S05.E02: The Price

[Amerilla]

David is the made up name for Storybrooke (like Ruby or Mary Margaret), and David/James's true real name remains unknown.

 

In "Tiny," back S2, they establish that David's EF name was also David. 

 

Leroy: So let me get this straight. You got a twin brother?
David Nolan: Yeah.
Leroy: Whose name is James?
David Nolan: Right.
Leroy: But *your* name is James.
David Nolan: No, actually it's not.
Leroy: Charming, then?
Mary Margaret Blanchard: No, that's the nickname I gave him.
Leroy: Hey, hold on, what the hell *is* your name?
David Nolan: David.
Leroy: Your cursed name?
David Nolan: My real name.
Leroy: What, you're David, James and Charming, and David's like a middle name?
David Nolan: No, it's my name name!
Leroy: You know, whatever, I'll call you whatever I damn well please! That OK?
David Nolan: Sure, Leroy.

[Francie]

In "Tiny," back S2, they establish that David's EF name was also David. 

 

Leroy: So let me get this straight. You got a twin brother?

David Nolan: Yeah.

Leroy: Whose name is James?

David Nolan: Right.

Leroy: But *your* name is James.

David Nolan: No, actually it's not.

Leroy: Charming, then?

Mary Margaret Blanchard: No, that's the nickname I gave him.

Leroy: Hey, hold on, what the hell *is* your name?

David Nolan: David.

Leroy: Your cursed name?

David Nolan: My real name.

Leroy: What, you're David, James and Charming, and David's like a middle name?

David Nolan: No, it's my name name!

Leroy: You know, whatever, I'll call you whatever I damn well please! That OK?

David Nolan: Sure, Leroy.

Thanks! So, they went nowhere with that not knowing his name thing.

 

See, I said I was enjoying this season more than I had 2 through 4. I totally missed that!

[RadioGirl27]

 

I hate that no one calls her Snow anymore.  It'd be one thing if Snow White was simply a nickname and her real name really was Mary Margaret but that's not the case.  One is her name and the other was given to her when she was cursed for 28 years.  No matter how much she loves Regina you'd think she'd still prefer to be called by her actual name

I prefer Mary Margaret, because that person is not Snow White. The real Snow White died somewhere between the first and the second half of season 2 and this character is just her double.

Really, the difference between season 1 Snow White and seasons 3-4-5 Mary Margaret is so big that it seems like a different character.

[Camera One]

The problem with the writer's tweet is that I don't buy from the onscreen that Emma "loves" the power too much.  As others have mentioned, she already had power. Why was she "liking" being able to bring Robin back from certain death when she was so quick to understand that she had to let Neal die and there's nothing that can be done about it?  And then in the broader picture, didn't the writers say with "Heart of Gold" that if you steal for yourself, it's bad, but if you steal for someone else, you're a hero?  But this doesn't apply to Dark Emma?  Shouldn't her intentions when using dark magic exonerate in some way according to the morality of this show?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Camera One

[Mathius]

I prefer Mary Margaret, because that person is not Snow White. The real Snow White died somewhere between the first and the second half of season 2 and this character is just her double.

Really, the difference between season 1 Snow White and seasons 3-4-5 Mary Margaret is so big that it seems like a different character.

 

No, she died during the second half of Season 2, specifically in 2x15, titled ironically enough "The Queen is Dead".

[kili]

I'm not about to defend Rumple, especially the one from season 4. But in 112, when we saw the TLK not work for Rumbelle, Rumple needed to keep his power because he needed to reach Bae. It didn't mean he didn't love Belle, he just also loved Bae (I'm still only talking about 112. S4 Rumple is a shitstain who DOES love power more than love). Likewise, we don't know why Dark Swan is doing what she's doing.

I can kind of see where Rumple was going with his rejection of the TLK (he loved his son too and felt he needed his powers to reach him).  I can understand that Storybook Dark Swan might need her powers for some end game that she is running. The big problem I have with the failed TLK is the one in Camelot. Emma isn't evil there. We've just had an episode where it was emphasized that she had a choice about being evil. She could fight it.  But, in the very next episode, when she is given the opportunity to TLK her evil curse away, she chooses power over love. She has no reason for keeping the power except that she wants it.

 

Emma is no longer choosing to take on the Dark One to save the ones she loves. She's actively chosen to be the Dark One because she likes it. She's content to see the daily anguish in the faces of her son, her parents and her boyfriend because she enjoys being powerful. She is fully cognizant of the fact that it may make her eventually harm them (to emphasize, we are shown Rumple telling her that she needs to get rid of them because they hamper her), but the power is more important to her.

 

I was hoping that Emma would reject trying a TLK because she did not want to untether the Darkness, but she purposely chooses to be the Dark One instead. All the Dark things she does after that scene in Camelot are now her choice.

 

This is how I feel about David. David's not his name! It's his twin's (or was he just a droppelganger) -- the person whose identity he took when he became the prince and killed the dragon way back in season 1.

David is his real name. Prince James was his brother.

[chaifan]

Storybrooke people end up in Camelot, and they get put up in a castle and thrown a ball. Camelot people end up in Storybrooke, and they get put up in... tents in a field??? Seriously? Who is staying at Granny's? There aren't 3 or 4 extra bedrooms (or even a futon) at Regina's house to even take in Arthur and Gwen (and maybe a lady in waiting or two)? Nice to know that there's a surplus of camping gear in Storybrooke, though. geesh. horrible hosts.

[granderobino]

Okay I went to last 3 pages of posts and saw no mention of this so maybe I'm off base here but anybody else make the Dopey = Merlin connection.

[Rumsy4]

Why was she "liking" being able to bring Robin back from certain death when she was so quick to understand that she had to let Neal die and there's nothing that can be done about it?

