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S05.E05: Dreamcatcher


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Henry keeps calling himself a writer, but we've never seen him write anything substantial.

Does he even really like books? I remember that when he didn't have his memories, Snow was trying to get him excited about going to the library, but he mostly just buries himself in that one storybook and comic books. He's shown no signs of having writerly ambitions. We haven't seen him sitting up at night to write out the events that happened to keep his own chronicles (hmm, that might have come in handy for memory spells). At least Isaac was trying to be a writer before he became the Author. Henry seems to be the Author because he was in that scene where they needed one.

 

It did seem like in Camelot Regina and Emma weren't trying to say he had to fight with a sword to be a hero. They were pointing out that he had other things going for him. And as I've mentioned, Violet's dad's objections wouldn't have been outrageous for that world if Henry were actually a candidate to marry Violet. In that world, Henry wouldn't be prepared to defend himself and take care of a family, and he's only one year too young to be considered ready for military duty. Other boys his age would be in training for something. Compared to other boys his age in that world, he is pretty useless because he comes from a world where a kid gets to be a kid. 

 

Which is why it's hardly the stuff of massive heartbreak that a girl from another world with totally different expectations and timetables for courtship and life in general is only ready to be friends with the kid she just met.

 

On another note, they hit again the thing about Hook thinking of himself as an expert on dating (it still bugs me that he uses that word and seems that familiar with the concept). He's been around a long time, but he seems to have spent most of his adult life either in a long term, committed relationship or stranded in Neverland, and the rest of the time he's been focused on getting vengeance for what happened to his first love, not getting over her until he met Emma. When has he done any real wooing and courting? His go-to tactic seems to be sitting in a tavern and smiling, then picking which lady of the group that's drawn to him he wants to keep for the night (if even that much). He won Milah by listening to her dreams and telling her about his travels. After his experience with Emma, he might have been the best one to offer advice to Henry -- it's okay to be her friend and be there for her, but don't expect anything, and if it's meant to be, she'll come around on her own time and on her own terms -- but there's no way he should be a dating expert.

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This was one of those episodes where I liked it fine when I watched it, but only later in the day did I look back and think... 'wait, what?!' Comparing Emma to Cora? Really? What Emma did was wrong and it's right that her relationship with Henry takes a hit for that. But wouldn't a better comparison be that time Regina arranged for Henry to overhear Emma calling his beliefs about the town 'crazy'? Even then, Regina hurt Henry to get Emma out of town, not for some greater good. Plus she wasn't under the influence of thousands of years of dark magic and she hardly gave a damn about the damage to Henry as long as she got what she wanted. This would've been the perfect opportunity for Regina to fess up to her own, repeated parenting failures. Instead we have Saint Regina of Perpetual Woe whose pain doth dwarf the anguish of a thousand incinerated villagers. Spare me her crying over Daniel. She's done all that and worse to hundreds of innocent people, including children. But this episode literally bottled her tears for their assumed magical properties, so massive is her grief that we must dwell on it while her victims are a footnote. Jesus.

 

Speaking of martyrs, it amuses me to no end that the writers only seem interested in giving Neal attention now that he's dead. Though I suppose he was always more of a macguffin than a person in his own right, existing to forward other characters' stories rather than have one of his own. While I did warm to young!Baelfire, his adult counterpart was IMO unappealing as a character in almost every way. I don't mind him being mentioned at all or Emma remembering parts of their relationship fondly. But the show has been terrible at acknowledging the massive harm he did, so every time they try to make me see him through heavily smudged, rose tinted glasses I just feel sick.

 

I find myself only giving a damn about Henry because Emma loves him. Outside of that he can get shipped off to boarding school for all I care. Nice reminder from him in this episode that he bought Emma to Storybrooke so she could devote her life to the service of these ungrateful fucks. Emma was destined to break the curse, but it was Regina and Rumple who ruined people's lives. What justice is there in Emma not only mopping up their messes, but also working overtime to ensure they (or at least Regina) are as happy as possible? You know what? Forget Henry's broken heart. Dark Emma could nuke Storybrooke and I'd laugh myself unconscious.

