S05.E05: Dreamcatcher

[patchwork]

I wonder if it was Merlin sending those visions to Emma's dreamcatcher? 

 

I kinda like that Emma's DO thing, like Rumple and his straw spinning thing, is the first magic trick Gold ever taught her. Although I side eye the idea that they're suddenly dark magic.

 

There needed to be a transition scene between Emma frolicking in the meadow roses with Hook to her pulling out hearts believable. Unsurprising for this show but they threw over cohesive storytelling in favour of a gotcher moment. 

[PixiePaws1]

***Note to self*** Don't put fist through wall every time 'show' tries to convince me FuckWitFire 1 )was a hero, 2) was a genuine, nice guy 3) had no choice other than to emotionally eviscerate Emma or 4) didn't off himself because he was a blue ribbon idiot -'show' is suffering from chronic denial about this moron and allowing it to upset you doesn't get your point across to 'show' and you will only break your hand . . . ! ***REPEAT to self 3 times a day***

If I squint while looking sideways around a corner while standing on my head, I could almost convince myself that Emma ripped out Violet's heart because by taking away Violet's agency she was absolving Violet from hurting Henry and Emma was taking on that guilt . . . alas I could NOT make it work. Emma is way too comfortable with ripping out hearts. Given that she knows what Killian went through with his heart ripped out AND also by the Dark One, I find this a truly heinous act. I don't care about the motivation . . .Violet seems a nice girl and this was just wrong. If the new writer thought seeing Henry's heart broken was going to upset a lot of people . .. I didn't feel it BUT my heart IS breaking for Emma having fallen so far so fast. The only saving grace was Kilian didn't actually witness it!

And yes... un-sanded parents . and thoroughly hyped up on Dark magic Emma - the writers are doing a good job of making it appear Emma chose the Darkness just because she freaking bloody LOVES it !!! Applause for JMO for that look of conflicted guilt when Merlin said she had to be ready . . .whch BTW just screamed signpost to me that he was checking where she was on the Dark-O-Meter . . .and disappointed she wasn't further along . . .

Hypocritical Regina . .eh...so what else is new? But I did whoop when she brought up what so many of us guessed . . .suspecting Emma let the damn horse out herself.

When A&E said that there would be many wrong decisions/actions taken cause they looked like the right choice, I automatically thought it would be those trying to save Emma. . . . I am beginning to think Emma might be the worst offender. I don't want this for Emma.

I did find it interesting that Emma had white magic coming out one hand and black magic out the other when she freed Merlin...not gold not grey.

pure white and pure black.

Edited October 26, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[juice318]

 

And despite the mediocrity of the disjointed mess in that 2/3 of the episode, nothing compared to the utter irritation of the 1/3 with Merida and Rumple.  So if Rumple fights in self-defence, he automatically becomes a "hero"?  

The scenes with Merida & Rumple actually reminded me of The Princess Bride, e.g., sobering up a verrrrrry drunk Inigo so he can take revenge on the six-figured man, and helping a "mostly dead" Westley gain back his strength to fight the Prince. Too bad the writing lacked TPB's brilliant humor.

[Mari]

He'd more likely be third in line to the throne behind his uncle Prince Neal and Emma.  While the show has never been clear about whether it applies here, the rule of succession in medieval royalty was that the throne always passed directly to the first viable male heir before passing to any prospective female heirs regardless of actual birth order.  That's why Edward VI directly succeeded Henry VII in England ahead of Mary I and Elizabeth I, despite the fact that they were actually born first.  If that's the rule in the Enchanted Forest, Prince Neal would ascend to the throne before Emma did, even though she's the firstborn.

True.

 

I just figured since the Enchanted Forest had so many queens running around, who are actually ruling, and that Leopold's logic for remarrying after Eva died was "Mother for Snow" not "Boy for throne," that might not apply in the Enchanted Forest.

[ImogenLeFay]

When they first said they needed the tear of lost love, I was so sure they'd break out Lancelot and get him to cry over Guinevere. But sure, I guess a teenage crush works just as well. That makes total sense.

 

Also, interesting that Regina still says Cora wanted to do what was best for her child, paralleling that with Emma using the same excuse. Emma didn't do it for the best of Henry, to try to scare of a girl she thought unsuitable. She did it for the greater good and to get Merlin out to save everybody - from herself. As for Cora? Does Regina still believe her mother did anything that wasn't 100% for the benefit of Cora? Perspective, woman. Get some.

