Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

[benteen]

Luke was able to fly a starfighter for the first time and destroy the Death Star.  Anakin blew up a Trade Federation control ship the first time he ever got in a starfighter.  So I don't have a lot of problems with what Rey did in this movie.  Her being able to fight Kylo...yeah, that one is harder to explain away.  But Skywalker piloting skills (or piloting skills of a Force-strong individual if Rey isn't of that bloodline) seem to come pretty quickly to the main heroes of the various Star Wars trilogies..

[lion10]

Well, let's be clear, the glory days of the Jedi and Sith are long gone by the time this movie rolls around and the only person to use the lightsaber with a bit of finesse is Kylo Ren.  Only three people in the galaxy have any training with a lightsaber.  You don't see any of the characters doing any fancy flips, twirls, or fancy lightsaber moves.  Finn and Rey both use the lightsaber more as a bashing stick and by the time they fight Kylo, he's bleeding out and failing to draw power from killing Han, making his moves sloppy as well.  Pretty much all the EU stuff older than 2014 has been declared non-canon so bringing in a now non-canon character and making her canon would confuse a lot of the fans.  

[blixie]

 

I am also less confident than you that Rey's permanently resisted the pull of the Dark Side.

 

THIS. Rey was pretty  much seething with ANGER when she beat the crap out of Kylo, and the only thing that stopped her from 'striking him down' was the split in the Star Killer base. She's ruthless with her blaster as well, and she seizes on Kylo's insecurities immediately when he tries to control her mind. 

[Lantern7]

And who decided that "Snoke" was a menacing villain name?  Jesus.

 

I know, right? I hear "Snoke," I think of Felicity from Arrow. I can't be alone on this.

[lion10]

THIS. Rey was pretty  much seething with ANGER when she beat the crap out of Kylo, and the only thing that stopped her from 'striking him down' was the split in the Star Killer base. She's ruthless with her blaster as well, and she seizes on Kylo's insecurities immediately when he tries to control her mind. 

 

I say she was able to resist the pull to the dark side because apparently in the official novelization of the The Force Awakens she hears a voice urging her to kill Kylo and she resists the voices and pushes the urge away.  So while the movie makes it look like the only reason she didn't kill Kylo was because of the splitting of the ground (which was how I saw it), apparently she decided not to do it before then.  And so if an inexperienced Force user can resist the dark side's pull in the heat of battle against someone who invaded her mind, killed her father-figure, and possibly killed her only friend, then what COULD make her turn?

[ybrik]

I think people are wanting more detailed explanation about things that Rey does but I do think the movie did provide explanations that are sufficient.

 

I mentioned this in a previous post but Rey is able to block and then turn back Ren's mind reading because Ren became emotionally vulnerable. He is getting info easy from her but when he reads the part about Han, he becomes vulnerable. He stops the mind reading and his whole demeanor chances for a moment. His voice becomes different. He gives her time to recuperate and he never really gets back his advantage. He becomes visually more emotional and she starts taking breaths and calming herself. She is trying to push him out of her mind and as she is getting stronger emotionally and he is getting more vulnerable she is pushing him back to the point it goes into his mind. It isn't that she is trying to read his mind it is just by accident.

 

We really don't know how much training Ren has gotten. Also he isn't being trained as a Sith. As far as it is known, he is being trained as a knight of Ren. We have no idea how this may differ from Jedi or Sith training.

 

Regarding the fight with Finn, he is beating him easily. Finn is the aggressor at first and Ren is blocking all Finn's attacks. He even knocks Finn to the ground but has to break off the fight for a moment before he can finish off the fight. Ren stops going after Finn to hit his wound again because it is effecting him. Finn then gets back up and is able to take advantage and get a strike in. This fuels Ren's anger helping him to focus and then disarms Finn before striking him down.

 

Rey's fighting skill with the lightsaber isn't very good. She looks like she is trying to fight with lightsaber like she would her staff. Rey at first is making odd strikes at Ren while somewhat blocking the occasional attacks. However most of the time she is running/backing away from him. As others have noted Ren doesn't seem intent on killing her instead trying to convince her to join him. Then once she allows that Force in she doesn't fight any better with the lightsaber but her strikes become stronger. Ren is having to block these strikes but this still takes a toll on him. He has to use energy to hold back the attacks.

 

Regarding Rey resisting the dark side. The novelization doesn't say she resists it. She 'recoils' from the voice in her head. She is having dark thoughts and has a sudden moment of being disgusted by the thoughts however, we don't know what would have happened if she had a few more seconds to think. Even Anakin resists the initial pull of the dark side when Palpatine said to kill Dooku. If the ground doesn't split open the voice in her mind could have continued whispering and maybe convinced her to kill Ren. Also things can still get worse for Rey and push her to the dark side. We don't know why she was left on Jakku. There are still so much unknown about Rey that saying there is nothing that can happen to her that can push her to the darkside is a bit premature. If anything Star Wars has taught me things can always get worse.

