S17.E05: Community Policing

[WendyCR72]

An unarmed black man is shot by three police officers who claim they were following proper procedure while pursuing a rape suspect. As racial tensions mount throughout the city, Barba indicts the three cops.

[ratherbereading]

Jesus Olivia, way to defend the Blue Line. This is exactly what is wrong with the entire police system today. A few bad cops, and good cops say and do nothing. Even in the face of evidence that clearly shows they are wrong.

 

And damn, that Grand Jury is stone cold, straight up badass. I do thnk the manslaughter charges are reaching, but good on them for taking in seriously.

[Spartan Girl]

Declan is the daddy!! Any excuse to get him on the show is fine.

All I can say about the episode is that it just keeps going round and round...

And to top it off, the real rapist is still at large at the end. So it was all for nothing. Sometimes I hate this show.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Spartan Girl

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Barba snatched Olivia's edges, he wasn't playing no games.

Declan is the daddy, I approve.

[Primetimer]

SVU's take on Ferguson, Eric Garner, and other excessive-force cases pits Liv and Barba against each other; Li'l Rollins's dad shows up.

Read the story

[RafaelBarbas]

I really think they’re about to make Barba an alcoholic. :( Am I alone?

[FormerMod-a1]

I really think they’re about to make Barba an alcoholic. :( Am I alone?

Or that he's headed for a heart attack - alcohol, stress, etc.

[wknt3]

The Good:

A real effort to create a complex situation with lots of nuance.

Well acted for the most part. Especially Isiah Whitlock and the parents.

Donal Logue! And they aren't going to draw out the baby daddy mystery!

Fin made the most out of too little screen time. "Stop and shut up" should be adopted as policy immediately.

The Bad:

Barba's zealousness felt off. There just wasn't enough, especially at the beginning for him to be grilling Liv like that.

Rollins baby is becoming the new Noah. In that it has a couple scenes every episode and bores me immensely.

Overall it was another solid effort. I'm looking forward to the new guy and a more traditional case though.

Edited October 15, 2015 by wknt3

[ketchuplover]

I'm still waiting for Law & Order:SUV

[Gigi43]

I'm not trying to diminish the fact that police shootings are a real issue, but they've covered the topic in recent seasons and it just really bugged me that on SVU, the actual rape case was basically dropped. Also I always get bothered when it seems like they want to throw as many "ripped from the headlines" stuff as possible in one episode -it feels like overload- so when they did a take on Brian Moore at the very end (a young cop shot/killed in Queens, from Nassau), I had a "yeah, figures they jammed it in at the end", and I actually know someone who went to HS with the real person. When they want to add so much something gets slighted and seems sloppy and predictable if you know headlines associated with the topic.

Fin's " Stop and shut up", was my second favorite thing said. My favorite was Amanda confirming Declan is the dad, because YAY! With Gotham's ratings what they are, good for Donal too maybe having a back up.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Gigi43

[mommalib]

Two things

1. I wanted to smack Olivia during this episode.

2. Fin needs more air time

[Joimiaroxeu]

With Gotham's ratings what they are, good for Donal too maybe having a back up

They must really like him to keep a spot on reserve for him like that. I'm okay with it I guess but I really wanted it to be Amaro. Whatever, it's funny to me how nonchalant everybody is about it. "Rollins is pregnant? Finally. The way she rolls we're surprised she doesn't have a baby daddy in every borough already."

Edited October 15, 2015 by Joimiaroxeu

[Gigi43]

Did Danny Pino want to leave or was he let go? If he were into making appearances there maybe would have been a better chance of him being the father. Rollins/Amaro had that on and off relationship on screen more than anyone and Amaro was a regular for several seasons like she is, if Pino isn't returning at all that would surely annoy Amaro fans to not get "his" part of the story. Plus that would put him at 3 kids with 3 women.

I think Declan's a great choice.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Gigi43

[Mars477]

I haven't watched this show in at least 2 seasons.  That said, what in gods name is up with this Rollins pregnancy thing?  Is this due to Kelli Giddish being pregnant, or is it patented SVU Female Character Bullshit?

Edited October 15, 2015 by Mars477

[Gigi43]

I haven't watched this show in at least 2 seasons. That said, what in gods name is up with this Rollins pregnancy thing? Is this due to Kelli Giddish being pregnant, or is it patented SVU Female Character Bullshit?

Kelli's really pregnant. Actually pretty recently (last week or two weeks ago) she gave birth.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Gigi43

[Lillybee]

I am getting tired of whenever an actress gets pregnant, it is written into the show. I wish that they would go back to the days that pregnancies were hidden by big purses or behind large plants.

[MorbidPet]

Not a bad episode but I got to be honest here, I was only waiting for the Kelli/Donal scene. The photos of them had leaked the other week so I was just eager to see that scene. It didn't play out as I would've liked it though. I don't mind him as a dad, would've prefered Nick but I get why he wasn't a good choice with DP gone & Nick already having 2 baby mommas, but I would've liked it to have been messier. To me Patton comes in to mind and Murphy knew her 'blindspot for men in power' so he should've never have gone there (not taking blame off her though, not for a second did I think she was forced in to it) but here Murphy was all levelheaded and up for taking responsibility, and AR seeming all okay with it, not at all what I had pictured. So a bit disappointed that this doesn't look as they will deal with her rape after all :(

 

I am getting tired of whenever an actress gets pregnant, it is written into the show. I wish that they would go back to the days that pregnancies were hidden by big purses or behind large plants.

