Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

[Raven1707]

I am not watching TWD for romance.

 

Me either.

[shanndee]

I'm not watching for romance either. HOWEVER, I find it very hard to believe that people existing together in such dire circumstances are not making deep, meaningful connections with each other. It doesn't have to be romance, it can be as easy as comfort and companionship in the face of the horror.

 

I find it very irksome that this show only presents the young and cute as worthy of such things. Clearly a strong, independent (or, heaven forbid, OLDER) woman is seen to be undeserving of such a basic consideration. Obviously such a woman is "above" all of that. (rolls eyes)

 

/end rant

Edited November 14, 2015 by shanndee

[chlban]

I think they are making deep, meaningful connections. They have formed a family. I have no doubt Carol and Darryl love each other. I have 2 close male friends like that. We grew up together and are now members of ARRP. Maybe the ZA sort of speeds up those types of connections. Thing is I always knew that allowing these friendships to slip into romance was risky and could destroy something valuable. And I didn't live with them as these people often live together. What happens if Richonne happens and then they split? Who gets custody of Eugene and Abraham? Do the others take sides? Is Carl's heart broken when he looses another mommy? Messy business all around IMO. Better Rick hooks up with what's her name, has a little fun and then, hopefully, she becomes zombie chow.

Edited November 15, 2015 by chlban

[AngelaHunter]

I find it very irksome that this show only presents the young and cute as worthy of such things. Clearly a strong, independent (or, heaven forbid, OLDER) woman is seen to be undeserving of such a basic consideration. Obviously such a woman is "above" all of that. (rolls eyes)

 

I agree. There doesn't need to be a hearts-and-flowers romance but the basic human need of comfort and the touch of a warm body, just an "I'm still alive" kind of thing would happen. I know I would seek it, even if I'm not so young and hot.

[HalcyonDays]

Okay, for the record, I changed the thread title to something I thought more appropriate than original. Why? Because I couldn't bloody well sleep, because my stupid mind wouldn't shut off, then for some reason I was thinking of that book Love in the Time of Cholera, and thought, "Hey, this would make a great title!!" Not like I've actually read that novel yet. So whatever. But note not an official mod post, but I think it better matches as a thread title. Anyone who wants to come up with something more appropriate, bring it!

 

In the meantime, apparently lack of sleep = creativity. Go figure.

[CletusMusashi]

What is this "sleep" thing you speak of?

[Timetoread]

Okay, for the record, I changed the thread title to something I thought more appropriate than original. Why? Because I couldn't bloody well sleep, because my stupid mind wouldn't shut off, then for some reason I was thinking of that book Love in the Time of Cholera, and thought, "Hey, this would make a great title!!" Not like I've actually read that novel yet. So whatever. But note not an official mod post, but I think it better matches as a thread title. Anyone who wants to come up with something more appropriate, bring it!

 

In the meantime, apparently lack of sleep = creativitiy. Go figure.

Well if you're having trouble sleeping, I suggest you actually read Love in the Time of Cholera. You'll be bright eyed and bushy tailed in no time flat.

[peach]

So, Rick not only has way too slow a learning curve to make him worthy of Michonne, but even after she saved Andrea from zombies, saved Judith from starvation, told him where Glenn and Maggie were imprisoned, and protected Coral while Rick talked to CrazyMorgan all day, she was still relatively expendable.

No way in hell, after that shit, is Rick allowed to get with Michonne.

 

And this is a TV series, so they have time to draw out a much longer arc between them, and get him to that point.  Right now, I feel like they are the kind of partners like he was with Shane.  Rick was a cop, so having that kind of ride or die partner is natural for him.  Deanna even made her that partner as constable.  Sometimes you need your partner to knock your ass out when you're ranting bloody-faced in the street.

 

Now that I think about it, her relationship with Carl sort of mirrors Shane, as well.  I've always believed Rick has felt Shane's loss deeper than Lori's, and not just because he's the one who killed him.  Makes me think of that country song, "my wife ran off with my best friend, and boy, do I sure miss him." 

 

Cosign with everyone else who says if a woman has sex on this show, she's instantly branded a whore, or a woman who "has to have a man."  Like this is a real family show, lol.  I admit I'm thankful that this show doesn't have a lot of graphic, uh, romance, with the rate cable shows are going.  But the actual activity ought to happen more than twice in six years. 

[peach]

Michonne has relationships in the comics, from what I understand, but I guess they have to avoid whore branding, or more likely, they have 5,000 useless characters to focus on and they don't even have time to bother.  Michonne doesn't get enough time, period, whatever she's doing.  Still mad about last week, where Deanna just overhears a few of her words, in the most important convo EVER, and then she opens the gate.  That's it.  Although, she's still the most important because if SHE hadn't been near the gate, Rick would have been eaten.

