S05.E09: The Dance Of Dragons

[Conan Troutman]

For some reason I always imagined that Selyse would marry Bran.

 

Poor Bran. First getting thrown out of a tower, then getting stuck in a tree only to end up with Stannis' sloppy seconds.

[Calamity Jane]

I feel cheated out of seeing Jon's reaction to Aemon's death. Sometimes the reactions of the living are more poignant than the deaths themselves.

For some reason I always imagined that Selyse would marry Bran.

Shireen, right?  

[terrymct]

For some reason I always imagined that Selyse would marry Bran.

 

"Are you trying to seduce me, Mrs Baratheon?"

[dinkysquid]

HBO? This time you have gone too far! This show has always insisted on pushing the envelope as far as sex, nudity,violence and very long, drawn out torture scenes, but THIS?!!!! BURNING A CHILD ALIVE?!!!!! TOO MUCH!! WAY TOO MUCH!!

 

This horrific scene was gut-wrenching, heartbreaking and for me, a definite shift in how I now look upon this show. The Red Wedding I could forgive, and that took a while, but I just cannot get those screams out of my mind. 

 

Was this in the book and if not, then why put it in the show? It was beyond repulsive. I felt that this season's rape of Sansa was bad enough but this has just shaken me to the core. I honestly don't know if I will watch the finale and continue to watch into the next season. 

 

To say that this was off-putting is an understatement.

[RedheadZombie]

You guys are killing.  Yes, I mean Bran and Shireen.  LOL.

[Hecate7]

 

Poor Bran. First getting thrown out of a tower, then getting stuck in a tree only to end up with Stannis' sloppy seconds.

 

Unless she means Shireen. Scary to think of Bran and Selyse. that's sort of a Robin and Lyssa relationship. Ew.

[HumblePi]

Well, I'm behind here because I just saw the episode that I missed Sunday. Just a few things made any impression on me. Mareen getting burned up, the little girl about to be raped and Daenerys taking off on the spiked back (doesn't that hurt?) of her favorite dragon leaving her bestest gal-pal Messandei left standing there with Tyrion and Jorah facing the spears of the Harpies. Oh yay for her but really what a friend is she?

 

All the stuff about Dorne just took up too much time for me, it felt pointless. One more episode left and I'm wondering how they're going to possibly wrap up this season and still make some sense. Sansa, Brienne, Ramsey, Theon, Cersei, Margary, Jamie, Arya, Jon Snow, Sam Tarly, Podrick, Loras, Lord Varys, Littlefinger, Bronn, Look at that list!!  I can't even imagine how they're going to finish this up without leaving us all clueless as to what happens to any of those that we don't ever see again.

[Hecate7]

HBO? This time you have gone too far! This show has always insisted on pushing the envelope as far as sex, nudity,violence and very long, drawn out torture scenes, but THIS?!!!! BURNING A CHILD ALIVE?!!!!! TOO MUCH!! WAY TOO MUCH!!

 

This horrific scene was gut-wrenching, heartbreaking and for me, a definite shift in how I now look upon this show. The Red Wedding I could forgive, and that took a while, but I just cannot get those screams out of my mind. 

 

Was this in the book and if not, then why put it in the show? It was beyond repulsive. I felt that this season's rape of Sansa was bad enough but this has just shaken me to the core. I honestly don't know if I will watch the finale and continue to watch into the next season. 

 

To say that this was off-putting is an understatement.

 

Apparently this is coming up in the books, we just haven't gotten there yet. Yes, it's off-putting, but it's been forshadowed ever since Shireen first appeared on the show. What did we all think was going to happen? On the one hand we have a religious fanatic who was enraptured while her brother burned. Then we have the fanatic who burned him, who has wanted royal blood for some more spells for about three seasons now. Finally, here's a princess right under our noses, that no one has ever even inquired about marrying because of her face. She's too young to marry off and possibly no one's going to live long enough for that anyway.  Did we really expect Shireen would survive? That's like having your hamster run around loose without a ball, and expecting that the dog and cat won't eat it. Adorable girl was doomed from the start.

[Knuckles]

Yes, Mel burned Shireen alive. She also burned Mance, and many more on the beach at Dragonstone. Theon killed the miller's young boys and hung their small bodies, dipped in tar, from the walls of Winterfell. Cerise had Slynt murder Robert's bastards, including an infant.  Bran was tossed out a window when very small, with the intention of killing him.  The wise masters of Meereen had slave children nailed to crosses on the road to the city. Talisa, visibly pregnant, was stabbed in her belly at the Red Wedding.