[Jediknight]

George Lucas himself did not have the most kind words or thoughts on the movie. I do not know why, but I can guest one reason is. That he literally spent a lifetime building a mythology about the Jedi. Their elitism due to rigorous training, all made completely moot in one 2hr movie. Both Finn and Rey handling lightsabers like they were born to them. Finn really should not have been able to attack that alone parry with Kylo Ren. Yet both Finn and Rey did.

Rey at the very least obviously had Jedi training before being left on Jakku.  Also, she turned the fight against him when she closed her eyes, calmed herself, and let the Force in.  That's something that Maz had told her to do earlier, and since she obviously at least learned from Luke, he would have told her.  Once she let the Force in, it guided her.  We also saw earlier that she could fight with her staff, so she wasn't exactly new to handling melee weapons.

 

With Finn, he was a Stormtrooper, and we saw with the stun baton guy, they would have had melee training.  And ignoring Kylo's injury, and the fact he's not in control, he's overconfident.  The guy thinks this lowly Stormtrooper who turned against the First Order poses no threat to him.  It's like what Luke told The Emperor, "Your overconfidence is your weakness."

 

Kylo is also a whiny brat playing Sith Lord, his training isn't complete.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Jediknight

[Emily Thrace]

George Lucas himself did not have the most kind words or thoughts on the movie. I do not know why, but I can guest one reason is. That he literally spent a lifetime building a mythology about the Jedi. Their elitism due to rigorous training, all made completely moot in one 2hr movie. Both Finn and Rey handling lightsabers like they were born to them. Finn really should not have been able to attack that alone parry with Kylo Ren. Yet both Finn and Rey did.

 

As for Luke's training, there was plenty of canon on this, but once again the movie made most of it moot. In the old Star Wars universe both the Rebels and the Empire were running academies and I guest the best term would be pre acadamy training. Piloting in the Star Wars universe is like driving a car here on earth. Almost everyone can, but few can do it very very well.

 

I'm going to be careful here, Luke received weeks of training with Yoda before he went to the Cloud City. The dialogue that matters is Han telling Leia it is far but he thinks they can make it. They were running on sublight engines. I get very upset when people write or watch scifi and they don't get the relationship between faster than light travel and sublight travel. After Yoda died Luke also took a partial training manual that Yoda had. But the most important thing to know about Luke's training is that he built his own lightsaber. Very important to the Jedi, at least in the old canon.

 

I have read 13 trilogies based on Star wars, which isn't that many considering how many there are. In short there could have been plenty of strong female characters who could have and probably should have helmed the reboot. Mara Jade or perhaps a female child of Luke's or Leia, who had some considerable training. The movie just made a mockery of the Jedi lore, Sith lore, dark Jedi lore and most importantly a joke out of what it takes to do battle with trained persons. But mileage does vary.

 

Except the only part that was really force training that she used was against a Stormtrooper something Obi-Wan said in the first movie was actually pretty easy. Stormtroopers conditioning makes them easy targets for that sort of thing.  Using a light saber isn't really all that different than the staff she was very experienced in using. Not to mention Rey is the first female padawan we've really seen it could be than females tend to pick up the mind trick quicker than males do. Or even just that she is better at that than Luke or Anakin.  Nothing Rey did contradicts the movies especially since we don't know Rey's full history. The EU isn't canon anymore so information from that doesn't count. Really it sounds more like Rey doesn't conform to how you interpret Jedi lore rather than she actually contradicts canon.

 

Even if she did contradict Jedi Lore its not necessarily a bad thing or a plot hole. Rey is supposed to something new, a hero and future legend like Anakin and Luke were. It would be disappointing if our hero was ordinary. Not to mention much of the movies have suggested that the Jedi way is not necessarily the right one. I suspect whatever path Rey ends up on it not going to be completely Jedi.

 

Also while criticizing female character isn't inherently sexist, when your entire criticism revolves their gender it is sexist or at least comes across that way. 

[Boundary]

There is still so much information deliberately left out, to be explained in later movies, about Rey. Right now it's an exercise in trust and patience that the filmmakers will pull through. If Rey is, according to Episode IX director, important in the entire galaxy then she must be enormously powerful in the force. In fact, her quick learning could be part of that arc - that's my own qualified judgement anyway.

