S03.E12: The Number Of The Beast Is 666

[Tippi Blevins]

I think the glue melted from the fire. You can kind of see the melted gooey strings as Chilton is ejected from the chair.

 

I, too, am tired of Francis's contorted yoga posing. Look, Richard Armitage looks very fit in his tiny underpants, but I'm rolling my eyes at this point. Also, Francis clawing at himself felt out of place for this episode. It just seems a little late in the game to still be trying to fight his inner Dragon.

[Captanne]

Maddingcrowd

 

I've been trying to get a few friends to watch this, but they all say it's too gory; hope they weren't tuning in tonight. I might be the only one but I find the whole idea of Hannibal and Will actually being in love and having a romantic relationship just silly. Will is a straight man and Hannibal has physically hurt him, set the Dragon after his family, killed Abigail and much more. You really would have to be incredibly sick to be in love with someone who personally hurts you and your family. And the Will we have known has more of a fascination with Hannibal than any kind of silly love affair.

 

This is what I've been complaining about -- Will going back and back and back to Hannibal.  I realize Fuller is trying to give us a "prequel" to Red Dragon and now the "main attraction" with his rendering of that story.  But, I got fed up with Will's return to Hannibal by the episode in HannibalVania.  When he was thrown from the train I almost gave up on the show entirely.  It was just a terrible show by that point.  

 

It made me think of text book abusive emotional relationships where the beaten party keeps inexplicably returning to the abuser.  You justify it in your mind but anyone watching gets to a point of just despair and frustration and an inability to understand.  The last step is to throw up your hands in disgust and sadness.  That's how I felt when the Chiyoh bullshit ended with a push from a train (not to mention an unconscionable act perpetrated on the dead body of an old man by the HERO.)

 

 

I really can't stand any of the Bedelia scenes. There is no reason in the world she would be treating Will in any way, the way she talks is so theatrical and robotic, and in every scene with her and Will, both of them look like they are crying. Way over the top.

 

Sing it, sister.

 

I did appreciate Bedelia's tears this time but she doesn't explain the reason for them.  We can read into it all we want but the fact of the matter is that she lived in luxury with Hannibal in one of the most incredible cities on the face of the planet and helped him murder and devour local people.  She is a mental case herself.  She has no business talking to Will, he has no business going to her, and she should be in a a padded cell.  

 

She's a total quack.

 

It's not cute, it's not "meaningful", it's not AT ALL sympathetic.  She has been utterly complicit and has no one to blame but herself and a diagnosed psychopathic serial killing cannibal.  

 

It's disgusting.  

 

And I do not understand this character or performance at all. 

 

[snip]

 

 

I kind of liked Chilton, coward that he is

 

Oddly, so did I.

 

 

 

I'm still enjoying both Hannibal and Will but if they end with them as lovers I will scream my head off.

 

I will spend about two seconds of my time saying that is out of character and I can't imagine they would go there because at that point, Harris has a legitimate law suit.

 

ETA:  Also, by this point, I wouldn't let Hannibal near my body with his face.  So, if their relationship becomes sexual, Will should fully expect to become dinner.  (Maybe they've seen "The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover"?  Dick for dinner is a possibility.)

 

Probably NSFW:  http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=buffet+image+the+cook+thief+wife+lover&view=detailv2&&id=A6D5363E2A936AC0BB45BFCEFA31DF45E1FA0BB5&selectedIndex=0&ccid=AyCkqvpV&simid=608022199902340607&thid=JN.gA%2fGp%2bJvrN34Bzp3%2febkjg&ajaxhist=0

Edited August 23, 2015 by Captanne

[Chaos Theory]

I liked that Chilton realized he had been set up by Will to look like his pet in the picture because The Dragoon goes after pets first. I think that scene in the hospital gave Chilton a last hoorah. The scene with Chilton and Hannibal was funny. "You refrudiated my work." "It didn't hold up to scrutiny." "Of course it didn't. I was lying!" I think those might be the funniest lines I have heard in awhile.

I also liked the scene between Jack and Hannibal where they compared themselves to God and the Devil.

I know many people don't like her but I love Bedelia and I enjoyed her scenes with Will.

It's sad but the only scenes that did nothing for me were the Red Dragon scenes.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Captanne]

I find the Red Dragon very compelling but Armitage is my only other version of him.  I still haven't seen Fiennes' performance.  I like Armitage but I agree -- the point of the attic gymnasium has been made quite enough.  

 

I think one of the main problems is that it's so damned dark.  We may have had several different Emmy-worthy sequences up in that attic if. we. could. have. only. seen. them.

[raven]

Why in the world does Hannibal get mail delivered to him unopened?  That bugged me, Alana looked so disgusted to be holding a fancy, handwritten envelope for him...WTF?  It should have been carefully opened by someone in law enforcement.  I had the same thought about Hannibal's office, it's been a few years, that place should have been stripped and the items sold off or whatever they do when someone's incarcerated for lilfe and their assets taken.  Maybe this was addressed and I missed it.

 

It is too bad that the FBI sucks in this verse and has to depend on a pyscho cannibal to help them catch a serial killer.  WRT to Captanne's comment about Will returning to his abuser, they are ALL doing it (Will, Jack, Alana).  Yes, it gives us great performances and one-on-ones (Jack/Hannibal I thought was very good) but it really requires a suspension of disbelief, on my part anyway.  At least in the earlier goings there were investigations, clue follow ups etc.

