S31.E07: Play To Win

[kikaha]

 

Why didn't Wentworth even consider using her idol to save Kass and get rid of a strong player like Jeremy and Savage? I know it's early but how great would that be?

 

Kelley is playing a pretty UTR game.  Making a move like that would bring her front and center.  It would not cement her place in a strong alliance, and would also leave her defenseless, after she had just outed herself. 

 

So IMO she did the right thing. 

[Skeeter22]

Wentworth said on Twitter that she voted with the majority because even if Kass had survived the vote, they would still be the minority. She also said that she didn't want Kass to go because she was one of her favorite people on the island.

I think it's easy to understand how Kass, Ciera, and Abi ended up on the bottom. Jeremy's plan was to create a meatshield alliance, so he was always going to keep alphas like Joe and Savage. Tasha and Kimmi both went into the game with the idea that they wanted to make alliances with strong men. None of them were ever interested in working with a group of women.

[ProfCrash]

I don't think Kelley is playing an UTR game. She came from the original Ta Kao and was in the minority in her new tribe and her old tribe mate was not aligned with her. She worked to throw Terry under the bus and establish positive relationships with the original Bayons on her new tribe.

 

She got lucky because she ended up with a good number of the Original Bayon lower tier members, in Kass and Ciera. Keith was on the bottom of the Alpha alliance, he was there because of Jeremy and as a number but was not a shot caller. This allowed Kelley to remain safe through one vote, if needed, because Terry would be the person voted out. I actually think that Kass and Ciera would have kept Kelley over Keith if needed.

 

The second switch put Kelley in a tough situation because she was the only original Ta Kao member on the tribe. She had done a good job with her second tribe because Joe was looking to protect Kelley.

 

Her good social play has put her in a position where she is probably safe for at least two more votes, Ciera and Abi are more likely to go before Kelley. Then Kelley has the idol so she is safe for at least three votes.

 

The real problem is the Alpha alliance which needs to be broken up. Andrew, Joe, Jeremy and Tasha are a dangerous foursome. Kimmi sees herself as allied with Jeremy which makes a nice little fivesome. Kelley needs to find, and maintain, six votes.

 

Who do you trust? Ciera and Abi are too loud to really put your faith in. Abi has been loyal to no one.

 

So Kelley has Kelly, who is not playing the game, Spencer who is doing exactly what she is doing, Stephen and Keith. That gives them five but I am not sure anyone really trusts Stephen and I really don't relish the idea of trying to plot anything long term with Keith.

 

Kelley and Spencer have played a good social game that has allowed them to put themselves in a good place for at least two votes. Possibly three if people decide that Kelly is simply too fluid. Then Keeley and Spencer have put themselves in position to be useful votes for when the Alphas start to target each other.

 

So good social maneuvering but I am not sure I would call it under the radar. In fact, I think most everyone on the beach realizes what they are doing and are willingly allowing it to happen because they think they will benefit from their votes when they are needed.

[kikaha]

ProfC: to me, Kelley is operating quietly.  She, e.g., did not jump into the fray with Ciera and Kass, to make wild accusations in front of everyone; and she was subtly throwing Terry under the bus.  Maybe UTR is not the right term.  I just think she easily moves from one alliance to another, as the need arises, which it has more than once now in this game of constant shuffles.  Unlke Ciera, she does not Russell feathers.  She seems to know how not to self-destruct, which I'm coming to believe is one of the most important qualities of all in Survivor.   

 

I agree completely with you that she is in great shape, for the reasons you gave, so long as she is not tainted by her alliance with Kass and Ciera.  (I doubt she is tainted.)  From what I've seen so far of her, I would be quite happy if she wins.  

[needschocolate]

I think the reason you get rid of a Kas or Abi with their unpredictability and chaos-for chaos'-sake is like playing poker.  Not because they're as smart as they think they are, but because you'd rather play against another card player than against a drunk 5-year-old with a chainsaw.

 

Even when you are sure you will win the money sitting next to these 5 year olds? Lets not forget, for us it's entertainment, for the actual players it's about real life and the chance to win 1 million dollars that will change their life forever.

 

I think poker makes for a bad analogy. In poker you are always playing against the other players, but in Survivor, you have to play with some of them - you have to have an alliance you can trust. Someone who will turn on you for any perceived wrongdoing and someone who takes joy in creating chaos are not good people to be allied with.  Sure, sitting next to Abi or Kass or both at the FTC would be great, but getting there with them is very difficult.  Neither can be trusted.  

