Episode Discussion: TFGH

[ulkis]

Jake(son) (to Liz): It's not your fault I'm still in the dark about who I am.

 

Me: Oy, I am not ready for 3-6 months of this.

 

My reaction was a heavy sigh.

 

Yeah, LLC gave a good performance, but I was exasperated at Olivia. She shouldn't've slept with Julian and she definitely shouldn't've kept publicly repeating her secret over and over. If Julian actually needs clarification on what they're talking about I have no words.

 

Ellie deserves better. Blah.

[Bringonthedrama]

 

Using this logic, that would mean that Jason Morgan, for the past 20-odd years, when Burton was playing him, was raped by Robin, Cujo, SWSNBN, Liz and Sam.

 

He was brain-damaged and had NO memories of being Jason Quartermaine. And remained brain-damaged all these years.

 

 

I disagree. It's not even similar. Stavros blackmailed and forced Laura to marry him and then raped her. She didn't consent to marry him. Nor did she consent to having sex with him. Not the same, not even shades.

Yeah, but I said if he had all the information. Jason was brain-damaged all those years and has no memories BUT he had the facts about who he was as soon as he woke up after the accident. His parents were doctors in that hospital! He saw pictures of himself with his family, understood Emily was his sister, AJ was his brother,etc. Right now Liz knows all that  while Jake knows nothing. She's not allowing him to have the opportunity to choose her while knowing he has a wife and son close by. So because of all the information being kept from him, it's not informed consent. Although legally speaking it probably can't be defined as rape, either. 

Basically, I agree with jsbt. There's also the excellent point that as his nurse, she held a position of respect and trust at a vulnerable time, and is taking advantage of that. 

[ulkis]

It's not really that simple. I know a lot of people have been saying that, but it's not so cut and dry. Was Olivia an idiot for sleeping with a known mobster? Hell, yeah. But should she just throw up her hands and go, "well, I made my mistake, guess my baby should suffer for it?"

 

That I support, but her blabbing her secret in public, more than once, has made me lost all sympathy for her at this point.

[Oracle42]

Whether or not Steve had hung around, Ron would've absolutely gone forward with McBain and Sam had the character not been taken from him.

 

The schadenfreude when RC lost McBain and Todd was delicious

[TeeVee329]

So...what was the point of the Maxie/Spinelli/Ellie/Nathan quad quagmire?

 

Duke and Anna gave me some feels, but it's too little, too late.

[dubbel zout]

I think a part of Nikolas still blames Jason for getting Emily killed, and he so he feels that his cousin, Sam, should be in a happy relationship with a safe doctor.  So on some level, I get Nikolas' motivation to keep Sam away from him.

 

Except Sam was happy with Jason. Nik can blame Jason all he wants for Emily's death, but he shouldn't take out that anger on Sam, which is what he's doing by not telling her Jason is alive. 

 

People were up in arms about that

 

One big reason people were up in arms about Rapemance is because Todd had participated in a vicious gang rape of Marty. (At that point, the Two Todds story didn't exist.) Marty was falling in love with her rapist, and there was no way you could whitewash her rape as seduction, the way they did Luke and Laura at the time. The Liz/Jakeson situation is very, very different from that.

Edited May 6, 2015 by dubbel zout

[FilmTVGeek80]

That I support, but her blabbing her secret in public, more than once, has made me lost all sympathy for her at this point.

 

That I get. For fuck's sake, they were doing it today. They were talking about it in front of Sam and Patrick. Granted, Sam and Patrick were pretty far behind them and Ned and Olivia were "whispering", but still keep your lips zipped about such an important secret until you're completely in private. 

 

Honestly, if I were Olivia, I wouldn't have bothered reasoning with Sam. Ned's got access to Q money. Just hightail it out of PC as fast as your legs can carry you.

 

 

The Liz/Jakeson situation is very, very different from that.

 

The situations are a bit different, and yeah Liz isn't Jason's former rapist, but it still matches the situation fairly closely. People are saying it can't possibly be rape because "Jake" might willingly sleep with Liz. But that's the same thing with Marty/Todd/Victor situation. She willingly slept with him, but it wasn't with informed consent because she had no memories and didn't know of their past.

Edited May 6, 2015 by FilmTVGeek80

[Francie]

So...what was the point of the Maxie/Spinelli/Ellie/Nathan quad quagmire?

