Pet Peeves: The Holy Trinity and Beyond

[StatisticalOutlier]

On my wonkily wired outlets that I changed to white--I called a friend of mine whose dad is an electrician and asked him for advice, so I considered myself sufficiently experienced to take on the job. :-)

I don't know if the wiring was to code or not, and I had it inspected before I bought it and the inspector didn't say anything. 

It was a condominium (former apartment) and my bathroom sink was against a shared wall that had my neighbor's bathroom sink on it.  His drain drained into my drain.  I noticed because my gooseneck developed a hole, so I stopped using that sink and I still got water coming out of it. 

So yeah, there were unusual things.  But when a unit caught on fire and burned completely up one night and killed the woman inside (it was not an electrical fire, improbably enough), the unit above hers suffered only slight smoke damage and the guy moved back in the next day.  The unit attached on the side didn't suffer any damage at all.  In the grand scheme of things, the fire walls win over wiring that isn't what one would expect.

Back to outlets--I had a friend who painted a room dark green, and painted the outlet covers dark green, too.  But left the receptacles beige.  It looked AWFUL and this is someone who usually has pretty good design sense.  When he went to sell, his realtor agreed to pay to repaint that room out of her own money before putting it on the market--it was that heinous. 

[Nysha]

I allowed my kids to paint their own rooms, which meant purple, orange, 2 different blues, and a dark green. Just before I put the house on the market, I bought a 5 gallon bucket of Killz primer and a 5 gallon bucket of flat off-white paint, then rented a sprayer. It wasn't the most professional of paint jobs, but I think the house showed better than keeping the bold colors the kids choose.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Nysha

[Mu Shu]

On 1/2/2017 at 1:37 PM, Kohola3 said:

Well, shoot, I will have to demolish my 2 year old bathroom and start over with matte brass.  Sigh.

No way.  You can sign up as a bait house.  Then some whining up talkers can bitch about your dated bathroom.  I'm sure they may give you five bucks and a coupon for 59 cents off a crunch wrap supreme from Taco Bell.  Damn,  these fools only make 500 bucks for their time and tomfoolery?    

[Kohola3]

9 hours ago, Mu Shu said:

You can sign up as a bait house.

Not sure I could stand the snotty comments about the horrendous colors and horrible decorating.  I might have to cut someone.

[Haleth]

On 1/24/2017 at 4:17 PM, StatisticalOutlier said:

Back to outlets--I had a friend who painted a room dark green, and painted the outlet covers dark green, too.  But left the receptacles beige.  It looked AWFUL and this is someone who usually has pretty good design sense.

<whispering>  (I did that with the outlets.  I hated having eyes drawn to big white rectangles on the walls.  Only the outlets though, not the wall switch covers.  And I didn't bother changing the switches to white when I replaced almond covers with white.  It's an easy fix if any prospective buyers complain.)  Of course on HH the buyers would immediately rule out my house because the covers don't match the switches.  Horrors!

Edited January 29, 2017 by Haleth

[Kohola3]

21 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Of course on HH the buyers would immediately rule out my house because the covers don't match the switches.

Gut job.  Completely unworkable.

[vesperholly]

11 hours ago, Haleth said:

<whispering>  (I did that with the outlets.  I hated having eyes drawn to big white rectangles on the walls.  Only the outlets though, not the wall switch covers.  And I didn't bother changing the switches to white when I replaced almond covers with white.  It's an easy fix if any prospective buyers complain.)  Of course on HH the buyers would immediately rule out my house because the covers don't match the switches.  Horrors!

You can do what the sellers of my house did: Buy full-cover face plates.

Of course, none of them were flush to the wall which drove me nuts, and I didn't like plugging through something to the outlet, so I immediately changed them back to ... white covers with almond plugs, LOL

[Mittengirl]

I can remember when it was an absolute must to paint your wall plates to match the wall.  I even remember ones you could wallpaper over.   I live in a house built in the '50's and most rooms only have one or two plates per wall, so it does look odd to me when there are five or six plates on one wall and they are all bright white.

Tangentially, is there some code (building/safety) that prohibits painting the fuse box cover?  Mine is in the basement, so it doesn't matter what it looks like, but they always stick out to me, when they are in a very visible area and are battleship gray.