 

If you have enough emotional energy and an extreme amount of patience, you may be able to coddle Abi for three weeks at keep her your ally. But doing so includes making sure that she thinks she is in charge and that none of the rest of your alliance does anything to offend her.  No one has been able to keep Abi as an ally for more than a vote or two.  However, I wouldn't be surprised to see Abi sitting at FTC.  Everyone keeps her in as a goat, does their best not to offend her, and then, when they get close to the end, try to become her ally.

 

Kass is a different story.  You can probably get a feeling for whether Abi is with you or against you, but you never know with Kass.  And she may go against you, even if most people would agree that she would be better off staying with you.  Her motives aren't predictable.

[Oscirus]

I don't see the alphas as allied. Jeremy and Andrew didn't automatically count Joe as one of their votes and Jeremy hinted at wanting to go to the end with Stephen.  For Jeremy, those guys are just shields to be used to cast off as needed. Hell even Joe seems to be building his own alliances away from the Alphas. The only person really reliant on the so called broliance is Andrew.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Oscirus

[ProfCrash]

If Jeremy goes to the end with Stephen it is because Jeremy sees Stephen is a goat or at least someone who is really easy to beat. Stephen has not been shown to do anything that might indicate that he would get peoples votes at tribal. He sucks at challenges, cannot open a coconut or a snail, and his own alliance ignores him when making decisions about who to vote out. That screams "take me to the final so you can win lots of money."

[KimberStormer]

I found the analogy really poor and really reaching that the original poster seemed to suggest that Jeremy and Kass are equally arrogant / pushy players in this game but the language viewers use about Kass is different.  No, I argue that Jeremy and Kass act completely differently in this game.  Now the argument shifts to, but  I know that Jeremy's really arrogant in his head ; okay!?  You just don't see any evidence of it!  Therefore if you like Jeremy and hate Kass you're sexist!  

 

Is that my argument?  Have I shifted?  I like Jeremy and hate Kass myself. 

 

Philip was in Rob's alliance since day one.

 

Philip was actually in the anti-Rob trio at the beginning (mostly because he was clueless and none of the cool kids on Rob's side wanted to work with him).  Rob saw a prime goat in the making and drew him in specifically to Rob himself and not the rest of his alliance.

 

But certainly Kass is nothing like Philip, and though a few people have apparently thought Abi is, she isn't either.  I don't think there's any Philips on this island.  If you're looking for a goat you'll have to look in a different direction (like Stephen, per ProfCrash.)

 

I don't think Kelley is playing an UTR game. She came from the original Ta Kao and was in the minority in her new tribe and her old tribe mate was not aligned with her. She worked to throw Terry under the bus and establish positive relationships with the original Bayons on her new tribe.

 

So good social maneuvering but I am not sure I would call it under the radar. In fact, I think most everyone on the beach realizes what they are doing and are willingly allowing it to happen because they think they will benefit from their votes when they are needed.

 

I would still call that under-the-radar, just very good under-the-radar.  She's playing without drawing attention or heat.  UTR doesn't need to mean passively sitting in your alliance doing nothing and getting voted out 6th.  I would say Kelley is actually doing the "anybody but me" game we've heard so much about over the years...

[kikaha]

I would say Kelley is actually doing the "anybody but me" game we've heard so much about over the years...

 

And maybe even doing it better than the maestra herself.  Because I feel Kelley, unlike Sandra, has some other weapons at her disposal: she looks to me like a real good strategist, and she can kill it in challenges when she needs to. 

[ghoulina]

ProfC: to me, Kelley is operating quietly.  She, e.g., did not jump into the fray with Ciera and Kass, to make wild accusations in front of everyone; and she was subtly throwing Terry under the bus.  Maybe UTR is not the right term.  I just think she easily moves from one alliance to another, as the need arises, which it has more than once now in this game of constant shuffles.

 

No, I think UTR would be the correct term. She is making moves, she is playing a good game, but she's doing it in such a way that she's not really popping up on anyone's radar. 

[blackwing]

It's clear that these people have lots of baggage.  I would like Kelley Wentworth more if she didn't have to remind us that her dad is why she lost the first time around.  Yes, her dad was a supreme ass, but I don't recall her making any big splash on her own.  Much of the time she spent on her season, I kept confusing her with Jacqueline, Jon's girlfriend.

