S05.E10: Mother's Mercy

[Turtle]

Oh I must have forgotten when they said it five years ago.

And last season. And earlier this season.

I had a crazy thought that Cersei might actually be humbled by that walk of shame, but them I remembered who we're dealing with. I figure she was crying out of purely selfish and prideful reasons rather than any remorse and sister is going to go N-U-T-S next season. Someone like her, even when hurt and humiliated, or even especially when hurt or humiliated, is much more likely to lash out than anything else. And I'm kind of looking forward to it, just to see how much she ratchets it up!

I adore Tyrion and Varys together, and I find that really surprising because I did not care for either at the series start. It's a case of the sum being greater than its parts, I guess.

[Dobian]

He flew to a bone graveyard. I don't think he'll make it.

 

He just looked really tired to me, and hurt.  But I didn't get the sense that he was dying.

[rozen]

As for Myranda , what made her think she could talk to Sansa like that. No matter what Sansa is of noble blood and Myranda was the kennel masters daughter. As screwed up as Ramsey is, I don't see him taking too kindly to his side piece taking off a slice of his wife. He's legitimate now and while Myranda could mess with his other non noble side pieces I thought she over stepped her boundary there. Not that it matters. Agree with the poster who said Ramsey is going to tear up the North looking for Sansa.

 

Exactly. Myranda was on a one-way hunting trip once Ramsay got back. Did she really think Ramsay would tolerate anyone other than him putting the first arrow in Sansa's business? 

 

Oh, Ceresei's eyes when she finally made it back home. She is going to wreck the Faith Militant. Horrible, awful, things are going to happen to that nun. I don't think I'll even be sorry, she's a creepy, predatory, masochist. I see they've solved the problem of trying to cast someone big enough to play the Mountain and be able to act at the same time. Zombie Mountain! That armor didn't seem very conductive to getting blood and guts off it, seems strange considering the Mountain liked overhead impaling people one-handed and whatever. 

 

OMG, what if Melisandre was never Team Stannis? Maybe she latched on to him as a desperate schmuck to super-charge herself for her actual plan, fighting White Walkers? She's only performed one act of magic the entire show, the shadow-baby, and that was technically Stannis's own life-force, so required no sacrifice (presumably) on her part. With as many people as she's had sacrificed she should be overflowing with powaaaaaahhh. Very excited to see what she does on the wall next season.

 

Mostly so she can get front row seats to the entire Night's Watch getting destroyed by the White Walkers. Gormless shits couldn't even let him know it was a fight, because he'd probably have slaughtered over half of them with Longclaw before they took him down. "For the Watch" my ass. Go die so Tormund can come and start a Wildlings Night's Watch division, they'd at least take it seriously. 

 

Didn't most of Dany's people leave her once Drogo died? I somehow suspect that styling herself as Khaleesi is not going to win her any fans with the Dothraki she's just run in to. Why did they have her stand there like some terrified damsel? She took great pride in being part of the Dothraki until she upgraded to Team High White-I mean Valyerian. Should have showed her calling out to them, or giving a ceremonial greeting, something. But we've not seen her Dothraki entourage in ages anyway (where they were gleefully stealing gold spoons), so I guess that says what the showrunners think of them.

[Muffyn]

This. And Olly going all "For the Watch".  Now it might have been more powerful if he said "For my Parents".  Hell, I could have written better dialogue in my sleep!

When he said "For the Watch", I was thinking since when did that little whiner join the watch?  Has he taken the oath?  

[Andromeda]

And what evidence do we have Mel can bring people back?  The powers of Thoros and those of Melisandre as far as we know don't interlap.  And given the horrible costs her blood magic seems to enact even if she could it may not necessarily be a good thing.  Melisandre is the guy in the van promising you candy.  Stepping inside for a treat is never a good idea.

I agree -- if Mel gets her hands on Jon's body, who knows what might come out the other side. She's a lot like Qyburn that way, but instead of "science" she's using "magic."

[Andromeda]

Also, there was something about him keeping his hair long for other parts he "might get."  Riiiiiight.  He's gonna be back.

The EW interview with Kit has an editor's note adding that he subsequently cut his hair.

 

After reading Kit Harrington's comments in EW and Vulture, my belief that Jon Snow isn't really dead has taken a hit. Yeah, he could be lying but he's not being coy and deflecting questions. Dude flat out says he's done with the show. Sigh.

 

Now I'm starting to wonder if Melisandre's return to Castle Black was just a red herring. A lot of viewers are expecting Mel to resurrect Jon at some point, but the show has made it clear she does not have that power. Thoros of Myr does and he only stumbled upon it. Mel was genuinely surprised and freaked out when she learned how and how many times Beric had been brought back from the dead. She's in the business of sacrificing people and he's in the business of bringing a guy back to life.

 

So, why would Melisandre reverse course and want to resurrect Jon Snow? Why would she try magic she doesn't possess on a guy she's not invested in? Yeah, she tried to seduce him and has been giving him weird looks but I don't think it's because she suspects he may be The Prince that Was Promised. Maybe she's just attracted to the pretty crow. She looked defeated when she returned to CB; not like a priestess who realized she was backing the wrong guy and had to hightail it back to Jon and share her epiphany. Mel's probably sulking in her room while Jon is dying and alone. How will Mel know what's happened and what should be done? GRRM and the show pride themselves in subverting tropes, so I think they are setting me up for another gut punch in regards to Mel and Jon.