[Watcher0363]

There is still so much information deliberately left out, to be explained in later movies, about Rey. Right now it's an exercise in trust and patience that the filmmakers will pull through. If Rey is, according to Episode IX director, important in the entire galaxy then she must be enormously powerful in the force. In fact, her quick learning could be part of that arc - that's my own qualified judgement anyway.

Rey's character was so derivative if not totally steeped in such female leads in shows like, Charmed, The Mortal Instruments, The Witches of East End, The Nine lives of Chloe King, Lost Girl, and Vampire Academy. All very female centric shows with young women or girls whose powers have been blocked shielded or bound. Then all of a sudden the powers are released. But they have little to no understanding of their power and how to use them. The only thing they understand less, is how they fit into their new world. However one thing is clear, they are always the future saviors of something. It is just to bad they are so ill prepared for the task.

 

Now most male centered scifi and scifantasy may center around a male whose birthright of some kind was taken away. But the difference is there was always a central theme of training and training well to prepare to take back what is yours. Or to train in order to fulfill a destiny. The modern scifi writers of male centric scifi tended to borrow much from 70's and 80's kung fu movies. Where your trained and trained to defeat your enemies.

 

The term 'chick' may offend some for sure. But just as everyone knows there are chick flicks, considered more for women than men. Sci fantasy and sci fiction have the same category. And Hollywood knows this and markets films accordingly. This Star Wars reboot is heavy into The Mortal Instruments, Nine Lives of Chloe and Lost Girl, female centric viewing audience. 

 

How do I know about some of these shows. I am on the fourth tier of my Netflix watching. I guess the foreign stuff is next, then I guess it is the gay and lesbian stuff.

[stealinghome]

Rey's character was so derivative if not totally steeped in such female leads in shows like, Charmed, The Mortal Instruments, The Witches of East End, The Nine lives of Chloe King, Lost Girl, and Vampire Academy. All very female centric shows with young women or girls whose powers have been blocked shielded or bound. Then all of a sudden the powers are released. But they have little to no understanding of their power and how to use them. The only thing they understand less, is how they fit into their new world. However one thing is clear, they are always the future saviors of something. It is just to bad they are so ill prepared for the task.

You do realize that this describes A New Hope Luke Skywalker to a t, right--minus the part about being a girl?

You're comparing the first third of Rey's journey with Luke's entire journey. It's an apples to oranges comparison (or, more accurately, a third of an apple to a whole apple!). Rey is clearly going to receive at least some training from Luke in the next movie...just like Luke received training from Yoda in ESB. It's not a "chick sci-fi" thing. It's a basic hero's journey template for a hero of either gender. Literally the only difference between Rey at the end of TFA and Luke at the end of ANH is gender.

Edited January 18, 2016 by stealinghome

[VCRTracking]

George Lucas himself did not have the most kind words or thoughts on the movie. I do not know why, but I can guest one reason is. That he literally spent a lifetime building a mythology about the Jedi. Their elitism due to rigorous training, all made completely moot in one 2hr movie. Both Finn and Rey handling lightsabers like they were born to them. Finn really should not have been able to attack that alone parry with Kylo Ren. Yet both Finn and Rey did.

 

The interview he did with Charlie Rose was before he actually saw the whole movie. There was a preview of it a month before the full interview aired, and since that time he had reportedly seen it and said he liked it. Even the New York Times which should have known better didn't bother correcting themselves(which shows they're as desperate for hits as anybody). In the actual Charlie Rose interview he only disliked that it was "retro" which anybody who had seen the trailers could see(and the reason a lot of fans were excited by because it was getting back to "old school" Star Wars).

 

I knew they were going to do a Star Wars sketch when Adam Driver hosted SNL last night.  They didn't really have to exaggerate him from the movie!

 

Edited January 18, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

Rey's character was so derivative if not totally steeped in such female leads in shows like, Charmed, The Mortal Instruments, The Witches of East End, The Nine lives of Chloe King, Lost Girl, and Vampire Academy. All very female centric shows with young women or girls whose powers have been blocked shielded or bound.

 

IMHO, Rey doesn't seem like the above type of character. Those are characters who, for the most part, thought they knew who they were and what their world was, but discover they're wrong. Their stories are about navigating this whole different, dangerous world and learning how to be in it and in most of the ones you listed, balance their specialness with the fact that most people with whom they interact don't even know about the existence of their reality. (and the Halliwell sisters do study, practice, and train to master their powers!) By contrast, Rey knows that she doesn't know the full story of her life. She doesn't think she's in a safe, soft, comfortable environment. She's in a harsh, dangerous environment where she has to fight and scrape to get by. And while she may not know she's an important Force sensitive person, there's nothing to indicate that she thinks she's particularly average either. She's hardworking, tech-savvy, smart. (Luke seems to be a much better fit for your description as Luke did seem to consider himself a pretty ordinary kid with an ordinary life) If Rey can be compared to any contemporary YA heroine, I'd say it would be to a character like Katniss Everdeen, who also has a lot of skills from having to live a hard scrabble existence and who was always considered to be strong and capable. But Rey and Katniss are still very different characters in very different stories. 