They actually made kind of a big deal about writing this pregnancy in. Apparently it has never happened in the L&O universe (I read the article kinda sloppy though so I could be wrong, and I've stopped listening or reading WL articles/interviews so I dunno exactly what he said on the subject)

 

Great guest stars. I love seeing Mary McCann. Tucker & Draper tag teaming, nice. Too bad Winters Jr seems to be off the force, he's a pretty solid actor. 

 

I think they used Benson and Barba well in this episode, bringing up two important sides/issues. I'm sure we have some of these issues in my country as well but we do have gun control so cops rarely has to use extensive force like this in the line of duty. Last week though we had an attack at a refugee camp and we have a party in our goverment now that has an obvious racist agenda. It makes me heartbroken. 

 

The Bad:
Rollins baby is becoming the new Noah. In that it has a couple scenes every episode and bores me immensely.

I honestly don't think you have to worry about her/it. They milked the 'who's the daddy' a bit but could've actually been even more excessive had they wanted to. The Benoah drama in S16 surely is linked to the fact WL fangirls hard on MH, and the so-called diehards. Some diehards even wish this baby dead which made me fear WL would go there but it looks like it will at least come out breathing (I did read that one article where WL said AR has to plan for a bigger apartment and stuff) but after that I don't hold much hope (not that I wish for more baby drama on SVU either) that we will see much of this baby. I don't hold it as impossible they will keep bringing up stuff like how hard it is to be a working mother but I do hold it as impossible that we will see Rollins' baby fighting pimp daddys, shooting at playgrounds, measels and whatever else they threw at Noah last season.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

"Rollins' baby fighting pimp daddys, shooting at playgrounds, measels"

Now I'm picturing Noah firing a semi-auto at a cartoon representation of measles and giggling at my desk.

I didn't think this episode was bad, but whoever said upthread that it feels sometimes like SVU feels obligated to rip certain capital-I Issues headlines and have a hot take on them is dead on. It's okay to be a procedural and not lecture the audience, show.

[Princess Lucky]

Huh. Not nearly as terrible as I feared. Liked the twist with the upped charges.

 

I really liked that Benson was on the "other" side of the argument, that she sided with the cops, no questions asked (almost). And when I say I liked it, I mean in a bad way; I liked that we got this 'ugly' (sort of) side of Benson. I would have hated to see Saint Benson being all "I would never do such a thing, these officers are incompetent". She stuck by her own. That's the sad truth of police brutality.

 

That said, I also liked that there was a more experienced cop who acted more conservatively, who only fired 3 shots ('only 3 shots' is still 3 too many, of course, but still). That shows that a) good cops can still kill, as Barba sassed later and b) that some cops are better than others. That, and the fact the cops were charged with different crimes, was a good way to try and undo the mentality of "all cops are the same" (whatever you might think that "same" is, bad or good).

 

Barba is totally heading for... something. Health-wise, probably. I love it. I loved seeing the pressure he was under and that's the kind of Barba story I like to watch. Snark is fun, but this is legit.

 

Always good seeing Tucker, even better to see him in polo shirts and without a jacket. Forget Barba and Dodds and whatever, Benson/Tucker is where it's at. It is settled. It was settled when she was all "sleep with a radio under your pillow?" and he was all "wanna see?" (with his eyes). Make it happen, show!

 

Declan as Amanda's babydaddy? And he wants to be there for her? "Call me and I'll be on a plane in 1 hour (and then in NYC in, like, 12 more hours because Serbia is an ocean away)"? I mean, OK.

 

Oh and he literally popped up from behind a car, all "Oh hi Amand- is that my baby?" And Dumas saw her belly and was all "Congratul- so who's the father?" Like, do none of those people have manners?

 

I LOVED seeing Scott William Winters. He's such a good actor and he still looks so handsome and his voice is just, mmmmm. I would have loved to have gotten more of him on SVU over the years, but still, this one episode was so great for him. I'm glad he got more screentime and some great moments.

 

Lastly, my boo Carisi remains fabulous and I love him.

[wknt3]

Not a bad episode but I got to be honest here, I was only waiting for the Kelli/Donal scene. The photos of them had leaked the other week so I was just eager to see that scene. It didn't play out as I would've liked it though. I don't mind him as a dad, would've prefered Nick but I get why he wasn't a good choice with DP gone & Nick already having 2 baby mommas, but I would've liked it to have been messier. To me Patton comes in to mind and Murphy knew her 'blindspot for men in power' so he should've never have gone there (not taking blame off her though, not for a second did I think she was forced in to it) but here Murphy was all levelheaded and up for taking responsibility, and AR seeming all okay with it, not at all what I had pictured. So a bit disappointed that this doesn't look as they will deal with her rape after all :(

 

They actually made kind of a big deal about writing this pregnancy in. Apparently it has never happened in the L&O universe (I read the article kinda sloppy though so I could be wrong, and I've stopped listening or reading WL articles/interviews so I dunno exactly what he said on the subject)

 

Great guest stars. I love seeing Mary McCann. Tucker & Draper tag teaming, nice. Too bad Winters Jr seems to be off the force, he's a pretty solid actor. 

 

I think they used Benson and Barba well in this episode, bringing up two important sides/issues. I'm sure we have some of these issues in my country as well but we do have gun control so cops rarely has to use extensive force like this in the line of duty. Last week though we had an attack at a refugee camp and we have a party in our goverment now that has an obvious racist agenda. It makes me heartbroken. 

 

I honestly don't think you have to worry about her/it. They milked the 'who's the daddy' a bit but could've actually been even more excessive had they wanted to. The Benoah drama in S16 surely is linked to the fact WL fangirls hard on MH, and the so-called diehards.

