S03.E06: Where The Apples Fell

[formerlyfreedom]

Nolan and Berlin pursue the Tarrs after their connection to the Votanis Collective is exposed; at the same time, Alak comes to grips with his future as a father.

[mustbekarma]

Ummm, Stahma, if you're trying to convince your son that slicing his wife's throat was to protect the baby, perhaps you shouldn't kick him in the ribs and spit on him. I'm just saying. Datak is not the only Tarr with impulse control issues.

 

I solemnly swear that Datak's reaction after learning that Nolan and Alak played him was perhaps one of the best moments of the series, and not just the best moment of this episode. Alak took some manipulation lessons from Stahma, that's for sure.

 

This episode was amazing, and Luke Bear was so freaking adorable, especially when he wanted Irisa to hold him again. You know, I actually could see Alak and Irisa getting together. I know Alak is still grieving for Christie, but I thought I saw a spark between those two crazy kids. Besides, Irisa would gut anyone who would try to hurt the baby. She'd get over her aversion to killing in a heartbeat if the baby was in danger.

 

General Cray Cray gets all hot and bothered when looking at his head collection, and then killed his wife. I actually like the fact he's gone off the reservation and that the Votanis Collective isn't actively pursuing the genocide of all humans. The whole peace movement after The Defiant Ones wouldn't have made sense, otherwise.

 

So Papa Purple People Eater is getting it on with his daughter. Ew. So the Omec eat people and have sex with their children. I really hope those two are the last of their kind and they don't save the frozen ones on the ship.

 

All in all, this was an excellent episode.

[Chaos Theory]

I think this might have been my favorite episode of the season. The early scenes with Stahma yelling at her ungrateful son. Alec telling Nolan the truth about how what his parents have been doing. Actually all the Alec/Nolan scenes hit the mark.

General Crazy worked for me too. I like that VC aren't enforcing his plan but he has gone so far off the reservation that there is no turning back for him.

The Stahma/Amanda fight was intense. I was actually thinking one of them was going to buy it.

[SimoneS]

I thought that episode was predictable and boring. Of course, Datak and Stahma are going to get away with their crimes so stop wasting the airtime. The only scenes I liked were Alak and Nolan getting one over on his father and bonding, Datak telling Nolan about Rafe's death, and Alak and Irisa with the baby and their growing chemistry. The general killing his wife was clearly done to show that he is a lunatic. The Omec incest was pretty gross.

[HeySandyStrange]

You know, I actually could see Alak and Irisa getting together. I know Alak is still grieving for Christie, but I thought I saw a spark between those two crazy kids

 

 

I've been thinking the same thing, ever since Alak saw Irisa at the camp and Irisa first saved and bonded with Luke Bear. Their scene together proved to me that the have chemistry. They certainly wouldn't be boring, though I do think it needs to build slowly since poor Christie just barely went to her grave.

 

Alak is really coming into his own. He seems to be picking up on the guile and underhanded tactics of his parents while still basically being a good person. The fake out with Nolen was great, I was fooled tbh. Datak's actor should also get kudos, he really sold the hell out of that scene.

 

The Stahma/Amanda fight was intense. I was actually thinking one of them was going to buy it.

 

 

I found it a little hard to swallow, going by what we know of the two characters. Stahma, who has always relied on cunning and manipulation to get what she wants, was able to throw down and throw down hard with Amanda? The same Amanda who we saw bouncing grown men out of the Need/Want last season? I know Stahma is ruthless and intense, but I never saw her as really holding her own in an actual physical fight with a stronger opponent.

 

I kind of called the Papa/Daughter Omec mating dance but sort of wish it wasn't true. Ugh. Makes me almost long for some sibling and/or twincest. I'd wonder how the hell a species who eats people and sleeps with their children got so damn advanced.

[thuganomics85]

As much as I love the Tarrs, they really are going to have their work cut out for them if I can ever buy them actually making out alive this season.  Granted, they've always been shady and certainly done their fair share of killing, but I have to think a good portion of Defiance now will want them dead, now that it is know that they are traitors.  Sure, it still sounds like some of them are buying what Rahm is selling, but at this point, I can't see them not making it to the finale.  But I have a feeling they will.  Even if Datak is currently in prison and Stahma just got a letter opener in her side: I still think they'll somehow get buy, and I hope the show has a logical reason for it.

 

I'm usually good at separating the actors from their past work, but during the Amanda/Stahma fight, I just kept thinking of how Julie Benz and Jaime Murray were on Dexter together, and how I'm sure Rita (Julie) would have really liked to have kicked Lila's (Jaime) ass.

 

Alak and Nolan was surprisingly good.  I like that Nolan asked about Rafe finally, because it did feel like only Christie was actually getting named dropped, even if it makes sense.  And I actually do wonder if they might be planting seeds over a future Alak/Irisa pairing, because all their scenes with Baby Luke did kind of stand out, plus I felt like Jesse Rath and Stephanie Leonidas kind of played it that way.  I'd be for it just to see their families' reaction.

 

I wonder if Yewll is going to get any blowback for helping the Tarrs.

 

So... Omec incest, now?  Between this and last season's Helix, this seems to be a popular thing on SyFy.

 

I guess something is going to come out of the guns dealer being Berlin's former boyfriend and Amanda telling her to make contact with him.

 

Of course, Rahm would kill his wife.  I get it, show: he's a nutjob.  Lets just go ahead and get this fight started.

Edited July 11, 2015 by thuganomics85

[AlliMo]

I really liked this episode, but by far my favorite part was Yewl confessing to her helplessness before Amanda's Braid of Justice. Like we didn't all know she's always had a thing for her.

[johntfs]

 

 

I kind of called the Papa/Daughter Omec mating dance but sort of wish it wasn't true. Ugh. Makes me almost long for some sibling and/or twincest. I'd wonder how the hell a species who eats people and sleeps with their children got so damn advanced.