Not just that. Apparently the Price of Neal's life for Rumple's life could have been waived if the Nevengers had all held hands GotG-style. Dead is not Dead, except in the case of Neal.

[Hookian]

Rumbelle's kiss is canon, tweets are not. We clearly saw Rumple start to be cured by the curse when Belle was kissing him and he had to pull away from the kiss. In neither attempt at a TLK this episode did Emma get cured even a little bit. In fact, she turned more scaly after the first one. You cannot tell me that Emma during the first kiss wanted the Dark One powers more than Rumple did in his heyday. 

 

Did you not see the scene between Emma and Rumple? It explained why it failed. It's because Emma liked the power. It had nothing to do with Hook/Emma not being TL which they are. They had that scene explain to the audience that basically a CS TLK can still happen but it has to happen when Emma chooses to want love over power. Rumbelle kiss was the first instance of this and it stopped once he realized he was losing his power. Nothing has been ruined.

[Last Time Lord]

I biggest issue with the episode was the Fury. It just did not look very believable at all

 

At the end, when Head!Rumple was talking to Emma about how she could be the Dark One to (and I quote) "snuff out the light" by re-uniting the Dark One Dagger with Excalibur, well, upon hearing that, Yzma's cut song of the same name from The Emperor's New Groove (back when the movie was titled Kingdom Of The Sun and had an entirely different story) immediately popped into my head.

 

So, I am really hoping they are foreshadowing Yzma, especially if she's going to be more like how she was intended to be presented prior to Kingdom Of The Sun becoming Emperor's New Groove.

[Mari]

The problem with the writer's tweet is that I don't buy from the onscreen that Emma "loves" the power too much.  As others have mentioned, she already had power. Why was she "liking" being able to bring Robin back from certain death when she was so quick to understand that she had to let Neal die and there's nothing that can be done about it?  And then in the broader picture, didn't the writers say with "Heart of Gold" that if you steal for yourself, it's bad, but if you steal for someone else, you're a hero?  But this doesn't apply to Dark Emma?  Shouldn't her intentions when using dark magic exonerate in some way according to the morality of this show?

I agree.

Wouldn't it have made more sense for them to say that it didn't work in Camelot because the curse was only partly complete, and needed to fully manifest before it could be cured, and then whatever happened in Camelot made Emma afraid to give up the control/power in Storybrooke?

[Francie]

Okay I went to last 3 pages of posts and saw no mention of this so maybe I'm off base here but anybody else make the Dopey = Merlin connection.

Yep. I buried that point at the very end of my post. Or at least that they are in the same predicament. I doubt that they are one and the same person, though. I think it's more likely that the usher from Episode 1 will be Merlin.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Francie

[Curio]

From what I understood, taking out Excalibur wouldn't un-Dark One Emma. It would make her even more dangerous. So, yeah, I understand why Merlin wouldn't want that.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. That scene was the part of the episode where the cold meds really started to kick in, so I probably zoned out during the explanation.

 

I can understand that Storybook Dark Swan might need her powers for some end game that she is running. The big problem I have with the failed TLK is the one in Camelot.

 

I'm actually okay with the TLK not working in Camelot. (I didn't even catch that Emma was attempting a TLK in that scene until I read some of the comments here. Damn cold meds.) I read that scene as Emma really enjoying the more powerful magic she's never had before, and in that quick moment, she tried to kiss Hook because it scared her how much she liked that power. But I didn't interpret it as Emma liking the power more than her True Love for Hook or any of her family, just that she likes the power just as much. And that's dangerous. Hook also pulled away from her kiss in Camelot, so that might have had something to do with it.

 

Okay I went to last 3 pages of posts and saw no mention of this so maybe I'm off base here but anybody else make the Dopey = Merlin connection.

 

Dopey turning into a tree definitely makes me think Merlin had something to do with casting this new curse and he's using Emma as a pawn. Emma looked pained when she couldn't tell Hook what happened in Camelot, like something was forcing her from not telling him. 

Edited October 5, 2015 by Curio

[Mari]

Was it Merlin, or was it whoever/whatever turned Merlin into a tree? Because I agree they're related, but am still hoping Merlin isn't an outright bad guy.

[CatMack]

We've been told the True Love can conquer anything. One can transcend realms, wake their near dead and stop the Darkest Curse there has ever been. True Loves happily travel to the ends of the universe to find their True Love. They are willing to sacrifice their very lives like Anna did for Elsa.

 

How can it be True Love if they want power more than Love? 

 

I can accept that when they have lost all memory of their loved ones, TLK does not work. But how an I accept full memories and still choosing power over Love? Maybe I've watched to many sappy movies and television shows where somebody has to learn that there is more to life than spending all your time being a powerful CEO. That sometimes you need to take a moment and attend your child's recital.

 

This show has told us that True Love is a wonderful and powerful thing. Now it is trying to tell us that it is fine if you permanently put your True Love in second place behind your own selfish desire. That is not what True Love was advertised as in the first year. 

 

I can believe that Hook and Belle truly love their loved ones....I don't believe that Emma and Rumple truly love them back. They firmly love other things more and are not willing to sacrifice them for the ones they love (they do love them, just not to the level of True Love).

 

 

The problem with the writer's tweet is that I don't buy from the onscreen that Emma "loves" the power too much.  As others have mentioned, she already had power. Why was she "liking" being able to bring Robin back from certain death when she was so quick to understand that she had to let Neal die and there's nothing that can be done about it?  And then in the broader picture, didn't the writers say with "Heart of Gold" that if you steal for yourself, it's bad, but if you steal for someone else, you're a hero?  But this doesn't apply to Dark Emma?  Shouldn't her intentions when using dark magic exonerate in some way according to the morality of this show?