[OnceUponAJen]

^I think Regina is still blind to her mother's driving ambition. She really was doing it all for herself, so that she would never have to feel powerless again.

[ABitOFluff]

Hook was fine With Cora Massacring a Village, Hit Belle Repeatdley and shot her in the back almost killing her and once tried to Kill Emma. I love how He got so easily forgiven. Oh that's right he's hot(NOT) so he gets a pass. It just angers me that Bae gets so much scorn when Hook did worse deeds

No one here has ever painted Hook as a choirboy in his pirate life. The writers, however, seem to be doing just that with Nealfire, and it's not working for some of us. 

[HoodlumSheep]

I thought we were talking about Neal, not Hook? Hook was a bad guy, no question. But you know what this show doesn't consistently do with his character? Try to make me believe he was a saint, which they do all the livelong day with Neal. I only scorn Neal because the show never does. Then again, I'm someone who didn't want Neal to die. I wanted him to live and make up for his deeds and have the show acknowledge what he did with no "I had no choice" excuses, and since his death, the show has done exactly the opposite. Probably because it was easier to kill him than to fix him.

And unlike what Emma said about Neal (always being himself), Hook has been honest about being a villain. A lot of the problems people are having with with Neal being mentioned are because the show is trying to whitewash what he did to Emma. I'm totally okay with Henry remembering and missing his dad, I'm fine with Emma remembering her first love. It's the whitewashing that's the problem.

[OnceUponAJen]

Why did Emma have Violet's dream catcher in the box on the table? Was she using it to watch Violet's memories of Henry because Emma was missing him?

They showed Emma crying over that particular dreamcatcher earlier. I think she wanted them to find it, and knew that they would. And probably knew Henry would find out about it.

[kili]

Sir Morgan's behaviour was like night and day between the two realms. Any chance that Emma took his heart too to make him overly harsh to Henry? Granted, the difference between this world and that one was that Henry achieved something rather than trashing Sir Morgan's barn while messing around (i was worried he was going to stab Violet's horse). 

[YaddaYadda]

They showed Emma crying over that particular dreamcatcher earlier. I think she wanted them to find it, and knew that they would. And probably knew Henry would find out about it.

 

She ripped a 13 year old girl's heart out and broke her son's heart in the process. It seems like Emma wants a lot of things. She didn't hide the door or the sword. She told Hook in 5x03 that with her magic, she could hide anything from his prying eyes. He started asking her about the door, so she had to know it was only a matter of time before he ended up in her basement.

 

It doesn't seem like she's trying to hide the bigger picture, which is what Excalibur is.

 

Merida is such a waste of time. So the plan to turn Gold brave is by using his anger? How does that keep his heart pure? 

 

And because it can't be said enough, I am forever grateful for Robert Carlyle and his acting. Always.

 

About the dreamcatcher, now it takes a lot of dark magic to power it up? Emma used a dreamcatcher before using her light magic. 

[sharky]

Figured out what's been bugging me about Merida. She's not needed. Just like 4B where they threw in way too many characters, they've done the same with Merida. This season would've been just fine without her -- Emma could've easily trained Gold and made a bear and whatever. The writers need to pull back on the toys they're allowing themselves to play with.

[kirkola]

The simplest answer to Merida and the story book, is that Emma sent Merida to the story book.  The heart can act not just as a "do what I say", but also as a radio (see poor unfortunate Graham arresting Emma for drunk driving in Season 1...I think).  A scene showing Emma directing Merida to the book would have been nice, but the team is notorious for leaving out scenes that would clear things up.

[Camera One]

How does Rumple becoming "brave" develop his character in any way?  Too bad Anna didn't come waltzing in to teach him to sword fight and stand up to his enemies.

[Primetimer]

Once Upon A Time delivers possibly the best episode of the season so far, despite a heavy focus on Henry...learning to use a sword.

Read the story

[OnceUponAJen]

Is anyone else finding it funny that Arthur can never unsheath Excalibur in front of anyone, because no-one knows it's broken? He's pulled the thing out halfway a few times this season, and it's making me chuckle when he does it.

[Curio]

PreviouslyTV: Once Upon A Time delivers possibly the best episode of the season so far...

 

The reviewer and I are on two totally different wavelengths...

