S06.E04: Here's Not Here

[raven]

 

I think the entire point is that there are no good options and certainly no right options.

I wish I could agree with you; I think this would be interesting to explore on the show, but I think they will continue to show us that killing is the only option.  If not, there would have been some redemption for Nicholas, but that ended up being a wasted effort on Glenn's part.  So I have no doubt that the W that Morgan has in the house will cause more trouble and also be a wasted effort.  For me, that's a different issue (the show) then Morgan's behavior. 

 

I loved the quandaries this episode put the characters in and I liked seeing Morgan regress (at the end of "Clear" he seemed almost on his way back from full on craziness) but he didn't stay that way.  Solitude was no good for him.  He won't directly kill himself but was looking for death I think.  What better way to do that than to continue to attack anything that moves?  Instead he found Eastman; I have a slightly different take on Eastman.  I think he was tired and ready to die.  Like Morgan at the time, what did he have to live for, except maybe Tabitha?  He didn't make an effort to seek out people; he lived his life and that was it.  I think he was tired of it, did not want to seek out others and maybe felt it was an OK time to go, that he had helped Morgan, so he got sloppy with the zombie, maybe subconsciously.

 

I don't find Morgan's philosphy any more selfish than the philosphy of taking a life when you think it's appropriate; that's inherently selfish as well.  Who determines an appropriate threat?  Well, the individual who feels threatened does, but whether or not that's correct can be debated endlessly, like Carol killing Karen and David.  Morgan did drive some of the Ws off with violence.  That's not pacifism; it's physical defense.   If Rick hasn't killed them all, in this show they'll be back.  So we can debate the different theories all we want, but we KNOW on TWD that lethal violence will always be shown as the best answer.  What would Morgan do when faced with an opponent with a gun?  Actually, didn't the two Ws we first see him take down in the woods have unloaded guns?  He didn't know they were unloaded and still bested them.  No one's faster than a bullet though.  I don't think Morgan still wants to die, but I think he could tip over into crazy again (who wouldn't).

 

I think TWD universe would be a great place to explore these differing views and see if they can exist together - I just don't think the show will do this (see; Herschel, Tyreese, et al).   What a depressing world to live in, where killing is your only option.  No wonder Eastman didn't want to leave his piece of land. 

 

 

At some point he's going to have to decide which lives are more "precious" than others.

I think he has.  He risked himself to save Rick way back when and he risked himself to save Aaron and Daryl.  He put himself out there to defend Alexandria.  It wasn't easy or convenient, and neither is what he's doing now.  *I* think the W has no redeeming characteristics but would love to be shown otherwise. 

 

Regarding the number of zombies, they'll always be there.  It's not a given that everyone alive will kill even a few (look at the Alexandrians) and more are made every day.   Some are made deliberately, like the Ws were doing.  So that doesn't surprise me. 

 

So I loved the episode and don't mind the placement.  I like the way the show is wrapping the episodes around each other and knew that was Rick at the gate; I like that stuff is happening to different pockets of people without the others knowing what's going on.  It's happening fast, reactions need to be in the spur of the moment.  Of course it's all going to end in more miserable bloodshed. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by raven

[Raven1707]

A couple of thoughts as I try to catch up with the thread:

 

I enjoyed the story about the psychopath who tried to beat a guy to death in case people found out he was a psychopath. That's some Rick Grimes level of forethought.

 

Creighton Dallas Wilton tried to beat Eastman to death because he knew Eastman would do whatever he could to make sure Wilton would not be released on parole. At that point, Wilton knew the game was up, understood that he'd lost his "Get Out of Jail" card, and no doubt decided to make Eastman pay with his life. Hiding his psychopathy was not his primary interest at that point; he was out for blood.

 

We saw Morgan walking in that direction, but I don't recall any solid evidence saying he was doing anything beyond that.
 

If memory serves, Morgan closed the gate after the Wolves ran out.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Raven1707

[FierceCritter]

You gave me an idea for a truly morbid show: TWD does to Disney World and they run into all the characters, like Snow White and Mickey, but they are all WALKERS!!!!  Cool, huh? Think we can get Disney to play along?

Zombie Snow White has been a popular Halloween costume for some years now. 

https://www.woodiespartyzone.ie/fancydress/Product_Detail.aspx?ProductID=FANC7555

[Caelicola]

I kinda think that a lot more than 1% made it through the first months, though. I mean, back in season 3 they had Rick say that they thought about half the population had died, maybe more, so I think they want us to take that estimation as roughly accurate, or at least as accurate as Rick can ever be. Then again, it doesn't help that most survivors made it their past-time to kill other survivors, so who knows, by now CDB and the ASZhats might be the only survivors left, and they're dropping like flies too.

