S06.E02: JSS

[Constantinople]

Carol's Kill Everyone has its virtues, but not all threats are the same.

 

I recall Carol being exiled for premature termination with extreme prejudice when Karen and David were sick.  I didn't criticize Carol, but a lot of people did.  I suspect had Morgan been around, he would have taken a wait and see approach with regards to their illness.

 

I think Glenn had the opportunity to kill Tara after the Governor's second failed attack on the prison, but he chose not to kill her.  I believe Morgan would have done the same as Glenn.  I'm not so sure what present day Carol would do.

 

As others have noted, Morgan's catch-and-release live-and-let-live philosophy is less dangerous as a wandering hermit than as a member of a settled community; so it may take some time for Morgan to adapt.

 

It's not as if CDB didn't have its learning curve.  How long did they spend arguing what to do about Randall?  Are they going to kill him?  Are they not going to kill him?  Are they going to drop him off in the middle of nowhere?  As I recall, Carol's input into the debate was to say she'd go along with whatever everyone else decided.

 

Killing Randall would have been an execution since they wouldn't be killing him in the heat of battle, as they killed the wolves (with the exception of the one that Morgan tied up and that Carol shot).  But it amounts to much the same thing if the rationale for taking no prisoners is there's no safe way to feed and guard them.

 

Even after all they've been through, CDB has done plenty of stupid, like believing Gene and essentially walking right into Terminus.  Why is Bob dead?  Ultimately because everyone thought it would be a good idea to go into a partially submerged basement to collect some food that wasn't all that valuable.

 

So I'm cutting Morgan more than a little slack.

[Haleth]

I have to believe the writers have something more in store for Morgan than being Tyreese v 2.0.  Surely they are aware of the side eye from viewers about all the dead or pacifist Black men?  Come on, people love Morgan and Lennie James.  The writers can't waste the character or actor with a retread storyline, right? 

 

The boy who plays Sam certainly grew a lot over the break.  

 

Kudos to everyone for the cheese puns.  (Or should that be curdos?)

Edited October 20, 2015 by Haleth

[JackONeill]

Obviously, I don't know if I'd be Carol, Morgan or Eugene.  Few of us really do (except for those who have been in the service or been police).

 

But here's the thing: the ferocity of the attack that Carol witnessed. I think that sort of rules out having them in for tea (and cheese) and trying to talk through things. Then, Carol saw more things when she went outside (in other words, it wasn't a random occurrence.  At that point, I think she knew these were savages).

 

Maybe this is easier said than done, but at that point I think it's obvious that it's either you (the Wolf) or me.

[nachomama]

 

So I'm cutting Morgan more than a little slack.

Are you cutting the cheese? I'll show myself out.

 

I don't think Morgan is a coward. Far from it. He is willing to die out there with his stick. and I know it's because he was once so far out there over the edge that he thinks the wolves brand of crazy is curable. I was on the fence about Tyreese, but after he flat out lied about taking care of Martin I was done with him. But generally he wasn't cowardly, he fought plenty. Eugene is a coward so it has nothing to do with race. 

[lulee]

Carol's Kill Everyone has its virtues, but not all threats are the same.

 

I recall Carol being exiled for premature termination with extreme prejudice when Karen and David were sick.  I didn't criticize Carol, but a lot of people did.  I suspect had Morgan been around, he would have taken a wait and see approach with regards to their illness.

 

I think Glenn had the opportunity to kill Tara after the Governor's second failed attack on the prison, but he chose not to kill her.  I believe Morgan would have done the same as Glenn.  I'm not so sure what present day Carol would do.

 

As others have noted, Morgan's catch-and-release live-and-let-live philosophy is less dangerous as a wandering hermit than as a member of a settled community; so it may take some time for Morgan to adapt.

 

It's not as if CDB didn't have its learning curve.  How long did they spend arguing what to do about Randall?  Are they going to kill him?  Are they not going to kill him?  Are they going to drop him off in the middle of nowhere?  As I recall, Carol's input into the debate was to say she'd go along with whatever everyone else decided.

 

Killing Randall would have been an execution since they wouldn't be killing him in the heat of battle, as they killed the wolves (with the exception of the one that Morgan tied up and that Carol shot).  But it amounts to much the same thing if the rationale for taking no prisoners is there's no safe way to feed and guard them.

 

Even after all they've been through, CDB has done plenty of stupid, like believing Gene and essentially walking right into Terminus.  Why is Bob dead?  Ultimately because everyone thought it would be a good idea to go into a partially submerged basement to collect some food that wasn't all that valuable.

 

So I'm cutting Morgan more than a little slack.

I absolutely cut Morgan slack. As much as I hoped he'd just dispatch the Wolves this past Sunday, I understood that this wasn't a fight he was prepared for.

I'm oddly reminded of an article I read about U.S. military veterans talking about their experiences in Afghanistan. Some of them talked about not knowing who the "enemy' was and how the "enemy" would change from one day to the next -- so there's uncertainty of who to trust and the feeling of not wanting to take aim at innocents.

Another vet talked about having trained for combat within 500m but found instead that they were shot at from 1000m. That wasn't the war they prepared for -- that was Morgan's situation. The decision and manner of protecting a community were not in Morgan's wheelhouse - yet.

Finally, I don't think anyone in CDB - unless we go way back to Shane - would have killed Tara at the prison. She was cowering and practically catatonic. She posed no threat. The writers left us debating the merits of Carol's killings of Karvid (when they could have shown it unambiguously such as Karvid on the verge of death), but with Tara at the prison, it would have only been vengeance.

That Wolf that Carol shot while he was babbling about Wolfhood would have still killed them if released, I'm with Carol on that, and in contrast to what others said, I don't think she regretted his death in particular. The way he was babbling, he wouldn't have given any useful intel, just more Code of the Wolf BS like the two guys Morgan faced last season. I think Carol was upset about the Alexandrians who died - and that she couldn't save them - and upset about killing but not about boundandnotgagged Wolf in particular.

Edited October 20, 2015 by lulee

[kj4ever]

I'm willing to bet Carol can make pasta using applesauce and cream of celery soup.  Delicious with Cola canned ham!

 

Or she just uses flour and oil, with a bit of water.  After all, egg is essentially just a mix of water, fat and protein. 