 

I really wasn't worried that we were going to see this plot take over the show like Noah. And I was pleasantly surprised that the "mystery" was resolved this episode. The comparison was more that it's a running plotline that I have less than zero interest in - although I am slightly more interested now that it gives us a reason to see Declan come back.

 

"Rollins' baby fighting pimp daddys, shooting at playgrounds, measels"

Now I'm picturing Noah firing a semi-auto at a cartoon representation of measles and giggling at my desk.

I didn't think this episode was bad, but whoever said upthread that it feels sometimes like SVU feels obligated to rip certain capital-I Issues headlines and have a hot take on them is dead on. It's okay to be a procedural and not lecture the audience, show.

 

With you 100% although I prictured Noah and Ice T grilling a pimp in an alley. L&O: ABCs anyone? Maybe a summer series? Or Netflix? And I thought they were trying really hard not to lecture the audience this week or give us a clear take. The show has always had a tendency to be a bit didactic and became more heavy handed over the course of the run, but I think they've made a real effort to go away from that this season. It's almost felt like the early seasons of the mothership in trying to present multiple POVs and good and bad people on both sides. I do think they've made a mistake in giving us three "Issues" episodes in  a row and not mixing in a straight up case of the week. I thought each of them was good, but it's a bit much and I'd like to see the same improved writing with something a little lighter.

[preeya]

For a show that has been on for 17 seasons, it holds up quite well. Not the best, but certainly far from the worst.

[Empress1]

They actually made kind of a big deal about writing this pregnancy in. Apparently it has never happened in the L&O universe (I read the article kinda sloppy though so I could be wrong, and I've stopped listening or reading WL articles/interviews so I dunno exactly what he said on the subject)

They wrote in Kathryn Erbe's pregnancy on Criminal Intent.  They made her a surrogate for her sister rather than giving her a baby. I don't watch that iteration but remembered reading that somewhere and looked it up. I'm OK with writing in a character's pregnancy if it makes sense for the story - or if it doesn't, leaving the baby offscreen. When the show starts bending over backwards to make a character's pregnancy make sense at the expense of character development or the larger story, I get annoyed. 

 

I agree with y'all that this episode was doing a little too much. And as a black woman, I was NOT on Olivia's side, although I get why she was on the side she was on. I felt a little vindicated by the fictional grand jury since the black community has seen so many cops walk after killing young (sometimes actual, literal children) black men.

[solequeene]

I really like this episode. I'm not from or in the USA so it doesn't really have the same impact and I'm sure I've missed a lot of layers, but I think it was well done.
 
Olivia's POV was unsympathetic but ICC and understandable. Her actions, too, felt like the old Olivia (like making Carisi search the victim's apartment without a warrant and telling him to "get creative"). I was sad that Finn was almost not there and I loved Carisi, from this worry about the warrant to his trust and later defense of Barba. I saw Declan's thing coming but I liked it, too. Low drama for two people who are highly volatile, good for them.
 
Barba was love, btw. Not only from a shallow perspective (although he was really hot) but also from a narrative perspective. It makes sense that he is under a lot of pressure after last episode's stunt and it also felt... personal, I guess? He seemed actually upset about the whole thing. Was this Grand Jury different from the ones we usually see? Or was it just filmed differently? Also, where does he know the reverend from? And isn't Barba assigned to SVU? Can he prosecute other random crimes? Or was he put to it to make him pay for being sassy last week?
 
I kept flashing back to Jolene Castille's episode (American Tragedy) episode. In that one, even before finding out the civil cases against Castille and her racist remarks, the squad was sure she should have been able to tell that the vic was not armed and meant her no harm, even though he fit the profile the police released (and it was a crap profile, btw) and she fit the rapist's targets traits. Now, the fact that she was a racist cannot be overlooked, even though the jury did. But in this case, Olivia thinks that police officers can shoot someone to death (35 bullets!) because they think he is armed, even though they could not see the gun -that didn't exist- and even though they could have shot to incapacitate (and we have seen cops doing that many time) while she also thinks that Castille should have known she was not going to be raped and that the victim was not armed and chosen to run or scream. It seems inconsistent writing.
 
Does that make sense? Sorry, English is not my first language.
 
Anyway, really liked this episode and hoping to see consequences of it between the main characters.

Edited October 15, 2015 by solequeene

[Setra]

Huh. Not nearly as terrible as I feared. Liked the twist with the upped charges.

 

I really liked that Benson was on the "other" side of the argument, that she sided with the cops, no questions asked (almost). And when I say I liked it, I mean in a bad way; I liked that we got this 'ugly' (sort of) side of Benson. I would have hated to see Saint Benson being all "I would never do such a thing, these officers are incompetent". She stuck by her own. That's the sad truth of police brutality.

 

That said, I also liked that there was a more experienced cop who acted more conservatively, who only fired 3 shots ('only 3 shots' is still 3 too many, of course, but still). That shows that a) good cops can still kill, as Barba sassed later and b) that some cops are better than others. That, and the fact the cops were charged with different crimes, was a good way to try and undo the mentality of "all cops are the same" (whatever you might think that "same" is, bad or good).

 

Barba is totally heading for... something. Health-wise, probably. I love it. I loved seeing the pressure he was under and that's the kind of Barba story I like to watch. Snark is fun, but this is legit.

 

Always good seeing Tucker, even better to see him in polo shirts and without a jacket. Forget Barba and Dodds and whatever, Benson/Tucker is where it's at. It is settled. It was settled when she was all "sleep with a radio under your pillow?" and he was all "wanna see?" (with his eyes). Make it happen, show!