 

Carol

died early on in the comics

, so there's no blueprint for her, but again, she has to hold her place amongst the same 5000 characters, and is busy doing other things like being a cookie baking assassin.  I agree she did have cute chemistry with the short-lived Axle, but I'd like to think she can do a little better than a guy in the clink for larceny and love of pharmaceuticals, even if it IS the end of the world.

They killed sex-having Andrea to appease internet fans, even though she's

one of the longest running characters in the comics.

  So sex is pretty dangerous on TWD.

Edited November 15, 2015 by HalcyonDays
Tagged comic spoilers.

[Jack Kerouac]

They killed sex-having Andrea to appease internet fans,

even though she's one of the longest running characters in the comics

.  So sex is pretty dangerous on TWD.

 

I don't think they killed her because of the sex so much as because she was a freakin' idiot who deserved to die.

Edited November 15, 2015 by HalcyonDays
Tagged comics spoiler in quote

[Starchild]

I wonder if, with Andrea gone, they'd give more of her comic storylines to Carol. Comic Andrea is a badass, and so is TV Carol. So maybe

they'd eventually have Rick and Carol hook up

? That would be refreshingly unexpected.

[HalcyonDays]

What is this "sleep" thing you speak of?

 

Last night, I actually did. 12 hours long. Apparently not sleeping for a few days helps.

 

And some wine.

 

Well if you're having trouble sleeping, I suggest you actually read Love in the Time of Cholera. You'll be bright eyed and bushy tailed in no time flat.

 

But will I finish the first chapter? Hee.

[peach]

I don't think they killed her because of the sex so much as because she was a freakin' idiot who deserved to die.

 

Two things often cited as proof of that is that she slept with Shane, and the Governor.  It was such a waste, IMO.  Instead of improving the writing, which is their fault, they killed her off. 

 

I used to hate Carol's character, and sometimes felt guilty that I didn't feel more sympathy for a grieving mother, but her simpering tears and weakness, and running down Rick behind his back, just really got under my skin.  I wanted her get eaten on that farm.  Andrea got separated because of her.  Anyway, they wrote her into someone better.  Andrea got a miserable death.

[ghoulina]

In my head, there are hookups happening, we're just not seeing them all. Which is fine with me. As for actual relationships, I get wary of that. For one, I do agree with those who argue that the writers do not handle romantic relationships well and it can often "kill" an interesting character. But what I really really love is seeing a strong friendship between a male and a female that DOESN'T turn romantic. I roll my eyes every time I'm reading a book or watching a show/movie and the friend eventually fall in love. Sure, it does happen. But I've had best, best friends who were men and I never thought about them that way. I like seeing Carol and Daryl love each other so much without being IN love. 

[peach]

I'm watching a crossover episode of the Simpsons and Futurama, and they're talking about hooking up at the end of the world.

"You're lips, my lips, apocalypse!"

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Tptb tried to turn Jessie into CB Andrea for Rick and failed.

JMO

[NorthstarATL]

Hook-ups made sense in Woodbury, the prison, and, now that some of them have showered, Alexandria, but I have to figure that the overwhelming stench of many survivors would be a turn off, as well as the distraction that sex carries with it being dangerous. Add to that that pregnancy is even more likely to be debilitating physical change, and maybe sex might be something that people would put off until being settled/safe. There is also the factor of life expectancy, which is much shorter for the survivors than the average person pre-ZA, AND my favorite fear: why would you sleep with someone who might, conceivably, die in their sleep, turn, and see you as their first zombie meal? No one, IMO, is hot enough to get past all that.

 However, should the show cast someone I find totally doable, I take all of this back.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Not entirely sure they are going to actually go there, or not... but if they do, here is my response to Abe/Sasha;

[Anela]

I mentioned this in the episode thread: I wondered, last week, if they were thinking about hooking up Spencer and Rosita. He was attracted to Sasha, though, wasn't he? At least pre-pasta maker freak-out. 

 

I can't picture Abe and Sasha together. Wasn't he playing up to Michonne at the party? 

[Anela]

My mouse keeps double-clicking.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Anela

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I mentioned this in the episode thread: I wondered, last week, if they were thinking about hooking up Spencer and Rosita. He was attracted to Sasha, though, wasn't he? At least pre-pasta maker freak-out. 

 

I can't picture Abe and Sasha together. Wasn't he playing up to Michonne at the party?

 

I wonder if this will be an intentional plot point; making Abe out to be either a self-believed 'Romeo' or 'Don Juan' - or - he's messed up in the head and believes that its his "job" to repopulate or something like that.  Its just weird.

 

Has had Rosita all along, then the 'moment' with Michonne at the party, I think he tried to have a little 'moment' with Francine during that episode last season with him on the work crew & she fell off the crane during the walker attack - and now he's going after Sasha.  Its like WTF are we witnessing here??