Edited October 26, 2015 by Curio

[LizaD]

I only watched the Merlin and Rump clips so can't comment on everything else but damn Merlin is hot. I don't even care what he's doing. He can just stand there and look pretty and it's still 99.9% better than what the other characters are doing.

 

 

How does Rumple becoming "brave" develop his character in any way?  Too bad Anna didn't come waltzing in to teach him to sword fight and stand up to his enemies.

 

And you know Rump has really taken a long hard fall when they give him one of Charming's story and Charming still got the better deal. At least Anna was perky and earnest. Merida's just a cranky bitch. Robert is aces but the writing fails but what else is new. Why does it have to be so extreme between sparkly DO and coward Rump? I don't find it believable that Rump just reverted back to pre-DO days. He still has all his memories and his experience as the DO for 3 centuries. That changes a person whether or not they have the power.

[snarkybelle]

She ripped a 13 year old girl's heart out and broke her son's heart in the process. It seems like Emma wants a lot of things. She didn't hide the door or the sword. She told Hook in 5x03 that with her magic, she could hide anything from his prying eyes. He started asking her about the door, so she had to know it was only a matter of time before he ended up in her basement.

 

I saw lots of possible foreshadowing in the episode.  Merlin failed at destroying the Dark One because of his broken heart.  Most likely his love was the Dark One so knowing that Emma needs to make her true love stab her with the dagger or Excalibur so the Dark One will be gone forever.  I think Emma will make one of her loved ones do this which was why since they’ve been back to Storybrooke, Emma has crushed, metaphorically, the hearts of both Killian and Henry.  I predict that Dark Emma in Storybrooke is manipulating them all to “want” or “need” to destroy her so that they could destroy the Darkness inside of her, thus sacrificing herself again for the greater good. My poor baby Emma!

 

When Emma stroked Mary Margaret’s cheek in the first epi, it was chilling. Foreshadowing anyone?  Most likely Emma’s Dark One persona in Storybrooke will culminate in whatever actions Snow did to Emma in Camelot. 

 

We have seen that Regina will not sacrifice her own happiness for Emma despite the fact that Emma sacrificed herself and turned into the Dark One so she could bring back everyone’s happy endings.  Mary Margaret and David are pretty much useless when helping their daughter and they know it.  David had nightmares that he failed her daughter.  Mary Margaret can’t keep the secrets she needs to keep in order to protect her daughter.  They both fell into a trap because of their arrogance. 

Hopefully this will all turn around in the end to actually help Emma instead of destroy her.  They will find a way to destroy the Dark One and keep Emma safe. But instead of Emma dealing with the repercussions of what she did to everyone else as the Dark One, I'm hoping her family will be the ones dealing with the repercussions of their actions.  Emma has had enough to deal with.  She has been too much of the sacrificial lamb already.

[YaddaYadda]

Am I the only one who wondered what the Sons of the Harpy was doing with Merlin in the opening scene?

[mjgchick]

I laughed at Henrys heartache as well as Merida dragging Rumples ass. I just get so giddy anytime someone puts Rumple down. He was so smug in S4 that I just refuse to feel awful for him.

As for Henry, if he can't see that what Emma did to Violet didn't break her heart than he really doesn't know Emma as much as he thinks he did. Same with Regina. Cora gleefully ripped Daniels heart out and killed him in front of her. Emma did not look like someone who enjoyed that. If Regina was as smart as she think she is she'd know that Emma HAD to do it. Unlike Regina Emma gave the poor girl her heart back and she seems smitten by Henry.

I do wonder what made Emma consume the darkness. It has to be something she found out about Excalibur and the dagger being together probably means something bad happens to her loved one. She became the Dark one to protect her loved ones and she's probably still doing it. I'm guessing Merlin is in on it.

Also her parents probably betrayed her on their own actions over Arthur mindraping them. Yikes.

Forever Team Emma honestly. She's a kicked puppy that keeps getting repeatedly kicked for the greater goodm

Edited October 26, 2015 by mjgchick

[Souris]

The reviewer and I are on two totally different wavelengths...

 

I discovered that a long time ago, which is why I don't bother reading the reviews anymore.

[snarkybelle]

I've been wondering now if Emma really ripped Violet's heart out or if she just changed the memory.  What if Violet really doesn't feel the same way about Henry and really broke his heart?  I figured Dark Emma was crying because she was changing the memory and she knew Regina would find it and it would turn Henry against her.  