 

Rey's discovery of her Force abilities is somewhat reminiscent of the YA stories listed, but it also leads to Rey seeking out training from Luke so doesn't seem to be this gendered split. Also, I'm curious about examples of male-centered sf that involve training and training because the male-centered Chosen One stories I can think of off the top of my head (Harry Potter, Matrix) don't.

[stealinghome]

and the Halliwell sisters do study, practice, and train to master their powers!

Bo from Lost Girl did as well.

[jette]

After Ren kills his father (no surprise there - in this series, all fathers and/or mentors must go), I fully expected Rey to lop off his hand during their tussle. Big surprise when it didn't happen, but then again the ground did split open to prevent it. Guess the writers are waiting for Rey to be fully Jedi-fied before they allow her to chop limbs off of a bad guy...who is undoubtedly a relative of hers. 

[SmithW6079]

Just found this from Cracked: If The New Star Wars Was 100 Times More Honest (And Shorter).

That was hilarious. I'm for anything that mocks JJ Abrams and this derivative excuse for a Star Wars movie.

[Watcher0363]

Just found this from Cracked: If The New Star Wars Was 100 Times More Honest (And Shorter).

 

 

That was hilarious. I'm for anything that mocks JJ Abrams and this derivative excuse for a Star Wars movie.

There are a few of us who will openly admit:

A- This was a reboot and a bad one.

B- Not wanting to pay for the rights to the expanded universe characters was just Disney Greed. Much love Mara Jade!!!

C- The movie is a derivative crap fest.

D- The movie will never make it out of the red. Because that is just how Hollywood rolls.

[Emily Thrace]

There are a few of us who will openly admit:

A- This was a reboot and a bad one.

B- Not wanting to pay for the rights to the expanded universe characters was just Disney Greed. Much love Mara Jade!!!

C- The movie is a derivative crap fest.

D- The movie will never make it out of the red. Because that is just how Hollywood rolls.

 

Whether it was a bad movie or not is purely opinion. Also its really not necessarily one that only a few are brave enough to say, it seems more like most people simply liked the movie. (Based on Rotten Tomatoes IMDB and other review sites). The EU was a case where if they used it they were married to it so instead TPTB decided to create their own story.  (I can't help but point out your complaining the movie is derivative but also that it didn't take its story from a source you approve of. Again it feels more like your attacking the film for not subscribing to your vision of Star Wars rather than anything to do with the film itself).  Most of the movie audience doesn't care about the EU anyway. In the end the movie was never going to please everyone.  That's an impossible task for any film and that doesn't make TFA a bad movie. I see it as more like Guardians of the Galaxy which had a total paint by numbers plot and still managed to be an awesome movie.  Yes the tropes are familiar but they're used in way that still makes for a fun ride and TFA has its own perspective that makes this movie worthwhile.

[Zuleikha]

A- This was a reboot and a bad one.

This is factually not a reboot. It's a sequel. Everything we saw in the original trilogy and prequel trilogy happened. The Force Awakens is decades later and primarily involves new characters. It is telling a new story.

 

I love the movie, but I think there are reasonable critiques of it. I don't think critiques that basically boil down to "it has a female lead who is good at stuff and has a moment of triumph over the main villain" or "the spaceships use the same design as the original trilogy" are reasonable, though. 

[JessePinkman]

D- The movie will never make it out of the red. Because that is just how Hollywood rolls.

 

Disney spent 4 billion dollars to purchase Lucas Films, this movie has already made over a billion dollars in less than a month, the budget to make the movie was *only* 200 million dollars (so technically this movie is so out of the red that it's translucent).

 

Between Blu-ray/digital downloads/ merchandising and games, etc. there's no way anyone is losing money in this deal. And the other movies, no matter their quality to be quite honest, will make bank. The prequels are some of the most successful movies of all time and 98% of people hate them. Disney is making money hand over fist with Star Wars, they'll never lose money making Star Wars. It's like printing money.

[Danny Franks]

There are a few of us who will openly admit:

A- This was a reboot and a bad one.

B- Not wanting to pay for the rights to the expanded universe characters was just Disney Greed. Much love Mara Jade!!!

C- The movie is a derivative crap fest.

D- The movie will never make it out of the red. Because that is just how Hollywood rolls.