 

That's what I think, but I was never invested in the theories about Jon being the Chosen One. I don't think he's Frodo or Harry Potter or Neo -- he's just a guy trying to do his best. Fans filled in the rest -- they had plenty of time to do so, since the books are taking decades to be written. But no matter how much you love a theory or don't want a thing to be true, that doesn't mean it's not true. I learned that the hard way as a fan of The X-Files and Lost and a dozen other shows with disappointing plot trajectories or endings.

You are criticizing the genre of science fantasy, not Game of Thrones. In the science fantasy genre, there are no satisfying payoffs or story arcs until the end of the adventure. The transcendental science fantasy trilogy, Lord of the Rings is perfect example. The fellowship moves from encounter to encounter as they are on their separate arcs. It is only in the final book when the ring is destroyed that there is satisfying ending.

Just one word, fantasy. There's no science involved (not like science fiction.) Lord of the Rings is actually high fantasy -- the most traditional fantasy subgenre, and GoT is in that vein, but with an overlay of real-world politics and human behavior. Science fiction and fantasy are usually shelved in the same place in the bookstore, though. And yes, LOTR really dragged in the middle.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Andromeda

[Hecate7]

Olly and Thorne could get killed by some White Walkers/wights.

 

I keep thinking about why Thorne is so fucking petty, and I realized he didn't go on the expedition beyond The Wall a few seasons back. I know he's been beyond before, but he didn't battle the White Walkers at the Fist of the First Men, so maybe he doesn't (or want to) realize how imminent the threat is. One would think when Jon returned from Hardhome, he would have been like, "Brothers, you won't even believe the crazy shit we'll have to deal with sooner than later." We saw him telling Sam, but the entire Night's Watch should have been put on notice.

 

And I echo others who want to know just where in the hell is Ghost?

 

 

I do not want to know. Truly. They killed Jon Snow and he did nothing. Unless he's accompanying Sam and Gilly to Old Town, he's probably dead, because if I were Alliser Thorne and I was planning to kill Jon Snow, the first thing I'd do is get the wolf out of the way. Then again, they didn't show it, and so perhaps the very next shot we didn't see was Ghost taking the heads off Thorne and Olly. Still, how many watchmen can he fight off on his own? Will Edd help him?

 

Maybe he ran down to the Wildling camp to fetch Tormund? I suspect the wildlings would fight for Jon Snow at this point, and they do seriously outnumber the watchers on the wall.

[Freckledbruh]

I don't think Myrcella is going to die. Out of place, super clunky lines of dialogue make my spidey senses tingle and that line "You want a bad girl but you need a bad (nope not typing that word)" followed by a bite made absolutely no sense. At first, I thought she poisoned Bronn too but now I think that when she bit him, she slipped him the antidote. Guess we will see next season.

I am pretty meh on Jon Snow's death. Him not addressing that White Walker battle with his men and the Wildlings was a huge mistake. Just because you are elected leader doesn't mean you stop leading, especially when the men you are leading are disloyal, murderous cowards. If Mel resurrects him, that's fine I guess.

[Hecate7]

You know, for once I would be totally fine if Stannis, Myrcella, and Jon Snow all three were total red herrings and everyone sits back up.

Good point about Melisandre's complete incompetence. She probably can't resurrect anyone. If she's that great she should have been able to keep Jon Snow from getting killed in the first place.

[Dewey Decimate]

Those are pretty much my feelings.  I thought that season five was shaping up to be the best season of the series.  It finally looked like they were tying all the threads together.  Stannis was going to march on Winterfell with Jon Snow by his side, Sansa was going to slit Ramsay's throat in his sleep, Dany was going to get her dragons prepped for the flight across the Narrow Sea, and a major triumph awaited us in the season finale.  But all is in disarray once more, as the people we rooted for either fall, make terrible mistakes, or go on the run.  Season six will begin with everyone in scramble mode.  Next year we can look forward to Dany retaking Mereen from the Harpies with the Dothraki, so you can put her return to Westeros on the shelf until at least season seven.  Sansa will be on the run with Theon all season.  Arya will spend the season learning how to fight like a blind monk.  Jamie will return to King's Landing and spend most of the season taking out the Sparrows with Cersei while plotting revenge on the Martels.  The White Walkers like Dany's dragons are still out there and still coming, but you might as well hold an office pool to guess which year they'll finally arrive.  And basically no one will make any attempt on the Iron Throne because they will be too distracted by their own subplots to move forward on the main plot...if there is one anymore.  GoT is the General Hospital of medieval fantasy.

I think it's pretty common knowledge that there are expected to be seven seasons of GoT. All along I've expected that dragons would not arrive in Westeros and WW would not truly threaten to move south (and, oh yeah, take over the entire continent in which at least 80% of the show's main characters reside) until the final season. If either of these game-ending moves happened this season, of what would S6 and S7 consist? How to cook old turnips and dead horse meat with Hot Pie? Getting a TESOL certificate at Missandei's international school of languages? (Not that either one wouldn't have its own charm.)

 

And the High Sparrow needs a special fate, too, I still haven't forgiven him for murdering the beer.

LOL! Akin to high treason. And now that Winter Is Coming, so stupid to waste good edibles. Maybe he could have magically transformed it back into potable water.

[myname2use4now]

Inspiring compassion for an irredeemable *female* character through sexual humiliation is a familiar and overused trope, and lazy writing. And based on some comments saying how happy they were to see that uppity bitch Cersei finally get hers, the writers may have failed, because they inspired glee instead of compassion in some viewers.

 

A great show should be able to depict a horror without seeming to fetishize and glory in it. On GoT, the rape and torture porn and degradation of female characters seems to be for pure shock value. At this point, it would be more shocking *not* to see it. Here, I'd also include Trant's pedophilia/sadistic fetishes, which were established last episode but of course had to be shown again and in more detail on the finale.