[Curio]

I see some people bothered with Emma bringing up Neal but people need to remember this episode is all about first loves. So for Emma and Regina to try to connect with Henry in the situation he's going through they need to bring up their first loves which were Neal and Daniel. There's a huge difference between Neal/Daniel and Hook/Robin. It's not just that one is true love (H/R) while the other isn't (N/D).

Generally speaking, I wasn’t bothered by the Neal mentions, and usually I'm all for continuity shout outs. I also happened to enjoy his character for the most part and didn’t want him to die. But what bothered me in this episode is how the writing became so morphed around him to perpetuate this image that he was an awesome person who did no wrong.

“Changing so someone likes you never works. I mean, I liked your dad because he was always himself.”

This was said about the character Neal Cassidy, a con man whose name wasn’t even Neal Cassidy...it was Baelfire. Literally the entire time Emma dated Neal, he was pretending to be someone he wasn’t and he had changed his entire identity before Emma met him. I’m not saying it was a bad thing that Bae wanted to create a new persona for himself in the Land Without Magic (it was probably necessary just to get a job and pay taxes), but don’t make Emma of all people say he was always himself around her when that’s blatantly not true. Emma and Neal even pretended to be other people whenever they did scams and stole from convenience stores!

 

If this was a more intelligent show, I’d actually give the writers credit for being subtle with Emma’s manipulation as the Dark One and maybe she twisted the truth about Neal to Henry because she wanted him to fail with Violet. Emma of all people should know that changing for the better can make a difference in a relationship, because otherwise she wouldn’t be with Hook. But what bothers me is that the writers probably meant for Emma to say that line without any ounce of irony.

 

And then there was the part with Henry telling Emma about the Yaz song and how Neal mentioned that "it always worked." When exactly did Neal have the time to tell Henry that information? I don't even think there was time for Neal to hang out with Henry during the Neverland arc, so that means Neal most likely told him about the Yaz song during Season 2. And during that time, Henry knew Neal was dating Tamara. So that means Neal gave Henry the advice about "Only You" while Tamara was still his girlfriend, so either Henry was being weird and used the same advice Neal used on Tamara, or Neal and Henry had an offscreen conversation about how Neal wooed Emma even though Tamara was still in the picture.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Curio

[kili]

So that means Neal gave Henry the advice about "Only You" while Tamara was in the picture, so either Henry was being weird and used the same advice Neal used on Tamara, or Neal and Henry had an offscreen conversation about how Neal wooed Emma even though Tamara was still in the picture.

Neal said that the song "always works" and Emma admits that he used it on her, so its likely he used it on both Tamara and Emma (although, since Tamara was conning him, it was predetermined it would work, but he did't know that). And he'd just met his son and his was 11. 

[mjgchick]

So he used it on a runaway teen whose had no one to love her and a woman who was just using him. Of course rhw teenager fell for it.

[maryle]

The most boring this year.

I do not care for Henry vanilla unoriginal teen crush. I see better teenager love story in almost every others show and they should have begun with a friendship story for him, anyway!

Jared is not a charismatic actor it is a desservice to him to put all the weight of an episode on his shoulder at this stade.

I am neutral on the Emma- Regina scene here. Not really, care but nothing that make me scream either. So, I guess as good as it can get for me.

All the Rumple Merida story is really annoying me. I just hate all this make Rumple the greatest hero ever. Not buying it, not caring for it and at the end, we now is not the owner of Excalibur. So it is because of fanservice or because they do, not what to do with him anymore. So why not have Merida gave him (the show resident coward) Brave lesson!

next week look ok, but I do hope a little more CS between all the Rumpbelle feast.

[Shanna Marie]

Neal said that the song "always works" and Emma admits that he used it on her, so its likely he used it on both Tamara and Emma (although, since Tamara was conning him, it was predetermined it would work, but he did't know that). And he'd just met his son and his was 11.

And he managed to get around to sharing pickup techniques with his 11-year-old son he just learned existed in the maybe five days he got to spend with him, when he had no idea that this was all the time he'd have and he'd have to fit in everything. I think this is a case of the writers just throwing in something they thought would be an "awww" moment without pausing to think of how it would really have happened.

 

So the worst heartbreak of all, so powerful it's capable of breaking a centuries old spell, is getting Friendzoned by a girl you barely know? Did a MRA write this episode?

