S17.E07: Patrimonial Burden

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Why are Liv and Amanda always so bitchy to my boyfriend Carisi? If they don't want him they can send him my way.

     

         Can we share him?

[Monkeybball]

CALLED IT THE MINUTE THAT KID PRIEST WALKED ONTO THE SCREEN! (okay i also went back and forth a few times....but DUH!!!!!)

[Zahdii]

OK, I admit I'm not particularly religious.  What is the deal with Immaculate Conception?  I always thought it was the Virgin Mary turning up pregnant anyway, and Joseph was the stand-up guy who believed her and they went away together to be the earth bound father and mother of Jesus.  

 

But I delved for 30 seconds into Google and looked up 'Immaculate Conception', and MARY is the one?  She was conceived of two earthly mortals and at the moment of conception was washed away of all sin, etc?

 

Why would Mary be the one washed of all sin, and not Jesus?  Is this why Catholics also pray to Mary?  Did being conceived in Mary automatically grant Jesus some sort of advanced status?  Like, Mary was conceived and immediately washed of all sin, but Jesus didn't have to be washed of sin because Mary didn't have any sin to pass on to him?

 

Cliff notes version requested, using plain words if you can.

[CelticBlackCat]

I've been riding the Carisi train since Day One so this ep made me love him even more. I never had any doubts about how he'd turn out to be a great character and actor (Peter Scanavino). I like how he's not drooling over Amanda who is physically speaking a hot chick, but treats her like she's his sister. He's acting like he's got a little niece or nephew on the way. He was just totally sweet in this ep, especially at Amanda's hospital bedside.

The Duggar-esque family drama was very well acted. The creepy factor was up from the intro, with the purity ball, and the creepy meter needle just keep moving to the right. I like the dysfunctional family situations most of all, as opposed to race relations and politics, and this dysfunctional family didn't disappoint in the "dys" department.

I'm a West Coaster, so no live thread for me.

Not looking forward to the Noahcentric Benoah-thon next week. For cripes sake! So, he finally gets kidnapped? Who woulda thunk that would happen on the Olivia Benson Hour?!?

Dodds Jr is annoying. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Or the acorn. He needs to stop acting like he's gonna boss The Boss around. Keep his lips zipped and follow directions.

Fin = perfect. Fin, Carisi & the state trooper cop stop scene was a great moment!

[slowpoked]

Dodds Jr is annoying. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Or the acorn. He needs to stop acting like he's gonna boss The Boss around. Keep his lips zipped and follow directions.

Hee, I love how Olivia smacked him down by saying "And second, I'm always right." Even though Benson can be annoying most of the time, I was like you go girl! And I also liked how Dodds Jr. just laughed it off and said "copy that Lieutenant", meaning he wasn't taking it seriously, or that he knows he's put in his position, rather than him throwing dagger looks at Liv and telling her I'm gonna go run off to Daddy and snitch on you.

[CelticBlackCat]

Please stop referring to the creepy baby daddy/attorney/evangelical clergyman as a Priest.  He is not a priest and they were calling him Pastor in the show.  Not trying to start a fight here, but calling all creepy clergymen priests is just a further condemnation of the Roman Catholic Church because of the past scandals, where other religions don't get touched by it.  There are child molesters and child rapists in every religious organization.

[CelticBlackCat]

double post deleted.

 

I guess I can take this opportunity to say I hope Murphy does make a comeback and is a participating father to his baby with Amanda!

Edited November 5, 2015 by CelticBlackCat

[CelticBlackCat]

OK, I admit I'm not particularly religious.  What is the deal with Immaculate Conception?  I always thought it was the Virgin Mary turning up pregnant anyway, and Joseph was the stand-up guy who believed her and they went away together to be the earth bound father and mother of Jesus.  

 

But I delved for 30 seconds into Google and looked up 'Immaculate Conception', and MARY is the one?  She was conceived of two earthly mortals and at the moment of conception was washed away of all sin, etc?

 

Why would Mary be the one washed of all sin, and not Jesus?  Is this why Catholics also pray to Mary?  Did being conceived in Mary automatically grant Jesus some sort of advanced status?  Like, Mary was conceived and immediately washed of all sin, but Jesus didn't have to be washed of sin because Mary didn't have any sin to pass on to him?