 

When they started talking about the "Darkness" of the Dark One curse like it was an actual entity, I was worried they were going to use that to basically absolve Rumple of his misdeeds.  Thankfully they haven't done that (yet).  What they're portraying on screen is more of a corruption.  I don't think it really fits with how we saw Rumples transition, but whatever, I can handwave that (he didn't fight it, he wanted the power immediately, etc).  Ultimately it's a curse.  And a curse should have consequences.  This particular curse corrupting someone, even if they try to fight it, in a way that makes achieving a real true loves kiss difficult is actually something I'm fine with.  Yes, we hear a lot about TLK being able to break any curse, but if that were literally true there would be no drama ever about anything because everything could be solved with a kiss.  They can say it all they want, we've never actually seen TLK kiss being able to break every curse.  This particular curse, the Dark One curse, corrupts the person afflicted with it.  It makes just as much sense that TLK wouldn't work on someone who's very soul has been corrupted by the darkest darkness as TLK not working on someone with memory loss (and even that isn't a hard and fast rule since Regina was able to TLK Henry when he had no memory of her being his mom).

 

I don't want to try to defend this as a flawless storytelling choice.  There are all kinds of consistency issues in virtually every aspect of this show and they are definitely present in this one.  But just because I think they're doing a bad job telling Regina's redemption story doesn't mean they aren't obviously trying to tell her redemption story and I wouldn't try to claim otherwise.  They went out of their way to state that the failed TLK didn't mean Emma/Hook aren't true loves.  You originally said that this episode confirmed they weren't true loves and that's demonstrably false.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

The problem is, this is supposed to be fun and entertaining for me, and I'm finding more and more that it just makes me angry, instead. Even things I'm enjoying are starting to be tainted by scenes and events I find ridiculous or horrifying. And there's almost no actual justice on the show.

I was honestly punching pillows while watching this episode. Part of me really wants to enjoy it, but I don't seem to have the talent of "turning my brain off". I can let a lot of stuff go by and I can handwave quiet a bit. But if the base material isn't compelling or entertaining enough, the nitpicks and inconsistencies stick out like sore thumbs. If you're going to have nonsensical plot points, then you need to back it up with really good story to compensate. This episode didn't do that for me.

 

This episode was awful. AWFUL.

100% agree. I think it highlighted everything that's wrong with the show. Unfortunately, I'm sure A&E will believe it was a hit because of all the positive feedback coming from Evil Regals.

 

 

I can understand that Storybook Dark Swan might need her powers for some end game that she is running. The big problem I have with the failed TLK is the one in Camelot.

Maybe the kiss has to be initiated by the person who isn't cursed? That's how it always was in the past. Either that or Emma just wasn't attempting a TLK. You know I wish this show would outline better what a TLK is and when you can do it. They tried to do it in this episode with Belle, but there's more to it than what was said.

 

 

(and even that isn't a hard and fast rule since Regina was able to TLK Henry when he had no memory of her being his mom)

Not to be nitpicky, but I believe he did have his memories. He touched the book prior to that and the TLK is what restored the memories of the Missing Year for everyone else.

 

 

Oh, and Regina not knowing how to dance? Pure crap.

Well considering her mother knew how to dance, and she was just the miller's daughter. Not even royalty.

 

So if Belle knew that after her failed TLK that Rumple forever chose power over love, why didn't it bother her every time they kissed after that? She married him knowing he loved his power more than her. Yet somehow she was totally shocked about the gauntlet thing.

Edited October 5, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I agree, CatMack. The Dark Curse seems more along the lines of the One Ring. Literally no one was able to voluntarily destroy the One Ring. So, I can see why the TLK would have a hard time working.

[RadioGirl27]

After finally watching the whole episode, I don't know how I feel about it. I've enjoyed some things, like the Emma-Hook and Belle-Hook scenes, and I'm starting to like Arthur and Gwen (they are shady, but I like them). But all the Savior Regina nonsense was ridiculous (Really Grumpy? You are buying this too?) and MM showed more concern for Regina in this episode that she has ever showed for her own daughter. The way they defeat the fury was super corny and a bad copy of Guardians of the Galaxy. Oh, and Regina not knowing how to dance? Pure crap.

 

About the kiss in Camelot, I'm not sure it was a TLK attempt, but even if it was it makes sense it didn't work. Emma was high on power and dark magic in that moment.

Edited October 5, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[kili]

They went out of their way to state that the failed TLK didn't mean Emma/Hook aren't true loves.  You originally said that this episode confirmed they weren't true loves and that's demonstrably false.

 

I disagree, but I guess we'll have to do that. IMO Emma and Hook are not True Loves or she would have picked him and her family over her power. Emma loves her power so much, she is completely willing to sacrifice her loved ones for her power. That cannot be my definition of True Love.

 

If you are perfectly able to sacrifice your loved ones and still Truly Love them, then the show is telling me that Regina could have saved Henry from the pie in Season 1. She loved Henry, she just loved her curse and her revenge more so she harmed him and gaslighted him and ended up poisoning him. But, she loved him, so kiss away. How is what she did anything different than Emma rejecting the efforts that her family/friends to traverse realms, choosing to embrace her Dark powers knowing full well what she will become (at least Rumple initially had the excuse of not knowing what he would become).

 

I think that the show did tell us that Regina did learn to love Henry and that love became True and so she could TLK him in Season 3.

 

It is perhaps possible that  Emma will one day Truly Love Hook, but I'm not sure we have another two seasons for her to get there. This show is scrambling their continuity and established rules so quickly this year, that I'm not sure how much longer it can last.

Edited October 5, 2015 by kili

[Serena]

100% agree. I think it highlighted everything that's wrong with the show. Unfortunately, I'm sure A&E will believe it was a hit because of all the positive feedback coming from Evil Regals.

