Game Of Thrones In The Media

[nikma]

20 hours ago, Dev F said:

What happened to that version of D&D's writing?

10  years of constant work without any real break. They said they had 2 weeks free per year. That's insane. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by nikma

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, nikma said:

visual medium is using everything to tell a story. words, music, directon, cinematography,.. words are not the only tool.

I like that D&D used cinematic language to tell the story. 

I never said they should be the ONLY tool.

They need to exist though, and they need to make sense.

You can't just have a prisoner being the only one to speak and elect a King because "he has a good story."

You can't just leave someone off screen for a whole season, and have him only speak in idiotic cliches in a monotone and then have EVERYONE agree, "yeah, he should be King."

You can't just TELL us "Jon loves Dany" or have a sex scene and battle scenes.  We need to see, hear, and believe they are in love.

You can't just skip over Jon telling his family about his true origins!  It was huge, and we didn't see OR hear it.

There were barely any conversations this season, and it hurt and it showed.

If all you care about are CGI, battle scenes, random sex, and sword fights?  Hey, it was a lovely season.

If you actually want interesting characters?  They need words.

Quote

And that’s the crux of this final season’s issues: the characters ceased to be characters and instead became means to an end. The council that appears at the end of the episode, which chose Bran as King after a short speech from Tyrion (the last person anyone should trust at that point), was essentially a farce. It should have been a powerful moment, but it wasn’t even clear who everyone was. Ten points to Gryffindor if you are a show-only watcher who remembered or cared who Edmure Tully of Riverrun was, or Robin Arryn of the Vale (not to mention the nameless Dornish prince who didn’t speak — let us not forget that Dorne was free from the crown for longer than Winterfell). The great houses of Westeros haven’t mattered in a long time for the series, and so the significance of this council (where, curiously, three Starks and an Onion Knight each get an equal vote with the Lords and Ladies of the Realm) was completely lost.

http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-finale-explained/

Also, hell, half of the people who watched think Jon deserted the Night's Watch.  Hello? 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Umbelina

[nikma]

Obviously you can when you are adapting outline of the story even original writer doesn't know how to write. As you said, the last season was cliff notes of GRRM's endgame and I never expected it to be anything more than that,

How can D&D flesh this out and make this work in several years if GRRM can't in several decades?

This was the best they could do in their circumstances. If that's not enough for some people, that's fine. 

If better ending is possible, GRRM should write it. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by nikma

[Umbelina]

http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-finale-theories/#bran

‘Game of Thrones’ Guide, Week 6: Every Question We Have After “The Iron Throne”

(I especially like the Bran part here)

[Nashville]

21 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

So Emilia Clarke heard about the fundraiser for her charity (which currently stands at £62,000), and posted a video response. It's pretty adorable.

Can’t say I ever felt much of an emotional connection to Daenerys, but I’m kinda in love with Emilia Clarke. 😄

[nikma]

I still think it's a miracle that the show was this good if you consider how long it was, how hard it was to produce and that they've lost books to adapt and had only some ideas from GRRM about the ending. And that D&D had deadlines and many other constraints as well. I don't think they ever had real time to think about some things, they needed to fix mistakes as they were going, like Dorne in S6. 

And the last 2 books weren't adaptable in a way the first 3 were. And even the first 3 books were really hard to adapt. 

So yeah, for me, the show is a huge achievement. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Can’t say I ever felt much of an emotional connection to Daenerys, but I’m kinda in love with Emilia Clarke. 😄

I agree.

I can't wait to watch her in something else, she's absolutely charming.

[nikma]

I hope D&D cast Lena in their Star Wars. 

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I like that D&D used cinematic language to tell the story. 

The spectacle is great. I loved the dragons myself. They were incredible on the 4K ultra HD. But did we really need 20 minutes of Drogon burning King's Landing? 20 minutes of Arya running around Winterfell and another 15 of her running around King's Landing? Couldn't we have cut some of that for a conversation between the Starks? 

[Umbelina]

Not to mention all the silent walking, the silent chair arranging.

what a waste....sigh

[nikma]

12 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

The spectacle is great. I loved the dragons myself. They were incredible on the 4K ultra HD. But did we really need 20 minutes of Drogon burning King's Landing? 20 minutes of Arya running around Winterfell and another 15 of her running around King's Landing? Couldn't we have cut some of that for a conversation between the Starks? 