 

I seriously think it all had to do with getting Bradford back to fill out the roster of the Nurses Ball.

 

And, as a smaller benefit, they thought it would give the "great" love story of Maxie and Wooden One a bump in the road. 

[TeeVee329]

Except Sam was happy with Jason. Nik can blame Jason all he wants for Emily's death, but he shouldn't take out that anger on Sam, which is what he's doing by not telling her Jason is alive.

 

Also, after all the years it was ignored under Guza, Sam and Nikolas' familial relationship just doesn't ring true to me.  So all his whining about wanting to protect Sam or whatever doesn't work.

[rur]

A couple of things I got from today: 

First, the NB must have been really pitiful if everyone's leaving but lingering and it's still apparently quite a while until midnight. (Do writers ever think about these things?) 

 

Anna, (begin sarcasm font) no one will think anything's odd about two people -- who want to disappear -- in evening wear taking a midnight boat ride to another country. You can't be that overcome by Duke's profession of love. (end sarcasm font) Go home and change. Pick up an extra pair of undies.

 

The other day we got flashbacks of The Tango. Are we now going to get flashbacks of the last time Duke and Anna planned to meet at the docks to get out of town (and if I remember correctly, go into witness protection together along with Robin)? That didn't turn out too well. I was really surprised Anna didn't have some kind of reaction to Duke's Plan today. 

 

I had kind of stopped liking Ian Buchanan because he was playing Duke as having a broomstick up his . . . nether regions. Today, someone took out the broomstick and he became alive. Maybe if he'd actually been able to play a character -- with strengths and flaws -- for the last year there wouldn't be a need to kill him off.  There are other, newer folks that could have been given the GH home version instead of him. 

[Oracle42]

So...what was the point of the Maxie/Spinelli/Ellie/Nathan quad quagmire?

 

Nathan and Maxie are boring. They need a ton of outside obstacles because they are inherently uninteresting. Nobody ever mentions Nate without talking about his looks because there's no intelligence or guile or soul to the character. 

Nathan reminds me so much of GV's dim-wtted Lucky - though even GV managed not to read his lines like a middle schooler in his first play.

 

I want to like Maxie but I think she's ill-matched with RP's wooden, boring Nate. I don't think he's necessarily the worst actor GH has ever had but most of the other actors have charisma, screen presence or spark and chemistry with their co-stars - Nate just has abs

Edited May 9, 2015 by Oracle42

[Harmony233]

Nathan and Maxie are boring. They need a ton of outside obstacles because they are inherently uninteresting. Nobody ever mentions Nate without talking about his looks because there's no intelligence or guile or soul to the character. 

Nathan reminds me so much of GV's dim-wtted Lucky. I want to like Maxie but I think she's ill-matched with RP's wooden, boring Nate

Apperantely RC claimed that nathan and maxie were soulmates in last weeks SOD.Between Lucas and Brad getting engaged where is the actual couples who actually go through crap to be together.RC has no clue how to write couples at all.

[jsbt]

Jake is a fully functioning human being who can give or deny his consent to sex.  Period.  That is ultimately what it all comes down to.

 

Not when the man has amnesia and has no idea his wife and child are down the street. His ex-girlfriend is keeping his identity from him so she can have him for herself. If Jason was in his right mind, he would never choose that. Liz made the choice for him.

[Lillybee]

It looks like Spin and Ellie are heading back to Portland. I wouldn't mind keeping Spin if we could keep Ellie, I really like her.

[TeeVee329]

Not when the man has amnesia and has no idea his wife and child are down the street. His ex-girlfriend is keeping his identity from him so she can have him for herself. If Jason was in his right mind, he would never choose that. Liz made the choice for him.

 

I liked the phrasing you used earlier today, jsbt, that Liz is in a position of power.  

[Lillybee]

Both Liz and Olivia need to woman up and start telling the truth.

[Francie]

This sums up how I feel about this Liz/Jason/Sam quagmire:

 

 

Carry on.

[OnceSane]

Ugh. Just a whole lotta ugh.

[LeftPhalange]

I'll be at my table for one enjoying the Ellie/Spin reunion. I'm pleasantly surprised that Ron didn't drag this out for seven more months like he usually does. Maxie deserves to end up with that fucking talking tree. Will this couple be allowed to be happy for at least three months or will Ron immediately come up with more contrived drama to prop this insipid pairing and keep his favorite useless block of wood afloat? I'm betting on the latter. I continue to be amazed by how little the talking tree contributes to the show considering how much screen time he gets.