But yeah, realistically they should be running out of walkers. And that's one of the silliest sentences I've ever written, because realism and walkers are a bit oxymoronic (hehehe, I said moronic).

[Bongo Fury]

I've thought about this too. ...  If we assume that 1% of the population survived the initial apocalypse, ...

 

Annnnnd apparently you're over thinking it. It doesn't matter what the population is, there is no need for all the math, if 1% survived, 99% are zeds, and the ratio of humans to zeds is 1:99.

 

But I agree with the other poster, I think it's more like 0.1% survived and the ratio is 1:999.

 

And of those who did survive, there seems to be an extremely high percentage of sociopaths. So does that mean that being a sociopath increases your chances of surviving a ZA? Does treating other humans as expendable or a resource to be exploited increase your survival chances? Or is that just the twisted message Kirkman is trying to send us?

[magemaud]

 

...I liked those small details because they did tell us something about who the person had once been and that they had had the bad luck to have more or less died at their freaking jobs.   Now they're all bundled in what looks like 17 layers of ratty grayed out clothing...which makes it all the harder to remember that they were ever actually people.

Good thing they still appear to be carrying valid ID! 

[Raven1707]

I think there is a lot about the story that doesn't actually add up. but that part didn't stick out as a problem. For one, he had Creighton imprisoned for a significant time in terms of the progress of the ZA, so it's entirely possible he had not been exposed to the infection. Also, unless I misheard, I didn't get the impression that he attempted to turn himself in immediately after his prisoner died, It seems like there was an undefined period of time that passed while he himself was in rough mental shape. 

 

Not sure of the precise wording (I'm convalescing from pneumonia), but Eastman at least implied that he'd been where Morgan had been, presumably back in that dark place with a door that brought him back to "here" of "Here's Not Here" fame.

 

I thought it came before. Didn't he start aikido after his daughter gave him the rabbit foot or something?

 

As I recall, his daughter gave him the rabbit foot -- for luck? -- and the next day he found a flyer for Aikido classes.

 

 

Then again, I also thought he killed a guard with the shiv made out of the walker arm, but I don't remember that scene very clearly.

 

It's been a while since I've watched that episode, but I think Glenn gave the bone-shiv to Maggie, and she was the one who took out the guard.

[ikmccall]

I think Glen used the arm of the chair to kill the zombie.

[ParadoxLost]

And of those who did survive, there seems to be an extremely high percentage of sociopaths. So does that mean that being a sociopath increases your chances of surviving a ZA? Does treating other humans as expendable or a resource to be exploited increase your survival chances? Or is that just the twisted message Kirkman is trying to send us?

 

I think that the show is a heightened/exaggerated version of what would happen in every day life in the immediate aftermath of an apocalypse.  If you exaggerate personality traits you encounter in every day life and weather events you can see where the extremes come from.  I had a bunch of examples that basically become on giant mess of an explanation about how an exaggerated version of dealing with Comcast customer care can explain how a larger percentage of survivors become sociopaths.  So became unsuitable for the thread.

 

Back to the episode, I'm not sure how I feel about how deliberately they decided to put little callbacks in.  The goo goo cluster, rabbits foot, and bullet bother me a little.  So its cool that we know were Morgan got those.  But his use of them in Coda doesn't really track for me now.  He gave up two of his links to Eastman and an item e was gifted the first time he saved a life instead of indiscriminately killing everyone.  Why?  I can only think he was thanking God for saving him because he really believes he's ok now.

[Nashville]

I think Glen used the arm of the chair to kill the zombie.

 

Didn't Glenn rip off the zombie's arm, then beat the zombie's brains out with his own arm?

Wait a minute...

Never mind.

That was Chuck Norris.

My bad.

 

;>

[Save Yourself]

The choices that this show makes are confusing. We go from three rock-em, sock-em episodes to an extra long flashback with lots of philosophy and stick twirling.

I enjoy character back stories. It is a story telling element that has been under used or poorly used in this show. This last episode is no exception. Why did we need 90 minutes devoted to nothing but Morgan, Eastman and cute little Tabitha? A little bit of Morgan's journey would have sufficed. Or telling the entirety of it across a few episodes.

Overall, I enjoyed it but I wish there had been less of it. The backstory could have been mixed with Morgan in Alexandria in the present day, regrouping after the attack of the Wolves. This isn't a show that should give viewers much time to breathe.