They were like grossed out that Carol was going to be using it.  Seriously did these people ever think of the future?  Going on runs is only going to feed them for so long, and a lot of stuff has got to be just nasty now.  They have all that time that they weren't devoting to surviving/fighting and didn't even plant food?  WTH were they doing all that time besides book club?

 

Oh and FYI about my AARP comment - I'm super close to being in that club myself so it was meant tongue-in-cheek.

[Boilergal]

My take is that Morgan is a loner - he has been out there alone and has probably been able to avoid groups, and walkers.  If he does encounter people he can  talk/knock out/threaten/ his way out of situations, like his last run in with the Wolves.  Since this has been working for him he doesn't feel that it is necessary to kill people he believes that he can negotiate his safety.  This doesn't make him weak, it makes him an awesome negotiator.

 

CDB on the other hand had the baddies at the prison, run in at Governorville, terminus and other assorted groups that had raping and murdering in mind.  CDB has been in more situations where they had to fight for their survival, and very few negotiating events (hospital).  Now they are hyper alert, when they feel threatened they know how badly it can go, and and how fast.  They go into survival mode a lot faster, for them it's more of a kill or be killed world.

 

The Governor and that whole experience really shaped how they all are now.  They negotiated for freedom from the Governor and return to the prison - call it a truce and live happily ever after.    But the Governor came back and tried to make CDB Zombie Chow.  That's when they learned that they can't just live and let live - you gotta get rid of groups that want to destroy you - there are no truces.

 

I like how they mentioned that all the food is starting to expire - bring a little reality into it.

[CletusMusashi]

I also think Carol may see herself as "damaged goods," in the sense that she's already committed heinous acts, right or wrong, and therefore it's her burden to carry on severe acts for the group at large.  So they don't have to.  I didn't feel like she had anything to prove to Morgan.  That was entirely a one-sided conversation on his part.  She was going to kill those invaders, period, and Morgan's opinion or even presence was irrelevant to her. 

 

In some ways she reminds of Clint Eastwood's antihero character in his old westerns.  He's emotionally and mentally separate from everyone else, while he operates as the necessary killer the rest of "society" doesn't want to be, yet needs in desperate circumstances.  And he's usually disliked by them.

Carol's in a spaghetti western. It must be Tuesday.

[editorgrrl]

Who the hell is Enid? Where did she come from? Was she on the show last year? Did we know any of her backstory before? Who does she live with?

Enid was introduced in Season 5, Episode 12. She had been at Alexandria for about eight months (without speaking for the first three weeks) and hung out with Jess's son Ron and Nicholas's son Mikey. I have no idea with whom she lives.

Carl followed Enid when she went over the wall, and they hid from walkers inside a hollow tree. Last episode, Ron saw Enid & Carl holding hands on a roof.

[CletusMusashi]

One difference between Alexandria and Afghanistan is that I think it's a lot easier to keep track of who the enemy is if they all have a big W on their head that stands for "We are going to kill everybody here unless you kill us first!" And they are in the immediate process of killing everybody there unless you kill them first. And they are saying: "We are going to kill everybody here unless you kill us first." What was he waiting for? "Simon says?"

Granted, he did try to to restrain that one guy, but, putting aside the fact that CDB does not have a good history of figuring out what to do with prisoners... how does Morgan feel about interrogation by torture? I mean, do you really think Season Six Rick wouldn't do things to that Wolf that would give Jack Bauer nightmares?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

 

I just recall what Jenner said in the S1 finale, "The resurrection times vary wildly. We had reports of it happening in as little as three minutes. The longest we heard of was eight hours"

If walker in the truck didn't turn until after after being shot and killed by WhatsHisName in the tower, I'm not even sure if 3 minutes elapsed by the time WhatsHisName got to the truck.

 

So Plotonium seems the best explanation, particularly since the dead ASZhats and other dead Wolves didn't seem in any rush to reanimate (though I can't recall if you reanimate if you're shot in the head the first time you die).

 

I could be wrong, but I think that its been established that a person doesn't reanimate if their brain (or brain-stem) was 'killed' when the natural life ended.

[Haleth]

They were like grossed out that Carol was going to be using it.  Seriously did these people ever think of the future?  Going on runs is only going to feed them for so long, and a lot of stuff has got to be just nasty now.  They have all that time that they weren't devoting to surviving/fighting and didn't even plant food?  WTH were they doing all that time besides book club?

 

I made a comment about this last season.  What the heck were these people doing all day besides cocktail parties and book clubs?  Why weren't they using those lovely manicured lawns for planting vegetables?  Were they relying solely on what was being brought back from food runs to sustain themselves?  No one had a job job like in the pre ZA days, so they all should have been doing hands on work to make the community livable.  We never saw anyone working, other than the runners or Tobin's group last season with whatever they were doing.  It took Maggie to make the suggestion for Deanna to even consider growing food?  The hell, Deanna?  

 

Then this got me thinking.  Crops, ok, but there is no livestock to be had.  There is going to be a serious need for protein for these people.  Squirrels and turtles can only feed so many.  But the biggest problem they will face?  No more dairy cows (or goats) = NO MORE CHEESE!

 

One other thing, Aaron's photos didn't have directions to find ASZ, so it's a fluke that the wolves found the community.  Maybe they followed the runners back or something, but the blame can't be on Aaron.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Haleth

[ghoulina]

Whose life did Rick spare and they turned around and killed others?

 

Andrew. Who was responsible for the death of his wife. Okay, technically he didn't think he spared Andrew's life. He thought he was running out into a pack of walkers and they would take care of him. But he should have finished the job himself. 

 

Don't you need eggs to make fresh pasta? I haven't seen any chickens in ASZ.

 

Please allow me to introduce you to Father Gabriel. 

[CletusMusashi]

I'm willing to bet Carol can make pasta using applesauce and cream of celery soup.  Delicious with Cola canned ham!

 

Or she just uses flour and oil, with a bit of water.  After all, egg is essentially just a mix of water, fat and protein. 

Actually... so is a human...