 

Cliff notes version requested, using plain words if you can.

 

 

Thanks for doing the research!  Yes, God had plans for Mary before anyone else knew about it.

Edited November 5, 2015 by CelticBlackCat

[Bananna]

This season has surprisingly solid, I groaned a little when I heard they were going to be doing a Duggar episode (despite the fact that I did enjoy their show in that bile fascination sense). But I enjoyed it, the family was well acted, the mother did a good Michelle Duggar, until the end where she became a better mother than J'Chelle herself and the girl was convincing as well. They really underused Christopher Sieber, I agree that he seemed to spend most of his time hanging around like a spare part. I called, like most people, that it was the paedophile priest, because they haven't done that storyline in a while.

 

Carisi was seriously the best thing about the episode imo, and it more than made up for the fact that there was no Barba in this episode. For me, the jury's still out on Dodds Jr, I didn't find him that annoying but I don't really know what to think of him at the moment. I seriously hope that Benoah drama was being overplayed, because I sense a correlation beteween little Benoah scenes and an enjoyable episode.

[TV-Lurker]

Were the Script and the Location/Time Stamps Transition Cards out of sync?

 

The script kept referencing that Lane was 10-12 weeks pregnant and they were doing work in East Harlem in July when they think she got pregnant.

 

Yet the Date Stamps on the Transition Cards were saying Sept 8th and Sept 10th.  Ten to 12 week would put the conception date in June.

 

Whoever played the father looked like he could play Mark Cuban in a biopic.

[Gigi43]

OK, I admit I'm not particularly religious.  What is the deal with Immaculate Conception?  I always thought it was the Virgin Mary turning up pregnant anyway, and Joseph was the stand-up guy who believed her and they went away together to be the earth bound father and mother of Jesus.  

 

But I delved for 30 seconds into Google and looked up 'Immaculate Conception', and MARY is the one?  She was conceived of two earthly mortals and at the moment of conception was washed away of all sin, etc?

 

Why would Mary be the one washed of all sin, and not Jesus?  Is this why Catholics also pray to Mary?  Did being conceived in Mary automatically grant Jesus some sort of advanced status?  Like, Mary was conceived and immediately washed of all sin, but Jesus didn't have to be washed of sin because Mary didn't have any sin to pass on to him?

 

Cliff notes version requested, using plain words if you can.

 

Mary being born without sin is what made her worthy of being the mother of Jesus. I've questioned why Jesus wasn't born without original sin too, but God apparently always intended for him to die for all the sins of everyone, so maybe it didn't matter... This is one reason why I rarely go to Church as an adult... But, Catholics even celebrate Immaculate Conception, it's December 8th. That's what annoys me so much about the misconception (pun not entirely intended)... it's not like we hide what it is!

[Absolom]

I have to echo an evangelical pastor is not a priest and would be insulted to be called a priest. 

[mimionthebeach]

Along with making the religious leader the raping creep a la Gothard, did they work in a little wink at the Palins by having the youngest son turn out to be the eldest daughter's child?

The Bakers were ticking all the dysfunctional Duggar boxes (DH was totally freaked that the reality was actually ickier than the depiction) until the end, when the mother cared.

[atir]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who was getting Palin family vibes. Hell, the kids' names were straight out of Palin familia:

Twig, (?), Timber etc.

[BatmanBeatles]

The end made me think of A series Of Unfortunate Events when Count Olaf tried to marry Violet who was the same age as Lane.

 

 

And that new guy hasn't taken Criminology 101?  He literally doesn't know the basic tenet that "Stranger Danger" that people have been talking about for the past century or so is mostly a myth?  That 90% of sexual assaults are by people that the victim already knows?  He doesn't fucking know that?  You expect me to believe this shit?

I think they had him say that for the audiences benefit. Sort of a hidden public service announcement.

Edited November 5, 2015 by BatmanBeatles

[wknt3]

 

And that new guy hasn't taken Criminology 101?  He literally doesn't know the basic tenet that "Stranger Danger" that people have been talking about for the past century or so is mostly a myth?  That 90% of sexual assaults are by people that the victim already knows?  He doesn't fucking know that?  You expect me to believe this shit?