Burning Shireen was dreadful, but hardly the worst that has been shown. The difference seems to be that viewers had a chance to watch her interact with other characters, and like her as an individual. I like to remember that the Mountain and crew have been rampaging, in the King's name, village after village, raping, torturing and murdering as is their want, with plenty of unseen victims, including infants and children. 

Shireen's death is shocking not just because her father ordered it, but because she is not a nameless victim.

[One Tough Cookie]

"Are you trying to seduce me, Mrs Baratheon?"

 

 

Stop. {evening cocktail--meet screen}.  Seriously. I'm gonna wet myself!

[Ambrosefolly]

I know that Dorne seems tiring, but can Doran when the game of thrones? He seems to be the only one that understands that his desire for revenge comes after the needs of his people, but doesn't come across weak and he seems far wiser than Dany (which is understandable since he is much older).

Poor Bran. First getting thrown out of a tower, then getting stuck in a tree only to end up with Stannis' sloppy seconds.

I was hoping for a Shireen and Bran marriage in the future (there is some fan fic, that features Rickon/Shireen because of Meera/Bran), and agree with however said they would make a great couple. Thats been dashed.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Ambrosefolly

[NoWillToResist]

Yes, Mel burned Shireen alive. She also burned Mance, and many more on the beach at Dragonstone. Theon killed the miller's young boys and hung their small bodies, dipped in tar, from the walls of Winterfell. Cerise had Slynt murder Robert's bastards, including an infant.  Bran was tossed out a window when very small, with the intention of killing him.  The wise masters of Meereen had slave children nailed to crosses on the road to the city. Talisa, visibly pregnant, was stabbed in her belly at the Red Wedding.

Burning Shireen was dreadful, but hardly the worst that has been shown. The difference seems to be that viewers had a chance to watch her interact with other characters, and like her as an individual. I like to remember that the Mountain and crew have been rampaging, in the King's name, village after village, raping, torturing and murdering as is their want, with plenty of unseen victims, including infants and children. 

Shireen's death is shocking not just because her father ordered it, but because she is not a nameless victim.

 

Actually, for me the main difference with this murder is that it's a father murdering his own child and in such a terrible, painful way (not even a quick death). Sure it's upsetting to see innocents murdered but usually the victims are strangers to their violators, so there isn't really a sense of betrayal to add insult to injury. But in this case, it's a loved daughter who was burned alive by her father and that just upsets me on a whole other level. Had it happened off-screen, I think it would have had less of a punch, but seeing this girl led to a pyre, and then crying out to her parents who are supposed to be the ones to protect her, and then her screams...ugh. I didn't have to know Shireen to be gutted by the manner in which she was killed and how it was filmed...

Edited June 12, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Elkins]

Good God. That was horrible to watch, and I'm not even a parent. I imagine that many parents of young daughters found themselves leaving the room, or at the very least diving for the mute button.
 

I could see this too, but to me, none of it was ever suggested onscreen. I saw a woman who resented her daughter and fervently believed in Melisandre's views, even at the death of her own brother.

 
I thought it was suggested onscreen that Selyse was both aware of and terrified by the possibility that Shireen would wind up sacrificed. I even posted about it on the speculation thread, a while back.
 
Sylese was consistently shown to be extremely anxious about the safety of her daughter. It was written on her face, all season long. Every time Melisandre would mention Shireen having a "destiny," Selyse would look absolutely terrified. She was the one who didn't want to bring her daughter up north. She was the one who told Shireen: "You have no idea what people will do. All your books, and you still don't know." I thought it was very nicely foreshadowed that even though she was the nutty fanatical one, she was also the one who was not, in her heart of hearts, at all okay with filicide -- and who was, in fact, already terrified that things were heading in just that direction.
 
 

Still, I'm Team Dragons.

 

Naw, Team Ice Zombies!

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

 
Cool story, Frost bro, but personally, I hold with those who favor ice. I'm not a terribly passionate person, really -- desire, to my mind, is often overrated -- and I've always loved the cold. Give me numbness over pain, any old day. At least the White Walkers don't seem interested in torturing people to death, unlike some ostensible protagonists we could mention.
 

When Jorah was flat on his back and at the second fighter's mercy, the third fighter choose to stab the second fighter in the back rather than wait until after the second fighter killed Jorah.  I'm not sure why the third fighter would have done that unless he figured Jorah was essentially done anyway and better to take out the bigger threat immediately, or least while the bigger threat wasn't moving, as the second fighter would be if he had stabbed Jorah.