I'm actually a furthest thing from an ER and I liked it. Yes, it had some rage-inducing things (Regina doesn't know how to dance, Grumpy coming to the conclusion Regina is gonna save the town by watching Regina FAIL TO SAVE ROBIN and Robin managing to be saved only thanks to the help of Snowing and himself), but I think the good was more than the bad this time. I was actually very impressed by the fact that they managed to use the guest stars the way they said they would - to prop up the main cast, not the opposite. I feel like they failed at this with Merida in 501, but they struck a good balance with Arthur and Guiveneve.

[Shanna Marie]

I did enjoy the parts of the episode I enjoyed. In fact, this episode was like a case study for the way this show is excellent when it's good and awful when it's not, and for the most part it was the usual reasons it's both excellent and awful. There were some really good scenes, and then there was the massive Regina blindspot that leads to rage knitting.

 

You know what else is messed up? Arthur is totes cool with the concept of Regina being The Evil Queen and The Savior, but apparently Emma being The Dark One and The Savior is just too much.

I noticed that in that scene with him and Gwen at the Round Table, he was talking about wanting the Dark One to get the dagger to restore Excalibur. If this were any other show, I'd suspect that this was a sign that Regina's little charade, while initially well-intentioned, was a huge mistake because the prophecy was actually about the Savior bringing the Dark One dagger so Excalibur could be restored, and that would be what freed Merlin, and that would allow them to vanquish the Darkness and save Emma. At that stage of things, Emma would have been willing to hand over the dagger, and they'd have been back home in time for Granny to handle the dinnertime rush. But by Regina claiming to be the Savior and hiding the dagger so no one would know Emma was both Savior and Dark One and therefore just what they were looking for, she ruined everything. However, unless these writers have had a complete change of heart (and I don't think they have, given poor Percival's treatment and total lack of sympathy for everyone), I can't imagine that happening. Regina will be proved right and will be the savior and the hero who's able to draw Excalibur, and that will prove that she was the rightful queen all along, so she was right to steal Snow's kingdom. They're going overboard to give Regina everything good either Snow or Emma have had, but they'd never give her the well-intentioned action that ends up having horrible consequences, and if they did, being angry about it would be evil, not sympathetic.

 

I'm so over all things Savior with this show. As far as I'm concerned, the savior role was limited to the original curse and ceased to be necessary after season one. What is needed now is not a savior but heroes. Anyone has the potential to be a hero depending on the situation, but some are meant to be Big Damn Heroes and we shouldn't have to worry about character assassination with them all the time.

I'm afraid "Savior" has become to this show what the word "Champion" meant on Angel -- something that started out being meaningful but that got overused to the point of becoming a drinking game. The Savior was woven into the original curse. Period. It wasn't ever shown to be a lifetime obligation for Emma. She was supposed to restore the happy endings Regina stole. There was nothing about her being required to keep doing that, even when people were causing their own problems unrelated to the curse, and she shouldn't be under any obligation whatsoever to fix the things Regina screwed up for herself. Someone may step up to save the town, but that makes them a hero. There shouldn't be any kind of magical Savior role now. Weirdly, that's what this episode seemed to show, even as they were blathering about how everyone coming together somehow showed that Regina was the Savior.

 

That scene with Percival really made me wonder how Regina can walk around just forgetting all that without any guilt.

That was one of the parts of the episode that was awful. I'm sorry, but if she can look at someone talking about her burning his entire village and laughing about it and her only reaction is "don't tell anyone," and that's just because she doesn't want to blow her Savior cover, then she's not redeemed. Period. She feels no guilt, no remorse, no regret, makes no apologies. All she cares about is saving Robin, takes no responsibility for her role in that, and doesn't give a fig for Percival. That makes her a full-on sociopath.
 

Waiting for the ghosts of Greg, Percival, Kurt, Graham, and Leopold to haunt Regina in her sleep.

Can that be the Christmas episode?

 

Wish he could have worn a nice doublet in Camelot instead of the same old pirate gear.

I'm constantly disappointed by the lack of imagination shown in costuming Hook. His "modern" clothes are just barely a change from his pirate attire, and then when he's in a medieval setting, he's back in something almost exactly like his pirate attire instead of being dressed remotely like anyone else. And yet his big story arc is that he's trying to distance himself from being the man he used to be. With him playing the role of "light" against Emma's dark, wouldn't that have been time to get him out of the black leather? A nice blue doublet making him look all fairy-tale like would have been lovely. He's still got the hook, so we're not going to forget who he is.

[Zuleikha]

I'm not about to defend Rumple, especially the one from season 4. But in 112, when we saw the TLK not work for Rumbelle, Rumple needed to keep his power because he needed to reach Bae. It didn't mean he didn't love Belle, he just also loved Bae (I'm still only talking about 112. S4 Rumple is a shitstain who DOES love power more than love).

Rumple didn't need his power to reach Bae. He needed his power to reach Bae in a way that would let him keep his power. I can't quite remember which of the many ways to build a portal it had been established that Rumple knew yet, but it was definitely established by end of season that his specific plot was all about reaching Bae AND keeping magic. So Rumple loved his power at least as much as he loved Belle and Bae. 

 

In terms of this episode, I liked a lot but I wasn't wholly in love with it. I didn't like how the scene with Percival was played. I want an explanation for why Regina isn't wielding white magic when the whole point of 3B was supposed to be that she can or why she didn't use either white or dark magic to freeze Percival, teleport herself away, or teleport him or do any of the other things she can do while he attacked her and then Robin. It was bad enough when Emma couldn't use her magic appropriately last season but at least there was the excuse that we didn't really know how much control Emma had over it. Regina has full control over her powers. There's no way she should have just been standing there gaping while Percival attacked her. Actually... that would have been a good out for the writers! Have Regina have lost her access to dark magic and be relearning how to use magic by learning white magic. They practically went there in the premiere anyway. 

