Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[Shannon L.]

 

I understand his relevance and his friendship with Steve, but I just don't really care about him. The internet's obsession with him will forever be a mystery to me.

The reason he's my favorite is because of his relevance to Steve and because of what Grace19 said:

 

Bucky is a tragic character, brain washed and turned into an assassin against his will and sebastain is hot, i get why people love him

 

Another thing for me is that there were some director's choices that make him one of my favorite villains:  his costume, the intensity of his scenes (which also had a lot to do with choreography--when he whipped around and caught the shield?  Damn.--and the musical score surrounding his scenes).  Everything about and around him, for me, was captivating and, imo, just about perfect.  But, what really sold me on the Winter Soldier/Bucky was one simple line:  "I knew him".  The second time he said it, his face said so much more. 

[stealinghome]

And, let's be honest, the comics doing that mess in the first place... Steve keeping it in the family is a bit on the unsavory side. Initially Sharon was just Peggy's younger sister! (Because it hadn't been 70 years when they defrosted in in the pages.)

Times have changed and so have the demographics of the audience. It's just not cool to be all 'Well, now you're old so I'm going to start going out with your younger, hotter, blonder niece, 'kay?' I actually think that Steve's continued devotion to Peggy in the MCU is beautiful but it's also something that makes me wonder exactly how Sharon fits into it when all is said and done.

Have to agree here. I don't really ship Steve with anyone in the present day, so it's not a scorned shipper thing, but Sharon/Steve does make me a little uneasy because of the Peggy connection. I do appreciate that CA:TWS established a mutual flirtation way before Steve learned she was Peggy's (great-?) niece, since it at least relieves some of the pressure off the "he only likes her because of Peggy" school of thought (though you have to wonder what SHARON has been thinking), but unfortunately they just didn't interact enough in TWS for the audience to feel like there's a solid pre-ID reveal foundation there imo. Edited April 14, 2016 by stealinghome

[angora]

Another thing for me is that there were some director's choices that make him one of my favorite villains:  his costume, the intensity of his scenes (which also had a lot to do with choreography--when he whipped around and caught the shield?  Damn.--and the musical score surrounding his scenes).  Everything about and around him, for me, was captivating and, imo, just about perfect.  But, what really sold me on the Winter Soldier/Bucky was one simple line:  "I knew him".  The second time he said it, his face said so much more. 

ITA with this.  On the direction/choreography, I adore the way he fights in TWS like an absolute animal.  He just never stops coming, and that lethal single-mindedness shows you how much he's not his own person at this point.  There's no sense of self-preservation or falling back to regroup because the fascists who've warped his brain don't leave any room for that.  And as for "I knew him"?  Oh my, yes - gets me every time.  Sebastian Stan hasn't had a whole lot yet to work with in terms of character development, but, having been a fan of his since his wonderful work in Kings, I have every confidence that he can handle whatever they throw at him.

[Grace19]

The reviews are coming in and they are great! This movie is the bomb, can't wait.

[VCRTracking]

Out of Birth.Movies.Death Devin Faraci's VERY positive spoiler free review I like this part:

 

Captain America and Iron Man, characters whose arcs have, over the course of these movies, brought them past each other and left them swapping places, have a final fist fight that actually hurts to watch for one simple reason:

 

They're both right.

 

This is the part I have to stress more than anything else. Besides all of the gymnastics the Russos are doing in Civil War - servicing the arcs of a dozen players (and EVERY Avenger gets an arc), creating thrilling action sequences, setting up new characters for their own movies, laying the groundwork for Infinity War - they also manage to create a central conflict in which both men are right. By the end of the movie, by that nasty, harsh final fight, that conflict has transcended the ideological and become emotional in unexpected ways, but you still have the same feeling: both of these guys are right. And you would like for them to stop fighting now, please. But, as The Winter Soldier wearily intones at one point, “It always ends in a fight.”