 

 

She's a total quack.

 

ITA.  I can't stand her scenes, they are there only so Will has someone to talk to - a role that should more properly be filled by Alana, IMO, who also had (and continues to have) her own type of intimate relationship with Hannibal.  For the record, I have nothing against Gillian Anderson, but she doesn't add anything to the show for me.  We could have had much richer dialogue with Will/Alana, especially considering how Alana's life has changed, how Will's has changed, and the fact that they had a friendship early on and that closeness is now gone.  It just makes no sense that Will would talk to her; from a character standpoint I mean, since the show has at best a loose grip on reality.

 

WRT to Will asking about Hannibal's being in love with him, his having to ask does not surprise me; to Hannibal, Will is the one that got away but Will has recovered and moved on.  Will spent 3 years building a normal life away from Hannibal; Hannibal spent those years obsessing about Will.   Hannibal will work to keep Will close now.  Will needs to realize he can't win by playing Hannibal's game, he can only win by playing his own.  This is the mistake he's making; allowing himself to be caught up again in Hannibal's orbit after being brought in again.  With only one episode left, who knows what we'll see, but I hope that Will realizes that.   I interpret Will's anger "lamb becoming a lion" as anger at being manipulated and misread; anger at himself for allowing it and the consequences it brought; first to Molly and Walter and now to Chilton.  I don't view Will as the lamb for that matter - being empathetic doesn't mean you're delicate, ridiculous train scenes notwithstanding.

 

This time around Chilton suffered the consequences, and I fault Jack (the experienced law enforcement officer) and Alana (the supposedly experienced ?psychologist?) as much as Will.

 

Chilton may have been a coward but showed bravery - trying to play along with Dolarhyde as much as possible when most people would only be sobbing and pleading and by NOT crying out to Reba.  I thought that showed great control in spite of his fear.  He's been a fun character to watch in his sleazy way and definitely didn't deserve what happened to him.

 

Though I appreciate Armitage's fine physique, this show is for the most part so good at dialogue and has so many great performances, I've got to agree with most of you that more story on Dolarhyde (and what better time than with his captive audience of Chilton) and less flexing would have been welcome.  Fuller is a bit too in love with his visuals and wasting lines of dialogue on Bedelia that could have been used elsewhere though.

 

Geez, that all makes it sound as if I hate the show, LOL - I don't (though I reallllly disliked the first part of the season in Italy) and I'll miss it.  As I said, the performances are top notch; especially the one one ones and it is pretty unique in tvland. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by raven

[Captanne]

raven

Geez, that all makes it sound as if I hate the show, LOL - I don't (though I reallllly disliked the first part of the season in Italy) and I'll miss it.  As I said, the performances are top notch; especially the one one ones and it is pretty unique in tvland.

 

Nicely put.

 

I enjoyed the Italy part ONLY because it was Florence and we got amazing film quality in both style and technique of, quite possibly, one of the most significant cities in the history of Western Civilization.  So, that was cool.  The inexplicably awful Bedelia got to wear that beautiful brocade gown.  (Athough the green monstrosity with the hat almost negates any cool points she earned for the brocade.  Bad, wardrobe people, bad.)  And she got to play house with a handsome, poised, elegant, and intellectual man so she could pretend to be almost normal, upper class, and well-coiffed.  

 

That was fun in a sort of "dressing up in mommy's closet" way.  Otherwise it was baffling and I feel your dislike.

 

By the time we got to Hannibalvania, the show was lost to me.  (Back in Baltimore and the DC Metropolitan area, I regained hope but the jury is still out on Red Dragon.  I have to see where Fuller is taking Will.)

[jeansheridan]

Chaos Theory we can be a Bedelia fan club of two! Hee. Actually Will has a brunette, a blonde, and a redhead nattering at him. I wonder if that color scheme matters.

The film Red Dragon explains Francis' s issues in a very compact and uncomplex way. It isn't a subtle movie. But they get it done in 5 min. We have had one flashback dinner scene in 5 eps. Given the actor they hired this portrait should have been so much more. His work in The Hobbit was more complex! I know being all physical and nearly wordless is a challenge but it has gotten tedious. But the payoff with Chilton was scary. I was scared for Chilton and in my fanworld he lives and Alana uses her millions to fix his face and treat his wounds. Because Alana had no reason to set him up. Nobody did. If being unpleasant is the standard for being thrown at a killer then we are all doomed.

[Captanne]

In the book and film of SotL, didn't Hannibal kill Chilton?  

[raven]

Captanne, I haven't read the book, but film SoTL ends with Hannibal telling Clarice he's "having an old friend for dinner" (he's in some tropical location) and we see Chilton getting off a plane in the same location. End movie.

 

I agree that the Florence scenes were beautiful; they went on seemingly forever to me and so ended up feeling self-indulgent of Fuller, while not adding much to the story.  I did like the Will/Hannibal church scene, and I enjoyed watching Jack beat up Hannibal :)

 

Visually I liked Hannibalvania more - personal preference to spooky, gothic locations; Will creeping around in the fog outside was a highlight for me to watch - but Chiyoh was a useless character (why is she here??? I kept asking myself) and Will stringing up the dead captive was baffling.  Anytime Fuller has Will act more like Hannibal, it just doesn't work for me - I can accept empathetic, damaged, anger, revenge maybe, justice sure (and I really enjoy "this is my design" scenes) - but Will replicating Hannibal's actions never rings true.