 
Jorah had taken a number of hits already, hadn't he? Probably Fighter #2 thought it was better strategy. Also, though, I thought he was playing to the crowd. That fighter seemed to be a big crowd favorite, so I'm guessing that he was accustomed to fighting with an eye on the stands. "Triumphant Warrior Stabbed in the Back Right Before Completing a Coup de Grace" is a lot more exciting, from a spectator's point of view, than "Guy Towering Over Fallen Fighter Kills Him. Because of Course He Does. Duh."
 
Were you not entertained?

 

"Cockles, clams and oysters" will never not sound completely filthy to me.

 
You and random wolf-whisting guys on the streets of Braavos!
 
Speaking of which, I really liked Maisie's performance there. It's such a weird fucked-up rite of passage, the first time some rando on the street wolf-whistles or makes a perverted comment at you. It's the "Girl, You Are A Woman Now" moment that nobody ever wants to talk about, because there's really no way to spin it as something inspirational or positive, rather than something that just sorta sucks. That combination of surprised and grossed-out on Arya's face is exactly how I remember feeling at that age. Fuck puberty, man. What a miserable couple of years that was.
 
Of course, it was primarily there in the script to lead both Arya and the audience to the realization that she's now just old enough to have what it takes to appeal to scum like Meryn Trant, but it was still a cool little character moment.

 

Re: justice for bad people I'll probably say something a bit unpopular, but I disagree that in GoT there is any, or that there is no guarantee that they'll face consequences for their horrible actions. I'd say there is no guarantee that the victim of a certain atrocity directly gets an actual revenge, but it doesn't mean that the culprit won't have what he/she deserves, which in my opinion is quite realistic.

Shades of Stoppard, right?

 

"The bad end unhappily, the good end unluckily. That is what tragedy means."

[Ambrosefolly]

.

As much as I miss Tywin as a character, he met an end he totally deserved (granted, this time around Tyrion directly carried out his revenge, but to be fair he never looked very happy afterwards).

 

We saw Tywin and Walder Frey not take the guest right seriously and kill guests under Frey's roof, and scenes with them reveling in it, with Tywin melting down Ice and Frey mocking Robb, not to mention the glee of Cersei and Joffrey. Instead of Tywin possibly dying with some honor squaring of against Robb, he dies on the toilet, killed by his hated son. Joffrey was poisoned and died a incredibly painful death while Cersei couldn't do a thing to stop it and now she is being imprisoned by the High Septon, which makes me think that the Guest Right is a real thing.

 

Janos Slynt is pretty much delivered to the Night's Watch and was personally executed by the son of the man he betrayed and as other noted on youtube, Jaime was turned into a cripple after he threw Bran from a window.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Ambrosefolly

[Last Time Lord]

I had a thought.

Do we know for a fact that it was Ramsey and his men that set the fire on Stannis' camp, and not Melisandre setting it to force Stannis' hand in letting her sacrifice Shireen?

[paigow]

I had a thought.

Do we know for a fact that it was Ramsey and his men that set the fire on Stannis' camp, and not Melisandre setting it to force Stannis' hand in letting her sacrifice Shireen?

We heard Ramsey say he needed 20 men in Ep 8. We heard Davos report that 20 men breached the camp perimeter in Ep 9. Corroboration by a non-accomplice is good enough for the truth. [Applying Law & Order standards of evidence]

[Drogo]

On a totally different note:  Is it weird that I really wanted Ellaria to make a man out of Jaime Lannister in his prison penthouse?  

 

Those are some good looking characters and it's about time ol' boy got it from someone other than his sister.  

[Pete Martell]

On a totally different note:  Is it weird that I really wanted Ellaria to make a man out of Jaime Lannister in his prison penthouse?  

 

Those are some good looking characters and it's about time ol' boy got it from someone other than his sister.  

 

Other than a few moments here and there, like the bath scene with Brienne, I've always found Jaime somewhat lacking in any sexuality whatsoever. NCW is very handsome but there's nothing inside the character, especially in the last two seasons. 

I thought it was suggested onscreen that Selyse was both aware of and terrified by the possibility that Shireen would wind up sacrificed. I even posted about it on the speculation thread, a while back.

 

I never got that vibe in seasons 3 or 4. I will admit this season has been so terrible to me that I've largely checked out of heavy speculation, so I may have missed something.

[AnnaMayWong]

You know, Drogon flying in to save Dany, incinerating the Harpies and then Dany flying off on his back would have been totally badass, if they just hadn't burned a ten-year old girl at the fucking stake. That's it, I'm totally rooting for the Boltons now.

I agree, fully. That scene with Dani was worthy of a theatrical release . The timing, movement, coolness--it was a FU moment of greatness even though I do not care for Dani. I find her quite boring BUT THAT SCENE...