 

 

And don't get me started on Spencer.  Either with him/Sasha or Rosita.  And I will react like this (again) if Spencer/Rosita happens as a result from the little scene last week and now this seemingly developing A/S;

Edited November 16, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[GodsBeloved]

Well, I honestly don't think anyone else is a great fit for her, and the one I hear most about is Rick. She's only alive because Merle became a slightly better person long before Rick made his impotent half-assed attempt at unpressing the button. And, hell, at least when Merle was going to give her to the Gov, he was doing it as an "honest" bad guy who just wanted to use her to get close to somebody he really hated and wanted to kill. Rick seriously had to think about whether or not it was cool to let somebody torture her to death just for that one millionth of one per cent chance that Lucy wouldn't pull the football out of the way this time.

So, Rick not only has way too slow a learning curve to make him worthy of Michonne, but even after she saved Andrea from zombies, saved Judith from starvation, told him where Glenn and Maggie were imprisoned, and protected Coral while Rick talked to CrazyMorgan all day, she was still relatively expendable.

No way in hell, after that shit, is Rick allowed to get with Michonne.

I know I need to let it go but I'm still salty over this LOL

 

Even redneck Darryl was against sending Michonne to the Gov. For a minute there I shipped Michonne and Darryl but that greasy, stringy hair Darryl is sporting cancelled Christmas on that ship for me.

[ghoulina]

Not entirely sure they are going to actually go there, or not... but if they do, here is my response to Abe/Sasha;

 

This is the best thing ever. And I couldn't agree more. It just seems like such a random pairing. Like TPTB picked two names out of a hat. Not only have I not seen any indication that Abe is into Sasha before (same as with Denise and Tara), but we haven't seen any issues with him and Rosita either, have we? Are we just to forget they were together? Was he just using her for sex? 

 

Oh well, Mr. Ghoulina says "no matter, they gave him a bunch of lines tonight and a new love interest, so he'll probably be dead by the mid-season finale".

Edited November 16, 2015 by ghoulina

[nodorothyparker]

I'm trying to figure out what exactly the show is trying to say by making the only two male characters who have shown any hint of a sex drive either stalkery and inappropriate (Rick) or too skeevy to be taken seriously (Abe).

[NorthstarATL]

I'm trying to figure out what exactly the show is trying to say by making the only two male characters who have shown any hint of a sex drive either stalkery and inappropriate (Rick) or too skeevy to be taken seriously (Abe).

You're forgetting Glenn, Carl, and Eugene.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm pretty sure Carl and Eugene are both virgins and I'm not really considering puppy eyes in a tree or a little voyeurism in the library in this discussion.  Glenn has so much anti-chemistry with Maggie that they might just make me a believer in immaculate conception.

[AngelaHunter]

This isn't a show about sex it is a show about death.

 

I don't see it as a show about either, really. I see it as a show about survival and what people will do - how far they'll go -  to stay alive against all odds. I certainly don't watch it for "romance" but it's unrealistic to see all these people never turn to each other for comfort that may include sex.

[rab01]

I thought Glenn and Maggie had real chemistry when they first met. Back when he was still joking around and calling Rick dumbass and she was mocking his performance and cracking eggs on his head. Both of them have turned dour and purpose-oriented, which is sensible given what's happened to them but not as much fun. They need to be in scenes together doing stuff where they can talk to each other about stuff other than being schmoopy. (Assuming that when Schrodinger's Glenn resolves, he's still breathing.)

 

I think Carol, Michonne and Daryl's celibacy are the least believable of the bunch. I agree with AngelaHunter that sheer excitement, relief, fear, adrenaline would have led to more sex. Why wouldn't the Daryl Dixon we first met have had sex in two years? I don't know whether he's into girls or guys but I don't believe he's not into sex. And, my headcanon for Michonne is that she likes both guys and girls and that there was a romance off-screen with Andrea but she is damn well capable of having approached a guy on-screen at some point and they would certainly have said "yes." I don't need to see the scenes, I don't need to have romances between the characters, but I need the show to admit that these bad-ass but wholly human characters that they've been showing us aren't all secretly a bunch of warrior-monks.

Edited November 16, 2015 by rab01

[Eyes High]

I'm not surprised about Abe/Sasha. 

Abe cheated with Rosita and hooked up with Holly in the comics, and TV Holly is dead. Abe was pretty shitty about this when called on it in the comics as I recall, basically telling Rosita that he wasn't interested in her now that he actually had options and she wasn't the last woman alive or some shit like that.

At least this will go some ways to counter the perception that the writers have some sort of mental opposition to white male characters forming romantic or at least sexual attachments to black female characters on the show.