 

To end on a positive note, Jennifer Morrison is doing a good job in the role and I'm hoping to see more scenes with Emma (all variations) in later episodes, especially as her plan become clearer.

Edited by october
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Nice reminder from him in this episode that he bought Emma to Storybrooke so she could devote her life to the service of these ungrateful fucks.

 

I know, right?

 

This is exactly why I find no value in the Emma/Henry relationship, because Henry will never choose Emma for just Emma. Still not over him passing down the Savior mantle to Regina in 5x02. Swan Believer can die a thousand horrible deaths in pits of fire. 

 

And no, Emma, Henry wasn't bringing you home, he was bringing you to break a curse and expose Regina as the Evil Queen. 

 

I'm dead serious when I say Emma should just get the hell out of town. I was so hoping it would happen during this arc.

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Instead we have Saint Regina of Perpetual Woe whose pain doth dwarf the anguish of a thousand incinerated villagers. Spare me her crying over Daniel. She's done all that and worse to hundreds of innocent people, including children. But this episode literally bottled her tears for their assumed magical properties, so massive is her grief that we must dwell on it while her victims are a footnote. Jesus.

 

The sheer ridiculousness of Regina's woe tears being bottled up and used as a plot point of the episode only rivals the ridiculousness of being forced to watch Regina learn to dance "for the first time" because apparently all Saviors are good dancers and Regina has never danced before. I feel like we've reached a new echelon of Mary Sue here.

Edited by Curio
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I was going to complain about how utterly, totally, epically, ludicrously lame it was that Regina's tears at re-seeing her mother kill her beloved-- the man she wanted to marry-- by ripping his heart out and crushing it were not powerful enough to break a powerful spell, and Henry's tears at having a girl he'd known for a couple of days tell him she only liked him as a friend were. But Orza makes an excellent point about the Big Feelings of early teenagers, so okay.

 

     Therefore, what I'll complain about is Henry's incredibly inept idea of how to introduce someone to the concept of movies. I hadn't been aware of, or had forgotten about, Commando, so I looked up the plot, and good grief! A kid from a medieval-ish world who had never before seen pictures move and speak would experience such a violent action movie, set in a world she'd never seen, as a vision of Hell. And Harold and Maude is a deeply strange movie which also presents a scary world Violet had never seen and would be slow to understand. Puh-LEEZE, Henry. Start her off gently by making the moving, speaking images familiar to her: show her the animated Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, a version of a story about people she knows, or the Errol Flynn Robin Hood (not Kevin Costner, not Men in Tights). Then maybe proceed to The Court Jester to start playing around with and widening her experience. Commando and Harold and Maude should both be approximately around #12,436th on the list of movies you'd show a person from a whole other society. Remember the famous essay where the anthropologist tells about trying to tell the plot of Hamlet to friends from an isolated African tribe; this would be worse.

 

 So it's the worst concept for dating ever-- Henry is lucky the "date" never proceeded that far-- but I suppose it's viable as a piece of comic characterization about how little he knows. Except that Henry's been in other realms a lot, unlike most tweens, and ought to know better.

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Regina calling Emma "miss Swan" wa a very forced callback to the pilot, imo.

 

 

To be fair, it was only one ingredient out of a bunch.

And I'm pretty sure Emma said something about needing the power of the Dark One to do it. It makes sense that the Dark One put him in there and that it takes one to take him out.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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And I'm pretty sure Emma said something about needing the power of the Dark One to do it. It makes sense that the Dark One put him in there and that it takes one to take him out.

 

No I think it was the combination of DO power plus that lame saviour stuff as shown by the in your face black and white cheesiness. If it was any DO power then Rump could've done it or any DO that came before him. Also he could've told Arthur that a DO could release him, instead of savior.  It still makes sense because the DO put him there and there's also that stuff about his true love. So Emma is the DO and the true love baby all conveniently packaged in 1.

 

Merlin seems pretty nonchalant for all the shit that seems to have gone down and for being tree-ed forever. He looks like he just wants to kick back with some popcorn.