However, the pitiable scene with Stannis' daughter diminished the WOW factor. Let the flaying of Stannis commence!

Edited June 14, 2015 by BookElitist

[AnnaMayWong]

That was really disturbing with Shireen.

Didn't Jorah start that fight by killing a harpy or did I miss something?

I didn't like that Drogon was getting hurt by those arrows. Seemed like only a few more would've killed him.

It's always great when Dany connects with her power by connecting with her dragons. Those are the scenes that give me chills.

It's scary when people are rooting for the Bolton's. I still want Stannis to win for Sansa's sake.

Please let something good happen to a good character.

It is terribly sad about Sansa. However, if she had kept her mouth shut and not blabbed to Cersei, MOST of the familial horrors probably would not have occurred.

[LuciaMia]

 

dragon leaving her bestest gal-pal Messandei left standing there with Tyrion and Jorah facing the spears of the Harpies

If Drogon stayed in that arena, he almost certainly would have been killed. I think Dany was more concerned with getting him out of there than just saving her own skin. And once she was gone, a lot of the threat would be gone. True, the Sons of Harpy were mowing down a lot of their fellow citizens, but Dany was the main target.

[Constantinople]

It is terribly sad about Sansa. However, if she had kept her mouth shut and not blabbed to Cersei, MOST of the familial horrors probably would not have occurred.

 

This is the no book talk thread.

 

TV Sansa never blabbed to TV Cersei

[AnnaMayWong]

Oh, snap! I'm sorry!

[terrymct]

Sansa did inadvertently blab to Cersei a bit. Remember when Cersei was chatting with her and being very friendly and Sansa was happy her future mother-in-law was being nice and she dropped some information I think about her father.

[Ambrosefolly]

Which is perfectly normal thing and she was basically a country girl, not some worldly woman. How the fuck was she to know that  Cersei was just that evil, or that Joffrey didn't have show!Gendry's personality. Neither one of them are that smart, but they are very good putting on a facade (or in Joffrey's case, good when he was only a prince and encouraged by his mother). She wanted to stay with her one true love, Joffrey, same as Myracella wants to with Tyrsten. How fucking stupid are middle schoolers (my sister who teaches them thinks they are the worst) which was the stage Sansa was in? Damn stupid, but we don't have to carry much of our mistakes with us because the USA is much kinder with some sort of rule of law. Sansa doesn't live in that world.

[Calamity Jane]

Which is perfectly normal thing and she was basically a country girl, not some worldly woman. How the fuck was she to know that  Cersei was just that evil, or that Joffrey didn't have show!Gendry's personality. Neither one of them are that smart, but they are very good putting on a facade (or in Joffrey's case, good when he was only a prince and encouraged by his mother). She wanted to stay with her one true love, Joffrey, same as Myracella wants to with Tyrsten. How fucking stupid are middle schoolers (my sister who teaches them thinks they are the worst) which was the stage Sansa was in? Damn stupid, but we don't have to carry much of our mistakes with us because the USA is much kinder with some sort of rule of law. Sansa doesn't live in that world.

Just as an aside, my daughter the child therapist told me to think of my 7th and 8th graders as toddlers and I would understand them much better.  She was soooo right!  Brains are apparently in similar phases.  I never really loved the 8th grade, but thinking of all those neurons being pruned helped. 

[Constantinople]

Sansa did inadvertently blab to Cersei a bit. Remember when Cersei was chatting with her and being very friendly and Sansa was happy her future mother-in-law was being nice and she dropped some information I think about her father.

Sansa didn't have any scenes with Cersei in King's Landing until after Ned was arrested.

[bookrat]

Is it possible that someone infected with greyscale might not burn or be killed by fire?

[Hecate7]

Is it possible that someone infected with greyscale might not burn or be killed by fire?

Who know? I think it's very unlikely, though, because we heard the screaming, and we heard it stop.

 

It was Shireen's silence, to me, that was the most chilling thing--the way her shrieks went up an octave and then stopped, and then she was silent.

[Calamity Jane]

Who know? I think it's very unlikely, though, because we heard the screaming, and we heard it stop.

 

It was Shireen's silence, to me, that was the most chilling thing--the way her shrieks went up an octave and then stopped, and then she was silent.

Yes, that was the chill-down-the-spine moment of that scene. 