[Ottis]

On 1/24/2017 at 2:17 PM, StatisticalOutlier said:

It was a condominium (former apartment) and my bathroom sink was against a shared wall that had my neighbor's bathroom sink on it.  His drain drained into my drain.  I noticed because my gooseneck developed a hole, so I stopped using that sink and I still got water coming out of it. 

A-ha! You have solved a 20-year mystery for me. Back in the mid 90s, I lived in an apartment where the bathroom wall clearly matched a similar wall in the bathroom in the next door apartment - where an older woman lived, who was a smoker. And every time I heard noises coming from her bathroom, my bathroom would spell like cigarette smoke. I finally definitely tracked it to the sink drain, and I could not figure out how her smoke would end up in my drain. I used to fill the sink with a little water with the drain closed, to stop it, even though I had no idea why this worked. Soon after, I moved. So now, thanks to the power of these boards, I have one less unknown in my life. Thank you, Stat!

[StatisticalOutlier]

16 hours ago, Mittengirl said:

Tangentially, is there some code (building/safety) that prohibits painting the fuse box cover?  Mine is in the basement, so it doesn't matter what it looks like, but they always stick out to me, when they are in a very visible area and are battleship gray.

I painted the fuse box cover in my condo.  Of course, this was the unit with the wonky wiring and conjoined plumbing, so a little paint on the fuse box cover was the least of its problems.

In order to list it with the MLS in Austin, Texas, I had to replace the outlets in the kitchen with GFCI ones.  It wasn't an actual law or anything--just something my realtor said the realtors themselves required.  What the hell??

I also had a double deadbolt that the realtor made me switch to a regular one.  The thing is, the unit had only one door, and it was the perfect place to keep my keys.  Never once misplaced them.

 

8 hours ago, Ottis said:

A-ha! You have solved a 20-year mystery for me. Back in the mid 90s, I lived in an apartment where the bathroom wall clearly matched a similar wall in the bathroom in the next door apartment - where an older woman lived, who was a smoker. And every time I heard noises coming from her bathroom, my bathroom would spell like cigarette smoke. I finally definitely tracked it to the sink drain, and I could not figure out how her smoke would end up in my drain. I used to fill the sink with a little water with the drain closed, to stop it, even though I had no idea why this worked. Soon after, I moved. So now, thanks to the power of these boards, I have one less unknown in my life. Thank you, Stat!

Happy to be of service.  I've been on the lookout for a certain odd product for decades, and a random complaint on an unrelated forum produced a reply with a link to that very product.  Paying it forward (without even knowing it).

I learned about plumbing stacks from a friend of mine who studied interior design in college.  It can help me find restrooms in unfamiliar buildings. 

The thing about the water from my neighbor's drain was that it smelled terrible.  Really gross.  I was standing there as the plumber was messing with it when some came in, and he said, "That smells terrible."  When a plumber says something smells terrible...

WRT the holy trinity, when did white kitchens become a must-have?  My problem is that I like the looks of them, and wonder if I'm just being a sheep.  Or maybe people want something different at regular intervals, and this just happened to be next, and I'm in that boat. 

I wonder something similar about the new modern boxes that are going up, especially when they're in-filling cities.  Are people going to like those 20 or 30 years from now?  I just can't stand the apartment buildings that went up in the 1970s and wonder if anybody ever actually liked them.

[chessiegal]

When I bought a new house (new build) in 1992, white kitchen cabinets were all the rage - so over 20 years ago.

[QuinnM]

Quote

When I bought a new house (new build) in 1992, white kitchen cabinets were all the rage - so over 20 years

Me too and when I renovated I went with white again. They just worked for me. A good neutral. Over the years I did red accents and blue. Now I'm doing apple green.  I'm not sure if that's why people like it. Notice they just say I want white and not why. 

[laredhead]

I've had painted white wood cabinets, stained cabinets in various shades, and white laminate cabinets (1975), and now have light stained wood cabinets.  My choice for upkeep is the white laminate, but the present light stained wood with slab doors are by far the most pleasing of all.  Yes, I have lived in several houses over the last 40 years.  I like some of the high gloss brightly colored cabinets we have seen on House Hunter's International.  I don't recall ever seeing any on the U.S. location episodes. 