 

Interestingly the "Red Dragon" movie is on right now and they're doing the grandmother scene.  Now I feel sympathy for Dolarhyde.  I think I understand why Fuller left this out - though it's possible he could have saved it for next week - giving Dolarhyde a background of abuse makes him less of a monster and more of a broken person behaving monstrously.  Fuller, I think, just wanted the monster.

Edited August 23, 2015 by raven

[Captanne]

I think he really got the gothic spookiness but -- holy cats -- where did any of that fit in the plot line?  How did it advance it?  

 

This is such a lush show, it's visually gorgeous (usually) but to waste an entire episode on such an eccentric anomaly -- was just too bad.  Then, to end it with that absurd train business.  It was almost insulting because it took a character we are obviously supposed to care about and put him in peril, which didn't make the ordinary viewer worry for his well-being.  It made them laugh.  

 

It was kind of embarrassing.

[patty1h]

After reading the comments that say that Hannibal is grooming Will to become a killer, I feel out of the loop.  I just didn't see that being played out onscreen.  I see Will being pushed to the edge by his empathy and knowing that the Dragon touched his life and that Hannibal is messing with him, but I don't see him going darkside.  Yeah, Bedelia is filling his head with words about him setting up Chilton, but her words don't convince me that Will is turning.  

 

I have no problem imagining Will killing Dolarhyde to stop his reign of terror, but I don't see how that would induce Will to keep up killing to feed some bloodlust fueled by his relationship with Hannibal.  That talk about the lambs wrath... I see Will taking down the Dragon in a bloody showdown, then Will going for a nice rest with a little therapy thrown in (NOT Bedelia).  Not a raging berserker.  What am I missing?

Edited August 23, 2015 by patty1h

[tennisgurl]

 Damn Chilton. In the words of Eli from Boardwalk Empire "How the fuck are you still alive"? That was brutal, even for this show.

 

I felt awful for Chilton. There is something endearing about his sliminess, and he really did not deserve that at all.

 

I have to say, I think the show has hit a good balance again on artsy and reality. I loved the Florence stuff, but its got WAY too abstract for its own good. This is still lush and artsy and weird, but the plot actually happens as well.

 

I need to think about this episode more after drinking more coffee.  

[Snookums]

At least his big reveal to Chilton by projector light felt real and suitably terrifying. In Red Dragon Fiennes' Jersey Shore-esque posedown complete with looking over his shoulder for Lounds' reaction was so comical it completely dispelled any sense of menace from the scene. Armitage's Dolarhyde regards Chilton as something so beneath him that he needn't bother worrying about how he reacts.

 

 

I agree Armitage's performance was scary, but honestly? Been there, done that. When he was bellowing "DO YOU SEEEEEE" at Chilton post Reba-breakup-chat, Esparza really projected a subtle eye-roll through the fear. "God, yes, I SEEEEEE already, Jesus. This is longer than a Minnesota goodbye, Melrose Place."

[jeansheridan]

 

After reading the comments that say that Hannibal is grooming Will to become a killer, I feel out of the loop.  I just didn't see that being played out onscreen.  I see Will being pushed to the edge by his empathy and knowing that the Dragon touched his life and that Hannibal is messing with him, but I don't see him going darkside.  Yeah, Bedelia is filling his head with words about him setting up Chilton, but her words don't convince me that Will is turning.

Here are the things that concern me. 

--Will has chosen to help Hannibal twice over helping Jack (he warned Hannibal on the phone and he let Hannibal go after Muskrat Farm (and given Hannibal rescued him, that seemed fair, but Jack wouldn't have done it).

--Will tried to stab Hannibal in Florence

--Will set up Frederick  It was partially Alana's idea and Jack fully supported the effort, but Will knew what he was doing.  Having two guys on Frederick wasn't nearly enough protection.  Frederick should have been kept in a fully secure location during the "operation".  Unlike the book and film versions, there WAS reason to think he might go after Chilton.  In the books he goes after Freddie and it's a bit of a curve ball.

 

So these are the things that worry me.  That and his increasing anger towards Jack and his isolation from Molly and Walter.  I would have felt better had they shown one scene of him with Molly.  Last week I was encouraged when he chose to sit with her until she woke up.  Molly is the real world, the normal world.  Her hospital room looked normal, her house feels normal (if impossibly rustic and delightful), she is normal with her son, negotiating the morality of when to tell the FULL truth.

 

Away from Molly it is all twisted for him.  He is in Hannibal's universe. 

 

I'm not great with religious imagery, but doesn't Dante's Inferno, Purgatory, and Paradise mimic Christ's death?  His three days between death and rising?  So if Will is the lamb of God, he descended, maybe the three years with Molly were Purgatory (sort of holding in place) and he'll emerge triumphant?  That's the best case scenario.  I just hope Fuller has a proper ending for us.  I think some things will be left dangling, alas.  And I don't see how he can let Hannibal out of prison.  He will be there at the end of series, I think.

Edited August 23, 2015 by jeansheridan

[jeansheridan]

 

I think he really got the gothic spookiness but -- holy cats -- where did any of that fit in the plot line?  How did it advance it?

I still think the train push was to mirror Hannibal's fall from the window.  It was weird and floaty and I didn't really worry about Will surviving.  He was just delayed.  And yeah, I laughed, but I didn't mind laughing.  It was a slap to his head.  WAKE UP.  But it didn't seem to work given his actions in the next episode.

