S05.E10: Mother's Mercy

[LiveenLetLive]

 

but R+L=J was a big draw for me

Me too, deconstruction is one thing, but taking the most potentially satisfying fictional arc out of the narrative is a totally different kettle of fish--maybe ol George is just trolling us gullible readers?

[Shanna Marie]

There is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to main character deaths. After the first one or two, you get the "no one is safe!" thing that increases tension. After that, you start detaching and not daring to care about anyone, and from there it becomes easy to just walk away from the story.

 

If Jon is well and truly dead for good, then that's some awful writing because it's terribly anticlimactic. Why bother with the big showdown with the White Walker and the surprise of Jon being able to kill one, and then the staredown with the Night's King, as though he recognized something in Jon? Why bother with Mel giving him funny looks? And that's not even getting to all the foreshadowing this season about his parentage -- and that's all show stuff, not book stuff.

 

It's like an entire plot line would become, "Oh, never mind." Bad idea for a cliffhanger. If he is going to be revived, then they should have done it here instead of milking it because either it's not that big a surprise when he's revived or it's a dealbreaker that loses viewers.

[MissDMeaner]

Sigh. They are saying on ET Kit Harrington is definitely out and not filming.

 

Kit Harrington confirmed he's out tonight on twitter. RIP Jon Snow.

Edited June 15, 2015 by MissDMeaner

[elzin]

Kit Harrington confirmed he's out tonight on twitter. RIP Jon Snow.

Does he have a twitter account? I can't find one.

[Pete Martell]

Seriously, I want to hear from all the people who were stepping up and saying that storyline was good for Sansa's character. 

 

It's always either that or people saying the story was all about showcasing Theon and sacrificing Sansa's story for Theon's "redemption"...redemption that amounted to being a bit player and shoving D&D's vapid excuse for Ramsay smutfic to her death.

 

What a great way to show Theon's range that was.

[Alapaki]

I just want to say, how great was Stephen Dillane in this? I knew what was going to happen to him from the first few moments he was on screen, and I knew it from his eyes. "Do your duty" were perfect, if obvious, last words for the character. Although "a ruler who kills those who are devoted to him does not inspire devotion" would have been appropos as well. There was a lot of good stuff in this episode, but Dillane absolutely killed it.

Boy, they sure went to a lot of trouble to get Mel back to Castle Black. That seems to confirm a bit of book fan speculation...

 

 

I thought he was outstanding tonight.  That look of recognition when Brienne called him out on murdering Renly was phenomenal.  The realization that he killed not only his only child but his own brother for nothing, all revealed in a single look.

[SFoster21]

I knew Myrcella was a goner after that tender scene with Jaime.

[JennyMominFL]

I'm not sure why anyone is taking anything KH or production is saying as truth. They certainly aren't going to let KH admit he is coming back, and they won't either.  

Edited June 15, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[ebevan91]

Ugh I want to go into that Unsullied thread so badly. They're talking about buying the books just to burn them (I hope they're joking). Most of that shit didn't even happen in the books!

[nodorothyparker]

This episode sums up everything wrong with the show. They want the big moments from the books without building them up. Its become a checklist at this point without motivations for the characters.

 

 

Exactly.  I've almost always found the finale episodes of each season to be rather perfunctory in checking off certain plotpoints to set up the next season, but this one really did feel like someone was standing just off camera with a clipboard going "Walk of Shame?  Check.  Now get Jon's big Caesar moment."  They clearly knew what they wanted the ending points of each story to be but they spent precious little time building to most of them in a way that made any real sense.  

 

I mean, what the hell was Dorne?  Did they really waste an entire season and two of our regulars on the story of Ellaria poisoning Myrcella, something we could have been told happened offscreen to the very same effect?  We didn't learn anything new or get any new insight into Doran or his role in the game.  But hey, the stage is set for Jaime to waste yet another season kissing Cersei's ass to make up for all his shortcomings instead of realizing what a truly terrible person she is and moving beyond her.