[Mu Shu]

I like white cabinets because they brighten the space up and are easy to decorate around.

[chessiegal]

Kitchen Cousins who did mostly New Jersey area used a lot of brightly colored cabinets imported from Italy. (lacquered finish).

[TVJunkee]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 3:17 PM, laredhead said:

I have had black, white, avocado green, almond and now stainless steel appliances over the past 40 years.  Of all of them, the green, almond and white were the easiest to clean and did not show smudges or dirt.  The black ones showed all smudges, and the stainless appliances are by the far the most difficult to clean and keep looking nice.  If I could have gotten the range I have in white instead of only stainless, I would have gone with white appliances in my recent kitchen remodel.

Mittengirl, you are correct in your comments about the popcorn ceiling.  Don't forget that it is a very messy process and that everything in your room needs to be removed or covered well and that stuff gets everywhere.     

Love my original 1959 stainless wall oven, but hate my new stainless stovetop and refrigerator.   The older must have been a higher grade of steel.

When we bought our first house before moving in we brought in a garden hose, loosely wet the ceilings and scraped all the 'popcorn' off into the green shag carpeting which we then ripped off, rolled up and threw away.  I don't even remember if we repainted the ceiling but they came out smooth and beautiful and hardwood that had been protected by the shag carpeting all those years was perfect.  A little work and it was like a new room.  This was a house I balked at even entering when the realtor threw open the door because it was so dated.  Of course, I am probably slowly dying of asbestosis because we coughed for a week straight after the popcorn scraping process.  Probably should have worn masks.  Ah youth.

[AuntiePam]

1 hour ago, TVJunkee said:

When we bought our first house before moving in we brought in a garden hose, loosely wet the ceilings and scraped all the 'popcorn' off into the green shag carpeting which we then ripped off, rolled up and threw away. 

We once scraped wallpaper from a ceiling.  It killed our backs and necks and we wondered how difficult it must have been to hang wallpaper on a ceiling.  We also wondered why it was done.  The plaster underneath was fine, after a bit of light sanding and a coat of paint.

[laredhead]

TVJunkee, I think you may be on to something about the quality of stainless steel on today's appliances.  One of my neighbors has all of the original stainless appliances (wall oven, cooktop, and an original refrigerator) in his 1957 kitchen, and they don't show fingerprints like the stainless surfaces on today's appliances.  Wonder if anyone has investigated this? 

[FormerMod-a1]

Well, there's also the fact that a lot of stainless today is stainless finish and not actually stainless steel.  I have found even today's real stainless steel doesn't show the fingerprints and dirt and cleans real easy.

[auntjess]

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 1:35 AM, Mittengirl said:

Tangentially, is there some code (building/safety) that prohibits painting the fuse box cover?  Mine is in the basement, so it doesn't matter what it looks like, but they always stick out to me, when they are in a very visible area and are battleship gray.

Sometimes a cabinet is built over it, but you do want to be able to find it quickly if you need to.

15 hours ago, chessiegal said:

Kitchen Cousins who did mostly New Jersey area used a lot of brightly colored cabinets imported from Italy. (lacquered finish).

Rev. Run's wife Justine got that when she did her kitchen in Rev. Run's Renovations.  It was a store in Saddle River.  If I win the lottery, I want those, but in lime green.
And I want to go shopping with Justine Simmons, who found such neat places to shop.
 

7 hours ago, TVJunkee said:

Love my original 1959 stainless wall oven, but hate my new stainless stovetop and refrigerator.   The older must have been a higher grade of steel.

Weren't the orginal stainless ones the very expensive SubZero  brand ones?  I don't cheaper ones were available when stainless first came on the market.

[TVJunkee]

My old stainless oven and stove top were made by General Electric.  Luckily I was able to find a repairman with a contact somewhere for old parts and have kept the oven going.  Wish I had found him before I replaced the stove top which probably could have been fixed too.    Since I am no housekeeper I don't even notice fingerprints but have so much else to hate about my stainless refrigerator (doesn't make enough ice, bottom drawer freezer freezes shut, etc.).  There's a reason some models end up at the Sears scratch and dent outlet I guess.  Inherently defective.