 

Another example is how long and drawn out the scene was. They establish the point they're trying to make, and then keep on and on until it becomes completely gratuitous. Everyone's beloved Jon Snow got less screen time for his *death* than was spent on Cersei's walk!

 

As for the sexual habits of the show writers, maybe they just get a lot of "bad pussy." Sand Snakes

 

Loved your post, Timetoread. You're the real MVP!

Bingo. I think this is what has me unsure if I'll be back for next season. It's funny how so little was made of Trant's abuse of the little girls. Maybe we're all just desensitized to it at this point? But as I was watching the scene of the little girls being abused, all I could think was, "Do I really need to see this?" I'm beginning to think that the burning of Shireen was also the jumping of the shark (or is it dragon) for this show. I just think that I'm noticing more and more lazy writing and the use of filler that I'm not sure I think needs to enter my consciousness. At any rate, I don't think it's a good sign that rather than be excited for next season, I'm glad this season is over because I need a break from it.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Was she the one Cersei warned?  I really can't tell them apart in those habits.

Yes.

[Timetoread]

And last season. And earlier this season.

 

It was just a joke, but I'll be sure to be more literal in the future about the full names and titles of the secondary characters who bore me just slightly less than the primary players.  I'm sure there's a Wiki somewhere to consult - hang on... "Ser Gregor Clegane is the head of House Clegane, minor vassals of House Lannister. Ser Gregor is a notoriously fearsome warrior with a tendency toward extreme violence. Due to his freakishly huge size, he is called "The Mountain That Rides" or more so often simply "The Mountain"."  Yeah, him.  He's the one who killed that other guy.

 

I had a crazy thought that Cersei might actually be humbled by that walk of shame, but them I remembered who we're dealing with. I figure she was crying out of purely selfish and prideful reasons rather than any remorse

 

Aside from the fact that it is Cersei, who doesn't have a kind or humble bone in her body - and lets not forget the spawner of Joffrey, I couldn't imagine that corporal punishment would serve to bring remorse for the crime she is being punished for - sex outside of a loveless marriage.  Perhaps if she had real faith in that religion but not otherwise.  What MIGHT humble her is making her do some good for somebody other than herself.  Maybe in Season 17.

 

I think it's pretty common knowledge that there are expected to be seven seasons of GoT. All along I've expected that dragons would not arrive in Westeros and WW would not truly threaten to move south (and, oh yeah, take over the entire continent in which at least 80% of the show's main characters reside) until the final season. If either of these game-ending moves happened this season, of what would S6 and S7 consist? How to cook old turnips and dead horse meat with Hot Pie? Getting a TESOL certificate at Missandei's international school of languages? (Not that either one wouldn't have its own charm.)

 

I'm sorry but it is completely unacceptable for ANY form of entertainment to basically excuse itself from providing even minimal gratifcation to its viewers for SEVEN years.  Taking out the fact that HBO is a paid cable channel and this supposition wastes considerable real-world money, artistically that is nothing but hackery.  BTW I'd PREFER to watch hotpie cook than watch the 157,934th scene of Ramsay torturing somebody. 

Edited June 16, 2015 by Timetoread

[morgankobi]

The EW interview with Kit has an editor's note adding that he subsequently cut his hair.

Yeah, but editor's word choice is more than suspect, as it was just a trim. Kit was on Kimmel just the other day, hair intact.

 

What seems off to me is how Jon's death closes the story at the wall, just when things are getting dire (whoops) up there. Unless someone worth "following" shows up soon, I don't see that being a location on the show. And I'm pretty sure they're getting tired of random women showing up to take refuge there, so I'm not betting on Sansa's story migrating to the wall.

Edited June 16, 2015 by morgankobi

[Philbert]

 

I don't care how much it costs HBO (they owe it to me for canceling Rome), I want more dragons.

 

The irony here is the cost to HBO is what got Rome cancelled in the first place :)

[MrWhyt]

I'm sorry but it is completely unacceptable for ANY form of entertainment to basically excuse itself from providing even minimal gratifcation to its viewers for SEVEN years. 

 

Considering it's viewing numbers have steadily increased over the years I think it's safe to say it's providing more than minimal gratification to it's viewers. It's a long story, the books that it's based on aren't done yet.

[Calamity Jane]

Yes.

Then I think she should head for the hills, and fast.

[Dobian]

I think it's pretty common knowledge that there are expected to be seven seasons of GoT. All along I've expected that dragons would not arrive in Westeros and WW would not truly threaten to move south (and, oh yeah, take over the entire continent in which at least 80% of the show's main characters reside) until the final season. If either of these game-ending moves happened this season, of what would S6 and S7 consist? How to cook old turnips and dead horse meat with Hot Pie? Getting a TESOL certificate at Missandei's international school of languages? (Not that either one wouldn't have its own charm.)

 

 

 

Well, being that there are only ten episodes in a season and you have all these characters and separate story arcs, you can't very well start to finally pull things together at the start of season seven, there won't be enough time left.  These plots move at a glacial pace.  Now if they anticipate that it might go eight or nine seasons, that's a different story.  But if it's most certainly seven, then they really need to drive the main arc forward in season six.

 

 

 

 

I am pretty meh on Jon Snow's death. Him not addressing that White Walker battle with his men and the Wildlings was a huge mistake. Just because you are elected leader doesn't mean you stop leading, especially when the men you are leading are disloyal, murderous cowards. If Mel resurrects him, that's fine I guess.

 

But how come none of the men who came back were talking about it?  It would have been the talk of the camp.