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2016 by VCRTracking

[tennisgurl]

I cannot wait! I just cannot wait, this sounds amazing and I need it in my life right now! NOW!

[Jazzy24]

My Steve and Tony :-( I just hope Steve's face don't get hurt to bad.

[Advance35]

Can't wait.  It doesn't sound like Natasha will have much to do this movie (sigh), at least not from the reviews that have been released, but it still sounds like it's going to be awesome.

[BatmanBeatles]

I cannot wait! I just cannot wait, this sounds amazing and I need it in my life right now! NOW!

Yes, we need to wash the bad taste of that other movie out of our mouths.

[Danny Franks]

Not to mention that Bucky was what when he was introduced? 14?  So people want Cap to have been diddling a young teen?

 

That certainly seems to be what people want to be the case between Batman and Robin. The idea of Bruce Wayne adopting a 12 year old boy and grooming him to be a sexual partner should be utterly revolting, yet it clearly revs the motors of plenty of people.

 

Of course, I've also seen people who claim to ship Dick Grayson and Damian Wayne, despite Damian being ten years old, so... yeah, the internet is full of freaks.

 

Bucky has been reinvented a couple of times. Brubaker brought him back and set him up as... what, a teenaged wetworks operative? But, you know, comics are comics... retcons galore. It's the nature of the beast. The Ultimates universe had him be more along the lines of what he is in the MCU.

 

Yeah. Brubaker thought, as did Stan Lee (which is one of the reasons he retroactively killed Bucky off when reintroducing Cap to the Marvel universe) that kid sidekicks were a dumb idea, from a narrative point of view. Kid sidekicks are almost exclusively a DC thing, with Bucky and Rick Jones being the only real exceptions. But Brubaker figured that having a kid in a warzone was even more irresponsible, so aged Bucky a couple of years and just had him be a soldier. One who displayed great competency for infiltration and wetwork, who was placed under Cap's command. An incredibly simple reinvention, which worked brilliantly.

 

I do like the MCU version of them as childhood friends, and think that gives them an even stronger friendship than the comic books did. But I guess two guys can't be friends at all without some people wishing they were fucking each other.

 

And I really wish they'd use the Bucky/Nat stuff, in some way. Even if only to have them forge a bit of a friendship in this movie. It's sad that they're so intent on ignoring it, when it's one of the best written comic book romances I can remember. One that was genuinely between two equals, both with significant baggage and damage, both happy to support each other through anything.

[Advance35]

And I really wish they'd use the Bucky/Nat stuff, in some way. Even if only to have them forge a bit of a friendship in this movie. It's sad that they're so intent on ignoring it, when it's one of the best written comic book romances I can remember. One that was genuinely between two equals, both with significant baggage and damage, both happy to support each other through anything.

 

Ditto.  While this movie sounds awesome, I would love it even more then  I probably already will (forgive grammar) if they went with the comics storyline (not the romance, since that ship has sailed)  the early days of Winter Soldier's time on the side of the angels. 

 

For a little while, Winter Soldier was doing the heroic thing and Natasha was his liason.   In the MCU they could have a John Steed and Emma Peel kind of rapport.   Though when I think about it, I'm not sure how such a character evolution could be displayed since neither of these two will be getting their own movies anytime soon.  Sigh.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Advance35

[VCRTracking]

They showed a new clip on Kimmel last night of Team Iron Man fighting Bucky and Natasha says something at the end that shippers could interpret as a previous relationship but I just think she was just referring to their encounter in the last Captain America movie(the clip is right at the beginning of this video):

Edited April 14, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Bruinsfan]

I do like the MCU version of them as childhood friends, and think that gives them an even stronger friendship than the comic books did. But I guess two guys can't be friends at all without some people wishing they were fucking each other.

To be fair, Sebastian Stan played that goodbye scene at the Stark Expo in the first movie as if he'd rather have sent their dates home and had Steve give him a last hurrah before shipping out, so I don't think people who ship the two characters are completely inventing the idea out of thin air.