 

I'm not surprised that Abe is attracted to Sasha. Her PTSD is recognizable and understandable to him, creating a bond between them, and she's very beautiful. (How does Sonequa look better with with a "no-makeup" makeup look than most women look with a full face? Damn, those are some good genes.) I did see the grim humour in Rosita weeping over her man's safety while he's off blithely hitting on some other girl; the "Even in the apocalypse, men never change" tweets were flying fast and furious on Twitter during the episode.

 

As for the lack of sex in general on the show, I'd have expected under these circumstances to see a lot more opportunistic same-sex relationships between people who would otherwise identify as straight, given the small size of the groups and their isolation, and a lot of relationships between people who given any amount of choice would not be particularly interested in one another. On Orange is the New Black, at an all-female prison, there are inmates who always identified as lesbian (Nicky, Big Boo, Poussey); inmates who identify as straight but who have same-sex relationships in prison (Morello); and inmates who identify as straight and seek out heterosexual relationships or rebuff advances from same-sex admirers (Daya, Taystee, Pennsatucky). Similarly, on Oz, a show about an all-male prison, there were inmates who identified as gay (Keller); inmates who identified as straight but who had same-sex relationships in prison (Beecher); and inmates who identified as straight and sought out heterosexual relationships (Ryan). Obviously, TWD is different in that it's not a mostly same-sex environment, but pickings would be pretty slim for a lot of the "inmates" in the group and one would have expected them to react similarly.

 

One would also have expected to see under these circumstances a lot more "unlikely" pairings with less deference to big discrepancies in age and attractiveness, but we haven't seen much of that in the show. Abe and Glenn are not as attractive as Rosita and Maggie, but it's not questionable that they would pair off. Ditto for Bob/Sasha.

 

As for Daryl, word of God (i.e. Kirkman) is that he's 100% straight. Assuming he's not asexual, is it unlikely that he would have shown no overt sexual interest in any woman since the beginning of the show (unlike, say, Eugene, who is clearly celibate but is assuredly heterosexual), despite the preponderance of attractive women running around? I don't know. If you take into account his history of abuse and what appears to be a fairly reticent nature, it doesn't seem crazy to me that he would have issues expressing a romantic or sexual interest in someone.

 

With that said, I don't see that there's any "there" there with Daryl/Carol. She's expressed interest in him and he's rebuffed her. He does love her, but I see nothing that indicates that he's in love with her.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Eyes High

[Happy Harpy]

With that said, I don't see that there's any "there" there with Daryl/Carol. She's expressed interest in him and he's rebuffed her. He does love her, but I see nothing that indicates that he's in love with her.

I don't see a romantic dimension, but I see closeness, like-mindedness, affection, understanding, respect, support. That's why although I'm not a shipper, I wouldn't be WTFing if Carol and Daryl turned romantic. I don't see that kind of chemistry, but at least it would make sense. Moreover, they're good for each other and bring the good out of each other, imo. It's better than any of the official couples we got since the beginning of the season, still imo.

 

 

Like TPTB picked two names out of a hat. Not only have I not seen any indication that Abe is into Sasha before (same as with Denise and Tara), but we haven't seen any issues with him and Rosita either, have we? Are we just to forget they were together? Was he just using her for sex? 

.

Denise/Tara came out of the blue, and since one of the actresses was obviously veeery pregnant I really didn't expect her character to get a love interest out of all the 80% celibate bunch of regulars. But it didn't make me think less of any of them. The moment was kind of cute.

Abraham and Sasha was out of the blue imo and it made me think less of both of them. It does sound as if he used Rosita for sex whereas she cares about him (and yet she is so out of his league, imo. I'm not gay, but I'd do her before I do him because of the hideous 'stache). And I took Sasha's attitude as very hypocritical, "break off with your regular, just for the record, before we jump into bed".

 

Rick/Jessie wasn't out of the blue -it was rushed, imo, but it's right under the "anvilicious" definition at TV Tropes. Yet, I don't like it for the same reason as I dislike Abraham/Sasha: it makes me think less of them both.

It goes beyond Rick behaving as a petty rooster imo at the end of last season, which was just annoying for me as a fan of the character. The worst in this relationship is that it makes him the Shane in a way, imo. And yes, Ron needs a W carved on his forehead, not for Wolf but for Wanker, and I can't wait until he dies because thankfully this isn't GoT where all the Ramsay Snows of the world have nine lives. Nevertheless, he's a teenager and Rick killed his Dad a few days (?) ago, no matter how justified it was. Rick should know better especially after what Carl went through because of Rick/Lori/Shane. It makes him look insensitive and/or dumb, because come on, he was wary of Aaron and not of Lecter Junior?

 

Tptb tried to turn Jessie into CB Andrea for Rick and failed.

I agree, although imo they dropped the ball when they made Porch Dick beat his kids, too. Because of it, I can't buy Jessie as a Mama Bear or as someone who would place her kids' interest/well-being above what she wants/what's convenient for her.