I think we needed both of those things. 20 minutes of Drogon burning King's Landing was important. It's really nothing if you think this story lasted more than 73 hours. We heard so much about dragons being dangerous. It was important to finally see that. To see how it feels when dragons are burning everything. And it was graet to watch. Like the end of the world. 

I wouldn't cut anything we got. I would just add more. But that never happened, so, just like with Harry Potter movies, I will enjoy what I got. It's done. For me, there is no point in being angry. This is it. No more no less. 

Adaptation is always  simplified version of the story. It's GRRM's job to give us full story. 

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

the silent chair arranging.

That also had important thematic purpose. Making things right.

Edited May 30, 2019 by nikma

[scrb]

21 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

The spectacle is great. I loved the dragons myself. They were incredible on the 4K ultra HD. But did we really need 20 minutes of Drogon burning King's Landing? 20 minutes of Arya running around Winterfell and another 15 of her running around King's Landing? Couldn't we have cut some of that for a conversation between the Starks? 

4k GoT where?

[nikma]

I agree with what Luke Nieto said here:

This may also explain why some people prefer the early seasons and I don't. I love dialogue, but it's not everything. The later seasons are much better at communicating story through an audiovisual medium, relying more on filmmaking and acting to tell the story, which I love.

As I said in another thread, the early seasons are like Harry Potter 1 and 2 in that way; their filmmaking is practical, plain, just a necessary vehicle to tell the story, which is mainly told in dialogue, since it's adapted from a text. Later seasons learned how to be a TV show.

And what Joe Magician‏ said:

I really do feel elements of the show are left out of analysis entirely because they're not dialogue. And that really misses the point of a visual medium. Costume, music, facial expressions and body language, scene construction, etc.

They all matter, they're all used to tell the story we're watching. But because we're a fandom that loves quoting passages of text at each other and parsing word choice from the books, these get pushed to the side. Dialogue is not the story.

Daenerys having Drogon's wings behind her as she wears black with red is far more effective at communicating how far gone she is than any character explaining it. Or the use of light of the seven before Dany started burning the city.

[raven]

Keep your comments here about GoT in the Media; the discussion about what specifically happened during the season and/or last episode goes to the appropriate episode topic.

[PatsyandEddie]

The chair arranging was another thing that was a call back to previous scenes. 

[nikma]

1 minute ago, raven said:

Keep your comments here about GoT in the Media; the discussion about what specifically happened during the season and/or last episode goes to the appropriate episode topic.

Ok. I will stop now. 

[VCRTracking]

[Umbelina]

[Umbelina]

OK, there is something about this that I do like quite a bit.  Because I do agree with nearly everything he says.

[Fable]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

OK, there is something about this that I do like quite a bit.  Because I do agree with nearly everything he says.

I thought there were some interesting points made, but suggesting people unsubscribe from HBO to protest a show they may have been disappointed seems a bit ridiculous.  There are other shows I watch on HBO, so why should I cut off my nose to spite my face. 

[Bali]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 5:52 PM, Umbelina said:

I never said they should be the ONLY tool.

They need to exist though, and they need to make sense.

You can't just have a prisoner being the only one to speak and elect a King because "he has a good story."

You can't just leave someone off screen for a whole season, and have him only speak in idiotic cliches in a monotone and then have EVERYONE agree, "yeah, he should be King."

You can't just TELL us "Jon loves Dany" or have a sex scene and battle scenes.  We need to see, hear, and believe they are in love.

You can't just skip over Jon telling his family about his true origins!  It was huge, and we didn't see OR hear it.

There were barely any conversations this season, and it hurt and it showed.

If all you care about are CGI, battle scenes, random sex, and sword fights?  Hey, it was a lovely season.

If you actually want interesting characters?  They need words.

http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-finale-explained/

Also, hell, half of the people who watched think Jon deserted the Night's Watch.  Hello? 

Just to add to this: The highest rated episode this season was A Knight of the 7 Kingdoms- because it actually came the closest to carrying on the WHOLE story, not just the action sequences. We got the outline of the story these last 2 seasons, but not the whole story.