 

Declan as Amanda's babydaddy? And he wants to be there for her? "Call me and I'll be on a plane in 1 hour (and then in NYC in, like, 12 more hours because Serbia is an ocean away)"? I mean, OK.

 

Oh and he literally popped up from behind a car, all "Oh hi Amand- is that my baby?" And Dumas saw her belly and was all "Congratul- so who's the father?" Like, do none of those people have manners?

 

I LOVED seeing Scott William Winters. He's such a good actor and he still looks so handsome and his voice is just, mmmmm. I would have loved to have gotten more of him on SVU over the years, but still, this one episode was so great for him. I'm glad he got more screentime and some great moments.

 

Lastly, my boo Carisi remains fabulous and I love him.

Dumas, Declan, Tucker and Barba all on my screen in an hour. Grand slam!!

[runforcover]

This is weird because all of the pieces are good, like better than ever. Great cast, characters, etc. And I totally turned off the episode within 7 minutes. Olivia can't carry this show without a grisly a-political crime at least being central to the picture. Because I can totally watch other shows that do whatever this is better. BOO

[Bananna]

Eh, this episode surprsied me. I thought it was going to be rather clumsy, but it was alright. It seemed to be try and fairly present the arguments given, but jesus Olivia with her repetiton of "they were following procedure" wasn't helping her side at all. I was also pleasantly surprised that Rollins' "Who's the Daddy?" plotline got resolved with one convenient appearance from Donal. I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing standard case of the week sometime, as it's getting a bit repetitive covering all these issues one after the other. However, apparently they're doing an episode based on the whole Josh Duggar molesting story so I'm going to be looking forward to that one.

 

I hope they're going to come back to the whole rapist issue, because y'know the show's supposed to be about sex crimes. I reckon Barba is going to end up having some sort of anxiety attack, or something because no one can have a happy life whatsoever.

 

Also, wtf happened at the end of the episode? They were all in a bar complaining about the indictments and then apparently someone was shot? Who was shot?

[RafaelBarba35]

This was a good episode. I loved it. I have a few questions though.

Do cop now have nothing but their guns with live ammunition to rely on? No tazers? No mace? Hell in the episode Burned they used rubber bullets to take a guy down. Do they not have access to those? Are cops just being taught to use deadly force and nothing else? Also why the hell would you handcuff someone who is unconscious and bleeding? They are obviously not going anywhere.

Rafael is obviously under a lot of pressure. As he said its his last chance to get back in the good graces of City Hall and if he doesn't get the indictment its on him. Is his job in jeopardy? I'm worried about him. I don't want to lose him. Plus the fact that he and Olivia are on the opposite sides here. At the grand jury when she said that the police were following procedure the look on Rafi's face was heartbreaking. How is that going to affect the relationship between him and the squad.

I hate that press guy. He's an ass. He tells Barba to clear these guys and then tells the parents that they are launching a thorough investigation. Jerk.

Carisi was good. He seemed to be the only one who was sticking up for Rafael. I wasn't too happy about him searching a place without a warrant but he was told by Olivia to do so.

[arjumand]

Carisi was good. He seemed to be the only one who was sticking up for Rafael. I wasn't too happy about him searching a place without a warrant but he was told by Olivia to do so.

 

I usually love Carisi and this time I loved him more - especially during that search. See, he was really freaking out, as it went on and on and it became increasingly clear that the kid was innocent, and so he was searching an innocent kid's home without a warrant.

 

He knew - long before St Olivia knew - that it was a bad shoot. Which is why he stood up for Barba, in my opinion. I also liked the way he smirked when Dumas wanted to make a move on Rollins before she turned around, and Carisi was all "Sure, dude. You do that."

[Princess Lucky]

Carisi was good. He seemed to be the only one who was sticking up for Rafael. I wasn't too happy about him searching a place without a warrant but he was told by Olivia to do so.

 

 

I usually love Carisi and this time I loved him more - especially during that search. See, he was really freaking out, as it went on and on and it became increasingly clear that the kid was innocent, and so he was searching an innocent kid's home without a warrant.

 

He knew - long before St Olivia knew - that it was a bad shoot. Which is why he stood up for Barba, in my opinion. I also liked the way he smirked when Dumas wanted to make a move on Rollins before she turned around, and Carisi was all "Sure, dude. You do that."

 

Agreed. Carisi had a pretty different position about everything, and I was impressed. I was especially thrown when Carisi asked about the warrant a second time, on the phone with Benson. She basically said "it's coming, enough already, just do what I told you". And this was after Carisi had asked the roommate about the dead guy's haircut, which seemed to seal the deal for Carisi that they had the wrong guy.

 

It seemed like Carisi was less interested in tying the particular suspect to the crime and more interested in actually finding the truth. Which is more than I can say for most people in this episode.

 

And in the end he did stick up for Barba, because he correctly guessed what happened (that the Grand Jury had made the decision to charge with manslaughter). I love how often Carisi has been shown to be right this season. It happened last season too, but the show sort of glossed over it. This season they seem to be highlighting it. Which is fine by me.

[Monkeybball]

DECLAN IS THE BABY'S DADDY!!!! I really didn't think they were gonna go there.  But the minute he showed up on screen and the first thing he said was "HOW FAR ALONG ARE YOU?!" i was like OOOOH MY GOD!