I'm not rioting over Rick/Jessie, unless the writers try to sell it as a great love story and not as a very bad idea that will end in disaster -hopefully for no one I care for.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Eyes High]

I don't see a romantic dimension, but I see closeness, like-mindedness, affection, understanding, respect, support. That's why although I'm not a shipper, I wouldn't be WTFing if Carol and Daryl turned romantic. I don't see that kind of chemistry, but at least it would make sense. Moreover, they're good for each other and bring the good out of each other, imo. It's better than any of the official couples we got since the beginning of the season, still imo.

 

And I took Sasha's attitude as very hypocritical, "break off with your regular, just for the record, before we jump into bed".

 

I wouldn't be shocked or appalled at Daryl/Carol turning romantic. He clearly does love her; in fact, I'd go so far as to say that he loves her more than she loves him--witness him losing his shit and crying like a baby when he sees Carol again in 5x01--even if she seems to have an attraction towards him which isn't (as far as we know) reciprocated. If he were suddenly to manifest overt sexual attraction towards her, his previous lack of interest could be chalked up to shyness or lingering issues from his past abuse. I'm just saying that at present, I don't see any "there" there. They lay down on the same bed with no apparent tension, discomfort or nervousness, not something people do--even people on a mission who are good at compartmentalizing--if there's any spark. I think part of the reason Daryl seems so comfortable with Carol these days is that he knows that she'd never try to cross the line and that she respects his boundaries. 

 

How is Sasha's attitude hypocritical? If she is interested in Abraham, the honourable thing to do is to tell him to break it off with Rosita before he comes sniffing around her. (I suppose you could argue that Sasha owes it to Rosita not to poach her man, but I never saw any indication that Sasha and Rosita were sufficiently close for this to be a valid consideration. And really, given how small the group is, any such code would be pretty prohibitive in terms of limiting the pool of available partners.)

[Ocean Chick]

Well, once Rosita gets the boot from Abe, it'll make for some awkward times 'round old ASZ.  "The Days of our Walkers" or something.  Will Abe move to Sasha's room?  Or will Rosita and Sasha change rooms?  Will Rosita join Eugene in his little viewings?  Stay tuned.....

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I don't care that there are relationships happening, its just it all seems so immediately sudden;  like we went from Maggie/Glenn (+ a very sparse sprinkling of hookup scenes for a couple others) for 4 seasons and now all of a sudden its a matchmaking cornucopia in the ZA!  And now, not only do we get to go on the ride of seeing developing relationships, we get to see others devolve and see 'friendships' & familial bonds get strained in the process.  YAY!  [/snark]

 

If I want all this soap opera drama, I'll put myself through the torture of watching DoOL or some other daytime shit.

[shanndee]

I think it only appears immediately sudden because more people are relaxed and able to let their guards down a little. When you have shelter, food and protective walls every moment does not have to be concentrated on survival. You can start to pay more attention to the people around you and realize that, hey, there are more things to life than just continuing to exist.

[rab01]

It's one possible relationship change this week -- a maybe Sasha and Abe; one new relationship last week -- Tara and the doctor; none for the three weeks before that and one new relationship last season - Rick and Jessie. That doesn't seem like a lot of new relationship drama to me.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

It's one possible relationship change this week -- a maybe Sasha and Abe; one new relationship last week -- Tara and the doctor; none for the three weeks before that and one new relationship last season - Rick and Jessie. That doesn't seem like a lot of new relationship drama to me.

 

Compared to what we had between the Rick-Lori-Shane/RIck-Lori stuff [3+ seasons ago] and up until now, it is.

 

But like shanndee mentioned, there is more 'time' and leeway to think about stuff like that now (even though the respite is over [for now]); I guess.

 

I know there is only so much time available, but for me, I didn't appreciate how the writing seemed to have needed Tara/Denise and Sasha/Abe to happen, so they just threw it at the wall and are [most likely] going to make it stick, no matter what.  For both 'ships, there was either no lead-up to them or if there was, one had to squint & concentrate very hard to have seen it before the 'reveal'.

[NoWillToResist]

No way they were going to give the fat girl an actual man - make her a lesbian because Tara is lonely and must be Boo'd up at all times to stave off the PC patrol.  

 

I am very on the fence about this relationship. I like Tara and I like Denise. However, I had no clue that "romance" was on their horizon. And while I agree with your assessment of the 'fat' chick's prospects with men, I feel like, had there been more development, I would have been more than happy for Tara and Denise to become an item. But I am already annoyed by the Rick/Jessie garbage (and I say this as someone who has absolutely no shipper bias for Rick at all), so I feel like Tara and Denise have fallen victim to this 'quick, throw some characters together because otherwise no one will like them!' writing.

 

On a related note, I would love to know if TPTB got the same vitriol for that liplock that they got for the Aaron/Eric one. Something tells me that they didn't...gay double standards in an audience are very consistent, IMO.