[The Mighty Peanut]

For those of you who are familiar with the Bad Lip Reading skit in which Daryl has a pet turtle, Anthony, whom Beth hates, I know we were all thinking the same thing:

[halkatla]

Best TWD episode EVER! How intense, how epic... Carol was doing such a great job being a perfect homemaker and cook, and then BAM! she transforms into the greatest zombie-slayer of all time. Or just a slayer in general. I loved how the wolves came out of nowhere and didn´t have any guns. They scared me a bit with that. And there was no Darryl, yet I hardly noticed, and Carl didn´t get on my nerves at all. I feel like I deserved this, after putting myself through that FTWD mess. The only thing that I would change is Morgan´s no-kill policy, it´s wrong in every way and makes me dislike him a bit, even though he´s an awesome fighter.

[Giselle]

I have to believe the writers have something more in store for Morgan than being Tyreese v 2.0.  Surely they are aware of the side eye from viewers about all the dead or pacifist Black men?  Come on, people love Morgan and Lennie James.  The writers can't waste the character or actor with a retread storyline, right? 

 

The boy who plays Sam certainly grew a lot over the break.  

 

Kudos to everyone for the cheese puns.  (Or should that be curdos?)

 

When it comes to black males on the show it seems that there can be only one... at a time. The Walking Dead SOP has always been where two are gathered one will surely die so will it be the Reverend or Morgan?

 

 

 

edited for double post.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Giselle

[Timetoread]

Remember how the little boy was stamping everyone at the party with the letter "A" for Alexandria?  You even saw a reference to that where there was an  "A" stamped on the white post in front of a house. So the Wolves adopted the same letter stamping idea by using a "W" to stand for their group

 

It is my belief that the Wolves are the group that took over Terminus, that the Termites became monsters to overcome.  That babbling was like the dude that they let out the crate.  I could ALMOST understand the Termites feeling that ALL or most humans were like this and they can either show themselves worthy of joining the group or they can be food.  Honestly, for a whole season buildup the Terminus story ended too quickly.

 

While I agree that Morgan should be putting folks down, say what you will about him but one thing is for sure. He's survived just as long as Rick and his followers. He's survived in the same world they have and he's done it without a community of support that Rick and his followers have.

 

 

I think an issue for a few is that Carol's stance is clearly the smart, better, superior stance. Morgan's stance is stupid, idiotic and even selfish (saw that description somewhere in here). Carol is absolutely, totally right and Morgan is absolutely, totally wrong. There is no balance let alone any balance between Morgan's stance and Carol's in this situation.

 

Maybe it would have played better for some if these differences were set in a situation that wasn't so cut and dry. If a viable argument could be made for Morgan's stance and Carol's stance wasn't so clearly the right one, if there was some balance between the two then maybe this "standoff" being seen as simply showing philosophical differences would have been how some viewed it.

 

Here's my take on both Morgan AND Carol.  Let me start by saying that I am not, and have never been, a big fan of either one.  Morgan hasn't been on enough for me to bond with him and Carol I flat out dislike, and have since the very beginning.  That said both have compelling elements in their story that speaks to humanity as a whole.

 

Morgan did NOT survive in the same world as Rick.  Morgan is not Rick by any stretch.  Morgan stayed alive, but he was unable to cope - staying in the same place with his son, mourning the walker that used to be his wife.  Listening everyday for Rick.  He is a man whose tendency was to plant in one place.  Then he lost his son and lost his mind too.  He stayed in the same place but became a warrior of nothing.  Killing what is already dead and clearing out an empty town.  I don't know what happened after Clear, and I would love to hear what happened, to make him finally move.  He's grown strong physically but I don't think his mind has yet.

 

Then we have Carol.  From a victim to an agressor.  It's been an interesting ride for Carol but she's no hero and she is also not Rick.  I know the internet is awash in adoration for the new Mary Sue, but I don't trust Carol one bit.  Not even a little.  I honestly wonder where this is going because while I am alone in my feelings for her, I feel like the writing for her is on par with them.

 

So here's how they are both opposite sides of the same coin. Their every action is for self.  It is about how they define themselves, how they feel about themselves.  Who they used to be, who they could be, who they should be.  Carol right now has one goal - to no longer be a victim.  But in doing so she becomes a psychological victimizer, talking to kids like they are grownups and talking to grownups like they are kids.  There is a distancing there and I swear it can't just be me.  They are deliberately writing her like this.  She has to prove something to herself, and while I applauded her actions in the fights at Terminus and Alexandria, there is something else at work in her motivations.  She is equal parts nihilistic and self protective.  I don't like her as a person but I really like seeing her pathology play out.  Morgan is also tired of being the victim.  This new philosophy, however, smacks of power tripping overcompensating to me.  It's like he is trying to FORCE the world to be what it is not because he can't handle how it really is.  Yes, he'll dispatch zombies but he won't kill because he wants humans to be "better than that".  He has an affectation of a blind man because looking at something squarely almost always encourages an unpleasant emotion.  He's less interesting to me than Carol - but mostly because I am tired of the WD black guy trope.  Still I want to see how they both fare and I found the idea of them becoming whole in each other very intriguing.  Game knows game.

 

As for Rick, Rick to me is the best example of apocalypse evolution.  People are quick to criticize him for his supposedly dumb ideas and decisions.  I have.  I'm more a Shane in my thinking and his hemming and hawing in the early seasons made me want to punch the tv.  Now I have the utmost respect for Rick.  Not because I think he is right all the time or because he has grown to be so ruthless, but because everything he's done he's done for the welfare of others.  Even when he is not palatable to the people, everything he does is for the people - including wanting to "save" the Alexandrians.  Unlike Morgan and Carol, who have to prove something to themselves, Rick constantly, time after time, proves something to everybody else.  He takes responsibility for all of those lives and shoulders the responsibility for all of those deaths.  He has not lost his morality even as he becomes harder and his teeth sharper.  He is not an indiscrimate killer or a victimizer or a victim.   He was right to kick Carol out and he was right to let her back in.  He sees clearly on instinct even if things get lost in translation sometimes. I get what Michonne sees in him (had to slip that in!).  I think Rick is a fantastic character and the two above don't hold a candle to him, right now, IMO.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Timetoread

[Omar G.]

Finally got to watch and finished doing catchup here.

Carl - Dude you can do better than Enid the Dogface Girl. Let Ron have her. Don't like either one of those angsty teens.

 

 

Unnecessary insult about a teenager aside, where is Carl supposed to find all these girls his age you're describing that he could do better with? This isn't Degrassi.