 

I think what you mean is, there are only a few of you who feel like this. And I think you're flat out wrong on every one of those points. That's the good thing about opinions.

 

The current box office total for the movie is listed as $1.8billion. I have no idea what the merchandising numbers are, but they must run into the hundreds of millions. This one movie alone has probably paid for over half of Disney's outlay. By the time they release Episode VIII, they'll probably have made twice as much as they originally paid to Lucas.

 

As has already been pointed out, the movie is not a reboot in any sense, because it's not erasing anything that has gone before. Except for that precious extended universe, I guess, but frankly, I don't give a shit about a bunch of mediocre cash-in novels. It bears similarities to A New Hope because it uses the same storytelling mechanism of the Hero's Journey, a mechanism that the prequels unwisely did not use. There is a lot of nostalgia based stuff in there, and the iconography deliberately evokes the first movie, but why on earth wouldn't it? People love the first movie.

 

And honestly, why would Disney even want to take on all that extended universe crap anyway? As if the mainstream audience is going to care about Mara Jade or Admiral Thrawn or anyone like that. All keeping that stuff does is make it harder for Disney to craft new stories. Dumping it is the smartest thing they could have done. As for myself, I'm sad that KOTOR probably isn't canon in this new world, but that doesn't affect my enjoyment of The Force Awakens.

 

But the best thing about Disney buying the franchise is, they know how to make movies. Lucas had apparently forgotten.

 

I love the movie, but I think there are reasonable critiques of it. I don't think critiques that basically boil down to "it has a female lead who is good at stuff and has a moment of triumph over the main villain" or "the spaceships use the same design as the original trilogy" are reasonable, though.

 

 

 

I don't think they are either. Rey is a sympathetic, appealing protagonist, and Daisy Ridley's acting is very solid. That's what I want from a hero in a movie like this. I really don't need said protagonist to also have a penis. I thought Rey was great, and I'm excited to see how her journey continues in the next two movies.

 

As for the ships, well of course they're the same. Why change designs when the ones you have work? This applies in real life as well as fantastical space life. The US Air Force designed and built fighter planes thirty and forty years ago that they still use today. Because it's really expensive and time consuming to replace them, and you don't even know if the things you might replace them with would work as well. So you make small improvements to their design, you try to address any flaws and you keep trucking with them until you absolutely have to get something new.

[Snarryfan]

I got lost somewhere around the point where I got the impression that a character who says "I can take what I want" to a woman strapped down in a chair is *not* supposed to be creepy, but sexy instead. Is rape innuendo the new sexy?

 

Or there are people who are into dub-con/non-con and they shouldn't be kink shamed.  Not everyone who finds Kylo/Rey an interesting dynamic to explore in fic is interested in "woobifying" him.

[JessePinkman]

Or there are people who are into dub-con/non-con and they shouldn't be kink shamed.  Not everyone who finds Kylo/Rey an interesting dynamic to explore in fic is interested in "woobifying" him.

 

No, no that's gross. He kidnapped her and held her against her will, that isn't some "kink" to be shamed. Shipping the insane mass murderer with the hero is the definition of woobifying.

[Snarryfan]

No, no that's gross. He kidnapped her and held her against her will, that isn't some "kink" to be shamed. Shipping the insane mass murderer with the hero is the definition of woobifying.

Putting them in fic together isn't shipping. Shipping is hoping that there will be a relationship between the 2 characters. Writing darkfic or non-con fic with the 2 characters isn't shipping them--it's writing scenarios using the existing text. There is also fic with Kylo and Poe that explores the exact same dynamics.

[SeanC]

No, no that's gross. He kidnapped her and held her against her will, that isn't some "kink" to be shamed. Shipping the insane mass murderer with the hero is the definition of woobifying.

That's very much a kink. Women (and most such writers are) writing fanfic for themselves and people of similar tastes aren't doing anything to anyone else.

"Woobifying" generally involves giving him a radically different personality, which isn.'the necessary for many such diva, anyway. Though in any event, if you're writing a continuation of the story and want to give character development, you can take the characters any direction you want -- that's kind of the whole idea of fanfic.

[Watcher0363]

Disney spent 4 billion dollars to purchase Lucas Films, this movie has already made over a billion dollars in less than a month, the budget to make the movie was *only* 200 million dollars (so technically this movie is so out of the red that it's translucent).

 

Between Blu-ray/digital downloads/ merchandising and games, etc. there's no way anyone is losing money in this deal. And the other movies, no matter their quality to be quite honest, will make bank. The prequels are some of the most successful movies of all time and 98% of people hate them. Disney is making money hand over fist with Star Wars, they'll never lose money making Star Wars. It's like printing money.