[Danny Franks]

To be fair, Sebastian Stan played that goodbye scene at the Stark Expo in the first movie as if he'd rather have sent their dates home and had Steve give him a last hurrah before shipping out, so I don't think people who ship the two characters are completely inventing the idea out of thin air.

 

Well that's not the way I saw it at all. It depends on what you're looking for, I suppose. To me it looked like he was honestly worried that this best friend was going to do something stupid, and wished he could be around to stop it. It also looked like he was off for a threesome with the two girls, to have his own last hurrah before shipping out.

 

That line from Natasha has me very intrigued, I must say. She wouldn't care if he recognised her from having shot her twice before, I don't think. She sounds more bitter than I'd expect. But I'd wager it's just another bait and switch by Marvel, to give fans something to talk about. Cool scene, though. Bucky is a badass, and both Sharon and Nat look tough as nails, there. Tony? Well he's a middle aged playboy with a super suit, so he really shouldn't have lasted even that long.

[Trini]

What did Natasha say in that clip? I couldn't make out the whole thing.

[Danny Franks]

What did Natasha say in that clip? I couldn't make out the whole thing.

 

"You could at least recognise me."

 

As I say, it seems too pointed to just be saying, 'dickhead, you shot me twice before. At least do me the courtesy of remembering before you beat me up'. The way Scarlett Johansson delivers that line seems more personal and bitter. But I wouldn't be surprised if that's the single nod in the movie to a potential history between them.

 

However, I still think that Natasha's line about love being for children from the Avengers could easily be worked into a version of their comic book history. I just don't think Marvel will do it.

[VCRTracking]

Again I like the teamwork shown in these clips. Tony goes in first to disarm Bucky, then Sharon and Natasha try to take him out together.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm already seeing angry rage on tumblr. I feel like I need a bag of popcorn to munch on as I watch a zillion factions of the mcu fandom implode.

So I take it that that clip is earlier in the movie?

Edited April 14, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Zuleikha]

However, I still think that Natasha's line about love being for children from the Avengers could easily be worked into a version of their comic book history. I just don't think Marvel will do it.

 

This is why I can't get excited about Marvel movies. They are very well done and they tell the stories that they're telling very well. But it feels like if they have multiple options for storytelling and one option would reduce a female superheroine's role vis a vis her comic's story and others wouldn't, they go with option A every time. 

 

I am glad that per reviews, the movie doesn't end up picking Cap's side as the obviously moral and right one (in part because I'm actually on Tony's in what's known of this particular conflict).

Edited April 14, 2016 by Zuleikha

[Danny Franks]

I'm already seeing angry rage on tumblr. I feel like I need a bag of popcorn to munch on as I watch a zillion factions of the mcu fandom implode.

 

What sort of rage? Thwarted 'shipper rage, because Steve likes a girl, or because Natasha said something to Bucky? Or is it just a continuation of the rage about Tony and Steve not getting on (though they're another popular 'ship, I believe)?

[jellysalmon]

It feels strange to me that Natasha is on Tony's side. I felt more connection between her and Steve in previous films.

Also I really hope they don't develop the (Avenger Romance Spoilers)

Scarlet Witch x Vision

romance. It never worked for me.

[HoodlumSheep]

What sort of rage? Thwarted 'shipper rage, because Steve likes a girl, or because Natasha said something to Bucky? Or is it just a continuation of the rage about Tony and Steve not getting on (though they're another popular 'ship, I believe)?

Mainly thwarted shipper rage. :P Edited April 14, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[VCRTracking]

It feels strange to me that Natasha is on Tony's side. I felt more connection between her and Steve in previous films.

 

It's not about which members are closer friends but who agrees on what side of the issue. As Scarlet Johannson says in this video Natasha's torn and she while her relationship with Steve makes it where she wants to reason with him but also sees that Tony's a "path of least resistance"

Edited April 14, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Spartan Girl]

Awesome clip!

