S02.E06: Enter Zoom

[phoenics]

Every time the writers mangle the Iris-Barry friendship/relationship and marginalize Iris, a kitten dies and a newborn baby cries. Please Flash writers, think of the children and the kittens!

[MikeChatz]

I have about a 1% belief this will happen but as to who is Zoom?

 

Earth 2 Wally West and he hates Barry because Barry got to be raised by Joe and Wally wasn't. Like a few others have mentioned, our Barry will need a bunch of speedsters to help take Zoom down, including a good Wally. Maybe?

[Ruby25]

Is there any way they can become aware of just how horribly they're sidelining Iris and how noticeable it is to everyone? I know they damn well became aware of how much people hated her "being left in the dark" storyline last year, since I've read several defensive interviews about it with the producers/writers. Well, you know what, show? This right now is just as bad.

 

And Patty is NO Felicity and I don't think there's any way they can think that she is, so I'm not convinced Iris is "Laurel being replaced by Felicity" yet. But it is extremely baffling why they're dropping the ball on simply including her in important moments, like being at Barry's freaking bedside.

[Chicago Redshirt]

My name is Barry Allen, and I am the third-fastest man alive.

[VCRTracking]

Linda was cute and Zoom is a scary, scary, SCARY mofo.

Edited November 11, 2015 by VCRTracking

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Is there any way they can become aware of just how horribly they're sidelining Iris and how noticeable it is to everyone? I know they damn well became aware of how much people hated her "being left in the dark" storyline last year, since I've read several defensive interviews about it with the producers/writers. Well, you know what, show? This right now is just as bad.

 

And Patty is NO Felicity and I don't think there's any way they can think that she is, so I'm not convinced Iris is "Laurel being replaced by Felicity" yet. But it is extremely baffling why they're dropping the ball on simply including her in important moments, like being at Barry's freaking bedside.

 

I didn't mean to imply I think that Patty is another Felicity (at least as an exact copy)... its just that from my own POV, I am seeing quite a few similarities in the separate shows; characters, relationship stories, et al.  And I meant it as more that each show's supposed 'leading lady' is being sidelined so that another female(s) can get (too much) more screen time than is enjoyable to watch - going so far as to exclude them from scenes that they should be in.

[Ruby25]

I'm starting to hate seeing her stupid, smiling face though. I really hope I'm right that this relationship falls apart soon into the second half, to make room for Wally coming on as a regular. But I hope she just dumps him and doesn't die, because I don't need another year long story of Barry grieving her death. New 52 Patty Spivot dumped him and left town, let's hope this one is a similar thing.

[Manirys]

Eeesh, what is everyone's problem with Patty, exactly? The vitriol against her seems kind of ridiculous at this point. 

[Ruby25]

You didn't think she was horrible in this episode and took up screentime with pointless scenes of her and Joe?

[Whitley Trillbert]

Zoom has to be either Barry's dad or Joe earth 2

 

Those last few moments of the show was the darkest this show has gotten yet. I was legit cowering and watching with one eye.

 

I really hate Patty now. She was terrible in this episode- why the hell did they need to keep that scene with her and Joe? She's pointless and Grant looks like the last thing he wants to be doing is kissing her- his face in that scene at the station was so reluctant, lol. I'm surprised he can't even fake that, since the only reason (male) viewers have responded to her is because she's hot.

 

But seriously, she felt like an interloper in this one, and I don't see why it was more important to have those scenes with her and Joe instead of more screen time for Iris. There's simply no justification for that.

[phoenics]

Eeesh, what is everyone's problem with Patty, exactly? The vitriol against her seems kind of ridiculous at this point.

I don't hate Patty. I don't anything Patty - except the fact that she's sucking screen time away from Iris, who is being really, really marginalized. It's not just Patty sucking time from her, but when you think about how Patty has already had more screen time this season than Eddie had pretty much all last season, it's jarring. It's worse when you realize how badly Iris West is being shoved to the margins, even with her being in on the secret.

Okay I do have one thought about Patty - she's very Mary Sue-ish and that's annoying. On some levels, Felicity on Arrow has some severe (or had) Mary Sue traits and read more as a fan self insert, but with Patty, she reads more as a "male fantasy female character who only smiles and is always perky" and just ... not really human, lol. I kind of see her as the result of an all-male focus group on how to write a female character that the male comic fandom will like. But unfortunately, she's coming off as bland and unreal.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Eeesh, what is everyone's problem with Patty, exactly? The vitriol against her seems kind of ridiculous at this point. 

 

If Iris wasn't a part of the show - or had a very minor part in it - I'd have little to complain about Patty's usage.

 

But when we've been specifically told what Iris means to Barry, Patty's inclusion and story is hard to enjoy when the main female character is marginalized to the point that its sometimes hard to remember that she's still actually there somewhere, and Patty is front and center with either Barry or Iris' own father.

Edited November 11, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[phoenics]

If Iris wasn't a part of the show - or had a very minor part in it - I'd have little to complain about Patty's usage.

 

But when we've been specifically told what Iris means to Barry, Patty's inclusion and story is hard to enjoy when the main female character is marginalized to the point that its sometimes hard to remember that she's still actually there somewhere, and Patty is front and center with either Barry or her own father.

It feels very, very disrespectful. And deliberate. And when you add in that Iris is portrayed by a black actress it just gets really, really ugly... and starts to feel like a terrible bait and switch.

I don't even watch live anymore - and this was must see tv for me last season. But ever since 1x09, I've felt like the writers decided they were done with the "black Iris" experiment and now want to try something new and drop that. That's probably paranoia, but I've seen this happen so many times on other shows (where no women of color are in power in the writing room) that it's a wonder I didn't bolt sooner.

In Patty's first episode on the show, we found out 1) what motivates her and 2) what she wanted and 3) her PoV.