 

It was also a missed, obvious moment to have Regina heal Percival and show mercy. The character is at the point where that's believable. She already did it with Zelena when she had more cause not to. The writers have a real problem with treating tertiary characters as characters rather than obstacles to be removed from the table. They killed off Marian cruelly because they didn't think of her as a real character, and I think they neglected Percival the same way. It would have been so easy to have Regina heal him/stop him and apologize and then make Percival leave because he still can't look at her or because he needs to do some soul-searching or something like that. 

 

Emma's love of power from saving Robin didn't make any sense to me since she could have done that as the Savior. The explanation was that Regina couldn't heal Robin because the sword was enchanted against Regina, so any other strong magic user like Emma could have done it. Emma didn't need to be the Dark One to do it. And why couldn't Emma set the price required for the magic? Rumple does powerful magic for silly trinkets all the time. We've also seen people healed from serious hurts before. So what made what Emma did blood magic that Regina could only pay for with her life rather than routine Dark One healing that could get paid for with any generic favor? 

 

So I liked most of the character moments, but I continue to be frustrated by the writer's unwillingness to do anything coherent with how magic is used and the frustrating morality of how we're expected to just not care about background characters.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Zuleikha

[jay741982]

Jennifer looked REALLY good in that black number. Jesus. I just had to say it again how much I loved her dresses this episode.

She really did look hot in that black number I was like Damn even "Evil" Emma is sexy but Jmo is a babe to begin with lol

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm anti-Regina and I liked this episode. The good (everything non-regina) outweighed the bad (regina) for me. At least regina isn't whining and crying about trying to force someone to give her a happy ending like last season. I find her whining and crying about trying to be the saviour to be (very) slightly less annoying. We actually got to see her struggle with something for 5 minutes. I'll take what I can get.

So Zelena didn't go to the ball, and I assume they immediately locked her back up in the basement when they got back to Camelot.

If they spilled the beans about Emma being the Dark One to Arthur, I guess we don't get to see Zelena miming any of her future lines?

If I get one more good episode out of this season and then the rest of the season is 4b awful quality, it'll still officially top 4b for me (I only liked 2 of its episodes--Ursula's and Cruella's). If the quality keeps up (yes, there will always be problems), Camelot will be better than pretty much all of season 4.

Arthur and the Camelot group feel very organic. I like them. Merida, however, lacks the organic feeling so far. I do like the fact that if Arthur and Gwen turn out to be shady, they're still in the same boat as the Storybrooke crew with the memory loss.

Edited October 5, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Serena]

Rumple didn't need his power to reach Bae. He needed his power to reach Bae in a way that would let him keep his power. I can't quite remember which of the many ways to build a portal it had been established that Rumple knew yet, but it was definitely established by end of season that his specific plot was all about reaching Bae AND keeping magic. So Rumple loved his power at least as much as he loved Belle and Bae. 

He did, though. He was told by a Seer that the only way he was going to reach Bae was by curse. We see him keep trying to find other ways (he sent - I think Jefferson? - to find the Ruby Slippers) but kept failing. This of course was before the 345 retconned ways to travel realms.

[jaigurudeva]

I'm sure Morgan le Faye is going to make an appearance soon. She must have given Percival the enchanted necklace, given that Merlin is a tree. Not sure what other purpose the necklace would have to the plot; Percival already recalled her slaughtering and razing his village. But, if he really wanted to be sure, he could have spied on her nom-magically. Unless it's too introduce another sorcerer/ess.

Morgan is very likely the one who cast the curse on Merlin. Although it could also have been Nimue, as some iterations have her turn Merlin into a tree after betraying him, that may be too deep into Arthurian legend for a show that contends Excalibur was the Sword in the Stone, when it was in fact the sword given to Arthur from Nimue, the Lady of the Lake. They would have stuck with the original legend if they were going to introduce the Lady of the Lake later on.

Edited October 5, 2015 by jaigurudeva

[Curio]

It was also a missed, obvious moment to have Regina heal Percival and show mercy. [...] It would have been so easy to have Regina heal him/stop him and apologize and then make Percival leave because he still can't look at her or because he needs to do some soul-searching or something like that. 

 

That's a great point, and yes, a very missed opportunity. Regina freaking out over Robin dying is expected, but how would Regina react if everyone at the ball was like, "You're the savior! Surely, you can save Percival! Heal him now!" So then Regina as the "savior" is faced with a very savior-esque task, but the crowd doesn't know she's the Evil Queen. So there's this moral dilemma where she needs to save this man's life who she freaking owes big time because she burnt down his village, but if she saves his life, she's giving up her identity as the Evil Queen because Percival would tell everyone about her identity and ruin our heroes' plans. That would have been some great drama.

 

Oh, and to keep up the ruse, Emma could have secretly been the one to revive Percival in the crowd without anyone noticing (or maybe Gwen notices something shifty about Emma and that's why she goes to Arthur at the end of the episode), so Regina pretends to "save" Percival, but it's really Emma tapping into her dark magic. Emma revives Percival, but only enough to be conscious, so he's still in a coma and can't talk/reveal the Evil Queen's identity. And then Regina would get all the credit for being the savior while Emma did all the work, which would drive Emma's anger and make her more sparkly.

 

But, nope.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Curio

[Hookian]

I'm sure Morgan le Faye is going to make an appearance soon. She must have given Percival the enchanted necklace, given that Merlin is a tree. Not sure what other purpose the necklace would have to the plot; Percival already recalled her slaughtering and razing his village. But, if he really wanted to be sure, he could have spied on her nom-magically. Unless it's too introduce another sorcerer/ess.

Morgan is very likely the one who cast the curse on Merlin. Although it could also have been Nimue, as some iterations have her turn Merlin into a tree after betraying him, that may be too deep into Arthurian legend for a show that contends Excalibur was the Sword in the Stone, when it was in fact the sword given to Arthur from Nimue, the Lady of the Lake. They would have stuck with the original legend if they were going to introduce the Lady of the Lake later on.