 

Your first few sentences are exactly why I don't want to see romantic pairings between our main cast on this show.  The writers would handle it terribly and would totally ruin those characters.

 

And then there's this. I'm kind of glad that they're giving romances to the characters I don't give a flying fuck about because if Glenn/Maggie is anything to go by, it's a one-way ticket to my shitlist. The whole Ron/Carl/Hermione triangle has taken so little screen time, but for 100% of it, I was "fuck off with this shit". So, to be quite honest, I'm more than happy for romance to give Daryl, Carol and Michonne a wide berth...

 

I like seeing Carol and Daryl love each other so much without being IN love. 

 

I've said this about other duos on shows, and it applies to Carol and Daryl here: I don't know exactly what their relationship IS, but I know that I like it. :)

[Eyes High]

Society desexualizes women they don't consider to be the aesthetic ideal or socially acceptable as coveted.  Even with the doctor.  No way they were going to give the fat girl an actual man - make her a lesbian because Tara is lonely and must be Boo'd up at all times to stave off the PC patrol.  The bottom line is that old women are in love all the time.  So are black women.  So are fat women.  Just not on tv.  You're just not allowed to get some on tv unless you look like Jessie, Maggie, Sasha, and Rosita. 

 

All indications are that Denise, a woman who's not a size 2, might be "getting some" or be "in love" with Tara. I'm not clear as to why this is indicative of "fat women" not being "allowed" to get some or fall in love on TV unless they're rail-thin. Denise is in love with a woman, so it "doesn't count"? Loving a woman doesn't have the same value as loving a man? How is Denise "desexualized"? She wears comfortable and practical clothes, but so does everyone, even love interest characters like Jessie. She kissed the young and beautiful Tara on the lips, which is more action than Daryl's gotten in five seasons. 

 

Also, I don't understand your insistence that love isn't for "black women" while stating that you're only allowed to "get some" on TV if you look like, among others, "Sasha," a black woman who's had a romance on the show. 

 

Your insistence that love isn't for "old women" on TWD is also flawed. Deanna, played by an older actress who actually looks her age, was happily married to Reg, who by all accounts appears to have been a loving and devoted husband. Deanna's love for her husband is even a plot point, as she relied on his support and love and is clearly lost without him. Compared to the generally shitty partners of the young and beautiful crowd--Jessie's abusive husband, Rosita's unfaithful man, Michonne's useless boyfriend, etc.--I'd say Deanna won the male partner sweepstakes.

 

As for Daryl/Carol, whatever their relationship is, it seems to work for them and neither of them has shown any desire to change it, so I really don't see what the problem is. I'd feel the same way about Rick/Michonne--their relationship works for them, so whatever--were it not for the whole "mammy" vibe to Michonne being content to act as Carl's nanny. To be fair, though, there's been less of that since the group arrived in Alexandria. Michonne's off doing her own thing, and Carl's got his own drama to deal with.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Eyes High

[shanndee]

...

 

Your insistence that love isn't for "old women" on TWD is also flawed. Deanna, played by an older actress who actually looks her age, was happily married to Reg, who by all accounts appears to have been a loving and devoted husband. Deanna's love for her husband is even a plot point, as she relied on his support and love and is clearly lost without him. Compared to the generally shitty partners of the young and beautiful crowd--Jessie's abusive husband, Rosita's unfaithful man, Michonne's useless boyfriend, etc.--I'd say Deanna won the male partner sweepstakes.

 

...

 

Ah. But that was a long term marriage. This allows for the fact that 30 ish years ago she was young and attractive. Then she married and was off the market. Now she is a widow. She will never be portrayed as desirable or worthy of warm companionship again.

 

As for the doctor, I'm happy that she is pursing a relationship with Tara. Up until that moment the only relationship role I could foresee for her was that of the smart, funny, fat friend (since that really appears to be all that show biz will allow for a woman who isn't a size 2).

 

Just my 2 cents worth...

[JBody]

I thought for sure she and Eugene were going to be the nerd couple of the season. Eugene (incredulously): You're a doctor? Denise (sarcastically): Are you?.... *stifles laughter* Sorry, I heard the story.

That was one snappy little exchange and it made me LOL (as do most Eugene scenes). I would've totally went with that ship.

[nodorothyparker]

I think it only appears immediately sudden because more people are relaxed and able to let their guards down a little. When you have shelter, food and protective walls every moment does not have to be concentrated on survival. You can start to pay more attention to the people around you and realize that, hey, there are more things to life than just continuing to exist.

 

I've always expected that if our gang ever got someplace relatively safe and went more than two or three days at a time between battling psychopaths with tanks, hipster cannibals, or now grungy nihilists that we'd see a lot more movement on a lot of personal levels.  Because for the first time in forever, they've got the space and energy to think about it.  Instead of just fighting to survive while being filthy, they have time to consider what might come next or even what they want.