 

I think this episode demonstrated why Kas and Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera la puerta made such a poor decision to turn on Andrew and vote out one of their own in Woo.  They could have demonstrated loyalty to Andrew and gotten out Spencer, the one he feared the most, and solidified themselves with him.  Of course, none of them could have predicted the merge but I think they would have gone in on better footing if they still had Andrew on their side.

 

I think Ciera is far and away one of the most overrated players ever.  In her mind, she is this unparalleled strategic threat who is so good at reading people and playing them against each other.  In my mind, she is an average to below average player.  She made it fairly far in her first season because she stinks at the physical challenges and people don't feel threatened by her at all.  She is easy pickins, keep her around for a vote while the stronger tougher players are voted out, and then dump her when she is no longer needed.

 

The only reason why she is on this season is because of the tired "I had to vote out MY MOM" thing.  She gets way too much credit for that.  I don't think it was even her idea?  She was in an alliance, the alliance decided that Laura had to go, she went along with it.  I don't recall it being this particularly innovative idea from her?  Even if she suggested it first, it's not like there were that many people to pick from by that point, was there?  She was trying to prove her loyalty to her alliance, but she was at the bottom of that alliance anyways.  It didn't save her in that game.  The only thing it did was to bring her back for this season, and from what I've seen so far, she is just as bad a player as she was last time.

 

Have any media ever explored the origins of the spelling of her name?  Because we had a Cutlass Ciera.  She's about 25 I think so would have been born at the height of the popularity of that model.  Every time I see her name I am convinced that teenage Laura Morett conceived her in the backseat of a Ciera.

 

I checked out of Survivor for the seasons between (I think) just after the one where JT won and Blood vs Water.  But I'm wondering if there was ever a season where a physically incompetent contestant won the game on his or her own merit (not by being carried there like Amber Brkich) and purely on strategy alone.  By physically incompetent, I mean Fishbach levels of incompetence.

Edited November 6, 2015 by blackwing

[peachmangosteen]

I have no problem with an alpha male alliance any more than the endless female allainces we have had in the past. 

 

There's been endless female alliances?

 

Tasha and Kimmi both went into the game with the idea that they wanted to make alliances with strong men. 

 

Wow. Good luck winning with that strategy! Unless they plan to Black Widow Brigade it up. But I can't see that from them.

Edited November 6, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Bryce Lynch]

I truly belileve Ciera will be next to go cause at least no male will trust her after all her explosion. I think next episode will be a boring one as well before the true fights between strong players begin. I have a fear that the next even two episodes will be predictable with Ciera and then Abi leaving, which will be a shame of air time to watch such predictable councils.

Why didn't Wentworth even consider using her idol to save Kass and get rid of a strong player like Jeremy and Savage? I know it's early but how great would that be?

I think that would have been a terrible waste of an idol by Wentworth. There is plenty of time to get rid of the Alpha males or other threats.

Plus the best she could have guaranteed would have been a 4 to 4 tie between Ciera and the Alpha male after Kass's 5 votes were thrown out. Unless several Kass/Ciera voters saw an opportunity and decided to flip Ciera would have gone home and Wentworth would have been in trouble with the tribe and idolless.

[Nashville]

Abi is more like Phil than kASS was. But, I also think Abi is given to suddenly flip on her BFF is someone plants a seed in her head. Isn't that what happened her first season?

 

When Abi cannot think of what to do, Abi feels compelled to try making A BIG MOVE.

Unfortunately, Abi has no real idea of what actually constitutes A BIG MOVE.

The closest Abi can come is (a) think what she was planning on doing right before the notion of MAKING A BIG MOVE popped into her head, then (b) doing the opposite.

 

There's been endless female alliances?

Sure!

Some of them have lasted a WHOLE WEEK, even!

Well... almost a whole week....

[violet and green]

I wouldn't say Joe has absolutely no idea about strategy.  I think he did fine in his own season.  Sometimes your alliance is the smaller one at the merge and you can only win immunity for so long.  

 

I think Joe's adorable. But he didn't have to give the entire clue as to the location of the HII to ole Mike from Merica. He turned down opportunities to form other alliances that might have tipped the game a little more his way after the merge, etc; and he seemed to think it best to boot the annoying but strong guy out from his tribe (Vince! bringing the crazy eyes) early on. 

