The Harry Potter Movies

[Browncoat]

13 minutes ago, jjj said:

But that moment when Harry and Petunia both connect over the loss of Lily is extremely powerful, even though Petunia cannot remove her resentment from reminding Harry that "you didn't just lose a mother; I lost a sister." 

It is powerful, but it is also out of character.  If Petunia was so fond of Lily, why didn't Petunia defend Lily to Aunt Marge?  Why didn't Petunia treasure her only sister's only child?  Petunia didn't "lose" a sister when Voldemort killed Lily, Petunia threw her sister away when Lily went to Hogwarts.

But I do wonder if the Dursleys ever returned to Privet Drive.

[jjj]

6 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

It is powerful, but it is also out of character.  If Petunia was so fond of Lily, why didn't Petunia defend Lily to Aunt Marge?  Why didn't Petunia treasure her only sister's only child?  Petunia didn't "lose" a sister when Voldemort killed Lily, Petunia threw her sister away when Lily went to Hogwarts.

But I do wonder if the Dursleys ever returned to Privet Drive.

It is possible to have a deep love-hate relationship with a sibling, yet still miss that sibling, which is what I got from the Lily-Petunia dynamic in the books and movies.  And we don't know what Petunia knew about the night Lily was killed, but I got the sense that Petunia somehow blamed Harry, if only that Lily died protecting him.  Petunia might not have understood all that happened with Harry's parents, but even so, Harry represented both a burden in the household and a reminder of loss.  Petunia was not a well-balanced personality, but she could still feel the loss of a childhood sibling.  And her resentment of Harry had several layers -- his intrusion into their household and his part in the death of Lily (clearly not his fault, but again, Petunia was not inclined to understand the intricacy of that).  

I suspect that there was nothing to prevent the Dursleys from returning to Privet Drive.  It was less than a year from their departure (end of July) to the battle at Hogwarts (May), so the condiments in the refrigerator should still be good... 

[Anela]

I need to look up freeform, and see if they're doing their Harry Potter weekends. The last I remember was in March. 

[ursula]

11 hours ago, jjj said:

And her resentment of Harry had several layers -- his intrusion into their household and his part in the death of Lily (clearly not his fault, but again, Petunia was not inclined to understand the intricacy of that).  

Her resentment of Harry was always plain (in the books) - he was a "freak", the same way as Lily and that 'dreadful boy'. She was ashamed of Lily and resented having to bring up a child of hers who would also turn into a freak. I mean, kudos to the movie adaptations for trying to add layers to Petunia's character but those layers simply don't exist and/or have any support for them. Petunia and Vernon were always written as black-and-white villainous characters. Their treatment to Harry - locking him up in the cupboard to squash the magic out of him - have conversion therapy analogies for a reason. 

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

Her resentment of Harry was always plain (in the books) - he was a "freak", the same way as Lily and that 'dreadful boy'. She was ashamed of Lily and resented having to bring up a child of hers who would also turn into a freak. I mean, kudos to the movie adaptations for trying to add layers to Petunia's character but those layers simply don't exist and/or have any support for them. Petunia and Vernon were always written as black-and-white villainous characters. Their treatment to Harry - locking him up in the cupboard to squash the magic out of him - have conversion therapy analogies for a reason. 

All true. But if you remember book 7 her shame was also fueled by envy. She called Lily a freak, but if you remember in the flashback in book 7, her younger self wished that she had magical powers too, and she even wrote to Dumbledore begging him to let her go to Hogwarts. When she found out Lily and Snape read her letter, she was furious and acted like she never wanted to go to school with a bunch of "freaks" anyway.

[jjj]

6 hours ago, Anela said:

I need to look up freeform, and see if they're doing their Harry Potter weekends. The last I remember was in March. 

I thought they had lost the rights to show the Harry Potter films a while back -- and the rights now are going to SyFy and USA .

My only real point was that I was so surprised that the farewell of Harry and Petunia was not part of the film, because I did not know Freeform had shown it as an extra.  I thought it was part of the theatrical release. I love the scene. 