 

I didn't appreciate Julian talking shit about Jordan. Dude, you're an incompetent joke of a mobster who spends more time in the mirror than Alexis and Sam combined. STFU.

 

Jakeson and Liez are nauseating. I would much prefer for that leaking bag of trash stalker nurse to remain off screen until it's time for her to be exposed, I don't think I can deal with 4352 months of her lying nasty stank ass.

 

I'm getting whore-y vibes from Greenlee.

Edited May 6, 2015 by LeftPhalange

[Francie]

I didn't appreciate Julian talking shit about Jordan. Dude, you're an incompetent joke of a mobster who spends more time in the mirror than Alexis and Sam and Maxie and Lulu and Anna and that new woman brought on for Dante to have an affair with combined. STFU. 

 

Fixed that for you.  Really, the only person we need to leave out is Carly. But that's in part because I think her mirror talks to her.

[Turtle]

Is Jake- a person who technically does not exist, but as an amnesiac fragmented part of Jason Quartermaine - able to give consent? No. Because he doesn't recognize that he ever was Jason Quartermaine or Jason Morgan.

 

 

Jake does exist - he's right there and we can all see him.  Jake has lost his memory, but he is not mentally incompetent and therefore unable to give consent.  He's a grown man who is able to decide who he does and does not want to sleep with.  Telling him "Hey, you're Jason" isn't going to change the fact that he wants to sleep with Liz.  Our memories and life experiences are what make us who we are; Jake lost all that, so what he does and says and wants now is a reflection of who he is *now*.  He isn't Jason Morgan or Jason Quartermaine anymore, because he doesn't share any of those memories.  Personality wise, he's starting pretty much from scratch.  No fact of identity, without the memories and feelings and whatnot that belong to that fact, will change who he is today.  And he is competent to make decisions, stupid as they may be.

 

If Liz didn't know he was Jason, but only knew he had amnesia, would there be any question of rape?  To me, her being with him while keeping it from him is shitty, and mean, and definitely going to blow up in her face, but it's not criminal.  

 

I'm glad Maxie and Nathan are back together, and I hope Spinelli disappears, although I do like Ellie.

[TeeVee329]

If Liz didn't know he was Jason, but only knew he had amnesia, would there be any question of rape?  To me, her being with him while keeping it from him is shitty, and mean, and definitely going to blow up in her face, but it's not criminal.  

 

But it's Liz knowing and not saying anything, the position of power that creates, that asks the "is this rape?" question, not the amnesia itself.

[OnceSane]

I really hope that tomorrow Sam says to Julian "You're Olivia's baby daddy. Deuces!" and bounces.

[ulkis]

She shouldn't even need to though, really. Julian should figure this out immediately. Hell, the Dumbshit twins should get it.

[tveyeonyou]

Why are there so many songs about rainbows?

 

and what's on the other side?

 

 (Yes, GH has made me slightly loopy. Why do you ask?)

 

Also,

Why does the sun go on shining?

Why does the sea rush to shore?

Don't they know, it's the end of the world?

It ended when Ron took the rein*.

 

*because reign is for Kings and reins are for horses, Ron will never be worthy of a Royal title.

Just joining you on the GH Loopy-Train ulkis , I think it may stop at The Barge.

 

PS: Why? Why are murdering murderers who murder the focus of a soap opera about a hospital? Why do I think there is an actual answer to any of our questions? And in case you didn't hear me Ron, piss off, fuck you, stop stop stop!!! (said in the screeching whiny voice of Dawn Summers from BuffyTVS yelling get out get out get out!!! )

[dubbel zout]

How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?

[Turtle]

.

 

But it's Liz knowing and not saying anything, the position of power that creates, that asks the "is this rape?" question, not the amnesia itself.

 

 

I guess that's the part I'm not getting - how does what *Liz* knows affect whether Jake can give consent?  Obviously, great minds can differ on this, and it's a sensitive topic.  I'm on the side of not-rape-but-still-totally-terrible. 

[General Days]

But it's Liz knowing and not saying anything, the position of power that creates, that asks the "is this rape?" question, not the amnesia itself.