[Bruinsfan]

Hell, I say he should wait a few years until he's grown and start courting Sascha.

[kj4ever]

I keep forgetting to add....Non black and white new Judith looks more like old Judith than black and white new Judith.

[peach]

I disagree that Carol isn't motivated by protection of others.  When she was banished, she was solemnly setting about survival, but the second she saw a pillar of smoke coming from the prison, she couldn't get there fast enough.  She immediately purposed herself with protecting Lizzie, Mika, and Judith.  They went the Terminus route in order to hopefully find the others and bring Judith back to her family.  She attacked Terminus to save the others.  Perhaps she also had something to prove to herself, or she wanted to atone for what she did at the prison, but I believe she altruistically was motivated to save her innocent group from people like Martin.  There was no way she was going to let those cretins kill the chick with the sword and the kid with the hat.

Rick and Tyrese made their peace and wanted to keep her with them, but she was going to leave again on her own when she and Daryl saw the Grady Hospital car.  Daryl sort of forcing her demand he save Noah was the beginning of her way back to ANY kind of normalcy.  The episode Consumed revealed her mindset that she felt like her "self" had been burned away, and she doesn't know who she is right now.

In Alexandria, I think she's had the same one track as Rick.  Nothing anyone says or does matters because ASZ is a sitting duck and catastrophe is probably around the corner.  I think, like Rick, if Alexandria was secured properly, she'd have other things to think about.  Maybe she can't be integrated anymore, maybe she can.  But without security it doesn't matter.  I think some of the tears she shed at the end of the Wolf battle were for the fact that things could not be the way the ASZers wanted them to be.  She still grieves normal life, too.  She just can't afford to think about it.

 

Also, as far as some people's horror over how she spoke to Sam, I think that's a 21st century first world viewpoint. It made me think of being on wagon train heading west (westerns again), when people died of disease or got killed in attacks, and you had to bury them in the road and keep going.  Settlers were tough, not sentimental.  What are they now, but settlers again?

[morgankobi]

They were like grossed out that Carol was going to be using it.  Seriously did these people ever think of the future?  Going on runs is only going to feed them for so long, and a lot of stuff has got to be just nasty now.  They have all that time that they weren't devoting to surviving/fighting and didn't even plant food?  WTH were they doing all that time besides book club?

 

So what ever happened to the apple orchard they used to make all that applesauce that Aaron had some of when he approached CDB?

 

 

Re: No chickens is ASZ

 

Please allow me to introduce you to Father Gabriel. 

 

That one was right over the plate and you hit it out of the park.

[peach]

My husband's grandmother was a tough old cookie that had to take care of all her younger siblings, including a baby, and help run a farm when she was 13 years old, and her parents died.  She and her older sister became the parents of their family.  She would have said exactly the same thing to Sam that Carol did.

[leto]

I disagree that Carol isn't motivated by protection of others.  When she was banished, she was solemnly setting about survival, but the second she saw a pillar of smoke coming from the prison, she couldn't get there fast enough.  She immediately purposed herself with protecting Lizzie, Mika, and Judith.  They went the Terminus route in order to hopefully find the others and bring Judith back to her family.  She attacked Terminus to save the others.  Perhaps she also had something to prove to herself, or she wanted to atone for what she did at the prison, but I believe she altruistically was motivated to save her innocent group from people like Martin.  There was no way she was going to let those cretins kill the chick with the sword and the kid with the hat.

Rick and Tyrese made their peace and wanted to keep her with them, but she was going to leave again on her own when she and Daryl saw the Grady Hospital car.  Daryl sort of forcing her demand he save Noah was the beginning of her way back to ANY kind of normalcy.  The episode Consumed revealed her mindset that she felt like her "self" had been burned away, and she doesn't know who she is right now.

In Alexandria, I think she's had the same one track as Rick.  Nothing anyone says or does matters because ASZ is a sitting duck and catastrophe is probably around the corner.  I think, like Rick, if Alexandria was secured properly, she'd have other things to think about.  Maybe she can't be integrated anymore, maybe she can.  But without security it doesn't matter.  I think some of the tears she shed at the end of the Wolf battle were for the fact that things could not be the way the ASZers wanted them to be.  She still grieves normal life, too.  She just can't afford to think about it.

 

Also, as far as some people's horror over how she spoke to Sam, I think that's a 21st century first world viewpoint. It made me think of being on wagon train heading west (westerns again), when people died of disease or got killed in attacks, and you had to bury them in the road and keep going.  Settlers were tough, not sentimental.  What are they now, but settlers again?

 

Word. The whole point of Carol's actions last episode was about protecting others. She could have stayed in the house with Carl and chilled if it was only about self preservation. Just like with Terminus, she was at risk of death the entire time she was attacking the Wolves.

[raven]

Interesting discussion here.

 

I'm biased because I love Morgan; Lennie James gets a lot of credit for that.  I was frustrated with some of his behavior but I wouldn't call him a pacifist - he's willing to fight and kill (and did, that last guy at the end I believe) but he doesn't want to. I think it's totally justifiable to kill someone who is trying to kill you; I'd like to applaud Morgan's stance but we all know it's not going to end well on this show (not a spoiler, just the history of the show says that).

 

I think I'm a party of one in that I don't blame people for the actions of others.  I wouldn't hold Morgan responsible if any of the Ws return to kill, unless Morgan doesn't identify them as a threat to those who aren't aware of them (for example, not telling Rick, etc about the attack, which would be impossible).  I didn't blame Rick when what's-his-name came back to the prison and caused the zombie stampede that resulted in Lori's and T-Dog's deaths either.  I would probably only hold someone reponsible if you have the option to defend someone and choose not to, again, depending on circumstances. 

 

We don't know what kind of man Morgan was before the ZA.  If he was a "kill and don't ask questions" type then Rick would be dead.  Maybe he did a lot of his own killing and made a vow to himself not to unless he felt it was necessary; not an easy stance to take in the world.  Maybe he was crazy for a long time and held onto the memory of the good man Rick that he knew, who found his family against all odds.   He did save lives by driving away the Ws at Alexandria. 

 

My kind of worry is that there's not much to say on the show - we went through this with Rick already.  Will Morgan's story be similar?  Is there a different perspective to take, from the show's viewpoint? TWD has been pretty clear that taking the non-lethal route is always wrong.  I just don't know if there's something new to tell, but I like Morgan and am willing to wait and see.

