Gender On Television: It's Like Feminism Never Happened

[Rick Kitchen]

Yeah, but that story had nothing to do with the real Nancy Drew, it was just a character called Nancy Drew.

[DearEvette]

15 hours ago, lordonia said:

* Because as a tween, Nancy was one of my heroes and I figured CBS would screw it up.

 

11 hours ago, Rick Kitchen said:

Yeah, but that story had nothing to do with the real Nancy Drew, it was just a character called Nancy Drew.

 

Yup.  I thought they screwed it up the minute they announced she was gonna be a cop.  Since it was CBS you knew it was just gonna be another cop/police procedural, nothing essentially Nancy about it.

When they first announced they were basing something off Nancy Drew and making her older, I thought it would be closer to the Phryne Fisher stuff..  an older rich socialite who solves crimes.  Also with a cool car.  Nancy had a cool blue roadster.

[Princess Sparkle]

28 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

 

 

Yup.  I thought they screwed it up the minute they announced she was gonna be a cop.  Since it was CBS you knew it was just gonna be another cop/police procedural, nothing essentially Nancy about it.

When they first announced they were basing something off Nancy Drew and making her older, I thought it would be closer to the Phryne Fisher stuff..  an older rich socialite who solves crimes.  Also with a cool car.  Nancy had a cool blue roadster.

That would've been awesome.  I'm of two minds on the Nancy Drew "reboot" - on the one hand, I felt like Veronica Mars was already a pretty good modern-day version of Nancy Drew, so I'm not sure what a new reboot would've accomplished.  On the other hand, not going forward with it because it's "too female" is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard.

[vibeology]

I think the difference between Veronica Mars and Nancy Drew is that VM dealt with class issues from the point of view of someone on the bottom. Nancy's always been very well-to-do, almost like an escapist fantasy. Doing modern older Nancy Drew should, IMO, feel sleek like White Collar only with a very, very good person at the heart of the story. There is a way to doing something very cool, sexy and fun with Nancy Drew and unlike CBS, I don't see why that would only appeal to women.

[possibilities]

Someone help me; I'm becoming a Chuck Lorre fan.

Tonight, after the season finale of "Mom" he posted the following:

 

Quote

Thank you for watching the season finale of Mom. We are all deeply grateful for your support. That being said, I've been told by some worried Warner Bros. executives that the show does not do as well with men as it does with women. As you can imagine, this is cause for concern. From the very first episode, our purpose was to cause laughter and, when appropriate, touch on some serious subjects. It was never our intent to exclude an entire gender. So where did we go wrong? Is it possible that the title "Mom" pushed male viewers away? Should we have named the show "Alcoholic Nymphos"? Seems a little extreme. Perhaps we should consider starting next season with a series of wacky Ferrari-driving, gun-toting NFL players who love them? Hmmm... maybe. Or can we simply continue to make the show we love and the show we're proud of, knowing that nothing good ever came from pandering to people's baser instincts. Except for Two and a Half Men. That was pretty good.

Edited May 20, 2016 by possibilities

[CoderLady]

The part of my brain that used to like TV sitcoms got permanently burnt out years ago, but that quote makes me wish I could still enjoy the stuff. Well done!

[Wiendish Fitch]

Dammit, Chuck Lorre, don't make me like you!

[Bastet]

Mom is such an outlier for him, I'm partially convinced he has a good twin and that's who is running the show.

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

Mom is such an outlier for him, I'm partially convinced he has a good twin and that's who is running the show.

It's an outlier for present day him but I think it fits with the him that did Grace Under Fire and Cybill.

[Bastet]

Yeah, but there he had Cybill Shepherd and Brett Butler with Executive Producer power fighting against the sexist stuff.  There's no obvious equivalent check and balance for him with Mom, which is why it took me a while to give it a try despite loving the cast; I figured it would be typical "Lorre left to his own devices" output, which I've never enjoyed.  I don't know a lot about Dottie Dartland Zicklin, co-creator of Dharma & Greg and one of its EPs, but she had been a writer and producer on both Cybill and Grace Under Fire, so while that's another Lorre show I liked, I don't think of it as a "Lorre left to his own devices" show.

Basically, once he got to where he was pretty much THE show-runner on his shows, and there really wasn't any estrogen in the executive producer circle, his shows became utterly unwatchable to me -- until Mom.  So I guess I'm suspicious/wary of him still.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Bastet

[ParadoxLost]

20 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Dammit, Chuck Lorre, don't make me like you!