That's what isn't sitting so well with me. Henry comes across as a bit of a "Nice Guy" in that he seems to feel everything went horribly wrong (and that he was robbed, considering his later reaction to learning what happened) when the girl he was being nice to didn't want to date him and sincerely wanted to be friends with him. Then he went on to complain that what she really wanted was a hero who could swordfight when she said no such thing. It was basically "she's not interested in nice guys, just macho jerks." That kid has a serious fixation with being seen as a hero, and the way he goes about it makes it sound like he wants the glory of being seen as a hero rather than actually just wanting to have the courage to do the right thing when it becomes necessary and not caring whether or not anyone knows about it. I guess he takes after his grandfather there. And he's thirteen. There really shouldn't be that big a difference at that age between dating and being friends. He probably shouldn't even be "dating" at all. If they're still hanging out together and talking, does it matter what label they put on it? Why are the adults in his life being so eager to give him dating advice and encouraging all this? I can kind of see it with Hook, since he's from another world where you can get drafted into the military at 14 and he doesn't have the Storybrooke download, but you'd think former teen mom Emma and Regina, who knows he came from a teen mom, would be all "hold it right there, you're not dating until you've finished college -- or at least until you're in high school." And they definitely shouldn't be encouraging a relationship with someone from a different world -- what happens when Henry returns home? Is Violet going to leave her family? Is Henry going to stay?

 

So, basically, with what we saw of the situation, the more realistic reaction would have been "okay, cool, friends is good, let's watch Commando." Not heartbroken tears.

 

I didn't think Sir Morgan's reaction was even all that much, considering that they're in another world. He wasn't demanding that Henry be a hero, just that he have life skills and prospects suitable for surviving in that world. It would be like the way a dad would react in our world to a teenager who's illiterate and not going to school.

 

I'm glad the spell on Snowing didn't last, but it continues their pattern of making the previous episode a moot point before the next one. 

 

There needed to be a transition scene between Emma frolicking in the meadow roses with Hook to her pulling out hearts believable. Unsurprising for this show but they threw over cohesive storytelling in favour of a gotcher moment.

It's like they're afraid of suspense and tension. Or like dealing with a very small child: "We got you a surprise! It's a <whatever>!" So the sanding made no difference. Henry, Hook, and Emma being away when it happened apparently made no difference. We didn't get to see Emma coming back from her happy date with Hook to find her Stepford Parents. And didn't they pick up immediately from the cliffhanger, with the Charmings telling Regina they needed the dagger? Which was while Emma and Hook were away. So did Emma teleport back and instantly start digging through the dreamcatchers?

 

This is really one of those cases where what happened in my head based on their setup was far more interesting than what happened on the screen. I was worried about what it meant about Hook when it was the tear of someone who lost a love to the Dark One that could break the spell, and we hadn't seen Hook in Camelot through the whole episode. I was expecting the spell not to work this time, and Emma finally got it to work by going all dark to break Hook's heart. And I was expecting a lot more tension and drama about the Stepford Charmings, the sharp contrast from Emma's day out with Hook to coming back and realizing she couldn't trust her parents. Not for the next time we saw her for her to be already in on it, poof them into irrelevance, and then poof, Merlin fixed it all.

[FormerMod-a1]

Re: Merida and Rumple - I still don't know how learning to fight with a sword means someone is brave.  Of course, I'm also one that thinks pre-Dark One Rumple wasn't really a coward either.  I thought it took incredible bravery (guts) to walk onto a pirate ship, where every one of them could easily kill him, and ask about Milah.  No, he wouldn't fight, but he knew it was futile.  But that somehow made him a coward, too.

[orza]

Henry is a popular character among an important viewer segment, namely young teens. He is their POV character so it is smart to have the occasional episodes that focus on Henry. My 13-year-old niece and her friends were on the verge of swooning and madly texting each other about their big feels the entire hour.

 

I can believe that Henry's tears could break the curse. Kids are ruled by hormones and have big feelings at that age, and it does happen that some kids are heartbroken about any kind of rejection, no matter how inconsequential it may seem to adults.

[Curio]

I don't mind the idea of focusing an episode on the tween love angle, but can it not be filled with wooden performances and cringe-worthy dialogue? That's all I ask for.

[kili]

Re: Merida and Rumple - I still don't know how learning to fight with a sword means someone is brave.