 

 

The main practical reason for the incest taboo is the increased risk of undesirable genetic traits or diseases expressing themselves. The Omec apparently created the rest of the Votan as servant races through genetic engineering, so genetic damage isn't really a factor for them. Throwing incest out there is a pretty damned effective way of reinforcing that the Omec are not human beings even a little bit.

[MDKNIGHT]

"I'm usually good at separating the actors from their past work, but during the Amanda/Stahma fight, I just kept thinking of how Julie Benz and Jaime Murray were on Dexter together, and how I'm sure Rita (Julie) would have really liked to have kicked Lila's (Jaime) ass."

Sorry the quote button doesn't work on my computer.

Anyway-Now I'm picturing Darla the vampire (Julie Benz) vs Helena (HG) Wells (Jaimie Murray).  These two actresses who seem via twitter to be close friends sure provide an interesting array of fight club fodder.  However I see your point.   Stahma has gotten her way through manipulation (both sexual and familial) or poisoning. Amanda has experience in the hands on, mano ah mano combat,  form of settling things.  Amanda should have won.  At least she got to stab Stahma so it wasn't a complete logic fail. 

 

I also agree that the Tarrs will once again be charmic Houdinis and escape execution or permanent jailing.  I get why this is, they are popular and played by very entertaining actors BUT I am still scratching my head as to how Amanda would not arrest them for Kenya's murder.  The Tarrs are the Regina Mills (Once Upon a Time) of this show but I wish the writers earned their pay by coming up with a reasonable reason for them to escape justice.  OUAT can't do it either but I think the writing is much better for this show so I expect more.

Edited July 11, 2015 by MDKNIGHT

[GaT]

This was a meh episode for me. I liked Nolan & Alak punking Datak, the Stahma & Amanda fight, & Alak & Irisa with Luke. but definitely not Omec incest. I'm also over Rahm, they keep dragging it out, we get it, he's crazy, either have him shit or get off the pot.

[SimoneS]

I hope the writers' plan is to have Alak mature and become a better man by spending more time with Nolan as season progresses. They were going in that direction with Alak with Rafe, but that came to a grounding halt. Putting Alak and the baby in the Nolan/Irisa/Amanda group would make up for murdering Rafe and Christie and the murders and crimes that the Tarrs constantly get away with.

 

I have been wondering if they really put color contacts in the baby's eyes or if they are using CGI. I hope it is CGI.

 

I also agree that the Tarrs will once again be charmic Houdinis and escape execution or permanent jailing.  I get why this is, they are popular and played by very entertaining actors BUT I am still scratching my head as to how Amanda would not arrest them for Kenya's murder.  The Tarrs are the Regina Mills (Once Upon a Time) of this show but I wish the writers earned their pay by coming up with a reasonable reason for them to escape justice.  OUAT can't do it either but I think the writing is much better for this show so I expect more.

 

I was pretty much through with the Tarrs (and Defiance to some degree) when Amanda let Stahma get away with murdering Kenya. The Tarrs run around murdering people and it is all shrugged off. Now the writers are going to come up with a BS rationale as they live clear and free in Defiance after blowing up the arch and murdering even more people.

[shapeshifter]

As Stahma is trying to convince to Alak that Christie wanted Stahma to kill her to save the baby, we see a flashback of Christie's face that does seem to support Stahma's claim. Assuming that is true, why would Christie and Stahma think that killing Christie would necessarily save the baby's life? I guess the rationale is that the bad guys would leave right after that without ransacking the place for loot and not find the baby and/or the baby would not cry out--both of which did happen and the baby's other crazy grandma came along to rescue him--but all of that seems like a real long shot and not any more likely to save the baby's life than killing Datak instead. So, other than Datak being a main character and better actor to keep around, it seems like a pretty flimsy plot point for them to trot out again in a flashback.

The main practical reason for the incest taboo is the increased risk of undesirable genetic traits or diseases expressing themselves. The Omec apparently created the rest of the Votan as servant races through genetic engineering, so genetic damage isn't really a factor for them. Throwing incest out there is a pretty damned effective way of reinforcing that the Omec are not human beings even a little bit.

True. Cats and dogs do it.

With Rafe gone, there isn't much of a moral compass (although I guess that Irisa is supposed to be that now) so next thing, dogs and cats will be doing it together.

Edited July 11, 2015 by shapeshifter

[mustbekarma]

With Rafe gone, there isn't much of a moral compass (although I guess that Irisa is supposed to be that now) so next thing, dogs and cats will be doing it together.

Mass hysteria.

Edited July 11, 2015 by mustbekarma

[Clanstarling]

The Stahma/Amanda fight was intense. I was actually thinking one of them was going to buy it.

I thought the same thing, and realized if they hadn't started the season wiping out the entire McCauley clan, I would not have believed they would kill one of them off.

 

As Stahma is trying to convince to Alak that Christie wanted Stahma to kill her to save the baby, we see a flashback of Christie's face that does seem to support Stahma's claim. Assuming that is true, why would Christie and Stahma think that killing Christie would necessarily save the baby's life? I guess the rationale is that the bad guys would leave right after that without ransacking the place for loot and not find the baby and/or the baby would not cry out--both of which did happen and the baby's other crazy grandma came along to rescue him--but all of that seems like a real long shot and not any more likely to save the baby's life than killing Datak instead. So, other than Datak being a main character and better actor to keep around, it seems like a pretty flimsy plot point for them to trot out again in a flashback.