And they need to stop killing animals! (A silly demand, I know.) I'm kind of wishing that the animals in the ZA would join together a la "Zoo" and rid the world of walkers...and of some of the people.

I agree, loved the first 3 eps and made the (silly) mistake of thinking TPTB had finally worked out what we want (we = me lol!). To stop that momentum was so disappointing, I enjoy backstories too but as you said, spread it out, sprinkle it within the current storyline. And I'm sure it could have been told in less than 20 mins (half of which should have just been about Tabitha).

I thought Enid's backstory snippets were good although they would have been better if we knew how long she was out on her own. I liked seeing how Abraham met Eugene but wish they'd shown why he went so berserk in the store and why his wife and kids were so traumatised and therefore walked out to their death. When I found out the GN storyline for that it made more sense but really, you shouldn't have to do that when the TV show is meant to be standalone.

[Andromeda]

I've thought about this too. Not just in terms of how long the walkers should be able to walk, but the quantity of them.

 

Forgive me for being a nerd, but I love math.  As of 2008,  there were 528.7 million people in North America.  (I'm just going to go with all of North America, because the Canadian and Mexican borders probably don't matter much to walkers.)  If we assume that 1% of the population survived the initial apocalypse, that is roughly 5,300,000 people.  If you take 530 million and subtract 5.3 million, and divide the answer by 5.3 million, that comes to each surviving person being responsible for killing 99 walkers each, which I think could probably be done within a month for CDB when they were out on the road.  Of course the living come back as we know, but compared to the massive amount of walkers, that really doesn't amount to much.

I've done the same maths! I was thinking 10 percent survival, means each person in the U.S. (population 320 million) is responsible for killing 32 walkers. Only 32. You have some people (children, the elderly, clumsy people, the disabled) who can't kill their share, but you have people like Daryl and Michone who can kill way more than their share, so it should even out. If each person takes out one walker every 11 days, you'd have wiped them out within a year. Every 3 days, and they're gone in a matter of months.

 

If the infection is worse, and there is only 1% of the population left, it would just take a little longer, or you'd kill them more frequently.

 

And it's doable because, unlike roaches or cockroaches or HUMANS, walkers don't procreate. Just add something new to the death tradition, and trepan the base of the skill after death as a matter of ritual -- no more walkers.

 

Now I'll go check out the Gruesome, Gory and Grabby thread mentioned above.

 

I kinda think that a lot more than 1% made it through the first months, though. I mean, back in season 3 they had Rick say that they thought about half the population had died, maybe more, so I think they want us to take that estimation as roughly accurate, or at least as accurate as Rick can ever be. Then again, it doesn't help that most survivors made it their past-time to kill other survivors, so who knows, by now CDB and the ASZhats might be the only survivors left, and they're dropping like flies too.

But yeah, realistically they should be running out of walkers. And that's one of the silliest sentences I've ever written, because realism and walkers are a bit oxymoronic (hehehe, I said moronic).

Yeah, every time humans wipe out fellow survivors, it annoys me for exactly that reason. Way to ensure the propagation of our species--NOT. I was really annoyed at Morgan in this episode when he took out the innocent people who happened across his trail. That was so brutal -- he has a lot to make up for! (Maybe I'll forgive him if he take out my share of walkers for me.... On second thought, NO WAY.)

 

I felt for that poor goat. I also worry about the domesticated horses and cows -- they need to be preserved as species along with goats and sheep. What with most becoming walker chow, pretty soon there won't be any left.

 

I agree with those who have said Georgia would not be putting a triple murderer on highway flower duty. And there are a heck of a lot more sociopaths than just one prisoner out of a hundred. So Eastman is kind of a crap psychologist not to recognize them all. I do like the actor though -- he really elevated the episode. Even though it was clear from the start he was a goner.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Andromeda

[JackONeill]

 

 Of course it's all going to end in more miserable bloodshed. 

 

Makes me want to break into a rousing version of Camelot.

 

(But you are right. This ain't no Camelot in which we find ourselves.)

[SevenStars]

Yeah, every time humans wipe out fellow survivors, it annoys me for exactly that reason. Way to ensure the propagation of our species--NOT. I was really annoyed at Morgan in this episode when he took out the innocent people who happened across his trail. That was so brutal -- he has a lot to make up for! (Maybe I'll forgive him if he take out my share of walkers for me.... On second thought, NO WAY.)

If I remember correctly Morgan didn't just attack them, they chase him. He was just smarter than and came up with a way to kill them both before they even had the chance to attack him directly. I call them seld-defenses and Morgan might feel bad about it but I saw no problem with his actions.

