S02.E05: Meet Bonnie

[nutty1]

Where would Anna ever get a video that had to be 25+ years old of Bonnie's father molesting her?? Would one even exist?

[FormerMod-a1]

People have been recording things for a long time.  Film and camcorders have been around a long time.  Just because it was originally on tape doesn't mean anything.  Tape videos have been transferred to digital for a long time as well, and it gets easier every day.

[krimimimi]

Our family's super 8, some dating back to the 60s, got transferred to VHS years ago, and then somebody had those converted to DVD, so I've no problem believing someone went to that effort here. Probably with one less needed step. (Fortunately, our family footage is decidedly less rapey. yuck.)

Edited October 23, 2015 by krimimimi

[Chicago Redshirt]

Where would Anna ever get a video that had to be 25+ years old of Bonnie's father molesting her?? Would one even exist?

Assuming for the moment it's a real video of Bonnie and her dad, it's not unbelievable that Bonnie's dad recorded himself and Bonnie on whatever available technology available at the time, and that the original video has been transferred into a modern format over the years.

 

In terms of where Anni might have gotten it, she could have gotten it while defending Papa Bonnie against child molestation charges, or while defending Bonnie for murder or some other crime against Papa Bonnie. It also could have been that Sam was Bonnie's therapist, and that Sam got these videos and Anni raided Sam's records for it. 

 

Whether or not the video was real, it is a pretty messed up thing to show Asher rather than either tell Asher, "Bonnie was the victim of child molestation" or better yet, to allow Bonnie to have the power to disclose that. 

[Fredward]

"Frank would never do that!" Oh, Laurel. Please. We all know half the reason he makes you percolate like he does is exactly because he's the kind of person who would do that.

 

I'm thinking Asher killed that girl at Trotter Lake. Maybe not with the intent of killing her but I think he hit her or pushed her or something. I also think he killed the yippy-dog-lady attorney. Why do I think this? ALMOST NO REASON! Except I think he might have a temper. Which is based almost entirely off of the way he snapped at yippy-dog-lady attorney an episode or two back. Also possibly the way he said he'd break Frank's face in (wouldn't mind seeing how THAT would turn out for him).

 

It says something about my opinion of Analise when one of the first things I thought when she showed that tape to Asher was 'yeeaaah, that's just some random girl.' I'd still put it at 50/50.

 

One of Wes' major problems (if not THE major problem) is that he consistently completely misjudges people and what they're capable of shown very well this ep by him underestimating Frank DESPITE the fact that he knows enough about the man to know he shouldn't.

 

Of the students everyone is getting something to work with: Connor has Olliver, Asher has Trotter Lake and everything else, Michaela has her complicated relationship with men and potential bayou past, Wes has Rebecca on the brain. Everyone except Laurel. The show keeps hinting at this hard core for her, this steeliness in her character (as well as a streak that likes to rebel and/or look for trouble like the way she smiled when her dad chased her away from the dinner table) but it doesn't show it. And that annoys me.

 

I like the political message the show broadcasts, it isn't as heavy handed as Grey's (and, frankly, that's not a bad thing) but it still gets its point across.

 

I wanna know what has Frank indebted to Analise because he needs to be working at international espionage levels.

[Skyler Durden]

Since I did not see a single mention of it, I assume that I am in the wrong, but I feel like Asher said something that implied he had a son we have never met? From the Thing At The Lake?

Also, real talk: If you are having hurried sex in a house full of people, just take the panties off and get to business. There is NO NEED to get fully naked. Only in movies and teevee does this happen. Come ON.

[Artsda]

Wes finds a suitcase full of cash and his first thought is that it's connected to Rebecca? Based on what or how? Any normal person's first through would probably be "cash! grab it!" and run. lol

 

I like Laurel and Frank.

 

Aww Bonnie, felt for her a lot this episode. Great focus on her and her backstory.

 

What are you doing Asher?

 

Love Michaela and Connor's friendship, when he stepped in to tell Levi to not touch her. Connor was great this episode, just day drinking and not caring.  

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Could Frank Be The Brains Behind Everything On How To Get Away With Murder?
Ranking the players in the latest Bonnie-focused outing.

[Neurochick]

I would go to Frank if I needed something dirty done lol.

 

 

In more ways than one.  

 

BTW, I don't think that was Bonnie on that video.  For all we know it could have been an audition for some "very special" TV movie circa 1980's.  

Edited October 23, 2015 by Neurochick

[represent]

 

I'm thinking Bonnie possibly killed the DA. I'm not so sure on her possibly killing Anni.

Yeah, and I'm even thinking that she has no idea that Annalise is inside that house bleeding to death. Someone else shot/stabbed Anna.

 

 

 

It says something about my opinion of Analise when one of the first things I thought when she showed that tape to Asher was 'yeeaaah, that's just some random girl.' I'd still put it at 50/50.

 

Yes, this did cross my mind even though the eppy was title "Meet Bonnie".

 

 

It's just something how diabolical Anna comes across sometimes, it's amazing how she actually hasn't literally killed someone yet. All the actual murderers surround her but she isn't one of them.

Edited October 23, 2015 by represent

[Lyndy]

Asher trying to rat everyone out is maybe my favourite thing. Hear me out. How many times have you seen a show like this and counted several (like well into the teens) opportunities the stupid characters had to do the right thing or the responsible thing only to do a colossally stupid thing? And then get yelly and self-righteous and "I had no choice!" When they had so many choices. I love that Asher realizes, "Wait, this is serious and I need to get the hell out of this." It's refreshing.

Really, it's not my favourite thing though. That's obviously Frank. Because he's evil and smarter than everyone else.

Who else is wondering about the Annalise / Wes thing and why she's so weird with him? Have you guys talked about this on other threads? Are we going to find out he's secretly her son? Or reminds her of someone she dated in high school that she killed and buried out past the football field? It's so creepy.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Who else is wondering about the Annalise / Wes thing and why she's so weird with him? Have you guys talked about this on other threads? Are we going to find out he's secretly her son? Or reminds her of someone she dated in high school that she killed and buried out past the football field? It's so creepy.

 

Yup, it is hard to watch their interactions without wondering if it is quasi-maternal, actually maternal, sexual, mere manipulation or what.

 

Asher actually speculated in the pilot that Wes might be Anni's son, as have various viewers. Viola also talked about how the Anni-Wes relationship is weird.

[krimimimi]

I think she said the relationship hadn't been defined yet, and there was some indication that some of the weird interactions between those characters were VD's acting choices as opposed to script. Give an actress of her caliber a void, and she fills it. I'm just not sure the final result, when they eventually get around to writing it, will marry up so seamlessly.

[secnarf]

Since I did not see a single mention of it, I assume that I am in the wrong, but I feel like Asher said something that implied he had a son we have never met? From the Thing At The Lake?

 

 

I can't think of anything anybody said that implied this. It might help if we knew what specifically you are referring to?

[krimimimi]

Hey Chicago Redshirt (or any other good folks with a knowledge of the law that, unlike mine, doesn't stem purely from Perry Mason or Law and Order), I gotta know:

1) Asher was being offered a new plea deal, but I think they mentioned in passing that the deal only happens if what he says leads to a conviction. I take it this means he can't now confess to murdering Sam and still walk. Is that correct? (In which case I need to rethink my position on where this is going.) Also, fundamental question: doesn't a clause like that predicate a need for faith in the DA? Because if you let your pants down, and they still flub the case, you're left with your backside thoroughly exposed and no immunity, correct?