I found the rationale both believable and an important character choice. When I watched that episode, I thought that Christie was indeed giving "permission" for that very reason - that once she was dead, they'd leave quickly, hopefully before the baby cried. He's been shown as a fairly placid baby, so I think it wasn't unreasonable to think it might get Rahm's crowd out of there before he cried. Stahma seemed torn between letting them kill Datak, with whom she'd had a rocky relationship - and killing Christie. Christie's "permission" tipped the scales for her. It was a long shot, but the only option available that might save the baby. They didn't  have a long time to think about the pros and cons - just a glance, mother to grandmother. So I think that they're showing it again to show that Stahma believes Alak should be thankful she killed Christie to save his son's life. She tells herself a lot of complicated lies to believe she's a good person with good intentions.

 

I didn't find the incest story as disturbing as others. If they were modern humans, or a show that was reality based, I would not like that snippet of their culture at all. But they are so clearly portrayed as aliens with very different rules and culture - even from the Votans we already know. They also acknowledged that their relationship is unusual, perhaps even anathema, for the Omecs, since they'd been essentially monogamous until they got to Earth, and the Omec society was anything but, which may come into play if and when the Omecs in stasis are revived. We have certainly had human cultures that practiced incest. The Ancient Egyptians, for example - at least among the ruling class.

 

I liked this episode. I liked seeing a glimpse of Rahm Tak's life before he was bat shit crazy.

Edited July 11, 2015 by clanstarling

[MDL]

 

I have been wondering if they really put color contacts in the baby's eyes or if they are using CGI. I hope it is CGI.

I had read somewhere (?) that for this season, Irisa's eyes were being added by CGI (as opposed to last season(s) where she wore contacts).

If that's true, then I'd guess that they are doing CGI for the baby as well.

I'd like to hope that the showrunners would not subject a baby to those lenses. (Would it even be legal/medically proper?)

[shapeshifter]

...I thought that Christie was indeed giving "permission" for that very reason - that once she was dead, they'd leave quickly, hopefully before the baby cried. He's been shown as a fairly placid baby, so I think it wasn't unreasonable to think it might get Rahm's crowd out of there before he cried. Stahma seemed torn between letting them kill Datak, with whom she'd had a rocky relationship - and killing Christie. Christie's "permission" tipped the scales for her. It was a long shot, but the only option available that might save the baby...

Yes, but the plan still included abandoning a helpless baby. IDK. Maybe it bugged me because my 3 kids all made noise all the time when they were babies unless they were sleeping or being amused.

[Clanstarling]

Yes, but the plan still included abandoning a helpless baby. IDK. Maybe it bugged me because my 3 kids all made noise all the time when they were babies unless they were sleeping or being amused.

True enough, though I'm not sure there was enough thought behind it to be a plan - just a desperate decision.

 

When I watched that episode and saw the baby's arm move (when Stahma saw it) I thought, man they need to get out of the house fast before the baby starts crying for attention. Because,  as a viewer I knew Alac and psycho grandma would rescue the baby. I think (though I may be mistaken) that's when Stahma and Christie shared that glance. And Christie, though not Stahma, knew Alac was around, just not in the house.

 

I think maybe it didn't bug me because I've read so many stories of desperate decisions like this during the Holocaust. The one I remember most was kind of the opposite - where a baby was smothered so that it wouldn't give away the position of an escaping group.

[Izeinwinter]

I have a crackpot theory about the Omec. They are the result of the proto-Omec banning genetic engineering. Which let to genetic engineering being used by rich Omec criminals and other amoral rich people with absolutely no public review of what they were shaping their children into.. And then things went downhill from there. 

Edited July 11, 2015 by Izeinwinter

[zxy556575]

I would have expected Alak to be more understanding of Stahma's explanation when he himself was held prisoner by both Pilar and Rahm and forced to do their bidding. There was no reason for his mother to have murdered Christie of her own volition. He is certainly seeing his parents for what they are now, but I still thought that was a pretty big assumption for him to make.

 

I'm worried for Doc Yewll again, putting her safety and freedom at risk because of a prison yard friendship with Datak.

[raven]

Except for Alak, I'm still finding the Tarr's actions out of character.  Whatever her reason for doing it, I'm sure it's hard for Alak to get the picture out of his mind of Stahma killing Christie, and then Stahma attempts to block him taking the baby. If she wants Alak to understand and forgive her, throwing him to the ground, crushing him & spitting on him and trying to keep his son from him aren't going to get it done.  She just always wants to have the upper hand; I've no doubt she loves Alak, but she also belitteld him quite a bit when she was running Datak's crime business.   I was glad to see Alak didn't toe the family line.    Datak and Stahma should know that if they came clean with Nolan & Amanda it would have been much better than running.  I was suprised at Datak wanting to leave Defiance, abandoning the last of his family; no matter what she says, you know Stahma doesn't want to do that.  Now she's killed someone again (the deputy), and, as desperate as she is, I also think that given their backgrounds that Amanda should have beaten her.  The character is entertaining, but her constant escapes (no way that wound kills her) feels like the show is propping her up because she's popular. 

 

I did like seeing some general dissent among the town about the VC and Ramtak, we could use some expoloration in that area I think.   The Yewell/Datak, Nolan/Alak, Alak/Irisa pairings all worked for me too.  Loved Yewell's comment about Amanda's braid and the Nolan/Alak fakeout to Datak.  I also enjoyed Datak's reaction of "well played", heh.

 

It's icky but I don't mind they're going there with the Omecs and incest.  IIRC, the alien family units we've seen follow familiar groupings (exception of family bathing) so it makes sense to see something different.   I wish that Stahma hadn't been thrown into their mix, I'm more interested in the Omecs as their own unit.  I didn't expect they would help Nolan but I hope they don't follow the familiar pattern of the daughter rebelling because she's angry about Stahma or whatever.

 

Not particularly interested in Ramtak's background or issues.  Just get on with the attack already.

[susan vance]

I feel like this show kind of flew under the radar this year after getting a big promotional push last year-maybe I'm imagining things? But part of me is wondering of the loss of the McCawley clan might have been a budgetary call as much as storyline dependent.