But I get the point you were trying to make.

Edited November 5, 2015 by SevenStars

[AngelaHunter]

I felt for that poor goat. I also worry about the domesticated horses and cows -- they need to be preserved as species along with goats and sheep.

 

 

We should be seeing more feral hogs. Pigs revert to wild pretty quickly and are well-equipped to survive, as are horses and  goats. Sheep and milk cows have been manipulated to a point where they can't survive without people to milk and shear them, so most of them would be goners, if not all to walkers and humans, then to coyotes, dogs and bears.

[JackONeill]

It's the coyotes who would be making out like bandits. Screw the wolves!!!

[JBody]

I wish I could agree with you; I think this would be interesting to explore on the show, but I think they will continue to show us that killing is the only option.  If not, there would have been some redemption for Nicholas, but that ended up being a wasted effort on Glenn's part.  So I have no doubt that the W that Morgan has in the house will cause more trouble and also be a wasted effort.  For me, that's a different issue (the show) then Morgan's behavior. 

 

I loved the quandaries this episode put the characters in and I liked seeing Morgan regress (at the end of "Clear" he seemed almost on his way back from full on craziness) but he didn't stay that way.  Solitude was no good for him.  He won't directly kill himself but was looking for death I think.  What better way to do that than to continue to attack anything that moves?  Instead he found Eastman; I have a slightly different take on Eastman.  I think he was tired and ready to die.  Like Morgan at the time, what did he have to live for, except maybe Tabitha?  He didn't make an effort to seek out people; he lived his life and that was it.  I think he was tired of it, did not want to seek out others and maybe felt it was an OK time to go, that he had helped Morgan, so he got sloppy with the zombie, maybe subconsciously.

 

I don't find Morgan's philosphy any more selfish than the philosphy of taking a life when you think it's appropriate; that's inherently selfish as well.  Who determines an appropriate threat?  Well, the individual who feels threatened does, but whether or not that's correct can be debated endlessly, like Carol killing Karen and David.  Morgan did drive some of the Ws off with violence.  That's not pacifism; it's physical defense.   If Rick hasn't killed them all, in this show they'll be back.  So we can debate the different theories all we want, but we KNOW on TWD that lethal violence will always be shown as the best answer.  What would Morgan do when faced with an opponent with a gun?  Actually, didn't the two Ws we first see him take down in the woods have unloaded guns?  He didn't know they were unloaded and still bested them.  No one's faster than a bullet though.  I don't think Morgan still wants to die, but I think he could tip over into crazy again (who wouldn't).

 

I think TWD universe would be a great place to explore these differing views and see if they can exist together - I just don't think the show will do this (see; Herschel, Tyreese, et al).   What a depressing world to live in, where killing is your only option.  No wonder Eastman didn't want to leave his piece of land. 

 

I think he has.  He risked himself to save Rick way back when and he risked himself to save Aaron and Daryl.  He put himself out there to defend Alexandria.  It wasn't easy or convenient, and neither is what he's doing now.  *I* think the W has no redeeming characteristics but would love to be shown otherwise. 

 

Regarding the number of zombies, they'll always be there.  It's not a given that everyone alive will kill even a few (look at the Alexandrians) and more are made every day.   Some are made deliberately, like the Ws were doing.  So that doesn't surprise me. 

 

So I loved the episode and don't mind the placement.  I like the way the show is wrapping the episodes around each other and knew that was Rick at the gate; I like that stuff is happening to different pockets of people without the others knowing what's going on.  It's happening fast, reactions need to be in the spur of the moment.  Of course it's all going to end in more miserable bloodshed. 

 

This is what I was trying to say when I complained about Morgan's uber-peacenik stance as being strawmannish because really, over and over again, Show has demonstrated that "killing is the only option," as you say, and anything else is just irresponsible.  He got his philosophy from Eastman ---great, another hermit.  We all know this doesn't fly in a group setting, we knew that before we knew Eastman.  I really want to see a workable alternative to that, not pie-in-the-sky BS like Morgan's espousing (and in the middle of the Wolf fight too -- really Show? That still pisses me off because you just hammered another nail in Morgan's coffin).  I guess we have Glenn (possibly RIP) and Maggie, although she's been in the background for the most part.  Yes, killing is the only option.  Also sociopaths rule this world.  AWESOME.  I would really like to see something other than this bleak misanthropic re-hash of seasons past -- maybe I'm a dumb optimist but I keep hoping for a viable alternative to crop up, one that isn't as ridiculously unworkable as Morgan's is...  I don't know if I'm making any sense but I am just disappointed in Morgan's development; it smacks of character assassination somehow.