2) "Reality" check - as far as we know, with respect to Sam's murder is Bonnie guilty of a crime? Maybe accessory after the fact? What does that actually boil down to? She isn't (or wasn't until this confession vis a vis Archer) hindering their investigation just because she doesn't come forward with what she knows, is she? Is the average citizen required to take what they know in such circumstances to the police? But she's an "officer of the court" (right?) and subject to more rules than your average Joe, correct? But the students probably aren't, as they haven't taken the bar yet? Is the bar exam the point where that status changes, or are there different expectations for people based on course work/ knowledge?

Thanks in advance for explaining that.

And time for a bit of praise / correction - last week I was annoyed because I felt that Asher had nothing worth a plea deal for on Sam's death, but the opening this week showed they wanted him to inform on Anni's misconduct to get a wire tap to prove more misconduct, I believe not necessarily directly related to Sam's murder case. (Of course, that's asking him to put a lot of faith in what St.Claire (Sinclaire?) is able to make of it, or he gets no immunity...) I was glad they addressed this, gave me more confidence in the storyline.

[secnarf]

Where would Anna ever get a video that had to be 25+ years old of Bonnie's father molesting her?? Would one even exist?

At the beginning of the video, it says "Evidence Exhibit D", so it's definitely some type of evidence tape. It could have been obtained any number of ways though - the man in the tape may have recorded it for his own gratification, or someone else may have set up a hidden camera to prove allegations against the man, and I am sure there are other possible scenarios as well.

 

I actually thought the actress in the video looked quite a bit like Bonnie and I was impressed with the casting. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was actually Bonnie in the video, though I'm inclined to believe it is. I've suspected for some time now that Bonnie was a victim of sexual abuse as a child or teenager.

Then again, even if it's not Bonnie in the video, that doesn't mean that she wasn't also sexually abused.

 

I feel like this show is really helping me to learn to avoid making any assumptions.

Edited October 24, 2015 by secnarf

[JasmineFlower]

I'm not understanding people getting behind Connor outside of the Connor and Ollie factor. I mean, yeah, he seems to have suddenly found his conscious and doesn't want to see injustice and people dying all over the place anymore, but he's only that way now when it doesn't involve his crime. He was one of the main ones last year saying pull your shit together last season (especially to Michaela), so this little turn this year isn't endearing to me. He's all for justice and truth as long as it doesn't involve him and his misdeeds (accomplice to murder, destroying evidence, obstruction of justice) that would send him straight to prison. That's nothing to get behind and rally for. Granted, I understand looking for someone, anyone to root for on this show, but just really don't think it's Connor. I still like him besides this, but my opinion on his self-serving nature has not changed with his sudden change of heart since it only extends to crimes he didn't personally commit.

 

For me the person to root for  continues to be Ollie and I do like them together still and am enjoying the introduction of the friendship between Michaela and Ollie too.

 

Loved the part when Annalise told them about themselves. I get their exhaustion with eveyrthing and panicking about Asher, but if they get caught, it's only because they helped in the commission of a murder and then, oh well. Them pouncing on Bonnie and insinuating about Asher is yet another reason why I see no reason to root for them and feel sympathy for Connor's sudden downfall and change of heart. They play the victim entirely too much as if they didn't do anything wrong, and it feels to me like if push comes to shove, they'll sacrifice someone else to stay out of prison.

[wanderingstar]

Where would Anna ever get a video that had to be 25+ years old of Bonnie's father molesting her?? Would one even exist?

Let's just say that because of how this show has conditioned me, I have reservations about that video's authenticity.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Gillian Rosh

[JasmineFlower]

Hey Chicago Redshirt (or any other good folks with a knowledge of the law that, unlike mine, doesn't stem purely from Perry Mason or Law and Order), I gotta know:

1) Asher was being offered a new plea deal, but I think they mentioned in passing that the deal only happens if what he says leads to a conviction. I take it this means he can't now confess to murdering Sam and still walk. Is that correct? 

2) "Reality" check - as far as we know, with respect to Sam's murder is Bonnie guilty of a crime? 

Thanks in advance for explaining that.

 

 

I didn't hear that Asher's plea deal was tied to a conviction, but if that's the case, then no he couldn't just confess and then walk. As for faith in the DA. For the most part, meaning not on TV, a plea deal will not be rescinded if you got a raw deal because it would jeopardize the DA's ability to conduct cases. Most cases end in plea deals, if the DA suddenly wasn't honoring them because they didn't get everything they wanted out of the deal, the productivity and cost of the DA's system would go to shit and quick. I think that's what you were asking, but can't be positive. If you mean, didn't the DA tie too many things to the immunity deal and can't Asher get screwed in the deal he made. Yes, that's right and in that case  you would basically say, Asher should have had better representation and gotten a better deal. I'd be really surprised if the immunity deal was tied to a conviction, but who knows on this crazy show.

 

With respect to Sam's murder, Bonnie would likely be guilty of obstruction of justice. Someone could also probably make a case for accessory after the fact though I'm really sort of blanking on how early she knew what was going on. In terms of her license, that wouldn't really factor in except for that she would lose it and might have aggravated circumstances for for a stiffer sentence because of it.

 

In terms of the students not taking the bar yet. When you work alongside a barred attorney in an official capacity, you essentially take the same oath they do and operate under the court's jurisdiction. So, no they haven't officially been sworn in yet, but they are held to a higher standard since they are working on legal matters under a licensed attorney. They get official approval to work under the standards of the court and uphold, etc, etc, etc. Now, let's be clear, this is in real life, not on here. On here, that wouldn't happen with first years. It was always ridiculous that the the students (Connor, Michaela, Laurel, and Asher) were working at all for Annalise. It doesn't happen during first year. There are strict limits to the amount of work you can do at all in your first year outside of school and when it's allowed it's nothing like what is on here. It's much, much, much less time, and tends to be for hardship reasons. Almost nothing about the law school experience is remotely accurate on here outside of Annalise using the Socratic method during class.

Edited October 24, 2015 by JasmineFlower

[DeeDee79]

JasmineFlower I applaud your entire post. The Keating 5 (or rather 4) have barely acknowledged the fact that Annalise is the entire reason why they aren't behind bars. Although it's obvious that her main motivation to cover for them is because Wes is involved (God knows why she cares so much about him) she could have easily put them behind bars and went on with her life sans her despicable husband. I've been waiting for her to call them out on their behavior while she's been covering for their asses and she didn't disappoint.

 

Regarding Connor I also don't think he's suddenly gained a conscience. He's aware of how things could go crashing down around them and he's acting out of self preservation, not morality. I guess it's easier to get behind a character with a pretty face *shrugs* I like Oliver and I hope he won't get dragged into Connor's mess, although the mess stems entirely from Wes and Rebecca ( I loathe them both!!)

 

Also, I loved Frank this week !