I saw an old style refrigerator at an estate sale recently that someone had covered completely with Contact paper (in a fab pattern)--that might work for your fuse box, mittengirl

[aguabella]

Anyone mind a belated note about those pesky electrical outlets?

There's no code issue if receptacles are wired to different circuits.  This was done years ago to avoid overloading - typically for kitchens.  For example, if a homeowner plugged in a toaster and microwave to the same receptacle ...

Now, IIRC, I don't believe the GFCI units accommodate multiple circuits but kitchens still reside on at least 2 or 3 circuits, divided by room area.

When changing them out, besides turning off those sections on the panel, I also use a handheld circuit tester.  They're usually $15 or less and occasionally given away as promo items at h/w stores.  Here's an example:

                             https://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-NCVT-2-Non-Contact-Voltage/dp/B004FXJOQO/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1486088262&sr=8-5&keywords=circuit+tester

Happy & safe wiring, everyone!

[aguabella]

P.S.  About those pesky home inspections ...

Inspectors don't normally inspect for code issues.  For one thing, they often work in multiple jurisdictions.  And, homeowners aren't required to bring everything up to current codes prior to resale.  (Sure, some exceptions exist, e.g. GFCI's.)  If they see something and it's a safety issue, they'll call it on their report.  Usually, they simply indicate it's "noncompliant".

Plus, if something isn't readily visible or they can't easily access the area, it's excluded from the inspection and his/her report.  (Sometimes, they'll recommend further inspection.)  They don't consider themselves the code police.  That job belongs to local, building inspectors.

[Bastet]

I watched Kathleen Madigan's Bothering Jesus stand-up special, which contains a bit on watching this show, and she'd fit in nicely here -- she thinks half the couples featured shouldn't be married, she says if she was the realtor for half these people, she'd punch them in the face, she goes off on wanting granite counter tops with a budget of $8, she tells the people whining about needing space for entertaining "No one is coming to see you, anyway," etc.

[Mittengirl]

My current peeve is "switch it out" as in "switch out this chandelier" -  what's wrong with "change" or "replace"?    Do they go to a home improvement store and see a fixture they like and say they have to "switch it in"? 

[FormerMod-a1]

6 hours ago, Mittengirl said:

My current peeve is "switch it out" as in "switch out this chandelier" -  what's wrong with "change" or "replace"?  

Or just "switch".  This "out" business is also added to many things like "stain it out", "paint it out", etc - just "paint it"!  

[mojito]

Bastet, I saw Madigan, too. I wanted her to spend more time on the subject, there's so much material.

[MaKaM]

With the white cabinets replacing the cherry wood of the 00s, I wonder if it is because painting cabinets to update on the cheap became a thing. You can paint cabinets white, but you can't paint them cherry wood and with the crash in 06 people weren't going out and buying new cabinets, they had to make do with what they had or were able to make. You would think that would make white or gray painted cabinets so down market but it hasn't seemed to.

I am thinking about hopping on the "shiplap" bandwagon because I have a crappily finished drywall wall that some idiot (me) put up and can't mud well enough to look decent and covering it with thin pieces of plywood cut into 8" strips and whitewashed seems like an easy way to avoid mudding some more. And barnwood is expensive. And wallpaper needs a good surface to be applied too. I can wield a nail gun, just not the spackle knife. Doubtless this will make my house look dated in a few years, but it will be someone else's problem to get the drywall looking good at that point. :-D

I don't usually notice vocal fry, but there was a couple looking at an island home in SanFran (Alameda? Nuclear wessles?) and I could not deal with her voice. I hope that trend dies soon. I didn't care what she said about any of the houses (and they seemed like a nice couple), I just wanted her to stop speaking.

[Mu Shu]

On 1/31/2017 at 7:32 PM, laredhead said:

TVJunkee, I think you may be on to something about the quality of stainless steel on today's appliances.  One of my neighbors has all of the original stainless appliances (wall oven, cooktop, and an original refrigerator) in his 1957 kitchen, and they don't show fingerprints like the stainless surfaces on today's appliances.  Wonder if anyone has investigated this? 

my guess is that the steel used in appliances today is inferior grade made in China.  I can tell you that every silver piece I've seen stamped China is NOT 925, though it is stamped as such.  The casting grain is crap as well. Such a shame that the silver industry in Mexico declined so cheap junk can flood the market.  Same for Solingen, US, and Japanese steel.  