That said,I really enjoyed this episode. I liked that one of the charges Stahma leveled at Alak was that his captivity forced her to betray her town - it brought me back to the first episode, when Rafe and Datak were competing for prominence in Defiance.

I'm also enjoying how the Irisa/Nolan storyline is progressing; he's respecting her wishes and coming to terms with how his misguided attempts to prepare her for the brutal world affected her. I do believe Nolan truly loves her, and she him, but I also like that the show doesn't shy away from the uglier aspects of what growing up with Nolan must have been like, and the toll it took on Irisa. But seeing her in this episode, and the scene between Nolan and Alak in the bar, showed that ultimately their relationship did become a truly loving and restorative for both of them. I think in many ways Irisa saved Nolan as much as he saved her-I'm hoping the show will continue to explore that.

Speaking of the scene between Nolan and Alak in the bar - the actor playing Alak did a great job there. Alak and Christie's love story felt forced at first, but last season it became one of my favorite storylines, and the way he said "I miss Christie" so simply, and Nolan's sympathy, really moved me.

The baby playing Luke/Bear is incredibly cute, and I love his connection to Irisa. As much as I did appreciate Alak with Christie, I have to say I am rooting for Alak, Irisa, and Luke to form a new little family unit.

[Christina]

I follow the showrunner on Twitter, and he answers every week that the baby, Irisa, and Yewll all have CGI eyes this year. Datak and Stahma wear contacts, and I don't remember a mention of Alak, who is probably contacts also.

[GaT]

I follow the showrunner on Twitter, and he answers every week that the baby, Irisa, and Yewll all have CGI eyes this year. Datak and Stahma wear contacts, and I don't remember a mention of Alak, who is probably contacts also.

They do a good job, the eyes are believable.

[jhlipton]

The main practical reason for the incest taboo is the increased risk of undesirable genetic traits or diseases expressing themselves. The Omec apparently created the rest of the Votan as servant races through genetic engineering, so genetic damage isn't really a factor for them. Throwing incest out there is a pretty damned effective way of reinforcing that the Omec are not human beings even a little bit.

 

The incest didn't bother me -- I've read if All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister  (a great story, BTW, available on-line); Moreover, she chose him, out of all her "other" fathers.  

 

Some good scenes, but a whole lot of stupid going on.

[shapeshifter]

...she [Kindzi] chose him, out of all her "other" fathers...

What did that mean? I didn't watch the previous 2 episodes (only read recaps). Has it been explained?

[Chicago Redshirt]

I solemnly swear that Datak's reaction after learning that Nolan and Alak played him was perhaps one of the best moments of the series, and not just the best moment of this episode. Alak took some manipulation lessons from Stahma, that's for sure.

 

This episode was amazing, and Luke Bear was so freaking adorable, especially when he wanted Irisa to hold him again. You know, I actually could see Alak and Irisa getting together. I know Alak is still grieving for Christie, but I thought I saw a spark between those two crazy kids. Besides, Irisa would gut anyone who would try to hurt the baby. She'd get over her aversion to killing in a heartbeat if the baby was in danger.

 

The thing about Datak's being bluffed -- as far as we saw, he hasn't given up important information about their spying. Namely, that they have a communication device that lets them send and receive info to Rahm's camp. That would allow them to potentially get info about Rahm's plans, or to send disinformation about what Defiance's situation is.

 

I could see Alakrisa, or whatever their shipper name, being a valid thing. Two crazy kids trying to get over the programming their killer dads tried to instill in them.

 

I've been thinking the same thing, ever since Alak saw Irisa at the camp and Irisa first saved and bonded with Luke Bear. Their scene together proved to me that the have chemistry. They certainly wouldn't be boring, though I do think it needs to build slowly since poor Christie just barely went to her grave.

 

I found it a little hard to swallow, going by what we know of the two characters. Stahma, who has always relied on cunning and manipulation to get what she wants, was able to throw down and throw down hard with Amanda? The same Amanda who we saw bouncing grown men out of the Need/Want last season? I know Stahma is ruthless and intense, but I never saw her as really holding her own in an actual physical fight with a stronger opponent.

 

I kind of called the Papa/Daughter Omec mating dance but sort of wish it wasn't true. Ugh. Makes me almost long for some sibling and/or twincest. I'd wonder how the hell a species who eats people and sleeps with their children got so damn advanced.

 

I think the mourning period for Alak will not be too long. Again, he's Casti and not human.

 

As for Stahma, desperation can do strange things.

 

Eating people and sleeping with their children have nothing to do with being advanced. In fact, it could be that despite our cultural aversions to both, in the context of the Omec, eating people and incest could have been a help to their becoming advanced rather than a hindrance.

 

As much as I love the Tarrs, they really are going to have their work cut out for them if I can ever buy them actually making out alive this season.  Granted, they've always been shady and certainly done their fair share of killing, but I have to think a good portion of Defiance now will want them dead, now that it is know that they are traitors.  Sure, it still sounds like some of them are buying what Rahm is selling, but at this point, I can't see them not making it to the finale.  But I have a feeling they will.  Even if Datak is currently in prison and Stahma just got a letter opener in her side: I still think they'll somehow get buy, and I hope the show has a logical reason for it.

 

I'm usually good at separating the actors from their past work, but during the Amanda/Stahma fight, I just kept thinking of how Julie Benz and Jaime Murray were on Dexter together, and how I'm sure Rita (Julie) would have really liked to have kicked Lila's (Jaime) ass.

 

...

I wonder if Yewll is going to get any blowback for helping the Tarrs.

 

...

I guess something is going to come out of the guns dealer being Berlin's former boyfriend and Amanda telling her to make contact with him.

 

Of course, Rahm would kill his wife.  I get it, show: he's a nutjob.  Lets just go ahead and get this fight started.

 

A partial redemption arc could include their playing a pivotal role in stopping the invasion of Defiance.