Well D was an inside Hollywood joke. That I was using to gauge the general knowledge of commenters. Ask Peter Jackson and the Tolkien estate about those net payments from The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Watcher0363

[MrsR]

Oh goodness gracious the fanfic. 

 

I did however enjoy the one where Kylo is molested by the force ghost of...

 

Jar Jar Binks.

[JessePinkman]

Putting them in fic together isn't shipping. Shipping is hoping that there will be a relationship between the 2 characters. Writing darkfic or non-con fic with the 2 characters isn't shipping them--it's writing scenarios using the existing text. There is also fic with Kylo and Poe that explores the exact same dynamics.

 

My point still stands, it's gross, writing a non-con (why don't they just call it what it is, rape) is gross and deserves to be kinkshamed (it doesn't even fit into my understanding of kink, which is where two consenting adults share a non-conformist or traditional interest). Just my opinion, of course.

 

Well D was an inside Hollywood joke. That I was using to gauge the general knowledge of commenters. 

 

Oh yeah, good one.

[SeanC]

My point still stands, it's gross, writing a non-con (why don't they just call it what it is, rape) is gross and deserves to be kinkshamed (it doesn't even fit into my understanding of kink, which is where two consenting adults share a non-conformist or traditional interest). Just my opinion, of course.

The kink is on the part of the author and any readers.  The characters aren't real, they aren't being harmed; if you have domination/rape fantasies and want to write fic about it, what's the problem?  A lot of aspects of erotica transgress legality in various ways, and in ways that the authors would readily admit they would never for a second consider practicing in real life nor consider at all desirable (see also: the longstanding cultural fascination with incest).

[Snarryfan]

Also, there are SW: TFA fics being written with A/B/O dynamics. So if your kink is Poe knotting Fin, mazel tov, if not, none of my business.

[Zuleikha]

Oh goodness gracious the fanfic.

I did however enjoy the one where Kylo is molested by the force ghost of...

Jar Jar Binks.

 

I'm going to just pretend you're making this up, and I'm going to be much happier believing that.

 

Also, there are SW: TFA fics being written with A/B/O dynamics. So if your kink is Poe knotting Fin, mazel tov, if not, none of my business.

Ditto for this one.

[InsertWordHere]

Well D was an inside Hollywood joke. That I was using to gauge the general knowledge of commenters. 

I don't see how the standard Hollywood accounting practice of keeping blockbuster films in the red (yes, I passed your general knowledge question), however repugnant it might seem to most of us, is relevant to your criticism of Disney, considering George Lucas used the same practice. David Prowse might not have gotten his share of the profits for Return of the Jedi and that's ridiculous, but Harrison Ford is for sure going to see his share for The Force Awakens. 

[lion10]

Rey made serious mistakes in the Force Awakens, too. She released the rathtar on accident, almost getting Finn killed.

How was Finn bumbling? We didn't see much of him with a blaster, but he shot down the First Order ships in both air engagements, which allowed him and Poe and then him and Rey to escape. He captured Phasma to bring down the shields, and with neither Force training nor (presumably) Force sensitivity, he was able to hold off Kylo Ren long enough for Rey to return to consciousness. And he was savvy enough to know that the First Order would have agents reporting to them in Maz Kanata's (which no one else seemed to believe or at least to try and prepare for). He had comedic lines, but so did Han Solo and Poe Dameron. It's not like Finn was a C-3PO or Jar-Jar type of character, who just bumbled through events with no clue or intention.

Rey's "mistake" of releasing the mini-Cthulhus served to save them from the bounty hunters and she saved Finn from them as well, because of course he needed saving. Her mistake led to zero negative consequences. And while she got captured by Kylo she was able to mentally overpower him and escape. And she probably would've been able to escape the base as well given enough time. Because I thought she was screwed when she was strapped to the torture table in the heart of Starkiller base, but she managed extremely well.

Finn has very few skills compared to Poe or Rey and it's highlighted as comedy. He doesn't know how to fly a ship, he doesn't know any language except for Basic, he, a trained soldier, gets coldcocked by Rey and BB-8, and he keeps handing Rey the wrong tool to use on the ship until Rey has to finally get it herself. He doesn't have any useful non-combat skills from his time at Starkiller base as he was in sanitation. And Kylo was clearly toying with Finn throughout the fight. Finn really only knows how to shoot. He can shoot blasters and he can shoot spaceship gun turrets. And apparently he's in the top 1% of all stormtroopers in the Academy but he still loses to Nines in the movie. Nice.

On the other hand Poe is an amazing pilot and a presumably decent shot. Rey knows multiple languages, is great in close quarters combat, is such a great pilot that she can outmanuver the much smaller TIE fighters, and is very strong with the Force. Compared to Poe or Rey, Finn's skill set is severely lacking to the point that I'm wondering why this guy's a main character.