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So Henry and Regina are mortally offended by a partial memory and a heartbreak that Henry no longer recalls because it was erased from his memory? Ugh. Not to mention a world of difference between Cora/Daniel and what Emma did. Did I mishear when they discussed the tear, because I thought it was supposed to be from a "lost love" not a "first love." "Let's be friends" doesn't really count as a lost love to me...

 

I'm way more interested in hottie Merlin's lady. Are they going to introduce a Morgana character, or will she be someone we've already met?

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Well I enjoyed it for the most part.

I liked Belle being smart.

I enjoyed the flashback in the beginning. Totes sure that Vivian became the dark one. Mostly for that mask that seemed to be very Celticy woven on the top. Dark ones look badass.

I loved Emma's cloak it was so pretty. Merlin is hot as hell.

Robert Carlyle is so much fun to watch.

I loved Emma helping Henry.

Regina should get off her high horse though.

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So Henry and Regina are mortally offended by a partial memory and a heartbreak that Henry no longer recalls because it was erased from his memory?

And that Violet no longer recalls and that has been set right in the meantime, probably going better than it would have if Violet hadn't been forced to friendzone him and he'd actually shown her Harold and Maude (seriously? Those are the two movies a 13-year-old has on his phone? Not a recent release that comes packaged with a digital edition?).

 

I don't so much mind them talking positively about Neal. Naming a kid after him was a bit much, but speaking positively and fondly to Henry is okay, and I can buy him being dumb and weird enough to share his pickup moves with his 11-year-old son in the small amount of time they were together -- like, that song may have come up on the jukebox and Neal told Henry that song always works on the women. But they do need to keep the memories of Neal within the realm of reality, and it's beyond ridiculous for Emma to tell Henry that the great thing about Neal was that he was always himself, when Neal's refusal to be himself and his outright panicked fleeing from being himself is the reason Henry wasn't brought up by his biological parents. Neal was trying desperately not to be Baelfire of the Enchanted Forest, and so when he learned who Emma was, he totally bailed on her, which meant she had their son alone, which meant she gave him up for adoption, and Neal was so busy staying far away from her that he missed out on time he could have had with Henry if he'd even gone to find her after he knew the curse broke. Not to mention that Neal was pretending to be someone else (the car's owner) when Emma met him and in her time with him Neal was living under a fake identity. There are positive things that can be said about Neal, but him always being himself is not on that list. That's not even something that remotely comes to mind when you think about Neal, unless it's Opposite Day.

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I just remembered another thing Henry did that annoyed me.  He told Emma that he needed her help getting Violet her Happy Ending.  Which was her horse.  Violet is, what?, 13 like Henry?  Her Happy Ending is her horse??  Her Happy Ending can be set at age 13?  Why do these words keep getting used??

 

I really wish, just once, a character would overhear Henry blathering on about Happy Endings like he does and then point out that, technically, the term refers to someone being happy at the time of their death.  Like, if Violet were on her deathbed and wanted to see her horse one more time, pets his neck, and then peacefully passes away, that would be a Happy Ending.  But a teenager getting her horse back after he runs away is not getting her Happy Ending.  She's just getting her horse back.  She'll go through several during her lifetime since humans live longer than horses.  Does this make all of her horses her Happy Ending?  Of course not because she's not dead and Henry keeps confusing Happy Ending with Happiness, making him look like an even bigger dumbass than he already was when the series began. 

 

Another thing this episode highlighted is that Henry still doesn't have any friends.  Violet doesn't count since her stay in town should be temporary and he's a total Nice Guy with her anyway.  The memory upsetting Henry is fine but him staying with Regina, who once accidentally almost killed him because she was trying to kill Emma, really undermines his reaction.  If he had even one friend, this would have been a good opportunity to have a sleepover.  Plus, it would give him a reason to be offscreen where he belongs.

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Finaly scanned the episode. Think I can even understand why someone might have thought that it would get people talking. There were interesting ideas and moments in it, the dynamic between Emma and Henry offered something, but as usual with the show the question is, will anything of what they're setting up ever pay off, will we actually see lasting impact and consequences. And as usual it feels to me like the writers had good aim, might have had even some pull, but missed the mark by maybe an inch. They're great at that.
 

