careless, sloppy? Yeah for sure. A conspiracy? Not a chance.

[Umbelina]

I am pretty sure it was locked.  The depositions are all running together in my head somewhat, but I believe there were several mentions of the police looking for the keys.  I believe one was in Kato's civil trial deposition, and I THINK (can't be sure) that they couldn't find them, they weren't in the normal place, a cup in the kitchen or something.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Umbelina

[Kel Varnsen]

Again, we'd have to buy into the theory that not only the LAPD was framing Simpson but so was the lab.

If someone (not me) were to buy into the conspiracy angle there wouldn't need to be Ron Goldman's blood or any blood for that matter in the Bronco. They could take a picture of some ketchup in there and fake a lab report.  And if someone were to buy into that theory it wouldn't even need to have a racist angle to it. They could think that the LAPD was just trying to frame him because it was a high profile case and they needed to make sure it was closed.

 

I think more so than male privilege in this case was celebrity privilege.  If the defendant had not been a celebrity, he would have been convicted.  And if the races had been flipped (white defendant, black victims), the case still would have been insane because of the celebrity connection.

Like with a lot of subjects, Chris Rock said it best on this one:

"That shit wasn't about race … that shit was about fame. If O.J. wasn't famous, he'd be in jail right now. If O.J. drove a bus, he wouldn't even be O.J. He'd be Orenthal the Bus Driving Murderer."

 

Edited February 9, 2016 by Kel Varnsen

[Neurochick]

It was mostly celebrity, I mean didn't Robert Blake get away with murder?  What about Phil Spector?

 

Then those people who felt that way had no business being the jury; because they already had that bias, and I'm sure during voire dire, that the question was asked if they could put aside their bias and look at the evidence, etc.  And they should have recused themselves.  Because they did the opposite of what was asked of them.

 

 

Ideally that is what is supposed to happen; but it doesn't, just like it didn't in Simi Valley when those police officers went on trial for beating Rodney King.  Those jurors thought it was a-okay to beat up a black man.

[Dejana]

What was Kardashian doing for a living since letting his law license lapse? Any idea why he let it lapse? (My aunt kept her nursing license valid even well after quitting work because "You never know...") What is required to keep a law license active? Annual fee? A certain amount of billable hours per year?

 

 

Kardashian was working as a music promoter and I believe he went back to that line of work after the trial.  By the time of OJ's case attorneys were required to complete continuing education credits to maintain the license.  Attorneys who didn't practice opted out.  Add bar dues and mandatory malpractice insurance and many attorneys who did not practice just became inactive and paid a much smaller fee. 

 

Here's an LA Times article from July 1994 about the OJ-Robert friendship. It (misspells Kris' name) and briefly mentions his career at the time: remember Movie Tunes? The music that used to play in movie theaters before the movie, before theaters came up with those 20-minute clip packages of upcoming TV/movies to play instead. Anyway, he was running Movie Tunes (I've heard Kim talk about how she was put to work mailing CDs to the different movie theaters, as a teenager). He was also involved in the founding of the old music industry magazine Radio & Records and made about $3 million when it was sold back in the late 1970s.

[GHScorpiosRule]

It was mostly celebrity, I mean didn't Robert Blake get away with murder?  What about Phil Spector?

 

 

Ideally that is what is supposed to happen; but it doesn't, just like it didn't in Simi Valley when those police officers went on trial for beating Rodney King.  Those jurors thought it was a-okay to beat up a black man.

 

 

I agree absolutely about the jury that acquitted those cops. But since we're talking about the OJ case, that's what I responded to.

[Mittengirl]

The LA Times article about the Kardashian - Simpson friendship is interesting. Robert hadn't practiced law in a long time prior to the murder case. For some reason I assumed he had just let his license lapse briefly. It would seem, then, that Robert K. wasnt really functioning as a lawyer, but more as a personal intermediary between the Dream Team and OJ. That is a hell of a position to find yourself in. I wonder if he ever regretted it; if he wished he would not have known all of the inside details?