 

Edited June 16, 2015 by Dobian

[JTMacc99]

I had a crazy thought that Cersei might actually be humbled by that walk of shame, but them I remembered who we're dealing with. I figure she was crying out of purely selfish and prideful reasons rather than any remorse and sister is going to go N-U-T-S next season. Someone like her, even when hurt and humiliated, or even especially when hurt or humiliated, is much more likely to lash out than anything else. And I'm kind of looking forward to it, just to see how much she ratchets it up!

Not to mention that her daughter was just murdered.  Cersei is going to go mad king on everybody, and it's going to be a hell of a thing.

[Potanical Pardon]

Haha, my gf has this Night's Watch shirt that she's wearing today and just realized it's not something she's proud of any more.

[LuciaMia]

 

I liked how they handled Stannis' downfall.

In that beginning scene, the bad surprises just kept on coming: troop's desertion, wife's suicide, Melisandre skipping. I kept thinking of a line from a Neil Simon play, "When you're going dowhill, it gets faster at the bottom."

Of all the people waiting to greet Cersei back into the palace; where the heck was Tomman? Is he still sulking in his room?

[Philbert]

 

In that beginning scene, the bad surprises just kept on coming: troop's desertion, wife's suicide, Melisandre skipping. I kept thinking of a line from a Neil Simon play, "When you're going dowhill, it gets faster at the bottom."

 

As much as I hated to see Stannis go, and in such a state of utter defeat, at least he retained his dignity and the core of his 'Stannisness' when Brienne executed him. The only thing I wished they'd done is when Brienne asked him if he had any last words, he should have corrected her use of the phrase "Renley the Rightful King" and said "He wasn't the rightful King. The Throne was mine by right!"....cause-Stannis. :)

[CalamityBoPeep]

Ok.  I'm having a hard time with this, but not because of who died.  For the past few seasons it's been harder and harder to watch this show and truthfully I became emotionally divested after last season, when the Mountain killed that dude from Dorne.  I was irate that they introduced a new character (taking time from the others that they've left hanging), gave him a personality, a backstory, an agenda, only to have him die at the hands of a bit player whose mother didn't even bother to give a real name. I even decided to stop watching it, but my cousin, who has read the books, told me to hang in because there was more coming from Dorne.  So I did.  And here we are...

 

I simply don't care what happens anymore.  I wasn't a huge Jon fan, so it isn't that.  I just feel like the showrunners don't have a story to tell although they clearly enjoy world building.  Nothing goes anywhere, they drag out the same crap for years until I forget who everybody is.  For instance, Jorah finds out in Season 5 that his father died in Season 1.  The White Walkers were introduced in Season 1, Episode 1 and we still don't know anything about them - what they are and why they want to take over things.  It took 5 seasons for Cersei to get some comeuppance but you could see in her eyes that we'll get a return to form starting next season.  For 5 years they have moved Sansa from frying pan to fire to bubbling oil to acid vat filled with man eating sharks.  Why?  So that she could jump off the roof with Theon.  I am SOOOOOOO tired of ubervillain Ramsay Bolton - so now he is some amazing soldier and tactician?  Where exactly did he learn those skills?  Hunting humans with his psychotic concubine, of course.  For 3 years we've seen Brienne blustering about avenging Renly only to find Stannis bleeding out next to a tree and "heroically" dispatching an already dying, suicidal man - anybody could have done that.  Also it didn't occur to her to sneak into the Castle while the all the males were distracted doing the war thing out back to save Sansa as she was SWORN (watch as my eyes roll out of my head and onto the floor) to do?  She's an idiot.  Speaking of Stannis, as I was, all of that bullcrap with war strategies, sex with witches, burning people alive, smoke babies, burning his own child, just to have him have his ass handed to him in five minutes flat?  And Dany doing the Westeros version of Groundhog's Day, living the same thing over and over and over.  And Jon, who bored me to tears for four straight seasons, teasing me with the fact that he might grow and evolve into a less boring, watchable (dare I say?) rootable man, who has learned from the mistakes of his father and brother and will be one of the last ones standing.  Nope, nevermind - he dies too.

 

I concluded last episode that there was no real point to the Game of Thrones, now I've concluded that there is no real point in watching Game of Thrones.  Nothing is ever resolved and there is never a satisfying payoff.  You can't root for any character because they are all expendable.  The show doesn't value it's players and most of all it doesn't value my time.  I, however, do.  I haven't decided definitively if I will be back for next season, but I have decided definitively that I am not looking forward to anymore seasons. If I watch, it will be out of curiosity about the welfare of the dragons and the direwolves, but I don't actually care what happens anymore, and I might not watch it real time and just catch up in spare moments.

 

My apologies if I have offended those who are in love with this show.

 

So much what I've been thinking.  Bravo on your entire post.

 

To make it worse... I don't even believe George RR Martin has a plan for how to get out of the quagmire.  (I haven't read the books, but from the snippets of interviews and background stuff, I gather that he has a tendency to write himself into a corner?  And take ages to figure out a way out of it?)  Anyway... I have no faith in the author, nor the show runners at this point.  I agree... they're world building, and forgetting to keep the story moving.  And if it takes the author 5 or more years to write the book that ends this, then basically we're left with the show runners doing the end (which may actually never happen in books, if the author just can't get himself there), and I have the feeling that any ending from the show runners, is going to come off as going through two more seasons of a whole lot of nothing, then hitting us with one big "Ta-Da! Epic CGI Scene! The End."  I just feel like it's going to be pretty unsatisfactory because they haven't really given us any reason to give a damn.