 

The Wall/Jon story was mangled to the point that it seemed like the Watch guys decided to kill him because it was a random Thursday and they just hadn't thought to get around to it before now.  Dany continues to be every bit as dull as in the books but hey look, horse lords.  Anything to give her an excuse to spend another year or seven not going where she's supposedly so anxious to go.

 

I will give Stephen Dillane credit.  He was magnificently Shakespearean until the bitter end.  He wiped out his entire house and knew it had all been for nothing, which is exactly what he had to show for it when Brienne finally got to make good on her promise.

Edited June 15, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[kieyra]

I guess, but that's fucking stupid.  We all believe he is important, even the actor must know about the theories behind his character, and if he starts filming - we'll know.  So hey aren't doing themselves any good -they are just pissing off show and book fans alike.  We've been waiting years to learn how Jon lives and the truth of his parents and instead we get Jon is dead and Kit isn't coming back.

 

My live-in is unsullied and he's like "that's it, I'm done. This show sucks" after tonight's episode.  I said this would happen and these people are going to have to do some serious PR to change that attitude.

This right here. I never threaten to quit a show on forums, I don't think I've ever typed the words "I might be done". I just stop watching. See: Outlander.

Having said that: this is me, threatening to quit watching. We get it, you like subverting tropes and the natural flow of storytelling. You like breaking all the things. The problem is, this is rapidly ceasing to be entertainment.

I have no doubt people will continue to follow you down the nihilistic rabbit hole. I just won't be one of them.

And no, Dany and Tyrion are not enough.

[Pete Martell]

The worst part of Shireen’s death is probably that none of this was even about her. Her death was meaningless to the narrative.

 

Stannis didn’t die because of her. Stannis died because of Brienne’s love for Renly. Stannis didn’t lose the battle because of her death.

 

Melisandre was unfazed by the whole thing. No real doubt or fear over her plans and visions failing her. She just left and moved on.

 

Selyse was always a minor character, left in the “mother’s love” trope once and for all so that they could have an excuse to get rid of her.

 

The one character who got to have a genuine reaction or whose story might be affected by Shireen’s death is Davos...the only character in that group D&D ever really gave a damn about anyway.

 

It’s pretty sad to think that D&D were so desperate for shock value they had to burn a little girl alive, and then didn’t even bother to write one hint of aftermath. I’m not sure if anything could better epitomize their failings as showrunners.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Pete Martell

[nksarmi]

This shit with Kit saying he is out and Jon is dead pissing me off so fucking much.  Only an idiot would let him say that if it wasn't true. 

 

I was with this show all season, trying to find a way for Dorne to be interesting, but really? F-ing really?  You kill the princess while the prince of Dorne is on the same damn boat? WTF?  I could see them killing Tommen to crown Myrcella so that Trystane could be king.  I was all over Trystane equals Aegon. But this?  This!!???!

 

And why didn't the show Stannis' death blow? He better be dead - I don't want anymore of his plot.

 

And Theon and Sansa in the snow - hopefully they run into Brie and Pod and get the hell out town before Ramsey goes on a hunt.

 

Dany and Arya stuff doesn't bother me, but I find I no longer care about either of them.

 

And that walk with Cersei - WOW.  I have to say that with Myrcella's death and that walk, I might actually cheer her if she does burn KL to the ground.

[Avaleigh]

Hardhome actually would have worked for me as a finale in a way. 

 

I don't understand why Ellaria doesn't care what happens to Trystane. 

 

I wonder if Tommen will die of poisoning to make it three for three for the Lannister children. Cersei is totally going to unfairly blame Jaime. 

[elzin]

Hey, you know what would help when everyone appears to be dead and things going to shit?

A big helping of Frey pie.

 

However gross and over the top that was, it gave you the "The North Remembers" hope for real, not just some random person who dies two episodes later.

 

The Red Wedding was awful in the books, but then there was the Purple one not too longer, LSH. Just little things that keep you going instead of "man this is just all awful." But this season really has none of that. Hell, Davos didn't even meet anyone to tell him to go find Rickon, dammit.