[Danny Franks]

Finn was competent enough at shooting missiles and TIE Fighters, so therefore I don't think the description 'bumbling' fits. He had skills that were demonstrated in the movie, he showed bravery on more than one occasion, he was able to think on his feet and come up with a way of getting the shields down on Starkiller Base.

 

His interpersonal skills are lacking because he's been trained from childhood as a soldier. He doesn't know how to talk to someone like Rey, or how to deal with a creature like Chewie. Why would he, when he's probably never been exposed to them?

 

Why is he a main character? Because audiences are often given a sympathetic 'everyman' figure to identify with. Someone who is a bit clueless and hapless, who engenders audience sympathy by being out of his depth, but then he grows and saves the day in the end. Now, Finn didn't save the day here, but he definitely had a hand in it. And this is only the beginning of his journey. Yes, he has some comedy moments, because again, a movie wants its audience to enjoy it, and laughter is often part of that enjoyment. But Han had some comedy moments, so did Chewie, so did Poe and Rey. Finn just had more.

[benteen]

Agreed.  Finn proved to be a good shot with a blaster, both the hand-held type and the turret on the Falcon and the TIE fighter.  Poe only got off of the Star Destroyer because of him.  His knowledge of the First Order was vital in destroying Starkiller Base.  He lost that fight to Nines because he was fighting with an unfamiliar weapon, which he still managed to handle pretty well in the end.

[lion10]

Finn was competent enough at shooting missiles and TIE Fighters, so therefore I don't think the description 'bumbling' fits. He had skills that were demonstrated in the movie, he showed bravery on more than one occasion, he was able to think on his feet and come up with a way of getting the shields down on Starkiller Base.

His interpersonal skills are lacking because he's been trained from childhood as a soldier. He doesn't know how to talk to someone like Rey, or how to deal with a creature like Chewie. Why would he, when he's probably never been exposed to them?

Why is he a main character? Because audiences are often given a sympathetic 'everyman' figure to identify with. Someone who is a bit clueless and hapless, who engenders audience sympathy by being out of his depth, but then he grows and saves the day in the end. Now, Finn didn't save the day here, but he definitely had a hand in it. And this is only the beginning of his journey. Yes, he has some comedy moments, because again, a movie wants its audience to enjoy it, and laughter is often part of that enjoyment. But Han had some comedy moments, so did Chewie, so did Poe and Rey. Finn just had more.

Both Poe and Rey had big hero moments and Finn's greatest accomplishment was getting stomped by Kylo to setup Rey for her hero moment.

[SophiaD]

 

Now, Finn didn't save the day here, but he definitely had a hand in it. And this is only the beginning of his journey. Yes, he has some comedy moments, because again, a movie wants its audience to enjoy it, and laughter is often part of that enjoyment. But Han had some comedy moments, so did Chewie, so did Poe and Rey. Finn just had more.

 

Finn was a main character, also, because his character had a powerful trajectory.  He overcame a lifetime of conditioning to leave a system that he identified as wrong and brutal, established a plan to get free, capably carried it out, and, at the first appropriate opportunity, identified himself as a former Stormtrooper (which I thought was amazingly courageous, in that he risked being plugged on the spot).  Having him be an expert in everything would have been overkill.  He's really the moral center of the movie for me and an amazing foil for Kylo Ren.

Edited January 20, 2016 by SophiaD

[HeySandyStrange]

Both Poe and Rey had big hero moments and Finn's greatest accomplishment was getting stomped by Kylo to setup Rey for her hero moment.

 

Considering that Finn is probably not Force-sensitive and has had no training with a lightsaber, I thought him having the courage to stand up to Kylo and stay by Rey's side through it all was pretty powerful. Not to mention rejecting a life times worth of brain-washing because of his innate morality. In some ways I find him the most relatable character in the new series and he has the most potential for growth over the next two movies.

[nksarmi]

My house came up with a theory that Finn is a descendant of Mace Windu.  Shut up - his ability to throw off the mind-washing at least makes it possible.

 

I'm pretty sure Rey is Luke's daughter so I'm not seeing any issue with anything she did in this movie.

[SNeaker]

I won't cry if he does, but I'm hoping Finn doesn't turn out to have any special powers. To me, the people who do extraordinary things (which Finn did in this movie in a bunch of ways, most importantly having the courage and moral fortitude to defect despite his conditioning) without magic powers are all the more admirable. But I've always been a sucker for the funny sidekicks who are brave, loyal, and good despite not being the "chosen ones."

[lion10]

It's Star Wars, all the main characters are brave. You might as well say he has two legs.