CBS is getting a ton of flack for not picking up Nancy Drew because its too female.  They are getting flack for every show they did pick up having a white male lead.

I put forth that Lorre is subversively doing damage control for CBS.  Its brilliant in not mentioning the network.  Its Warner Bros., not CBS that thinks the show it too female.  Come watch my show, I support women.  I didn't mention its on CBS, did I?  But those of you who watch CBS know.    Those of you that don't can look it up.

I'm kidding.  Maybe.

[possibilities]

Men are sabotaging the online reviews of TV shows aimed at women:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/men-are-sabotaging-the-online-reviews-of-tv-shows-aimed-at-women/

[Jack Shaftoe]

People take IMDB user ratings seriously? May I ask why?

Also, Make It or Break It has 22% male viewers? There goes my suspicion that I am the only man in the world who watched it. :)

Seriously, nothing in this article shows there is any "sabotaging" going on, just people giving low ratings. Sabotaging suggests deliberately giving a low ratings to shows you either haven't watched or don't really consider to be truly that bad. It's unfortunate that men are less likely to be open-minded towards shows aimed at women than vice versa but you don't really need any research to know that this is the case. It's not sabotage but the "I don't want people to think I might actually be enjoying anything girly" factor is probably one of the main reasons for the ratings disparity. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by Jack Shaftoe

[proserpina65]

43 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

People take IMDB user ratings seriously? May I ask why?

Also, Make It or Break It has 22% male viewers? There goes my suspicion that I am the only man in the world who watched it. :)

Seriously, nothing in this article shows there is any "sabotaging" going on, just people giving low ratings. Sabotaging suggests deliberately giving a low ratings to shows you either haven't watched or don't really consider to be truly that bad. It's unfortunate that men are less likely to be open-minded towards shows aimed at women than vice versa but you don't really need any research to know that this is the case. It's not sabotage but the "I don't want people to think I might actually be enjoying anything girly" factor is probably one of the main reasons for the ratings disparity. 

Plus, Sex and the City WAS dreadful.  (And I am a woman, so I guess I have the right to say that.)

[CoderLady]

I can see a guy tuning in to a girly show and conceding the obvious, which is that it isn't for him, but to go to the trouble to review it when he's not the target audience? And for guys to be doing this in large numbers? That gives me a headache. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

You can rate shows on IMDB without writing a review, it takes about five seconds. Not exactly a great effort.

[CoderLady]

Darn. I should have said "rate." Still, pissing on other peoples' fun when there's no good reason to do so boggles my tiny mind.

[proserpina65]

16 hours ago, CoderLady said:

Darn. I should have said "rate." Still, pissing on other peoples' fun when there's no good reason to do so boggles my tiny mind.

If they watched the show and didn't like it, they have every right to rate it on IMDB, regardless of whether or not they were the target audience.  Now, if they didn't watch it and are rating it poorly just to be asses, well that's different.  (Same goes for women rating shows aimed at male viewers.)  But since there's not way to be sure who did/didn't actually watch a show, it's a bit much to claim that men are only rating 'women's' shows poorly just because they're men.

For the record, I am a woman who loathed Sex and the City.  I don't have an account on IMDB and so therefore don't rate shows there, but if I did, SATC would get the lowest possible ratings from me.  I wouldn't, however, advocate the banning of it or similar shows just because I hated it.

[vibeology]

SATC is an interesting one because I do think for the most part is was a "good" show but I did not enjoy many parts of it. I think the acting was always good to superb. Kim Cattrall and Cynthia Nixon were always on fire and SJP and Kritstin Davis were also always very strong. The guest stars were also top notch from start to finish. The costuming was often ridiculous but in ways that did help build up each character and made a statement about who each woman was. I don't remember a poorly directed episode. They used music well. The editing between each character's plot was always crisp and easy to follow. Plots were dense and often hit the right emotional beats and each character spoke with an authentic voice. But I hated the plot choices the show made and by about the third season, I hated Carrie as a character and I don't think I was supposed to. That to me is the show's failing. They thought we'd be charmed by quirky Carrie, but I found her to be spoiled, self-centered and irresponsible. So I think it's a well-made show and I cannot say its a bad show, but for me it wasn't a successful show and I didn't like it. And I don't think I'm alone in that feeling.