 

I kind of hate that I've lost faith in the show doing anything particularly interesting, but there I am.

[EngradyPind]

Maybe we are forgetting that history is filled with instances of people who could have made a difference had they lived.  John F Kennedy and Abraham Lincoln come to mind. In Westeros, there is Ned Stark and now Jon Stark the High Commander of the Nights Watch.  Selmy Barristan in Mereen.

[DarkRaichu]

The irony here is the cost to HBO is what got Rome cancelled in the first place :)

IIRC it was the cost to BBC that got it canceled since it was produced by both BBC and HBO.  Although it begged the question why HBO did not go solo for season 3 and beyond

[CletusMusashi]

I agree -- if Mel gets her hands on Jon's body, who knows what might come out the other side. She's a lot like Qyburn that way, but instead of "science" she's using "magic."

"The Adventures of FrankenBastard and Ghost!" I would watch the shit out of that. Assuming that's what actually happens. I doubt it though. They seem to be going out of their way to shock us. For no particular reason except to shock us. So they're probably going to leave Jon dead, just so we can watch Ghost swear vengeance... I'm sorry, that should be "rare rengeance!.." and team up with Melisandre in order to make a Shadow Puppy.

Edited June 16, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[Gummo]

Y'know, If I want unending chaos and random events occurring randomly, I'll watch the news.

 

If I'm going to invest time & emotion in a story, whether written or filmed, I want a beginning, middle and end; I want at least 1 character worth following; I want resolution. 

 

GoT is delivering none of these; it's not groundbreaking or rule-shattering; it's laziness.

 

And as for the 'killing off main characters' thing, that was really revolutionary ... when Hitchcock did it in 1960 in Psycho.

 

Hell, it was still revolutionary in '70, '71, when Marvel killed off Gwen Stacey, Spider-Man's true love.

 

Hell, it was still a shocker in the mid-70s when M*A*S*H killed off Col. Henry Blake.

 

It was still shocking in the late 70s when Marvel killed off Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.

 

But by the time DC killed Superman, the whole idea had become yet another pop culture cliche.

 

At this point, it's just -- again -- creative laziness on the part of Martin and his TV enablers" "We're incapable of generating any real interest or emotion in our viewers, so let's just kill everybody!" 

 

I mean, really, that's the best you can do?

[iMonrey]

 

Jon Snow will be revived. There is no doubt in my mind.

 

Can anyone think of an instance where an actor has claimed he's been let go from a show which turned out to be a bold-faced lie? I know there are actors who are written off then come back in later seasons but I can't remember an occasion where someone went around giving interviews saying "No, I won't be back next season" that just turned out to be an enormous ruse to throw the fans off.

[Lady S.]

To make it worse... I don't even believe George RR Martin has a plan for how to get out of the quagmire.  (I haven't read the books, but from the snippets of interviews and background stuff, I gather that he has a tendency to write himself into a corner?  And take ages to figure out a way out of it?)  Anyway... I have no faith in the author, nor the show runners at this point.  I agree... they're world building, and forgetting to keep the story moving.  And if it takes the author 5 or more years to write the book that ends this, then basically we're left with the show runners doing the end (which may actually never happen in books, if the author just can't get himself there), and I have the feeling that any ending from the show runners, is going to come off as going through two more seasons of a whole lot of nothing, then hitting us with one big "Ta-Da! Epic CGI Scene! The End."  I just feel like it's going to be pretty unsatisfactory because they haven't really given us any reason to give a damn.

 

Yeah, I'm not overly fond of Evil Santa, but I don't get the suggestion made back earlier in the thread that D&D should just forget about him and do whatever the hell they want. I don't see a reason to have more confidence in the guys behind Teenage Dornish Ninja Turtles and other such brilliance. Them having free rein with no direction would only make the show more like Lost or the latter seasons of True Blood.

 

As to why Kit would outright lie over and over about being out of a job instead of being coy, that's easy enough to square with the showrunners valuing shock value over hope. I find it much more suspect that he is this lighthearted about leaving the show through the violent death of a character he's inhabited for years now.

[catrox14]

David Nutter's interview with Variety said Kit was upset and sad at leaving.  So IMO if it's a ruse it's a humdinger.

[paigow]

When A Man becomes A Girl / Woman, is it 100% or Caitlyn Jenner?

[Philbert]

 

IIRC it was the cost to BBC that got it canceled since it was produced by both BBC and HBO.  Although it begged the question why HBO did not go solo for season 3 and beyond

 

IIRC, HBO ran the numbers and decided that they weren't going to bring enough new viewers to cover the costs per episode, which were massive at the time. I don't think that's Game of Thrones problem at the moment. As pissed off as everybody says they are, they keep watching and subscribing. HBO won't cancel the show before the showrunners are reading to close it down.

[DrSpaceman]

So much what I've been thinking.  Bravo on your entire post.

 

To make it worse... I don't even believe George RR Martin has a plan for how to get out of the quagmire.  (I haven't read the books, but from the snippets of interviews and background stuff, I gather that he has a tendency to write himself into a corner?  And take ages to figure out a way out of it?)  Anyway... I have no faith in the author, nor the show runners at this point.  I agree... they're world building, and forgetting to keep the story moving.  And if it takes the author 5 or more years to write the book that ends this, then basically we're left with the show runners doing the end (which may actually never happen in books, if the author just can't get himself there), and I have the feeling that any ending from the show runners, is going to come off as going through two more seasons of a whole lot of nothing, then hitting us with one big "Ta-Da! Epic CGI Scene! The End."  I just feel like it's going to be pretty unsatisfactory because they haven't really given us any reason to give a damn.