 

If you hadn't read the books at all or seen any of movies, then going to castle told us that Misha was real, that she had been murdered, It also gave us another one of Hannibal's "projects".  I know Chiyoh wasn't successful for most people and in the moment she wasn't for me either.  The actress was far too young to be credible (and when I think of the wealth of fortysomething Japanese actresses out there!  Ug.  Fuller could have done much better). 

 

But what she represents in relation to Will is interesting.  Hannibal imprisoned her by using her own moral code against her.  And she did not cave.  Granted it doesn't appear he was able to have direct influence on her like he did with his patients or with Will.  She was protected in a way by staying in the one location he chose not to visit.  She held onto her code by being stubborn.  No wonder she was so angry with Will for forcing her to break her streak!  Pushing him off the train was probably kinder than he deserved. 

 

Chiyoh was unchanging and unchangeable.  She did not transform like Will.  Hannibal praises her for her stability.  So she's Will's opposite.  And Bedelia's.  Chiyoh did not participate.  And other than killing her prisoner due to circumstances, her actions are entirely her own choice.  She's not being manipulated. 

[saber5055]

I know this is tv-land and everything is just made up for the spectacle and story and so forth, but Will solved HOW MANY serial-killer cases in season one, without Hannibal's help? So Tooth Fairy kills just two families and Will has to go to Hannibal for help? Because Hannibal knows all about Tooth Fairy ... how? I know the title of this show so there's that, but it just doesn't make sense.

 

Plus Will clearly saw Tooth Fairy in the museum elevator. Why wasn't a photo ID done? Oh, I guess for the same reason that Hannibal's face was never shown on a billboard, Internet site or in the newspaper the whole time he was in Europe eating people.

 

Belidia ... can't get her off my screen fast enough. A character who was intriguing and sympathetic in season one now serves no purpose other than giving Will someone to have esoteric conversations with. Does she talk in that hesitating breathless way when she orders in a restaurant, or buys something from a shop clerk? Geesh, it's irritating. Speak up, for pete's sake.

 

I'm also stymied as to why she isn't facing some sort of criminal charges being the accomplice to Hanniibal. Or does being a junkie let someone off scott-free in European courts?

 

And enough already with Dragon's preening and body-clawing, which seems to be added each week to fill up the time.

 

My perfect ending would be for Will to walk into Hannibal's cell area, pull out a shotgun and let Hannibal have it with both barrels. I think that's what those round holes in the plexi are for.

[Captanne]

jeansheridan, thank you so much for that analysis of Chiyoh because I ... got nuthin'.  None of that from the episode.  All I could focus on was Will's incongruous little Boy Scout routine in the fireflies with his teeny weeny campfire for, uh, warmth?  Oh, and the 8,000,000 candles that must have been a pain in the ass to light every night, put out, relight the next day, and -- erm, be expensive to import when they need more?  (Come to think of it -- there was a lot of fire reference in that episode.)

 

As for Bedelia, saber5055, she not only isn't in jail, she's making speeches in that staccato to audiences voluntarily there to listen.  

 

I'm not as put off by Dolarhyde's preening because Will has stated (and I've heard before) that serial killers are narcissists.  His obsession with body building and mirrors and his "becoming" (It's All About Me-ism) seems to make sense.  His whole raison-d'etre is that HE is the chosen one out of the billions of other lesser-beings who merely inhabit this world with him and his greatness.  So -- the vanity goes along with all that.  A little goes a long way, though.  LOL

[Neurochick]

I too live in NYC and when I saw the episode listed but for just a half hour, I figured they wouldn't show it but would have it on demand and it was on demand this morning, watched it on Hulu just now though.  

 

I think it's tacky of NBC to just pull the rug out from under the show this way.  Yes, I know the ratings have been bad and the show has been cancelled, but to show all but the last two episodes shows real a disrespect for the audience.  And it make me, a viewer feel, why should I invest in any NBC show if they pull shit like this?  What about the viewers who have neither cable nor a computer?

 

He went from a confused, gentle lover to an abusive asshole. This is why I could never buy them as a couple. Who couldn't see this coming after all? I couldn't see him with a lover. He's a crazy ass serial killer. I know it was in the books but I just don't think it was done well on the show. I didn't buy it from the start.

 

I sat there like WTF did he kidnap her?  In Manhunter it made sense, Francis got jealous because he thought (in his head) that he saw another man kiss her.  I didn't get why or how he kidnaped her at all.  Also in Manhunter, the Francis character looked batshit insane but didn't really act that way, this Francis looks hot but acts too batshit crazy for my liking.  So I'm watching this like, "What's wrong with Reba that she would fall for this nutcase?"   I think Armitage shouldn't have played Francis so nutty.  I think it would be scarier for a hot, normal looking guy to be an insane serial killer.  

Edited August 23, 2015 by Neurochick

[Bruinsfan]

 I know Chiyoh wasn't successful for most people and in the moment she wasn't for me either.  The actress was far too young to be credible (and when I think of the wealth of fortysomething Japanese actresses out there!  Ug.  Fuller could have done much better). 

I'm skeptical about the writing for Chiyoh working for anyone, but at the very least Hannibal would have been a far prettier and more stylish waste of an actress like Tamlyn Tomita than her brief turn as a disposable character on Zoo.