 

I was desperately hoping Joe could turn things around after the merge, but he struck me at the time of watching as sadly having no idea re strategy in his season - and I say this as someone who has to be coached intensively on the most basic strategizing in my personal and business life.

 

Strategy is not his strong point, I would say. But the little friendship blossoming with Spencer may work well for both of them. I do hope so, as they are my two favourites.

[pennben]

I think Joe's adorable. But he didn't have to give the entire clue as to the location of the HII to ole Mike from Merica.

 

Tyler gave Mike the entire clue, not Joe.  As I recall, Tyler saw Joe almost swallow the clue from the bottle when they were on reward.  On that basis, Joe agreed to share the clue with Tyler so as to have Tyler not spill to everyone else.  When Mike saw Tyler/Joe talking on the beach, he confronted Tyler, who turned an odd shade of green and spilt every single last sentence of the clue.

[violet and green]

Tyler gave Mike the entire clue, not Joe.  As I recall, Tyler saw Joe almost swallow the clue from the bottle when they were on reward.  On that basis, Joe agreed to share the clue with Tyler so as to have Tyler not spill to everyone else.  When Mike saw Tyler/Joe talking on the beach, he confronted Tyler, who turned an odd shade of green and spilt every single last sentence of the clue.

 

You're so right. Anyway, in my summation of last season Joe was low on strategy, whichever way I look at it. I can't for the life of me recall Tyler at all. Ha.

[Turtle]

Just as Stephen is the Bringing-Chardonnay-To-A-Tailgate guy, Kass is the Has-To-Be-The-Smartest-Person-In-The-Room player.

Well, I am dead now, killed by humorous perfection.

[Vicky8675309]

 

I checked out of Survivor for the seasons between (I think) just after the one where JT won and Blood vs Water.  But I'm wondering if there was ever a season where a physically incompetent contestant won the game on his or her own merit (not by being carried there like Amber Brkich) and purely on strategy alone.  By physically incompetent, I mean Fishbach levels of incompetence.

 

 

Sandra won twice!

[himela]

I checked out of Survivor for the seasons between (I think) just after the one where JT won and Blood vs Water.  But I'm wondering if there was ever a season where a physically incompetent contestant won the game on his or her own merit (not by being carried there like Amber Brkich) and purely on strategy alone.  By physically incompetent, I mean Fishbach levels of incompetence.

Cochran?

[BigRedCheese]

 

what Jeff finds SO fascinating about them voting off family members

 

It's not just Jeff, it was a big water cooler moment for Survivor, and I don't think it gets those much anymore, so Jeff probably feels obligated to hype it up. I remember when it happened, for a jaded Survivor fan like myself, it wasn't that big a deal, but the next day at work, people that have never watched Survivor before came over to ask me about it, it was a big entertainment news story, that a girl had voted out her own mom! 

 

 

I have a name that is often misspelled and it doesn't bother me at all, so I find myself surprised when others care about that.

 

Rob mentioned on his podcast that in his season, he misspelled Roger's name as RODGER because he knew it would bother him, and apparently it drove him crazy.

Edited November 7, 2015 by BigRedCheese

[ghoulina]

It's clear that these people have lots of baggage.  I would like Kelley Wentworth more if she didn't have to remind us that her dad is why she lost the first time around.

 

Has Kelley mentioned it a lot this season? I'm not trying to be snarky; I just honestly cannot recall her talking about her dad. 

[BigRedCheese]

I think Kelley's dad was mentioned at the beginning of the season, I can't remember if she's talked about it since then though. Of course, she's my favorite player, so I probably wouldn't even notice it if she did.

[peachmangosteen]

Yea, I only remember her mentioning it in the first ep when everyone was talking about their previous time playing.

[kikaha]

Cochran?

 

Cochran is not exactly a he-man, but IIRC he won around 4 individual immunity challenges. 

[KimberStormer]

From what I remember, one of those was the eating-gross-food challenge and one he had bought a basically unbeatable advantage at the auction.  I don't remember the others?  But the whole "Fishbach levels of incompetence" concept is flawed, in my opinion; at least in Tocantins, Stephen did fine in challenges (and won individual immunity himself once, through epic sheer nerdiness, which I still love). 

[jsm1125]

From what I remember, one of those was the eating-gross-food challenge and one he had bought a basically unbeatable advantage at the auction.  I don't remember the others?  But the whole "Fishbach levels of incompetence" concept is flawed, in my opinion; at least in Tocantins, Stephen did fine in challenges (and won individual immunity himself once, through epic sheer nerdiness, which I still love). 