[SNeaker]

Yes, but the reason he's a main character in Star Wars rather than random person #426 is because of his bravery. He's (presumably) no one special as far as the force or his family or being a specially trained and talented pilot, but he put his stamp on this story and this universe by doing something amazing.

[anna0852]

I won't cry if he does, but I'm hoping Finn doesn't turn out to have any special powers. To me, the people who do extraordinary things (which Finn did in this movie in a bunch of ways, most importantly having the courage and moral fortitude to defect despite his conditioning) without magic powers are all the more admirable. But I've always been a sucker for the funny sidekicks who are brave, loyal, and good despite not being the "chosen ones."

A thousand times this! 

[SophiaD]

There's "brave" and then there's "extraordinarily brave."  First off, Finn didn't have to do any of this.  He could have quelled his loathing for killing, "gone along to get along," and become just another Stormtrooper, as millions of people collaborated or served unjust regimes for millennia. (Even without nifty Empire mind-conditioning tricks).  He had a decent enough life.  Food, shelter, companionship, of sort; potentially promotion some day.  All he had to do is resign himself to "following orders."  

 

Then, to hatch a plot, rescue Poe Dameron, and walk off with him, in front of all of this officers and troopers?  He had to know that if he was caught, he would have been lucky if they killed him quickly.  If the First Order is anything like the regimes it mirrors, they almost certainly took a dim view of traitors and made examples of them.

 

Then again, confessing that he used to be a Stormtrooper, while surrounded by rebels with guns?  He had no way of knowing they were kind and generous people.  He could hope they were, but how would he know?

 

Finally, giving up the sure thing of a berth on a ship away from the conflict, and going back and saving Rey?  When he *knew* just what he would be facing?  Bravery.  Stone, cold, bravery.

 

Now, that might not be as exciting as blowing up a Death Star or winning a lightsaber battle, but, to me, in a sense, it makes him more admirable, as Sneaker said above.  It's easy to be brave and do heroic things, if you're just naturally better and braver and stronger than everyone else.  It's a lot harder  to stand against everything you've been taught and do the right thing, when you're the lonely voice in the wilderness.

Edited January 20, 2016 by SophiaD

[Mabinogia]

Beautifully put SophiaD. Finn amazed with his quiet bravery. It wasn't flashy blowing shit up like you say, but doing the bravest thing of all, IMO, is going against everything you know, everything you have been trained to be, taught, programmed to be, going against all of that because it's simply the right thing to do. He didn't defect because he was promised anything. Finn is awesome! I wish he got more respect because his story if really interesting.

[JessePinkman]

The release date for Episode VIII has been postponed until December 2017.

 

*cries into the ether*

[benteen]

Disappointed but not surprised by the delay.  I thought they were pushing things by trying to get out the sequel in only 18 months.  Get a sequel out in less than two years and you get dog shit like Iron Man 2.

 

Though this means another seven months of speculation on Rey's origins and seven more months of the latest "Who is Snoke?" theory.

[Lantern7]

It would be cool if Mace Windu was Finn's grandfather. I know, he seemed adherent to Jedi rules (re: no nookie), but I'd welcome Samuel L. Jackson as a Force Ghost. And open profanity. "I have had it with these motherfucking Sith on this motherfucking Starkiller Base!!!"

 

ETA: So we'd have to wait two years between installments instead of three. Works for me. And I'm out of the loop . . . how often will the tie-in films be launched?

[Spartan Girl]

I'm a little pissed, but it had better be worth it.

[lion10]

I won't cry if he does, but I'm hoping Finn doesn't turn out to have any special powers. To me, the people who do extraordinary things (which Finn did in this movie in a bunch of ways, most importantly having the courage and moral fortitude to defect despite his conditioning) without magic powers are all the more admirable. But I've always been a sucker for the funny sidekicks who are brave, loyal, and good despite not being the "chosen ones."

 

But I don't want Finn to be a sidekick, I want him to be a main character in his own right and not constantly bringing up the rear.  And the Star Wars story is at its core about the Jedi and the Sith and their never ending struggle for dominance.  Force users simply have more agency in their actions than anyone else and while non-Force users may help, ultimately the big decisions are made by and revolve around the Jedi and the Sith.  But really, I wouldn't be complaining as much if JJ Abrams hadn't misdirected people into thinking Finn was going to be a Jedi, thus giving hope to millions of minorities, before pulling a "psych" and once again handing the hero role to a white protagonist  So honestly, I'm wary of anyone making the argument that Finn shouldn't be the Jedi because he should be the "everyman".  It's purely coincidental of course that they want the one black guy in the trilogy to not be a Force user.