[QuinnM]

5 minutes ago, Bali said:

Just to add to this: The highest rated episode this season was A Knight of the 7 Kingdoms- because it actually came the closest to carrying on the WHOLE story, not just the action sequences. We got the outline of the story these last 2 seasons, but not the whole story.

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/game-of-thrones-final-season-sets-record-as-biggest-series-ever-on-sky-in-the-u-k-1203233690/

In the UK that episode was the highest viewership.  That was the lowest viewership in the US.  The highest in the US was the finale.  So I guess 'we' have poor taste.

[glowbug]

My problem with unsubscribing from HBO because of this disasterous final season, aside from there being other good shows on the network, is that I don’t actually blame HBO for season 8. They wanted more episodes. They wanted more seasons. They threw tons and tons of money at the show and D&D in particular. If people are really angry about season 8 then they should refuse to watch anything D&D are associated with. It’s probably a good idea anyway since they’re terrible writers and I can’t imagine them doing anything good with Star Wars or any of their original content. I certainly don’t plan on watching anything they write or produce. 

[loki567]

It's the only time I think the network would not only have been justified in taking a huge hit out of the showrunners' hands, but they probably should have. These guys were not Vince Gilligan. They weren't writers in the traditional sense ("themes are for eighth-grade book reports"). They were producers. Their job was to keep the train on time. At least until they decided they wanted to crash the train. 

D&D wanted to move on. Everybody else in the world wanted GoT to keep going. I know HBO views itself as an auteur paradise, but in this instance, they should have put their foot down, sent D&D off with a nice press release, and given GoT to a new showrunner, whether that be Cogman or whoever. 

Hell, maybe get GRRM. 

[MrsR]

HBO doesn't own the rights. D&D do. GRRM made his deal with them.

[loki567]

George sold it to them, they sold it to HBO. No way a network wouldn't have the ability to take the show from a showrunner, with two guys had no television experience before GoT. 

[MrsR]

No, they rented it from D&D. That's how some shows switch networks. 

A show gets canceled by NBC and later shows up on Netflix. Happens all the time.

HBO maintains airing rights to the finished product but they do NOT own the rights to ASOIAF. 

[loki567]

That sounds like a separate issue to me. I'm not sure where you got your information from, specifically that D&D still own the rights, any sources? Going off of the Game of Thrones wiki (which granted, not very solid): 

Quote

In October 2008 HBO exercised its option to buy the rights to the series and ordered a pilot episode a few weeks later. Casting announcements were made throughout 2009, with Peter Dinklage the first actor formally announced for the series. The pilot episode was filmed in Northern Ireland and Morocco in October and November 2009.

And here's something from Variety when the show was first picked up:

Quote

HBO has acquired the rights to turn George R.R. Martin’s bestselling fantasy series “A Song of Fire & Ice” into a dramatic series to be written and exec produced by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss.

Edited June 8, 2019 by loki567

[Nashville]

My understanding is:

1. D&D originally bought the TV rights to the ASOIAF book series from GRRM.
2. D&D then pitched the GoT project concept to HBO - which was interested enough to kick in some cash to buy an option to acquire the TV rights to the book series from D&D; whether or not HBO chose to exercise the option, however, was dependent upon a not-yet-written script outline of the project.
3. D&D developed the script outline and, in the process, the first draft of the GoT pilot.
4. HBO liked what it saw well enough to exercise its option to buy the rights. 

So at the end HBO did buy the TV rights to the book series from D&D, but it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if the terms of that sale guaranteed D&D producer and showrunner roles in the TV series - roles from which HBO could not fire them without breaching the TV rights acquisition contract and, in so doing, lose the right to broadcast the series.  So HBO and D&D were locked together for the duration of the series, whether they wanted to be or not.

[loki567]

25 minutes ago, Nashville said:

So at the end HBO did buy the TV rights to the book series from D&D, but it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if the terms of that sale guaranteed D&D producer and showrunner roles in the TV series - roles from which HBO could not fire them without breaching the TV rights acquisition contract and, in so doing, lose the right to broadcast the series.  So HBO and D&D were locked together for the duration of the series, whether they wanted to be or not.

Not to sound too jerky, but that's complete speculation on your part, right? I haven't seen any proof that D&D ever actually owned the rights, just that they might have gotten GRRM's permission to pitch networks on adapting the series. 