 

Donal Logue is SUCH a freaking good actor.  It's amazing.  Just with his facial expressions alone I felt a million different things.  Kelli Giddish is good, but she is no match for Logue (not that that's even an insult, not many are).

 

This case sucked.  It's one of these things where, yes, the shooting of an unarmed and INNOCENT!!! boy, person, whatever, is such a ridiculous tragedy.  But I just don't like the implication that is constantly thrown around that THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. These things happen in a split second.  You're in the heat of the moment.  You can't see everything.  Now some might say that that is even more a reason for someone NOT to shoot (and they wouldn't be wrong) but that's not how cops are trained.  

 

What I think was the bigger problem, and I'm glad they didn't completely play this down although they didn't address it the way I would have wished, was that the cops emptied their clips (minus Dumas).  The minute a bullet hit him, the threat was all but eliminated.  Good luck convincing me that, even if he managed to grab his gun, he would have been able to get off a square shot.  

 

I almost thought at the end they were rushing to the hospital because Barba had a heart attack or alcohol poisoning or a heart attack brought on by alcohol poisoning. 

 

I was VERY unsatisfied at the end of this episode.

 

Why was that one female detective throwing shade at Rollins?

[Hero]

Eh, this episode surprsied me. I thought it was going to be rather clumsy, but it was alright. It seemed to be try and fairly present the arguments given, but jesus Olivia with her repetiton of "they were following procedure" wasn't helping her side at all. I was also pleasantly surprised that Rollins' "Who's the Daddy?" plotline got resolved with one convenient appearance from Donal. I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing standard case of the week sometime, as it's getting a bit repetitive covering all these issues one after the other. However, apparently they're doing an episode based on the whole Josh Duggar molesting story so I'm going to be looking forward to that one.

I hope they're going to come back to the whole rapist issue, because y'know the show's supposed to be about sex crimes. I reckon Barba is going to end up having some sort of anxiety attack, or something because no one can have a happy life whatsoever.

Also, wtf happened at the end of the episode? They were all in a bar complaining about the indictments and then apparently someone was shot? Who was shot?

A cop got shot at the end, probably in retaliation of boy that Dumas and his team killed.

[Princess Lucky]

A cop got shot at the end, probably in retaliation of boy that Dumas and his team killed.

I didn't even get that at first, I thought the rapist had struck again, and they were all like "oops, we forgot to catch that guy, and now he moved on to murder". I thought the crying woman had been a victim of rape, and her husband had been killed after he was made to watch. After reading the comments and rewatching, I realized she was a cop's wife.

 

That changes my perception of the episode. I suppose that was meant to show that the cycle of violence continues, but why does the episode end on a dead cop? Was I supposed to feel bad about him? A cop, who obviously assumed that risk (of getting killed, or hurt) the moment he got a badge and a gun? Was I supposed to feel worse than I felt about the dead black kid? Because when the black kid died, Benson was all "find his gun, pin the rape on him, get creative, screw the warrant", but when the cop died she was all sad and morose and "we lost one of our own and he had 2 kids, the horror!".

 

Eh.

[gesundheit]

I was pretty impressed that for once they allowed Olivia to be sanctimonious and WRONG! I was delighted.

 

I think it was a little cowardly to sideline Fin this episode. It was nice to see Carisi take the right position, but it was sort of like they were afraid to let the one series regular of color actually get to weigh in on a race-based issue.

 

The grand jury indictment was a bit of wish fulfillment (I almost laughed when the guilty cops were all "we're done for" so early on -- the whole problem is that they usually don't get indicted for killing unarmed black men!), but of course that's a big reason we watch the show: it's a fantasy land where horrible things happen, yes, but justice is usually served.

[Bill C.]

I've got to say it: how in the world could Declan Murphy find out that Amanda was pregnant while in deep cover in Eastern Europe?  Is/was his handler that much of a blabbermouth?

 

As for the rest of the episode?  wknt3 aptly noted that this was the third Issue Episode in a row, let alone the biggie of the three...and the only one with any sort of SVU-style hook, which they promptly shoved aside in favor of the Big Issue.  That part in and of itself was kind of exhausting, regardless of the episode itself being good--which it was, if in that ongoing downer vibe from the past few episodes.  Rather like with Transgender Bridge two weeks back, the show at least tried for a relatively even-handed approach--at least until the end, when the grand jury wanted to file more severe charges against Dumas and Campesi--and that included (reluctantly, IMO) newly-minted 3M Command Strip Liv supporting the police party line that they were in the right in the heat of the moment.  Which is something that can never be truly judged externally, IMO, and the show even tried to communicate that in its way.  That said, Barba's position was just as valid--and Carisi supporting him was nice.

 

Next week, apparently, we get back to something resembling regular SVU.  I think we need the break.

[slowpoked]

 

Was I supposed to feel worse than I felt about the dead black kid? Because when the black kid died, Benson was all "find his gun, pin the rape on him, get creative, screw the warrant"

But she immediately backed off though when the DNA came out. I don't blame Liv on that situation. It was the heat of the moment. They were chasing a violent rapist, they thought they had the guy, and they had the fictional story in line with the real life cases of Baltimore, Ferguson, so there was a lot of pressure to get it "right". 

 

I even support Liv's position that the cellphone video taker obviously will have a different angle than the cops who were chasing the kid. The video taker was a couple hundred feet safe and not in the line of fire or middle of the chase, so of course he gets the bird's eye view. The cops were right in the middle of the action and only have nanoseconds to decide what to do. For one, Campesi only had his eye on the kid, she can't fully see how Dumas and the other cop are positioned or how they're going to react. The video taker obviously has the view on all of them. 