[rab01]

... Over and over again, Show has demonstrated that "killing is the only option," as you say, and anything else is just irresponsible.  ...  I really want to see a workable alternative to that, not pie-in-the-sky BS like Morgan's espousing (and in the middle of the Wolf fight too -- really Show? That still pisses me off because you just hammered another nail in Morgan's coffin).  ...  I don't know if I'm making any sense but I am just disappointed in Morgan's development; it smacks of character assassination somehow.

So much THIS.

 

It's not Morgan and it's not even his philosophy. It's that the show had him espousing it in the middle of the least plausible circumstances and scenario. The middle of a surprise attack is not a moment for a philosophical debate and Morgan could not know that it was possible to repel the attack without further deaths -- and the Show was very clearly telling us that he was completely wrong. The Show was just stacking the deck in a really stupid way. If the Show wants me to hate Morgan, just have him eat babies or make him FPP's best friend and spiritual twin; it would be a lot faster.  (Oh yeah, and then FPP could die in the process).

[bearcatfan]

Well, there go my TV detective skills, haha. If they filmed it so much later, moving it up seems even more like a manipulative move to keep viewers speculating about Glenn's death and Rick's fate. Not cool, dudes.

To be clear, it was the 8th episode filmed but was always going to be the 4th episode aired. Speculation is that they did it this way to give the remaining cast an extra long break as there was a break in filming that began after filming this epsiode. The spoiling sites knew filming for 4 was skipped back in June/July.

[Nashville]

I don't find Morgan's philosphy any more selfish than the philosphy of taking a life when you think it's appropriate; that's inherently selfish as well. 

In the sense that ensuring one's personal survival is at its core an inherently selfish act - yeah, sure. :>

[bearcatfan]

I read a story about the decomposition of the corpses on the show and actually, they would down to just skeletons in about 9-12 months. I'm assuming that the brain would decompose as well and once the brain is gone, no more walkers. Of course, then the show would be over. There were be new zombies from new deaths but since the vast majority sucombed in the initial wave, they should be few and far between.

 

http://hellogiggles.com/zombies-the-walking-dead/

[SevenStars]

Maybe the disease that cause them to turn into walkers is also slowing down the decomposition of their bodies. So their doesn't decompose as fast as it would normal do.

Edited November 5, 2015 by SevenStars

[raven]

 

In the sense that ensuring one's personal survival is at its core an inherently selfish act - yeah, sure. :>

Well, yes :)  I could decide that I need my neighbor's belongings in order to survive, for example and decide to take them.  I don't think I'm explaining myself well.

 

I was talking more about the comments about Morgan being selfish because he has a personal credo he's trying to live up to.  I don't find that any more selfish than the way others in the group are living their lives; basing it on their own ideas of what they need to do, physcially and mentally, to survive.  Morgan's credo doesn't preclude him using physical violence to subdue a threat, so he's not a pacifist IMO.  He's placed himself physically between multiple threats when he didn't have to.  Just because he's not as trigger happy as others doesn't make his personal philosphy, or his actions defending the town, worthless or only of value if he lived alone.  More Alexandrians would have died if he hadn't been there.

 

I don't think his character's been assassinated; he wasn't a killer when we first met him - he would have killed Rick if so - and killed innocent people when he was crazy.   That's no worse than Carol killing Karen and David, and Rick killing Pete because 1)  he was angry and didn't like him and 2)  Deanna gave the OK.  I'm sure there are other examples. 

 

I have some issues with the tone of the show.  The Karen/David incident could have been the start of some good hashing out (on the show) about what was right, different views, etc. but after Carol came back it was a moot point.  I know what the show wanted me to think about Pete, but that whole issue was handled badly (again, by the show) and again, could have been a good focal point about the worthiness of who lives, how much effort to put in to keeping people around, etc.  Instead it came off as "he's a bad guy!  don't believe us - look, drunkenly kills an innocent, good guy - execution time!"  There was a tiny bit of this with Glenn & Nicholas, but the show got rid of that debate in the worst possible way.

 

So what I'm trying to say is that all of these actions, including Morgan's could have been focal points for what should be a necessary consensus among the group about what constitutes a threat that deserves lethal force, are they just reacting to what happens or trying to build something sustainable which would necessitate some kind of civilization, etc.   I don't think we're going to get that, it's just going to be that there's always a new, lethal threat and extreme violence is the only way.  And I'm not sure how I feel about that. 