 

I think they had him say that for the audiences benefit. Sort of a hidden public service announcement.

 

Yeah it's pretty common on SVU and rather annoying because it ends up making every new squad member look like an idiot. We just went through this with Carisi. And now it's Dodds turn. I really wish they'd find a new way, but I guess they figure that it's worked for 17 seasons so far...

[EarlGreyTea]

I haven't watched since Amaro jumped ship (forever bitter that both he and Cassidy are off the show), but this was pretty good. I love Christopher Sieber (played Pa Baker) and I'm happy he got such a high-profile TV gig. Wish he'd been given a bit more to do.

 

The actress who played Michelle Duggar - er, Mrs. Baker - had the voice down pat, even though it was more subtle than Michelle's real voice is. Which goes to show even TV finds her voice too unbearable. I also noticed one of the Baker girls had the curly ramen noodle hair that the Duggar girls once had, which was a nice touch.

 

I like when the ripped from the headlines episodes have the characters turn out to be decent (relatively speaking) people in the end, much more so than their real life counterparts. It really highlights how shitty the Duggar parents are, and what slaves they are to the almighty dollar. Can you imagine them voluntarily taking themselves off TV for the sake of their family? Me neither.

 

New guy is unbearably obnoxious. I miss Amaro, if only for the eye candy.

Edited November 6, 2015 by EarlGreyTea

[GarnetGirl]

Things that annoyed me:

Everyone was telling Dodds that "the Lt. is always right." but Olivia is wrong all the time. She was even wrong in this episode thinking it was the camera man, then the brother, then the father before realizing it was the pastor. I like Olivia better when she is not on a pedestal. 

 

Dodds- You are a grown man. Stop being a weenie who talks about your dad all the time.

 

As always, no Barba, no bueno.

 

Things I loved:

 

Carisi. Never change.

[doodlebug]

Why would Mary be the one washed of all sin, and not Jesus?  Is this why Catholics also pray to Mary?  Did being conceived in Mary automatically grant Jesus some sort of advanced status?  Like, Mary was conceived and immediately washed of all sin, but Jesus didn't have to be washed of sin because Mary didn't have any sin to pass on to him?

Lifetime practicing Catholic here; here's my take: yes, The Immaculate Conception refers to the fact that Mary was born without original sin.  Catholics believe we are all born with a stain on our soul (not literally) caused by The Original Sin: Adam, Eve, the garden, the serpent and the apple.  Our original sin is washed away at Baptism (one of the reasons Catholics baptize babies).  Since Mary was a Jew and obviously never baptized (since it hadn't even been invented yet), the early Church surmised that God created her without original sin since she couldn't have been worthy of carrying the Christ in her womb if she'd been tainted with it.  So, she must've never had it in the first place making her The Immaculate Conception, the only human ever born without the stain of original sin.  The fact that Mary got pregnant while still a virgin is a whole 'nother thing and not at all related to The Immaculate Conception.

 

As for Catholics praying to Mary; there is a general Catholic tenet that we should relate to the saints (ie humans who lived good lives and ended up in heaven) and aspire to be like them.  And God is particularly fond of the saints in heaven because, after all, they are there because they were devoted to Him. Mary is a saint since she's a human being who died and went to heaven (won't get into the Assumption).  Since she also got to be God's earthly Mama, she is especially revered and close to Him.  Catholics pray asking saints to intercede on their behalf for special intentions.  Hence, there are saints who are supposed to be especially useful for stuff like cancer or pregnancy or animals, the poor.  This is usually based on their earthly lives and how they lived them.  In Mary's case, she's kinda all purpose, she is Queen of Heaven, per the Catholics because above all others, she was chosen as the vessel to bring salvation to the world.  However, even Mary cannot perform miracles or answer prayers on her own; she is a go-between for God and humanity.  Sorta like using a family member to ask a favor of someone they know to help you out.

[Muffyn]

Carisi absolutely killed it last night.  I like this character more and more.  (I am also very happy to be free of Amaro.  I hated both the character and the actor.)