 

Was the cop who got shot in the end black? Because if he was, I wonder if Reverend would also show up and grandstand on his behalf. Is the "Black Lives Matter" movement only for civilians?

 

So Declan is the baby daddy? And apparently it happened during a "blizzard in February". Last I saw Declan, he was deep undercover with Johnny in that sex trafficking ring. And that bust that SVU made where they caught him was a Superbowl party, no? And Superbowls are in February. Hmmmm...so Declan got to sneak in some time with Rollins before he went deep undercover again.

[FozzyBear]

I thought Olivia's "get creative" with the warrant was unforgivable. She should be fired. There is no excuse for blatant police misconduct like that especially sense they had enough information to start to doubt if they had the right suspect (different hair cut, no gun to be found) BEFORE she sent Carissi up to search the apartment. My interpretation of the sceen was actually that Olivia knew it was a bad ID and was sending Carisi on a Hail Mary mission hoping she was wrong. It had nothing to do with catching a rapist. Absolutely beyond any reasonable judgement call and she should be taken to task for it.

Oh and I'm not anti-PD. I've spent years working in government with police and I have the upmost respect for them. But as the show pointed out (rather well for L&O SVU too), these heavy handed tactics don't make us safer or solve crime. A kid is dead, 3 cops who seem like decent officers will probably go to jail, oh yeah AND THE RAPIST IS STILL FREE! Asking PD to patrol civilian populations with these tactics has pretty much no actual evidence to support its effectiveness. Ok, rant over.

Anyway, surprisingly good episode. I loved how much Rafi had a "Are you fucking kidding me, white lady?!?!?" thought bubble over his head every time he was talking to Olivia.

One more time for good measure: Fire Olivia! She is a horrible officer and should not be in charge of a Clue board game, let alone a police squad!

[wknt3]

The more I think about it, the more I don't like the ending. After trying so hard to make both sides sympathetic, it seems dangerously close to endorsing the idea that real accountability for police leads to cops getting killed. I think finding out that the attacker had struck again or just leaving it open ended at the bar would have been a better finish and the extra minute or two from getting rid of the hospital scene could have been used to give the parents more time to explain why a "good kid" might run from the police or giving Fin a POV or adding another wrinkle or more depth somewhere.

[Snookums]

. Plus that would put him at 3 kids with 3 women.

 

 

That's why they didn't do it. Amaro has been shown to be a good, involved parent but since he's no longer on the show he wouldn't be around; it would make him look pretty dickish for no good reason.

 

Ugh, this one. Everything is horrible. The initial crimes, the race to get the guy (love how Olivia's superiors can't wait to smart off about how she 'hasn't gotten the guy yet'--DUDE. THEY ARE TRYING. Is she supposed to become Supergirl out of nowhere?) the panic, the knowledge that a "brother's" family was so heinously violated, and the the worst, worst, worst outcome imaginable. Another young innocent Black man shot down for nothing. For wearing a basketball jersey. 

 

Barba pushed hard and he was right to do so, but the cops and Olivia, infuriating as she was, had a point too. They're on a ticking clock, looking for a violent sociopath who clearly would murder someone as soon as look at them. It's dark, everybody they're trying to talk to is angry or can't help them, they see a guy who runs, he matches the description...and thirty five shots. Thirty five bullets ricocheting around that enclosure. Everybody panic-reviewing everything they've said and done for the last twenty four hours. We don't care if this hump makes it through the night, etc. Everything turned into one horrible decision that they can't take back.

 

I like how they left the case open ended. Barba explaining how the burden of intent is MUCH higher for manslaughter and how the grand jury wanted to indict for that out of real desire to prove they were taking everything seriously. Will it make things harder or easier in the long run? It sounds like the guy who shot three times will end up with the case that sticks and the other two will end up walking because they won't be able to prove what's needed for manslaughter. 

 

Amanda and Declan, sitting in a tree! I had a feeling. Although I would like to know how the hell he was pulled of of deep cover with Serbian gangsters to go have "the talk" with her--those are very understanding thugs, there. "Oh, you have relationship issue? Is no problem, we pick up trafficking of human misery on Monday! Have good weekend!"

[solequeene]

I'm not a lawyer so I don't get why it woukd be hard to prove that their intent was to kill the vic.

[GarnetGirl]

I think I have a lot of random thoughts about this episode:

 

1. Can somebody get Scott William Winters a tv show? I would watch it.

2. That show should have Donal Logue on it too. I would really watch that.

3. Olivia annoyed me so much in the episode- I understand that it was in character for her to defend the cops' actions, but that grand jury testimony enraged me if only because Rafael has put himself on the line for her so many times (Lewis, Noah's paternity, almost every case where there is hardly any evidence). For her to be angry with him just bugged me. I hope Mariska Hargitay has a good chiropractor, because with all of these special issue episodes, she has had to do a LOT of shaking her head in resigned disappointment.

4. I will become murderous if at any time in the next few episodes, Barba a)apologizes to Olivia or b) has to learn a "lesson" about police officers having tough jobs.

5. All I could think was "My poor baby" when Barba was drinking alone at the end of the episode.  I do not think I will be able to handle a health crisis for my favorite  fictional character so I hope he can go yachting or skiing in Gstaad to get a well-deserved break.

6. I agree with all the people that were disappointed Ice-T was sidelined in this episode. You would think that someone who had a song about killing cops might have wanted a bigger role in this episode. I really liked Isiah Whitlock's character in this episode.