I expect Emma is going to chuck a chair at Merida at any moment (Whiplash). Merida is clearly one of those instinctive learners who has absolutely no idea how one gets to be brave because she has always been brave. I have no earthly idea why she thinks threatening to break a treasured belonging and humiliating somebody is going to make them brave.  It's probably just going to cause psychological problems. Maybe Merida is screwing up on purpose.

[Amerilla]

Why does it have to be so extreme between sparkly DO and coward Rump? I don't find it believable that Rump just reverted back to pre-DO days. He still has all his memories and his experience as the DO for 3 centuries. That changes a person whether or not they have the power.

 

 

 

Re: Merida and Rumple - I still don't know how learning to fight with a sword means someone is brave.  Of course, I'm also one that thinks pre-Dark One Rumple wasn't really a coward either.  I thought it took incredible bravery (guts) to walk onto a pirate ship, where every one of them could easily kill him, and ask about Milah.  No, he wouldn't fight, but he knew it was futile.  But that somehow made him a coward, too.

 

To me, they've been fairly consistent in terms of DO and non-DO Rumpel. (Or maybe I should just give all the praise to Robert for crafting a mostly consistent character even when the writing has let  him dangle.) Even though we've seen him instinctually make decisive choices and action, non-DO Rumpel perceives himself as a coward - both because he's been unable to perform when the chips were down and because every person he has loved has hurled the C-word at him at one point or another. This has been his view of himself for hundreds of years. The only thing that has alleviated that is the Dark One, which was shown from S1 to be an entity that bound itself to him. (I always think of it like the Symbiote from Spider-man...the DO curse works like a parasite that has formed a symbiotic bond with the host organism.) That's why the dichotomy between DO and non-DO Rumpel has always been so marked, to make it clear that the man and DO are very separate beings.

 

To non-DO Rumpel, all those memories and experiences gained under the DO curse don't change that view of himself as fundamentally, constitutionally weak. The Dark One was the one who did all  Stripped of that, it's actually pretty believable that an incapacitating feeling of powerlessness and fear would naturally take over. Were the show a bit more leisurely in its approach to character development, they could take their time and show a non-magical Rumpel move past that crippling fear and into something much more whole...but, instead we're going to get quick, dirty, nonsensical development that will ultimately end up not meaning shit because some other shocking!!twist!!! will over-ride it.

 

In terms of what constitutes "bravery," it's TS;TW. Common words like "brave," "hero," "evil" all mean different things than their actual definitions.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Amerilla

[KingOfHearts]

Regina and Emma were not good tutors for Henry in the love department. They used Daniel and Neal as examples... why not Hook and Robin? Oh that's right. Fan service. I forgot.

[Mathius]

The only thing that has alleviated that is the Dark One, which was shown from S1 to be an entity that bound itself to him. (I always think of it like the Symbiote from Spider-man...the DO curse works like a parasite that has formed a symbiotic bond with the host organism.)

 

That's pretty much how the show views it too.  The darkness entity even LOOKS just like the Symbiote.

 

I thought it took incredible bravery (guts) to walk onto a pirate ship, where every one of them could easily kill him, and ask about Milah.  No, he wouldn't fight, but he knew it was futile.  But that somehow made him a coward, too.

 

It was only futile because he believed it to be, Merida demonstrated to him in this episode that even with his limp, he could be a formidable fighter with the right motivation, which his wife's safety really should have been.  As Amerilla said, his problem is that he was a weak coward not naturally but because he had internalized that "fact" so much that he just couldn't bring himself to believe any differently.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Mathius

[Curio]

Regina and Emma were not good tutors for Henry in the love department. They used Daniel and Neal as examples... why not Hook and Robin? Oh that's right. Fan service. I forgot.

Why were they even supporting Henry's puppy love to begin with? He's only thirteen! I would have much preferred a scene where Emma and Regina just bust up laughing and then were like, "Henry, just stop. Just...no. Don't even go there. You can be friends with her, but do us all a favor and please don't jump straight into dating. It's creepy to want to date her this quick when you don't even know her that well. The majority of childhood romances never work out anyways. We're doing you a favor when we say no dating until you have a driver's license."

Edited October 26, 2015 by Curio

[orza]

Clearly you don't have teenage children. :). Seriously, that is a terrible way to approach things and bad parenting. Making fun of your child's very real feelings is cruel and a sure way to alienate him, lose his trust and drive him to pursue whatever it is you are trying to prevent.