 

I found the Duggaresque family quite on point, covering up their son's crimes, considering their son more important than their daughters, the weird voice for the mother.  Of course, the very fact that the parents seemed to sincerely care about their children separated them from the real Duggars.  I cannot imagine Michelle running to her child's side if she had passed out.

 

Pervy pastor seemed pretty obvious.  Whenever they would say pastor I would think of Real Housewives of the OC in which Tamra was recently baptized.  She kept pronouncing pastor as pasture.  So he's a pervy pasture.   

[Kel Varnsen]

I found the Duggaresque family quite on point, covering up their son's crimes, considering their son more important than their daughters, the weird voice for the mother.  Of course, the very fact that the parents seemed to sincerely care about their children separated them from the real Duggars.  I cannot imagine Michelle running to her child's side if she had passed out.

 

So are we going to get a follow up Duggaresque episode with the married kid from the religious family and the whole Ashley Madison thing? It would be kind of funny if they used the same family.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Higher The Gorge, The Closer To God
SVU's take on the Duggars is revolting, but surprisingly well-built and effective.

[Dale Griffin]

What the fuck was that.  That was one of the most disjointed, worst written, worst acted episodes I've ever seen.  What a mess.  All the action happened in the last 5 minutes and at that point we're expected to believe:  Mama Bear is going all HAM in on the pastor immediately, the daughter does a 180 on the pastor immediately (who 5 minutes ago she was in love with and wanted to marry), and the father just stands there with the biggest DUH look on his face, literally not reacting, emoting, or saying ANYTHING.  God, I'm pissed

 

And that new guy hasn't taken Criminology 101?  He literally doesn't know the basic tenet that "Stranger Danger" that people have been talking about for the past century or so is mostly a myth?  That 90% of sexual assaults are by people that the victim already knows?  He doesn't fucking know that?  You expect me to believe this shit?  

 

Seriously that was awful. I think the writers completely forgot the father existed. The poor actor had to stand around being an accessory to a scene that he should have had greater prominence. He was ready to beat down the camera guy but couldn't do more but hold his wife's shoulders in this scene. But I did hit floor laughing when Olivia uttered the phrase about his wife cheating on him, and the actor nearly did a sista neck roll with a "say what" and glared at Olivia. He looked so much like Barba with that look

Different strokes, I guess.  I liked the episode just fine.  It stayed on sex crimes the whole way through and didn't turn into Something Else like seasons nine through twelve often did.  And I thought the acting was just fine, and there was nothing "disjointed" about it.  It had a clear, thorough plotline that was followed through from beginning to end.

 

I still like Dodds.  I don't think he did anything wrong.  I just think he's still learning the hard way that SVU is unlike the other departments he'd worked in.  He's feeling how different it is just the way Amaro and Carisi did when they first came in.

 

Speaking of Carisi . . . I'm sorry, people, but if I feel like I'm being told to like a character just because everyone else is kissing his ass and slobbering all over every.  Single.  Thing.  Ever.  Done.  By him, but not getting a chance to decide for myself . . . then I get tempted to go the other way and dislike or even hate him on principle.  So . . . just saying.  Also, I don't like how they're trying to place him as Rollins's bestie.  Fin should always be in that spot, not this new guy who just showed up last season.

 

That said, I'll repeat it was another solid episode.

[Princess Lucky]

Speaking of Carisi . . . I'm sorry, people, but if I feel like I'm being told to like a character just because everyone else is kissing his ass and slobbering all over every.  Single.  Thing.  Ever.  Done.  By him, but not getting a chance to decide for myself . . . then I get tempted to go the other way and dislike or even hate him on principle.  So . . . just saying.  Also, I don't like how they're trying to place him as Rollins's bestie.  Fin should always be in that spot, not this new guy who just showed up last season.

 

Taking this to the Carisi thread.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Princess Lucky

[atir]

Apropos of nothing, why would a protestant minister be disparaged by being called a priest?

I don't think pastor perv should have been addressed as "pastor." Pastor denotes someone who is a spiritual leader (catholic or protestant) in a geographical area and has a building to say mass or hold services in. A pastor doesn't flit around from NYC to Whack-a-do-ville PA.