6 hours ago, ursula said:

Her resentment of Harry was always plain (in the books) - he was a "freak", the same way as Lily and that 'dreadful boy'. She was ashamed of Lily and resented having to bring up a child of hers who would also turn into a freak. I mean, kudos to the movie adaptations for trying to add layers to Petunia's character but those layers simply don't exist and/or have any support for them. Petunia and Vernon were always written as black-and-white villainous characters. Their treatment to Harry - locking him up in the cupboard to squash the magic out of him - have conversion therapy analogies for a reason. 

 

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

All true. But if you remember book 7 her shame was also fueled by envy. She called Lily a freak, but if you remember in the flashback in book 7, her younger self wished that she had magical powers too, and she even wrote to Dumbledore begging him to let her go to Hogwarts. When she found out Lily and Snape read her letter, she was furious and acted like she never wanted to go to school with a bunch of "freaks" anyway.

[Anela]

5 hours ago, jjj said:

I thought they had lost the rights to show the Harry Potter films a while back -- and the rights now are going to SyFy and USA .

My only real point was that I was so surprised that the farewell of Harry and Petunia was not part of the film, because I did not know Freeform had shown it as an extra.  I thought it was part of the theatrical release. I love the scene. 

 

I didn't remember the scene myself, but I've barely watched them for years. I agreed with your post, that you can miss someone, even if you don't like them so much anymore, and losing someone, no matter how much discord there, is the most difficult thing - maybe more difficult, because there will be regret and "what ifs".

[Browncoat]

1 minute ago, Anela said:

losing someone, no matter how much discord there, is the most difficult thing - maybe more difficult, because there will be regret and "what ifs".

True, but by the time of the farewell scene, Lily had been dead for sixteen years, and Petunia had those same sixteen years to make up for regrets and "what ifs" with Harry.  She chose to be an asshole to her sister and to Harry.  I do have sympathy for the Dursleys having to move house with a day's notice, but that's about the extent of it. 

[Anela]

6 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

True, but by the time of the farewell scene, Lily had been dead for sixteen years, and Petunia had those same sixteen years to make up for regrets and "what ifs" with Harry.  She chose to be an asshole to her sister and to Harry.  I do have sympathy for the Dursleys having to move house with a day's notice, but that's about the extent of it. 

I know. I'm thinking of my own situation. :)

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, Browncoat said:

True, but by the time of the farewell scene, Lily had been dead for sixteen years, and Petunia had those same sixteen years to make up for regrets and "what ifs" with Harry.  She chose to be an asshole to her sister and to Harry.  I do have sympathy for the Dursleys having to move house with a day's notice, but that's about the extent of it. 

They got off easy. I always wanted Mrs. Wesley to turn them into dung beetles.

[Browncoat]

Apparently USA and Syfy now have the rights for Harry Potter -- both stations are having a Harry Potter weekend this weekend. 

And USA has cut the bit with the Malfoys in Borgin and Burke's after Harry misuses the floo powder in Chamber of Secrets.  Clever editing, though -- if I didn't know there was a bit missing, I'd never know.  Or was that an extra scene as well?

Edited July 14, 2018 by Browncoat

[VCRTracking]

18 hours ago, Browncoat said:

And USA has cut the bit with the Malfoys in Borgin and Burke's after Harry misuses the floo powder in Chamber of Secrets.  Clever editing, though -- if I didn't know there was a bit missing, I'd never know.  Or was that an extra scene as well?

That scene wasn't in the theatrical version. I first saw it as one of the deleted scenes on the DVD. When the movies were shown on ABC Family(now Freeform) they added all the cut scenes to make them longer. It might have made Draco more sympathetic as showing how his dad treats him and also impotant to the plot for where he got Tom Riddle's diary but I liked first seeing Draco at the bookshop and where we're first introduced to Lucius Malfoy.

[Browncoat]

It apparently has been way too long since I've seen the theatrical versions!  Thanks for the info, @VCRTracking.  At least they did include the part with the floo powder -- when ABC showed that one, they went from Molly Weasley saying that they needed to go to Diagon Alley directly there (with a commercial break between) -- all of them dirty and sooty with no explanation.  