[secnarf]

I didn't hear that Asher's plea deal was tied to a conviction, but if that's the case, then no he couldn't just confess and then walk. As for faith in the DA. For the most part, meaning not on TV, a plea deal will not be rescinded if you got a raw deal because it would jeopardize the DA's ability to conduct cases. Most cases end in plea deals, if the DA suddenly wasn't honoring them because they didn't get everything they wanted out of the deal, the productivity and cost of the DA's system would go to shit and quick. I think that's what you were asking, but can't be positive. If you mean, didn't the DA tie too many things to the immunity deal and can't Asher get screwed in the deal he made. Yes, that's right and in that case  you would basically say, Asher should have had better representation and gotten a better deal. I'd be really surprised if the immunity deal was tied to a conviction, but who knows on this crazy show.

Sinclair said that he'll get immunity "provided [his] intel leads to a conviction".

I laughed when Asher's dad said it was a good deal, because it sure didn't sound like a good deal to me!

[cali1981]

Geez, this show has the most unlikable cast of characters that I've ever  seen .  Not one of them has even a single redeeming quality.  I think that I tune in every week just to see which of them is going to be the most despicable.  When are they actually going to show Annalise getting shot? They've been trolling this BS every week since the season opener. Enough already! Shoot the woman and move on.

[RedheadZombie]

There's no way that four people would just walk away from a suitcase stuffed with money.  Unless they thought it was marked somehow, I just don't see it happening.  Plus, if that is indeed the suitcase Frank stuffed Rebecca in, it would have her DNA inside.  So if the police were to search and find that suitcase, whoever had it would be fingered for the murder.  That would have been an interesting twist.

 

I think my problem with Annalise and the murder 4 is that she was under no obligation to help them cover up their crimes... Unlike her PAYING CLIENTS. It's one thing to cover up murders if you're getting paid or they are your friends... but the only reason I can understand her covering up for them is that she wanted more people to surround her that feels indebted to her.

 

She's not a lawyer who happens to cover up murders, she's actively trying to find the most guiltiest looking people around to defend because she's bored and depressed and there's apparently nothing good on tv in her universe.  Also she has at least 2 other murderers on her payroll... So it's not an incidental lawyery thing but something she actively pursues in her personal and professional life.

 

If she wanted to not see the murderers who murdered her husband (like most sane people would prefer) she could just kick them to the curb and tell them not to get involved in illegal shit. Instead she's constantly getting them to commit one sort of crime or another for her benefit. Like harassing the interns to hack the police department.

 

I enjoy watching Viola Davis portray Annalise, but I have no illusions about the character.  Annalise is a toxic, angry, bitter, pathological liar, and manipulator.  I'm tired of her throwing it in the Keating 4's faces that she's "protecting" them.  Bullshit.  Annalise walked into her house, found her husband murdered, and did nothing.  She knew she was in a compromising position.  She knew she would be the number one suspect, and she certainly had motive.  She was sitting at that desk spinning and manipulating.  It wasn't until Wes walked in that she knew who killed Sam.  And I'm not convinced Sam was dead when they ran out, and someone else didn't finish him off.  And I think that's one of the problems with this show. 

 

We already have two pre-meditated murderers and one manslaughter in self-defense, not to mention the rest of the cast (now including Asher) who are accessories or accessories after the fact.  There's no way that Asher is going to be responsible for the DA's death - this isn't the Sopranos, not every character can be bad.  This leads me to speculate that the siblings are responsible for the DA's death and Annalise's injury.  I also think that it's possible Bonnie didn't actually kill Rebecca, and that someone other than the Keating 4 ultimately killed Sam.  They need to minimize the murderers, and to do that they have to have characters responsible for multiple deaths.  I think by the end of this season, they're going to need to show us a murderer being convicted, killed, or leaving the show.

 

 

Could Anna have been on her case, as a child? No, Anna is not that much older than Bonnie is she?  I mean how on earth did she get that tape? This  I need to know a lot more about, WOW.

 

The actresses are only twelve years apart in age, but I don't think Bonnie is supposed to be thirty-eight (Liza Weil's age).  Annalise told Nate that Bonnie is "like my child", so I think she's supposed to be a bit older than Bonnie.

[WhitneyWhit]

Personally, I'm sick of Annie coddling Wes while being a hard ass with the rest of them. Wes is the one who actually murdered her husband. I rolled my eyes at the scene where she was asking Wes how things are going.

[Nanrad]

Jasmine, all of what you said.

 

Exactly. Connor goes on and on about how Annalise is controlling them, but they are the ones who killed Sam. She has been covering for them and now Bonnie. Unless we find out otherwise, Annalise is the only one in that group who has not murdered or killed anyone. None of the students or Frank or Bonnie are good guys. If Annalise went to the police and gave them all up right now, she would likely to get off by offering up a sob story about why she covered for them and would walk away. They are the ones would fighting to stay out of prison and would be lucky if they did. 

I was thinking this tonight, as far as we know, Annalise is the only one who doesn't have blood on her hands, but is accused the most in being involved in the murders by almost everyone. I don't know if she'd get off for her cover up, but I don't believe she'd get as harsh of a ruling as the others.

 

TBH, I'm sick of Connor's crying about how she has control of them because, before he participated in the murder, there was nothing keeping them there besides them wanting her approval and the experience that came with working under her. I honestly can't recall a time she's ever used the murder against them to blackmail them into anything other than when Connor came in flinging accusations at her. Annalise focuses on the now all while they obsess over the past. I'm not saying Connor shouldn't be upset, but he should stop blaming his shit on Annalise and either own up to his part or shut the fuck up.

 

I enjoy watching Viola Davis portray Annalise, but I have no illusions about the character.  Annalise is a toxic, angry, bitter, pathological liar, and manipulator.  I'm tired of her throwing it in the Keating 4's faces that she's "protecting" them.  Bullshit.  Annalise walked into her house, found her husband murdered, and did nothing.  She knew she was in a compromising position.  She knew she would be the number one suspect, and she certainly had motive.  She was sitting at that desk spinning and manipulating.  It wasn't until Wes walked in that she knew who killed Sam.  And I'm not convinced Sam was dead when they ran out, and someone else didn't finish him off.  And I think that's one of the problems with this show. 

 

We already have two pre-meditated murderers and one manslaughter in self-defense, not to mention the rest of the cast (now including Asher) who are accessories or accessories after the fact.  There's no way that Asher is going to be responsible for the DA's death - this isn't the Sopranos, not every character can be bad.  This leads me to speculate that the siblings are responsible for the DA's death and Annalise's injury.  I also think that it's possible Bonnie didn't actually kill Rebecca, and that someone other than the Keating 4 ultimately killed Sam.  They need to minimize the murderers, and to do that they have to have characters responsible for multiple deaths.  I think by the end of this season, they're going to need to show us a murderer being convicted, killed, or leaving the show.

Annalise has a lot of self loathing, but I think here actions and motivations are far more complicated than she is credited for. Hell yes, a lot of what she does is messed up, especially the Nate situation. But, I understand her reaction in that situation, either way it's spun, she's fucked. She could tell them truth, but then they'd still find a way to claim she did it or influenced those students to kill her husband. Or accuse her of lying--of brain washing them and so forth. But, ultimately, Annalise covered up for them because of Sam. Her marriage was already a disaster before the Lila issue arose because of his infidelity and his indiscretions kept hurting and humiliating her. But, then she asked him flat out about Lila and flat out lied to her face, and then tried to cover his tracks. He got this other girl pregnant and some other shit I forgot about in addition to his final words he said to her.