 

I still think the drama and most of the performances are outstanding and I'm invested in most of the main characters, but just think how we're all so sure that the W that Morgan has in the house is going to get out and kill again, so Morgan will be shown to be wrong.  That's how this show rolls, and I'll be there watching, I just wanted it to turn out to be something different, because honestly, if we're talking real-world applications, eventually Morgan (or someone like him) would be shown to be right. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by raven

[peach]

I finally was able to watch this episode, and since I thought I was going to dislike it a lot, I ended up thinking it was pretty good.  As has been discussed aplenty, the no kill philosophy is a lot different living alone in the wilderness than in a group.  Also, Eastman's catalyst was finding that killing his psycho in revenge didn't "give him peace."  But killing the Wolves attacking Alexandria was about eliminating a threat, not taking revenge.  So, it gets murky.  But I thought Morgan showed a great deal of doubt in his face when he walked away from that locked door.

 

Maybe that's because when he confessed his killings to Eastman, it was not something he was proud of, even though he couldn't seem to stop himself.  The Wolf seemed to find it all amusing.  So, maybe Morgan's wondering if he doesn't have a creep like the killer of Eastman's family on his hands, not a formerly normal person. 

 

On a lighter note, my kid and I chuckled a bit over the unlocked cell door.  I said Carl would've figured that out in five seconds.  Kid says, "WHERE'S CARL?"  lol

 

Edited November 5, 2015 by peach

[AngelaHunter]

I could decide that I need my neighbor's belongings in order to survive, for example and decide to take them.

 

Yes, if all the veneer of civilization, social convention and law and order have been eradicated and your neighbor tried to kill you for some cans of food you have, then yes. None of us has been in that situation, but what it comes down to in CDB's world is survival of the fittest and guarding what you have  - anything that will ensure the survival of yourself and your loved ones/family.

 

In that scenario, I think even I - who truly won't kill flies, bees etc - might bring myself to harm someone to protect my family and my home. In fact, I know I would. Morgan Yoda's new-found credo of "All life is precious" sounds utterly ridiculous as the Dire Wolves savagely murdered (as I've mentioned) the very people who so kindly are sharing their resources - food, power, etc. - with Morgan. So his new pacificity is more important than the lives of those in this community that took him in when they didn't have to.

[raven]

 

Morgan Yoda's new-found credo of "All life is precious" sounds utterly ridiculous as the Dire Wolves savagely murdered (as I've mentioned) the very people who so kindly are sharing their resources - food, power, etc. - with Morgan. So his new pacificity is more important than the lives of those in this community that took him in when they didn't have to.

And he very kindly put himself in danger to protect those people, as I've mentioned.  And used physical violence, which makes him not a pacifist.  Being taken in  doesn't obligate him to use only lethal force for defense.  Never mind that he was already pulling his weight and putting himself in harm's way on Rick's mission and was only at Alexandria because that got screwed up, so he's not exactly been kicking back and watching others do work.   Many here seem to think he just stood there as people were murdered; he did not; but because he doesn't ascribe to "shoot and kill" it invalidates his actions somehow.

 

My main point has always been that if the show continues to show that there is no point in even attempting to be civilized, it will get old really fast (to me).

 

But I've stated this mulitple times already, the discussion is repetitive and I'm going to agree to disagree.

Edited November 6, 2015 by raven

[Madding crowd]

I needed to think about this episode for awhile before posting. I mostly liked it although of course I want to know what happened to Glen. Eastman was an interesting character and I always enjoy seeing Morgan and his story. I didn't think Eastman was saying that only one prisoner was a sociopath and the rest were not. With most of the prison population, the criminals are a stew of mental illness, drug abusive, low intelligence, child abuse/neglect, poor education, etc. They can also be evil. The one guy was just evil, nothing else, and Eastman knew it when he saw it.   Eastman's philosophy was also interesting. I don't think he was opposed to killing, just opposed to killing unless it was in self defense or to defend someone else (he would have killed to defend Morgan). So really ,it is not much different than the philosophy most of the characters have even if it is not expressed.

 

I don't want to see a show where everyone just wants to kill each other, I understand other people may enjoy that type of show but I need to see some caring and some thought put into things. I also think that people cannot survive without each other, they will go crazy if nothing else. I have mentioned it before, but without ASZ, Rick and his people could well be starved, ill or dead in the woods somewhere. They absolutely needed food, clean water, medicine, beds and guns. ASZ people needed fighters. To me it was a fair trade off. I'm still not sure what Morgan thinks he is doing with the captured wolf; he is not a person who could be reasoned with or ever trusted. I will be interested to see where that part of the story goes.