[GHScorpiosRule]

The LA Times article about the Kardashian - Simpson friendship is interesting. Robert hadn't practiced law in a long time prior to the murder case. For some reason I assumed he had just let his license lapse briefly. It would seem, then, that Robert K. wasnt really functioning as a lawyer, but more as a personal intermediary between the Dream Team and OJ. That is a hell of a position to find yourself in. I wonder if he ever regretted it; if he wished he would not have known all of the inside details?

 

I don't know the details, but based on the episode, Kardashian had to reactivate his license so that any and all communications with Simpson would fall under attorney/client privilege. That way, Kardashian wouldn't be forced to testify against Simpson about conversations they had.

[Mittengirl]

Ah, that makes sense. Would that apply to conversations prior to the crime, as well?

[rho]

That's my guess too. RK reactivated his license so he couldn't be put on the stand. Anything OJ told him would be kept in confidence. I'm remembering that rumor that Robert disposed of a bag which allegedly contained OJ's bloody clothes. I think that played into his legal role as well. His position on the legal team was a power move more than anything, I don't believe he was as involved in the litigation. I'm 99% sure he still worked full time at his previous job during the trials, which doesn't leave much time to be working on the biggest murder trial in history.

 

Ah, that makes sense. Would that apply to conversations prior to the crime, as well?

 

Even if Robert stopped practicing law, he only needed to pay a nominal annual fee ($20-30?) to be recognized by the CA bar, albeit inactive. Basically, by passing the bar, he was always an attorney in the state of California. By my logic, anything said to him is protected by attorney/client privilege, but I could be wrong. I still think his importance on the legal team, was that they could never put him on the stand. 

 

I also wonder if he ever regretted his involvement. Based on what he has said in interviews after the trial, I think he definitely began to doubt OJ's innocence. Honestly, of all the people who wrote their memoirs of the OJ trial, I think RK's would be the most interesting. Shame we never heard his side of the story.

[Neurochick]

Wasn't there something about Simpson confessing to Rosey Grier but he said he wouldn't testify against him because he was acting as his spiritual adviser?  Is that true?

 

When the murder happened, my mother had gone away for the summer, she heard it on the news before I did, so she called me and her first words were:  "Did you hear that OJ Simpson killed his wife and another man?"  And I said, "Yeah, OJ probably killed them in a jealous rage or something."   I don't think Ron Goldman was killed at the same time Nicole was (exactly the same time), but I think OJ killed him because he just happened to come on to see Nicole's body.  Either OJ killed Goldman because he was in a jealous rage, or he just didn't want any witnesses.  

Edited February 9, 2016 by Neurochick

[psychoticstate]

Wasn't there something about Simpson confessing to Rosey Grier but he said he wouldn't testify against him because he was acting as his spiritual adviser?  Is that true?

 

 

I heard a guard overheard Simpson saying something along the lines of "she made me do it!"  Rosey Grier is a Christian minister so he argued the point that anything he and Simpson discussed was privileged.  

 

In checking Jeffrey Toobin's "The Run of His Life," the blood inside the Bronco and on the Rockingham driveway was noted once the sun came up and it was light by Vannatter.  At the time the discovery was made, Fuhrman was at Bundy.  That makes the theory that Fuhrman planted the blood even more remote.  

 

It was also the left hand glove that was found by Ron Goldman's body, which would explain how Simpson cut his left hand.  If that particular glove were pulled off during the struggle, leaving his left hand exposed, it would make sense that the frantic stabbing done to Ron could and would result in Ron's killer cutting himself during the attack.

 

The book also noted that the single glove was referenced by the first responding officer, far ahead of Furhman, and no other glove was noted.  Again, making it very unlikely that Fuhrman, responding to the scene after the initial police officers, managed to lift the right hand glove and smuggle it over to Rockingham. 