[Absolom]

I said evangelcial (or fundie maybe in this case) which is not the same as generalized protestant.  Many of the very conservative types are anti-Catholic (read Ben Seewald) and thus very much against being referenced the same as a Catholic pastor would be. 

[CelticBlackCat]

Different strokes, I guess.  I liked the episode just fine.  It stayed on sex crimes the whole way through and didn't turn into Something Else like seasons nine through twelve often did.  And I thought the acting was just fine, and there was nothing "disjointed" about it.  It had a clear, thorough plotline that was followed through from beginning to end.

 

I still like Dodds.  I don't think he did anything wrong.  I just think he's still learning the hard way that SVU is unlike the other departments he'd worked in.  He's feeling how different it is just the way Amaro and Carisi did when they first came in.

 

Speaking of Carisi . . . I'm sorry, people, but if I feel like I'm being told to like a character just because everyone else is kissing his ass and slobbering all over every.  Single.  Thing.  Ever.  Done.  By him, but not getting a chance to decide for myself . . . then I get tempted to go the other way and dislike or even hate him on principle.  So . . . just saying.  Also, I don't like how they're trying to place him as Rollins's bestie.  Fin should always be in that spot, not this new guy who just showed up last season.

 

That said, I'll repeat it was another solid episode.

I'm a Carisi fan and have no problem with those who don't feel the same way.  I'm like you in that if I'm told to like or love something or someone, I want to decide for myself.  Maybe Carisi will grow on you, maybe you'll wind up despising him.  As for being Rollins' bestie, I think Fin may have backed off that because he was trying to counsel Amanda and she wasn't really listening, just continuing on her merry way of destructive behaviors.

[YoSaffBridge]

Speaking of purity balls, even though they're super gross: There is a fantastic podcast called The Dollop that deals in the topic. I laughed myself into a tremendous coughing fit listening to it, and it doesn't shy away from the giantly fucked up connotations.

I'm a sucker for these kinds of episodes. I don't watch the Duggar's show, but I've observed the shitshow with a level of amusement that is probably unbecoming.

[atir]

I said evangelcial (or fundie maybe in this case) which is not the same as generalized protestant.  Many of the very conservative types are anti-Catholic (read Ben Seewald) and thus very much against being referenced the same as a Catholic pastor would be.

Yay, i don't know the difference between fundi, evangelical & generalized protestant! I don't know who Ben Seewald is either. But i think I'm understanding what you mean about anti-catholic. That helps, so thank you for that.

[minamurray78]

Well, after 17 seasons, I can't remember a more gag-inducing intro than the one in this episode. Every single second of it was cringeworthy: the daughter getting a ring from the father, mom talking about the kids, the older sister remembering her ball, dad talking about guarding her daughters' body's purity (!!). How are virtue balls a thing? As a foreigner, I'd never heard about them, the whole thing is just flabbergasting.

Gotta give it to the writers though: in an episode with no crude descriptions of sexual abuse or injuries, they had me going "Imma throw up" every 3 minutes.

 

Still, I really liked the episode, although I realized what I enjoyed the most where the detectives' interaction: nobody was personally involved, or making it about themselves, even Amanda owning up to binge-watching the Baker's show due to "desk duty", I don't know, I just like it when the team seems pretty well oiled.

I agree about  Dodds too: new character's used as an exposition fairy, as if most of the shows' audience didn't already know this stuff. He has to get things explained to him that make me go "how are you a detective? weren't you supposed to be a cop first?".

 

I spend the last few minutes amused with Mariska Hargitay's faces. First, when the parents tell her the Pastor will make a wonderful son-in-law, she looks at them as if they had revealed themselves to be two-headed aliens. And when the Pastor tells the mother she can't say no to her husband, her "patriarch", Liv turns to stare at him and looks about ready to vomit nuclear waste on his face.

All in all, just glad the parents weren't complete creeps. Although, it kinda bugs that after believing his son fathered a child with the older sister, they just let him back as if it were nothing? Clearly, the story needed another baby to make the dna test, since the amnio was a no go, but then they sorta gloss over the implications. We don't know what Summer thinks or how she feels knowing her little sister went through the same thing; she would have been the first one to realize who abused Lane, etc... can´t have it all.