[saber5055]

I think Armitage shouldn't have played Francis so nutty.  I think it would be scarier for a hot, normal looking guy to be an insane serial killer.

 

 

Plus Francis has a job, although not explained fully on the show. In the book he's the supervisor or some big shot at that film company. And yeah, WAY scarier (and safer from being found out) if a crazed serial killer is normal-acting in public. bat-shit in private.

[Brattinella]

I will be pulling my support of any NBC show after Hannibal is done.  For local news, I'll go somewhere else.

[redfish]

She's a total quack.

 

True, but she has moments where she has a point. And besides, she's technically not his therapist. They're just two people reminiscing their connection to Hannibal using the therapist/patient format. And as a therapist she has to remain emotionally neutral, she can't mirror his emotions or else become too tied in that neither will know who is the "sane" and "rational" individual. She's there to provide a sounding board for him to figure out for himself the moral dilemmas without emotional judgement/investment. Will has to rebuild his moral centre/clarity and make the decisions on his own without an emotional bias or manipulation of a supposed emotional "connection". But she's also there to debate on an intellectual level just like she did in terms of whether or not he's capable of cold blooded murder in the previous episode and his motivation of setting up Chilton. 

I think before she met Hannibal she believed she was a good therapist who thought she cared about people, but after she realized she's still a good therapist who just doesn't like people.

[Chaos Theory]

True, but she has moments where she has a point. And besides, she's technically not his therapist. They're just two people reminiscing their connection to Hannibal using the therapist/patient format. And as a therapist she has to remain emotionally neutral, she can't mirror his emotions or else become too tied in that neither will know who is the "sane" and "rational" individual. She's there to provide a sounding board for him to figure out for himself the moral dilemmas without emotional judgement/investment. Will has to rebuild his moral centre/clarity and make the decisions on his own without an emotional bias or manipulation of a supposed emotional "connection". But she's also there to debate on an intellectual level just like she did in terms of whether or not he's capable of cold blooded murder in the previous episode and his motivation of setting up Chilton.

I think before she met Hannibal she believed she was a good therapist who thought she cared about people, but after she realized she's still a good therapist who just doesn't like people.

I don't think she is a total quack. I think she is very good at what she does but lacks empathy. Chilton is a quack but he is a funny one. Bedelia is a dangerious sociopath that Hannibal manipulated just like he manipulates everyone. She liked to watch....he made her participate. Edited August 23, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Anela]

When Will and Jack were walking outside, I was briefly distracted by them being in an area they could just walk in, instead of driving. I'm so tired of being stuck in the middle of nowhere.

 

Poor Chilton. I don't like seeing him get hurt over and over, either, whilst smug Hannibal smirks at the world, everything intact. His eating that lip was disgusting. 

 

I've already commented on Will, in his thread. I don't like the story taking it to that sort of place - taking him there. 

[DeadlyEuphoric]

When Will "broke up" with Hannibal, he was pretty much giving him the same deal Hannibal offered Alana in S2 "you leave me alone and I will leave you alone". I think when Hannibal didn't really take that deal and instead surrendered, Will chose to categorize it just as Hannibal messing with him, that Hannibal is just that confident that he can't resist him etc.. The importance of Will finally coming to terms with the fact Hannibal is in love with him lies in him realizing no matter what HE does or say, he can never be free of Hannibal because Hannibal won't leave him alone, not if he is in love with him. That none of this will end with Red Dragon, home will never be safe with Hannibal around. Hannibal will find some other way to be in Will's life, and till Hannibal has Will, anyone standing between him and Will is in mortal danger. So Will either kills Hannibal to end all this, or runs away with him or continues to resist Hannibal but also alienates the people in his life so that they don't become targets for Hannibal...

 

Bedelia and Will talked about how Hannibal "gave" Will 3 years to build a family. And I believe during that time, he DID leave Will alone, no postcards or birthday cards trolling to Will like he does with Bedelia. That suggests to me Hannibal waited for Will to get a bit too comfortable in his new life, and so much less on guard for handling Hannibal and his mind games when they next met. Will with a family is a person who has a lot to loose and so is more desperate and in a way more vulnerable...

 

 

Bedelia seems so icy and even robotic on the surface, but I think she's actually a cauldron of bubbling emotion that she has to work very hard at keeping under a simmer. In her first scene with Will, there are tears brimming in her eyes. She loves Hannibal. Hannibal loves Will.

 

I wondered if Reba was aware that Francis wasn't alone in the house when she came to visit. I mean, Frederick probably peed himself at the least, and he was sweating pretty hard. Plus that glue probably stank. I don't know.

 

My friend also brought up the theory that Bedelia is in love with Hannibal and so jealous of Will, and to be honest, thinking of her that way does explain some of her actions better. Like why she thinks everyone Hannibal seems to have some human connection with (like Chiyoh and Will) is a "big mistake" on his part. Why she ran away with Hannibal. Why there was a sense of hostility towards Will from her whenever Hannibal and she were talking about him while in Italy. Why she seemed to want to influence Hannibal to eat Will. Even in S2, she kept telling him to stay away from Will. One can read it as her wanting Hannibal to remain "untainted" by human connections/feelings, but one can also read it as her being in love. and lately, it is starting to come off as if she was in love. She wanted to be the "special" one for Hannibal, but although she did get special treatment, she just wasn't "that" special to him at the end of the day. she is just not Will.