[loki567]

It's always either that or people saying the story was all about showcasing Theon and sacrificing Sansa's story for Theon's "redemption"...redemption that amounted to being a bit player and shoving D&D's vapid excuse for Ramsay smutfic to her death.

 

What a great way to show Theon's range that was.

 

What's really sad is that considering the amount of screen time they've given to Theon to assure that Alfie Allen stuck around, they've absolutely bungled his plot. Like why in the world would he suddenly decide to snap out of the Reek persona? I think you're right. This isn't Theon's storyline, this isn't Sansa's storyline, this is Ramsay's storyline. The writers really seem to have a crush on the guy. They seem to use him to fulfill some dark fantasies. 

[Mya Stone]

Here's the link to the EW article:

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview

 

It sounds like Jon is well and truly dead.  I'm actually pretty damned surprised.  GRRM is one brutal fucker.

 

To me, this reads like Kit is having a go at everyone. "My god, I know...and I didn't even know who my parents were. God!" 

 

This, and his reaction to the guy performing an impersonation of the Sam Tarly line, "He always comes back" (complete with the guy triple winking to the camera) on Jimmy Kimmel Live are reason enough to still give me hope. 

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate not knowing? 

[Andromeda]

I have a hard time believing he's done. 

 

I don't buy it for a second.  They may do with Kit what they did with Issac and keep him off the field for a year, but I can't imagine they're taking him off the show for good.  As much as Martin likes playing with convention and subverting expectations I don't see how they could possibly not be an endgame in regards to Jon

Having him killed and stay dead IS subverting expectations. I hope he's dead dead. Or remains dead, since he appeared pretty dead to me with all that blood pouring out of him pooling on the snow. I loved Jon, but when you play the game of thrones (or Night's Watch commanding), you win, or you die. He doesn't get a pass from the harsh realities of consequences to his actions just because people wish it to be so. Not that I don't agree he was doing the right thing trying to help the Wildlings, but he was ignoring the context and the attitudes (and pain) of those he was commanding.  If heroes in this show can just have some magic thing happen and come back to life, why didn't that happen for Ned, or Rob, or Catelyn, or any of a dozen other characters? I sure hope Shireen isn't murdered in the book so Jon can live. That's all kinds of wrong -- even Jon wouldn't want that.

[MadMouse]

Stannis didn’t die because of her. Stannis died because of Brienne’s love for Renly. Stannis didn’t lose the battle because of her death.

 

Melisandre was unfazed by the whole thing. No real doubt or fear over her plans and visions failing her. She just left and moved on.

 

Until we see a body I don't know if Stannis is dead. If Mel burns him to bring Jon back it would be a fitting end to his character.  And I disagree about Mel, she looked completely defeated after hearing that half his men deserted. The same with her reaction when Davos confronts her about Shireen.

[InsertWordHere]

The books, as grim as they are, still have hope. The show does not.

 

Who knew Meereen would have the least depressing end in the show this season? At least I have hope that Tyrion and Varys will be entertaining. 

 

I guess I can hope that Sansa and Theon run into Brienne and Pod or some loyal Northerners. 

 

This, and his reaction to the guy performing an impersonation of the Sam Tarly line, "He always comes back" (complete with the guy triple winking to the camera) are reason enough to still give me hope.

That was a great reaction. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[jcin617]

Of course Jon's coming back; there's no point having Mel show up there otherwise.

I'm not entirely convinced Brienne killed Stannis either.

Edited June 15, 2015 by jcin617

[kieyra]

Hey, you know what would help when everyone appears to be dead and things going to shit?

A big helping of Frey pie.

 

However gross and over the top that was, it gave you the "The North Remembers" hope for real, not just some random person who dies two episodes later.

 

The Red Wedding was awful in the books, but then there was the Purple one not too longer, LSH. Just little things that keep you going instead of "man this is just all awful." But this season really has none of that. Hell, Davos didn't even meet anyone to tell him to go find Rickon, dammit.