And since they don't seem to be any shorter on USA, I guess they removed the extras to make room for commercials. 

[raven]

All 8 Films + Fantastic Beasts are coming to theaters

Not near me, though.  I'll just cry in the corner over here.

[blueray]

^me either. That is cool that they are playing them somewhere.

[VCRTracking]

Evanna Lynch, Luna Lovegood from "Harry Potter," joins "Dancing with the Stars" cast

[ramble]

I loved Luna, but Evanna is with Keo. Sigh. He isn’t the best teacher in my opinion and he usually is out quickly. That makes me sad. 

[HunterHunted]

[Browncoat]

That was really cool, @HunterHunted!  Amazing talent.

[Frost]

That was great!  When it started, I was in pre-cringe mode, but it turned out cool.

[ChromaKelly]

I love JK but yeah...

 

[Dee]

I love that Ron "couldn't be" Black because he was described as having red hair.

[Frost]

I just watched Deathly Hallows Pt 2 for the umpteenth time and I'm still trying to figure out why there is a still a Slytherin House for Albus Potter to worry about.  Not a single Slytherin fought for Hogwarts.  When Hogwarts was rebuilt, why oh why wouldn't the school drop Slytherin and create, I don't know, Dumbledore House, instead?  I know Slytherin was a founder, but considering he abandoned the school rather early on, leaving behind a Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets no less, why continue to honor him?

I know there's no real answer to this question, but it bugs me. 

[Cherpumple]

2 hours ago, Frost said:

why there is a still a Slytherin House for Albus Potter to worry about.

It bugs me too. You'd think that the basilisk alone would be a dealbreaker for the administration. But I suppose there are too many Slytherins in powerful positions who wouldn't stand for it being eliminated. I'm not too nit-picky about this series, but I really wish Rowling had done a better job of fleshing out Slytherin house. From what we're shown, it was basically a breeding ground for monsters, with a Slughorn or two thrown in. The other houses all had nuanced representation, but Slytherin was very one-note.

[HunterHunted]

On 10/28/2018 at 12:00 PM, ChromaKelly said:

I love JK but yeah...

 

Clickhole has been parodying for quite some time Jo's penchant for retroactively making the Harry Potter universe more inclusive.

https://www.clickhole.com/tag/jk-rowling

22 hours ago, Dee said:

I love that Ron "couldn't be" Black because he was described as having red hair.

Tell that to Malcolm X.

[Zuleikha]

Clickhole has been parodying for quite some time Jo's penchant for retroactively making the Harry Potter universe more inclusive.

Did I miss a series of announcements that JK Rowling made? The only things I remember her talking about in terms of inclusivity were confirming that Dumbledore is gay (which is hinted at, so I do believe was always her intention) and tweeting support for casting Noma Dumezweni as Hermione in Cursed Child.

[HunterHunted]

She also said that there are wizards of many faiths at Hogwarts, out LGBT students at Hogwarts, and no racial prejudice in the magical world. 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/dec/17/jk-rowling-confirms-that-there-were-jewish-wizards-harry-potter

It's the last one that has irritated many fans because it means JK has to come up with a pretty substantial alternate history of the wizarding world to explain why wizards and witches of European descent were silent and passive about the slave trade and the near genocide of Native American wizards and witches.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alannabennett/space-wizards-would-have-been-less-fraught?utm_term=.hvz9Rlmo8#.yx04wz3xa

Edited October 30, 2018 by HunterHunted

[Spartan Girl]

17 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

She also said that there are wizards of many faiths at Hogwarts, out LGBT students at Hogwarts, and no racial prejudice in the magical world. 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/dec/17/jk-rowling-confirms-that-there-were-jewish-wizards-harry-potter

It's the last one that has irritated many fans because it means JK has to come up with a pretty substantial alternate history of the wizarding world to explain why wizards and witches of European descent were silent and passive about the slave trade and the near genocide of Native American wizards and witches.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alannabennett/space-wizards-would-have-been-less-fraught?utm_term=.hvz9Rlmo8#.yx04wz3xa

 

Maybe it was the same reason why Wakanda stayed out of foreign affairs for so long: they didn't want to get exposed. Not saying it was right, but as seen in Fantastic Beasts, the wizarding world's main priority is staying incognito from Muggles.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Spartan Girl

[HunterHunted]

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Maybe it was the same reason why Wakanda stayed out of foreign affairs for so long: they didn't want to get exposed. Not saying it was right, but as seen in Fantadtic Beasts, the wizard int world's main priority is staying incognito from Muggles.