The only thing I've seen for certain is that HBO owns the rights. And considering HBO's status as the creme de le creme of television networks (at least in 2008), the fact that D&D had no television experience to their name, that ASIOAF wasn't that big of a property back then, it's hard for me to imagine that D&D were able to lock themselves into a sweetheart deal like that. 

[nikma]

It's really funny to think that HBO should have fired creators of their most popular show ever that earned them 47 Emmys. So far.

This was D&D's show. They could have done whatever they wanted with it. Audience can like or dislike their work, but GoT doesn't belong to them and they are entitled to nothing, If D&D wanted Power Rangers to appear in the last season, they would appear

If better ending is possible GRRM should write one. 

HBO had many great shows before GoT and it will have many great shows after GoT(they already got one).  Life will go on. And the freedom they gave their showrunners is the reason why HBO is what it is.

If Cogman was good material for showrunner, HBO wouldn't kill his GoT spin off show in the development phase. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by nikma

[QuinnM]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

It's really funny to think that HBO should have fired creators of their most popular show ever that earned them 47 Emmys. So far.

This show broke all records for viewership.  Not just at HBO but for tv.  So something like 8% of those viewers (and I’m being kind assuming everyone that signed the petition actually saw GoT because petitions usually have a lot of signatures that are just FOMO) don’t like it.  I think the execs at HBO are going to go with the 92%.  That’s where the money is.

So who exactly owns what is a nonissue.  Who made money?  That’s the point.  HBO made money.  D&D made money.  All the actors made money.  All the local folks in Belfast made money.  NI made money.  No one sees any of GoT as a failure but the folks that signed a petition.

[nikma]

It doesn't even matter how many people disliked S8.

Even if 90% of watchers hated it, so be it, this is still D&D's show and they can finish it how and when they want.  They don't owe anyone anything.  The story doesn't belong to fans.   

[bijoux]

8 hours ago, loki567 said:

It's the only time I think the network would not only have been justified in taking a huge hit out of the showrunners' hands, but they probably should have. These guys were not Vince Gilligan. They weren't writers in the traditional sense ("themes are for eighth-grade book reports"). They were producers. Their job was to keep the train on time. At least until they decided they wanted to crash the train. 

D&D wanted to move on. Everybody else in the world wanted GoT to keep going. I know HBO views itself as an auteur paradise, but in this instance, they should have put their foot down, sent D&D off with a nice press release, and given GoT to a new showrunner, whether that be Cogman or whoever. 

Hell, maybe get GRRM.  

This is going off only on Asoiaf, but I really don't believe he has the organisational skills needed to pull that off. 

[nikma]

Person who is not able to write one book in 8 years, wouldn't be able to run a TV show of this scale and size.

[Nashville]

21 hours ago, loki567 said:

Not to sound too jerky, but that's complete speculation on your part, right?

The part I prefaced with “it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if...”?  Sure.  😆

21 hours ago, loki567 said:

I haven't seen any proof that D&D ever actually owned the rights, just that they might have gotten GRRM's permission to pitch networks on adapting the series. 

Really?  Not being sarcastic, but I was under the impression it was a fairly well-known bit of the lore behind GoT.   There are multiple articles on the story of how D&D got the rights - here’s an excerpt from one:  

(Reference: https://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-ending-season-5-producers-interview-1201469516/ )

But back in 2005, screenwriters David Benioff and D.B. Weiss were a pair of untested showrunners who’d fallen in love with George R.R. Martin’s epic series. They pitched themselves to the novelist over a lengthy lunch at Hollywood’s Palm that stretched out into dinner. When they passed his pop quiz — correctly answering “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?”— they won the right to convert the novels into a TV series.

[loki567]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

they won the right to convert the novels into a TV series.

"They won the right" is not "they own the rights." Considering how fiercely protective GRRM is of the property, I  can't imagine he just signed over the rights, willy-nilly. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by loki567

[MrsR]

God Damn.

There are all sorts of rights concerning creative properties. Creative rights, distribution rights, ancillary rights, etc.

Here's an interesting example, Thomas Harris wrote the Hannibal Lecter novels. Red Dragon was made into a film by Michael Mann. Later when Silence was published Dino di Laurentiis and MGM made the film of it.