Yes. There was no balance. God, I would have taken Margaery being freed. Or the stupid antics with the the candle in the window being timed in a way that worked out. Or Jamie turning the boat around and beheading Ellaria. You know, a win. Because even in all the depressing medieval history there is, sometimes the good guys DID get a win. There's about a zillion stories of Elizabeth I crushing it against stupid odds, and I bet an actual historical scholar could come up with a zillion more.

[Funzlerks]

Good Many-Faced God, how boring were Tyrion's scenes? Why does Grey Worm talk like "Me Tarzan, You Missandei?" Varys's speech to Tyrion kind of made me uncomfortable. It reaked of some racist, colonial garbage. At least it gave a somewhat reasonable explanation for Tyrion to stick around.

I think Drogon was just wiped out and more interested in nursing his wounds and generally healing before taking Dany anywhere. I expect next season's premiere will include a scene where he again senses she's in trouble and flies in to stand as her protector, at which point the Dothraki will stand down and maybe even agree to follow her since none of them can top being a dragonrider.

Yeah. One minute of peril and then somebody coming in to help her and everyone bowing at her feet sounds about right for Dany. Edited June 15, 2015 by Funzlerks

[Knuckles]

A minority opinion I guess, but I think Stannis might still be alive. His statement to Brienne..."do your duty" may have resonated with her and saved his life. Just my impression. I think if he were well and truly dead, they would not have cut away as Brie drew her sword. And somebody needs to be there to rescue the escapees Theon and Sansa...Brie and Pod are not enough. Stephen Dilllane has been amazing all season, tonight as well.

 

i knew Jon was going to be stabbed, and was quite relaxed until I read the posters above...I love Kit's portrayal of Jon, from sullen teenager on thru an adult Lord Commander. Whether he wargs into Ghost or is resurrected, I had assumed that KH would be Jon. That he might really be gone is a possibility I had never entertained. And I am not entertained.

 

Ramsay...you cockroach, so you never sent the Pink Letter...instead what, you hired all the deserters from Stannis' army? And if not where by the way, did they go...they were trapped between Castle Black and Winterfell...are there thousands of mercenaries just wandering in the snow? I hate when the show runners leave huge holes in the plot like this. 

[Ambrosefolly]

We lost so many contenders to the throne in this single episode! Stannis, Myrcella, JON SNOW!?!?

 

I never thought of Jon as a contender, even if the theories turned out to be true. I always figured he would stay in the North and let Dany rule all as Khal of khals.

Sansa really took control of her of own life this season, she opened a door. Empowerment!

However gross and over the top that was, it gave you the "The North Remembers" hope for real, not just some random person who dies two episodes later.

The whole Northern storyline has been a complete wash. I understand why Jaime's Riverrun storyline was traded for Dorne, with Edmure raping men on Outlander, but they should have tried to work in the Northern conspiracy and casted the Manderlys, show it isn't just Kings Landing that plays at politics.

[benteen]

Me too, deconstruction is one thing, but taking the most potentially satisfying fictional arc out of the narrative is a totally different kettle of fish--maybe ol George is just trolling us gullible readers?

 

This is what happens when an author sells his story before finishing it and allows the producers to jump ahead of him.  He might very well have destroyed his own series.

[Shanna Marie]

A friend of mine who's good friends with and has worked with GRRM on some projects related to the book series has been tweeting little reminders about things in the past of the series, including a photo from the first episode when Jon's holding Ghost and the clip of Beric being revived. I don't know if he has inside info for what will happen in the books or not. But I am choosing to take hope here that he knows at least something.

 

Not all trope subversion is a good thing. Tropes became tropes because they work. Surprise and subversion only work if they lead to something even more satisfying than what you were expecting. Yeah, "Ha, fooled you, everyone dies!" subverts the tropes, but it doesn't make for a very good story.

[hacman00]

I think I'm going to wait for either the books or show to answer the is he dead question.

There's a media thread.  Can we keep the EW article and spoilers confined there?

[Pete Martell]

The Wall/Jon story was mangled to the point that it seemed like the Watch guys decided to kill him because it was a random Thursday and they just hadn't thought to get around to before now.  