[auntjess]

Ditch the island; bring back the dining room.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/home/ditch-the-island-why-you-should-rediscover-your-dining-room/2017/03/07/05fadf18-e805-11e6-b82f-687d6e6a3e7c_story.html?utm_term=.1013ee0343c0

[suebee12]

I have a pet peeve, not about designing, but the new way couples state how they want children. I had never heard the term, "growing my/our family" before I started watching HGTV! Is that just me, or do people really say that in real life? Most people I know say they are starting/raising a family....not growing one. I guess they think that having children is like having a garden? Or am I just out of the loop?

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, suebee12 said:

Is that just me, or do people really say that in real life?

Not in my world of acquaintances.  And I had never heard it before HGTV either.  Bet it's on page 3 of the Producers Book of Phrases That Must Be Used At Least Once at Each Filming.

[truther]

I've always heard people refer to their "growing families," though.  Since a lot of the house hunters on these shows seem ignorant of even basic words and phrases, it wouldn't shock me if the same people who think a split-level prefab is a "craftsman-style home" also use terms like "growing our family."  

[Nysha]

I've heard "starting our family" before kids and "our growing family" once the kids started coming and more were expected. But, I've never heard of "growing our family" except in relation to Cabbage Patch kids.

[Bastet]

I think by talking about "growing" their family they mean they're adding to it, which I like a lot more than "starting a family," as the latter implies they're not family until/unless they reproduce.  But, while I like the sentiment (if that even is what they mean), the word choice sounds quite clunky to me -- like Nysha, I picture Cabbage Patch Kids.

[Lady Iris]

HH pet peeve of mine, even if its all staged or whatnot, is when people step into a shower or tub with their grubby shoes. I'd be grossed out if I was still living in that home.

[biakbiak]

11 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

HH pet peeve of mine, even if its all staged or whatnot, is when people step into a shower or tub with their grubby shoes. I'd be grossed out if I was still living in that home.

This always fascinates me because it's a tub/shower something that can easily be cleaned.

[Kohola3]

Quote

HH pet peeve of mine, even if its all staged or whatnot, is when people step into a shower or tub with their grubby shoes. I'd be grossed out if I was still living in that home.

It's not a matter of cleaning it, I think it's extremely intrusive and rude.  There is no reason to have someone climbing in your shower or tub unless it's of an unusually small size and then it should be without shoes. Most tubs and showers are of a standard size, for heaven's sake.

I don't like them going into closets either.  Looking should be sufficient.

[aguabella]

I agree with everyone - tub test driving is a pet peeve of mine.  It's a visual so am sure they do it for the cameras.  In real life, good realtors carry general cleaners and actually tidy up before they lock up a home.

I'm more forgiving of buyers checking out closets.  Sometimes it's difficult to determine their depth.  As long as it's a quick peek and they don't inspect the contents.  Good realtors also remind sellers to tidy up closets b/c an overstuffed closet gives buyers the impression that a home's too small.

And then, we have idiots who test drive a bed!  Why, oh why?  The view?  Yeah, right - whatever.  Everyone remember that guy awhile back who started climbing on a staging bed?  That was obviously staged, however.  So phony - just for the cameras.  

The two women were chatting about a different subject and suddenly he starts moving towards the bed, i.e. as if he'd been told to do it and hurry up b/c the scene was about to wrap.  Reminded me of the crew member who walked down the street past the buyers in the small yard.  Uh, guys, we kinda' know you clear the area b4 filming.  Grrr ...

[aguabella]

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:05 PM, MaKaM said:

With the white cabinets replacing the cherry wood of the 00s, I wonder if it is because painting cabinets to update on the cheap became a thing. You can paint cabinets white, but you can't paint them cherry wood and with the crash in 06 people weren't going out and buying new cabinets, they had to make do with what they had or were able to make. You would think that would make white or gray painted cabinets so down market but it hasn't seemed to.