We still haven't gotten Iris' point of view. And she's the top billed actress on the show... meaning leading actress. It's wrong what these writers are doing. Even Iris' big "Mom" story turned out to be Barry and Joe talking more about it than Iris herself. And the stupid editors actually CUT the scene of Barry supporting Iris about what to do about her mom.

Just ... this show is shooting itself in the foot.

We need an #IrisWestDeservesBetter campaign... and it has to be that hashtag because it NEEDS to get the media to connect it with the Abbie Mills one from last year - because the issues and problems are kinda similar and the writers need something to shock them into understanding how badly they are messing up.

[Diapason Untuned]

There was NO reason not to have her there when he woke up - or even Joe! NO REASON - not after she saw him get dragged like that.

I just assumed she and Joe weren't there because it was the middle of the day and they had to go to work.Cisco and Caitlin did say it was a while.

[twoods]

That look on Iris's face when she saw how beat up Barry looked with Zoom was heartbreaking, but then she wasn't there at his bedside at the end. Great job writers. Joe got his pissed off reaction to seeing Barry like that which makes me more mad. I still think she needs more screen time, but don't hate Patty. I think her and Barry are cute, and he needs to be happy. I wonder how he's going to explain to her how he's paralyzed. I agree with the above poster that it could be psychological because he's scared of Zoom, like Jay is.

Zoom is going to give me nightmares tonight. He is terrifying. I like the spec that it could be earth 2 Barry or Henry. Or maybe Joe.

[phoenics]

Another theory is that it's Wally - E2 Wally, who is jelly that Barry got the family he believes he deserves... which would kinda make sense for this show - merging the Cobalt Blue/Zoom storylines like that the way they did with Wells/Thawne.

[Ruby25]

You know, that's a pretty good theory. I could see that happening, but they'd really have to kick off the Wally story in a big way as soon as he comes on.

[Bats27]

It seems like most of the complaints in relation to Iris vs. Patty boil down to "Iris and Barry need to be together, because that's how it is in the comics."  And personally, I don't care.  This ISN'T the comics, they're under no obligation to do things 100% like the comics, nor should they in my opinion because that'd be boring.  Right now, I like Patty and her chemistry with Barry is just better than Iris (she works well as a friend/confident, not as a romantic interest).  So I'd prefer that they stick to this right now, as opposed to forcing Barry/Iris, for nostalgia's sake.

 

Now onto more important elements, WOW Zoom is a beast.  He pulled a Bane on Barry and crippled him, yikes.  Also, Barry telling Linda, and his reasoning for doing so, was surprisingly mature/reasonable, well-played writers, well-played.

[Rai]

I like Patty. 

 

I like Iris.  I would expect someone who works at a newspaper might be filing a report on this horrible event and can't be at Barry's bedside the whole time.

 

I expect this thing with Patty will run its course, and then a romance will bloom with Iris again, but then Linda might be drawn back in, and then maybe Iris will find someone else to date, and so on.  It's a soap opera.  Last season, most people here seemed to dislike Iris quite a bit, so it's great people are rooting for her now.  But I think it's more fun to sit back and enjoy the ride.  If Iris is Barry's Lois Lane, then they'll get there.  But let them have some fun first!

[Actionmage]

Caitlin really got on my nerves

 

Hey, Caitlin? 1) "He" can still hear you and 2) you aren't hacking off a man that looks like the man that killed you in a different timeline. STFU, unless you are belling the cat yourself.

I would like to see much more of Iris, but I was at least glad to see that she and Linda are genuinely bonding. I like their growing friendship, something Iris was deprived of for way too long. Flash sidekicks need crossfit!

 

I would watch an Iris/Linda webseries during hiatus. Doing just about anything. Busting sports scandals, helping each other land scoops, crossfit training, hanging at Jitters or a sports bar. They are characters with great friend chemistry and potential. Potential story starters, helpers for Team Flash, as well as respected journalists- Linda, if not Iris. (Not that Iris can't be respected, just that she's still newish to the profession.)

 

The plan making really was dumb tonight. Caitlin, so concerned about Harry, urging Cisco to keep potentially irking the man with in hearing range. Yet she can tell that sending Linda into a fake Dr. Light situation to draw out Zoom is a bad thing? If you are so concerned that Harry is a bad dude, where does that leave Cisco, your friend, if Harry is indeed a Big Bad, Caitlin? Hip-to-hip with danger is where.

 

I am increasingly irked that Eobard Thawne is still being called Wells. I can understand a thing, but it still makes no sense, especially as all the major players are aware of what actually happened. Calling Thawne "Wells" is a lazy habit ( by the characters and the writers). 

 

Re: Patty. I don't hate her, but she's not really endearing, imo. She's almost too earnest in her tenacity, but Joe just giving her nada after telling him about Barry wasn't cool. We know you are the King of Secrets, Joe, but you don't have to act like Patty- the woman you brought onto your taskforce of (now) two- is either invisible or a drag in some way. That wasn't nonchalant, that was rude. Patty, as a partner, is too good for you.  (PS- Capt. Singh? Like the beard! Keep it, please?)

 

Why would Barry use Jay's tactic against Zoom? Jay has stated plainly that he could never stop Zoom. It follows that Zoom has seen the lightning bolt trick already. Yes, Zoom may not have known  that Barry would know how to do that, but Barry didn't seem to use the lighting in any different a manner than Jay.

 

My man Crisco saved the day and his meta! I loved Linda's side eye at all the Cisco cutouts. He'll grow on you, Linda, but yeah.  I enjoyed her high five mishap. Then again, I mostly enjoyed Linda last season. I did like her "I've made out with the Flash!"  That wasn't necessarily fangirling out; it was: Mind? Blown.

 

While I appreciated Joe trying to get Barry to think things through, especially wrt using civilians as bait, Barry wasn't going to be honest until it was "too late" anyway. We've seen that pattern last season and no amount of near disasters are going to stop him. It would take another major death- I take that back, another death would send us down the same thing that got us to the season finale last time.  As stated upthread, Iris verbalizing that it needs to be Linda's call was a nice beat. Too bad that we weren't given that scene.( Telling, not showing.)