 

Two quick things that made me say 'huh':  Francis holding up a thermos and showing it to Chilton.  He indicates that it contains ice, "for your trip home".

 

I thought he used the ice to keep the lips "fresh" enough for Hannibal and that was what he meant, but not so sure...

 

I am unfamiliar with Bluebeard. Does the last wife survive?

 

According to Wikipedia she does. She fools Bluebeard into postponing killing her till she is done saying her prayers, and before she is done her brothers come and kill Bluebeard and save her. And as Bluebeard's widow, she inherits his fortune and makes a very good second marriage thanks to all that money...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebeard

 

Is Hannibal using Dolarhyde as a distraction so he can escape, then kill off everyone but Will and escape with him?

 

The feeling I have is Hannibal would have gotten out anytime he wanted (or at least he believes he can), that wasn't the problem, the problem/goal was getting Will back. Dolarhyde just happens to be an opportunity for him to lure Will back into his orbit and influence him again.

 

Yeah, Bedelia is filling his head with words about him setting up Chilton, but her words don't convince me that Will is turning. 

 

The problem for me is not that Bedelia or Chilton accuse him of setting him up, it is that Will pretty much admits to doing this through his reactions to their accusations and his answers. And his actions also read as him setting Chilton up from the beginning.

 

But what she represents in relation to Will is interesting.  Hannibal imprisoned her by using her own moral code against her.  And she did not cave.  Granted it doesn't appear he was able to have direct influence on her like he did with his patients or with Will.  She was protected in a way by staying in the one location he chose not to visit.  She held onto her code by being stubborn.  No wonder she was so angry with Will for forcing her to break her streak!  Pushing him off the train was probably kinder than he deserved. 

 

Chiyoh was unchanging and unchangeable.  She did not transform like Will.  Hannibal praises her for her stability.  So she's Will's opposite.  And Bedelia's.  Chiyoh did not participate.  And other than killing her prisoner due to circumstances, her actions are entirely her own choice.  She's not being manipulated. 

 

I kind of disagree about Chiyoh not being manipulated. She would like to think she can not be manipulated but the fact is, she was doing exactly what Hannibal demanded from her and never ever even thought to do anything else. She was stuck playing the game he set for her. She was manipulated into wasting her entire life in a decaying castle looking after a rotting prisoner. It seemed to be her punishment for interfering, for being so stupidly "moral"... And the prisoner's fate was actually worse than the quick death he was going to get from Hannibal, he is now made to suffer daily as his health deteriorates over time and he dies a horrible, slow death... Either way, Hannibal is getting what he wants... Hannibal didn't need to visit her, he has already set the game where it was win-win for him. The prisoner dies one way or another  (only a matter of time) and Chiyoh is either a killer or a torturer.

 

I know this is tv-land and everything is just made up for the spectacle and story and so forth, but Will solved HOW MANY serial-killer cases in season one, without Hannibal's help? So Tooth Fairy kills just two families and Will has to go to Hannibal for help? Because Hannibal knows all about Tooth Fairy ... how? I know the title of this show so there's that, but it just doesn't make sense.

 

Plus Will clearly saw Tooth Fairy in the museum elevator. Why wasn't a photo ID done? Oh, I guess for the same reason that Hannibal's face was never shown on a billboard, Internet site or in the newspaper the whole time he was in Europe eating people.

 

I'm also stymied as to why she isn't facing some sort of criminal charges being the accomplice to Hanniibal. Or does being a junkie let someone off scott-free in European courts?

 

Hannibal has been helping Will from the very first episode in solving crime and catching serial killers. Chatting about the "case of the week" is one of the main things that brought them together and made Will come to trust and depend on Hannibal so much. His conversations with Hannibal about the serial killers always came off as brain storming sessions...

 

It seems like a photo ID has been done, no? Freddie did show the photo and wanted a pic of Will with it. I doubt that is necessarily exclusive to Tattler?

 

I don't really have a big problem with Bedelia managing to walk away free from criminal charges given she claimed to be a victim of Hannibal and that she did not have control over her actions, that she was kidnapped by Hannibal and kept in Italy without her consent and brainwashed by a special mix of drugs so she actually ended up thinking she was really someone else... Especially given Hannibal confirmed her story (he told her he would).

[tennisgurl]

 

Plus Francis has a job, although not explained fully on the show. In the book he's the supervisor or some big shot at that film company.

That is a really good point. If I remember right, in the original story, he could at least pass as kind of normal. He had a job, got into a relationship with the blind woman, seems like a kind of normal guy, who had the psycho underneath. That works a lot better. This guy I feel like people would cross the street to avoid him. 

 

I am not sure I like where they are going with Will. I`ll see what happens next week before I give a full analysis. 

[MisterGlass]

We've seen little of Francis interacting with others outside of Reba.  The clearest indication of how he appears to others are Reba's description of how their coworkers see him and his entry into the museum to see the painting.  Up until he knocked out the archivist, he seemed normal, if reticent.
 

It is getting harder to imagine a heroic ending for Will. If they are in the Inferno, is Purgatory next?

 

Purgatory and Paradise follow, but that's assuming Will makes it out of the Inferno.  The ninth and lowest circle is for traitors.  If Will gives in to Hannibal's attempts to turn him into a copy-cannibal, he will have betrayed himself entirely.  I think he wants Francis to survive and be treated so that he can't e carried any farther into the killer mindset.