A little surprised EVC came out with Team Iron Man, but honestly I think that was the only date they could get her on the show and they just made a joke of it.

[jellysalmon]

I guess that makes sense. I know her origins in the MCU are different from the comics but I've always thought of her as a Soviet defector. Soviet defectors in my mind would be against big government control. 

[VCRTracking]

Big government control of it's citizens, not of an armed force which the Avengers are. Plus she went from being with the KGB to working for SHIELD instead of going on her own.

 

Here's an extended version of the fight vs Bucky scene but with the Black Panther in action!

 

Oh and I checked IMDB and Hope Davis is cast as Tony's mother Maria Stark. Probably in a flashback.

Edited April 14, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Trini]

Here's an extended version of the fight vs Bucky scene but with the Black Panther in action!

 

Editing could be better, but Black Panther, squeee!

[Morrigan2575]

So it's confirmed, right? He's a vampire. Dark hair, fair skin, smoldering good looks, from Romania. (Granted, I know that Transylvania is on the opposite side of the country from where Sebastian was born but why bother with semantics?)

I was just in Romania...actually Transylvania last Halloween...sadly i didn't see any Sebastian Stan looking Vampires :(

[Shannon L.]

My mechanic is from Transylvania. If he looked like Sebastian Stan, I'd make sure there was a problem with my car every other week.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Shannon L.

[calliope1975]

but Black Panther, squeee!

 

I am so excited to see BP in this. I can't say I was thrilled when Chadwick Boseman was cast, (I was rooting for Aldis Hodge) but he looks great.

[Rick Kitchen]

It makes me wonder why Natasha, with the Soviet background she has, would join with the authoritarian side.  Unless it's just what she feels comfortable with.

 

According to Entertainment Weekly, 

Black Panther is neither Team Cap nor Team Iron Man, he's just pissed at Bucky, apparently because he feels Bucky is responsible for his father's death.

[stealinghome]

It makes me wonder why Natasha, with the Soviet background she has, would join with the authoritarian side.  Unless it's just what she feels comfortable with.

Ditto. The movie really needs to devote a lot of time to Natasha's thought process here, because she more than anyone really should know the danger of signing, as Steve says, "your right to choose" away to faceless government entities with their own agendas. Between the Red Room and the fall of SHIELD, Nat more than anyone else on the team should be extremely suspicious of governmental control, not all rah-rah for it. Everyone else who's important, I get why they're on the side they're on to some degree, but Natasha is the one whose decision I need to see fleshed out (especially since she and Steve are tight).

 

I'm fearful we're not going to get that explanation, though, in part because I actually don't think the Russo brothers understand Natasha particularly well.

[Grace19]

I don't think natasha is going to get much focus here, shame. I hope they hint buck/nat and flesh it out in infinity war.

About the stucky ship, i didnt ship them in the first cap movie. But in the WS, the feels were really there. Change the sex of any of them with the same storyline and i bet you that most would assume they have feelings for each other, so no some are not just seeing what they want to see.

The shipping war on tumblr is stupid, disgusting and entertaining at the same time. Some people take this movie way too seriously.

Black panther and bucky are so badass in that clip. I wish they can be friends at the end of this movie. I'm still pissed we would get spiderman solo before black panther solo, now we have to wait two years.

[Danny Franks]

About the stucky ship, i didnt ship them in the first cap movie. But in the WS, the feels were really there. Change the sex of any of them with the same storyline and i bet you that most would assume they have feelings for each other, so no some are not just seeing what they want to see.

 

They do have feelings for each other. They're best friends, and have been their entire lives, and besides that, Steve has believed that Bucky's been dead for seventy years. What people want to see is romantic/sexual desire and love between them, but it's not there. Because both characters are written as straight (Steve through his relationship with Peggy, and Bucky through dating women and his immediate interest in Peggy when he met her). Yeah, you could change it so one was a straight woman, and one a straight man, and their dynamic changes. It's inevitable that it would. But people getting bent out of shape when two straight guys don't hook up, and instead may choose to hook up with women, is ridiculous to me. 