 

I just hope that Team Flash, last shown being skeeved out that Eobard had everyone's life wired for sound and video, took down the audio feeds, at least. Otherwise, if Harry were of a mind, he could be eavesdropping on all sorts of shizz and there you are, two or three steps behind, as per the usual.

 

For a group of scientists, that only Harry took Light's danger seriously is disappointing. That Cisco apparently held onto the idiot ball in order to dismiss every way that Light could escape from the Pipeline and the lab was eyerolling. ( Bad writers! No biscuit!) That Team Flash had two potential sources of info on Light, but asked neither was weak. ( "Jay" could have been on the unseen end of a phone convo with Cisco or Caitlin.)  That Patty delivered the exposition on what properties light can have was tiresome, as Joe's warning was going to be late Because Script. You'd thing a forensic scientist might have a slightly higher respect for the light spectrum as well.

 

Despite my gripes, it was fun to watch live. I was gaping at the screen as Zoom ran around with a bloodied Barry and was all "Here's your god!"  Our Barry, to this point, hasn't been like that, so that felt off. Projecting there, Zoom?  Still, the CCPD, shooting as a united front was great, which made the bullet drop that much more disheartening. Great moment.

[Ruby25]

I like Patty. 

 

I like Iris.  I would expect someone who works at a newspaper might be filing a report on this horrible event and can't be at Barry's bedside the whole time.

 

I expect this thing with Patty will run its course, and then a romance will bloom with Iris again, but then Linda might be drawn back in, and then maybe Iris will find someone else to date, and so on.  It's a soap opera.  Last season, most people here seemed to dislike Iris quite a bit, so it's great people are rooting for her now.  But I think it's more fun to sit back and enjoy the ride.  If Iris is Barry's Lois Lane, then they'll get there.  But let them have some fun first!

I kinda hate this. The thing about Barry/Iris in the comics is that they were married and worked as a team. They were no secrets between them, they were never on/off, there was no "will they/won't they," none of that nonsense. Historically, the only time Barry was with someone else was when he thought she was dead. And this is the only comic book couple I can think of with that kind of solid relationship/marriage (including all the kids, grandkids, etc)- I really wanted to see that.

 

Not even Clark/Lois had that kind of dynamic. It would have been something different to see in this genre, and unique to The Flash. One of the things that stood out about this character.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Ruby25

[Rai]

Depends on which era of Flash from the comics.  Iris wasn't always in the know.  And it's not the comics.  It's a CW super-soap.  Different conventions apply, IMO.  Lois and Clark took their sweet time getting together on Smallville.  Like, first, Lois had to become bearable, and everyone still wanted him to hook up with Chloe anyway.  It's as much about the journey as it is the destination for me.

 

(And off-topic, Sue and Ralph Dibny are usually held up as the ideal married hero/norm duo.  If you don't want to see that dynamic broken up, don't read Identiy Crisis.)

[zannej]

I'm surprised that they didn't ask Jay to tell them absolutely everything he knew about E2 Wells. They could have found out how similar or different he was from their "Wells". I think the reason they keep calling him "Wells" is because that was who they knew him as and "Eobard" is longer. Saying "Thawne" might confuse him with Eddie. I did like that E2 Wells got cranky about it and told them to knock it off.

 

Poor Cisco trying to vibe off of Wells, and Wells catching on right away. He seemed pretty freaked out at the idea of Cisco touching him and had to repeatedly say "don't touch me!" and pull away. I wonder what he thought Cisco could have vibed from him. Anyone else notice that Cisco put his hands over his chest/heart to protect himself when Wells was chewing him out and being creepy?

 

It was clear that Wells didn't notice that Cisco saw something when they were both picking up the spilled lubricant. I couldn't quite figure out why Cisco waited so long to mention what he saw in the vision. He sees it and then we have nothing about it until the end. I get that the writers wanted that reveal, but it didn't quite make sense to me. I'm guessing that Wells didn't even think his daughter was alive at that point.

 

The bit where Jesse was telling Wells that the difference between his "work voice" and home voice was scary to her and her mother was interesting. It reminded me of my father. People were intimidated by him at work but he was a teddy bear at home. Although, I never thought there was anything odd about his "work voice" when he talked to people so I never understood why people were intimidated.

 

Did anyone else find it odd that Jesse storms off all angry and instead of looking upset, Wells sort of smiled and had a semi-creepy line delivery of "You're my joy, Jesse Quick"... Uhh.. WTF? That just seemed inappropriate in that moment and the line itself was just odd.

 

I noticed that Wells actually seemed amused when they said Barry's suit would protect him and Iris asked if it really would or if it was "ish".

 

Ok. So, Zoom kicks Barry's ass bigtime while the team (except for Wells) sit there and do nothing but gawk-- although Wells took his sweet time to go and do something. Zoom says he wants to take "everything" but there is no explanation of why. After beating the crap out of Barry, Zoom says "You're next" to Wells, but then doesn't lay a finger on him. He just proceeds to drag poor Barry all around the town and leave him badly wounded (maybe thinking he would die?) at Star Labs. Maybe he intended to kill him but zoomed off to try to recover from the serum?

 

Another thing I noted was how Wells 2 went from telling Cisco not to touch him to being the one to touch Cisco-- when Barry was being dragged all around, Wells put his hand on Cisco's shoulder. Later when Cisco asked who Jesse was, Wells was grabbing Cisco with both hands. Now, I do wonder what exactly Zoom was doing to Jesse that made her scream. I thought for a moment he'd killed her, but it would be too soon for that. So, either he just hurt her or Cisco lied. I'm sort of surprised that Wells didn't ask more about what he saw to know how his daughter was doing. I also wonder why he thinks capturing Zoom will save Jesse-- although, if they just rescue her, Zoom could probably just come get her again.