[Muffyn]

The problem is that the comics continue ad nauseum, which is okay for things like Batman and Superman where you have a sustainable world that continues indefinitely, but the world of the Walking Dead is finite.  Either the apoclaypse ends and people survive, or everyone dies and the human race becomes extinct.  This show has to address this at some point.  Walkers can't walk forever.  If you want to be real about it, your average walker shouldn't be able to walk for more than a couple of days before falling apart.  There really should be very few walkers left at this point in the show's timeline.

They seem to be showing more decayed walkers over time.  So you can distinguish recent converts from early walkers.  This universe does not seem to allow for the idea of walkers rotting on normal timelines or decaying to a point of not being a threat.  

 

Good thing they still appear to be carrying valid ID! 

In the zombie apocalypse you'll need a valid government ID, credit cards, an ATM card and your health insurance card.  

[bosawks]

"Here's Not Here" keeps reminding me of that old 60's song. "She's Not There", by, you guessed it, The Zombies. 

 

I'll be glad when this thread isn't at the top so that earworm of a song can finally get out of my head.

[JackONeill]

 

In the zombie apocalypse you'll need a valid government ID, credit cards, an ATM card and your health insurance card.  

 

 

How many times do you think Rick and them ever wish for the good old days when all you had to worry about were liberals and conservatives tearing each other's necks out? Now it's Walkers, and Wolfs, and hipsters from Terminus, etc By golly, the world sure has changed.

[magemaud]

 

In the zombie apocalypse you'll need a valid government ID, credit cards, an ATM card and your health insurance card.

Well, keeping your ID in your wallet works for the guys but now I'm going to have to shamble around with my PURSE 24/7? 

[lulee]

I disagree with -- or at least think it's oversimplifying the themes and events of the show -- to characterize the prevailing philosophy or the message being sent as "killing is the only option,"

 

I said last week in response to the Wolves' attack, and I'll repeat this week: I don't think Morgan is being portrayed as absolutely wrong.  He's not being portrayed as careless or stupid or ill-intentioned or the like but having a sort of cultural mismatch with current events.He's being portrayed as situationally unadapted or out of sync. When Morgan was alone on his trek to find Rick, he could incapacitate or frighten off any human threats and then, if necessary, evade them, but that's not the situation in Alexandria. He's like an exchange student who's still figuring out the new school. How he made it through his old "school" isn't working anymore. 

 

Scrolling mentally back through the seasons, here are some events when killing a human or the manner of killing a human was not framed as "the only option" for a threat beforehand or in retrospect:
- Rick, Michonne, Abraham, and Sasha slaughtering the Termites at the church. [Glenn, Maggie objecting]

- Randall on the farm [debated and voted on]
- Carl and the Woodbury teen [Herschel's concern; Rick taking Carl's gun]
- Carol killing David and Karen [Carol banished by Rick]

For that matter, it may not have generated much discussion by the characters, but Daryl killed Dawn the Atlanta cop in a sudden rage, not because she posed an imminent threat or really a threat at all - and it was an act of vengeance - not self-preservation or protection. And most recently, the manner, at least, of Rick's killing of Dr. PD, MD. was up for debate by characters.

I don't think Morgan's character has been assassinated. On the contrary, in this episode, he showed how incredibly resilient he was, coming back from losing everyone and everything he had. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by lulee

[JackONeill]

Well, keeping your ID in your wallet works for the guys but now I'm going to have to shamble around with my PURSE 24/7? 

Name tags. I think it's everyone's duty in the zombie apocalypse that as they are about to die they fill out a name tag and affix it with duct tape to their left chest area (not right -- left.)  On it should be the person's name, of course, and "In Case You Find Me, Please Return Me to _____."

 

Walkers shouldn't be allowed to walk around willy-nilly.

[maystone]

Well, keeping your ID in your wallet works for the guys but now I'm going to have to shamble around with my PURSE 24/7? 

 

Actually, the ZA can have my purse when they pry it from my cold, dead right shoulder where there's a permanent depression carved into my body from hauling it around for the last five decades or so.  Let the rest of the herd stumble around mumbling, "Braaaiinz!" I'll be proudly shambling off by myself crooning, "Puuurrse."

[Raven1707]

Here are the Live + Same Day ratings for the first four episodes of Season 6:

 

10-11-15 “First Time Again” 14.633 million viewers
10-18-15 “JSS” 12.183 million viewers
10-25-15 “Thank You” 13.143 million viewers
11-01-15 “Here’s Not Here” 13.339 million viewers

[truelovekiss]

Actually, the ZA can have my purse when they pry it from my cold, dead right shoulder where there's a permanent depression carved into my body from hauling it around for the last five decades or so. Let the rest of the herd stumble around mumbling, "Braaaiinz!" I'll be proudly shambling off by myself crooning, "Puuurrse."