 

I think that's what Abraham's arc is supposed to be this season, however muddled it's coming across.  He careened from suicidal and losing his entire family to single-mindedly fixating on Eugene and his idiotic save the world mission to dragging along with our group drinking whatever nasty water he could find and eating Fido.  His relationship with Rosita seemed to be based on the fact that she was available and willing.  Now he's suddenly confronted with settling somewhere longterm for what passes for normal life in the ZA and trying to figure out what that even looks like.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't ship or anti-ship on this show. I don't really care about the romantic relationships, I actually find the friendly/familial relationship building more interesting and entertaining.

I don't think this show is particularly good with romance/relationship drama. If I had my way it would be something hinted at in passing but never really addressed or focused on. I'd rather an off-hand remark, someone coming out of another person's room in the morning, someone wearing a recognizable article of clothing etc.

I don't have any real objection to Abe/Sasha except for the way he hit on her (which came off as a bit sleezy) plus they just showed Rosita crying over Abe last week. I just have the feeling that this is going to be very messy and not very entertaining

Edited November 17, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Happy Harpy]

How is Sasha's attitude hypocritical? If she is interested in Abraham, the honourable thing to do is to tell him to break it off with Rosita before he comes sniffing around her. (I suppose you could argue that Sasha owes it to Rosita not to poach her man, but I never saw any indication that Sasha and Rosita were sufficiently close for this to be a valid consideration. And really, given how small the group is, any such code would be pretty prohibitive in terms of limiting the pool of available partners.)

She let Abraham know she's interested, that's what makes her hypocritical for me. Had she been 100% unreceptive to him, showed she was interested in him/had feelings for him at another moment (like the one they gave to Rosita) I'd have applauded her; and would have no problem with Abraham and her getting together later, after he broke-up with Rosita because of them, not solely in order to sleep with Sasha which is how I perceive it right now. Dumping someone in order to get together with someone else is better than cheating, but for me it isn't admirable either, especially since the writers didn't allow me to invest emotionally in their relationship beforehand. If they had established Sasha and Abraham as attracted to each other and "fighting" their attraction because he's with someone (or better, have Abraham break up with Rosita before he hit on Sasha) then I would have found them honorable and I would have perceived them in another way. As it is, I see Abraham as ensuring he doesn't end up with his bed empty, and Sasha ensuring that technically, she didn't poach Rosita's boyfriend.

 

As for Daryl/Carol, whatever their relationship is, it seems to work for them and neither of them has shown any desire to change it, so I really don't see what the problem is. I'd feel the same way about Rick/Michonne--their relationship works for them, so whatever--were it not for the whole "mammy" vibe to Michonne being content to act as Carl's nanny. To be fair, though, there's been less of that since the group arrived in Alexandria. Michonne's off doing her own thing, and Carl's got his own drama to deal with.

I agree about Daryl/Carol, I like them as they are. Well, I "liked" since they don't have scenes together anymore lately. Sigh.

For Carl/Michonne, I never had the impression that she was his nanny at all.  I never felt that she was placed "in charge" of Carl, or saw herself like that.

I think it's because their relationship developped independently from her relationship to Rick; and because in the beginning they were presented more as friends, equal to equal, than as child/adult, imo. Then their bond developped and they became confidante. Now if there's a vibe I personally see a "mommy" one, and it's still unrelated to Rick or to Michonne's status in his life. Carl has lost his mother, Michonne has lost her kid, and they found each other to fill that void in their lives -not entirely, you can't replace a mother or a child. That's why for me, "nanny" would be reductive of their relationship, which is one of my favorite on the show.

[NoWillToResist]

 If they had established Sasha and Abraham as attracted to each other and "fighting" their attraction because he's with someone (or better, have Abraham break up with Rosita before he hit on Sasha) then I would have found them honorable and I would have perceived them in another way. As it is, I see Abraham as ensuring he doesn't end up with his bed empty, and Sasha ensuring that technically, she didn't poach Rosita's boyfriend.

 

 

I did not get the sense that Abe or Rosita were tiring of their...arrangement...so I didn't see Abe's behaviour as 'better lock someone else down'! ;)

 

Admittedly, I don't really care about Abe/Sasha yet and felt a little WTF about their seemingly impending hook up, but I think I can come to terms with it because, before now, they hadn't really spent any time together. Sasha was broken after the deaths of her boyfriend and brother and she was a loose cannon. I think that was something that Abe could relate to. And then they spent a lot of time together in that car, going 2 mph, so they probably got to know each other a little better and perhaps liked what they saw. *We* didn't really witness much of that, but they were together for that long-ass car ride, so I suppose it could be argued that, for the characters, it wasn't completely out of left field...