Except it's really not. Wakanda is completely self-sufficient and quite literally stayed out of everything that was happening in the rest of the world for thousands of years. There are very closed isolated communities where we've seen similar things happen in real populations.

However, Jo has posited that magical communities don't have any prejudice about race, ethnicity, or color. That's literally incompatible with the history of America and even the history of American wizardry that Jo has described. You can't be open, tolerant, and accepting of wizards of color, but turn a blind eye when those same people are put in bondage or massacred. There's such a fundamental hypocrisy in that. What else can you call it when your words say one thing, but your actions say another. Yeah, like don't break something with your heaping help of don't give a shit. This would make Caucasian wizards as complicit as Germans who watched their Jewish neighbors carted off, shook their heads about how awful it was, and continued to eat their breakfasts.

Jo is too ignorant and arrogant to realize that she doesn't know what the fuck she's doing when it comes to race. So when fans brought up ways that she could have better aligned the history of America with her view of American magic, she ignored them. There were white communities that were heavily involved in the abolition movement and the underground railroad. At a certain point, France refused to honor fugitive slave warrants and openly spread information that if escaped slaves made it to France or a French colony, that France would not honor the warrant and that the slave would be free. But Jo knows fuckall about America so it would never occur to her address this issue.  And knowing that in Harry Potter there were wizards who who had 2 muggle parents, it's actually quite monstrous to think a wizard might be born a slave and have no freedom or support to escape. So the magical world either needs to have mechanisms to free these wizards or just be awful hypocrites. This shit doesn't happen in a vacuum, but Jo's too full of herself to realize what she's messed up.

Edited October 30, 2018 by HunterHunted

[Dee]

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Jo is too ignorant and arrogant to realize that she doesn't know what the fuck she's doing when it comes to race.

Yep. For example, look no further than the current controversy surrounding Nagini

[Frost]

I thought Voldemort found Nagini in the Bulgarian forest he fled to after Godric's Hollow.  Why would an Indian/Indonesian/South Korean/Generic Asian snake be in the Bulgarian forest?  The whole concept doesn't seem very well thought out.

I'm also concerned they're going to ret-con the Dumbledore / Grindenwald duel.  That was a pretty iconic part of the Dumbledore story with nary a mention of Newt Scamander.  I loved the first Fantastic Beasts movie so I hope this is treated properly.

[scarynikki12]

The duel won’t take place until the mid-1940s, coinciding with the end of World War 2, so we aren’t there yet. 

[tennisgurl]

20 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

She also said that there are wizards of many faiths at Hogwarts, out LGBT students at Hogwarts, and no racial prejudice in the magical world. 

 

Yeah, does Jo realize that actually doesn't make things look any better? "Yeah, there are totally tons of wizards of different backgrounds, faiths, and orientations...somewhere...off screen...not being a part of the action..." Your not helping, Jo! It just makes it look like you were actively trying to ignore the minority students you can there the whole time! I mean, every reference in the books to couples are always boy/girl, we never see any references to faith (Merlins Beard!), and while I can buy there not being racial prejudice in the wizarding world, it makes things look pretty bad that apparently wizards were just chilling during slavery, multiple genocides, etc. while they could have been helping their muggle neighbors. 

Of course, as I've said before, these are people who, in the books, got confused by pants. They really might just be that oblivious. 