 

The Peggy issue is different, because Sharon is her relative (and was actually originally Peggy's younger sister in the comics, so that wouldn't have gone down well). But Peggy lived a full and apparently happy life, why shouldn't Steve be allowed to search for that himself? 

 

Ditto. The movie really needs to devote a lot of time to Natasha's thought process here, because she more than anyone really should know the danger of signing, as Steve says, "your right to choose" away to faceless government entities with their own agendas. Between the Red Room and the fall of SHIELD, Nat more than anyone else on the team should be extremely suspicious of governmental control, not all rah-rah for it. Everyone else who's important, I get why they're on the side they're on to some degree, but Natasha is the one whose decision I need to see fleshed out (especially since she and Steve are tight).

 

 

 

The Winter Soldier did lay some groundwork for Natasha's decision, when she opted to reveal her secrets as part of foiling Pierce's plan. So she's already made the decision not to be hidden away and private any more. You can let that grow into a belief that this secrecy has been one of the major downfalls of SHIELD and, by extension, would undermine anything the Avengers try to do. But I agree that they need to let her voice that belief.

 

If they delve more into her backstory, then incorporating the Red Room stuff as her own personal experience of secret government operations strengthens the idea that she thinks openness (or glasnost, if you will) is the best course of action for the Avengers and for other superpowered individuals. But there's a thin line between wanting openness and enforcing it. If you enforce it, you're no longer on the side of the angels, and I'd hope that Natasha, of all people, can recognise that.

 

Tony I give a pass, so far, because his head is up his own arse most of the time, and when he thinks he's right, he's going to be an obnoxious dick about it. That's just who he is.

[VCRTracking]

From the reviews both sides are right and both sides are stubborn about it.

Edited April 15, 2016 by VCRTracking

[MadyGirl1987]

Oh and I checked IMDB and Hope Davis is cast as Tony's mother Maria Stark. Probably in a flashback.

Cool! I am hoping that means they are going to play up the fact that Bucky killed Tony's parents and the conflict coming from that. That fact has just too much potential emotion and tension behind it to pass up.

[dkb]

I got to see an advance screening yesterday night in Toronto, and this movie is awesome. So so good.  Everyone is used so perfectly, and the conflict is emotional and earned.

 

I was trying to be mature but I really wanted to squee so hard when Spiderman shows up (but I controlled myself), and Paul Rudd is the best. 

 

I absolutely loved it!!! I was Team Cap going in, but after watching the movie I can understand and sympathize with Team Iron Man.

 

We only got one post credit scene. 

[Dandesun]

By the sounds of it, being #TeamHugItOut sounds like a totally viable option.

[Spartan Girl]

I got to see an advance screening yesterday night in Toronto, and this movie is awesome. So so good.  Everyone is used so perfectly, and the conflict is emotional and earned.

 

I was trying to be mature but I really wanted to squee so hard when Spiderman shows up (but I controlled myself), and Paul Rudd is the best. 

 

I absolutely loved it!!! I was Team Cap going in, but after watching the movie I can understand and sympathize with Team Iron Man.

 

We only got one post credit scene.

Do we get a shirtless Steve scene? I have to ask :D

[Shannon L.]

 

I got to see an advance screening yesterday night in Toronto, and this movie is awesome. So so good.  Everyone is used so perfectly, and the conflict is emotional and earned.

dkb, if you have a minute, can you do me a favor and hop over to the "Movie going experiences" thread and find my question (it's on the last page) about the 4D theater?  I'd love your opinion on it, please.

 

 

Do we get a shirtless Steve scene? I have to ask :D

I think many of us would like to know the answer to that one  :)

Edited April 16, 2016 by Shannon L.

[vb68]

 

The Winter Soldier did lay some groundwork for Natasha's decision, when she opted to reveal her secrets as part of foiling Pierce's plan. So she's already made the decision not to be hidden away and private any more.