Now, the creative rights details for each of those deals was very different. While Michael Mann's film was a one-off and Harris maintained the long term rights to his work,  DdL and MGM had a clause in their contract that maintained that they had rights to characters unique to that book. This was so no one but them could make the film of the follow-up book. Clever.

Now fast forward 20 years, MGM is all but dead, DdL is dead, but their rights still live on.  Bryan Fuller wants to make a TV show based on the books and Harris agrees but there's an unusual wrinkle here,  MGM can't/won't sign off on it, so Clarice Starling can't appear in the show. 

When Variety or the Hollywood Reporter prints that, JOE BLOW NETWORK has won/bought the rights to produce, BEST SELLING NOVEL, that's just industry shorthand for "they're making the show." It's not an overall, completely comprehensive look into the legal deal. It doesn't cover options and deadlines, and distribution and ancillary rights or any of the excruciating details clauses and sections of the contract. 

We know D&D made the first deal with GRRM and his publishers. We know they made a deal with HBO. And we can certainly surmise that D&D didn't sign away all their rights because when HBO asked for more S8 episodes and offered the money,  D&D said NO. And you can't say no unless you have the contractual oooomph to back it up.

In summation: Clearly, D&D have creative rights, HBO has distribution rights and GRRM and his publishers have a whole host of rights. And Variety uses a press release style shorthand when reporting.

Edited June 9, 2019 by MrsR

[loki567]

But once again, that's complete speculation. If there was any proof D&D actually owned the rights at some point, any interviews or news reports, I would accept it. There isn't. It's HBO owned the rights and D&D developed it as exec producers. 

HBO wanted more episodes, D&D said no, HBO didn't want to go around their showrunners. That's usually a very commendable thing. But in this particular instance, it was a mistake as these showrunners clearly wanted out years ago and they delivered a substandard product in a shorter amount of time to make that happen. This might ultimately hurt the overall franchise. And HBO is still very much basing its future around this franchise. 

[Minneapple]

44 minutes ago, loki567 said:

And HBO is still very much basing its future around this franchise. 

I doubt it. I mean HBO has been around for decades and Game of Thrones or no, it will still be around for decades to come. 

Also, I'm fairly certain the showrunners said long ago they only wanted to do 7 or 8 seasons. I don't believe they ever wanted to do more than eight. 

[raven]

Get back on topic, please.

[Dame sans merci]

So, Deadline are reporting that GOT will be returning to San Diego Comic-con this year for an (ahem) 'triumphant celebration' of the series.

D&D are apparently not likely to attend...

My reaction is basically the Chrissy Teigen grimacing GIF. This seems...unwise.

[loki567]

I don't think the cast and crew will get rough treatment. The only issue about the final season was the writing. It probably will be a very lovely goodbye.

Although I would give D&D some credit if they did show up. 

[PatsyandEddie]

Came across this on Apple news:

https://apple.news/A8Gy3M5j7SOKXNZjmbknNIA

It’s an explanation about the music choices that were developed by RD

[Solace247]

On 5/30/2019 at 5:48 PM, nikma said:

10  years of constant work without any real break. They said they had 2 weeks free per year. That's insane. 

There’s always delegating—but that takes a desire to share the responsibility and the recognition. There’s a reason EP’s usually have a robust writers room (an absolute must as a rookie show-runner IMO), production responsibilities take up the lion’s share of your time.

[benteen]

Just like GRRM won't delegate despite the fact that he's lost interest and has a severe case of writer's block.

Edited June 14, 2019 by benteen

[PatsyandEddie]

https://apple.news/AYV_bazUnQAecHloDs_FOSQ

How Sapochnik pissed of D&D when he first joined the crew. 

[Affogato]

On 5/30/2019 at 7:04 PM, Umbelina said:

Not to mention all the silent walking, the silent chair arranging.

what a waste....sigh

I personally loved the chair dragging. 

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

I personally loved the chair dragging. 

I would have too, if it wasn't during the almost entirely silent FINALE of the damn show, where nearly every single question they raised was left unanswered.

[enoughcats]

Vanity Fair looks at what other things Martin is doing, some related to GOT, some vaguely related to GOT, some not, and what's keeping that pesky book from being published