When they first said they needed the tear of lost love, I was so sure they'd break out Lancelot and get him to cry over Guinevere. But sure, I guess a teenage crush works just as well. That makes total sense.


First true love is pure, the beauty of a teenager crush, untainted by all the adult lies and drama and past broken hearts... The strong and unbearable pain of the first time our heart was broken by love is the one we never forget ;-)

Hearing Yazoo's (or Yaz as known in the U.S.) "Only you" and seeing the movie list I so felt taken back straight to my own drama teenager crush first love years. I was about Henry's age when the Yazoo song came out. Ah, Alison's Moyet's voice, smoky dancefloor, raunchy loveseats on the sides, the first kisses ... And as teenager and young adult the movie Harold and Maude was one of my favs, a morbid, dark romantic comedy, some timid goth phase. Saw it at the sweet age of 13/14 the first time, but at that age I was as well reading already existentialist literature, so probably was not the average teenager. No, the scene at the diner was not written for those being teenagers now, more for those sentimentally looking back to their glorious teenager magic and their teenager dreams of some 30 years ago, all in time crushed by harsh reality of adult life and the new millenium. Think it's more for the sentimental fools going into midlife crisis at the moment aka Generation X. Oh, right, that happens to be the age of the two show runner as well.

Nevertheless guess seeing Henry in crushing young love pains is something present teenagers might find something to swoon over, regardless of Henry being stuck in some 80s popculture loop.

By the way: Being stuck in that 80s popculture loop is the true curse of Storybrooke. When that will be finally broken, then they will all get a happy ending.
 
 

Honestly, this reminds me of a comment Jennifer Morrison made a couple of weeks ago at New York Comic Con re: Henry. "You ever wonder what Adam and Eddy were like at that age?". The storyline of a "writer" getting friendzoned by a girl, but actually it was a dark evil at play!, and in the end he's a hero and the girl really likes him and Mom Is SO MEAAAAN! Plus old ass songs and movies no 13-year-old actually knows = Totally Self Insert.


Always had the impression, and think it was discussed before in the fandom, that Henry pretty much might be an avatar of A&E. But seldom was so obvious an idea as in this episode.

Shallow note: Hello there, Henry Foss the werewolf from Sanctuary, uhm Ryan Robbins playing Sir Morgan. Always nice to see Ryan on screen. :D

Edited by myril
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That's pretty much how the show views it too.  The darkness entity even LOOKS just like the Symbiote.

 

 

I still think the DO entity looks like the X-Files Black Oil.  Maybe it is the Black Oil.  I think there is a crossover in here somewhere...

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This was super lame. It wasn't as bad as 4x05 but so, so boring. Way too much teenage love affair and teenage drama  for my taste, and, let's be real, Henry should learn to be friendzoned, I see a lot of that in his future.

 

Emma's development in Camelot makes no sense, and shows how little A&E care about the characters. They wanted to repeat season 4 structure so badly (CS date in episode 4, SQ adventure in episode 5) that they completely messed with Emma's characterization.  

 

The less said about Merida, the better.

 

 

And where was Hook? He would have been GLUED to her, knowing about her Rumple visions, but he could've stopped her from going darker, so the writers simply had him inexplicably missing. I found the writing very awkward and inauthentic. Not the first time, of course. But sad that A&E produced another subpar ep.

This was this season SQ episode, of course Hook was nowhere to be seen. This year they couldn't send him sailing with Henry, so they just ignored him completely.

 

 

Being stuck in that 80s popculture loop is the true curse of Storybrooke. When that will be finally broken, then they will all get a happy ending.

There is some great stuff in the 80s. It's just that A&E have a terrible taste. Harold and Maud? A 13 years old kid? Yeah, sure.