[mjgchick]

Well to be fair this was more about first loves. It makes sense for Emma to talk about Henry's dad and the only reason why they mentioned Daniel was so we can have Emma feel sorry for Regina. lol

[kirkola]

Regina and Emma were not good tutors for Henry in the love department. They used Daniel and Neal as examples... why not Hook and Robin? Oh that's right. Fan service. I forgot.

Because Daniel and Neal represent "first love" and not necessarily "true love".

[Curio]

Seriously, that is a terrible way to approach things and bad parenting.

 

Of course it's a terrible approach, but it would have been a lot more entertaining to watch than whatever we got in this episode. ;) Plus, in a series where some parenting gems include: sending children in a tree trunk to a different realm, sending a child to therapy for something that's actually the adult's problem, mind-erasing a child's memory of something bad an adult did to him, attempting to kill a child's biological mother, and a parent admitting that their child isn't what they were hoping for...telling a 13-year-old he isn't allowed to date until he's in high school doesn't sound like a terrible idea.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

Henry's parents didn't have to laugh at him, but I don't think it was a good idea to encourage him to be anything more than a friend or try to give him dating or pick-up tips when he's 13. I remember that I mostly had crushes from afar at that age. There were boys I was mad about, but I'm not sure I'd have known what to do about it if one of them had noticed my existence. My mom listened patiently to my endless sighing, and she was good about asking me why I liked a guy (or thought I did) to make me start thinking more rationally. But I don't remember her once telling me I should talk to a guy in a certain way, ask him out, or do anything to impress him. So Emma and Regina shouldn't have laughed at him, but maybe they could have asked him to tell them about what he liked about Violet, what he wanted from her that he couldn't have with their current relationship, where he saw things going. Violet's father's objections were more about Henry's potential value as a husband, and if that's not what he plans to be or has hopes of being (considering the different worlds thing and being 13), then do they really matter? Couldn't he wow her with his modern American stuff without making it into a "date"? That's where I think bad parenting comes in. The adults in Henry's life are acting like those who insist on their kid having a date and renting a limo for the eighth-grade prom.

 

I actually didn't mind Regina in this episode. They used her to good effect. But as usual, some of the writing around Regina is bothersome. Like, did they really need to have Emma be quite so shocked by what she saw of Regina's memory of Daniel's death? Did she really not know what happened, so that this was a shock to her? Did we need to have her validate that Regina's pain really is the worst pain ever felt by anyone? I was kind of hoping for Going-Dark Emma to say something like, "So, that's what happened? What the hell did that have to do with my mother? It was Cora who ruined your life."

 

Speaking of "you ruined my life," can we declare a moratorium on that phrase being uttered by adults? It makes them sound like petulant teenagers who are mad because their parents grounded them on homecoming weekend. About the only person who can say it without sounding like she's getting into extreme hyperbole is Emma, whose life actually was ruined, due to no fault of her own, and you can't even blame her reactions to what happened because she probably reacted better to her circumstances than most people would. With everyone else, they had something bad happen to them, but they ruined their own lives in response. Arthur sounded particularly petulant in his "you ruined my life" at Merlin, when Merlin didn't make him do anything. He told him something, but Arthur ruined his own life in the way he dealt with that information.

[mjgchick]

I loves Merlin's "Oh honey." look towards Arthur.

I think I laughed at all the inappropriate moments this episode.

[FormerMod-a1]

It was only futile because he believed it to be, Merida demonstrated to him in this episode that even with his limp, he could be a formidable fighter with the right motivation, which his wife's safety really should have been.  As Amerilla said, his problem is that he was a weak coward not naturally but because he had internalized that "fact" so much that he just couldn't bring himself to believe any differently.

 

He was not trained.  Hook would have won easily, even if he had picked up the sword.  Plus there was the entire crew - no way he would have won.  All that would have accomplished is being injured or killed due to fighting.  As it was he was risking his life just walking onto the ship.  However, that's not in this episode so that's all I'll say about it here.  ETA: I do agree that he sees himself as a coward though, regardless of whether he has acted bravely or not.

 

I just think "sword fighting anyone  = bravery" is a stupid concept, but the writers keep using it.  In this episode Henry wasn't worthy of his crush because he was a writer and not a sword fighter.