 

Okay, time for hypothetical people. John is married to Mary. He meets Sue and likes what he sees, so he lets Sue think he's a single man. Sue likes what she sees too, and goes to bed with John. Is John raping Sue? If he occasionally sleeps with his wife Mary, too, who is ignorant of his affair with Sue, is he also raping Mary? No. He's lying to and manipulating both women, as well as violating their trust, but he's not raping them, despite the fact that he has the power of knowledge on his side.

What Liz is doing is gross and disgusting, but there are a lot of gross and disgusting things other than rape, which is also gross and disgusting.

 

How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?​

 

 

With a compact mirror?

Edited May 6, 2015 by General Days

[TeeVee329]

Okay, time for hypothetical people. John is married to Mary. He meets Sue and likes what he sees, so he lets Sue think he's a single man. Sue likes what she sees too, and goes to bed with John. Is John raping Sue? If he occasionally sleeps with his wife Mary, too, who is ignorant of his affair with Sue, is he also raping Mary? No. He's lying to and manipulating both women, as well as violating their trust, but he's not raping them, despite the fact that he has the power of knowledge on his side.

 

The way I see it, in those cases, John is withholding information about himself, he's not withholding information about Sue or Mary, information Sue or Mary don't know due to brain injury or mental illness.

 

I look at Ron's pattern.  VicTodd knew Marty would never sleep with him if she didn't have amnesia.  Ford knew Jessica would never sleep with him if she hadn't been mentally ill and thinking she was a virginal teenager.  Liz knows that Jason would, at the very least, put on the brakes and sort it all out before sleeping with her if he knew who he really was.

 

Is it rape?  I dunno, but I can see how the situation could prompt the question.  At minimum, it is morally heinous, especially since Liz is showing almost no hesitation.

Edited May 6, 2015 by TeeVee329

[HeatLifer]

"Patrick, this is none of your business." LMAO. I'll miss you, Ned.

Remember when Patrick had a personality? His old self would have a shitload of issues with Julian.

[General Days]

"Patrick, this is none of your business." LMAO. I'll miss you, Ned.

Remember when Patrick had a personality? His old self would have a shitload of issues with Julian.

 

I kept waiting for Patrick to switch sides and back up Olivia. He had so many issues with Robin's friendships with Sonny and Jason (especially, iirc, after Sonny shot Robin, when Emma was in the house). 

[WendyCR72]

Okay, time for hypothetical people. John is married to Mary. He meets Sue and likes what he sees, so he lets Sue think he's a single man. Sue likes what she sees too, and goes to bed with John. Is John raping Sue? If he occasionally sleeps with his wife Mary, too, who is ignorant of his affair with Sue, is he also raping Mary?

 

But John, Mary, and Sue know who they are, at the very least, even if John is a morally reprehensible person. This is not the case with Jake. And since Liz knows his identity and is now actively deceiving him and keeping vital information from Jake to make a decision based on all the facts, it may not be rape in the strictest sense, just as it may not be with hypotheticals, but it's damned disgusting, morally shady, and Liz deserves the fallout when it eventually spills out...and I fear she'll skate again.

 

So, the situations are a bit different from where I sit.

[KerleyQ]

Nathan and Maxie are boring. They need a ton of outside obstacles because they are inherently uninteresting. Nobody ever mentions Nate without talking about his looks because there's no intelligence or guile or soul to the character. 

Nathan reminds me so much of GV's dim-wtted Lucky - though even GV managed not to read his lines like a middle schooler in his first play.

 

I want to like Maxie but I think she's ill-matched with RP's wooden, boring Nate

I don't think he's necessarily the worst actor GH has ever had but most of the other actors have charisma, screen presence or spark and chemistry with their co-stars - Nate just has abs

 

Don't forget, he speaks French! 

 

.I guess that's the part I'm not getting - how does what *Liz* knows affect whether Jake can give consent?  Obviously, great minds can differ on this, and it's a sensitive topic.  I'm on the side of not-rape-but-still-totally-terrible. 