[CletusMusashi]

Maybe Rosita will get so pissed off at Abe that she'll hook up with Eugene. This would amuse me.

But of course in an ideal world, Rosita would be with Tara. Eugene would be with the shrink, and then Sasha could maybe work okay with Abe. although I would prefer Sasha to be with somebody competent but sane, freeing up a sexually frustrated Abraham to drag Father Pee Pants on an insane buddy road trip through Wolf Country.

As long as FPP dies in the process.

[ghoulina]

I do think it would be quite interesting to see how a breakup works in the ZA. We only kind of saw that with Rick and Lori, but they were still so tied together, with the two kids. And Lori died before they even fully got settled in at the prison, so there wasn't really any time to relax and move on. Or get back together, as the case may have been. 

 

But, yes, I think it would interesting to see what happens. Do you both stay in the same group? Is it too hard to move on because the other person is staring at you all the time? Does one choose to leave the group? Not likely, that's life or death. Do other members of the group take sides? 

 

Honestly, I would like to see more inner-group dynamics, in general, instead of the same old  "We find a new place, new place goes bad, we're on the run again" saga. My issue with the Abe-Sasha thing is that it just feels so random and out of nowhere. If they're going to go there with it, introduce it much earlier. Maybe show some dissatisfaction with Rosita on Abe's part. A little more of Sasha and Abe spending time together, and highlighting what it is they like about each other. Is this just physical or is he really into her? I can't even tell. In the car, it seemed like Sasha thought he was a freaking idiot.

 

It was just done so sloppily, like - "We can foist anything on you and you'll think it's awesome". And I know they probably won't even explore the intricacies of a ZA breakup. They'll probably just kill Rosita or make it seem like nothing ever happened. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by ghoulina

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I do think it would be quite interesting to see how a breakup works in the ZA. We only kind of saw that with Rick and Lori, but they were still so tied together, with the two kids. And Lori died before they even fully got settled in at the prison, so there wasn't really any time to relax and move on. Or get back together, as the case may have been. 

 

But, yes, I think it would interesting to see what happens. Do you both stay in the same group? Is it too hard to move on because the other person is staring at you all the time? Does one choose to leave the group? Not likely, that's life or death. Do other members of the group take sides? 

 

Honestly, I would like to see more inner-group dynamics, in general, instead of the same old  "We find a new place, new place goes bad, we're on the run again" saga. My issue with the Abe-Sasha thing is that it just feels so random and out of nowhere. If they're going to go there with it, introduce it much earlier. Maybe show some dissatisfaction with Rosita on Abe's part. A little more of Sasha and Abe spending time together, and highlighting what it is they like about each other. Is this just physical or is he really into her? I can't even tell. In the car, it seemed like Sasha thought he was a freaking idiot.

 

It was just done so sloppily, like - "We can foist anything on you and you'll think it's awesome". And I know they probably won't even explore the intricacies of a ZA breakup. They'll probably just kill Rosita or make it seem like nothing ever happened. 

 

Bingo.  (although I'll be quite upset if Rosita is killed off just to make room for A/S, very upset)

[JBody]

God forgive me but I'm going to defend the writing. Well, defend may be too strong a word....

Anyway, I think in 5b they tried to do just that. As someone pointed out, when Abe knocked the water bottle out of Rosita's hand and looked ready to knock Rosita to the ground, Maggie had to point her gun at his head to make him stop. I think that must've put a damper on their relationship somewhat. We did briefly see them together after that but none of the playful banter a la "dolphin smooth" *shudder*

[JBody]

Dammit wasn't done. Stupidphone. As for Abe and Sasha, I noticed him checking her out in 5b which also made me shudder but I thought he was just worried about her obvious PTSD. When they were doing the death march (dog dinner time) and Abe was swilling from a mickey and he offered some to Sasha and she said it'll only make things worse... They had a few of these one-off offhand scenes that could be interpreted as a comrades-in-arms type thing but now we see it meant more (to Abe at least, who made the first move). And now they've spent most of the day as the co-grand marshals of the walker parade.

So I think the writing has meant to convey to us the coming together of these two individuals but the fact that many didn't see it coming doesn't say much for how it was executed.

Edited November 18, 2015 by JBody

[ghoulina]

Hmmmm, you may be right, JBody. I will admit I haven't been as invested in this show since early season 5. So I haven't rewatched episodes as much as I used to. I obviously missed some of the connection between them. I do recall Abe being rough with Rosita, but he also punched Eugene out and they're cool again, right? I just figured he was in a state of shock and would have been nasty to anyone who came his way. It would make sense if Rosita was soured on him after that, but she was seen crying about him being gone last episode. From the stuff I've seen, I can only surmise Abe just wasn't that into her, but she was the only girl around. Now that he has more options, he's ready to upgrade.