 

Good call on the Dexter connection.

 

That was one thing that didn't make much sense to me. Nolan, Berlin and Alak let Yewll and Datak go in the hopes that they will lead to Stahma. So as far as we know, they must have gotten into a roller to follow Yewll/Datak, who were in a roller.

 

But then we see that rather than following Yewll/Datak, they are on foot and in front of them. (Yewll goes "lawkeeper at 12 o'clock").

 

Why did they reveal themselves at that point? Why were they on foot? Why did they not call in other resources from the manhunt?  How did no one spot Stahma?

 

Anyway, Yewll is even more slippery than the Tarrs. She can probably come up with some lie about being forced at charge-blade point to help.

 

Speaking of that charge-blade, I hope Datak reclaims his from Rahm.

 

Berlin's former boyfriend being the arm dealer is a little bit of a coincidence, but at least it gives the actor something to do besides being upset about Tommy.

 

As Stahma is trying to convince to Alak that Christie wanted Stahma to kill her to save the baby, we see a flashback of Christie's face that does seem to support Stahma's claim. Assuming that is true, why would Christie and Stahma think that killing Christie would necessarily save the baby's life? I guess the rationale is that the bad guys would leave right after that without ransacking the place for loot and not find the baby and/or the baby would not cry out--both of which did happen and the baby's other crazy grandma came along to rescue him--but all of that seems like a real long shot and not any more likely to save the baby's life than killing Datak instead. So, other than Datak being a main character and better actor to keep around, it seems like a pretty flimsy plot point for them to trot out again in a flashback.

 

It wouldn't necessarily save the baby's life, but at least that way there was a chance for Luke to be saved. 

 

If Stahma didn't act, there was basically 100 percent chance that Christie would be killed anyway, along with Datak and the baby. There was some chance Stahma herself would be spared, if being kept at the camp and subjected to threats can be called spared. Rahm seemed impressed enough by Stahma's posh background, that he might not have killed her. Then again, he is crazy enough that you can't predict what he would do, as evidenced by his killing his wife in cold blood. 

 

I don't know if you missed the episode where this happened, but after slitting Christie's throat, Stahma does her manipulation thing to get Rahm and his people out of the house as soon as possible by saying that the smell of the human offends her delicate, posh senses and she was hoping to go as soon as possible. So it wasn't just luck that had the VC people leave without discovering Luke.

 

I would have expected Alak to be more understanding of Stahma's explanation when he himself was held prisoner by both Pilar and Rahm and forced to do their bidding. There was no reason for his mother to have murdered Christie of her own volition. He is certainly seeing his parents for what they are now, but I still thought that was a pretty big assumption for him to make.

 

On the other hand, just because Stahma was in part motivated by saving Luke doesn't mean she wouldn't have made the same choice even if Luke was not a factor.

 

Stahma is definitely cold-blooded and self-serving enough to consider that if it's Christie or Datak (and possibly her), she should choose Datak any day and twice on Sundays.

What did that mean? I didn't watch the previous 2 episodes (only read recaps). Has it been explained?

I don't think this has been explained. 

 

At a guess, the Omec consider every man a female Omec has sex with their father, and the process starts with their biological father.

[shapeshifter]

...I don't know if you missed the episode where this happened, but after slitting Christie's throat, Stahma does her manipulation thing to get Rahm and his people out of the house as soon as possible by saying that the smell of the human offends her delicate, posh senses and she was hoping to go as soon as possible. So it wasn't just luck that had the VC people leave without discovering Luke...

I did see the throat slitting episode, but may have missed that line, so, thanks! That makes more sense now.

...At a guess, the Omec consider every man a female Omec has sex with their father, and the process starts with their biological father.

If so, I hope they have a line about how the word "father" in Omec language is like "snowflake" in the Inuit language.

[jhlipton]

I hope they have a line about how the word "father" in Omec language is like "snowflake" in the Inuit language.

Any livestock breeder will tell you that, once you have a strain you want to keep and develop, you breed father to daughter and to granddaughter, and then brother to sister. You keep that up indefinitely until the desirable trait shows up recessive, and you stop it there. But it might never show up recessive. In any case, it's rare indeed when anything goes wrong in the very first generation; but you in the bar, there, you're totally convinced that it will.

 

-----

 

"Why? Why? How did human beings come to hate this one thing so much that they would rather die insane and in agony than accept it? How did it happen, Vorhidin?

I don't know, said the Vexveltian.

 

 

Looks like Ted was right about this!

Edited July 12, 2015 by jhlipton

[CoderLady]

It wouldn't necessarily save the baby's life, but at least that way there was a chance for Luke to be saved. 

 

If Stahma didn't act, there was basically 100 percent chance that Christie would be killed anyway, along with Datak and the baby. There was some chance Stahma herself would be spared, if being kept at the camp and subjected to threats can be called spared. Rahm seemed impressed enough by Stahma's posh background, that he might not have killed her. Then again, he is crazy enough that you can't predict what he would do, as evidenced by his killing his wife in cold blood. 

 

I don't know if you missed the episode where this happened, but after slitting Christie's throat, Stahma does her manipulation thing to get Rahm and his people out of the house as soon as possible by saying that the smell of the human offends her delicate, posh senses and she was hoping to go as soon as possible. So it wasn't just luck that had the VC people leave without discovering Luke.

 

 

On the other hand, just because Stahma was in part motivated by saving Luke doesn't mean she wouldn't have made the same choice even if Luke was not a factor.

 

Stahma is definitely cold-blooded and self-serving enough to consider that if it's Christie or Datak (and possibly her), she should choose Datak any day and twice on Sundays.

 

On a more simplistic good vs. evil type of adventure show Stahma would have nobly (by human standards) refused to kill Christie. Rahm Tak would have admired her pluck and allowed them both to live. As it was, there was no good solution to the problem that could be worked out in the 5 seconds or so Stahma had to do something that might get everyone killed. It did look like Christie knew she was going to die no matter what and was giving Stahma permission.