 

The book also said that upon Vannatter's discovery of the blood in the driveway, leading from the Bronco to the front door, and seeing the blood inside the Bronco (on the console and swiped on the interior of the driver's door), they contacted the DA for a search warrant before proceeding and contacted the crime lab.  Initially they arrived at the property to make the death notification to Simpson (again, IMO, giving him special treatment as he was not Nicole's next of kin) but got no response from ringing at the gate or calling the house phone, despite being told that the family was home and lights were on inside the house.  They noted the Bronco parked on the street at an odd angle - - and the ONLY vehicle parked on the street as residents did not park on the street, as the street was a common thoroughfare to Sunset - - and saw what they took to possibly be blood on the exterior of the driver side door and made the decision to hop the fence as they worried there may be more victims.

 

 

[Lorna Mae]

Neurochick, what I remember is that the Reverend Rosey Grier visited O.J. in jail, and because he was clergy, they were given complete privacy. During that convo, O.J. raised his voice and said...something. Something that probably, but not provably, included the word "wife". "Killed my wife"? "Didn't kill my wife"? We'll never know. There was a lot of speculation about what people nearby heard, or thought they heard, but as I said, anything said to clergy by a prisoner is inadmissible. Why Grier wasn't called to the stand? Don't know, but probably because he was not a witness except for this.

ETA: But I don't Grier had to make a point of it; that's just the way it is. Anything said by a prisoner to a minister, rabbi, priest, shaman, whathaveyou, is privileged. (Maybe it was "She made me do it!" But I remember thinking at the time that bystanders could convince themselves they'd heard just about anything.)

Edited February 9, 2016 by Lorna Mae

[toodywoody]

Here is a question. Was luminal(sp) sprayed in Simpsons house? Or was that before they used it?

[elzin]

The Hidden Tapes special talked about here is available on the Comcast OnDemand app. Not sure about the box version of OnDemand.

[Nancybeth]

My recording of The Hidden Tapes cut off at the very end, while Kris Jenner was talking about the relationship between OJ and Robert K., post-verdict.  I think he testified in the civil trial.  But it sounded like maybe Kris was saying that OJ didn't see Robert before he died, or something?  Does anyone know what happened to their friendship?

 

Like someone else up-thread, I mostly ignored this case at the time it was going on, and in the years since.  It was just so pervasive during the time of the murders and the trial, and you couldn't get away from it.  I was so damn sick of hearing about OJ.  But now, watching American Crime Story and going back to research what actually happened, it's like this fuzzy memory and I'm sort of newly curious about the whole thing.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Nancybeth

[suomi]

Kardashian's main roles were barometer, psych tech and tranquilizer. They had been friends for so long that he knew OJ's moods and wants and needs like no one else; he reflected (OJ's version of) reality back at him. OJ ran off at the mouth so much that no one could stand being around him for very long. Bob was recruited to listen and listen and listen some more. OJ couldn't stand being alone, and not controlling everything and everyone. Being locked up made him even nuttier than usual. Bob was recruited to reminisce about good times and look ahead to more good times.

 

If you catch the right version you will see that Kardashian wiped away tears when the verdict was read. First under his glasses and then he gave into it and removed his glasses. But, yeah, tears. For Nicole, I think. He went to the victory party but they weren't on good terms for very long. When he was actively dying he refused OJ's phone calls. That says a lot right there.

 

From Fuhrman's book:

The first officers at Rockingham at 5AM were partners Vannatter and Lange, and Fuhrman and his boss Ron Phillips. They stood at the gate repeatedly ringing the bell and not getting an answer. Fuhrman figured three officers could handle ringing the bell so he ran the plates on the 300ZX parked there (Kato's) and then turned his attention to the Bronco. The hood was cold to the touch and there was a 12-inch broken piece of white-painted wood on the ground at the front of the car, not matching anything visible in the immediate area. Using his flashlight, Furhman saw a spot that looked like blood above the handle on the driver's door and brush lines of the same color on the driver's doorsill. He looked thru the windows and saw a package on the seat addressed to OJ Simpson. He told the others that he thought it was blood and Phillips said "If Mark thinks it's blood, it's blood." Vannatter told him to run the plates on the Bronco; it was registered to Hertz.