[GaT]

This is just my opinion, & I don't mean to belittle anyone else's opinion, but I think that in this overly PC world we now live in, people are getting just a little too invested in a fake world. Nothing in these books or movies is real, there are no magical schools, there is no Harry Potter, there is no Voldemort, this is all made up stuff. Every fictional story does not need to include a person of every real race, religion, or sexual orientation, & I don't think that it has to follow the history of the real world. They are stories, not real life, not even dependant on real life. It's just one woman's vision of an imagined world, not a historical document. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by GaT

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, GaT said:

I think that in this overly PC world we now live in, people are getting just a little too invested in a fake world. Nothing in these books or movies is real, there are no magical schools, there is no Harry Potter, there is no Voldemort, this is all made up stuff.

Is it overly PC or is it just concern about courtesy, empathy, and authenticity? The Lord of the Rings trilogy made $3 billion. They weren't boycotted by people of color or women despite JRR Tolkien's ignoring those populations in his high fantasy series. People are fully capable of rationalizing his blindness about those groups due to his personal experience. In contrast, Rowling saw fit to retroactively include characters of different genders, color, sexuality, and religion and used those characteristics like window dressing rather than using those characteristics to deepen her world building. She could have been fucking silent about the shit she was too ashamed to admit that she forgot about. 

Furthermore, she's created this shadow universe that exists along side our own, but she just ignores the very obvious issues in our own world that might have impacted her shadow world. Either create a universe that is fundamentally different from our own or actually address these issues. She doesn't get to occupy this quarter-assed (because calling it half-assed is too kind) middle path and think she doesn't deserve to get criticism. Am I supposed to be impressed by her half-assed tokenism? Which this fucking was.

Edited October 31, 2018 by HunterHunted

[Dee]

Tolkien is as bad as Rowling (arguably worse), and the LOTR/Hobbit franchise was plagued with its own racial controversy.

The difference is that Rowling doesn't know when to quit.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Dee

[supposebly]

On 10/29/2018 at 9:18 PM, HunterHunted said:

She also said that there are wizards of many faiths at Hogwarts, out LGBT students at Hogwarts, and no racial prejudice in the magical world. 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/dec/17/jk-rowling-confirms-that-there-were-jewish-wizards-harry-potter

It's the last one that has irritated many fans because it means JK has to come up with a pretty substantial alternate history of the wizarding world to explain why wizards and witches of European descent were silent and passive about the slave trade and the near genocide of Native American wizards and witches.

I would think that is a problem with European history too. Anti-Semitism, racial or religious genocide, or the slave trade are not just part of American history. So the whole concept of the isolated magical world is pretty flawed if you want to put it in the real world. I'd rather imagine it an alternate world, both the magical and the muggle world. Otherwise, there is always the question of how the problems in the Muggle world could be ignored all this time. Especially considering the concept of Muggle-born wizards and witches. Jewish Muggle-borns in the Middle Ages, prosecuted early Christian wizards and witches, Moslem wizards during the Crusades, Roma wizards and witches, Bosnia in the 1990s, the Cold War, not to mention Nazi Germany, for just a few examples.

I thought the little mention of Medieval witches being burnt at the stake for fun was a cutifying way to give some nod to European history but not really putting this story into a real-world context. Because, as this discussion shows, that opens a whole can of worms.

[VCRTracking]

From Filmjoy's Mikey Neumann:

[HunterHunted]

4 hours ago, supposebly said:

I would think that is a problem with European history too. Anti-Semitism, racial or religious genocide, or the slave trade are not just part of American history. So the whole concept of the isolated magical world is pretty flawed if you want to put it in the real world. I'd rather imagine it an alternate world, both the magical and the muggle world. Otherwise, there is always the question of how the problems in the Muggle world could be ignored all this time. Especially considering the concept of Muggle-born wizards and witches. Jewish Muggle-borns in the Middle Ages, prosecuted early Christian wizards and witches, Moslem wizards during the Crusades, Roma wizards and witches, Bosnia in the 1990s, the Cold War, not to mention Nazi Germany, for just a few examples.

I thought the little mention of Medieval witches being burnt at the stake for fun was a cutifying way to give some nod to European history but not really putting this story into a real-world context. Because, as this discussion shows, that opens a whole can of worms.