 

This is what I was talking about last week when I mentioned the lack of emotional weight in the storyline. It's easy to say, "Jon isn't a dramatic character," but even if he isn't, the stakes and the story should have been. Instead, it was just Cliffnotes - they created a story of an orphan who saw the people who slaughtered his family being treated as equals and friends by a man he admired. They threw the basic outline out there without ever bothering to bring heart or depth to the material. So a violent act of a child who had lost so much he could only make sure others felt the same loss instead came across as a bored brat who got his cell phone taken away.

 

It doesn't matter how many "shocking" events happen if there's zero effort made to present them as anything but stunts. They get people talking, like the Kardashians or a funny cat video gets them talking. And I guess that's all that matters.

[Umbelina]

Well, that was cheering. 

Cersei is a despicable person but those who inflicted this walk on her are filth. Those who spat on her and flung obsenities on her are filth. Those who enjoyed her degradation are also filth. 

 

<snip>

 

I am filth.  Apparently.

 

I wouldn't have been sad if they flayed her.  Cersei is horrible, and BFD, she was embarrassed for a couple of minutes.

[JennyMominFL]

This shit with Kit saying he is out and Jon is dead pissing me off so fucking much.  Only an idiot would let him say that if it wasn't true. 

 

 

 

No, that's exactly what they would require him to say. They certainly don't let the actors go around and spoil plotlines. If we are supposed to believe that a character is dead, then that is what the actor should be saying. 

[Avaleigh]

Septa Ratchet enjoys this shit way too much. I'm totally fine with Cersei burning the sept to the ground one day if that happens. 

 

I wonder why Lancel wasn't around as part of the escort?

 

I can't believe that the Tyrells are just being left to languish in prison. I thought Olenna would make an appearance and be a witness to Cersei's walk.

[nksarmi]

The books, as grim as they are, still have hope. The show does not.

 

Who knew Meereen would have the least depressing end in the show this season? At least I have hope that Tyrion and Varys will be entertaining. 

 

I guess I can hope that Sansa and Theon run into Brienne and Pod or some loyal Northerners. 

That was a great reaction. 

I was just saying that Tyrion and Varys are my favorite pairing but I have to say - it's still not enough for me without Jon and R+L=J.  I really just don't give a damn anymore.  Maybe I will feel differently in 10 months, but I doubt it. 

 

And at this point, I have expect Ramsey to have a good hunt with Sansa and Theon in 6:1 and I just can't take anymore.

 

We got no Jamie in the Riverlands, no warging Stark children, no Ghost of Winterfell and now Kit says Jon is dead.  I just don't care - fuck em all.  Let the White Walkers kill them all and Dany can burn what's left or stay at Meereen with Tyrion - I just don't care.

[JennyMominFL]

I am filth.  Apparently.

 

I wouldn't have been sad if they flayed her.  Cersei is horrible, and BFD, she was embarrassed for a couple of minutes.

What I don't like is the fact that she was being punished for being a "whore" and a Fornicator". She has done planty of evil things, but what she was being punished for, what was being hurled at her while she walked, were sexual sins .

Edited June 15, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[Mya Stone]

I think I'm going to wait for either the books or show to answer the is he dead question.

There's a media thread.  Can we keep the EW article and spoilers confined there?

 

None of the speculation are spoilers, and anything to do with whether Jon is alive or dead or only mostly dead are all part of the discussion of the aftermath of this episode. 

 

[WatchrTina]

My theory is that GRRM will surprise us with the next book before the next season of the show and that's how we'll find out what happens to Jon (I'm in the warg into Ghost for a while then return to his re-animated body courtesy of the Red Bitch camp myself.)  Once the book is released Kit will be able to stop lying about his ongoing involvement.

 

I also believe Syrio Forel is alive.  Sue me. I'm an optimist.

[nksarmi]

No, that's exactly what they would require him to say. They certainly don't let the actors go around and spoil plotlines. If we are supposed to believe that a character is dead, then that is what the actor should be saying. 