 

Annalise was hurt that he died because she loved him, but she still believed he deserved his fate because he killed an innocent girl, even though this girl was fucking her husband, all because the girl was pregnant and threatened to expose him. She was absolutely sick of his shit by then and decided she'd rather help cover his murder and not have that stigma attached to those kids as well as take on the scrutiny because no one could prove she did it, rather than turn them in.

 

She did nothing because she was in disbelief and shock--sure, the planning came next, but I don't think she gave to shits about justice for Sam because she believed he deserved his fate.

 

And why would Bonnie admit to Annalise, of all people, to committing a murder she wasn't responsible for??? Who is she protecting?

 

I just think Annalise is this toxic, bitter, anger, lying, and manipulative person because of his molestation and the events surrounding it. She thought her mother ignored her abuse and carried that shame and hatred with her to college/law school where she met Eve, and then Sam. I mean, who gets involved with their therapist and thinks that will turn out well? Sam is probably the first person she had an honest conversation about her molestation to who didn't make her feel bad and she developed feelings for him. Sam, the serial cheater he was, indulged in her feelings and allowed the affair to happen. Annalise thought nothing of his infidelity and thought they had something, but when the same happened to her, she put up with it because of the connection she formed with him during their sessions and whatever intimate talks they had after that.

 

My point being: Annalise 's "normal" is toxic relationships where she has to manipulate and lie. She didn't feel protected and listened to as a girl, and then got until an unequal relationship with her therapist. She has hella reason to be bitter and anger even if some of the shit she's experienced is self imposed. Her actions are messed up and she knows this, but she doesn't know how to fix her. At the same time, I don't think she behaves like this because she wants to manipulate everyone and doesn't give two shits about them.

 

On a general note, I don't think if this is truth in TV or not, but in all of the law firm TV shows I've seen, both sides flirt or cross ethical lines--the trick is knowing how to get away with it. Although the judge may have not believed Annalise in a genuine sense, her disbelief of Annalise's evidence seemed abrupt MO.

[l star]

I kind of love that all this is being tripped up by someone trying to be a decent person. I felt so bad for Asher this ep. I think he's the only one left on this show that is not a truly awful person. He's trying to hold to his beliefs in right and wrong and everyone he loves keeps disappointing him. And not even like making him second guess whether a little cover-up was right or wrong. He's having to second guess murder, assault, and his father helping him to protect his own ass. When his dad refused to admit his misconduct I could see the letdown coming. At least Asher's smart enough to stall effectively and think for himself.

 

Did the judge say there was a grand jury investigation into Trotter Lake? I had assumed that whatever happened the Millstones covered it up before it had any opportunity to get out, not that it was actually a case. I guess we'll find out when Sinclair starts gunning for him again.

 

I feel like Asher's belief that you should protect yourself and tell the truth is the motivation behind that final scene. I think he killed Sinclair and Bonnie was trying to fix it. The cover-ups are what seem to disgust Asher almost as much as the crime itself, and there, he'd be the murderer and participating in the cover-up. He couldn't handle that. My question is- does Bonnie know Annalise is bleeding inside? No way can I imagine that she would leave her there. So where in the house was she coming from in the beginning?

 

Asher/Bonnie was weird this ep. I understand the reasoning behind the deliberate distance between them but the coldness felt odd considering it resulted in I love you's from both sides. Maybe it was the utter lack of touching. For a character as cold and closed off as Bonnie, physical connection is even more important.

 

Maybe I need to re-evaluate but it surprises me that so many people questioned whether the child was really Bonnie. I know that Annalise is twisted but I think revealing something like that to Bonnie's boyfriend and using something that awful to manipulate Asher was enough. It didn't need to be faked too. And I think the show has very effectively laid the groundwork for this to be one of the 'most awful things' that happened to Bonnie as a child. My reaction was why couldn't she just tell him rather than any shock that the show was going there. The horror and pain on Asher's face watching that video was wrenching.

 

When Annalise said that Bonnie was like her own child, I had to laugh. Seriously, woman. The blowup after the other four decided to go after Bonnie was in Annalise's corner though. Her 'you get away from her' was fierce. She was as sincerely angry and upset there as I can remember. I think she had to have been involved in Bonnie's case somehow, and took Bonnie under her wing for whatever reason. Bonnie's so grateful because Annalise said she gave a shit when Bonnie seems to see herself as worthless. That could also be why Annalise and Frank flipped when Bonnie told Asher that she killed Sam- if Asher told, even if they couldn't prove anything the cops would dig into Bonnie's life and history and reveal the crazy.

 

Annalise is beginning to lose me. She only told Nate about Nia's request so that he would be more likely to believe her when she lied again later. So does she care about him? It's like her irritated look when she got Eve's e-mail last ep. This is how she feels about hearing from a woman she cares so much about? I think she gets off on this. On screwing them over then reeling them back in, in the process proving how much they love her. I need to see Annalise give a shit about someone, and enough that it holds weight. I know that's supposed to be Wes but that relationship is so weird and inexplicable that it's not doing it for me.

 

Elsewhere, Laurel is so unsexy to me. I'm liking Frank a lot more than last season but I'm not buying it from Laurel. I continue to love Connor and Mikayla's friendship. Right now I like them loads more together than I do on their own.

[MH319]

So where is Rebecca's body now? Also am curious on the whereabouts of Connor's car (did he get another one?!). And the judge didn't let Annalise get her way?! That's gotta be a first!

But...I feel for Asher in this episode...but I also don't. Ambivalent. I'm glad that they're weaving Asher into the murdere and mysteries, but I'm not sure I like how they're building upon Asher's character. Granted we don't know as much about him as the Keating 4, so I'll stick around and see how it goes.

On the same note, yay that we're slowly getting to know Bonnie and Frank. Not sure if the Flaurel sex scene was needed. But it was hot nonetheless. And Connor and Oliver melts my heart in this episode (and yes, somebody put Oliver on Annalise's payroll!!)

Can't wait for them to reveal what dumb things Asher did at Trotter Lake!

[krimimimi]

I'm glad that they're weaving Asher into the murdere and mysteries, but I'm not sure I like how they're building upon Asher's character. Granted we don't know as much about him as the Keating 4, so I'll stick around and see how it goes.

I'd argue that we currently know more about Asher than either Wes or Laurel, and that's part of what makes their characters suffer for me. With Laurel we've at least had hints. But with Wes, despite all his screen time, I still don't feel I know who he is and what motivates him. (Besides annoying goth chick and whatever he felt for her.) I don't think it's a coincidence that I like him the very least. Well that and the Rebecca debacle. All things Rebecca are made of suck and the show has improved without her. (That's purely about the character, though, and not the actress.)

Interestingly, since Rebecca's departure, while I often really dislike Wes and positively hate DA Smugface, I no longer find myself watching the show around characters, I can now watch all of them. So I hate the characters in an engaging way, if that makes sense? I really love the job the actress who plays the DA is doing. She can make me want to punch her just with a look. (That's supposed to be a good thing.) With Wes, for me I'd say it's primarily a failing both with the writing and the acting choices made in the absence of a better defined character. Somebody here said they like his long neck, for me with his expression it makes him look like a human version of the muppets' Beaker. Without the nose and with tamed down hair, but the same simultaneously blank yet bug-eyed panicky expression. It's a weird expression to go with.