 

I wonder where Wells was going when he left.

 

All of the scenes with Patty just felt like filler and interrupted the flow of the episode for me.

 

I wonder how they are going to explain that Barry isn't able to walk or work when everyone saw that the Flash was half-dead. Someone might put 2 and 2 together-- or he will heal too quickly for anyone to notice.

 

Found it interesting that Robert Queen was the Arrow. It makes me wonder if they will make Barry's dad turn out to be Zoom-- although I don't know why he would want to hurt Barry-- except that its not "his" Barry. maybe it will turn out to be Eddie Thawne after all.
 

Edited November 11, 2015 by zannej

[zannej]

accidental double post because my ISP sucks and didn't seem to process the first time I posted.

Edited November 11, 2015 by zannej

[Lady Calypso]

I did kind of like the episode; I wasn't in love with it, but it was good. 

 

Zoom lived up to its potential; I'm a bit surprised, honestly. I thought he'd be an ok villain, but he proved himself quite quickly, with paralyzing Barry and then dragging him around town. I know Barry's not the greatest guy, but Zoom was quite harsh with him. Of course Zoom has to be Earth-2 Barry or Henry. I'd actually like for it to be Iris, but I don't think she fits the physical build.

 

I loved Linda trying to be a supervillain, and I kind of miss her and Barry together. But damn, does Barry just tell everyone? I kind of wish Zoom just ripped off the mask and we can be done with this supposed secret.

 

I liked seeing Harry's flashbacks with his daughter, and am glad Cisco figured it out (although why he didn't say anything for half the episode is beyond me).

 

I don't hate Patty, but I dislike that Iris gets so little focus because of it. I needed more Iris this episode, especially with Linda, and we just get Patty.

[Ruby25]

Depends on which era of Flash from the comics.  Iris wasn't always in the know.  And it's not the comics.  It's a CW super-soap.  Different conventions apply, IMO.  Lois and Clark took their sweet time getting together on Smallville.  Like, first, Lois had to become bearable, and everyone still wanted him to hook up with Chloe anyway.  It's as much about the journey as it is the destination for me.

 

(And off-topic, Sue and Ralph Dibny are usually held up as the ideal married hero/norm duo.  If you don't want to see that dynamic broken up, don't read Identiy Crisis.)

Well, the iconic Clark Kent/Lois Lane dynamic is her being in love with Superman but oblivious about Clark. I would expect a Superman show to play around longer with those two. But the iconic Flash dynamic is them as a married couple and head of the Flash family tree- frankly, I think it would have been far more interesting and different to show us that.

[patchwork]

It's a shame we're never going to see the Light gloves again, they'd be a convenient weapon for the non powered members of Team Flash to have the next time a bad guy tries to nab one of them. 

 

Patty's scenes were pointless and I hate the way Iris is sidelined because she's not Barry's LI at the moment. I don't know how she's being received by the rest of the fandom but it does seem like the producers are seeing if she'll be a hit like Felicity in Arrow and if so Iris probably will get a starring role in a storyline but it would be one that puts her on a bus. 

 

Thawn was a better villain while being the duplicitous, father figure Wells, Reverse Flash was a bit meh imo, but Zoom is terrifying with that mask and the leering. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Not that I am a huge fan of the Batty/Parry, but if they are going to portray it as him really liking her and since he doesn't mind whipping the mask off for most people... he should tell her.  Not only doers it prevent (mostly) needless secrecy and not having to make up crappy lies, but it also stops Joe as coming off as a total asshat just because "Barry's the Flash and Patty doesn't/can't know that!".

 

And if the reasoning for keeping the secret for as long as possible is just to create drama and 'friction' in the relationship, they can just stop already.  We watched it for years on Smallville, then again on Arrow, and now in the 1st season of The Flash.  Cmon CW, surprise us and break the mold, even just a little bit.

Edited November 11, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[foreverevolving]

I liked the reveal that Jesse Quick is E2 Harrison Wells'es daughter. Comic fans might know what I'm talking about. Wow Zoom is a Scary dude not to mention catching that lighting Bolt and kicking Barry's ass.

We already knew that when the casting was announced a few months ago.

 

Eeesh, what is everyone's problem with Patty, exactly? The vitriol against her seems kind of ridiculous at this point. 

Double standards? Honestly she's not saying or doing anything different than what Eddie said and did early last year with Iris- except she's a bit more energetic than he was.

Personally I like her. She's not Felicity, and I don't think they are trying to make her like Felicity.  

 

I like Patty. 

 

I like Iris.  I would expect someone who works at a newspaper might be filing a report on this horrible event and can't be at Barry's bedside the whole time.

 

I expect this thing with Patty will run its course, and then a romance will bloom with Iris again, but then Linda might be drawn back in, and then maybe Iris will find someone else to date, and so on.  It's a soap opera.  Last season, most people here seemed to dislike Iris quite a bit, so it's great people are rooting for her now.  But I think it's more fun to sit back and enjoy the ride.  If Iris is Barry's Lois Lane, then they'll get there.  But let them have some fun first!

Yes!, Yes! and triple Yes!

People don't understand that part of the fun of watching a show is watching the romance slowly bloom. That was Arrow mistake with Oliver and Laurel (well that and casting an actress who has the acting range of a teaspoon).

CP is a far better actress than KC is- from what i've seen so far. at the end of the day she's still a supporting character on the show (same as KC is on Arrow) and i like that they are first slowly exploring and allowing her to grow before rushing into a romance with Barry. I think GG and CP do have chemistry, but I also think he has chemistry with DP and the Patty chick.

Do they have to go all WestAllen at the end? of course. if Smallville & Arrow Oliver taught us anything is that: just because it's comic canon doesn't mean it will happen in the TV show.