No, he should be playing it coy like GRRM has been for years.  Since the author has strung us along - go with it.  Don't take our hope away from us - that's how you make people walk away and not come back.

[MrWhyt]

No, that's exactly what they would require him to say. They certainly don't let the actors go around and spoil plotlines. If we are supposed to believe that a character is dead, then that is what the actor should be saying. 

and if he did tell the truth, then you'd have just as much outrage from the complainers in the audience.

[Umbelina]

What I don't like is the fact that she was being punished for being a "whore" and a Fornicator". She has done planty of evil things, but what she was being punished for, what was being hurled at her while she walked were sexual sins .

I don't care which of her crimes she is being punished for, at least she was finally punished, if you can call getting a bit dirty and having sore feet whilst being embarrassed "punished."  Talk to the Boltons about punishment!  Or Jon Snow, or Ned Stark, or her husband that she arranged to murder, or all of the children she is killing to keep any real Baratheons from the throne. 

 

Aside from that, she'd do the same thing to someone who served her coffee cold.

 

No pity here.  None.

 

I wonder if Kit really is gone, but the character wargs into someone else, not just the wolf, if indeed that does happen? 

 

I skimmed the unsullied, some pretty much assume Mel being there means he'll be saved.

 

Why did we have to have girls being beaten again?  To show that he was a "bad guy?"  Sorry, I don't buy it, it was just another disgusting violence scene for the hell of it (Arya could have had a flashback scene or something else.)  Other than that, I felt the Arya stuff was well done.  I was hoping that was one cliffhanger we wouldn't get (her blindness.)

 

Depressing show.

[Pete Martell]

 I can't believe that the Tyrells are just being left to languish in prison. I thought Olenna would make an appearance and be a witness to Cersei's walk.

 

She got to call Cersei a tart and had some other "hilarious" lines before fucking off yet again, so I guess the rest is immaterial.

 

I still have no idea if the show even wants us to care whether Loras or Margaery live or die, or whether we're even supposed to think they were wrongly imprisoned. 

 

I've rarely seen any fairly prominent character become as completely irrelevant as quickly as Margaery has in the last two seasons.

[JennyMominFL]

No, he should be playing it coy like GRRM has been for years.  Since the author has strung us along - go with it.  Don't take our hope away from us - that's how you make people walk away and not come back.

GRRM can say whatever he wants. He is the writer of the story, the creater of the characters. He can do what he wants with them and say what he wants.  KH is an actor under a contract. He cannot go out on a limb, play games ,and say whatever he wants. If he likes his career, he's does what he is told by the people in charge. GRRM IS the people in charge. He can string people along of he wants too. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[Pogojoco]

As far as I am concerned, despite EW articles and Harrington saying he's done, Jon Snow's fate is up in the air just like it is in the book. This isn't like Ned, whose death both made readers/watchers know that no one is safe and also set in motion a dozen other stories within the narrative. For major characters. 

 

Jon's death doesn't move the narrative forward in the same way. His story is not done. And they just set up that the big, ultimate battle is going to be in the North. I hate that Mel is going to bring him back, mostly because I hate her, but he's not dead. He might be in a coma and hang out with Bran the Tree and learn his parentage, but yeah. Him lying on the snow with blood pooling underneath him was beautiful, though.

 

"My Valyrian is a bit nostril." I also sort of think Messendai and Tyrion might be a thing. And I'm ok with that.  I like that Drogon ignored his mom and was difficult, just like any teenager. I thought the Dany bits in general were pretty good. 

 

And for whatever reason, I like Sansa and Theon as partners. They bungled the Winterfell story, but Alfie Allen was really good and I liked him with Sansa. I hate, however, that Ramsey freakin' Snow is the best military commander around. D & D are really in love with that character. 

 

DIE DORNE. Myrcella was such a non-character. Sand Snakes were boring and now, I guess, will have to deal with Franken-Gregor. 