 

I kind of hate that I've lost faith in the show doing anything particularly interesting, but there I am.

 

 

I actually do think GRRM has a plan at least as far as how it all ends.  He may be working on how it gets to that point and filling in the details, but from the interviews I have read, he has a planned ending in mind.  I say this because he has admitted in interviews that there are many wild theories out there but at the same time admits a few people have actually put things together correctly in predicting how it is all coming together.  He hasn't said who is correct, just that some of the theories aren't so crazy, which means he has some ending in mind.

 

I go the impression with Lost the writers were just purposely being obtuse and confusing with no global vision.  I actually don't get that impression with GRRM and GOTs, I just think its all slow to come together and at times tedious in the pace.  It took a whole freakin' season basically to get to Dorne and have one person die, essentially.  You could sum it up in 5 minutes, but they spent a whole season on it.  The details are often extraneous and long winded and full of stories of "I recall when i was a child........" and they drone on for 5 minutes to show an example of something they could sum up in a few sentences.  That on top of the fact that there are so many characters and stories going on are what make it seem slow. 

 

Lost eventually pissed me off because it seemd they were being purposely obtuse and confusing because they felt it made a betters story, no other reason.  With GOTs its just many characters, not all of the interesting, and long winded explanations and scenes for everything.  Its all relevant, just not concise. 

 

This finale was decent, not the best but decent.  It seemed to have many more "cliff hanger" type season ending events that prior ones, though, that is for sure. 

[Hecate7]

I just watched the GOT Behind-the-Scenes video that shows up on my FB feed, and the producers said that was exactly why Dany dropped the ring: it was a breadcrumb.  And the riders were definitely Dothraki, and she didn't know if they knew her but that she definitely knew what they could do to her. Wake up already, Drogon!

 

No, I think at this point he'd best get in that nap, and I hope his powers of healing are miraculous so he can fly away again fast, if the Dothraki get it into their heads to try to kill him or Danaerys. He is licking his wounds but I don't think he's dead or dying. He's just very tired.

 

The "bone graveyard" he's lying in is one of his lairs. This is just where he likes to go to eat and sleep. He brought Danaerys to the place he thinks is safest, so he can sleep and recover. Most likely the Dothraki saw him in the sky and have come looking, probably because they're tired of him eating their horses. So for his sake I hope that mountain is one of those places a horse can't climb up to, because that is a LOT of Dothraki and in his weakened state he can't fight them off. He CAN fly away, I think, if they choose to try to attack him, but knowing him he won't want to leave Danaerys behind. 

 

Drogon's eyes are kind of scary sometimes, but he's become my favorite character. I notice that there is not one single human skeleton among his bones. Maybe he's outgrown them, or maybe, as I always assumed, they were never on his menu.

[morgankobi]

Drogon's eyes are kind of scary sometimes, but he's become my favorite character. I notice that there is not one single human skeleton among his bones. Maybe he's outgrown them, or maybe, as I always assumed, they were never on his menu.

I actually looked pretty closely once I figured where they were, and all the bones looked decidedly non-human. I was rather relieved (which seemed arbitrary and odd).

[Hecate7]

Lost eventually pissed me off because it seemd they were being purposely obtuse and confusing because they felt it made a betters story, no other reason.  With GOTs its just many characters, not all of the interesting, and long winded explanations and scenes for everything.  Its all relevant, just not concise. 

 

This finale was decent, not the best but decent.  It seemed to have many more "cliff hanger" type season ending events that prior ones, though, that is for sure. 

 

Lost started with a very good idea, and they were purposefully obscuring it. They got spooked when people figured out their idea and changed it, and that's where they got into trouble. They were so concerned about not being predictable that they ruined their story. GRRM has vowed not to make the same mistake, and has promised that even if everyone guesses it, he's not going to just change it to be unpredictable.

[CalamityBoPeep]

I actually do think GRRM has a plan at least as far as how it all ends.  He may be working on how it gets to that point and filling in the details, but from the interviews I have read, he has a planned ending in mind.  I say this because he has admitted in interviews that there are many wild theories out there but at the same time admits a few people have actually put things together correctly in predicting how it is all coming together.  He hasn't said who is correct, just that some of the theories aren't so crazy, which means he has some ending in mind.

 

Oh, I do too... think he has a plan, I mean.  I just don't actually believe he has it in him to get it done, in any reasonably timely way... if ever.  I think it'd be really hard to keep going with something like this when your entire ending has been spoiled by creators in another medium.  I mean, at that point, how much does inertia take over?  Why bother?  Especially when people will then likely be complaining about how far your final book strayed from the show, rather than the reverse.

 

Granted, as a non-book reader, I  know I must be missing a hell of a lot of interesting side stories (or, you know, long-winded and pointless side stories), so maybe all of the stuff not covered in the show will be enough to keep GRRM going (as well as his contractual publishing obligations).  But I have a hard time believing anyone is going to care much by the time the thing finally reaches publication stage, if it ever does. He's not getting any younger... 

 

But yeah, thankfully he has revealed the end game to the show runners.  I'm just not looking forward, with any faith, to their likely manner of executing it.

 

ETA:  I just realized that I said earlier that I don't have faith that he "has a plan to get out of the quagmire."  Guess I'm contradictory on that... I do believe he has a generalized goal.  I just think he gets bogged down in quicksand trying to get there, and loses sight of his "plan".  Maybe its like the difference between strategy and tactics.  You kind of need both to win the war.  I think he has a strategy, but his tactics kind of suck.