It's a very divisive show and I'm not surprised at it's odd ratings. Women are giving it on average an 8.1 while men rank it 5.8. That's below average for a show according to the article but I don't think that's a sign of sabotage. People who love it tend to love it while people who hate it tend to hate it. That's just the sort of show it is because the characters were so big.

[joelene]

Well said, vibeology. I also fall somewhere in between. I love it and I hate it. Many developments, characters, character choices, reactions so forth and et cetera were just the worst and many of them were fantastic (and fantastically funny). I also grew to hate Carrie for the most part but Miranda and Samantha never failed to make me laugh. Charlotte was always somewhere in between, but they all had good or bad moments. I don't know how I'd rate it but a 7 for me seems about right, personally. 

[possibilities]

I think the article's use of the word "sabotage" is obscuring the main point of the article, which is that men (at least as far as IMDB ratings go) are much more negative about programs women prefer, than women are about "male-preferred" programming. It doesn't have to be that men are making a deliberate attempt to ruin the ratings out of malice, but if the data is generalizable, this situation would tend to have a ratings negative impact as a side effect.

[memememe76]

You see that with things like Twilight, Justin Bieber, One Direction, etc. Whether one thinks they're good or bad, anything more popular among females tend to be seen as even worse than whatever trash is more popular among males. 

[maraleia]

Check out this really good chart of all the deaths this past season http://www.vox.com/a/tv-deaths-lgbt-diversity

[Trini]

Cool chart! I'm already sending in a few omissions.

[dargosmydaddy]

In addition to omissions, there's at least one unconfirmed death listed 

Spoiler

Jack on Agent Carter

[Trini]

6 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

In addition to omissions, there's at least one unconfirmed death listed 

  Hide contents

Jack on Agent Carter

Yeah saw that too, I guess since the show is not renewed, they are counting it as permanent.

[possibilities]

Article addressing the role of advertising in the "too female" issue (also about other things; the female part is about halfway in): http://www.vox.com/2016/5/19/11692090/tv-diversity-cbs-too-female-univision

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Y'know, I'm not one of these people who insists on seeing sexism everywhere. I don't think all men are evil misogynists who should rot in hell, or that we can create equality by throwing everything male-centric into the garbage. I don't buy the concept that a woman is 'less strong' because she gets involved with a man. Few things are as simple as 'Us Good, Them Bad!'

That said, let's talk Rizzoli & Isles.

The series ends next week, and for those of you who haven't seen the rumblings of discontent in the forum here or anywhere else, We Are Not Amused. The writers have

pulled an eleventh hour "love interest" out of their collective butts for Jane, and that's in addition to having her quit the force and take a job as an FBI instructor and move to Washington

. Not sure how much I should spoiler since I don't know who watches and reads this thread, but given the site's policy I'll spoiler it all just to be safe.

Forget Rizzles for a minute. I ship it like whoa, and its one of the two times when I've given in and used a mashup name out of affection, but it was never on the table for Jane and Maura to get together for real. But this last-minute storyline direction - although it apparently follows the canon of the books - Makes. No. Sense. I've watched since the beginning, and have harbored a crush on Angie Harmon since her Law & Order days, but as a Jane fan I find this almost unbearably annoying. Nothing in the past seven years has ever even hinted that

she'd get together with some random dude who almost literally just walked through the door.

. And that's not even getting into the ludicrous idea that she'd give up a job she loves and do something she did in one episode. I could almost just go with it if it wasn't so sudden.

I'm not sure this post has a point, per se, but it feels appropriate to put it here and I needed to get it off my chest. I guess it'll be good fodder for a fix-it when I get back to writing fanfic. Nothing motivates like righteous indignation.

[HeroWorld]

Quote

 

CBS dropped the new Nancy Drew pilot:

'Deadline reports that the pilot tested well with audiences but was deemed “too female” for the network'

 

Well Im relieved they didnt pick it up, didnt like the sound of the project. I still want my Nancy Drew show though, I would even take an animated series on Nickledon.

"Too female"? what a horrible and stupid thing to say, who do they think watch their programs. Morons! You can see from their new shows pick ups for this season how hard they are trying to be racist and sexist. Disgusting CBS!

Quote

Now, if they didn't watch it and are rating it poorly just to be asses, well that's different.  

They can  watch a female led show and  rate it poorly just to be asses its still a horrible thing to do. Some people really do look at IMDB ratings or reviews when deciding to watch or not, and poor ratings will turn away a few who might have become the show fans.