 

ETA Ghost probably left with Sam....he has spent more time with Sam, after all. Because, whatever, show. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by Pogojoco

[nksarmi]

GRRM can say whatever he wants. He is the writer of the story, the creater of the characters. He can do what he wants with them and say what he wants.  KH is an actor under a contract. He cannot go out on a limb, play games ,and say whatever he wants. If he likes his career, he's does what he is told by the people in charge. GRRM IS the people in charge. He can string people along of he wants too. 

 

 

You are missing my point - I am not pissed at Kit.  I'm pissed at D&D.  I have defended them all season and I feel this is a foolish, foolish call.  They could have easily had him say "Jon is dead, but I've got a bit more filming in me - they have to do something with my body you know" and just smile.  That's how you do an interview without pissing off books fans who have been trying to figure out how Jon survives for years.

[Umbelina]

If they were going to use a body double for Cersei I wish to hell they hired someone who looked like she had given birth to 3 children and didn't hit the gym five times a week, in the book she was embarrassed at her sagging belly (etc) but this chick could pose in a swimsuit ad.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Umbelina

[Happy Harpy]

Every actor killed it. I can't say it enough, the cast is fabulous and raising the bar everytime.

 

I don't have the feeling that D&D hate Stannis. He was dignified all the time, whereas everything crumbled around him, took down two guys while wounded. Even Brienne seemed impressed at him not denying he killed Renly. I won't put it past her that she was unable to kill a defenseless man who didn't cower, in spite of her hatred. Cue to them getting Sansa and Theon back, and maybe Yara joining them, getting back to book point for at least three of those characters?

But oh, Brienne naming herself was magnificent and Stannis' doomed face said it all. G.Christie and S.Dillane impressed.

I wouldn't even be mad if he survived, on condition that he ends up taking the black or something like that...he lost everything, he knows he killed his daughter for nothing. I wouldn't be mad if he died either, though.

I'm not even happy that Selyse is dead. Shireen was the only one, imo, that she was in power to hurt so it's too late anyway.

 

Jaime having "the talk" with Myrcella was hilarious. It was like "sometimes, bees and flowers are related and hop, you were born". LOL. Bronn is alive, yeah!

I knew that Ellaria had changed her mind too fast.

 

I didn't know I'd ever cheer for Theon. But I did, oh yeah ! In an episode full of stellar performances, A.Allen was just shining. The moment when Theon and Sansa held hands before jumping was simply beautiful.

And yeah, Sansa opened a door with a corkscrew -who says it's the first time she tried to use it to open her door? She had it for weeks, probably (still the vague timeline). That's great, and I'm not ironic. Again, she doesn't have the resources of a Brienne, an Arya, and Olenna...and it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't matter what she did, what matters is that she did it. Sansa in KL would never have dared...actually, she never did. But here she was alone, with no one to rely on, in the most horrible situation she ever was and she took a chance, she was instrumental in her own escape if it succeeds so yes, as far as I'm concerned, it's empowerment. She's just a very young woman, who was blessed/cursed with extraordinary beauty, but is ordinary about everything else and only recently learned to use her brain. But now she's doing her best and for me, it's more than enough.

I'm afraid that people expecting a "legendary" Sansa might be as disappointed as those who waited for "legendary" Stannis (or as those of us, maybe, who expect Jon to survive? You never know). Personally, I like very much the Sansa I get this season, because she faces her destiny or her doom by herself.

 

So, Meryn Trant is "just" a pervert who likes beating little girls...which is exactly what his main characteristic has been on the show so far re: Sansa Stark. D&D are really damned if they do, damned if they don't. I'm glad I didn't jump the gun last week and blame them. Kudos to them for not going for pedophilia. For me, it wouldn't have been much of a stretch, but I feel this is completely in character with the corpse formerly known as Meryn Trant.

I didn't feel as satisfied by a death since Joffrey. Nope, it was even better.  Arya naming herself was magnificent.

My poor baby Arya...I felt like Dany did with Drogon, I guess, when she was skewering that bastard (note: she learned to take a blow, on top of it she was beaten by Meryn FuckingTrant, I don't want to hear that she was "spared" anymore, thank you).  So, the FM can even take the face of people who are alive (Chekov gun?).