[Rumsy4]

It was only futile because he believed it to be, Merida demonstrated to him in this episode that even with his limp, he could be a formidable fighter with the right motivation, which his wife's safety really should have been.

He could hardly risk leaving his son without either parent.

[Curio]

I just think "sword fighting anyone  = bravery" is a stupid concept, but the writers keep using it.  In this episode Henry wasn't worthy of his crush because he was a writer and not a sword fighter.

 

I thought that was a weird message to send, too. With all the talk about "being yourself" and Violet's dad making fun of Henry for being a writer and not doing something more "manly" with his time, wouldn't a better resolution to that plot be something where Henry uses his writing skills to help find the horse? Henry could have written a very touching story about the horse and posted his written words all around town, and then someone could have been moved by the story and contacted Henry about seeing a horse near the pumpkin patch. Henry and Violet could have gone off and found the horse together, and when she asks how he knew where to find him, Henry could whip out the story he wrote, Violet could read it, and then she'd be so moved by the words he wrote that she gives him a kiss. 

 

But no, Henry has to be a macho man hero and ride a horse into the parade and needs to brush up on his sword fighting.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Curio

[DeLurker]

Harold and Maude?  Just wow.  And there's a certain darkness about Harold and Maude that I like, but not exactly 13 year old viewing material.

 

Being put into the friend zone by your crush is hardly heartbreak of spellbreaking proportions.

 

Too much Henry, but there's always too much Henry.

[Serena]

Honestly, this reminds me of a comment Jennifer Morrison made a couple of weeks ago at New York Comic Con re: Henry. "You ever wonder what Adam and Eddy were like at that age?". The storyline of a "writer" getting friendzoned by a girl, but actually it was a dark evil at play!, and in the end he's a hero and the girl really likes him and Mom Is SO MEAAAAN! Plus old ass songs and movies no 13-year-old actually knows = Totally Self Insert. I think I didn't mind Regina in this episode because for once, there was a bigger Mary Sue than her.

[Curio]

I know that the Apprentice declared Henry the new Author and he wrote whatever to get them all back to Storybrooke, but seriously...Henry, you have to write something to be a writer. 

 

Henry keeps calling himself a writer, but we've never seen him write anything substantial. I'd laugh if he's actually terrible at grammar and Merlin forces him to go to some writing workshops.

 

But as usual, some of the writing around Regina is bothersome. Like, did they really need to have Emma be quite so shocked by what she saw of Regina's memory of Daniel's death? Did she really not know what happened, so that this was a shock to her? Did we need to have her validate that Regina's pain really is the worst pain ever felt by anyone?

 

The most annoying part about all of that is that they just replayed the Season 1 scene on screen exactly as it was with very few edits or cuts to make the scene go faster. Daniel's death isn't brand new information, so trust the audience's IQ levels because we remember what happened during that scene! We don't have to see every single second of the original, and neither does Emma. Just watching a snippet of the Cora/Daniel scene through the dreamcatcher circle would have sufficed. We spent more time watching Regina watch a flashback of a scene that has already aired on the show than we got to spend on a proper resolution to the 4x11 heart arc last season. Regina's pain truly is the worst and most important pain ever, apparently. We'll likely never get a reversal scene where Regina watches a crappy vignette from Emma's childhood that Regina was actually somewhat responsible for.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Curio

[Mathius]

The most annoying part about all of that is that they just replayed the Season 1 scene on screen exactly as it was with very few edits or cuts to make the scene go faster. Daniel's death isn't brand new information, so trust the audience's IQ levels because we remember what happened during that scene! We don't have to see every single second of the original, and neither does Emma. Just watching a snippet of the Cora/Daniel scene though the dreamcatcher circle would have sufficed. We spent more time watching Regina watch a flashback of a scene that has already aired on the show than we got to spend on a proper resolution to the 4x11 heart arc last season. Regina's pain truly is the worst and most important pain ever, apparently. We'll likely never get a reversal scene where Regina watches a crappy vignette from Emma's childhood that Regina was actually somewhat responsible for.

 

Yep.  Let's not forget Emma's remark upon seeing it: "Regina, I'm so sorry. I never knew..."

 

Reminder: Adam and Eddy themselves wrote this episode's script.

[mjgchick]

We kind of did where Emma is living with Ingrid and those kids are bullying her a bit. Snow was happy to see teen Emma and Regina just cuts her off. lol