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I was on vacation this weekend so I just watched this episode and I really like it. I know I am in the Minority but I really like the Emma/Henry/Regina family dynamic. Even if you don't ship Emma and Regina like I do The Scenes where Emma and Regina actually try to co parent are some of the best. i enjoyed the Emma and Regina stuff and liked their confrontation scene after Regina found out what Emma did to Henry's girlfriend.

I liked seeing the similarities to what Cora did to Regina's first love and what Emma did to Henry's girlfriend (whose name I still do t remember).

I really didn't like Brave. I thought it was a horrible movie but the actress playing the red head is doing ok and I actually enjoyed her trying to turn the coward of the county into a hero.

I am interested in how they dig Emma out of this; if they do at all or if this is all just one long con against Arthur that will have next season consequences and hurt feelings by all.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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Did anyone else groan when Rumple bemoaned, "I can never be brave."

 

I'd rather have seen a Cowardly Lion pranced into the scene to sing "If I Only Had the Nerve".  At least that would have been funny.

Edited by Camera One
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So Henry and Regina are mortally offended by a partial memory and a heartbreak that Henry no longer recalls because it was erased from his memory? Ugh.

 

I'm ignoring this aspect of the episode because I made a vow to stop harping on double standards as they apply to everybody's treatment of Regina and Emma.  And I'm having S1 Regina flashbacks.

 

But I do still love that the wacky timeline means that Emma knew she had to get fresh tears before she knew that Regina's tears didn't work.  So I choose to believe that was a subtle 'you got over it, so why did you curse the town' dig/punishment by Emma delivered to Regina.

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I think they are going to have to timejump soon. Henry (Jared Gilmore) is starting to look older than 13. The actor is going to be 16 soon.

 

And I just noticed that Wil Scarlett seems to have disappeared!

Edited by chitowngirl
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But a teenager getting her horse back after he runs away is not getting her Happy Ending.  She's just getting her horse back.

For that matter, how is this the Savior's job? Is she now required to guarantee 100 percent happiness for everyone in town, at all times?

 

And it was entirely unnecessary to go so far as to say "You're still the Savior, you need to bring back her happy ending." What would have been wrong with Henry asking Emma to help by saying, "You're good at finding things, can you help?"

 

The way they talk about it, it's like they see it as Emma's job to fix every single thing that goes wrong in town. She may want to help because she's a good person (even while being the Dark One), but it shouldn't have to be because she's the Savior. And every little thing that goes wrong isn't someone being deprived of their happy ending.

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But a teenager getting her horse back after he runs away is not getting her Happy Ending.  She's just getting her horse back.

For that matter, how is this the Savior's job? Is she now required to guarantee 100 percent happiness for everyone in town, at all times?

 

 

 

 

This I hand wave as a kid trying to connect with his mother.  "Do you remember why I brought you to town?"  "Yeah Operation Mongoose."  I might be paraphrasing.  He was looking for something they both did before Emma became the Dark One.   Plus he needed to get her out of the house,,,two birds.  

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I think they are going to have to timejump soon. Henry (Jared Gilmore) is starting to look older than 13. The actor is going to be 16 soon.

 

I'm assuming there will be a time jump between 5A and 5B, at least to advance Zelena's pregnancy.

 

She's what? 14-15 weeks pregnant by now?

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Did anyone else groan when Rumple bemoaned, "I can never be brave."

 

The word brave when Merida is in the vicinity is enough that I block out most of the surrounding dialogue, so I didn't catch that.

 

The stupidest part of that whole thing was that Rumpel became brave over chipped China.  I thought Merida was planning to kidnap Belle but somehow she divined that a chipped saucer was the key to making Rumpel brave.

 

Seriously, think about that.  What combination of events would cause Merida to draw that zany conclusion.  There either had to be a scene where Emma pulled out some Dark One memories that started with "Merida, Rumpel is kind of a sentimental dumbass" or Merida saw a memory in a dreamcatcher where Rumpel was doing something truly embarrassing with that cup while Belle wasn't there (Because if Belle is there you conclude he's brave for Belle not dishware).

 

This is going to be my new pastime. What truly hilarious scene did they have to leave out to get from A to B for plot or to reference the fairytale because they thought it was a cool idea and didn't consider that it was more stupid than cool?