Edited October 24, 2015 by krimimimi

[dr pepper]

Yikes-- this show needs a tv style Big Wall of Conspiracy with pictures and blocks of text all connected up with arrows.

[dr pepper]

Anyway, after all that i think i can predict what the next season will look like:

A woman lies bleeding on the floor of a dimly lit office.

She's naked. Except for a long rainbow striped sock on one foot. And a snowshoe on the other foot. And an oven mitt on one hand. And a nostril piercing with yellow and pink hippo hanging from it. And two lengths of duct tape in an X strategically keeping the scene PG13.

And of course, the 4 foot long metal rod protruding from her chest, the pinwheel on the end turning slowly as she convulses in agony.

As blood spreads out around her, Shonda gasps, "maybe. i. went. too. far. this time!"

[krimimimi]

JasmineFlower, thank you so much for your absolutelty brilliant post above! That is exactly the kind of stuff I was wondering about. And you explained it magnificently! (One of the things I really like about this forum is even if the TV isn't making me smarter, fellow posters will.)

If you mean, didn't the DA tie too many things to the immunity deal and can't Asher get screwed in the deal he made. Yes, that's right and in that case you would basically say, Asher should have had better representation and gotten a better deal. I'd be really surprised if the immunity deal was tied to a conviction, but who knows on this crazy show.

Thank you, because that's exactly what I was worried about. Right now his so-called "legal counsel" is his father, who apparently is more interested in his own damn deal, so I'd say Asher's poorly represented indeed. Wonder which one is really the Millstone around the other's neck?

With respect to Sam's murder, Bonnie would likely be guilty of obstruction of justice. Someone could also probably make a case for accessory after the fact though I'm really sort of blanking on how early she knew what was going on.

For me as a lay person, that seems a bit like a distinction without a difference. I take it "accessory" is more serious, but what is the difference? "Obstruction" is just passive keeping schtumm, whereas an "accessory" takes an active part?

I kind of love that all this is being tripped up by someone trying to be a decent person. I felt so bad for Asher this ep. I think he's the only one left on this show that is not a truly awful person. He's trying to hold to his beliefs in right and wrong and everyone he loves keeps disappointing him.

...

Did the judge say there was a grand jury investigation into Trotter Lake? I had assumed that whatever happened the Millstones covered it up before it had any opportunity to get out, not that it was actually a case. I guess we'll find out when Sinclair starts gunning for him again.

...

The cover-ups are what seem to disgust Asher almost as much as the crime itself, and there, he'd be the murderer and participating in the cover-up.

Maybe, and I would much prefer it that way, but unfortunately we still don't know what happened at Trotter Lake. (And I hope like hell the writers do.) So it's hard to say just how decent Asher is. For all we know, this is just a reflection of a possible natural evolution of the Murder-4 down the line; Asher's guilt is further in the past, and he's still doing his level best to keep it there. I don't see him coming forward to take responsibility. We *do* know that he's still actively trying to keep the details from coming out, and is willing to turn others in to facilitate that, so I'd say that's basically a self-serving and extremely malignant cover-up of his own.

Personally, I wish he'd been kept less tainted. I think you need one vaguely innocent.

Great catch on the grand jury! I found the subs for the ep in case anyone else missed it:

Judge: This is a closed hearing for a wiretap warrant on the residence of Annalise Keating, due to the corroborating testimony of the informant, Asher Millstone. By testifying to the misconduct of Miss Keating, he will receive full

immunity in this case, as well as the closed file entitled "Trotter lake grand jury investigation."

...

Asher: Actually, don't we need to rework my immunity deal? I mean, the current one only covers me for testifying against Annalise's professional illegal misconduct, not for the murder of Sam Keating, so we need a new one... right? One that covers misprision of felony or whatever other illegal crap I've now committed?

...

Sinclair: A new contract... full immunity on both trotter lake and any connection to the murder of Sam Keating, provided, of course, that your intel leads to a conviction.

What the hell is "misprison"? First year silliness?

[darkestboy]

Great episode, though not my favourite.

 

I do like that we got some more insight into Bonnie as a character and her and Asher's inclusions in the shooting plot was a good move. Last moment I kind of saw coming.

 

Oliver commenting on the amount of hacking he does will obviously have some role in the future though, right?

 

Frank duped Wes and got rid of Levi pretty fast. The way the Keating lot are with each other, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to wipe all of them out. 8/10

[truthaboutluv]

Regarding Connor I also don't think he's suddenly gained a conscience. He's aware of how things could go crashing down around them and he's acting out of self preservation, not morality.

 

 

Connor has been an emotional wreck since the night of the murder. While Michaela was in full hysterics, he went into mad-man mode while Wes and Laurel as usual remained eerily cool and calm. That's why Oliver thinks he's a drug addict because that's the excuse he used for his complete freakout, after he got back from their dumping Sam's body. In other words I don't agree that Connor's feelings are solely about self-preservation, like the fact that he played a part in a man's murder doesn't bother him. 

 

Whatever Connor was, arrogant, manwhore - these things are a far cry from being a murderer. And a series of really fucked up circumstances left him with blood on his hands and I think he is genuinely reeling from that and genuinely believes that it's only a matter of time before this all comes out which makes sense. Statistically, when that many people are involved in a crime it's rare the whole thing doesn't eventually come out. 

 

And Connor was the one who did suggest going to the police and even convinced Michaela to go along with it. Yes his argument was that it was all Wes and Rebecca's fault but he wasn't wrong or lying. As he stated, Rebecca came into the house and stole Sam's property and Wes told them she was in danger, not that she was illegally in the house and Wes dealt the final blow. He and Michaela were very ready to go confess that they did help dispose the body. But they tried to convince Laurel to get onboard who ran to Wes who then ran to Annalise. And Annalise played her concerned mother act, hugging and caressing them and telling them how hard she knew the situation was for them but that they just needed to trust in her and she'd get them all out of it and yeah they believed her. 

 

And I'm not saying that to act like he's right that everything is Annalise's fault but these three - Laurel, Connor, Michaela - if you think about it, were all unwilling and unsuspecting pawns to both Wes and Annalise. That night they all had no clue Annalise knew what happened and didn't realize every step they took after Wes went back for the trophy was him acting on Annalise's orders. Again, I'm not saying I agree that the whole situation was Annalise's fault - no, it was Wes and Rebecca's in my opinion that Sam ended up dead that night. But I do sympathize with and feel bad for Connor. And frankly Connor's spiral is making me like him more because in my opinion, it's showing that he does have a conscience. If he didn't, he could have let this go a long time ago but the whole thing is still weighing heavily on him.

 

There's no way that four people would just walk away from a suitcase stuffed with money. 

 

 

They would if they were sure it was illegal. I'm sure all the four are well aware that Frank does some questionable, illegal stuff. What they were questioning was his killing Rebecca. So when they saw it was just money in the suitcase, they probably figured it was some shady Frank dealing that they had no interest in finding about. Also, all three, aside from Wes just looked exhausted with all the crap going on in their lives and like they just wanted to get away from Wes and his latest drama.

 

Plus, if that is indeed the suitcase Frank stuffed Rebecca in, it would have her DNA inside.

 

 

I really doubt it's the same suitcase. 