 

As for who Zoom is: again I think it's Barry, but I wouldn't mind if it's Joe or Eddie. I guess Henry could be a possibility.. it may explain why he left- I can see Jay contacting him to feel out if he's a good guy on this earth and than warn him he should leave town if he is released because of Zoom. I can see him doing it, if it will protect Barry.

[Marie F.]

It seems like most of the complaints in relation to Iris vs. Patty boil down to "Iris and Barry need to be together, because that's how it is in the comics."  And personally, I don't care.  This ISN'T the comics, they're under no obligation to do things 100% like the comics, nor should they in my opinion because that'd be boring.  Right now, I like Patty and her chemistry with Barry is just better than Iris (she works well as a friend/confident, not as a romantic interest).  So I'd prefer that they stick to this right now, as opposed to forcing Barry/Iris, for nostalgia's sake.

They should have named the show something other than The Flash then or they shouldn't have even brought in an Iris West or a Joe West or people named Thawne or multiple earths or Zoom or Reverse Flash.  People expect to see those things on a show based on the comics because they are huge elements of those comics. People who watch this show expect them to have the Tornado Twins (Iris is their mother) and to usher in Bart, her grandson, etc. They wanted to see Grodd because he is a huge character/villain in the comics. I don't get why it's so unreasonable for people to expect that a tv show about a comic series actually take those elements from the comic series. 

 

I mean, if you name a movie Hunger Games or Harry Potter and say that it's an adaptation of the book, then why wouldn't people expect the main characters from the book and their relationships to be explored in the movie?

 

Personally, I've lost interest in Barry and Iris and still don't care about Patty.  Actually I'm actively starting to resent her because my main problems with her are the fact that 1) she/LOT/and other uninteresting stuff are eating up screen time that I think Iris or other core characters should have, 2) the fact that she's only there to be a love interest, and 3) despite how hard they've tried with her they still haven't given her a personality. This show is terrible with how they write the women and the romances.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Marie F.

[Password]

That episode was fantastic. Zoom is so awesome! I giggled at him dragging Barry around everywhere. THAT'S how you introduce a villain.

About this Iris-Barry thing. I'm really ok with the romance being iced. I'm more annoyed that Iris is an after thought to Barry right now. In season 1 they were built up as super important to each other. Why is it that since romance is off the table, their friendship is too? It's unnecessary. In contrast to Oliver and Laurel in season 1 of Arrow whom I thought were just toxic together, splitting Barry and Iris seems disingenuous. They HAD a genuine friendship (other than the don't tell Iris arc).

I'm here for Iris and Linda being friends :)

[Oscirus]

Zoom is an unadulterated bad ass. I can't help but to think that Wells needle did something to Zoom even if he did take off before we saw the effects.

 

Joe don't agree to take on a partner if you're going to do secret super illegal shit  behind her back. Patty's nosiness is a problem that you made on your own.

 

Writer's y'all just couldn't have Patty maintain a professional demeanor around work? Eh?

 

 

Wells, you didn't realize what Cisco was doing when he touched you? You know what his powers are so you should've known what he was doing.

 

Yea, Iris being the only one absent did kind of stand out. But since I realized the writer's plans for her, their laziness writing her doesn't bother me as much, anymore.

 

Other then the Zoom stuff this really wasn't an exciting episode.

[jay741982]

Eeesh, what is everyone's problem with Patty, exactly? The vitriol against her seems kind of ridiculous at this point.

I agree it's ridiculous! I think she's very likeable, Beautiful and I think her and Barry are adorable. I adore Iris as well and think her and Barry will get together just not right now

[Rai]

Well, the iconic Clark Kent/Lois Lane dynamic is her being in love with Superman but oblivious about Clark. I would expect a Superman show to play around longer with those two. But the iconic Flash dynamic is them as a married couple and head of the Flash family tree- frankly, I think it would have been far more interesting and different to show us that.

But presumably before they got married, they dated for a while first and fell in love.  I don't need to skip over that part.  If they were married already, either they'd be older, or they'd be just way too young to be married (by today's standards).  I think it's a positive thing that two people who grew up together will have the chance to learn how to transition their relationship into a romantic one.  But it'll take some trial and error, and probably some diversions along the way.

 

Maybe I just wasn't paying attention last season, but it didn't seem like Eddie got all this flak for distracting Iris.  Barry gets his turn now is all.

[cambridgeguy]

 

They should have named the show something other than The Flash then or they shouldn't have even brought in an Iris West or a Joe West or people named Thawne or multiple earths or Zoom or Reverse Flash.  People expect to see those things on a show based on the comics because they are huge elements of those comics. People who watch this show expect them to have the Tornado Twins (Iris is their mother) and to usher in Bart, her grandson, etc. They wanted to see Grodd because he is a huge character/villain in the comics. I don't get why it's so unreasonable for people to expect that a tv show about a comic series actually take those elements from the comic series.

The Flash is not nearly as prevalent as Superman or Batman, plus there's the fact that Barry spent 20+ years as a dead man in the main comic books.  While they'll certainly use many elements from the comics I'd imagine that they'll have more freedom in turning things around.  Green Arrow's main love interest is Black Canary in the books but that's certainly no longer the case in the TV show (to general applause, too).

 

Now, whether or not they're using the characters they do have properly is another story altogether.  TV loves to take something that works once and copy it until it breaks, hence Patty trying to fill the Felicity Smoak role.  To be honest they should kill the romance altogether for a while and focus on the heroics but this is a CW show. 

 

Cisco's powers seem to be expanding.  Before he's effectively relived certain moments from the people he was vibing from but this time he saw a scene that Wells couldn't have seen.

[kirinan]

It seems like most of the complaints in relation to Iris vs. Patty boil down to "Iris and Barry need to be together, because that's how it is in the comics."  And personally, I don't care.  This ISN'T the comics, they're under no obligation to do things 100% like the comics, nor should they in my opinion because that'd be boring.