 

It's fun to watch Carol taking out the Ws, but I am a bit confused about her.  I've wondered if there's disconnect with Melissa McBride and the writing for Carol.  Does she honestly care about people?  That core of who she used to be is gone.  We saw her being warm with Sophia way back when and we saw a harder type of affection with Mika & Lizzie so we know it was there.  Is she incapable of that now?  If so, why bother to protect these people at all; if she's not going to suffer fools and is keeping her own counsel on things.  Why stay around?  There are no more gray areas with Carol.  Her being "old time settler" with Jessie's son is really not necessary; she just didn't want to hear it from him.  She's not trying to teach, she's just being sharp.  At least with Mika, Lizzie and the kids at the prison she was trying to teach.  Sometimes it seems as if MM wants her to be that slightly warmer character, yet tough as nails, then we get what seem to me like really OOC moments for her.   To be clear, there's nothing wrong with her being a meaner type, personally I feel like MM's performance and the writing have her all over the place sometimes.

 

I really liked Carl in this one (and I think the long hair is cute on him!)  He's recovered his empathy but still gets it done.  I think his pausing after he shot the guy in the leg was a deliberate call back to when he "shot first, questions later" the guy at the prison.  This time of course it's show that hesitating is wrong, wrong, wrong, but I'm glad he took him out.  I like that he's willing to work with Fr Gabriel; I like unusual pairings and there could be some good scenes there.

 

 

He sees clearly on instinct even if things get lost in translation sometimes. I get what Michonne sees in him (had to slip that in!).  I think Rick is a fantastic character and the two above don't hold a candle to him, right now, IMO.

I don't agree with your whole post Timetoread; lots of interesting points and I liked your take on Rick (and Michonne, hee, I've always seen it with them). 

 

I think the way that Rick has changed is that he will work to save those who try to help themselves, as long as they are able.  He is fiercely loyal to his group.  When they make it back to Alexandria, I wonder if a road trip is in order to bring some vengeance back to the Ws.

 

Overall, tense, fun episode.  Still enjoy the odd couple of Tara/Eugene, Maggie's quiet, practical leadership, Rosita and Aaron getting shit done.  I love our main players but with so many it's tough to get everyone in, so I appreciated seeing everyone else, even briefly.

 

ETA: Liked the cold open, but the reason Enid's parents died seemed kind of dumb?  Weren't they in the car?  I watched that scene twice and we don't see them...were they under the hood?  It was weird to me.

 

Oh and the Ws - some can take a licking and keep on ticking LOL.  Some of them got shot 3 times and kept running.

Edited October 21, 2015 by raven

[SoSueMe]

Enid was introduced in Season 5, Episode 12. She had been at Alexandria for about eight months (without speaking for the first three weeks) and hung out with Jess's son Ron and Nicholas's son Mikey. I have no idea with whom she lives.

Carl followed Enid when she went over the wall, and they hid from walkers inside a hollow tree. Last episode, Ron saw Enid & Carl holding hands on a roof.

Dickolas Nicholas???? I missed that entirely. I wouldn't have pegged him as a dad.

[Bruinsfan]

I assume Pete rounded up all the apples in the community's orchards to make into hard cider.

[SoSueMe]

It is my belief that the Wolves are the group that took over Terminus, that the Termites became monsters to overcome.  That babbling was like the dude that they let out the crate.  I could ALMOST understand the Termites feeling that ALL or most humans were like this and they can either show themselves worthy of joining the group or they can be food.  Honestly, for a whole season buildup the Terminus story ended too quickly.

The only thing is, wasn't Terminus in GA? And Alexandria is in VA? Unless they were stalking CDB up the coast...

[Bec]

Morgan is still badass to me. Like people have been saying upthread, experience informs what characters do. Letting living people live hadn’t had dire consequences for Morgan yet. In his experience, giving people a chance hadn’t come back to bite him in the ass (he gave Rick a chance in the first episode and that turned out pretty good). But notice he doesn’t let zombies go anymore when he has the opportunity to kill them, because not killing zombies had turned out very badly for him.

 

I like peach’s theory that someone helped him regain his sanity and that’s why he’s so bent on helping others regain their sanity (and I agree that the wolves might not have had any sanity in the first place).

 

Now that Morgan has seen the guy he let live earlier come back to kill people, maybe it already caused a change to the philosophy he lives by. I mean, he did kill that wolf in the end, didn’t he? It wasn’t very clear, but it looks like he did.

 

I really don’t see hair-trigger kill-em-all I-only-look-out-for-me-and-mine attitudes as more heroic. I don’t think a willingness to give people a chance is weak. In real life it’s the former type of people who scare too easily and go around killing people who “looked scary”. The latter type of people have the biggest hearts and are the best.

 

Granted, in the context of a wolf attack in a zombie apocalypse, “kill em all” suddenly makes a lot more sense. But it’s not like Morgan is watching all this on TV. He didn’t see what happened to Noah’s hometown. He didn’t see that scene with the wolf charging in chopping up that poor lady who was just minding her own business. Everyone was in battle mode by the time he got to the scene. He doesn’t know how this started. He has a lot less information than we do. But he did figure it out before the end of the episode. I think.

 

For what it’s worth, I heard “chains-maker”. But if there is a cheese-maker alive in the ZA, I am definitely making friends with the gruyere (and now I will also show myself out. Heehee).

[The Mighty Peanut]

I'm biased because I love Morgan; Lennie James gets a lot of credit for that. I was frustrated with some of his behavior but I wouldn't call him a pacifist - he's willing to fight and kill (and did, that last guy at the end I believe) but he doesn't want to. I think it's totally justifiable to kill someone who is trying to kill you; I'd like to applaud Morgan's stance but we all know it's not going to end well on this show (not a spoiler, just the history of the show says that).

Agree, and would add that it is easier not to kill people based on personal morals when he is working alone and would be the only one to suffer the consequences of his actions. If the killer goes on to kill again it's not like Morgan would get a press release, so he can live with a false contentment. I'm also convinced--not spoiled--that a major character death will be the direct result of the wolf who escaped with that gun. I think it's this season's red handled machete of foreshadowing. I'm using FPP because I don't care if maybe writing "Father PeePants dies" is a jinx like I would with other, better people. Anyway, saying Morgan toilet trains FPP and they become friends, and then Father PeePants is killed by the unfair wolf, Morgan will have to face the realities about being a post-apocalyptic Zen master in a group setting. He will probably at least temporarily go all froot loops again.