Edited June 16, 2015 by CalamityBoPeep

[Timetoread]

Maybe we are forgetting that history is filled with instances of people who could have made a difference had they lived.  John F Kennedy and Abraham Lincoln come to mind. In Westeros, there is Ned Stark and now Jon Stark the High Commander of the Nights Watch.  Selmy Barristan in Mereen.

 

Sorry to nitpick but JFK and AL had already made a difference, which is why we know who they are.  I agree, we do lament, however what more might have been done.  I think a more fitting comparison would be JFK Jr. with all that was expected of him.  As for JS, he would have never been much unless he shook the NW free.  Sadly they shook him free first.  Like the Starks before him and really all except for Bran, he wasn't that quick on the uptake.

 

I go the impression with Lost the writers were just purposely being obtuse and confusing with no global vision.  I actually don't get that impression with GRRM and GOTs, I just think its all slow to come together and at times tedious in the pace.  It took a whole freakin' season basically to get to Dorne and have one person die, essentially.  You could sum it up in 5 minutes, but they spent a whole season on it.  The details are often extraneous and long winded and full of stories of "I recall when i was a child........" and they drone on for 5 minutes to show an example of something they could sum up in a few sentences.  That on top of the fact that there are so many characters and stories going on are what make it seem slow. 

 

As a Whedonite from the beginning, I'm kind of used to losing a main character now and then.  But as a writer, I think it is a mistake to do it for shock.  It needs to mean something.  That can be done with extra scenes or extra words or just a moment of clarity.  I think Stannis' death would have been very poignant if it told a bigger story about the futility of the quest for power - as did an equally too long Lord of the Rings.  Jon's death would mean something if he had put something in motion that will bear fruit later.  I already wrote a path for Sansa that the writers didn't take (damn them all to hell!) - she could have been a contender had they shown her learning from her experience and, more importantly executing that knowledge.  Like how cool would it be to have Sansa be the one to bring down Littlefinger?  Arya's epic quest is annoying as hell.  It's not fun watching this girl kill and kill again.  I was hoping that the MFG would put out that hate in her heart so that one day she could love.  On and on, they built a world so building houses (stories) in that world shouldn't be so hard.  Also, if you are going to write Direwolves into your tale, you damn well better put them to good use.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Timetoread

[Ronin Jackson]

For the past few seasons it's been harder and harder to watch this show and truthfully I became emotionally divested after last season, when the Mountain killed that dude from Dorne.  I was irate that they introduced a new character (taking time from the others that they've left hanging), gave him a personality, a backstory, an agenda, only to have him die at the hands of a bit player whose mother didn't even bother to give a real name.

 

 

I had a similar reaction to Oberyn's death... I admit it was effectively manipulative, getting me invested in his character, feeling uplifted when he volunteered to be Tyrion's champion, setting up his triumph and then pulling the rug with a gut punch. But I wasn't that appreciative of it, simply because, the only narrative purpose seemed to be punching me in the gut. I started to watch the show with less investment from that moment on.

 

Ironically for a story that prides itself on unpredictability for the sake of unpredictability, some of the deaths in the finale were quite predictable. Princess Myrcella's death was almost cringeworthy the way she gave the whole "I accept you daddy" speech. And as soon as Jon Snow was being led away, I could smell the patented GOT "shock" coming. I started checking out immediately (that it followed the extremely unpleasant "walk of shame" scene certainly contributed).

[Timetoread]

I had a similar reaction to Oberyn's death... I admit it was effectively manipulative, getting me invested in his character, feeling uplifted when he volunteered to be Tyrion's champion, setting up his triumph and then pulling the rug with a gut punch. But I wasn't that appreciative of it, simply because, the only narrative purpose seemed to be punching me in the gut. I started to watch the show with less investment from that moment on.

 

Ironically for a story that prides itself on unpredictability for the sake of unpredictability, some of the deaths in the finale were quite predictable. Princess Myrcella's death was almost cringeworthy the way she gave the whole "I accept you daddy" speech. And as soon as Jon Snow was being led away, I could smell the patented GOT "shock" coming. I started checking out immediately (that it followed the extremely unpleasant "walk of shame" scene certainly contributed).

 

Seriously I called complete and utter BS on the Myrcella "I'm glad  you're my Daddy" speech.  Really?  You're glad your Mother was screwing her brother?  In that case just be glad you didn't get saddled with Joffrey.  And you do realize that you get to call yourself "Princess" not because your father was the Chief Guard (or whatever the hell Jaime's job title is) but because the man you called father was KING.  Never, not EVER would anybody disregard that very fact.  The real convo would have been "I have no idea what you are talking about, UNCLE Jaime.  The bestest UNCLE in the whole world who will be a grandUNCLE to the kids I'll soon have with my intended.  Yep, UNCLES are great!!!" 

Edited June 16, 2015 by Timetoread

[dramachick]

Seriously I called complete and utter BS on the Myrcella "I'm glad  you're my Daddy" speech.  Really?  You're glad your Mother was screwing her brother?  In that case just be glad you didn't get saddled with Joffrey.  And you do realize that you get to call yourself "Princess" not because your father was the Chief Guard (or whatever the hell Jaime's job title is) but because the man you called father was KING.  Never, not EVER would anybody disregard that very fact.  The real convo would have been "I have no idea what you are talking about, UNCLE Jaime.  The bestest UNCLE in the whole world who will be a grandUNCLE to the kids I'll soon have with my intended.  Yep, UNCLES are great!!!" 

LOL

 

After she said that, I couldn't feel sorry for her when she was dying and was thankful that line of inbred stupidity and selfishness was coming to an end.  