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It felt like there was somehow an episode missing in between. Last we saw Emma, she was happy in a field of flowers kissing Hook. This week, suddenly she's got the Dark One voice going on in Camelot. That was too jarring.

What truly hilarious scene did they have to leave out to get from A to B for plot or to reference the fairytale because they thought it was a cool idea and didn't consider that it was more stupid than cool?

Yet again, Once Upon a Time in Offscreenville seems a lot more interesting than the actual episode. So in Offscreenville, we could have opened this episode up with Emma and Hook asleep together (because seriously, there's no way they just decided to go their separate ways after making out in a field of flowers at sunset) and it's the middle of the night. Emma shoots up because she can hear the whispering of the dagger getting stronger, but Mind Rumple is nowhere to be seen. Emma freaks out, quietly sneaks out of bed, and goes off to make dreamcatchers to keep her mind off the voices until sunrise. When it's finally morning, Emma catches her parents acting suspiciously around her at breakfast, talking about needing to find Regina because it's urgent and there isn't much time to waste. Because Emma's been making dreamcatchers all night, she comes up with the idea to use a dreamcatcher on her parents and realizes what Arthur did to them. Then we can cut to the scene of Emma using the dreamcatcher on Merlin's tree and freezing her parents later on.

 

So here we have the scenes that explain: 1) Where the hell Hook was during the Camelot story, 2) Why Emma felt she had to go to such drastic measures so quickly and take Violet's heart out, because apparently Hook's presence couldn't even stop the Dark One whispers and that freaks Emma out, and 3) How she came up with the idea to use the dreamcatchers to figure out what was going on with her parents and Arthur.

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You broke some cardinal A&E writing rules:

1. Snowing can't have a conversation with Emma until they do something bad to her.

2. Your description did not include Regina.

3. Not enough swordplay.

4. Breakfast?  What's next - washing dishes?

Edited by Camera One
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We'll likely never get a reversal scene where Regina watches a crappy vignette from Emma's childhood that Regina was actually somewhat responsible for.

 

I'm actually kind of hoping for this with Emma & her parents. Or dreamcatcher movie night where Snowing, Regina, Henry and hell maybe the whole town watch just how much of a sacrifice Emma made for them. It's not even to make them feel bad, but to understand that unlike pretty much everything else about the curse and its lack of consequences, there was a huge price paid and it was paid by a completely innocent baby.

 

I just remembered another thing Henry did that annoyed me.  He told Emma that he needed her help getting Violet her Happy Ending. Which was her horse.  Violet is, what?, 13 like Henry?  Her Happy Ending is her horse??  Her Happy Ending can be set at age 13?  Why do these words keep getting used??

 

There was an interview Jennifer Morrison gave where she referenced how stupid it is to refer to everything as a happy ending (although she was nice and didn't call it stupid) and said that your ending is death, so she prefers happy beginnings or something like that. But it still isn't Emma's job to make people happy all the time and it frustrates me to no end that this show keeps implying that it is. Emma used to believe that we make our own happiness, now she's been characterized as someone who must help everyone ever because she's the Saviour and it's her job. Even if she is now the Dark One too.

Edited by KAOS Agent
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Well I just did a quick re-watch of the episode. I fast forwarded through most of it. In the beginning scene with Merlin, he pauses as he is about the stab the Dark One, and says "oh no". I believe he only then may have recognized who it was, and that's why he couldn't go through with it. 

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Late for this one, and it wasn't really worth it.  Even if it ends up playing a part in Merlin's resurrection, Henry's love life is so not on the top of my list of things I want to see.  Only thing that even amused me about it was Hook offering him advice, which would have been worth at least an entire act.  And he certainly could have used it, considering how his date went, even before Violet "refused" him.  And his move tastes aren't very good.  Commando and Harold and Maude?  Really, Henry?