 In Once's twist they could make Morgan and Nimue the same person.

[kili]

If they spilled the beans about Emma being the Dark One to Arthur, I guess we don't get to see Zelena miming any of her future lines?

 

I found it interesting that Regina used her power (magic and dagger) to mute both her sister and Emma this episode.

 

And why couldn't Emma set the price required for the magic?

 

All I could think of is the superstition where if you give somebody a knife as a present, they give you a penny (and you include the penny in the gift box). Charge her a penny and be done with it. It would have actually been kind of funny when everybody was confused why Emma was demanding a penny.

 

but I continue to be frustrated by the writer's unwillingness to do anything coherent with how magic is used

 

Somebody on the imdb likened the Once rules of magic to the rules of Calvinball in Calvin and Hobbes. Could not agree more.

[october]

This episode was a real mixed bag for me. I liked Hook and Emma's scenes, Jen killing it as Dark Swan, the amount of make-up Hook wore to the ball, Charming giving Henry dating advice, and the sight-gag of Regina going straight for her Evil Queen outfit when Snow told her to wear a dress.

 

But the rest... okay, despite hoping for the best after last week, I was entirely underwhelmed by Regina's Saviour Moment, mainly because the episode IMO failed to properly answer the question it set up: can Regina lead the people and get them to believe in her? She already proved at the end of S2 with the failsafe that she'd sacrifice her life for whoever happened to personify her Happy Ending that week (in that case, Henry and now, Robin). So her throwing herself after the Fury wasn't surprising or new. Then she blamed Rumple for her own life choices, showing a stunning but unsurprising lack of self awareness and going against the lesson she learned at the end of S4 about her being in charge of her own future. Her abuse of the dagger and dismissive attitude to Emma's feelings in Camelot was distasteful, even more so considering Emma goes on to make yet another sacrifice for this shitty, ungrateful harpy. And another of her victims dies a violent death and no one cares, because 'poor child murdering, village slaughtering Regina!'

 

The scene with Snow and Emma was nice, but felt tacked on. Regina should've been teaching Robin to dance. It would've given us an Outlaw Queen moment that wasn't Robin looking constipated with worry or standing around while Zelena gloats over having raped him.

 

My frustration doesn't come from a place of hating Regina. I'm frustrated because instead of giving the character her own awesome story, the writers are obsessed with making her a gross, stitched together doppleganger of Emma and Snow. Regina's story could be about mercy, empathy and her reaching out to her past victims to make amends. Even her lamentations about being seen as the Evil Queen make it seem as if she's blaming other people for seeing her the wrong way. It's all a matter of their perception of her, rather than her lack of actual remorse and decency. Instead we get an episode where a high status woman of royal blood who has lived a life of material luxury and comfort 'finally gets to be a princess'.

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ʍoɥs sᴉɥʇ

[Souris]

I biggest issue with the episode was the Fury. It just did not look very believable at all

 

It reminded me of these alien bug things they had in the last season of "Falling Skies." Also filmed in Vancouver, so maybe they got it cheap. ;)

 

I was honestly punching pillows while watching this episode. Part of me really wants to enjoy it, but I don't seem to have the talent of "turning my brain off". I can let a lot of stuff go by and I can handwave quiet a bit. But if the base material isn't compelling or entertaining enough, the nitpicks and inconsistencies stick out like sore thumbs. If you're going to have nonsensical plot points, then you need to back it up with really good story to compensate. This episode didn't do that for me.

 

I'm the same. It's VERY hard for me to turn off the critical/editing portion of my brain, especially if I'm invested in something. I don't TRY to see the flaws, they simply jump out at me.

[Stuffy]

Snowing needs to be calling Emma, like Hook and Henry did, to find out what the heck is going on.  If she doesn't want to tell them fine, but they at least need to try. Did they even have a scene with Dark Emma in Storybrooke this week?  If they did, I've forgotten.  Whatever happened in Camelot has Emma ticked off at them, and they need to be trying to make it right.  They're all talk and no action when it comes to their daughter.  They're always worried but they're not doing anything to help her. 

[KAOS Agent]

 

Regina's story could be about mercy, empathy and her reaching out to her past victims to make amends. Even her lamentations about being seen as the Evil Queen make it seem as if she's blaming other people for seeing her the wrong way. It's all a matter of their perception of her, rather than her lack of actual remorse and decency.

 

If it were any other character or any other show, I'd think that Regina's actions in this episode was heading somewhere. There was just too much about it that was problematic. Regina magically controlled two people and was shown enjoying it way too much. She was also enjoying all of the glory of being the Saviour while someone else was doing all the work and paying the price for it with her soul. It was ridiculous that suddenly everyone is celebrating and showing massive appreciation for the Saviour when we've never seen that before. Have we ever seen anyone even say thank you to Emma? It just felt like this was meant to highlight something and since Emma didn't appear jealous or upset about Regina basking in the glory, it must be a reflection of something. It's not heroic to be all "You love me! Aren't I awesome? Cheer more!" when you are the "Saviour". I think it's important for those you help to show their appreciation, but reveling in that appreciation isn't right. At least not in the context of how this show portrays its heroes.

 

Then we had Percival and his chilling description of the Evil Queen at work. Instead of making it about Regina trying to make amends, asking for forgiveness and showing a shred of self-awareness, regret or guilt, they killed off a character and his horrible experience as a child was wiped away as in the past. Regina slaughters a village and deserves a second chance, while Percival, rightfully angry and probably seriously fucked up from that experience, doesn't get a second chance and no one cares. How does that work exactly? Compare this event to Hook working to fix Ursula's daddy issues and restore her voice with Ariel. Hook screwed over Ursula, she got angry and tried to kill him and he turned around to work to fix it anyway. One character chose to repair the damage and still felt bad about his initial reaction, while Regina's victim is just dead and that's fine. I don't get it.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Watch Out For That Tree
Did we really learn anything new this week? No, but everyone looked really good doing it! Even the special effects and fight choreography are getting better. Who needs a plot?