Plus, once the initial outbreak dies down, department stores, outlet stores, etc will probably not be looted too hard, so those expensive purses that I can't afford will be available!

[BetyBee]

Good thing they still appear to be carrying valid ID! 

I was thinking about this.  Women don't usually carry their IDs in their pockets.  And none of the women zombies are carrying purses....so did Eastman just carve "Jane Doe" on every female zombie's grave marker?

[morgankobi]

I saw at least one "Jane Doe" marker.

[ghoulina]

There was finally a re-airing last night, so I was able to get my DVR to successfully record. Watched again this morning, and I think I enjoyed even more than I did Sunday night. I definitely think the episode could have been placed better in the line up, but I just find it to be a very compelling story, very beautifully done. I don't think this story was told to make excuses for Morgan. I don't think TPTB thought we'd watch this and be like, "Ohhh, now it all makes sense! You get a pass on the Wolves, dude". No. Not at all. I think this episode was showing two men with very damaged psyches, doing what they had to do in order to keep going. The only way they could live with themselves was by adopting this "All Life is Precious" mantra. Morgan wanted so desperately to be able to pass this on to the Wolf, to keep the cycle going. To prove that it works, that it's worthy, that all that time with Eastman in the cabin wasn't in vain.

 

I bet, or at least I hope, that Morgan will eventually find some balance. We've seen a lot of pendulum swinging on this show. After Lori's death and how crazy Rick went, he let the Woodburians in and took to farming. Wouldn't carry his gun, wouldn't go on runs, etc. When Carol moved on from losing her daughter and shed her abused housewife skin, she almost became a little too cold. Hence what happened to Karvid. People may argue that Rick is still crazy and Carol is still too cold, but that's probably a discussion best left for their individual threads - but *I* have seen them come back from those places, and be able to find more balance. 

 

So I think Morgan's pendulum swung a little bit too far to the other side, and he just needs to find that middle ground. I find him a fascinating character, mostly because of how human and relatable Lennie James makes him. In that moment, when Eastman asks for the actual names of the ones Morgan has lost, and he croaks out - "Jenny, Duane" - my heart just breaks and tears fill up in my eyes. Just two words. But he kills me. 

 

Overall, very well done episode. 

[koloagirl]

I thought this episode was going to be boring - but the amazing acting talents of John Carroll Lynch and "Morgan" really sucked me in and I found it a really engrossing episode.

 

It makes a nice change of pace once in awhile to step back from what is going on to do a thoughtful, character driven episode like this - especially with such great actors.

 

I loved all of it except poor Tabitha - but of course as soon as I saw an animal in this show I knew it was doomed! 

 

Bravo to the scriptwriters and actors in this one!

[walnutqueen]

Well, keeping your ID in your wallet works for the guys but now I'm going to have to shamble around with my PURSE 24/7? 

 

So that chick on Project Runway is right - fanny packs will be making a comeback.

[JBody]

So that chick on Project Runway is right - fanny packs will be making a comeback.

Ugh. No. Kill me now, Carol.

[Nashville]

Ugh. No. Kill me now, Carol.

Could be worse.

Could be a merse.

[morgankobi]

Could be worse.

Could be a merse.

How about this here,

It could be a Manssiere.

 

(we're rhyming, right?)

[Nashville]

How about this here,

It could be a Manssiere.

 

(we're rhyming, right?)

 

Sure, if that makes your night.

But if a simple tote is what you lack

Why not just use a gunnysack?

Or bust the bank and get a nice backpack.

[ghoulina]

If Walkers have you on the go, 

Boost your manboobs with the Bro.

[Giselle]

[Iguessnot]

Yeah, Morgan could be all, "I know I look scary but I have a safe place to stay nearby. There is a cage built in the living room but don't worry that was put there by the previous owner to kill a psychopathic killer. Not me, I'm not a psychopathic killer. I'm just a regular killer. So, you want to come home with me?"

On rewatch, at the time of their encounter, Eastman was not dead,only recently bitten, so it was not Morgan's place to offer Eastman's home to others. 

[cheatincheetos]

The Walking Dead is trying to convince me this past 90 minutes was riveting and amazing. LIES.

 

This episode could have been shot and edited into the 60 minute format, easily. That half hour was just sheer indulgence.

90 min lets them sell more ads at the higher rate that TWD commands.