Edited October 24, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[UncleChuck]

I think that Laurel was only half-kidding when she suggested an orgy for the scooby gang.  And perhaps a bit disappointed when no one showed any interest.

[RedheadZombie]

Jasmine, all of what you said.

 

I was thinking this tonight, as far as we know, Annalise is the only one who doesn't have blood on her hands, but is accused the most in being involved in the murders by almost everyone. I don't know if she'd get off for her cover up, but I don't believe she'd get as harsh of a ruling as the others.

 

TBH, I'm sick of Connor's crying about how she has control of them because, before he participated in the murder, there was nothing keeping them there besides them wanting her approval and the experience that came with working under her. I honestly can't recall a time she's ever used the murder against them to blackmail them into anything other than when Connor came in flinging accusations at her. Annalise focuses on the now all while they obsess over the past. I'm not saying Connor shouldn't be upset, but he should stop blaming his shit on Annalise and either own up to his part or shut the fuck up.

 

Annalise has a lot of self loathing, but I think here actions and motivations are far more complicated than she is credited for. Hell yes, a lot of what she does is messed up, especially the Nate situation. But, I understand her reaction in that situation, either way it's spun, she's fucked. She could tell them truth, but then they'd still find a way to claim she did it or influenced those students to kill her husband. Or accuse her of lying--of brain washing them and so forth. But, ultimately, Annalise covered up for them because of Sam. Her marriage was already a disaster before the Lila issue arose because of his infidelity and his indiscretions kept hurting and humiliating her. But, then she asked him flat out about Lila and flat out lied to her face, and then tried to cover his tracks. He got this other girl pregnant and some other shit I forgot about in addition to his final words he said to her.

 

Annalise was hurt that he died because she loved him, but she still believed he deserved his fate because he killed an innocent girl, even though this girl was fucking her husband, all because the girl was pregnant and threatened to expose him. She was absolutely sick of his shit by then and decided she'd rather help cover his murder and not have that stigma attached to those kids as well as take on the scrutiny because no one could prove she did it, rather than turn them in.

 

She did nothing because she was in disbelief and shock--sure, the planning came next, but I don't think she gave to shits about justice for Sam because she believed he deserved his fate.

 

And why would Bonnie admit to Annalise, of all people, to committing a murder she wasn't responsible for??? Who is she protecting?

 

I just think Annalise is this toxic, bitter, anger, lying, and manipulative person because of his molestation and the events surrounding it. She thought her mother ignored her abuse and carried that shame and hatred with her to college/law school where she met Eve, and then Sam. I mean, who gets involved with their therapist and thinks that will turn out well? Sam is probably the first person she had an honest conversation about her molestation to who didn't make her feel bad and she developed feelings for him. Sam, the serial cheater he was, indulged in her feelings and allowed the affair to happen. Annalise thought nothing of his infidelity and thought they had something, but when the same happened to her, she put up with it because of the connection she formed with him during their sessions and whatever intimate talks they had after that.

 

My point being: Annalise 's "normal" is toxic relationships where she has to manipulate and lie. She didn't feel protected and listened to as a girl, and then got until an unequal relationship with her therapist. She has hella reason to be bitter and anger even if some of the shit she's experienced is self imposed. Her actions are messed up and she knows this, but she doesn't know how to fix her. At the same time, I don't think she behaves like this because she wants to manipulate everyone and doesn't give two shits about them.

 

On a general note, I don't think if this is truth in TV or not, but in all of the law firm TV shows I've seen, both sides flirt or cross ethical lines--the trick is knowing how to get away with it. Although the judge may have not believed Annalise in a genuine

sense, her disbelief of Annalise's evidence seemed abrupt MO.

 

Responding in Annalise's thread.

Edited October 24, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[Happytobehere]

Jasmine, all of what you said.

 

I was thinking this tonight, as far as we know, Annalise is the only one who doesn't have blood on her hands, but is accused the most in being involved in the murders by almost everyone. I don't know if she'd get off for her cover up, but I don't believe she'd get as harsh of a ruling as the others.

 

TBH, I'm sick of Connor's crying about how she has control of them because, before he participated in the murder, there was nothing keeping them there besides them wanting her approval and the experience that came with working under her. I honestly can't recall a time she's ever used the murder against them to blackmail them into anything other than when Connor came in flinging accusations at her. Annalise focuses on the now all while they obsess over the past. I'm not saying Connor shouldn't be upset, but he should stop blaming his shit on Annalise and either own up to his part or shut the fuck up.

 

Annalise has a lot of self loathing, but I think here actions and motivations are far more complicated than she is credited for. Hell yes, a lot of what she does is messed up, especially the Nate situation. But, I understand her reaction in that situation, either way it's spun, she's fucked. She could tell them truth, but then they'd still find a way to claim she did it or influenced those students to kill her husband. Or accuse her of lying--of brain washing them and so forth. But, ultimately, Annalise covered up for them because of Sam. Her marriage was already a disaster before the Lila issue arose because of his infidelity and his indiscretions kept hurting and humiliating her. But, then she asked him flat out about Lila and flat out lied to her face, and then tried to cover his tracks. He got this other girl pregnant and some other shit I forgot about in addition to his final words he said to her.

 

Annalise was hurt that he died because she loved him, but she still believed he deserved his fate because he killed an innocent girl, even though this girl was fucking her husband, all because the girl was pregnant and threatened to expose him. She was absolutely sick of his shit by then and decided she'd rather help cover his murder and not have that stigma attached to those kids as well as take on the scrutiny because no one could prove she did it, rather than turn them in.

 

She did nothing because she was in disbelief and shock--sure, the planning came next, but I don't think she gave to shits about justice for Sam because she believed he deserved his fate.

 

And why would Bonnie admit to Annalise, of all people, to committing a murder she wasn't responsible for??? Who is she protecting?

 

I just think Annalise is this toxic, bitter, anger, lying, and manipulative person because of his molestation and the events surrounding it. She thought her mother ignored her abuse and carried that shame and hatred with her to college/law school where she met Eve, and then Sam. I mean, who gets involved with their therapist and thinks that will turn out well? Sam is probably the first person she had an honest conversation about her molestation to who didn't make her feel bad and she developed feelings for him. Sam, the serial cheater he was, indulged in her feelings and allowed the affair to happen. Annalise thought nothing of his infidelity and thought they had something, but when the same happened to her, she put up with it because of the connection she formed with him during their sessions and whatever intimate talks they had after that.

 

My point being: Annalise 's "normal" is toxic relationships where she has to manipulate and lie. She didn't feel protected and listened to as a girl, and then got until an unequal relationship with her therapist. She has hella reason to be bitter and anger even if some of the shit she's experienced is self imposed. Her actions are messed up and she knows this, but she doesn't know how to fix her. At the same time, I don't think she behaves like this because she wants to manipulate everyone and doesn't give two shits about them.

 

On a general note, I don't think if this is truth in TV or not, but in all of the law firm TV shows I've seen, both sides flirt or cross ethical lines--the trick is knowing how to get away with it. Although the judge may have not believed Annalise in a genuine sense, her disbelief of Annalise's evidence seemed abrupt MO.

I love this entire post as it sums up how I feel about the show and the characters.

My main question for this season isn't what Asher did at Trotter Lake, but how can they keep the Keating 5 in place next season as it looks like they are imploding right before our eyes.