 

I'm on the same side.  I love Liz, I hate the bus she's being tied down under and how many times it's likely to run over her before the year is up, but I don't see rape.  We've seen soap characters keep pertinent information (sometimes about themselves, sometimes about something that affects the person they want to sleep with) to themselves in order to sleep with the person they desire.  It's despicable, yes, but it's not rape.  When the person in question is known to be mentally ill (like Ron's pet DID cases), that turns it into an issue where the person isn't able to give consent.  Jake/Jason doesn't have a mental illness.  He's clearly very into Liz and wants to have sex with her.  My guess is, even if he knew who he was, that desire wouldn't go away (just like it didn't go away when he was presented with his "wife" Greenlee), until that rush of memories comes back to him, along with the related emotions.  The issue here is her not telling him who he is and letting the chips fall where they may (which, again, could likely still be him wanting to sleep with her, if he doesn't feel those memories after she tells him who he is), not whether he can consent.  

[HeatLifer]

I kept waiting for Patrick to switch sides and back up Olivia. He had so many issues with Robin's friendships with Sonny and Jason (especially, iirc, after Sonny shot Robin, when Emma was in the house).

Exactly. And he always shared his thoughts. He's yelled at Robin. He's ranted at Robin. But not with Sam! It's all, "Don't you guys know how this affects Sam?" Sam/Patrick are a joke, I'm sorry. Nothing about them is based in any type of reality.

[LeftPhalange]

What was the point of making the talking tree a fake Cassadine? He hasn't had a single bonding moment with any of them. He's had about two scenes with Alexis and that's about it.

 

I want Liez to pay but I don't really think she has anything to loose at this point. I doubt Ron will have her loose her nurse's license. Lucky is gone. Monica is in the basement. Jason won't do anything. Sam might be allowed to get mad for an episode but then will be expected to get over it. Carly will berate her but Liez doesn't care about her opinion and they don't share many scenes anyway. Nik won't hate her. Ric might be allowed to call her out but she won't care about his opinion of her either. What's left?

[HeatLifer]

What was the point of making the talking tree a fake Cassadine? He hasn't had a single bonding moment with any of them. He's had about two scenes with Alexis and that's about it.

I want Liez to pay but I don't really think she has anything to loose at this point. I doubt Ron will have her loose her nurse's license. Lucky is gone. Monica is in the basement. Jason won't do anything. Sam might be allowed to get mad for an episode but then will be expected to get over it. Carly will berate her but Liez doesn't care about her opinion and they don't share many scenes anyway. Nik won't hate her. Ric might be allowed to call her out but she won't care about his opinion of her either. What's left?

If Liz loses Jason, she's lost.

[WendyCR72]

If Liz loses Jason, she's lost.

 

She won't. He'll pat her on the head. At least, that's the pattern, so why expect anything different?

[HeatLifer]

She won't. He'll pat her on the head. At least, that's the pattern, so why expect anything different?

I mean, romantically.

[TeeVee329]

I want Liez to pay but I don't really think she has anything to loose at this point. I doubt Ron will have her loose her nurse's license. Lucky is gone. Monica is in the basement. Jason won't do anything. Sam might be allowed to get mad for an episode but then will be expected to get over it. Carly will berate her but Liez doesn't care about her opinion and they don't share many scenes anyway. Nik won't hate her. Ric might be allowed to call her out but she won't care about his opinion of her either. What's left?

 

Maybe Jason and Sam will sue for custody of the baby she's totally gonna be pregnant with by the time the reveal comes.

[One Tough Cookie]

I didn't appreciate Julian talking shit about Jordan. Dude, you're an incompetent joke of a mobster who spends more time in the mirror than Alexis and Sam combined. STFU.

 

 

Between this and referring to Plywood as the Talking Tree, I totally spewed my evening cocktail all over my screen!

[LeftPhalange]

Maybe Jason and Sam will sue for custody of the baby she's totally gonna be pregnant with by the time the reveal comes.

 

Ew. Yuck. Gross. Why can't anyone in PC ever use condoms and birth control. Men who have sex with Liez should especially be taking some precautions.

Edited May 6, 2015 by LeftPhalange

[Jazzy24]

Maybe Jason and Sam will sue for custody of the baby she's totally gonna be pregnant with by the time the reveal comes.

Keep Sam out of it ugh.

[Chairperson Meow]

I have but two wishes for this show:

All babies for the next few years are tocks (besides Micheal and Sabrina because that's going to be a cute baby.) And no more rape stories.

That's not too much to ask, is it?

[WendyCR72]

Oh, you know Ron won't resist Liz getting knocked up, if just to make Jake's decision (once he knows he is Jason) somewhat "equal". Which, puke. Liz doesn't need another spawn. She needs tubal ligation. Stat.