[FozzyBear]

Yay, i don't know the difference between fundi, evangelical & generalized protestant! I don't know who Ben Seewald is either. But i think I'm understanding what you mean about anti-catholic. That helps, so thank you for that.

Well in a super general sense, Protestant is a Christian who isn't Catholic (gets a little sticky with Orthdox churches). Evangelical usually refers to churches that place an emphasizes on evangelizing, so churches that are actively trying to convert non-believers and so on. Fundamentalist generally refers to churches who claim to use a literal interpretation of the bible (I say claim because I don't even think a literal interpretation of the bible is possible, but whatever). I'm episcopalian so I'm sort of nominally Protestant, but not evangelical or fundamental. The church being described on the show is an fundamentalist, evangelical Protestant church.

[Marigny]

I wonder if accusing the cameraman was a shout-out to the fact that someone of the gosselin tv crew has been accused of child porn.

My guess is that it was also a way to show just how much the cameramen see that never airs and is still lying around somewhere. I'm willing to bet Mr. Jim (I think that's his name) has a whole lot of unaired Duggar footage that could be used in court for a multitude of charges. 

[Iguessnot]

Well, after 17 seasons, I can't remember a more gag-inducing intro than the one in this episode. Every single second of it was cringeworthy: the daughter getting a ring from the father, mom talking about the kids, the older sister remembering her ball, dad talking about guarding her daughters' body's purity (!!). How are virtue balls a thing? As a foreigner, I'd never heard about them, the whole thing is just flabbergasting.

Gotta give it to the writers though: in an episode with no crude descriptions of sexual abuse or injuries, they had me going "Imma throw up" every 3 minutes.

 

Still, I really liked the episode, although I realized what I enjoyed the most where the detectives' interaction: nobody was personally involved, or making it about themselves, even Amanda owning up to binge-watching the Baker's show due to "desk duty", I don't know, I just like it when the team seems pretty well oiled.

I agree about  Dodds too: new character's used as an exposition fairy, as if most of the shows' audience didn't already know this stuff. He has to get things explained to him that make me go "how are you a detective? weren't you supposed to be a cop first?".

 

I spend the last few minutes amused with Mariska Hargitay's faces. First, when the parents tell her the Pastor will make a wonderful son-in-law, she looks at them as if they had revealed themselves to be two-headed aliens. And when the Pastor tells the mother she can't say no to her husband, her "patriarch", Liv turns to stare at him and looks about ready to vomit nuclear waste on his face.

All in all, just glad the parents weren't complete creeps. Although, it kinda bugs that after believing his son fathered a child with the older sister, they just let him back as if it were nothing? Clearly, the story needed another baby to make the dna test, since the amnio was a no go, but then they sorta gloss over the implications. We don't know what Summer thinks or how she feels knowing her little sister went through the same thing; she would have been the first one to realize who abused Lane, etc... can´t have it all.

I myself have only heard about purity balls within the last decade or so, but it's not a mainstream thing. I don't know if what SVU aired is representative of the practice, but it's is totally screwed up to mimic a wedding but substitute your father.

[Snookums]

(and you'd think Carisi would be totally obvious if he had a crush, no?)

 

 

Oh, totes magotes. He'd be the equivalent of the old joke about the elephant painting his toenails red so he could hide in the strawberry patch. If he crushed Amanda he'd be ten times more Carisi--tripping, stuttering, flailing around like Bambi on an ice rink. I think he and Amanda just have this great work friendship and he's a caring person in general.

 

Amanda finally not being able to maintain her trained-into-her-since-birth-by-her-horrid-horrid-family responsible/I got this/everything's cool facade finally crashed but it was with somebody she knew she could trust and not have to maintain her "I can be supercompetent Amanda not just a hot mess" thing with. And who wouldn't be terrified at such a huge life change? 