[Yolapukka]

 

Liked the cold open, but the reason Enid's parents died seemed kind of dumb?  Weren't they in the car?  I watched that scene twice and we don't see them...were they under the hood?  It was weird to me.

 

 

They were on the other side of the car from where Enid was standing in the open door, I think they were outside of it.   I saw her mother, I'm not sure if her father was out of the frame entirely or I just failed to notice him. I could see her mother through the glass, but the angle and light made it look like she was not inside. Someone had a theory that "Just Survive Somehow" indicated that Enid locked the doors when the Walkers attacked. It does make sense to me that she might have done so, not necessarily to abandon her parents but certainly once it was clear they were doomed and she needed to ensure her own safety.

Edited October 21, 2015 by yuggapukka

[NurseGiGi]

It is my belief that the Wolves are the group that took over Terminus, that the Termites became monsters to overcome.  That babbling was like the dude that they let out the crate.  I could ALMOST understand the Termites feeling that ALL or most humans were like this and they can either show themselves worthy of joining the group or they can be food.  Honestly, for a whole season buildup the Terminus story ended too quickly.

 

 

 

 

Here's my take on both Morgan AND Carol.  Let me start by saying that I am not, and have never been, a big fan of either one.  Morgan hasn't been on enough for me to bond with him and Carol I flat out dislike, and have since the very beginning.  That said both have compelling elements in their story that speaks to humanity as a whole.

 

Morgan did NOT survive in the same world as Rick.  Morgan is not Rick by any stretch.  Morgan stayed alive, but he was unable to cope - staying in the same place with his son, mourning the walker that used to be his wife.  Listening everyday for Rick.  He is a man whose tendency was to plant in one place.  Then he lost his son and lost his mind too.  He stayed in the same place but became a warrior of nothing.  Killing what is already dead and clearing out an empty town.  I don't know what happened after Clear, and I would love to hear what happened, to make him finally move.  He's grown strong physically but I don't think his mind has yet.

 

Then we have Carol.  From a victim to an agressor.  It's been an interesting ride for Carol but she's no hero and she is also not Rick.  I know the internet is awash in adoration for the new Mary Sue, but I don't trust Carol one bit.  Not even a little.  I honestly wonder where this is going because while I am alone in my feelings for her, I feel like the writing for her is on par with them.

 

So here's how they are both opposite sides of the same coin. Their every action is for self.  It is about how they define themselves, how they feel about themselves.  Who they used to be, who they could be, who they should be.  Carol right now has one goal - to no longer be a victim.  But in doing so she becomes a psychological victimizer, talking to kids like they are grownups and talking to grownups like they are kids.  There is a distancing there and I swear it can't just be me.  They are deliberately writing her like this.  She has to prove something to herself, and while I applauded her actions in the fights at Terminus and Alexandria, there is something else at work in her motivations.  She is equal parts nihilistic and self protective.  I don't like her as a person but I really like seeing her pathology play out.  Morgan is also tired of being the victim.  This new philosophy, however, smacks of power tripping overcompensating to me.  It's like he is trying to FORCE the world to be what it is not because he can't handle how it really is.  Yes, he'll dispatch zombies but he won't kill because he wants humans to be "better than that".  He has an affectation of a blind man because looking at something squarely almost always encourages an unpleasant emotion.  He's less interesting to me than Carol - but mostly because I am tired of the WD black guy trope.  Still I want to see how they both fare and I found the idea of them becoming whole in each other very intriguing.  Game knows game.

 

As for Rick, Rick to me is the best example of apocalypse evolution.  People are quick to criticize him for his supposedly dumb ideas and decisions.  I have.  I'm more a Shane in my thinking and his hemming and hawing in the early seasons made me want to punch the tv.  Now I have the utmost respect for Rick.  Not because I think he is right all the time or because he has grown to be so ruthless, but because everything he's done he's done for the welfare of others.  Even when he is not palatable to the people, everything he does is for the people - including wanting to "save" the Alexandrians.  Unlike Morgan and Carol, who have to prove something to themselves, Rick constantly, time after time, proves something to everybody else.  He takes responsibility for all of those lives and shoulders the responsibility for all of those deaths.  He has not lost his morality even as he becomes harder and his teeth sharper.  He is not an indiscrimate killer or a victimizer or a victim.   He was right to kick Carol out and he was right to let her back in.  He sees clearly on instinct even if things get lost in translation sometimes. I get what Michonne sees in him (had to slip that in!).  I think Rick is a fantastic character and the two above don't hold a candle to him, right now, IMO.

I love this post and while I disagree with some of it I think you make some excellent points. You know, when people ask me why I watch a show about zombies I try to explain to them that's it's not the zombies that interest me, it's the people.  And your post is a perfect example of why it's the people.

 

Carol was outstanding, I thought.  And writers, please, please don't ruin Morgan for me.  Or at least redeem him because letting those people go after seeing them hack! living people into bits is pretty unforgivable.

[NurseGiGi]

Agree, and would add that it is easier not to kill people based on personal morals when he is working alone and would be the only one to suffer the consequences of his actions. If the killer goes on to kill again it's not like Morgan would get a press release, so he can live with a false contentment. I'm also convinced--not spoiled--that a major character death will be the direct result of the wolf who escaped with that gun. I think it's this season's red handled machete of foreshadowing. I'm using FPP because I don't care if maybe writing "Father PeePants dies" is a jinx like I would with other, better people. Anyway, saying Morgan toilet trains FPP and they become friends, and then Father PeePants is killed by the unfair wolf, Morgan will have to face the realities about being a post-apocalyptic Zen master in a group setting. He will probably at least temporarily go all froot loops again.

Very interesting.  But you have to promise the unfair wolf will target FPP!

[Anela]

 

 

Oh and FYI about my AARP comment - I'm super close to being in that club myself so it was meant tongue-in-cheek.

I know. That's why I added a wink to my response. :) 

[Dodginblue]

Interesting discussion here.