 

ITA. Maybe I'd feel differently if I read the comics, but I prefer the whole ensemble on my screen. Alhough I adore a good romance, I don't care about Barry being with anyone, whether it's Iris or Linda or Patty. I just want to see everyone working and acting together. And to me, although I like her well enough Iris isn't one of the most important characters. That's reserved for Barry, Joe, Harrison, Cisco, and Caitlin. Iris, Patty, Linda, et al are supporting players, so they just show up when they're needed. I felt this episode was a good use of the ensemble.

Edited November 11, 2015 by kirinan

[Sakura12]

Their excuse as to why Barry and Iris are not together is because Iris just lost Eddie and she needed to mourn. However Caitlin lost her HUSBAND and can move on to someone else in the same time period. If you are going to make excuses at least keep them consistent. I know people move on at different rates but since we never see Iris' POV I have no idea if she's still in mourning.

 

I get shows not wanting to put the "couple" together too soon. You know how to solve that? DON"T introduce them in the from the beginning! If they are both there then we have to watch dumb excuse after dumb excuse as to why they are not together. Introduce the love interest when you are ready to put them together.

 

I don't hate Patty, I just find her unnecessary. She adds nothing to the show. They at least made Linda a little more important, especially with her finding out Barry's secret and if they are going do her comic storyline. Patty is just there as a ship block.

[Chicago Redshirt]

It seems like most of the complaints in relation to Iris vs. Patty boil down to "Iris and Barry need to be together, because that's how it is in the comics."  And personally, I don't care.  This ISN'T the comics, they're under no obligation to do things 100% like the comics, nor should they in my opinion because that'd be boring.  Right now, I like Patty and her chemistry with Barry is just better than Iris (she works well as a friend/confident, not as a romantic interest).  So I'd prefer that they stick to this right now, as opposed to forcing Barry/Iris, for nostalgia's sake.

I think you are misreading the complaints in relation to Iris vs. Patty.

 

I will rephrase them as I understand them.

 

1. Candace Patton is supposed to be the lead actress in this show, and Iris is supposed to be the quasi-sister and best friend of the main character (in addition to his love interest).

 

2. As one of the most important characters in the show, Iris should be getting a fair amount of scenes and plotlines.

 

3. Iris has instead been marginalized and infantilized -- repeatedly lied to by her so-called best friend and her dad "for her own protection."

 

4. The writers have not spent much time as to what motivates Iris, or showing her as an independent character with her own hopes and dreams (at least not commensurate with her deserved prominence as top actress).

 

5. Even with Iris having life-changing developments happen -- the death of her fiance, the appearance of her mother, the news that her mother is dying, the news she has a brother/half-brother -- these things are largely glossed over. We don't get to see her full reaction to these things, nor do we get to see the other characters supporting her or interacting much with her about these things.

 

7. Given that the actress is black, and given that Hollywood has had what could charitably be called an uneven relationship with black actresses, there's some argument for the treatment of Iris being race-related.

 

8. With the advent of Patty, the writers have devoted a lot of time and energy to establishing her character.

 

9. That is not only more time than they have spent on Iris, but also time that could and arguably should be spent on Iris instead.

 

10. The character of Patty is Mary-Sueish and not that inherently interesting.

 

11. It seems strange that the third-billed actress is having more time and energy devoted to her than the top-billed one.

 

12. Given that Patty is played by a white actress, it suggests that the powers that be may be racially motivated in bringing her on.

 

Now I personally don't necessarily agree with all of the above. But it's certainly more complicated than "I want Barry and Iris to end up together." The above doesn't depend on a romance between Barry and Iris to be active.

[blugirlami21]

At this point I don't even care if Iris and Barry get together. My problem with Patty is she's sucking up Iris' screen time. And really just screen time in general. The writers have basically said she would be a new Felicity for Barry when she was first talked about which was annoying because also according to them he already had one of those in Iris.

Her attitude with Joe also bugs. Joe is not going to trust you because you became his partner yesterday. So pipe down, trust is earned and you are doing nothing to earn it.

We should see her in the same light as we did Eddie but I think the problem is Patty was created to be a love interest, Eddie was not.

[Marie F.]

I don't hate Patty, I just find her unnecessary. She adds nothing to the show. They at least made Linda a little more important, especially with her finding out Barry's secret and if they are going do her comic storyline. Patty is just there as a ship block.

Which is my main problem with her--not that she's blocking the Barry/Iris relationship but this is clearly her only purpose and they didn't even bother to give her her own personality--they just took one aspect of Barry's personality (his awkwardness), magnified it (Barry was never like that with Felicity or Linda or Iris), split it in half, and gave one half to her in lieu of her own personality.  I am also bothered by how she and the new legends show eat up some of the screen time of the core characters.

 

Patty has no personality of her own, Iris's personality is underdeveloped and a mystery because they mostly ignore her (though they are clearly trying to integrate her in the past two episodes), and Caitlin gets a new personality whenever Ronnie dies, comes back, goes away, comes back, dies again, Jay comes along, she meets Jax/Hewitt.  I'm not interested in Patty, but I wish the actress had more to do because there's clearly something to her. And people always complain about Panabacker's acting, but what is she supposed to do when Caitlin is so inconsistent and plot-driven?  None of the guys suffer from this.

 

Also, I hate when disinterest, dislike, or even hate for a female character to is regulated to just shippers being shippers.  It's one of the ways that people dismiss legitimate criticisms on Barry/Iris as a couple, or Barry/Caitlin, and now with Patty/Barry.  Fact of the matter is, we don't know who any of the women on this show are.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Wells, you didn't realize what Cisco was doing when he touched you? You know what his powers are so you should've known what he was doing.

 

Wells explicitly said something along the lines of "You're trying to get a vibe off me, aren't you?" and told him to stop touching him. So he clearly suspected Cisco of trying to read him.