 

And as for the ep itself, I think it did a good job pointing out the  various weaknesses and holes in the "branded" Christianity the Dodds/Duggars practice, but it didn't do so by making them look foolish for their Christianity. Creepy? Naive? Too closed-ranks for their own good? Wrong headed to the point of criminality in protecting their family? You bet. But no more so than in tons and tons of previous episodes showing people from all classes and religions. The pastor was a predator because he was a predator, not because he was a pastor. He was rightly reviled by everybody he assumed would protect him because he figured they didn't really care about their religion. Just their show and their brand and their town and their reputations. I was especially glad to see the judge not only back away from him but physically move to block Lane (although why he okayed that grossness in the first place is beyond me. I assume Pastor Slimeball snowed him with the same marriage in name only/save the poor little thing's reputation crap he gave the parents.)

 

Other things I liked: Amanda's binge watching of the show (She's the new Fin! "Desk Duty!" "Don't look at me, I just know stuff!") 

 

The local cop doing a 180 from what we were set up to expect: he was as fed up with this crap as everybody else.

[Snookums]

OK, I admit I'm not particularly religious.  What is the deal with Immaculate Conception?  I always thought it was the Virgin Mary turning up pregnant anyway, and Joseph was the stand-up guy who believed her and they went away together to be the earth bound father and mother of Jesus. 

But I delved for 30 seconds into Google and looked up 'Immaculate Conception', and MARY is the one?  She was conceived of two earthly mortals and at the moment of conception was washed away of all sin, etc?

Why would Mary be the one washed of all sin, and not Jesus?  Is this why Catholics also pray to Mary?  Did being conceived in Mary automatically grant Jesus some sort of advanced status?  Like, Mary was conceived and immediately washed of all sin, but Jesus didn't have to be washed of sin because Mary didn't have any sin to pass on to him?

Cliff notes version requested, using plain words if you can.

 

 

 

Here's the basic outline: Mary was the daughter of St. Anne. Anne was a married woman when she conceived Mary (thus, not a virgin) but Mary was conceived in her womb by the Holy Spirit, not her husband. Thus, the Immaculate Conception; Mary was not born of an egg and sperm meeting from sexual intercourse.

 

Mary was visited by Gabriel and told that she was chosen to be the bearer of the Lord. Mary consented to this, although she said she did not understand how this could be, since she was a virgin "and knew not man." She was told that all things are possible with God and is filled with the Holy Spirit, conceiving Jesus Christ in her womb without knowing sexual intercourse with any man, including her intended, Joseph.

 

When Joseph found out Mary was pregnant, he had decided to "put her away privately"--that is, divorce her/call off the betrothal (the woman was considered the "property" of the husband as soon as the betrothal was announced, before any ceremony had been performed) within the families, rather than publicly shame her/ hold her up for being stoned to death. Gabriel visited Joseph in a dream and told him that Mary was chosen by the Lord, as was he to protect them, and he need not fear for his name or family line (both HUGELY IMPORTANT in their community) and that God wanted him to marry Mary.

 

Joseph married Mary and took her into his home and under his protection, but "knew her not" until the birth of Jesus--he did not have sexual intercourse with her. Thus, Jesus was the Virgin Birth in that Mary was virgin, untouched by man, when she bore him.

[atir]

Snookums, i had 11 yrs of parochial school& never heard that story about Anne. As far as we were taught, Anne had sex with MrAnne. But as others posted, Mary was conceived without original sin. Thus, her immaculate conception.

ETA: are there purity balls for mothers& sons?

Edited November 7, 2015 by atir

[BatmanBeatles]

According to the Duggar girls, they have their hair wavy because their dad likes it that way. I had a flashback to that when Lane asked her sisters if dad will like her hair for the Purity Ball.

[Snookums]

Atir, yep, you got it. Anne was married and not a virgin, so Mary was not the Virgin Birth. She was conceived in Anne's womb by the Holy Spirit and not through sexual intercourse, i.e., "immaculately."

[CelticBlackCat]

Mr. Anne is in fact Saint Joachim.  This is according to Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican traditions.  Joachim and Anne first appear in the Gospel of James.  (James is the brother of Jesus.)  Not all Christian religions believe this though, so this shows just one of many reasons there are many denominations and interpretations of the Holy Bible.

 

I am happy that this thread is discussing religion in an educational manner, rather than turning into an ugly mess which so often happens on other forums.  :)

 

I guess the judge willing to marry 14-year-old Lane to creepy pastor was going by the letter of the law, i.e., parental consent and Lane just turned 14 so it was the age of consent.  With Baby on the way, he might have thought it would be the best thing, and probably did buy into creepy pastor's BS.