Then my heart broke for her, she thinks that Not Jaqen is her friend...and I felt that for the first time she allowed herself to cry someone she lost.

I don't see how they're going for the blindness, unless they exploit the warging abilities. Maybe they didn't want it to expose it too fast and keep it for 6x01.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[J----av]

There is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to main character deaths. After the first one or two, you get the "no one is safe!" thing that increases tension. After that, you start detaching and not daring to care about anyone, and from there it becomes easy to just walk away from the story.

 

If Jon is well and truly dead for good, then that's some awful writing because it's terribly anticlimactic. Why bother with the big showdown with the White Walker and the surprise of Jon being able to kill one, and then the staredown with the Night's King, as though he recognized something in Jon? Why bother with Mel giving him funny looks? And that's not even getting to all the foreshadowing this season about his parentage -- and that's all show stuff, not book stuff.

 

It's like an entire plot line would become, "Oh, never mind." Bad idea for a cliffhanger. If he is going to be revived, then they should have done it here instead of milking it because either it's not that big a surprise when he's revived or it's a dealbreaker that loses viewers.

 I like that they didn't spoil what happens to Jon. GRRM wants to have TWOW out before season 6 so this gives him a chance to explain what happens to Jon without the show spoiling it. It would be a big middle finger to GRRM (more so then usual) to ruin what is probably the most anticipated thing in TWOW. ADWD didn't tell what will happen to Jon so i don't see why the show should before TWOW.

 

 Also that would be jamming way too much into an already crowded episode

[benteen]

I always pictured the "For the Watch" stabbing to be a bit more frantic.  But them lining up to stab him felt more like that scene from Airplane where the passengers line up to smack the hysterical woman on the flight.

[FemmyV]

"Mothers' Mercy" ...eeesh. Mom's a bitch.

 

Even in the book, I refused to believe Jon Snow is dead dead, and I still do. What's the point of subverting a trope before you've fully developed it? Snow is the embodiment of the Classic Lit Hero: there were mysterious circumstances surrounding his birth; he has a special sword; he's just getting started, and now, you're going to kill him? Before he got to go to the underworld? No. This is Jon Snow's entry to the underworld. That scene was intense! I wanted to FF but couldn't. Olly, we hardly knew ye.

 

oh - where's Ghost?

 

Interesting, the ideas about Stannis still alive, too. I wouldn't mind that. Dillane's great. I was hoping to hear him say, "oh, fuck ME ...." as Ramsey's army came on the scene, but one can't have everything.

 

Arya's kill creeped me out; I just thought she'd be cleaner about it, is all. I did expect A Girl to Go Blind, no surprise there.

 

Theon/ Sansa - probably wound up in a snowbank. Not sure I care who finds them right now.

 

Dorne - really? The best thing about this will be watching Cersei go nuts next season. Tristane better hide.

 

I was surprised it turned out to be Dothrakis, where D & D landed. Sure looked like Westeros.

 

Tyrion + Varys, ACT II - Yay! I wonder how long before Tyrion asks about the other dragons ..

 

Cersei's walk was the best scene of the night. I hate her, but damn, Cersei Lannister is one of the best-written and performed female characters of the last two decades.

[Andromeda]

You are missing my point - I am not pissed at Kit.  I'm pissed at D&D.  I have defended them all season and I feel this is a foolish, foolish call.  They could have easily had him say "Jon is dead, but I've got a bit more filming in me - they have to do something with my body you know" and just smile.  That's how you do an interview without pissing off books fans who have been trying to figure out how Jon survives for years.

How do book fans know Jon survives? There are theories about his parentage, but were they ever confirmed? 

[Knuckles]

So Jon is mostly dead, but not completely dead, or he is totally dead, and free of his NW vows, and all the conspirators gather to knife him, and where is Ghost? Drogon rescued Dany but Ghost has vanished, and even the smell of Jon's blood does not bring him out of hiding?  He was around to rescue Gilly...so he can't have wandered far.