Strange as it sounds, the member of the Scooby Gang I LK,e the least is Laurel. As messed up as the others and Asher are, there is something about her that is off, and with this bunch that's saying something. I actually get never out when she's in scenes with Frank because of the 5, she is the one I believe would kill someone just for the thrill of it.

I am liking finding out more about Frank and Bonnie and seeing their connection to Ananlise, I'd like to,see how each relationship began. When all is said and done and the show inevitably ends, I want Annalise, Frank and Bonnie left standing and united after the three of them have thrown each of the Keating 5 to the wolves.

[TrizzyMarx]

Geez, this show has the most unlikable cast of characters that I've ever  seen .  Not one of them has even a single redeeming quality.  I think that I tune in every week just to see which of them is going to be the most despicable.  When are they actually going to show Annalise getting shot? They've been trolling this BS every week since the season opener. Enough already! Shoot the woman and move on.

I think that the characters are set up that way for a reason. None of them are going to be likable, and none of them are meant to be perfect. Every character has a dark past and an insecurity that represents who they are and what they do, including the Keating 5. Personally, the most likable character for me is Annalise. I feel bad for her because she's done a lot as a lawyer to not only protect the Keating 5, but protect everyone else. She put her lover on the line just to protect them despite their selfish ways. Granted, Annalise is a very complicated character, but the entire cast is. We don't know what to expect when it comes to them, because the writers surprise us every time.

 

Also, the writers are continuing to show the flash-forward scenes like they did in Season 1. The only difference is that Season 2's flashforwards are way more complicated to understand, meaning that the writers want us to be confused. They want us to be anxious and expect the unexpected, no matter what theories we make. Some may be true, and some may be not. But until the mid-season finale, or the actual finale, we'll have to wait and see.

[TrizzyMarx]

I love this entire post as it sums up how I feel about the show and the characters.

My main question for this season isn't what Asher did at Trotter Lake, but how can they keep the Keating 5 in place next season as it looks like they are imploding right before our eyes.

Strange as it sounds, the member of the Scooby Gang I LK,e the least is Laurel. As messed up as the others and Asher are, there is something about her that is off, and with this bunch that's saying something. I actually get never out when she's in scenes with Frank because of the 5, she is the one I believe would kill someone just for the thrill of it.

I am liking finding out more about Frank and Bonnie and seeing their connection to Ananlise, I'd like to,see how each relationship began. When all is said and done and the show inevitably ends, I want Annalise, Frank and Bonnie left standing and united after the three of them have thrown each of the Keating 5 to the wolves.

Your first point, regarding Asher: I don't think Asher is as innocent as they try to make him. Whatever happened at Trotter Lake likely involved him, and he probably did something unethical that we don't know about. Whatever the D.A. knows about Trotter Lake was forcing Asher to put Annalise in jeopardy, which I honestly was worried about. Asher is not aware of anything that happened with Sam's murder, and for Bonnie to cover up what Wes and the Keating 5 was a good and a bad thing. If Asher knew what really happened, he'd probably still make a statement. Personally, I think Asher killed that girl at Trotter Lake, or he witnessed it, or helped someone do it. Perhaps Tiffany was his ex-girlfriend that he accidentally murdered, so he could have committed manslaughter. But the one thing I do know is that Asher's Trotter Lake storyline is extremely vague, and I hope we find out more about it soon.

 

Your second point: The Keating 5 never really connected as much until Sam's murder happened. We know that Connor and Michaela are bonding more, but we also know that no one trusts Wes either. I think after Annalise fires them next week, they're probably going to be stuck together because that murder will probably haunt them forever. Asher is so out of the loop... to the point where I think he'll lose his mind and do something he may regret. If Annalise brings the Keating 5 back next season, it may depend on the result. But from what I've seen, I'm uncertain they'll get their jobs back, especially after leaving her in the house like that.

 

Laurel: Aside from Wes now, Laurel is the sneakiest and strangest one out of the Keating 5. I can personally tolerate Connor and Michaela, because they're the most distraught. Ever since Laurel stole Michaela's engagement ring, I never seemed to trust her character. What she did was a good tactic, but it's still suspicious to me. Her affair with Frank went too far for me. Especially based on that almost explicit, vivid scene of Frank and Laurel having sex. Laurel is doing everything she can to get information out of Frank. She's sneaky.

 

Frank and Bonnie: I actually love the development we're getting from Frank and Bonnie's characters. The only thing that got me is Annalise's keepsake of Bonnie's father's video. Not only was that disturbing, but it was just really sad for Bonnie. We know that there's more to Bonnie than her killing Rebecca, or her loyalty to Annalise. The fact that Frank and Bonnie are so damn loyal to her is crazy, as if she's protecting them. The only thing I want to know is if Annalise knows that Frank killed Lila. Bonnie knows it well enough.

[secnarf]

Frank and Bonnie: I actually love the development we're getting from Frank and Bonnie's characters. The only thing that got me is Annalise's keepsake of Bonnie's father's video. Not only was that disturbing, but it was just really sad for Bonnie. We know that there's more to Bonnie than her killing Rebecca, or her loyalty to Annalise. The fact that Frank and Bonnie are so damn loyal to her is crazy, as if she's protecting them. The only thing I want to know is if Annalise knows that Frank killed Lila. Bonnie knows it well enough.

When did we find out that Bonnie knows Frank killed Lila? I don't recall anything like that.

 

I actually really like Laurel. I think she's the character I'd be most likely to be friends with, surprisingly.

I appreciate her bluntness and her intelligence.

 

Edit: upon rewatching, I noticed that Annalise tells the others that Asher was going to "testify against every person in this house". I don't know if that's what Annalise believed or not, since presumably she wasn't privvy to the details of Asher's deal, but his deal was really only to testify against Annalise. Bonnie confessed to save Annalise, not the students.

 

Also, "I was mad that you didn't tell us about Asher. But now you told us. So I guess I have nothing to be mad about." This was the lamest line ever - it makes me laugh every time because it's such a pathetic excuse.

Edited October 24, 2015 by secnarf

[Joimiaroxeu]

Annalise's scenes with Nate always frustrate me as I can never work out when she's being genuine and when she's just playing him.

That's where I am too and I hate it. Nate did not deserve what she did to him. I'm still wondering if that's the reason she got involved with him to begin with--to set him up for the future killing of her husband. Whatever, I hope he never gives into her again; she should not get to enjoy that glorious body anymore. (But could we in the audience get a peek at it again? Pretty please?)

 

are they genuine or not?

Given that she keeps lying to him and trying to manipulate him, I'm voting "Not".

 

I love the police calling Levi 'Heisenberg' ha!

Yes, that was great. I love when people on TV shows reference watching other TV shows. It's so meta.

 

Since I did not see a single mention of it, I assume that I am in the wrong, but I feel like Asher said something that implied he had a son we have never met? From the Thing At The Lake?]

No, I think he was speaking of himself from his father's perspective.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Joimiaroxeu

[JasmineFlower]

For me as a lay person, that seems a bit like a distinction without a difference. I take it "accessory" is more serious, but what is the difference? "Obstruction" is just passive keeping schtumm, whereas an "accessory" takes an active part?