 

Anyway, it was all to bring Merlin back and show how horrible Dark Emma is, after it was revealed she took Violet's heart and forced her to do it.  Which, yes: pretty bad.  But compared to all the fucking things that other characters have done, it still isn't enough.  And, sure enough, when they had Regina of all people, tearing into Emma, I just laughed and began mentally counting all the actual bodies Regina has dropped, and how we should forgive her because.... reasons, I guess.  Stuff like this makes me actually root for Dark Emma to just go evil on everyone.

 

The Merida/Rumple stuff is so stupid.  Merida is obnoxious and, even though I know Emma is making her do it, I'm surprised Disney/Pixar is cool with them making her this mean and obnoxious.  I mean, sure, they has Elsa do some bad stuff during the Frozen arc, but they still made her not too harsh, and I always felt like I understood her.  Here, while I see the reasons, I feel like Merida is just being a jerk when she doesn't have too.  By main issue though is I don't see how this is going to make Rumple a hero.  I don't see him fighting her as "defending Belle", as much as he's angry that she's threatening her.  Is it really bravery, when a lot of his motivations are out of anger?  I just don't get the rules here.

 

Hey, Ryan Robbins!  I just saw you on Arrow last week!  You really are everywhere!

 

Not enough time to form an impression on Merlin, although I loved his "DISAPPOINTED!"-like reaction to Arthur.

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Not enough time to form an impression on Merlin, although I loved his "DISAPPOINTED!"-like reaction to Arthur.

 

Ok I like Arthur. Shadiness and all, at least he's thinking of the peasants! Or at least he pretends too. The rest don't even bother.

 

But that entire sequence with Merlin made me laugh cause it was just so trite. Him getting scolded by Merlin about a broken sword while Merlin's all I've been waiting for you Emma, made it seem like a teacher with the teacher's pet and the class trouble maker. I mean the subject matter is about legendary Excalibur, the darkest dark to ever dark and a meeting centuries? in the making? And it ended up like a scene straight from a coming of age high school movie, starring the professor and his 2 students.

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I liked seeing the similarities to what Cora did to Regina's first love and what Emma did to Henry's girlfriend (whose name I still do t remember).

 

I especially loved the direct comparison that Regina made to what Cora did.   Hell, when Regina thinks that Emma's crossed a line and calls her out for it, that says something.

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The thing that bugs me about Merida is that she's cruel to Gold and he's just a victim too! I understand her being vicious to Emma. Very bad characterization going on there.

 

I wouldn't call Gold a victim, but Merida doesn't know that, as far as she knows he's just a captive like her so yeah, her attitude toward him is puzzling.  I guess she just really dislikes cowards.

Edited by Mathius
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I wouldn't call Gold a victim, but Merida doesn't know that, as far as she knows he's just a captive like her so yeah, her attitude toward him is puzzling.  I guess she just really dislikes cowards.

 

That may be part of it, but as she made clear in the episode, her only concern is to finish the job that Emma is forcing her to do so she can get her heart back and can get back to saving her brothers and her own kingdom.  I seriously doubt that she really gives a damn about Rumple.

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To non-DO Rumpel, all those memories and experiences gained under the DO curse don't change that view of himself as fundamentally, constitutionally weak. The Dark One was the one who did all  Stripped of that, it's actually pretty believable that an incapacitating feeling of powerlessness and fear would naturally take over.

 

The problem is that we saw Rumple in 4B, outside of Storybrooke and having no magic. And it seemed to take him a hot minute to get over his fears and discomfort and regain his swagger and scheming ways. He had no problem conning Belle and rounding up the so-called Queens of Darkness. He also should have all his memories of being Mr. Gold, lording his way without magic.

 

If he lost his memories, I could buy his behavior. But as it is, it doesn't ring true to me because he should remember being intimidating and successful without magic. Heck, he should remember how to use his cane to fight.

 

What I would have preferred is if his story wasn't about the question of bravery, but rather his guilt. He should be horrified at the things he remembers and find the idea of him being able to become a hero ridiculous. I'd rather see something like he's involved because he wants to help everyone stop Emma out of a need for atonement, but Emma be manipulating him behind-the-scenes to get what she needs.