 

I thought it did an excellent job of showing her  point of view and rationale.   I could see her supporting Steve simply for personal reasons, but I'm pleased that it sounds like they are keeping her consistent in her thinking about having checks on power and wanting things open and public.   

 

I have always favored Captain America as a character, but yeah, it's hard to argue against some kind of checks and balances.

Edited April 16, 2016 by vb68

[Kromm]

Ditto. The movie really needs to devote a lot of time to Natasha's thought process here, because she more than anyone really should know the danger of signing, as Steve says, "your right to choose" away to faceless government entities with their own agendas. 

How would this movie have "a lot of time" to devote to ANY character though?  It would have to be 4 hours long.

[dkb]

Do we get a shirtless Steve scene? I have to ask :D

 

 

dkb, if you have a minute, can you do me a favor and hop over to the "Movie going experiences" thread and find my question (it's on the last page) about the 4D theater?  I'd love your opinion on it, please.

 

I think many of us would like to know the answer to that one  :)

Just putting it in spoiler tag to be safe.

 

I'm replaying the movie back in my mind, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news and say... NO. I''m 99% sure of this unless my brain exploded seeing his shirtlessness and I didn't process it.

 

Shannon L. going over to the other thread now.

[Spartan Girl]

*screaming angrily into a pillow*

It had BETTER be in the next movie. Unless...no. No. I don't want to know about *that* potential spoiler yet.

[Shannon L.]

 

Ditto. The movie really needs to devote a lot of time to Natasha's thought process here, because she more than anyone really should know the danger of signing, as Steve says, "your right to choose" away to faceless government entities with their own agendas.

How would this movie have "a lot of time" to devote to ANY character though?  It would have to be 4 hours long.

Which is why we need a Black Widow movie, damnit.  I saw something the other day that said they were now considering one.  God, I hope so.

[Vikitty]

I'm so upset because 

Pepper and Tony have broken up. It stings especially since Empire mistakenly reported that Pepper was actually going to be in the movie after test audiences asked where she was and they did reshoots. So, apparently the audience asked and the writers were like 'Oh, shit, uh, they broke up?' GDI. Those two were the most long-standing relationship in the entire MCU.

 

[tennisgurl]

These spoiler tags are causing me pain. I want to click, but I am trying to limit myself to just vague spoilers. But...its hard!

[dkb]

I'm so upset because 

Pepper and Tony have broken up. It stings especially since Empire mistakenly reported that Pepper was actually going to be in the movie after test audiences asked where she was and they did reshoots. So, apparently the audience asked and the writers were like 'Oh, shit, uh, they broke up?' GDI. Those two were the most long-standing relationship in the entire MCU.

 

Valerie, have you seen the movie? Just wanted to confirm because I wanted to say something about what you put in the spoiler tag, but want to make sure that I'm not spoiling anything. I'm assuming you did, but want to make sure.

 

These spoiler tags are causing me pain. I want to click, but I am trying to limit myself to just vague spoilers. But...its hard!

 

Tennisgurl, I feel ya! Usually that's exactly how I feel, and my family makes fun of me for agonizing over clicking the spoilers or not. 

Edited April 16, 2016 by dkb

[Vikitty]

Valerie, have you seen the movie? Just wanted to confirm because I wanted to say something about what you put in the spoiler tag, but want to make sure that I'm not spoiling anything. I'm assuming you did, but want to make sure.

 

These spoiler tags are causing me pain. I want to click, but I am trying to limit myself to just vague spoilers. But...its hard!

 

Tennisgurl, I feel ya! Usually that's exactly how I feel, and my family makes fun of me for agonizing over clicking the spoilers or not. 

I haven't seen it personally, but I've been creeping the Reddit threads shamelessly after the first stirrings were reported by people who saw the premiere.

[Grace19]

I couldnt wait and have read all the spoilers I came across. I know, I have no shame and I regret nothing, lol.