 

So, accessory after the fact really means that you assisted with completing the commission of the crime though you didn't commit the primary crime. So, basically the offender wouldn't have been able to get away without your help. A getaway driver in a bank heist can get charged with this though they are also likely be charged with conspiracy as well. Obstruction of justice is much more that you put up road blocks during the investigation and prosecution of the crime, but not involved with the immediate commission of the crime. They are major differences especially in prison sentences. Accessory after the fact would be more like 10 years in prison, but obstruction would be a lot closer to 2. Both can be greater or lesser depending on a number of factors though.

 

It still seems up in the air exactly what Bonnie's full role is in covering up the first 2 murders, but it seems clear she's at least helped with obstructing justice. But I really just might not be remembering some of the steps she did. Like I know she talked to the co-ed and diverted her on the night she was killed. Did she help with getting her on top of that roof, telling Frank where she was? If so, then could be accessory (before the fact) since she helped with setting up the circumstances that allowed the crime to be committed.

[krimimimi]

Thanks JasmineFlower, once again very helpful! I'm trying to decide if it matters to me what all Bonnie is guilty of, if she's a murderer anyway. (Like hearing she cheated on her SATs at this point probably shouldn't change my opinion of her.)

I'm a little fuzzy on the flashbacks we were shown - so maybe somebody can weigh in: Now that we know Bonnie has falsely confessed to Sam's murder (which she almost definitely didn't do, unless stupid horror movie scenario that I do.not.accept), does this mean we have cause to doubt her confession re: killing Rebecca? Or were we shown a reliable/ trustworthy flashback of that? Because I was happy to cross that question off my list, and would hate to see it reopened.

[secnarf]

It still seems up in the air exactly what Bonnie's full role is in covering up the first 2 murders, but it seems clear she's at least helped with obstructing justice. But I really just might not be remembering some of the steps she did. Like I know she talked to the co-ed and diverted her on the night she was killed. Did she help with getting her on top of that roof, telling Frank where she was? If so, then could be accessory (before the fact) since she helped with setting up the circumstances that allowed the crime to be committed.

There has been no indication that I can recall in which Bonnie assisted in Lila's murder. She just told her to leave the house that night, not where to go after.

 

Thanks JasmineFlower, once again very helpful! I'm trying to decide if it matters to me what all Bonnie is guilty of, if she's a murderer anyway. (Like hearing she cheated on her SATs at this point probably shouldn't change my opinion of her.)

I'm a little fuzzy on the flashbacks we were shown - so maybe somebody can weigh in: Now that we know Bonnie has falsely confessed to Sam's murder (which she almost definitely didn't do, unless stupid horror movie scenario that I do.not.accept), does this mean we have cause to doubt her confession re: killing Rebecca? Or were we shown a reliable/ trustworthy flashback of that? Because I was happy to cross that question off my list, and would hate to see it reopened.

I think that we can trust the flashbacks that we have been shown. We were not shown flashbacks of Bonnie actually committing Sam's murder, it is only something she said. On the other hand, we were shown actual flashbacks of Sam's and Rebecca's murders.

I could be wrong about this, but I am currently operating under the assumption that we can trust flashbacks (and flash-forwards).

[dgpolo]

I thought I saw 'flashbacks'? of both Bonnie and Frank killing Lila, but maybe her's was a 'speculation' type thing?

As for Bonnie or Annaliese killing Sam after Wes hit him, I don't think we have to reference horror films, there is a semi famous scene in a not so famous Hitchcock film called Torn Curtain where Paul Newman has to kill someone and it takes over five minutes to get it done, Hitch said he wanted to show how difficult it was to really kill someone.

I think there are too many things to keep track of, I'm just hoping Ollie can stay out of it, I don't want him going down with the others.

[secnarf]

I thought I saw 'flashbacks'? of both Bonnie and Frank killing Lila, but maybe her's was a 'speculation' type thing?

As for Bonnie or Annaliese killing Sam after Wes hit him, I don't think we have to reference horror films, there is a semi famous scene in a not so famous Hitchcock film called Torn Curtain where Paul Newman has to kill someone and it takes over five minutes to get it done, Hitch said he wanted to show how difficult it was to really kill someone.

I think there are too many things to keep track of, I'm just hoping Ollie can stay out of it, I don't want him going down with the others.

I don't recall any flashbacks of Bonnie killing Lila? Do you remember which episode(s) it/they were in?

[dgpolo]

Sorry! sorry! I meant Rebecca, the scene in the basement with plastic over her head? I thought I saw it first with Frank or someone and then with Bonnie? I'm googling I let you know if I find what I was thinking.

 

ETA: Nope, can't find it anywhere, I guess I was just imagining it. :(

Edited October 25, 2015 by dgpolo

[TrizzyMarx]

When did we find out that Bonnie knows Frank killed Lila? I don't recall anything like that.

 

I actually really like Laurel. I think she's the character I'd be most likely to be friends with, surprisingly.

I appreciate her bluntness and her intelligence.

 

Edit: upon rewatching, I noticed that Annalise tells the others that Asher was going to "testify against every person in this house". I don't know if that's what Annalise believed or not, since presumably she wasn't privvy to the details of Asher's deal, but his deal was really only to testify against Annalise. Bonnie confessed to save Annalise, not the students.

 

Also, "I was mad that you didn't tell us about Asher. But now you told us. So I guess I have nothing to be mad about." This was the lamest line ever - it makes me laugh every time because it's such a pathetic excuse.

I think there was a scene where I thought Bonnie knew, in the second episode, when Frank and Bonnie had a scene. I probably took it the wrong way!

[rozen]

I dunno, I'm ready for K5 to go die in a fiery blaze and just watch the Annalise, Bonnie, and Frank show. There is literally nothing critical to their existence that would have changed Annalise's ability to A) let them take the rap or B) pin it on Nate if the prosecution came for her anyway. And rather than saying thank you and considering a lifetime indenture to The Best Defense Attorney Evah a good deal, they all keep trying to screw themselves, and Annalise too. What part of this ridiculous *bleeping* digging does Wes think won't come back on all of them? The way they crowded around Bonnie like a bunch of jackals (ignoring the fact she's been in this world waaaaay longer than them), so self-assured in their accusations was disgusting.

 

They are all the literal worst. At least Annalise/Frank/Bonnie are horrible people who are damn good at it. The K5 are all horrible people desperately trying to ruin as many lives as possible as they sink faster than the Titanic. They're like a nexus of stupid. I'm half-convinced they would have gotten themselves into prison some other way, even if Annalise had never taken them.

 

I pretty much assume anytime Annalise has her "game face" makeup on and starts crying, she's working someone. I only trust her reactions when she's alone, with no makeup or wig, even more so if she's getting her booze on.

[rexytheking]

I'm honestly half expecting a Dexter like scene where someone dies and everyone shifts any and all blame onto that person. 

[JasmineFlower]

There has been no indication that I can recall in which Bonnie assisted in Lila's murder. She just told her to leave the house that night, not where to go after.

 

I was just speculating with that theory. Given everything we know about Bonnie, and what we know about Bonnie and Frank's relationship thus far, I personally don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that the reason Frank knew where to find Lila was that Bonnie helped with getting her there or giving Frank the heads up on where to find her and "handle" the problem. It absolutely hasn't been shown on the show yet, I was giving a what if on if that was the case and what her associated charge would be if that was revealed down the line.