Edited September 5, 2016 by HeroWorld

[kiddo82]

Say what you will about Ryan Murphy but between American Horror Story and Scream Queens he employs/has employed Jessica Lange, Kathy Bates, Jamie Lee Curtis, Angela Bassette, Frances Conroy, Niecy Nash, Sarah Paulson, and now Kirstie Alley.  This is a who's who of veteran female talent getting interesting, award worthy roles.  And while Scream Queens might not be what AHS is in the quality department, it has to be fun for those actresses to get to be so campy and over the top.  Not only is it nice to see (and important to see) but these women are brining it to their respective roles.  Good for them.  

[Kromm]

France TV breast kiss puts sex harassment under spotlight

[Chaos Theory]

On 9/25/2016 at 2:11 PM, kiddo82 said:

Say what you will about Ryan Murphy but between American Horror Story and Scream Queens he employs/has employed Jessica Lange, Kathy Bates, Jamie Lee Curtis, Angela Bassette, Frances Conroy, Niecy Nash, Sarah Paulson, and now Kirstie Alley.  This is a who's who of veteran female talent getting interesting, award worthy roles.  And while Scream Queens might not be what AHS is in the quality department, it has to be fun for those actresses to get to be so campy and over the top.  Not only is it nice to see (and important to see) but these women are brining it to their respective roles.  Good for them.  

This is exactly why I never understood the Ryan Murphy is a sexist argument.  Calling him a "feminist" might be pushing it a lot but it's not an either/or choice.    I also thought a lot of it was bad writing on Glee and his preference to writing for the gay male pairing (which is understandable to an extent) then the lesbian one.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[SparedTurkey]

Quote

This is exactly why I never understood the Ryan Murphy is a sexist argument.

I think it is because while he may hire an equal amount of women (or more than) the stories he writes are, or turn into, something hugely sexist. Or at least his past shows have.

There was bad writing on Glee - and he was responsible for a lot of that. There were a (probably) equal amount of women as men on that show and every woman was reduced to a boy-loving, crazy, selfish, awful person. See: Rachel, Tina, Quinn etc.. While the men were glorified. So I think that is where his sexism really shone. Prior to that there was Nip/Tuck, where the majority of women were poorly written as self-involved, psychopathic or sexless.

And while he may have had a preference for the gay-male stories in Glee, the way he treated lesbians on that show was appalling. Bullying of a gay male was the Worst!Thing!Ever but he had no qualms portraying his most beloved straight, white QB bulling a POC lesbian. In that case the double standards are obvious and should be called out.

I dont want to comment on Scream Queens or American Horror Story because I dont like to watch his shows - mostly because the previous ones went rapidly downhill when he found something new and shiny to play with. Maybe he has got better - I certainly hope he has.

[NutMeg]

4 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

I think it is because while he may hire an equal amount of women (or more than) the stories he writes are, or turn into, something hugely sexist. Or at least his past shows have.

There was bad writing on Glee - and he was responsible for a lot of that. There were a (probably) equal amount of women as men on that show and every woman was reduced to a boy-loving, crazy, selfish, awful person. See: Rachel, Tina, Quinn etc.. While the men were glorified. So I think that is where his sexism really shone. Prior to that there was Nip/Tuck, where the majority of women were poorly written as self-involved, psychopathic or sexless.

And while he may have had a preference for the gay-male stories in Glee, the way he treated lesbians on that show was appalling. Bullying of a gay male was the Worst!Thing!Ever but he had no qualms portraying his most beloved straight, white QB bulling a POC lesbian. In that case the double standards are obvious and should be called out.

I dont want to comment on Scream Queens or American Horror Story because I dont like to watch his shows - mostly because the previous ones went rapidly downhill when he found something new and shiny to play with. Maybe he has got better - I certainly hope he has.

Yeah,that (bolded part) still works for Scream Queens, Season 1 (I'm behind on season 2, but it was shaping up as not so different in that regard)

[Chaos Theory]

Scream Queens everyone is awful so that isn't really a fair assessment.  It'sf like saying men are allowed to be selfish assholes but women aren't.  

Also when it comes to shows I tend to give leeway depending on who the and what the leads are.  Glee I just write off as an awful wash because I personally thought everyone was written horribly.  As for Nip/Tuck for better and worse the two leads were men and yes there were females involved but for the most part the show revolves around two men so I give the show some leeway.  I wouldn't call Vince Gillian of Breaking Bad fame of being a sexist even though he wrote one of the most hated women on tv.  Then again to each is own.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

11 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

And while he may have had a preference for the gay-male stories in Glee, the way he treated lesbians on that show was appalling. Bullying of a gay male was the Worst!Thing!Ever but he had no qualms portraying his most beloved straight, white QB bulling a POC lesbian. In that case the double standards are obvious and should be called out.