The only intellectual property I've seen where they've made it familiar enough to audiences, but clearly an alternate universe is Fringe. Both the prime universe and the alternate felt familiar, but different. They did it by having some small, but meaningful changes like having the World Trade Center Towers still standing, Eric Stoltz starring in Back to the Future, and having the US never acquire Alaska or Hawaii. So if the Austria-Hungarian Empire still existed or World War 2 actually resulted in the Franco British Union or if the independent Jewish nation had actually ended up in Uganda, Madagascar, Guyana, Eastern Europe, or any of the alternate sites that were considered, it would make it a little easier to realize that Harry Potter takes place in an alternate universe. It doesn't need to be a ton of changes or details, but just enough to make it obvious that how we normally understand the world works isn't true in Harry Potter.

[Zuleikha]

You can't be open, tolerant, and accepting of wizards of color, but turn a blind eye when those same people are put in bondage or massacred. There's such a fundamental hypocrisy in that.

The Wizarding world DOES have plenty of hypocrisy, though! It's consistent with what she established in the books that Wizards view the main division as between themselves and Muggles and that they don't interfere in Muggle politics. She never portrayed Wizarding society as some kind of utopic ideal. They've always been shown to be just as horrible, prejudiced (in their own ways), fearful, and tyrannical. And as pointed out, there are similar problems with European history, too.

"Yeah, there are totally tons of wizards of different backgrounds, faiths, and orientations...somewhere...off screen...not being a part of the action..." You're not helping, Jo! It just makes it look like you were actively trying to ignore the minority students you can there the whole time!

This seems really unfair to Rowling's linked tweets. All she did was confirm what was already canon... that Hogwarts has non-white, non-Christian students. They weren't off screen; they were tertiary. And some of them were part of the action. Her tweets didn't claim anything that she didn't actually do. They are also confirming that fans of all ethnicities and religions are valid to imagine themselves in her world in fanfic/fanart.

And I still maintain that given how well it's gone when she's tried to place a focus on cultures that she's not a part of, it's for the best that she didn't try to make a primary character non-white generically Christian British. I think it's important that we let creatives create within their comfort zone and encourage diversity within creatives themselves. 

[mattie0808]

16 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

The Wizarding world DOES have plenty of hypocrisy, though! It's consistent with what she established in the books that Wizards view the main division as between themselves and Muggles and that they don't interfere in Muggle politics. She never portrayed Wizarding society as some kind of utopic ideal. They've always been shown to be just as horrible, prejudiced (in their own ways), fearful, and tyrannical. And as pointed out, there are similar problems with European history, too.

Okay. Sort of. But my question is, not what were all the so not-prejudiced white people doing "not interfering" throughout American and European history (at least) -- what in the actual, living hell are the BLACK WIZARDS AND WITCHES DOING. (And any other minority group.)

I mean, am I just supposed to accept that throughout the magical community in the U.S., they are so completely, thoroughly, utterly isolated, that they can become the magical president by the time of FB1, but never thought to lift a finger to help their "No-Mag" brothers and sisters. Really? The MUGGLE-BORN black wizards and witches, who would have lived with the exact discrimination and oppression that black people faced at whatever point in U.S. history, eventually got told they had magic and -- forgot? Didn't care? Were so happy to be accepted by the magical society that they just didn't worry about it? Didn't want to help their own family members? Really? Forever? What?

That to me is where it is clear that there was no real thought process about U.S. (and European) magical history. Think of all the things so many black people had to do and to sacrifice and to suffer. And not ONE magical black person ever decided to get or stay involved. Not one muggle-born slave, not one muggle-born in the Jim Crow south. No collective concern from black or Native or any other wizards and witches. Not one muggle-born Jew in occupied Europe raised a ruckus. Hermione, as a muggle-born, is ride-or-die to free the elves, but not worried at all about the society she was raised in. That's about as impossible as it is for the ENTIRE U.S. to only have one magical school, lol.

X-Men (the movies, as I'm not a comics reader) at least throws some bones in this direction. Eric/Magneto didn't just go quietly to the camps. And he tries to intervene in U.S. politics at the highest levels. I just...come on!