 

 

It's fun to watch Carol taking out the Ws, but I am a bit confused about her.  I've wondered if there's disconnect with Melissa McBride and the writing for Carol.  Does she honestly care about people?  That core of who she used to be is gone.  We saw her being warm with Sophia way back when and we saw a harder type of affection with Mika & Lizzie so we know it was there.  Is she incapable of that now?  If so, why bother to protect these people at all; if she's not going to suffer fools and is keeping her own counsel on things.  Why stay around?  There are no more gray areas with Carol.  Her being "old time settler" with Jessie's son is really not necessary; she just didn't want to hear it from him.  She's not trying to teach, she's just being sharp.  At least with Mika, Lizzie and the kids at the prison she was trying to teach.  Sometimes it seems as if MM wants her to be that slightly warmer character, yet tough as nails, then we get what seem to me like really OOC moments for her.   To be clear, there's nothing wrong with her being a meaner type, personally I feel like MM's performance and the writing have her all over the place sometimes.

 

I think Carol cares a lot about the people around her, especially the core group.   I don't think she put herself in harm's way this last episode because she was looking for the adrenaline rush.

 

I don't think of Carol as some superwoman bad ass.  I see her more like the frontier women of old, the ones who moved cross country with their husbands or families and ended up in the middle of nowhere trying to farm or ranch with genteel civilization far behind them.  To survive, they had to be realists, they had to sacrifice conventional notions of what life was supposed to be like and learn how to do the necessary. 

[Nashville]

I'm willing to bet Carol can make pasta using applesauce and cream of celery soup.  Delicious with Cola canned ham!

 

Or she just uses flour and oil, with a bit of water.  After all, egg is essentially just a mix of water, fat and protein. 

 

So is Eugene, for that matter.

 

Very interesting.  But you have to promise the unfair wolf will target FPP!

 

And that FPP WILL DIE IN THE PROCESS.

[morgankobi]

 

And that FPP WILL DIE IN THE PROCESS.

 

"Did you ever know that you're my hero?"

Edited October 21, 2015 by morgankobi

[CletusMusashi]

About the way Carol spoke to Sam: it's actually very possible that she was simply re-establishing normal boundaries, now that his home life was no longer dangerous. Remember, he doesn't need a surrogate mother. He already has an actual real-life mother, right next door, living in the exact same house that he does. If at all possible, healing from Peter's porchdickmanship should be a family process, not just each individual member of the household meandering off in a different direction.

Is it possible that she was also telling herself:  "About time I get to stop making cookies for the little shit?" Sure.

But as a mother, from a family with an abusive father, there is no way in hell she wouldn't feel like she was intruding on Jessie's business by luring the only halfway tolerable kid in the family away with cookies.

If Jessie turns into a crackhead next week, I'm sure Carol will have Sam's back again.

[NorthstarATL]

Musing about why Morgan and/or Carol are the way they are, I was thinking that Michonne and Morgan are really the only two we're aware of who have survived for any length of time on their own. They each chose different means of making do, and they also had very different weapons, with Morgan sticking (pun intended) to something with which to protect himself which would not be lethal to the living, but would be capable of ending a walker, and Michonne choosing something a tad more final. It goes back to a point I made earlier, which has to do with both gender and size. Michonne (and Carol) really don't have the same  luxury of choosing to let live that Morgan has. True, he can always be ambushed by someone whom he has not killed, but with Michonne (or Carol) they really have to enter a conflict with the knowledge that it is either them or the other person who is going to walk away. Morgan has assimilated into "civilization" much quicker than Michonne did, but she lost her edge to an extent when she let others (beginning with Andrea) become part of her survival journey. (Heck, she went from wanting smartly to get to an island when in Woodbury to advocating a move toward D.C.!) Hopefully we'll see what turned Morgan from paranoid survivalist to questing Carradine over the course of the season.

  Seeing Carol do what she feels she has to, especially considering her background of abuse, and even after that, of being somewhat dead weight back on the farm, is a fascinating look at what surviving in the ZA might entail. Carol fits into the world of Alexandria, but it is not who she is any longer, and many more people are alive because of that than would have been otherwise.

[nodorothyparker]

About the way Carol spoke to Sam: it's actually very possible that she was simply re-establishing normal boundaries, now that his home life was no longer dangerous.

 

I don't doubt that this is part of it.  I would also imagine she simply wants no part of having another child dependent on her in any way after losing three that were in a nearly two-year period.  It seems obvious she's trying to keep Sam at arm's length despite his apparently being drawn to her.

 

She seems okay with Carl, who's more self sufficient than many of the adult ASZers at this point, but assuming they all live long enough it will be interesting to see what kind of relationship she has with Judith as she gets older.  That is if we're not eventually on season 17 of the Walking Dead: Two Weeks Later with yet another set of similarly aged babies playing Judith.

[GodsBeloved]

Don't you need eggs to make fresh pasta? I haven't seen any chickens in ASZ.

 

 

Please allow me to introduce you to Father Gabriel. 

Please introduce Eugene as well especially after this episode. Gabriel is now trying, he wants to learn how to fight and he  wasn't cowering when the Wolves came in. Eugene on the other hand. 

[GodsBeloved]

Interesting discussion here.

 

I'm biased because I love Morgan; Lennie James gets a lot of credit for that.  I was frustrated with some of his behavior but I wouldn't call him a pacifist - he's willing to fight and kill (and did, that last guy at the end I believe) but he doesn't want to. I think it's totally justifiable to kill someone who is trying to kill you; I'd like to applaud Morgan's stance but we all know it's not going to end well on this show (not a spoiler, just the history of the show says that).

 

I think I'm a party of one in that I don't blame people for the actions of others.  I wouldn't hold Morgan responsible if any of the Ws return to kill, unless Morgan doesn't identify them as a threat to those who aren't aware of them (for example, not telling Rick, etc about the attack, which would be impossible).  I didn't blame Rick when what's-his-name came back to the prison and caused the zombie stampede that resulted in Lori's and T-Dog's deaths either.  I would probably only hold someone reponsible if you have the option to defend someone and choose not to, again, depending on circumstances. 