[RadioGirl27]

Snowing needs to be calling Emma, like Hook and Henry did, to find out what the heck is going on.  If she doesn't want to tell them fine, but they at least need to try. Did they even have a scene with Dark Emma in Storybrooke this week?  If they did, I've forgotten.  Whatever happened in Camelot has Emma ticked off at them, and they need to be trying to make it right.  They're all talk and no action when it comes to their daughter.  They're always worried but they're not doing anything to help her. 

They were too busy coddling Regina to care about their daughter. Hell, even Regina went to talk to Emma. At this point, at least for me, the relationship between Emma and her parents is broken beyond repair.

They were also ignoring Hook. One would expect that, after everything that guy has done for them, they would care a bit for him. But he is Emma's boyfriend, so it makes sense that they also ignore him.

[Curio]

The episode was called "The Price." So where is the big price? Hm? Everyone copying Guardians of the Galaxy isn't a price. Sorry. I'm still waiting for a dead body to show up somewhere. (If this were any other show, this would have been the big mystery episode that sets up the question that will loom over the rest of the season: who will Regina choose to sacrifice to save Robin? Regina could have negotiated with the Fury and asked for the next moon cycle to offer a dead body, and then that next moon cycle could have coincided perfectly with the finale.)
 

Snowing needs to be calling Emma, like Hook and Henry did, to find out what the heck is going on  If she doesn't want to tell them fine, but they at least need to try. Did they even have a scene with Dark Emma in Storybrooke this week? If they did, I've forgotten.  Whatever happened in Camelot has Emma ticked off at them, and they need to be trying to make it right. They're all talk and no action when it comes to their daughter. They're always worried but they're not doing anything to help her.

The Charmings have been pretty useless in the first two episodes. It's like they don't even care Emma is in danger. In the premiere, Hook was the only one who showed any urgency and was more concerned about finding a portal than they were. And now in this episode, they're more concerned about teaching Regina some dance moves (because apparently, there's a rule out there that says all Saviors instinctually know how to pull off an Argentine Tango) instead of making sure their daughter won't turn dark. Hook is (again) the only one who shows any urgency there.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Regina magically controlled two people and was shown enjoying it way too much.

Uh huh.

 

Why Regina is STILL a psycho:

* She casually mentioned she could wipe out all of the Camelot peeps with a wave of a hand. That was the first thing that came in mind. She could have said, "They don't seem to pose a threat" or something. But her brain went to straight to murder.

* She had zero regrets about gleefully massacring Percival's village. All she cared about was her secret.

* She smiled at the thought of controlling Emma with the dagger and said she could get used to it.

 

The controlling Emma thing really gets me. She finds it fun that she can make her BFF to do her bidding against her will. That's not creepy at all.

 

 

The episode was called "The Price." So where is the big price? Hm? Everyone copying Guardians of the Galaxy isn't a price. Sorry. I'm still waiting for a dead body to show up somewhere. (If this were any other show, this would have been the big mystery episode that sets up the question that will loom over the rest of the season: who will Regina choose to sacrifice to save Robin? Regina could have negotiated with the Fury and asked for the next moon cycle to offer a dead body, and then that next moon cycle could have coincided perfectly with the finale.)

Because magic always has a price... except when it doesn't.

Edited October 5, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[jaytee1812]

I enjoyed this episode.

I like Regina being the saviour, I understand some won't be happy until Regina is publicly flogged until she begs for mercy but I'm happy enough that she's changed for the better.

I understand I'm suppose to think Hook is a good guy but he's so annoying I really hope he has to be sacrificed by the end of this season.

Dark Swan must be the dullest villain ever though, she hasn't actually done anything evil yet. Hopefully when she does, she starts with killing Hook.

Robin Hood really is just a damsel in distress now. Oh well at least Sean keeps up the pretty on this show. There really only is him and Charming for that.

Henry and Violet was adorable. 'Only You' was an odd choice for a teenager though.

[diggle]

It is fairly clear to me that whatever is up, Emma is acting out of good for the town and the people she loves, but they need to find the solution on their own for it all to work.

A test? A trap? A trick. I don't care.

Even "knowing" that, I am enjoying watching it unfold.

And so very much more than the "Frozen" plot.

This seems to be getting more back to the basics of why I started enjoying the show in the first place.

[FierceAfroChick]

If it were any other character or any other show, I'd think that Regina's actions in this episode was heading somewhere. There was just too much about it that was problematic. Regina magically controlled two people and was shown enjoying it way too much. She was also enjoying all of the glory of being the Saviour while someone else was doing all the work and paying the price for it with her soul. It was ridiculous that suddenly everyone is celebrating and showing massive appreciation for the Saviour when we've never seen that before. Have we ever seen anyone even say thank you to Emma? It just felt like this was meant to highlight something and since Emma didn't appear jealous or upset about Regina basking in the glory, it must be a reflection of something. It's not heroic to be all "You love me! Aren't I awesome? Cheer more!" when you are the "Saviour". I think it's important for those you help to show their appreciation, but reveling in that appreciation isn't right. At least not in the context of how this show portrays its heroes.

 

Then we had Percival and his chilling description of the Evil Queen at work. Instead of making it about Regina trying to make amends, asking for forgiveness and showing a shred of self-awareness, regret or guilt, they killed off a character and his horrible experience as a child was wiped away as in the past. Regina slaughters a village and deserves a second chance, while Percival, rightfully angry and probably seriously fucked up from that experience, doesn't get a second chance and no one cares. How does that work exactly? Compare this event to Hook working to fix Ursula's daddy issues and restore her voice with Ariel. Hook screwed over Ursula, she got angry and tried to kill him and he turned around to work to fix it anyway. One character chose to repair the damage and still felt bad about his initial reaction, while Regina's victim is just dead and that's fine. I don't get it.