 

Purity balls for mothers and sons?  Nah, according to the interwebs there is something called an Integrity Ball.

 

I've gotta say that this Purity Ball thing (to anyone not living in the US) is NOT the norm for American Christians.  And as you can tell from the other posters here, we think it's creepy and incestuous and weird.

[BatmanBeatles]

There was even a three tiered cake with a father-daughter cake topper. Ick!

[atir]

Snnokums, that's not what I said at all.

[Save Yourself]

Snnokums, that's not what I said at all.

Yes Snookums, I'm not quite where you would have learnt this? The Catholic teachings are very clear, Mary was born to Anne in the normal biological way (ovum and sperm fusing) and at the moment of her conception God absolved her of Original Sin. Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit. I've looked in a quite a few different places and I couldn't find a single religious faction that teaches that Mary herself was also conceived by the Holy Spirit.

[Jynnan tonnix]

Not to derail this into a religious topic, but I have never heard this teaching either. Besides, given the "trinity", wouldn't a child conceived through the holy spirit be a sort of half-sibling to Jesus (god's only-begotten...though maybe daughters don't count) which would raise the Bible story to a new level of squickiness)?

[Save Yourself]

Not to derail this into a religious topic, but I have never heard this teaching either. Besides, given the "trinity", wouldn't a child conceived through the holy spirit be a sort of half-sibling to Jesus (god's only-begotten...though maybe daughters don't count) which would raise the Bible story to a new level of squickiness)?

Good point! So Anne and the Holy Spirit would produce Mary; Mary and the Holy Spirit (her father in this soap opera scenario) would produce Mary's son *and* brother Jesus. I have a headache now trying to work out the Holy Spirit's family tree.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Save Yourself

[CleoCaesar]

I think they had him say that for the audiences benefit. Sort of a hidden public service announcement.

 

I hate it when SVU does this. It makes the writing so clunky. Like, they're professionals and should not be explaining Rape 101 to each other.

 

 

Can Carisi be any more sexy and adorable? I love when he interacts with kids.

 

I think he hit maximum sexy adorableness in this episode. I can't believe Carisi is my new SVU boyfriend (well, in addition to Barba) - when he was introduced with that hideous pornstache and terrible hair, I thought he'd be just an annoyance.

 

 

Can we have some episodes that are about Carisi and Barba? Maybe a spin off? Law & Order: Sexy Waistcoats Unit?

 

I'd watch that.

[Snookums]

I honestly don't remember where I came by this: it was a very long time ago, I know that, but bow to greater knowledge. The main point stands, though: Mary is the Immaculate Conception, Jesus the Virgin Birth.

[slowpoked]

I didn't catch the first 10-15 minutes of this episode and just caught it on On Demand, so I didn't see the whole ceremony thing the first time. Now that I've seen it, eewwwwwwwww.....not just for the "concept" of fathers protecting their daughters, but of the Pastor officiating the whole ceremony itself. I dunno how he could say "Lane, you promise to stay pure and have no relations with a man until you're married, etc..." when he was having sex with this little kid. But I guess that's why he's a sleazeball to the highest degree.

[LeGrandElephant]

Ripped from the Duggars headlines - but they left out arguably one of the darkest parts of the Duggars, which is how they "blanket train" their babies. Its a great way to raise compliant obedient children who will be perfect targets for further abuse. 

[LeGrandElephant]

The fact that Mary got pregnant while still a virgin is a whole 'nother thing and not at all related to The Immaculate Conception.

 

I knew this, but I can see why its easy to mix up. So, is there a good name for the part where Mary got pregnant without having sex? People obviously want to refer to that way more often than they want to refer to Mary being born without original sin. 

[shapeshifter]

Dodds- You are a grown man. Stop being a weenie who talks about your dad all the time.

I missed the episode(s) where Dodds was introduced because I was staying with my elderly mother after the recent death of my father. Dodds' father quotes are not unlike what I find myself doing lately when it seems relevant. So I keep wondering: Did Dodds' father die recently, and was his father a cop?