 

With this new slant on the situation, Fuhrman (most junior officer and youngest one present) hopped the fence and opened the gate. After they woke up Kato, he gave permission for Fuhrman to look around inside his bungalow. One of the questions Fuhrman asked was "Anything unusual happen last night?" That's when and why Kato mentioned the thumps on his wall at 10:45, and that's when and why Fuhrman walked behind the bungalow and saw the glove. He called the others back for a look; Phillips and Vannatter were interested, Lange not so much.

 

Vannatter sent Fuhrman and Phillips back to Bundy to take another look at the glove there and see if it appeared to match the one at Rockingham. (color, left/right, lining). They got to Bundy around 7AM and eyeballed the glove and decided it looked like a match. It was photographed where it was found. The photog and Fuhrman and his partner Brad Roberts drove to Rockingham, and the second glove was photographed where it was found. Vannatter walked over while Fuhrman was briefing  Roberts on the Rockingham scene, mentioning how hard it had been earlier to see inside the Bronco. Roberts looked thru the passenger side window and said "There's blood all over the inside." Fuhrman went to that window and saw smears on the console, steering wheel, seats, door panels. Roberts then saw blood drops on the street leading to the Rockingham gate. They followed those drops to more drops across the driveway inside the gate, to a drop just outside the front door, to more drops just inside the front door. They called Vannatter over and he said "This is a crime scene. Get everybody out of the house." So Arnelle, Kato, etc got the boot ...

[Neurochick]

Sorry, but I just blank out every time I see or hear Fuhrman's name.  Anybody who said the "N" word as many times as he did, doesn't deserve to be heard at all IMO.  

[Jade Foxx]

 

Sorry, but I just blank out every time I see or hear Fuhrman's name.  Anybody who said the "N" word as many times as he did, doesn't deserve to be heard at all IMO.

 

I kind of agree.

 

Although I don't think he planted any evidence, and might have been billed as a solid detective - he still embodied the casually racist mentality of the LAPD during that time, and had no idea how the "N" word debacle would shape people's thoughts regarding his humanity and character. 

[hoosiermom]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x1dlvfl4X4g. If I copied and pasted correctly, this is the documentary "juror #5" about the civil trial. Edited February 9, 2016 by hoosiermom

[Kromm]

I only remember looking at Robert Kardashian as the verdict was read, and he looked completely gobsmacked.  Not as in, "Hey, we got away with it!"  More of, "Holy crap, we got away with it."  Pure disbelief.  This is why I am anxious to see Schwimmer's interpretation.

 

This actually makes me want to watch the verdict being read over and over again just so I can study everyone else's expressions.

Schwimmer is clearly playing Kardashian as a good guy though, whereas the truth is possibly that the guy may have been a co-conspirator after the fact (hiding the murder weapon according to Fred Goldman in a suitcase he allegedly took out of Nicole's house). We're talking about this in other topics, but it's basically supposedly the reason Shapiro added Kardashian to the legal team. Not for his non-existent criminal law skills, but so that Kardashian could assert attorney privilege and nobody would try and call him to testify.

At the very least Kardashian was a real stooge. Schwimmer is playing him too warm, I think.

[BBDi]

Schwimmer is clearly playing Kardashian as a good guy though, whereas the truth is possibly that the guy may have been a co-conspirator after the fact (hiding the murder weapon according to Fred Goldman in a suitcase he allegedly took out of Nicole's house). We're talking about this in other topics, but it's basically supposedly the reason Shapiro added Kardashian to the legal team. Not for his non-existent criminal law skills, but so that Kardashian could assert attorney privilege and nobody would try and call him to testify.

At the very least Kardashian was a real stooge. Schwimmer is playing him too warm, I think.

Yeah, I am worried they're going to try to make him seem like the conscience of the case, when he doesn't seem to have been particularly heroic. But I guess we're only 1 episode in so who knows.