Except I don't think that Finn was particularly beloved to Murphy, and we've had this conversation before but whatever. If the straight white boy was such a favorite the writing would not have allowed the POC lesbian to repeatedly make fun of his weight, which is something that IMO would not have been played as a joke if it was happening the other way around.

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Scream Queens everyone is awful so that isn't really a fair assessment.  It'sf like saying men are allowed to be selfish assholes but women aren't. 

It's also the equivalent of saying that women should be allowed to be selfish assholes, etc because men can do it, and I don't see what the point of that argument is. The behavior doesn't magically become more appealing if you gender-flip it, and if anything a female Merle Dixon (just to use an example) would cause a furor all by itself. I was gonna say Daryl, but compared to his alive-dead-undead-dead brother Daryl's not that bad, even if he hasn't showered since the zombie apocalypse started.

[LydiaMoon1]

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I wouldn't call Vince Gillian of Breaking Bad fame of being a sexist even though he wrote one of the most hated women on tv.

If you're referring to Schuyler, I never saw a thing wrong with the way she was written and I was disgusted by the hatred directed at the character.  She was simply a typical wife and working mother who had a reasonable reaction to discovering her mild-mannered husband had become a ruthless and murderous drug dealer.  Sure, Breaking Bad fandom hated the character because she didn't worship Walter White the way they did, but that's not on Vince Gillian. That fault lies in the fandom.  OTOH, after watching Glee, I completely swore off watching any future Ryan Murphy shows.  Glee gave me enough of Ryan Murphy's sexist, racist, and generally offensive writing to last me a lifetime.

Edited October 20, 2016 by LydiaMoon1

[Chaos Theory]

If anything I think Ryan Murphy is less a sexist/racist and more a jerkist.  He doesn't write the good guy/likeable character especially well.  They either come off like a douche or a boring wet blanket.  While the asshole jerky jerk both girl and boy of all races comes off as the greatest thing you have ever seen.  He had the same problem with Screem Queens.  The supposed nice girl character who was probably supposed to be the hero was the least interesting character on the show while the jerks and assholes were all kinds of fun and awesome in various degrees.

[LydiaMoon1]

Nah.  His writing was sexist and racist.  Trust.

[DearEvette]

This season of Netflix's Black Mirror has an episode that features a WOC bisexual in a very positive lesbian relationship.  And it ends happily -- no 'bury your gays' in sight.

Here is a buzfeed collection of tweets/tumblr gifs about it.   Slightly spoilery:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/laurenstrapagiel/for-the-rest-of-it?utm_term=.mjqPYdQxZ4#.vpqVRQvl6e

[JBC344]

On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 1:18 PM, LydiaMoon1 said:

Nah.  His writing was sexist and racist.  Trust.

Would you mind giving some examples?  I have been a fan of Ryan Murphy but admit I'm more Popular and AHS, than Glee. So not an expert on all his incarnations. 

[zxy556575]

8 hours ago, DearEvette said:

This season of Netflix's Black Mirror has an episode that features a WOC bisexual in a very positive lesbian relationship. And it ends happily -- no 'bury your gays' in sight.

I thought of this thread while I was watching -- nobody has to be sad this time!

[LydiaMoon1]

17 hours ago, JBC344 said:

Would you mind giving some examples?  I have been a fan of Ryan Murphy but admit I'm more Popular and AHS, than Glee. So not an expert on all his incarnations. 

Oh, honey.  Just google sexism and racism in Glee.  You'll find more than enough examples all over the internet.  Or google the "Mammy" television trope and then re-watch season 6 and see how they treated Mercedes.  Or you can read up that time when fired all of the POC off the show and just kept the white people.

[Chaos Theory]

14 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

Oh, honey.  Just google sexism and racism in Glee.  You'll find more than enough examples all over the internet.  Or google the "Mammy" television trope and then re-watch season 6 and see how they treated Mercedes.  Or you can read up that time when fired all of the POC off the show and just kept the white people.

I don't want to get into a debate about this because Glee was awful for a lot of reasons but honestly judging Ryan Murphy solely on Glee and not what he has done since seems to me to be just as bad.  If you remove Glee from the debate all together would the conversation be the same or is Glee the worst mistake and yet Higest watched thing Murphy has ever done?