 

I love it when Stahma does her graceful little deferential flutter. It means someone is going to get shot, poisoned, tortured to death or just have the living shit kicked out of them as soon as she can arrange it, and barring unforeseen circumstances she always follows through. The guys with the guns will get Rahm Tak but I'd also be interested in seeing what Stahma has in mind.

Edited July 12, 2015 by CoderLady

[SmithW6079]

Stahma is one of my favorite characters, but she lost my sympathy when she killed the guy from the posse. I don't see how she and Datak can come back from all they've done lately.

[Scarlett45]

I'm surprised the General had an Irathient wife. Given how impressed he seemed with Stahma and her breeding, I thought he'd be far too elitist to consider an Irathient a partner. Bed warmer maybe, but partner/mom to his kids? I was NOT surprised that he killed her though.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Scarlett45

[johntfs]

I'm surprised the General had an Irathient wife. Given how impressed he seemed with Stahma and her breeding, I thought he'd be far to elitist to consider an Irathient a partner. Bed warmer maybe, but partner/mom to his kids? I was NOT surprised that he killed her though.

 

An Irathient wife is something that really piques my interest about what is truly driving Rahm Tak.  It doesn't seem to be simple racism if he's willing to murder his wife and the mother of his children to keep doing it.

[MDKNIGHT]

I know that we are talking about fictional aliens and the writers can make literally anything true of them BUT incest among self aware beings would be bound to  be a more complex thing than animal breeding.  Humans have sex for reasons other than breeding and most people have "Feelings" about it.  Aliens MIGHT have totally different feelings or no feelings about it OR they might not.  However I bring up two things at this point. 

 

One-do we know for sure that the Omecs are incestuous as a whole culture?  I mean we have incest NOW and HERE.  Doesn't mean our CULTURE as a whole is OK with it. We haven't seen other Omecs so we don't know if these Omecs are  practicing incest openly and all the other Omecs do the same, or these two are doing this and keep it a secret.

 

Two- I would say that incest can do harm regardless of genetics because sexual unions involving the huge power differentials between parent and child warp a relationship and basically mess with the kid's head.  In short a pedophile gets to grow his/her victim to order.  I have no way of knowing how the writers are going to present this relationship.  Are they going to present it as -Take a look at incest from a different perspective, maybe we've been too closed minded, or-Some things are bad and the different cultures  need to interact with others to start figuring that out?  For instance I think Casti culture has been presented as very sexist and that Stahma has, through interactions with Kenya and Amanda come to question it.  For instance a Casti female meddling in her husbands business is not tolerated  but Stahma knew she would be a better mob boss than Datak. 

 

So we'll have to see how this shakes out.  So far we know that whatshisname is not only the purple girl's "father" (and even if it turns out he ISN'T her bio father he RAISED her since she said as a child he sat her on his knee and told her the truth about the world coming to an end) AND that he is her Commander ANOTHER position of power over her.  So I'm hoping the writers write this as being unhealthy and ultimately purple girl seeing there is another way, and finding a healthier relationship. 

[Hanahope]

I really like that Alak is developing more into a real character rather than a caricature.

 

So it appeared that Stahma was not completely on board with Datak's plan for a "simple life", but I couldn't see exactly what she was getting from the hiding place.  More guns or money?  It was nice that both Stahma and Datak try to look out for each other, such a love-hate relationship those two.  And agree that I would have though Amanda would have totally beat down on Stahma.

 

Also surprised about Rahm's wife and agree that I would expected him to have a Casti wife as well.  For all that races are intermixing on Earth and certainly knew each other before-hand, I'm surprised that we haven't seen more pre-Earth intermixed families.

[maczero]

I found the rationale both believable and an important character choice. When I watched that episode, I thought that Christie was indeed giving "permission" for that very reason - that once she was dead, they'd leave quickly, hopefully before the baby cried. He's been shown as a fairly placid baby, so I think it wasn't unreasonable to think it might get Rahm's crowd out of there before he cried. Stahma seemed torn between letting them kill Datak, with whom she'd had a rocky relationship - and killing Christie. Christie's "permission" tipped the scales for her. It was a long shot, but the only option available that might save the baby. They didn't  have a long time to think about the pros and cons - just a glance, mother to grandmother. So I think that they're showing it again to show that Stahma believes Alak should be thankful she killed Christie to save his son's life. She tells herself a lot of complicated lies to believe she's a good person with good intentions.

I don't feel Stahma is lying to herself in this case.  I honestly can't think of any other choice she had that didn't end with all their deaths.

 

I would have expected Alak to be more understanding of Stahma's explanation when he himself was held prisoner by both Pilar and Rahm and forced to do their bidding. There was no reason for his mother to have murdered Christie of her own volition. He is certainly seeing his parents for what they are now, but I still thought that was a pretty big assumption for him to make.

 

I'm going with he's just too overcome with grief or that maybe Alak isn't a big picture type of guy.  

 

I'm worried for Doc Yewll again, putting her safety and freedom at risk because of a prison yard friendship with Datak.

 

 

I find myself feeling for Yewll quite often.  I know she was an alien Dr. Mengele but she has tried to work towards redemption.  So far, it's only led to her being blackmailed, threatened, bullied, imprisoned, and mutilated.

 

Another thing I found interesting was the deputy calling Stahma a "haint".  I think it's a realistic touch to show Defiance humans still have their prejudices.

[Black Knight]

I also agree that the Tarrs will once again be charmic Houdinis and escape execution or permanent jailing.  I get why this is, they are popular and played by very entertaining actors BUT I am still scratching my head as to how Amanda would not arrest them for Kenya's murder.  The Tarrs are the Regina Mills (Once Upon a Time) of this show but I wish the writers earned their pay by coming up with a reasonable reason for them to escape justice.  OUAT can't do it either but I think the writing is much better for this show so I expect more.