He also won an advantage in the final four reward challenge that would allow him to skip untying three sets of knots and thus go up a couple fights of stairs in the final immunity challenge.

[Oscirus]

I would say Kelley is actually doing the "anybody but me" game we've heard so much about over the years...

 

I would argue that she's using Vee's old strategy of stay away from the drama strategy which is pretty much the strategy Sandra used just without the first part of avoiding your tribe mates when they become knuckleheads.

 

There's been endless female alliances?

 

While males might dominate the alliances they are in with females ( I don't even really think that's true) there have been a lot of female alliances. Hell, the first show attempted female alliance was in the first show when Stacey, Kelly and Sonja attemped to recruit Susan. We didn't get a male alliance until the season that Chris won. I'm not saying that I'm against them, but they do get attempted a lot more then all male alliances.

 

 

[kikaha]

KimberStomer, I'm pretty sure you are right.  Cochran did not deliver Ozzie-type performances.  But still he won a lot, and that lifted a huge burden off his alliance and him.  I haven't seen the season since it aired, but my recollection is that without the IC victories, he probably would not have reached the end.  i.e. he was not strictly a strategic/social player. 

[azshadowwalker]

Wow. Good luck winning with that strategy! Unless they plan to Black Widow Brigade it up. But I can't see that from them.

 

Unfortunately, I can't nest the quote that you were responding to here, so this isn't really just about your comment, but about its context. I don't even know where the evidence that either of them wanted to make alliances with "big strong men" came from. If so, why the hell would Kimmi give Stephen the time of day? Where have we seen that Tasha only wanted to ally with "big strong men" either? Am I missing something about Abi? 

 

As for the idea above that female alliances are tried more than male alliances, I don't see any evidence of that. They do get talked about more, because "evil women and their identity politics" vs "the boys just have stuff in common". 

Edited November 8, 2015 by azshadowwalker

[princelina]

It's not just Jeff, it was a big water cooler moment for Survivor, and I don't think it gets those much anymore, so Jeff probably feels obligated to hype it up. I remember when it happened, for a jaded Survivor fan like myself, it wasn't that big a deal, but the next day at work, people that have never watched Survivor before came over to ask me about it, it was a big entertainment news story, that a girl had voted out her own mom!

I see your point, but what I hate about those BvW's is that Every Single Episode revolves around that crap with Great Drama until we are left with singletons.  IMO Jeff Probst started it!  He wasn't just reacting to audience response.  That's why I not only agree that getting together with other singles is great strategy, I actively root for them!  And those are my least favorite seasons.

 

While males might dominate the alliances they are in with females ( I don't even really think that's true) there have been a lot of female alliances. Hell, the first show attempted female alliance was in the first show when Stacey, Kelly and Sonja attemped to recruit Susan. We didn't get a male alliance until the season that Chris won. I'm not saying that I'm against them, but they do get attempted a lot more then all male alliances.

 

I don't think that first part is true either.  Although I do think the males often get more camera time.  What I think happens a lot is female alliances being mentioned or proposed, then either agreed to or smiled and nodded at (so the proposer thinks they are on but is wrong), and then not carried forth.  That's why we hear a lot about them but don't see a lot of them actually happen - or they do for an ep and are dropped.

[Zuleikha]

I don't even know where the evidence that either of them wanted to make alliances with "big strong men" came from. If so, why the hell would Kimmi give Stephen the time of day? Where have we seen that Tasha only wanted to ally with "big strong men" either?

It came from pre-game interviews. Also, Kimmi allied with Stephen when she had no meaningful choice post tribe split; they were not allies on original Bayon. It remains to be seen whether they'll be strong allies at the merged tribe.

[Calamity Jane]

Based on what we saw in the episode, it was not Kass who "blew it up at camp."  It was Tasha.  The edit makes it a little confusing, because it cuts rapidly, but Tasha is starting a conversation where she's telling her alliance-mates, "So I just had this conversation with Kass..."  Then, Kass interrupts to say what Tasha actually said and was (ostensibly) trying to re-frame.  It's not like Kass ran back to camp and was like "Tasha is a liar and said this!"  My read of what we see in the ep is Tasha was about to tell everyone else that Kass is going to try to lie to them and Kass cut it off to say it wasn't a lie, which led to the confrontation in front of everyone.