 

Because they spelled out that Will is Hannibal's attack lamb.

 

Phrased like that it sounds like a Monty Python sketch :-)

[Madding crowd]

I think I don't like the idea of Hannibal having anything resembling normal, human emotions. I believe he likes to play with people, likes to be challenged and he can be obsessed. In love with just didn't fit with what we know about Hannibal. If they had used words like obsessed, enthralled or consumed with it would make more sense. I simply cannot imagine Hannibal fantasizing about china patterns and long, romantic walks. Of course I'm being facetious but this is going too far.

 

I also don't give the Red Dragon enough credit to see the article by Freddie Lounds and immediately think "Chilton must be Will's pet. I must get rid of him first." I just don't see it. It seems more likely that he would target both of them  one after another and just got to Chilton first. Keep in mind he already targeted Will and planned to kill him. Chilton is just another person on the list.

 

I appreciate the conversations of Bedelia's role and function here, but she doesn't at all seem like a real person. I think it is ok for the bad guys to be larger than life, but everyone can't be or it makes the entire show a fantasy series  which doesn't fit with its  (rare but still there) police procedural story lines. It can be a stretch, but we have seen Will and Jack and even Alana acting like regular humans. We have never seen Bedelia acting in any way but as a fantasy character. I felt the same way about Chiyo in her dungeon of candles. 

 

Mads is a better Hannibal, but what worked with the original movies and books was the idea that Hannibal was larger than life and perhaps not quite believable, but everyone else was a normal person. I would very much like the story to end with Will moving back home and not caring about Hannibal at all, or killing him. Riding off with him in the sunset would be a complete deviation from the characters and story lines IMO.

[Snookums]

Bedelia and Will talked about how Hannibal "gave" Will 3 years to build a family. And I believe during that time, he DID leave Will alone, no postcards or birthday cards trolling to Will like he does with Bedelia.

 

 

While in the meantime he sends "cards on my birthday...and Christian holidays." You'd think that would mean he "loves" Bedelia more, but in actuality, as she realizes, that means he just loves fucking with her more. Her bragging point is that she got away scar/scot free, but secretly she knows that if Hannibal really cares, he marks you. She's too much like him in her sociopathic detachment, but too different in not finding cannibalism attractive. 

 

Bedelia claims that Hannibal was never not her patient. In other words, she wouldn't commit to the relationship. It was wise of her (and it wouldn't have made Hannibal love her more than Will--he'd have only gotten bored faster and cooked her up) but it also means Will has something she'll never have. Slow and steady won her the race for her life, but not Hannibal's regard. 

[dargosmydaddy]

 

If Bedelia doesn't stop. talking. like. this. I will have to simply mute her voice every time she's on screen.

Did anyone else notice that Will was falling into the same speech pattern during one of their sessions? I didn't know whether to laugh or throw something at the screen. (Though I believe that is canon from Red Dragon? Will subconsciously mirroring the speech patterns of others as part of his uber-empathy thing?)

[Captanne]

The problem with Bedelia is that we can't understand her motivations -- we're not given enough by the writers.  Maybe that's why I

 have felt throughout that Bedelia is jealous of Will and that's why she behaves as she does.  I think that's the most credible.  She loved living in Florence (given their setup:  who wouldn't?) but knows it's wrong.

 

And, more importantly, Bedelia is a selfish, adventure junkie.  She loved living on the edge both with Hannibal breathing down her tasty neck and with committing heinous crimes on guests with Hannibal as a co-conspirator.  She enjoyed that.  

 

I think she even enjoyed knowing it was horribly wrong.

 

That's what's ripping her up inside and making her act so controlled.

 

Someone said she's not Will's therapist and they are just having a coffee klatch?  Really?  Was that said?  Because every scene has been a routine doctor's visit, to me.  Blocked and directed the same way all the other therapy sessions between Bedelia/Will, Bedelia/Hannibal, and Alanna/Whoever she treated.

[pasdetrois]

 

Armitage is a wonderful actor, but they need to give him more to do than yoga exercises, beating himself, and making him repeat the line "GREAT. RED. DRAGON."

Honestly, when he was wearing that black net hood and bellowing in that deep voice, I thought "Sylvester Stallone in a church hat."

 

If I had to sit through Bedelia's affected, measured intoning, I'd be glancing at my watch the entire time.

Edited August 24, 2015 by pasdetrois

[Captanne]

Rather than hearing Will assume her diction, I heard Bedelia (for a second) start talking like a normal person.  I remember heaving a sigh and saying, "Oh, bless," and then she went right back.  to.  it.  

 

Lastly, as I was thinking overnight, I'm not sure Hannibal left Will alone during those three years.  Wasn't his whole point of allowing himself to be apprehended to know that Will will always know where he is?  In other words, he doesn't have to contact him proactively.  Just by breathing in that cell, Will knows where he is.  Also, Hannibal wrote Jack that letter of condolence about Bella's death.  Surely he knew Will would be at the funeral?

[Neurochick]

I like listening to Bedelia; she sounds like she's trying to keep her composure and what she really wants to do is start screaming.  

[Crossbow]

For me the two best parts of this episode were:

1. Watching Hannibal still enjoy the FUCK out of his life - they think they took all his toys, but people are his favorite toys.

2. Will looking so pained at realizing he set Chilton up for that. I thought they did that way better than the book did. In the book I felt like everyone was, "Well, that didn't go as planned. What's next?"