Edited November 1, 2018 by mattie0808

[Zuleikha]

That to me is where it is clear that there was no real thought process about U.S. (and European) magical history.

I don't disagree with the substance of your objection. The only part that I disagree with is the that there's a new problem introduced with U.S. history that wasn't already present with the horrors and genocides of European history. None of world history makes sense happening in the same way because the Wizarding world and Muggle world are too intertwined for magic not to have affected the Muggle context.

IMHO, that's just part of the general problem of fantasy that layers a magical world on the real one. Most alternate histories or contemporary fantasy worlds break down if you question them too closely.... there was that whole lengthy conversation upthread about Muggle-borns and tech that raised some good points about how ridiculous it is for students used to ballpoint pens and computers to embrace quills and inkwells.

Also, it's established that wizards were more separated from Muggles further back into history and that there are many more Muggles than wizards. Even if there were Black Wizards who tried to free slaves (or who ran magical versions of the Underground Railroad), Jewish wizards who tried to stop the Holocaust,  Irish wizards fighting against the famines and the British colonization, there wouldn't necessarily be enough of them to change general history. Wizarding world wizards may be sympathetic to someone fighting for freedom, but I think they would still band together to stop the person if they tried something too visible and widespread.

[mattie0808]

Quote

The only part that I disagree with is the that there's a new problem introduced with U.S. history that wasn't already present with the horrors and genocides of European history.

I do think the introduction of a black, female president of MACUSA is a new/recent element that is problematic within US history. I do think some of what Rowling has tried to say in the years since the release of the books and the original movies about Hogwarts and the magical world has been new information that in some cases is difficult to deal with.

I completely agree that in fantasy like Harry Potter, that is meant to take place in our world/with our history, there is always some suspension of disbelief required and some things aren’t going to make real-world sense. I just feel there’s a complete disregard of certain major issues that is increasingly problematic. I understand that there isn’t going to be a U.S. where, say, any notable portion of slaves were freed by a black wizard or witch. The X-Men, in the movies, didn’t radically change the course of history either. But there is a recognition of how is it that these very powerful people, who grew up “normally” until their powers manifested themselves in various stages of adolescence, dealt with being subjected to prejudices and oppression.

The X-Men is also more of an allegory generally about prejudice, which HP certainly was never intended to be. But I think the frustration with JKR is that someone who always took care with all the very unique and creative ways she built her fictional world is seeming to show less care on some major points. She wants to add diversity (and I’d agree she’s doing so with good intent) - great! But that doesn’t make it reasonable to simply say that the magical community in the U.S. was so racially ahead of the curve (gender-wise too!) that they can elect that president at that time. It makes it hard to understand the social history of the magical community in the U.S. Were magical people coming to the U.S. from Europe back in the day just without any racial/gender prejudices? How is that possible? It’s not like they were coming from diverse countries or communities. They arrived in what became a diverse country that overran the racially different native population, enslaved another race, did not officially give women the vote and other rights until way later, etc.

And again, aside from the majority population, it truly complicates things for muggle-born minorities. It didn’t need to be dealt with in the original books, because it was the 90s-00s, and there’s no real issue with the magic world reflecting the diversity of the UK/Europe at that time (even bettering it in some ways). Now, though, we’re in different countries, in different time periods. I know the social history of the U.S. is not the point of the books. But this is the direction JKR has chosen to go in. I’d like to see some acknowledgment of that - can totally be basic/brief/throwaway - in how the world continues to be constructed.

Edited November 2, 2018 by mattie0808

[HunterHunted]

The thing that really set me off about Fantastic Beasts was the MaCUSA headquarters, which I'm sure seems a bit nitpicky to some. In the film, we're shown that the headquarters is in the Woolworth's Building. It was the tallest most famous building in the world at that time. It was in the financial district. However, we're shown witches and wizards of all colors and stripes walking in and out of the front door, which would have attracted tons of attention. The first Black stockbrokers weren't registered until the late 40s and early 50s. So that was pure sloppiness.