 

I don't trust the edit completely, though.  The convo on the beach with Kass and Tasha is cut oddly and Tasha is about to storm off before Kass draws the line in the sand.  My suspicion is that in the second conversation, Kass was presenting that she could tell everyone at camp what Tasha said, and Tasha will look bad, but she'd rather work with her or whatever, and Tasha refused hardcore.  Kass got pissed, because from her side, she's trying to work with Tasha and Tasha's blowing her off, and made the line comment. Tasha storms off, and then realizes that Kass can probably start going around and whispering in ears about Tasha being disloyal, so she starts the thread that Kass is going to try to lie about the conversation, which Kass interrupts and then we're back into what we saw.

 

Either way, I don't think Tasha, Kass, or Ciera were playing a good game in this ep. 

 

I'm not 100% a fan of Kass or anything, but I dreaded her getting voted off specifically because of the way that she gets talked about. Inevitably, she gets talked about as being arrogant, pushy, ugly, etc...which are all phrases that get thrown at women who step out of their place.  Which she does and did.  She's not some glowing example of awesomeness, but the things she says and does wouldn't get near as much hate if she were male.  There are many, many Survivor men who are more arrogant, more pushy, and they don't get the same vitriol.  Compare how Savage is discussed to how Kass is discussed, for example.  Or how Jeremy gets discussed.  Consider why Kass' plays are called emotional, whereas Savage's are called loyalty or playing from the heart. Ugh.  It just makes me dislike Survivor fans and commentary when I see it happening again.  Do I think they're hating on her because she's a woman? Or do I think she makes great plays and decisions all the time? No, but I think the hate she gets as a result is different and more intense because she's a woman, and that is disappointing.

 

Did anyone else notice Tasha reacting when Jeff said about Kass being on the jury?  I wonder if they didn't think the person they voted off this week would make jury (much as many of us didn't), and Tasha realized she just utterly pissed off the first jury member.  If not, the reaction was weird, so maybe there was more said that we didn't get to see.

For some weird reason, I always liked Kass, despite her quirks and misreading of situations.  I would much rather have seen Ciera go. 

[peachmangosteen]

Unfortunately, I can't nest the quote that you were responding to here, so this isn't really just about your comment, but about its context. I don't even know where the evidence that either of them wanted to make alliances with "big strong men" came from. If so, why the hell would Kimmi give Stephen the time of day? Where have we seen that Tasha only wanted to ally with "big strong men" either? Am I missing something about Abi? 

 

I didn't really know about it either, but apparently they said in pre-game. But also I am fairly sure Tasha talked about it in the first episode.

[Drogo]

And Golden Boy Joe can leave anytime.  I don't understand why his backwards stance on that beam was allowed.  The whole point of making the beam narrower as they stepped down was to make it harder for them to maintain their balance.  But he turned around and had his feet separated, which gave him better balance.  I'm sure if it had been prohibited that TPTB would have said something, but I am amazed they allowed it.

 

 

Clearly his reverse stance was legal or he would have been told not to use it or disqualified. I thought it was very clever of him to think outside the box and find what might be a better way to do the challenge.

 

FWIW, Keith was also standing sideways. 

 

[Nashville]

And Golden Boy Joe can leave anytime.  I don't understand why his backwards stance on that beam was allowed.  The whole point of making the beam narrower as they stepped down was to make it harder for them to maintain their balance.  But he turned around and had his feet separated, which gave him better balance.  I'm sure if it had been prohibited that TPTB would have said something, but I am amazed they allowed it.

The rule of the comp regarding the boards were simple; three board sections of diminishing width, move down with each reset, if you fell off or stepped outside the designated section you were out. That was it - no specifications/requirements on foot placement within the designated section. So if Joe was the only one smart enough to figure out widening his stance would increase stability, I fail to see why he should be penalized for Outplaying the others.

Besides, Joe wasn't the only one; Keith was doing the same thing from the start, and I'm pretty sure we caught glimpses of at least a couple others (I'm wanting to say Spence and Jeremy, but I'm not sure) giving it a try as well at different times in the comp.

[ljenkins782]

It's clear that these people have lots of baggage.  I would like Kelley Wentworth more if she didn't have to remind us that her dad is why she lost the first time around.  Yes, her dad was a supreme ass, but I don't recall her making any big splash on her own.  Much of the time she spent on her season, I kept confusing her with Jacqueline, Jon's girlfriend.