[peachmangosteen]

However, it's icky and gross and close enough to rape to give me the heebies-jeebies. 

 

Yea, this. It's not technically rape, but's it's really gross and it's a violation. Liz really is sociopathic at this point. She needs help.

 

I fast forwarded most of this ep. So boring.

Edited May 6, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Cassiopeia]

Whenever I'm having a bad day, I YouTube the clip of Fonduke shooting Jasus in the back and then kicking his body into the harbor and it instantly cheers me up.

Liason 10/22/12 - Jason Is Shot By Duke: http://youtu.be/EwhZg0ZMMXs

 

The internet is a wonderful thing.

[Bishop]

Except Sam was happy with Jason. Nik can blame Jason all he wants for Emily's death, but he shouldn't take out that anger on Sam, which is what he's doing by not telling her Jason is alive. 

I agree, but that's not going to stop Nikolas from wanting to keep Sam away from Jason and his dangerous life.  He has no right to make that decision for her, but I get why he would try to do it.

 

I had kind of stopped liking Ian Buchanan because he was playing Duke as having a broomstick up his . . . nether regions. Today, someone took out the broomstick and he became alive. 

Duke was good today, and I am happy to see him want Anna more than revenge or Julian.  I was also happy to hear him call off the hit, but I agree that he seemed to come alive today than he has in a very long time.  There was some real passion and emotion in his scenes with Anna.

 

Not when the man has amnesia and has no idea his wife and child are down the street. His ex-girlfriend is keeping his identity from him so she can have him for herself. If Jason was in his right mind, he would never choose that. Liz made the choice for him.

Yes she is but she's not drugging him or dragging him by gunpoint.  She is lying and deceiving him, and that is amoral and wrong in all sorts of ways, but Jake can still say "no."  My issue with Jake is that the idiot has been having very revealing flashes of memory of Sam, and he has done NOTHING to investigate why he is having them.  So how can I feel sorry for him that he doesn't have his life back when he doesn't even follow up on the clues he IS getting?

 

Elizabeth is still dead wrong for what she is doing, and she deserves all the fallout.  Her hypocrisy was out in full force.  She's sitting there with Jake openly criticizing Ric for doing whatever he wanted just to get her at any cost.  Hello?  Is she listening to herself?  Pot meet kettle.

[Oracle42]

It turns out that Duke/Anna can be compelling when IB is actually given something to play that makes actual sense and is true to fucking character.
 

I'm kind of pissed right now.

 

 

[General Days]

What was the point of making the talking tree a fake Cassadine? He hasn't had a single bonding moment with any of them. He's had about two scenes with Alexis and that's about it.

 

I want Liez to pay but I don't really think she has anything to loose at this point. I doubt Ron will have her loose her nurse's license. Lucky is gone. Monica is in the basement. Jason won't do anything. Sam might be allowed to get mad for an episode but then will be expected to get over it. Carly will berate her but Liez doesn't care about her opinion and they don't share many scenes anyway. Nik won't hate her. Ric might be allowed to call her out but she won't care about his opinion of her either. What's left?

 

I wish Nathan had been a Cassadine (and was then written to have something to do with the family).

Did you all notice, today, during Jake and Liz's second sandwich date, he was saying that it was even better than their first sandwich date. "Maybe it's the fact that the odds are against anybody ringing your doorbell and coming in and claiming that their my wife, or your dead husband, or I don't know…"

For a second, I was like, "Son of a bitch, they retcon-killed Lucky." Then I realized it was just piss-poor dialogue.

 

I have but two wishes for this show:

All babies for the next few years are tocks (besides Micheal and Sabrina because that's going to be a cute baby.) And no more rape stories.

That's not too much to ask, is it?

 

What are tocks? Amen to no more rape stories, or rape-y stories, or stories we can analogize with rape, or the like.

I have to say, I hate Becky's storyline, but her performance is stellar. She really brought the crazy eyes with her, "Now I have a chance at happiness," nonsense to Nik, and she showed guilt, during some of her exchanges today, with Jake. I don't like what the show is doing to the character, Elizabeth, but I appreciate that Becky has a chance to shine.

Which regime tried to fire Becky only to be shot down by the fans -- Guza, or Valentini/Carlivati?

Edited May 6, 2015 by General Days

[WendyCR72]

What are tocks?

 

Babies that don't/won't make it to term or die post birth.