 

It's as if Regina somehow got ahold of the author’s pen and 5A is her happy ending.

[kili]

It is fairly clear to me that whatever is up, Emma is acting out of good for the town and the people she loves

I thought that until the final scene with Rumple in the basement. Rumple isn't there, it is just their way of showing us her inner dialogue. Unless Emma has gone completely crackers and now has two personalities, how can she be hiding her true motivations during her inner dialogues? How can she hide what she is really doing from herself?

 

If it had been Zelena sitting in her basement trying to convince her to get rid of her loved ones and to pull the sword from the stone, I could see Emma as running some long con. But, it's just Rumple in her head who during the last couple of episodes knew quite clearly what is in her head and is not seen by anybody else.

 

Unless we find out that Rumple is really Rumple and everybody else just can't see him.

 

Which: Calvinball rules apply.

Edited October 5, 2015 by kili

[YaddaYadda]

"You love me! Aren't I awesome? Cheer more!" when you are the "Saviour".

 

I wanted to throttle Robin when he told Regina he was also looking forward to a dance with the Savior. Really? Go back to your forest, Robin and stay there! 

 

 

 

Because magic always has a price... except when it doesn't.

It's not the people who should be paying the price who pay it. Regina paid no price. Robin is alive because she begged Emma to heal him when he should be dead. Emma is the one who paid the price. Even in SB she paid for nothing. Robin is still alive and everyone who was there helped her because she's Regina. Meanwhile, they just stood around and watched Emma disappear in a black cloud of evil.

 

Snowing should adopt Regina and stop calling Emma their daughter.

 

Zelena is right. She might be batshit crazy, but she's right about Regina. Regina pays for nothing, but bitches about her life and wants her problems fixed with the snap of a finger.

 

If they introduced Mary Margaret as MM instead of Snow White, is this because they decided to not let them know that they were Snow White and Prince Charming because Arthur might know who they are by reputation? Percival recognized Regina, so he might have known who Snow and David are?

Edited October 5, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[october]

Percival recognized Regina, so he might have known who Snow and David are?

 

Maybe he would've known that they were filthy egg-nappers.

[Curio]

"Many years ago, a boy returned to his village in the Enchanted Forest to find it ablaze. Villagers screaming, terror in their eyes... his whole world burning like a funeral pyre. The boy hid, praying for mercy. But none came, only an angel of death. And she slipped through the flames, relishing in the horror she wrought. But before she escaped, she saw the boy. And amidst the carnage, do you know what she did? She smiled at him."

 

And then that little boy turned into a man, and on his quest to kill this woman who destroyed his village...he died in front of her. The End. 

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe he would've known that they were filthy egg-nappers.

Maybe.

 

But hey, between the nanny cam necklace, the fire television, the enchanted sword, him standing in Merlin's tower, dabbling in magic, I doubt he's dead. I think he went into this knowing exactly what might happen to him and took the precautions needed.

 

I don't think we've seen the last of him.

[patchwork]

I didn't consider Regina teaching Robin to dance (I tend to forget about him a lot) but YES! that's what they should have done instead of expecting us to believe Cora didn't hire the best tutors for Queen Queen.

 

I would have been happy with her just saying she's rusty and Snowing stepping in to give her a quick refresher but more than that I wish Emma was the one dancing with David, while MM and Hook look a bit awkward dancing together in the background, she notices lovelorn Henry and David steps in to give him man tips.

 

This Regina The Saviour nonsense is really going to test my viewership loyalty, I don't like it in principle and there's a disconnect between what the show's says is happening and what I see on my screen.      

[Francie]

Eh, I'll weigh in on the "Regina can't dance" argument.  Cora wanted Regina to marry royalty and acquire power, but that was the extent of her plans. If part of the plan was to get Regina a royal engagement via attending balls, Cora would have made sure Regina knew how to dance.  But they lived in the middle of nowhere and had no interaction with other royalty. Cora's plan instead was to seize an opportunity to put Snow's life in danger. 

 

Was Charming, Snow and Doc showing Regina how to dance cheesy? Sure. I get why it's aggravating to have Snow and Charming heaping all this attention on Regina. But Regina not knowing how to dance isn't the most far out there notion on this show.

[regularlyleaded]

But Regina not knowing how to dance isn't the most far out there notion on this show.

 

No, it's pretty effing ridiculous. IMO one of the top three most absurd things the writers have wanted the audience to believe (the number one bullshit item on this show being that Regina is a "hero" when in actuality anyone with eyeballs and basic brain functions can workout that she's a homicidal sociopath).

 

Any social climbing, scheming person like Cora that presented their BABY at court like this:

 

would've made effing sure that Regina could dance and participate in formal balls.

The writers are taking the piss. The writers want Woegina Sue, so they write Woegina Sue even if the result is just a shit bag full of retcons and lies, which is what all of this is. 

Edited October 5, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[Curio]

Even if you go with the idea that Regina was a tomboy growing up and skipped her mother's dancing lessons and instead went and rode horses, there's still a ton of years you have to retcon with her marriage to Leopold. Are you telling me that at her own wedding, Leopold and Regina didn't even have a fake dance? Or any of the years that they were married?

 

I could realistically see Regina at first being an annoyed dance parter who could never look Leopold in the eyes and ditching him in the middle of the dance floor, and then it slowly progressed to her never dancing at all. But the show wants me to believe she never danced once? Ever? Not even with some scheming knight who might have found the Evil Queen's allure intriguing? There weren't any Nottingham types or Evil Kings who wanted to secretly negotiate some evil plan with Regina on the dance floor at a ball, only for Regina to rip their heart out in the middle of their dance routine and kill them? Come on, that basically writes itself.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Curio