 

I wouldn't call Gold a victim, but Merida doesn't know that, as far as she knows he's just a captive like her so yeah, her attitude toward him is puzzling.
I didn't view Merida as mean so much as desperate.
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It's reaching back a bit in the discussion, but I seriously doubt Rumple would've had to fight all of Hook's crew, or fight to the death, or anything like that. Good Form means ground rules, scrupulously kept. Would Rumple have lost against a younger man in better shape with years of training? More than likely. Thing is, he didn't even try. I think that's all Hook really expected. What's more, just because he lost the fight wouldn't necessarily mean that he immediately got the old heave-ho. Was it a fight just to see who got to "keep" Milah? She didn't want to be with Rumple anymore anyway.

Hook might've spent time in his Navy days courting/wooing women, maybe not seriously with marriage in mind, but some light flirtations? Widows had more freedom than wives in some ways, because they'd fulfilled their societal obligations. I can see him involved with a young widow or two.

It occurred to me also that Emma had Reggie reliving her most painful memory knowing full well (?) that her tears wouldn't work in the spell. I know it's not how the show would spin it, but part of me is like: take that, Beyotch! Also, too: it was Cora who killed him, leave me and mine out of it!

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I wouldn't call Gold a victim, but Merida doesn't know that, as far as she knows he's just a captive like her so yeah, her attitude toward him is puzzling.  I guess she just really dislikes cowards.

We just haven't seen the super interesting pre-curse Merida flashback where she runs into Rumple and makes a bad deal, because seriously, everyone runs into Rumple in the Enchanted Forest. 

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If he lost his memories, I could buy his behavior. But as it is, it doesn't ring true to me because he should remember being intimidating and successful without magic. Heck, he should remember how to use his cane to fight.

 

Yeah, he's being portrayed as a poor wittle victim who can't even grip a sword and fight when we've seen him as non-magic Gold beat up Moe and he was totally planing to throw down with Emma in "Manhattan" Not to mention he has his memories, so he knows how to sword fight. I just can't tell if this is some manipulation on his part or not. The whole part where he put on his Sad!Rumpel face and begged to see Belle was ridiculous considering he swaggered into New York and picked up the Queens of Darkness just a few weeks ago without any fear or cowardice. Which is he? The whiny useless in a fight guy we see in this episode or the always scheming, likes to beat people up guy we've seen him to be?

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ok....so only daughter is consumed by Darkness ........PARTY !!!!!

I remember when the spoiler pics for this ep came out and I thought it unbelievably callous to have a town party when the woman who saved every one of the ungrateful bastards has apparently lost her soul. ... I saw nothing in this ep to change my opinion.

Edited by PixiePaws1
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I think it's hilarious that the dwarves were whining about how Emma is this super dangerous villain, but they aren't a bit worried about her crashing their street fair. This is also the second party they've had in the week or so since they got back which shows Snowing's complete lack of interest in their daughter. Emma's the Dark One, but rather than talk to her, we should celebrate because party = hope. That probably says something about Snowing's psychology, but I don't think that's anything the writers intend.

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Best movie for Henry to have shown Violet: The Sword in the Stone.

 

 

I really wish, just once, a character would overhear Henry blathering on about Happy Endings like he does and then point out that, technically, the term refers to someone being happy at the time of their death.

 

Where I come from, the term "Happy Endings has a much more adult meaning...

  • Love 3
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I especially loved the direct comparison that Regina made to what Cora did.   Hell, when Regina thinks that Emma's crossed a line and calls her out for it, that says something.

 

Why? Regina has never had a problem with calling out other people. Only when it comes to her own actions it's always somebody else's fault, or because people have made her a "villain".

 

And the comparison to Cora's actions isn't that stable either, is it? Emma didn't kill the girl. Rather, let's compare it to when Regina took Belle's heart last season. What Emma needed to do was to break Henry's heart - result was "Sorry, I don't really like you that way." All Regina had to do with Belle was to inform Rumpel that Belle is her hostage. Result? Rubbing Rumpel's face in the fact that Will Scarlet was a better kisser than him?

 

Of course, Regina can do that and still be a hero. Emma? She's bascially Cora 2.0

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