7. I am ready for Rollins to have that baby.

8. Carisi continues to hold a strong second place in my heart on this show. I thought the scene where he was searching the apartment was really well done. As the search went on, you could see and feel his growing apprehension that this was not going to end well.

9. All in all I thought this was a good episode. A couple of seasons ago it would have ended with a "twist" like the couple had faked the attack so they could get rid of their daughter or something stupid like that. I thought this was relatively balanced and thoughtful and engaging.

[FozzyBear]

That's why they didn't do it. Amaro has been shown to be a good, involved parent but since he's no longer on the show he wouldn't be around; it would make him look pretty dickish for no good reason.

Ugh, this one. Everything is horrible. The initial crimes, the race to get the guy (love how Olivia's superiors can't wait to smart off about how she 'hasn't gotten the guy yet'--DUDE. THEY ARE TRYING. Is she supposed to become Supergirl out of nowhere?) the panic, the knowledge that a "brother's" family was so heinously violated, and the the worst, worst, worst outcome imaginable. Another young innocent Black man shot down for nothing. For wearing a basketball jersey.

Barba pushed hard and he was right to do so, but the cops and Olivia, infuriating as she was, had a point too. They're on a ticking clock, looking for a violent sociopath who clearly would murder someone as soon as look at them. It's dark, everybody they're trying to talk to is angry or can't help them, they see a guy who runs, he matches the description...and thirty five shots. Thirty five bullets ricocheting around that enclosure. Everybody panic-reviewing everything they've said and done for the last twenty four hours. We don't care if this hump makes it through the night, etc. Everything turned into one horrible decision that they can't take back.

I like how they left the case open ended. Barba explaining how the burden of intent is MUCH higher for manslaughter and how the grand jury wanted to indict for that out of real desire to prove they were taking everything seriously. Will it make things harder or easier in the long run? It sounds like the guy who shot three times will end up with the case that sticks and the other two will end up walking because they won't be able to prove what's needed for manslaughter.

Amanda and Declan, sitting in a tree! I had a feeling. Although I would like to know how the hell he was pulled of of deep cover with Serbian gangsters to go have "the talk" with her--those are very understanding thugs, there. "Oh, you have relationship issue? Is no problem, we pick up trafficking of human misery on Monday! Have good weekend!"

I actually thought they did a pretty decent job of showing how the problem is really an institutional distrust of certain groups of people and racism, not bad cops. They weren't bad cops (well maybe the woman. She was weird as hell about everything. I thought the twist at the end was going to be that she saw it wasn't a gun and yelled gun away), but they were reacting to a situation where they were all but being told to shot first, ask questions later. They went into this neighborhood like it was a war zone looking for the vaguest profile ever. Black guy in his 20s wearing a jersey? Come on! The kid shouldn't have run, but people were being forcible stopped and grabbed and questioned on the sidewalk in his neighborhood. Can you even imagine if they'd gone into Bayonne like that with the description of "Blond chick holding a pumpkin spice latte" and some random girl got shot because she went to Starbucks? And as Barba pointed out, they weren't actually in any danger. PD created a heightened narrative that made people holding guns feel like they had to fear everyone they encountered. Just sad all around. And I love, love, love that yet again Carisi is the only cop who kind of gets it. He was still trying to make sure the officers got their best chance but you could see that he knew how FUBARed the whole thing was.

[Snookums]

I'm not a lawyer so I don't get why it would be hard to prove that their intent was to kill the vic.

 

 

Basically Barba would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt (not just "I can just tell" or hearsay) that the two cops charged with manslaughter intended to shoot and kill the suspect when they found him. Not just a panicky situation that's going so fast you don't even know what happened but that they didn't even try to find another way, that they had decided, before they located the suspect, that their line of first resort was deadly force.

 

That would be super, super hard to prove. The video? Grotesque as it was, it didn't show them conferring, didn't show that the kid wasn't reaching for his waist, didn't show them planting a gun or saying "oh, geez, what are we gonna do?" and concocting a story. Their attorney would have called both their captain and Olivia to prove these cops were told to put their own safety above risk, that their superiors didn't care, quote, if the guy [the suspect, at that point] didn't make it through the night. The convenience store owner would have to testify that he saw what he thought was a gun at the subject's waist and that he told the cops that. Any of the dozens of people stopped throughout the night would either say nothing useful or that the sketch they were shown kinda looked like this or that person.

 

Basically Barba will have nothing to show that these officers weren't exactly in the state of mind they said they were, and with nothing else--no witness, no physical evidence of any kind disproving their story--he can't win. 

[solequeene]

I see. But, idk (not American, either) what other intent can it be but to kill if you empty two clips in a peron's bodies? Police are trained to use guns, right? They could have shot to incapacitate (even if the guy hands were going up) but decided to use extreme and unnecesary force, unlike the detective who only shot thrice. What were they intending to do if not kill?

[FozzyBear]

I see. But, idk (not American, either) what other intent can it be but to kill if you empty two clips in a peron's bodies? Police are trained to use guns, right? They could have shot to incapacitate (even if the guy hands were going up) but decided to use extreme and unnecesary force, unlike the detective who only shot thrice. What were they intending to do if not kill?

I am American, but not a lawyer. Excessive force is manslaughter. It is reckless to the point of causing death, but the intent going in is to arrest not kill. Intent for murder as I understand it would be proving that they intended the shoot the rapist no matter what. What happened was that they told someone to stop several times and then shot (recklessly) when they thought he had a gun. Their intent had been to arrest him but they shot (recklessly) because they thought he had a gun. Manslaughter is still a serious charge.