[Sakura12]

If Wells had told them that Zoom killed his daughter or kidnapped his daughter, everyone would've understood him more. That secret was kept for their stupid secret reveal they love doing. We, the audience already knew Jessie was his daughter and being held by Zoom, there was no reason for Wells to keep that a secret. And we didn't need Cisco to vibe that out. Did they just want an excuse to use his powers in an episode where they weren't really needed? 

[CabotCove]

If Iris wasn't a part of the show - or had a very minor part in it - I'd have little to complain about Patty's usage.

 

Yeah I get that Iris being sidelined is a problem, but Im not seeing why Patty is getting all the blame. Patty will likely be gone by season's end, she is a short term problem. What about Caitlin, she is the one in the "OT3" Team Flash scenes and getting important scenes like being by Barry's bedside or whatever side. I think in terms of role she is becoming "The Felicity", the sidekick female the hero cannot do without. Linda even had more scenes and importance in this episode, she is a Sports reporter and they still found a way to make her relevant. Im beginning to think that this is the way they really intend to write a main love interest,  writing them as nothing but a trophy for the hero to win in the end. Which is just super sad. I think its a formula they are not willing to let go off, the sidekick female is always going to get more of the action while the female lead/comic love interest is reserved for the all important "endgame" romance. 

 

Patty may be gone soon and show would likely just replace that with countless Barry/Joe scenes pep talks or Barry/"insert guest star name here" relationship. 

 

Wells explicitly said something along the lines of "You're trying to get a vibe off me, aren't you?" and told him to stop touching him. So he clearly suspected Cisco of trying to read him.

 

He should have realised it the second time though, thought Cisco would be smarter to do something different but no he was even less smooth the second time. The Harry/Cisco scenes were hilarious though. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by WildcardC

[Xander]

It seems like most of the complaints in relation to Iris vs. Patty boil down to "Iris and Barry need to be together, because that's how it is in the comics."  And personally, I don't care.  This ISN'T the comics, they're under no obligation to do things 100% like the comics, nor should they in my opinion because that'd be boring.  Right now, I like Patty and her chemistry with Barry is just better than Iris (she works well as a friend/confident, not as a romantic interest).  So I'd prefer that they stick to this right now, as opposed to forcing Barry/Iris, for nostalgia's sake.

 

Now onto more important elements, WOW Zoom is a beast.  He pulled a Bane on Barry and crippled him, yikes.  Also, Barry telling Linda, and his reasoning for doing so, was surprisingly mature/reasonable, well-played writers, well-played.

Ditto.

 

I want them to use Iris better and find a creative way to integrate her into the plot but I also enjoy Patty and Barry together and want to see much more of it. Last year when Patty wasn't in the picture, Iris got screen time but she was still marginalized and had no POV. We can't put that all on Patty's existence. 

 

The Zoom parts were terrific and I'm really curious about how Barry and his pals will defeat him by season's end. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Xander

[CocoaGoddess]

It seems like most of the complaints in relation to Iris vs. Patty boil down to "Iris and Barry need to be together, because that's how it is in the comics."  And personally, I don't care.  This ISN'T the comics, they're under no obligation to do things 100% like the comics, nor should they in my opinion because that'd be boring.  Right now, I like Patty and her chemistry with Barry is just better than Iris (she works well as a friend/confident, not as a romantic interest).  So I'd prefer that they stick to this right now, as opposed to forcing Barry/Iris, for nostalgia's sake.

 

In this thread, I have not seen one person state this. The general consensus has been (and I certainly agree) that Patty is being more fleshed out, getting more screen time, and building more solid relationships with the main leads than Iris has had in two seasons. This is ridiculously unfair to fans of the show, the character of Iris, and Candace Patton. Fans didn't revolt when Linda was introduced, and the reaction and feedback to Linda's appearance and superhero status has been positive and well received. If Barry needs a romantic love interest, Linda would have been far more preferable and organic to the story, especially being a coworker and confidante of Iris.

 

This isn't about us shipping Allen/West. We aren't twelve year olds, most of us have been watching TV romances and plots play out on various programs for decades and we know how this works, and no one expects Iris and Barry to get married, have a bunch of superhero babies and live happily ever after for the remainder of the series. But we do expect for these showrunners to show the actress, the character, and the FANS some respect, and not push her to the side simply because they feel like they don't know how to "properly" write for a Black woman, they feel that White actresses are hotter/more relatable, etc. This attitude towards lead WOC is starting to be a disturbing trend, and we are not going to tolerate it. Sleepy Hollow did this and nearly killed their own show, which was just as popular and higher rated than The Flash. They'd better not think for a damn second that many of us won't simply walk away if we see racist/intolerant behavior displayed towards Patton on our television screens. 

[foreverevolving]

The Flash is not nearly as prevalent as Superman or Batman, plus there's the fact that Barry spent 20+ years as a dead man in the main comic books.  While they'll certainly use many elements from the comics I'd imagine that they'll have more freedom in turning things around.  Green Arrow's main love interest is Black Canary in the books but that's certainly no longer the case in the TV show (to general applause, too).

 

Now, whether or not they're using the characters they do have properly is another story altogether.  TV loves to take something that works once and copy it until it breaks, hence Patty trying to fill the Felicity Smoak role.  To be honest they should kill the romance altogether for a while and focus on the heroics but this is a CW show. 

 

Cisco's powers seem to be expanding.  Before he's effectively relived certain moments from the people he was vibing from but this time he saw a scene that Wells couldn't have seen.

In fact, in every live action incarnation of the GA character (for which there have only been two so far) she never ended up with BC character. on Smallville he ended up with Chloe (who some may refer to as Felicity's proto character), on Arrow it is very likely (know on wood) that Oliver endgame will be Felicity. Maybe that relationship just doesn't translate too well to live action- which I am not complaining.

 

Their excuse as to why Barry and Iris are not together is because Iris just lost Eddie and she needed to mourn. However Caitlin lost her HUSBAND and can move on to someone else in the same time period. If you are going to make excuses at least keep them consistent. I know people move on at different rates but since we never see Iris' POV I have no idea if she's still in mourning.