I am thinking about hopping on the "shiplap" bandwagon because I have a crappily finished drywall wall that some idiot (me) put up and can't mud well enough to look decent and covering it with thin pieces of plywood cut into 8" strips and whitewashed seems like an easy way to avoid mudding some more. And barnwood is expensive. And wallpaper needs a good surface to be applied too. I can wield a nail gun, just not the spackle knife. Doubtless this will make my house look dated in a few years, but it will be someone else's problem to get the drywall looking good at that point. :-D

I don't usually notice vocal fry, but there was a couple looking at an island home in SanFran (Alameda? Nuclear wessles?) and I could not deal with her voice. I hope that trend dies soon. I didn't care what she said about any of the houses (and they seemed like a nice couple), I just wanted her to stop speaking.

Sorry for the slow reply ...

Don't know if cheap updates caused the white kitchen trend.  You can paint / faux cabinets to approximate stained wood, however.  It looks best with a couple shades of paint and a little practice but can be done.

Typically, the older, stained cabinets are much better quality.  If/when kitchens are gutted now, one reason homeowners often go with painted is that paint-grade cabinets are inferior quality and thus, cheaper.  So, that's another reason to stick with the original cabinets.

About your drywall ... if you shiplap over a wall with uneven plaster, assuming the wall's out of level, the shiplap job won't be ideal, either.  The drywall guys are simply whizzes.  Have you ever watched one of the teams?

Sure, if it's only one wall, they might not want to sign on for your job.  If you have any other repair needs, one of the guys that are good at drywall might come out after hours for some extra cash and finish it for you.

Shiplap's (supposedly) already out, lol, so it might date your home if you plan to sell in a few years.  OTOH, if you like shiplap, go for it! 

Good luck!

[rhofmovalley]

"It 'ticks' all my boxes".

Hate that phrase.  I've never used it and never encountered anyone who uses it.  How does one "tick" a box? But an awful lot of these House Hunters seem to have that phrase in their vocabularies.

[Nysha]

20 minutes ago, rhofmovalley said:

"It 'ticks' all my boxes".

Hate that phrase.  I've never used it and never encountered anyone who uses it.  How does one "tick" a box? But an awful lot of these House Hunters seem to have that phrase in their vocabularies.

 

I have probably used this one myself. The HH has made a mental list of wants, with a checkbox next to each item, and mentally "ticks/puts a check" in the box as the want is met.

[rhofmovalley]

3 hours ago, Nysha said:

I have probably used this one myself. The HH has made a mental list of wants, with a checkbox next to each item, and mentally "ticks/puts a check" in the box as the want is met.

I understand the meaning, but it's the word "ticks" that is strange to me. If I have a checklist I "check" off the boxes. I've never said I "ticked" them.

But maybe it's a regional thing?

[AuntiePam]

8 minutes ago, rhofmovalley said:

I understand the meaning, but it's the word "ticks" that is strange to me. If I have a checklist I "check" off the boxes. I've never said I "ticked" them.

But maybe it's a regional thing?

I think it might be British.  I first heard the phrase by someone speaking with a British accent -- might have been on HHI, or maybe somewhere else. 

[biakbiak]

I have heard it all my life and I grew up in Seattle.

[Nysha]

I grew up in Portland, OR, so maybe it is a regional thing. 

[Kohola3]

Midwest - check, not tick.  Ticks are vile little blood sucking bugs.

[aguabella]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 10:11 PM, AuntiePam said:

I think it might be British.  I first heard the phrase by someone speaking with a British accent -- might have been on HHI, or maybe somewhere else. 

 

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 10:21 PM, biakbiak said:

I have heard it all my life and I grew up in Seattle.

 

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 10:59 PM, Nysha said:

I grew up in Portland, OR, so maybe it is a regional thing. 

Yep, I agree.  My understanding is that during the early days of HH/HHI, they often used a London based crew and that phraseology stuck.

BTW, the PacNW has some British roots, e.g. Captain Vancouver, King County (Seattle), etc...

[Mrs. DuRona]

Big pet peeve of mine is when people bring a relative or a friend and said friend is a total Debbie Downer and tries to push for things they want.  I find myself yelling "You're not living in the house, shut up!"

[biakbiak]

3 hours ago, aguabella said:

King County (Seattle),

King County was named for William Rufus King who was born and raised in North Carolina and was the Vice President when it was formed so I don't know what that has to do with England. The former flag had a crown but it's name wasn't anything to do with England. The flag now has Martin Luther King, Jr. because it was renamed to honor him instead of slave owning William.