 

I don't see her rehashing her original season much at all. outside of the first episode where all of them recounted the high/lowlights of their first time around. 

 

Agreed that she was pretty invisible in her season though, I just watched it very, very recently and I can't think of anything in particular about her game except for her begging her dad (in vain) to chill out.

 

I checked out of Survivor for the seasons between (I think) just after the one where JT won and Blood vs Water.  But I'm wondering if there was ever a season where a physically incompetent contestant won the game on his or her own merit (not by being carried there like Amber Brkich) and purely on strategy alone.  By physically incompetent, I mean Fishbach levels of incompetence.

 

Sandra won twice!

 

Sandra is one of the worst challenge competitors of all time. I also remember Vecepia from Marquesas being pretty bad at challenges and she won. 

 

my opinion; at least in Tocantins, Stephen did fine in challenges (and won individual immunity himself once, through epic sheer nerdiness, which I still love).

 

 

Lol, his phone number strategy win. Awesome come from behind victory, because he really stunk up the physical portion of the challenge. I just pulled this one up on youtube and I love how the rest of the tribe is fondly shaking their heads at his explanation of how he cracked the answer while Coach is  dejectedly bent over his puzzle, ha! 

 

I would argue that she's using Vee's old strategy of stay away from the drama strategy which is pretty much the strategy Sandra used just without the first part of avoiding your tribe mates when they become knuckleheads.

 

 

Cirie also used this strategy to a one-challenge-away-from-winning performance in her first season. Kelley has a lot of shields in front of her right now with Ciera and Abi on the outs plus at least 4 traditional post-merge physical threats. Kelley is probably pretty good at challenges too (but the fact that I can't remember any of her performances says that she's not standing out TOO much, which is good), so if she can outlast the Joes and Savages, she could wind up being one of the strongest challenge competitors there. 

[phlebas]

KimberStomer, I'm pretty sure you are right.  Cochran did not deliver Ozzie-type performances.  But still he won a lot, and that lifted a huge burden off his alliance and him.  I haven't seen the season since it aired, but my recollection is that without the IC victories, he probably would not have reached the end.  i.e. he was not strictly a strategic/social player. 

Don't forget Parvati in the first Fans v Favorites.  She won one individual immunity right after the merge, but she basically talked Jason into stepping down (though I think she may have won anyway). Never really sniffed the IC again, but she won purely on her social game.

 

Not surprising, because Parvati is sort of the human manifestation of the Survivor Social Game concept.  She didn't even have to play a top-flight strategy game -- just do what Cirie said until she could bounce Cirie out at #3, then glide to a win with the Final-Council-Inept-But-I-Still-Love-Her Amanda.

[peachmangosteen]

Agreed that she was pretty invisible in her season though, I just watched it very, very recently and I can't think of anything in particular about her game except for her begging her dad (in vain) to chill out.

Kelley was a pretty big part of what was imo the best episode of SJDS, the Drew boot ep. Drew wanted her gone because he thought she was a strategic mastermind. And she gave us this amazing face. But other than this she really was completely invisible. I always wondered though why Drew was so scared of her.

Edited November 11, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[lexington11]

I was 99% sure I heard him say 'first member of our jury'.  Maybe I heard wrong.  Usually the first merge boot is the last pre-juror, but they are changing everything else this season.

That all changed in China when the first merge boot was the first juror.

[BigRedCheese]

 

I always wondered though why Drew was so scared of her.

 

He said in the show, she had seen almost every episode, so he felt she was dangerous because she knew a lot about Survivor. I'm not sure if he had ever even seen an episode before, so somebody that had watched the show regularly seemed like a Survivor mastermind to him.

 

She was memorable to me, mostly because she seemed like she had potential, and her loud mouthed dad was getting in the way.

[lexington11]

He said in the show, she had seen almost every episode, so he felt she was dangerous because she knew a lot about Survivor. I'm not sure if he had ever even seen an episode before, so somebody that had watched the show regularly seemed like a Survivor mastermind to him.

 

She was memorable to me, mostly because she seemed like she had potential, and her loud mouthed dad was getting in the way.

To be fair to Kelley's dad, I would have also had a very difficult time holding my tongue when placed on the same tribe as entitled brat Baylor and enabling mother Missy.

[ProfCrash]

Dale struggled with more then just Missy and Baylor.