Edited June 16, 2015 by dramachick

[CatMack]

Can anyone think of an instance where an actor has claimed he's been let go from a show which turned out to be a bold-faced lie? I know there are actors who are written off then come back in later seasons but I can't remember an occasion where someone went around giving interviews saying "No, I won't be back next season" that just turned out to be an enormous ruse to throw the fans off.

 

Orphan Black and Revenge both did this within the last couple years.  Granted, both were in a different situation that GoT - on Orphan Black most of the main cast is played by the same actress, so it wasn't that she was leaving just that that particular character was absolutely 100% dead.  Revenge killed off a main character, had the actress do the "I'm really dead, it was time" interview circuit, and then revealed her alive in the next episode a week later.  So different circumstances, but yes, there is precedent for actors and showrunners outright lying through their teeth about a character being dead.  Heck, if we go back a few years there's Katee Sackhoff on Battlestar Galactica.  Her character died, she did the interview circuit, she even got cast on a new show as a series regular, before her character was magically resurrected as the cliffhanger of the season.  They were so committed to the lie on that show that they didn't even tell the other cast members, only the writers and Katee knew, but then Edward James Olmos got so pissed off about it he actually threatened the showrunner so they told him and gave him permission to tell a few other cast members as he saw fit to keep the peace.  

 

So no, I don't buy Jon Snow being dead.  All the other shocking deaths on the show, they weren't just shocking.  Ned's death, Robb's death, yeah, they were sad and sudden and served the "no one is safe!" agenda, but they did actually make narrative sense too.  Ned's death is what really started the war for the iron throne, even more than Robert's death did.  And Robb was participating in a conflict that can only have one winner, so him not being the winner was sad but still served to move the story forward as it narrowed down the war.  Jon's death being permanent does nothing to move the plot forward, while him dying and then being revived (now free of his Night's Watch vows, since they're only good until your death) opens up a lot of narrative options.  I will believe that Jon is dead for good when the show ends and he hasn't come back yet.  Until then, they can give interviews until the cows come home and I still won't believe them.  

Edited June 16, 2015 by CatMack

[Penman61]

LOL

 

After she said that, I couldn't feel sorry for her when she was dying and was thankful that line of inbred stupidity and selfishness was coming to an end.  

I assumed hemophilia also played a role in her demise.  That made me happy.

[RedheadZombie]

Unless I missed it, there's been little speculation as to the scrolls Jon was reading. They made a point of showing Sam and Jon discussing sending requests for men to all the great houses. I assumed those were Raven-mail responses, and by Jon's facial expression, they all refused.

[peggy06]

Oh, I do too... think he has a plan, I mean.  I just don't actually believe he has it in him to get it done, in any reasonably timely way... if ever.  I think it'd be really hard to keep going with something like this when your entire ending has been spoiled by creators in another medium.  I mean, at that point, how much does inertia take over?  Why bother?  Especially when people will then likely be complaining about how far your final book strayed from the show, rather than the reverse.

 

Granted, as a non-book reader, I  know I must be missing a hell of a lot of interesting side stories (or, you know, long-winded and pointless side stories), so maybe all of the stuff not covered in the show will be enough to keep GRRM going (as well as his contractual publishing obligations).  But I have a hard time believing anyone is going to care much by the time the thing finally reaches publication stage, if it ever does. He's not getting any younger... 

 

But yeah, thankfully he has revealed the end game to the show runners.  I'm just not looking forward, with any faith, to their likely manner of executing it.

Interesting point about GRRM's point of view on writing the rest of the story. The show has become such a phenomenon, and now has to invent its own plotlines while they wait for him. What a recipe for writer's block! It reminds me of Harry Potter in a way. By the time the last book came out, the original audience were grown-ups (or at least, college kids). J.K. Rowling also said she had the ending planned, but the second-last book was weak, and the final book not completely satisfactory. She, too, was under pressure, though she delivered the goods much quicker.

 

I am just finishing Book One of ASOIAF, and the most interesting part, to me, is the world building. (Maybe in part because the plot is something I already know.) I have much more appreciation for GRRM's creation, for the imagination that went into making these kingdoms and their history. (Hope this doesn't count as book-talk.) I would not want a TV show to drive the resolution of any major plots.

Edited June 17, 2015 by peggy06

[morgankobi]

OK, I don't know where to put this, but I laughed so damn hard at this comment on Reddit, and I know some of us need a laugh (caps retained for authenticity):

 

"JESUS FUCKING CHRIST JON, JUST GIVE THEM BACK THEIR WATCH!!"

 

This will be the one show I actually search out spoilers for for next season. Sigh.

[CletusMusashi]

On the one hand, I suppose I'd rather Jon lived.

He's boring, but at least he's one of the few characters actually accomplishing any good.

On the other hand, I'm afraid Firebush would need a sacrifice to save him, and it might be Ghost.

On the other other hand, it might be Olly, which would be great!

We'd never be clumsily directed to give a shit about that character ever again.

But on the other other other hand, if Jon gets another story arc with another redhead...

you do know what five words she's going to have to tell him, like five or six hundred times, don't you?

Edited June 20, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[morgankobi]

How many hands do you have, Cletus?

[CletusMusashi]

Boxes and boxes full. Also some dwarf heads. For my experiment.

[SimoneS]

Last week a few people were attempting to argue that Jon was a better leader than Dany. When one person said that Jon's mentors were Ned and Mormont, I responded that they were both dead because of their poor judgement. Now here is Jon, dead this week because of the same exact reason. At least, Dany is alive albeit separated from her people. I stand my position that they are both flawed and inexperienced leaders doing the best that they can in difficult situations.