 

I get shows not wanting to put the "couple" together too soon. You know how to solve that? DON"T introduce them in the from the beginning! If they are both there then we have to watch dumb excuse after dumb excuse as to why they are not together. Introduce the love interest when you are ready to put them together.

 

I don't hate Patty, I just find her unnecessary. She adds nothing to the show. They at least made Linda a little more important, especially with her finding out Barry's secret and if they are going do her comic storyline. Patty is just there as a ship block.

Well I mean for caitlin this would be the second time she has lost Ronnie.. while it's not easy to lose a loved one, it's probably easier when it happens the second time around with the same man. it's sort of the feeling of: been there, done that.

[phoenics]

It seems like most of the complaints in relation to Iris vs. Patty boil down to "Iris and Barry need to be together, because that's how it is in the comics."  And personally, I don't care.

So odd, because that's NOT what anyone has said here - actually most of the complaints come down to Iris being marginalized and shoved into the corner while a GD guest star sucks up her screen time. Did I miss a post somewhere?

This ISN'T the comics, they're under no obligation to do things 100% like the comics, nor should they in my opinion because that'd be boring.  Right now, I like Patty and her chemistry with Barry is just better than Iris (she works well as a friend/confident, not as a romantic interest).  So I'd prefer that they stick to this right now, as opposed to forcing Barry/Iris, for nostalgia's sake.

Disagree about the Patty/Barry chemistry - but if you like them, great! However, the "Iris is only important in the comics and they can change that" isn't about nostalgia - it's about an entire flash family based on Barry/Iris. That's very hard to change - for both canonical, sensical, and also ethical reasons given the way they decided to cast Iris.

And Patty and Barry still haven't reached the chemistry levels that Iris and Barry/Flash had on that rooftop. They haven't reached the levels of the erased kiss Westallen had. I find their scenes (Batty) to be absolutely forced. In other threads here this season, others have also commented that the one time GG seemed to muster chemistry - real, sexual chemistry, was with Iris when he was wearing the Flash suit... most especially the scene on the rooftop.

I do think Barry is meant to be shown as looking "happy" with Patty. Iris was "happy" with Eddie. Patty still has similar dialogue to Eddie with Joe and the same awkwardness of thinking she's important just like Eddie had, lol. Even her "partner" lines feel similar to Eddie's - except she's getting more lines than Eddie, which irks me...

I wonder when Shantal has to bolt though - since she's already the lead in another show?

[benteen]

I think this show really struggles when it comes to writing female characters.  They can't seem to think of anything to do for Caitlin for example except write her being in another relationship.  I liked Patty in her intial apperance but now find her personality to be grating.  I like Linda although she has moved from love interest to victim...I'd love to see her become Doctor Light in her on right.  That would be great.  Iris, well...they've struggled with what to do with her as well.  But it seems like the female characters on The Flash are either love interests, victims or definded by their relationships.

[phoenics]

I think you are misreading the complaints in relation to Iris vs. Patty.

 

I will rephrase them as I understand them.

 

1. Candace Patton is supposed to be the lead actress in this show, and Iris is supposed to be the quasi-sister and best friend of the main character (in addition to his love interest).

 

2. As one of the most important characters in the show, Iris should be getting a fair amount of scenes and plotlines.

 

3. Iris has instead been marginalized and infantilized -- repeatedly lied to by her so-called best friend and her dad "for her own protection."

 

4. The writers have not spent much time as to what motivates Iris, or showing her as an independent character with her own hopes and dreams (at least not commensurate with her deserved prominence as top actress).

 

5. Even with Iris having life-changing developments happen -- the death of her fiance, the appearance of her mother, the news that her mother is dying, the news she has a brother/half-brother -- these things are largely glossed over. We don't get to see her full reaction to these things, nor do we get to see the other characters supporting her or interacting much with her about these things.

 

7. Given that the actress is black, and given that Hollywood has had what could charitably be called an uneven relationship with black actresses, there's some argument for the treatment of Iris being race-related.

 

8. With the advent of Patty, the writers have devoted a lot of time and energy to establishing her character.

 

9. That is not only more time than they have spent on Iris, but also time that could and arguably should be spent on Iris instead.

 

10. The character of Patty is Mary-Sueish and not that inherently interesting.

 

11. It seems strange that the third-billed actress is having more time and energy devoted to her than the top-billed one.

 

12. Given that Patty is played by a white actress, it suggests that the powers that be may be racially motivated in bringing her on.

 

Now I personally don't necessarily agree with all of the above. But it's certainly more complicated than "I want Barry and Iris to end up together." The above doesn't depend on a romance between Barry and Iris to be active.

Thank you for this. Even if you don't agree with what you've laid out here, thank you. At least you understand or "hear" the concerns we're having.

[nksarmi]

I guess if you are a fan of Iris or Candice, what they are doing to her annoys, but I have to say that coming at this from the point of view of someone who wasn't a fan of either - and who thought Barry was adorable with Felicity - I think what they are doing with Iris this season rocks.  Last season, I didn't care for her very much and the last thing in the world I wanted was for her and Barry to eventually get together.

 

This season?  I have enjoyed every. single. scene Iris has been in and absolutely LOVED her and Linda together. So while I understand people want to see her used more - at the very least, they quality of her scenes are out of the ballpark.  To me, they fixed her character and made me buy into the possibility that she and Barry might someday make a good pairing (something Arrow 100% failed to do with Laurel).  That's at least something, right?

 

I get the annoyance with Patty - her character DOES seem rather pointless.  And while I do think she and Barry are cute together at time, her over-the-top whatever they are trying to do with her is getting a bit old.  But I have to say that if it's a debate between leading actresses, I thought Caitlyn was who most people were talking about stealing the show from Iris.  We see Caitlyn all the time and I would have thought she was the lead actress if I didn't come to these boards and know better.