Edited October 17, 2015 by FozzyBear

[wknt3]

 

I see. But, idk (not American, either) what other intent can it be but to kill if you empty two clips in a peron's bodies? Police are trained to use guns, right? They could have shot to incapacitate (even if the guy hands were going up) but decided to use extreme and unnecesary force, unlike the detective who only shot thrice. What were they intending to do if not kill?

 

Shooting to incapacitate doesn't work. Very very few are good are enough shots to accurately hit a non-lethal area, the situation is usually moving too fast for those who are or there are other obstacles (it's why they're always telling snipers on shows that they can shoot "if you get a shot") and even if you hit them there's often still a good possibility they can respond with deadly force. Police are always trained to aim for center mass and only when lethal force is justified because of this. It's one of things that the mothership handled a lot better - I remember the episode when Lupo & Bernard shot a suspect and Van Buren told them only 4 of their shots hit the perp. As far as the officer that only fired three times I believe they were inspired by actual shootings where there is sometimes a tendency to keep firing if others are and they were trying to introduce another shade of gray by bringing the issue of trigger discipline in to the mix.

 

I am American, but not a lawyer. Excessive force is manslaughter. It is reckless to the point of causing death, but the intent going in is to arrest not kill. Intent for murder as I understand it would be proving that they intended the shoot the rapist no matter what. What happened was that they told someone to stop several times and then shot (recklessly) when they thought he had a gun. Their intent had been to arrest him but they shot (recklessly) because they thought he had a gun. Manslaughter is still a serious charge.

 

Basically it. Not a lawyer either, but have edited and fact checked articles on the law. Also I've watched just about all of L&O's 5000 episodes centered on proving intent ;-) In excessive force or self defense it's the difference between demonstrating that you should have known and acted recklessly and proving that you did know and intentionally harmed someone. I intended to shoot him and kill him if necessary because he was reaching for a gun vs. I intended to shoot/kill him knowing he posed no threat with some other motivation.

Edited October 17, 2015 by wknt3

[solequeene]

Got it.

The GJ ended up going with manslaughter, right? And reckless endangerement for the 3 bullets dude. What is his name, btw? I keep calling him Not-Cassidy.

[innocuouspuff]

Part of the issue with US police shootings is that the law in theory and juries in practice give them huge amount of leeway in defending themselves. Even more than a civilian might get. As long as they can argue they perceived fear, which doesn't at all require an actual threat, the law is on their side. It's pretty impossible to overcome, no matter what the charges really. The episode was touching on that when they had the officers keep repeating "I was in fear for my life." Pretty much all they need to say, so I thought Raul did a good job showing his horror at the practical implications of dealing with an even more impossible prosecution.

Barba and Carisi both had some good quiet beats, but I too was dying to hear Fin's opinion.

In fact they did their best to throw in all the debate points, including that bit at the end to remind us how totally dangerous it is to be a police officer!!! Up to then I found the ep surprisingly pro-BLM. That's usually the stumbling block for the discussion, the idea of what if the police officer doesn't shoot first and then gets hurt. (At which point they could just nuke us all from space and live safely ever after, but whatever.)

Declan and Amanda: the ship I didn't even know I had.

Edited October 18, 2015 by innocuouspuff

[RafaelBarbas]

I actually liked the scene at the end even if it was a bit rushed. To me it wasn't about "blue lives matter" or saying accountability kills cops or anything of the sort. It was a reminder that when some cops do horrible things, it increases tensions and then innocents, police and not, will pay for it. It doesn't take anything away from the BLM movement- you can feel sympathy for more than one group at the same time.

[innocuouspuff]

Hmmn. I didn't infer that the second shooting was a result of the first one, or that they really knew anything about it either way. More of a reminder that the threats they're taught to worry about aren't totally imaginary and that the results are tragic. I didn't think it was an unfair point or that sympathy is bad, it just abruptly changed the overall tenor of the episode for me. Which is how the show rolls. You're thinking one thing, bam mood change, bam credits.

In fact if I had inferred a connection between shootings, that would have seemed worse. Admittedly it's hard for me to separate this from the real world discussion, and I'd assume the writers actually want eps like this to run parallel with the discourse even though they've got the drama dials turned up so high. And in the discussion, there's a strong trend of feeling that the BLM movement is intrinsically violent, that there's a war on police, that the slogan is basically code for "die, white people, die". And that's why they need to be kept in line. So having that anger directly cause a police officer's death would seem to me like an extremely pro blue lives message which justifies mistrust of the community.

And maybe they intentionally kept it vague to get us chatting! Hee.

Anyway it reminds me of the Gamergate ep in that there's no way really to make people with strong feelings on either side completely happy. Nature of the SVU beast imo and for them to even try would result in some pretty awkward television.

[Kel Varnsen]

This case sucked.  It's one of these things where, yes, the shooting of an unarmed and INNOCENT!!! boy, person, whatever, is such a ridiculous tragedy.  But I just don't like the implication that is constantly thrown around that THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. These things happen in a split second.  You're in the heat of the moment.  You can't see everything.  Now some might say that that is even more a reason for someone NOT to shoot (and they wouldn't be wrong) but that's not how cops are trained.  

 

That is sort of how i felt. Yes the shooting of an unarmed suspect is bad, but even the first time they showed the video it looked like the guy was turning around ready to point something at the cops. I get that the whole policing system is fucked up in a lot of places but I am not sure how potentially convicting 2 cops of murder would actually fix any of the fundamental problems. It's like the Whoppi Goldberg episode where convicting some social workers doesn't fix that fucked up system either.