 

Alana bugs me more than anyone else on this show. It's like she and Bedelia are having a contest to see who can be the worse psychiatrist. I also have absolutely no idea why Will is seeing Bedelia at all. But I still enjoy Gillian Anderson's delivery. She always sounds like she's walking a tightrope.

[Tippi Blevins]

I wonder how Hannibal is maintaining his personal grooming so well now that he doesn't even have a sink. Does he put his face up to the holes and somebody administers a hot foam shave? I was noticing how clean-shaven and dewy fresh he looked. Nary a hint of five-o-clock shadow.

[Tippi Blevins]

I have no idea why this posted twice. I only clicked the thingie once.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Tippi Blevins

[Crossbow]

I wonder how Hannibal is maintaining his personal grooming so well now that he doesn't even have a sink. Does he put his face up to the holes and somebody administers a hot foam shave? I was noticing how clean-shaven and dewy fresh he looked. Nary a hint of five-o-clock shadow.

 

I guess they could pass an electric razor through the way they do the phone, but I don't know why Alana would allow that if she doesn't allow him a toilet. They must hose him down once a week, which is probably a major production but I think there are health laws that you have to.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Crossbow

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Glare Of Publicity / The 'good guys' try to draw out Dolarhyde. A whole heap of fear-and-loathing side-eye is the result.

[Crossbow]

I'm so conflicted about the expression of 'love' between Will and Hannibal.   I read slash all the time, so I like the idea of M/M action, but there is no atom in my body that imagines W&H in a sexual situation or has any desire to see fanart or fanfic of them.  What I see onscreen is titillating, but my imagination stops there.  However, I wouldn't balk at a tender kiss.  So confused!

 

I totally read Hannibal/Will slash, so I hope they DON'T do that on the show because for me slash is no fun if it's canon. In fact with fan fic in general, for me the fun is "what if this instead of this?"

 

That said, the way I see it is that Hannibal is after Will's soul, and if he thought sexual seduction would get him what he wants, he would totally use it. But Will's straight so Hannibal has to use every other kind of seduction. I don't think Hannibal can distinguish "in love with" from "wants possession of."

 

He does, however, have a very solid grasp of "If I can't have you, no one can."

Edited August 24, 2015 by Crossbow

[crowswork]

The worst thing was that I had to watch it On Demand. No FF. I had to watch McEnroe hawking prescription toe-nail juice.  I'm shouting at the TV - "Just use Vicks - It'll cure it"

[poppy-]

The amazing thing about the Bedelia / Will conversations is that neither person EVER blinks.  They just stare at each other while talking slowly. I imagine they have interns on the set to administer eye drops after long shots.

 

Comedy is harder than drama, and I imagine it's not that hard to talk slow and act intense.  But this was a well acted hour anyway. 

 

Richard Armitage is doing an amazing physical performance in a cerebral show, a feral performance in a controlled show.  It's interesting.

The actor who plays Chilton (I almost wrote "Raul Emanual" but that's not right) really made his character sympathetic.  I felt like I was in that chair; he did what I would have done.  He tried so hard.  For all his hubris and foolishness, he was smart enough to know what to do.  It just didn't matter.  It was a memorable performance.

 

And Mads gets an award for conveying absolute glee while remaining still and calm.  That's a rare gift too.

[Crossbow]

BTW, after watching episode this with my friends, one of them asked, "Can we please watch something less gorey now? Like Game of Thrones?"

[atir]

When Chilton woke up in the wheelchair, he said his back really hurt. Was his back glued to the chair? I thought he had been tattooed perhaps.

[Brattinella]

When Chilton woke up in the wheelchair, he said his back really hurt. Was his back glued to the chair? I thought he had been tattooed perhaps.

 

EVERYTHING was glued to the chair.  I really don't remember anything else being done to Chilton beforehand (in the book).

[FormerMod-a1]

He wondered if he had been burned, they we saw the glue.  The chemicals in that glue must have been potent and maybe were slowly burning him via a chemical burn.

[saber5055]

When Chilton woke up in the wheelchair, he said his back really hurt. Was his back glued to the chair?

 

 

I assumed his back was broken, in the same way in which he said, via Dragon's tape, that Dragon would break Will's back.

 

Although it's my thinking that if one has a broken back, one cannot feel anything. But then again, a person set on fire to burn for ... HOW LONG? would not be able to speak much less see or even have eyelids to open. Or, even be alive. So there's that.

Edited August 24, 2015 by saber5055

[Captanne]

I was thinking, if Chilton really was in that condition he'd be in so much pain that they would put him in a Ketamine coma (thanks, House, MD!)  Even if he could talk with no lips, he would be intentionally unconscious so -- no wakee, no talkee.

[morgankobi]

I agree that many people share some level of blame for what happened to Chilton, but when Alana told Hannibal it was his fault because he challenged his ideas with the journal article, I snorted at her. The hell? That's a few too many steps away.

[queenanne]

I assumed his back was broken, in the same way in which he said, via Dragon's tape, that Dragon would break Will's back.

 

Although it's my thinking that if one has a broken back, one cannot feel anything. But then again, a person set on fire to burn for ... HOW LONG? would not be able to speak much less see or even have eyelids to open. Or, even be alive. So there's that.

 

I thought it/he was signifying he had been flayed of a big ol' flap of skin, though maybe that's the Silence of the Lambs talking.