Even worse is that in the Harry Potter series, we're shown many secret ways that witches and wizards enter the Ministry of Magic: floo, toilet, and phone booth. So had JKR or David Yates talked to an American and especially a New Yorker, they could have grafted an interesting bit of New York/American history on to the story and added some authenticity.

There are a number of closed and hidden subway stations and platforms in New York. The best known is the private line under the Waldorf Astoria that FDR used to conceal his paralysis. Additionally, the Woolworth's building has a subway platform beneath it. The Fantastic Beasts series could have simply shown witches and wizards entering and exiting on their own versions of platform 9 3/4 all over the city to get on the MaCUSA red line, blue line, and what have you. So they can live comfortably in their various ethnic enclaves in Brooklyn, the Bronx, Chinatown, Harlem, and Staten Island. 

https://ny.curbed.com/maps/nyc-subway-secret-tunnels

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_closed_New_York_City_Subway_stations?wprov=sfla1

This actually solves some of racial issues. I can even handwave away the idea that there is no racial prejudice within the magical community. However, there was tons of racial prejudice in America at that time. Simply creating a system of hidden subway lines means that magical people of color coming in from ethnic enclaves aren't attracting attention and aren't harassed.

Heck, they could have used Blackwell/Roosevelt Island as secret magical enclave in the city. Roosevelt Island has almost always had prisons and hospitals for extremely contagious diseases. That would be a large enough deterrent for most muggles to stay away. It could have been like the Black Townhouse, which existed in that pocket dimension between the two muggle townhouses.

Jo would have only known to do any of this had she bothered to do a little bit of research or talked to someone who knew more about New York and the US than she did.

[HunterHunted]

There is this episode of Mad Men titled "The Hobo Code." It delves into Don Draper's sketchy past. The episode contains some explanation of hobo/tramp glyphs that give other hobos/tramps a heads up about what to expect in a town, if there were safe havens, and whether people in the home or area had a bias against them. The reason I mention this is because we've seen entrances controlled by paintings and pictures in the Harry Potter series and in Fantastic Beasts (the magical speakeasy). It's actually not much of a stretch to think that even if witches and wizards couldn't rescue their brethren from bondage, they might have made an effort to ensure to memorialize the clues towards freedom in secret glyphs and as lyrics in slave songs that would only mean something to magical people. I say this because I'm an American Black woman of recent sub-saharan descent who grew up in the Appalachian tri-state (Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Ohio) who has a degree that is related to the areas that I've discussed. All of the language quirks that I've absorbed from these varying cultures absolutely functions as a shibboleth. As I've said before, these are just things Jo seems to be ignorant about. I just really wish she'd consult with people.

And if you've never seen the codes, here they are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo?wprov=sfla1

[VCRTracking]

[GaT]

I think JK Rowling may be losing her mind

[slf]

11 hours ago, GaT said:

I think JK Rowling may be losing her mind

Honestly, that's horrifying. So, what- if you had to pee you just let it run down your legs and soak your robes and then waved your wand afterward? And this was considered acceptable why? They didn't at least have chamber pots and bathrooms they could discreetly relieve themselves in? Why? Why? Why?

[GaT]

2 hours ago, slf said:

Honestly, that's horrifying. So, what- if you had to pee you just let it run down your legs and soak your robes and then waved your wand afterward? And this was considered acceptable why? They didn't at least have chamber pots and bathrooms they could discreetly relieve themselves in? Why? Why? Why?

Exactly. You're talking to someone & they just take a shit in the middle of the conversation & then wand it away? Why would she even think of something like this? Also, how did everyone get into the Ministry of Magic if there were no toilets? Did they, I don't know, just walk in the door?

[tennisgurl]

...why, JK Rowlings. Why?!? Even beyond that being absolutely disgusting and stupid (I know I joke about wizards lacking common sense, but come on!) but, wasn’t the Chamber of Secrets hidden in a doorway in a bathroom?!? And that’s supposed to be like a thousand years old! Ahhhh! 

Edited January 5, 2019 by tennisgurl