At least on OUAT Regina has spent two seasons as a reformed villain who has been willing to sacrifice her life and her happiness to save other people and/or because it's the right thing to do, and has managed to keep from backsliding into evil even when experiencing situations that previously triggered evil, and at this point everyone owes their lives to her. I can point to many good things she's done. I love watching Stahma and Datak, but I'm hard-pressed to think of anything they've done for good, and certainly not when any sacrifice on their parts would have been involved. I think Doc Yewll is the more fitting comparison to Regina than either Tarr - someone who has done horrific things and not suffered the standard punishments of life imprisonment or execution for them, but works to be a better person now.

[coyotedelmar]

Really like to see Alak and Irisa end up together based on the episode. Though hoping Alak becomes Nolan new "sidekick," for a little bit at least before then, thought their scenes together were pretty good and (thought) they had chemistry. 

 

Overall liked the fakeout scene with Nolan and Alak, as well as Datak's reaction to it (especially once he found out he was played). Liked Alak and Irisa obviously, and Datak and Nolan towards the end. Was happy to hear that the VC weren't on board with the plans to wipe out the humans. I actually thought Stahma was going to sell out where Datak was in exchange for her life, it felt like she wasn't exactly with Datak on his plan. 

 

The way it was, kind of, set-up at the end it wouldn't be surprising if Stahma and Datak get saved from death by the Omec and Nolan. The Omec can powerplay to keep Stahma safe thanks to the mines, and Nolan seemed accepting of Datak at the end (if that makes sense). 

[diebartdie]

So the "incest" thing bothered me at first but after I thought about it, I dont really see it as incest at all. We have no way of knowing if he is really her father or not. Nolan is not Irisa's bio-father but he did raise her so should rightly be considered her father. They have a very human relationship, in fact their relationship might be completely different if grown up Irisa had found little boy Nolan and raised him (whatever her race is called). The Omec are even more strange. They consume other creatures most people would consider to be people (I worded it like that because at first I was going to say they consume other sentient creatures but hey, so do humans), who knows what their familial relationships are like? As the audience, we just see those two Omecs, we see them refer to each other as "father" and "daughter" and we assume those words mean the exact same thing to them as it does to us but I think that assumption is incorrect. (Although to be honest, this show is not the most subtle thing out there so Im probably giving it more credit than it deserves). The way I'm thinking of it, "father" means "oldest living Alpha male" and "daughter" means "any female able to give birth".......perhaps a female who was barren would then be called "mother" and a male who was impotent or sterile would be called "son"? Who knows, Im just trying to spin it in a direction I can personally be comfortable with and this is my path forward. This show in particular is really hard for me to pin down. Sometimes it seems to want to be fun and wacky, like a good old 90's (or even 80's) style scifi show, other times it seems to want to be so hard and ugly and intense I can hardly stand it. And then there's all the weird, uncomfortable, weirdly shown sex (like Stahma giving 2 hand jobs in the same episode, that to me was just such a WTF couple of moments!!). I dont know about this show, I really don't and happily, there are starting to be many more interesting scifi shows these days, I may end up dumping defiance.

[CoderLady]

Since their culture is alien, I'm ok with the Omecs' familial structure and behaviors. They don't have human religious taboos or nuclear families or genetic mutation issues to make sex with anyone a problem. Maybe reproduction is done by artificial means and there are no actual live births or children in their culture. Whatever the reasons, the main point for me is that the Omec are alien -- I have zero expectation that their social and sexual behavior parallels humanity.

 

I think the show is gutsy for going there. Viewers can accept purple or chalky pale people but struggle with accepting purple or chalky pale people who don't behave exactly like pink people. I love science fiction when it entertains me and makes me think.

[zxy556575]

I'm still trying to recover from the family bath, what with Datak getting in while he was oily-filthy and he and Stahma having sex there.

 

The notion of a penis seems to be shared among these particular aliens, at least. Anyone's guess if they ejaculate, but I still have to be human about how gross it is to share that water!

[maczero]

I'm still trying to recover from the family bath, what with Datak getting in while he was oily-filthy and he and Stahma having sex there.

 

The notion of a penis seems to be shared among these particular aliens, at least. Anyone's guess if they ejaculate, but I still have to be human about how gross it is to share that water!

I take it you're not a fan of hot tubs.

[jhlipton]

At least on OUAT Regina ... has managed to keep from backsliding into evil

 

Other than, ya know, enslaving Sidney and seriously contemplating killing Marion... (Oh, and committing adultery on a fairly regular basis).  Other than that, she's been a positive saint!

 

Who knows, Im just trying to spin it in a direction I can personally be comfortable with and this is my path forward. 

 

Let's skip the genetic issue, because there's no taboo over Ashkenazim Jews or Blacks having sex, in spite of Taylor-Sachs or sickle-cell anemia.  The biggest problem that I see with incest is the power differential.  But that differential will be there no matter which adult teaches children about sex.  Parents can foster or screw up their childrens' sexual nature without having sex with them, so I think that the taboo against incest is a strong one, but an artificial one.