 

We don't know what kind of man Morgan was before the ZA.  If he was a "kill and don't ask questions" type then Rick would be dead.  Maybe he did a lot of his own killing and made a vow to himself not to unless he felt it was necessary; not an easy stance to take in the world.  Maybe he was crazy for a long time and held onto the memory of the good man Rick that he knew, who found his family against all odds.   He did save lives by driving away the Ws at Alexandria. 

 

My kind of worry is that there's not much to say on the show - we went through this with Rick already.  Will Morgan's story be similar?  Is there a different perspective to take, from the show's viewpoint? TWD has been pretty clear that taking the non-lethal route is always wrong.  I just don't know if there's something new to tell, but I like Morgan and am willing to wait and see.

 

It's fun to watch Carol taking out the Ws, but I am a bit confused about her.  I've wondered if there's disconnect with Melissa McBride and the writing for Carol.  Does she honestly care about people?  That core of who she used to be is gone.  We saw her being warm with Sophia way back when and we saw a harder type of affection with Mika & Lizzie so we know it was there.  Is she incapable of that now?  If so, why bother to protect these people at all; if she's not going to suffer fools and is keeping her own counsel on things.  Why stay around?  

I'm with you on Morgan and not blaming a person for the actions of others.

 

Regarding why Carol would stay around, I don't buy CDB wanting to save the ASZers is all that altruistic. When they first arrived they were planning to take over if the ASZers didn't get in line instead of just leaving. They were absolutely right about the ASZers needing to learn what it was like out there and needing to learn more survival skills but CDB's desire to teach them wasn't just for their own good. CDB wanted the benefits of what the ASZers had established.

Edited October 21, 2015 by GodsBeloved

[molshoop]

 

There is going to be a serious need for protein for these people. 

 

        If they plant soybeans, spinach and blueberry bushes they'll be fine.

[Haleth]

That's a big "if."  So far they've planted nothing, except maybe petunias.

[JackONeill]

Now that the Wolves have run their spree through Alexandria and made a mess of things, what with blood here and there, and broken windows, and giant gashes in walls from axes, that the Home and Garden channel comes in and does a makeover on one of the houses. And, hey, maybe they can finish the wall, and put the beams in the right places.

[nodorothyparker]

Regarding why Carol would stay around, I don't buy CBC wanting to save the ASZers is all that altruistic. When they first arrived they were planning to take over if the ASZers didn't get in line instead of just leaving. They were absolutely right about the ASZers needing to learn what it was like out there and needing to learn more survival skills but CBC's desire to teach them wasn't just for their own good. CBC wanted the benefits of what the ASZers had established.

 

I don't see it as pure altruism either and I don't know that it's ever really been painted as such, Rick's insistence that they were "lucky" to have CBD there aside.  At the point that our gang showed up at Alexandria, several of them acknowledged they were in real danger of turning feral if they stayed out on the road with no security or structure of society much longer.  It's more of a mutually beneficial relationship if they can all manage to live together.  CBD benefits from having a safe place to sleep and running water and some semblance of an organized society.  The ASZers benefit from having someone there to protect them and teach them to protect themselves if, say, ax-wielding maniacs happen to break in or a giant herd of walkers is somehow set loose near the town.

[ghoulina]

Unnecessary insult about a teenager aside, where is Carl supposed to find all these girls his age you're describing that he could do better with? This isn't Degrassi.

 

Thank God for that. 

 

And yes, pickings are slim these days. Enid annoys at times, but she has proven that she is tough and can survive. I think she would be a good match for Carl. 

 

My husband's grandmother was a tough old cookie that had to take care of all her younger siblings, including a baby, and help run a farm when she was 13 years old, and her parents died.  She and her older sister became the parents of their family.  She would have said exactly the same thing to Sam that Carol did.

 

I will admit, I was initially appalled at the way Carol spoke to Sam last season. But then after thinking about it for a few days, I got over it. It is easy to view things on the show with our intact world mindset. People have to grow up quicker in the ZA. They just do. I really believe that Carol is harsh like that (as she also was with Lizzie and Mika) because she cares. If she didn't, she'd let you keep frolicking along in your naivety until you got chomped to death....or worse. She may be a bit callous, but she wants people to face the reality of the world. She wants them to get it, before it gets them. Sam obviously recognizes that Carol is a loving woman underneath it all, because he keeps coming back to her. 

 

 

It's fun to watch Carol taking out the Ws, but I am a bit confused about her.  I've wondered if there's disconnect with Melissa McBride and the writing for Carol.  Does she honestly care about people?  That core of who she used to be is gone.  We saw her being warm with Sophia way back when and we saw a harder type of affection with Mika & Lizzie so we know it was there.  Is she incapable of that now?

 

I don't think the core of who she is is gone. I think Carol still cares very much for people, and her love of the group if the major motivating factor behind her actions. But she has literally lost every child she has taken care of in the ZA, save Judith. That has hardened her. I think she tries detach herself, so she won't get hurt again. But I think this is where Morgan was right - she is still in there, and she doesn't necessarily LIKE this harder side she's had to embrace. When she held the other kitchen lady in her arms and had to put her down, there was pain all over her face. I don't think Carol has totally lost who she is, but I do think she needs to find more of a balance. 

 

That's a big "if."  So far they've planted nothing, except maybe petunias.

 

And their own heads in the sand. 

[lulee]

I don't remember the exact conversation between Deanna and Maggie about the seed packets. Was it stated or implied that the Alexandrites hadn't planted at all? Because it would just be ridiculous if they weren't at least doing container gardening, and that would make them too dumb to deserve hot showers and subpar pasta.

Edited October 21, 2015 by lulee

[nodorothyparker]

I still think a lot of the Morgan and Carol juxtaposition this episode is more about each of them starting off at an extreme and needing to pull each other back more toward the center or place of balance than who's right or who's a "badass."  (God, I've come to loathe that word in this fandom.)

 

If her core was completely gone and she truly didn't care, she could have headed in the opposite direction after Rick exiled her and never looked back.  She was free.  She never had to go toward Terminus at all or reunite with the group afterward or stay with them as things steadily got worse.  As much as the Daryl gets the feels over Beth's death scenes annoyed me last season because he's been circling that drain in the back half of every season since the second one, I thought it was pretty telling when she advised him to go ahead and feel what he needed to feel but "You know I can't."  Yet here she was shedding tears over the women from the pantry and that once again it had all ended in bloodshed.