[LydiaMoon1]

IDK.  Glee was the first show of his I ever watched and I've not watched anything since (nor do I intend to). 

[Chaos Theory]

I tend to (try to) not care who the show runner is.  I ruined television for someone once when due to their hatred of Chuck Lorre (anothe sexist) and mainly 2 -1/2 men they promised to never watch anything of his again.  Then I made the mistake of mentioning several other projects of his that they loved both past and present.  I think my friend threw out her copy of Dharma and Greg which she watched frequently when she realized that the big ol sexist was involved.  She loved that show.

As for Ryan Murphy except for Glee which I write off as horrible trash he has showrunned several things that I have genuinely enjoyed with a bunch of women who have repeatedly returned.  I doubt he hates women.  I think he just hated Glee.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Chaos Theory
Spellcheck

[joelene]

I don't think Ryan Murphy hates women either. I don't remember him hating them on Popular, Nip/Tuck or American Horror Story. He wrote some awful women, sure, but he wrote awful men too. Now, Glee became terrible, and I'm sure there were lots of terrible portrayals there (I didn't stick around), but let's not forget that show had shit loads of behind the scenes drama and I doubt Ryan was personally responsible for all that went down there, and no doubt some of that transferred on screen.

Murphy is also not subtle. He loves loud, he loves bitchy, he loves over the top, sex, drama. You won't get subtlety from him. And considering how all of his shows go off the rails he's also not a big planner so I think he just throws things in and maybe he doesn't consider the consequences. Now, that's a big flaw for sure and I'm sure there's a lot of non PC writing (to put it mildly, perhaps) there because of it. Maybe he even hated some female actors and POC actors on his shows but, personally, I don't think he's a misogynist or racist. But then again I don't know him so maybe he is, but I haven't seen enough of that to make such bold statements. He's written many great female characters over the years.

I also don't think Joss Whedon is a misogynist which seems to be a popular opinion these days. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by joelene

[DittyDotDot]

Not being able to write decent women does not equal misogynist, IMO. Incompetence, perhaps, but I'm not sure that means they hate women.

[DearEvette]

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don't want to get into a debate about this because Glee was awful for a lot of reasons but honestly judging Ryan Murphy solely on Glee and not what he has done since seems to me to be just as bad.  If you remove Glee from the debate all together would the conversation be the same or is Glee the worst mistake and yet Higest watched thing Murphy has ever done?

I haven't watch a Ryan Murphy show in forever just because I think he is a hack with no attention span and relies on stunt casting.  But I do remember there being a lot of articles about how problematic AHS Coven was racially speaking.  Also recently there have been a few write ups about Scream Queens.

[crowsworks]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 1:12 PM, DearEvette said:

 

You're right, In a general sense no one should be safe especially in these shows that exist in violent worlds. But in reality, you can't divorce tv from its need to maintain an audience and the expectations the medium has built up for that viewing audience over years.  The truth is there are some characters who are more invulnerable than others.  It is very, very rare for an actual lead or hero of a show to be killed off and for the show to continue undamaged for much longer.  There is a reason there is a trope called Plot Armor.  It is there to protect the protagonist of the show.  Because in most cases, an audience will not stay if the titular hero is gone  We've been brainwashed for years about the hero's journey in narrative storytelling and we aren't emotionally satisfied unless the hero triumphs.

 

Even a character like Walter White, whom most would argue is not a hero, was still central to his story and even though many disliked him, the story still had to make him triumph. 

  Hide contents

Him killing the neo-Nazi's and setting Jessie free  before his own death was that triumph.  It satisfied those who rooted for him. And his death satisfied those who rooted against him.  Of course he died in the finale, so the need to keep him alive was no longer there.

 

When Person of Interest was teasing the major death in Season 3, most people thought it was going to be Fusco.  Nobody seriously entertained the idea that it would be Reese or Finch.  After they did kill Carter off, the showrunners made all these statements  about how no one on the show was ever safe, anybody could have been killed at any time.  Sure.  I'm sure CBS would have been A-OK with them killing off Reese or Finch.  And guess what?  All the main characters on that show are still alive and kicking.... except the black woman.

except on the Finale when the cast seemed to be lining up for the reaper - Carter was only for a set period since the actress didn't want to spend 5 or 6 years. (See Cookie)

One of the Lesbians lived.