[MDKNIGHT]

The irony for me is that the thing that gets Stahma and Datak in trouble after there getting away with cold blooded murders that they committed out of greed or selfishness is the thing that was actually kind of excusable.  They blew up the arch because their son was being used as a hostage.  Nolan would have blown up the arch for Irisa.  Amanda would have blown it up for Kenya.  (Now personally I don't think there was an excuse for not trying to evacuate it before blowing it up but that is nitpicking).  Stahma and Datak could realistically be forgiven for it if they save the town or something like that BUT really there has been NOTHING to absolve them of murdering Kenya for Datak's "honor" or the countless people they framed or murdered as part of their criminal enterprises.  Remember those wives Stahma killed and framed their husband for so he got stretched to death (a painful and slow way to go)?  Really nothing can make up for those things but there is no question those things will continue to slide.  And I agree that killing Christie was actually the only play in that scenario so I don't even count that against Stahma.  At the same time I can see how it would be hard for Alak to forgive and forget.  It was pretty horrific.  And you know what?  While it was necessary, it really SHOULD bug Stahma, and Alak is within his rights to be upset.  And in my opinion a person with an average amount of empathy (something Stahma really really doesn't have) would not only feel bad about killing their daughter in law but would also not be angry at Alak for his anger.  Yes preserve your life.  You don't deserve to die for it.  BUT just take the weapon away from the grieving husband, don't beat him up and tell him he is a screw up. Stahma's actions again show Amanda is right...Stahma doesn't REALLY know what loving someone is and most of the time she isn't justified in her actions.  She is not a good person not even deep underneath.

 

"The biggest problem that I see with incest is the power differential.  But that differential will be there no matter which adult teaches children about sex."

 

But if what you mean by "teach children about sex" you mean HAVE SEX with them then I would argue it is always wrong.  I can see postulating that other forms of incest so long as the couple don't breed is just artificial rules that may not have validity IF the two involved don't have a power differential.  By that I mean I could see how a culture could accept sibling incest if the siblings were close in age.  (And I know the ancient Egyptian nobility did and the fictional Targaryans do, although in their cases there IS undesirable genetic consequences. Egyptian royalty had some serious medical issues and do you really think most of the Targaryans are crazy just out of sheer chance?)  However father /daughter or any parent/ child pairing is harmful because of the power differential as is adult pedaphile/non familial child. 

Edited July 15, 2015 by MDKNIGHT

[raven]

 

Remember those wives Stahma killed and framed their husband for so he got stretched to death (a painful and slow way to go)?  Really nothing can make up for those things but there is no question those things will continue to slide.  And I agree that killing Christie was actually the only play in that scenario so I don't even count that against Stahma.  At the same time I can see how it would be hard for Alak to forgive and forget.  I was pretty horrific.  And you know what?  While it was necessary it really SHOULD bug Stahma and Alak is within his rights to be upset.

This does bug me.  Datak has paid somewhat for his crimes with time in prison and then being thrown out of the house yet Stahma hasn't.  As a supposedly loving mother, she didn't need to take it as far as she did with Alak and she should have had SOME empathy for him.  By letting anger take over, I think she is more like Datak then she would like to admit.   It does make her unpredicatable at times, which makes her more interesting.  Datak's now imprisoned, I wonder how Stahma would fare there.

 

Regarding the Omec's relationship and power differential - I think it would depend on how the younger Omec was raised.  Was she brought up and educated, taught about how to survive, etc without those familial bonds?  The current power difference may be more supervisor/employee, based on experience and longevity, rather than suppression by someone in ulitmate authority.  That suppression of what's needed to grow into a healthy adult would happen if she was abused by the father figure as a child, but we have no evidence of that.  We see that clear familial relationship with Irisa/Nolan, the affection and occasionally respect (which I believe always exists, though not always apparent); we see deference from Irisa to Nolan based on his status as father/authority. It's not clear to me that the Omec's daughter deference is from this same line of thought/feeling.

 

It could be Omec children are brought up without those bonds of affection we expect with humans, and/or brought up in a true group tribal setting where genetics are in doubt, with the father/mother, etc terms being used generally.  As I said, we haven't seen that there was abuse of a child; someone unable to consent.  The power figure using his authority to coerce his "employee/co-worker" for lack of a better term, is still troubling though not quite so icky.  She doesn't appear to be coerced, but we don't know what her experiences were before waking up, what everyday Omec life is like, what other relationships she may have had, to really judge the situation yet.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I hate to be cynical, but there is a good chance that the folks on this and other boards have done more thinking about the possible structure, ramifications and meaning of Omec family/sexual bonds than the writers. 

 

It's probable that all this is just to set up potential conflicts and love/lust triangles (Daddy-Daughter-Stahma/Daddy-Stahma-Datak/Daddy-Daughter-Nolan etc.).

[xtwheeler]

I think Daddy/daughter Omec bugs even if he is not her biological father just the same way Woody Allen marrying Soon-Yi Previn. He wasn't her father, but in the family he was always her "father figure." We don't know yet if Omec children and fathers/father figures have a similar relationship. Anyway, it is interesting.

[MDKNIGHT]

"I hate to be cynical, but there is a good chance that the folks on this and other boards have done more thinking about the possible structure, ramifications and meaning of Omec family/sexual bonds than the writers."

 

That is certainly possible. And like I said the writers can manipulate the characters' realities any way they want.  However regarding coercion vs non-coercion as defining whether incest is OK or not, a lot of  human father's that sleep with their daughters don't use coercion or threat. They can also use seduction, bribery  and taking advantage of inexperience.  Unless you tell me Omec dad didn't raise her at all and only met her when she was full grown and then they started a sexual relationship which she chose above a sexual relationship with a peer, you are going to have an uphill climb telling me this situation is mentally healthy.  And they already ruined THAT possibility because Daughter Omec clearly said that when she was a CHILD he sat her on his knee and told her the truth that their planet was going to end.  So if/when other characters find out, I would NOT think they would be  off base or hypocritical or prejudiced if THEY think it is wrong too.  And I ask once more, do we even know for sure incest is normal in their culture?

[kieyra]

(Ugh, I hate to nitpick this but Woody Allen wasn't even Soon Yi's *adoptive* father, no.)

I agree that we are likely putting more thought into this than the writers. I kind of envision them flipping through battered old Heinlein paperbacks for inspiration.

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's move on please - we seem to be stuck in a rut here, and have strayed from conversation about the episode.

[jhlipton]

Moving the incest discussion to Small Talk.