[DollEyes]

  Delurking with more contempt for Stannis. Disgusting is the kindest word I've got for him. He not only killed Shireen- his own daughter- in cold blood, he did it for the wrong reasons. I don't just want him to suffer for what he's done-I want him to bleed, burn and/or die, whichever comes first. Just like with Joffrey, whatever suffering that Stannis gets, he'll richly deserve. If Joffrey could finally get his for killing Ned Stark back in S1, among numerous other crimes afterwards, then I think that karma can/should make a Happy meal out of Stannis' worthless ass way sooner than later.

Edited June 14, 2015 by DollEyes

[CletusMusashi]

Random final thoughts before the finale.

 

The Harpies' name kind of sucks. Harpies were filthy scavengers who tormented Odysseus by stealing some of his food and soiling the rest of it. Sons of the "Insert Name of Impressive Predatory Warrior-Beast Here" would make more sense, because I don't believe they think of themselves as bad guys. Not sure, though, how many animals are left over that somebody in Westeros doesn't have a copyright on. They might have been left with a choice of harpy, inchworm, or capybara. 

 

Why was Ser Jorah allowed to wear plate armor in the gladiator match? That seems kind of unfair. 

 

Will Drogon fly back to Bedrock with Dany? If she shows up riding on a dragon, will the Stone Men worship her as a goddess? Or will they just try to sacrifice her to a giant gorilla?

 

And speaking of which, where the hell is FrankenMountain? Somewhere in a tree, Bran Stark is sitting around saying "Wow. That guy's story moves slow."

Edited June 14, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[MrWhyt]

The Harpies' name kind of sucks. Harpies were filthy scavengers who tormented Odysseus by stealing some of his food and soiling the rest of it. Sons of the "Insert Name of Impressive Predatory Warrior-Beast Here" would make more sense, because I don't believe they think of themselves as bad guys. Not sure how any animals are left over though that somebody in Westeros doesn't have a copyright on. They might have been left with a choice of harpy, inchworm, or capybara. 

1. Pretty sure they don't have Odysseus in Essos so maybe they don't have that view of the harpy.

2. We can see in the credits the harpy is the symbol of Mereen, they're not choosing some random creature, they're going with one that has a long association with their culture.

[CletusMusashi]

That helps. I don't have HBO, so the versions of the show I see are not exactly high-definition. I miss a lot of details in the opening credits. Just out of curiosity, I would still like them to give us some inkling of what a harpy is in their world, though. Maybe we'll eventually see a swarm of them attack somebody.  I'd be happy to point them at a few targets.

Edited June 14, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[Greta]

If someone wants to write a fanfiction in which the Daughters of the Inchworm become a new force to be reckoned with, it would be a nice summer read:)

[Unknown poster]

I assume the pit fighters can wear whatever they want, or is available. The Merrenese fighter had more armor on than Jorah, after all. I assume most of the others, (the Summer Islander, Dothraki, bravossi, and whatever the dirty hippy looking guy was) passed on wearing heavy armor, because they weren't used to fighting in it.

[Elkins]

Aw, that's really too bad, Cletus. I love the clockwork map of the opening credits. In fact, I think this is the only show I've ever followed where I don't start fast-forwarding through the opening credits after a while. I still watch them each and every time. As a kid, I desperately wanted an electric train set; I suspect the little clockwork model appeals to the same part of my brain.

 

Anyway, the model of Meereen in the credits still features the giant golden harpy perched on the top of the main pyramid -- even though we saw them tear it down, in that "this sequence draws on no contemporary iconography at all, nope, it doesn't, not at all, we promise, really" scene in the first episode this season.  When Winterfell got sacked, its little model started smoking to reflect that fact, and then it changed once again after the Boltons had moved in and repaired the damage. But that harpy's still perched up there on the top of Meereen's pyramid. It's probably just a budgeting issue, but it's hard for me not to read it as significant even so.  It's like a constant reminder that there are still a whole lot of hearts and minds that have not been won in that city.

 

[Unknown poster]

The Harpy was also present in Astapor, and I believe Yunkai. It's clearly a major icon in Slavers Bay.

[Macbeth]

Yes, it's off-putting, but it's been forshadowed ever since Shireen first appeared on the show. What did we all think was going to happen?

 

Given that leeched blood from Gendry killed at least 2 contenders for the throne, I was hoping that Shireen's death wouldn't be by fire, the absolutely worse way to die.

 

I was hoping, like a fool that I am, that Shireen would be shown some mercy by her parents in her sacrifice.

 

But then her parents have never shown Shireen mercy.  I should have known better.   Stannis went all out to save her as an infant as that is what is expected and he is stubborn.  Then she was basically locked in a tower for the majority of her life.  She liked Castle Black because she had an opportunity to socialize with other people.

 

I remember when Shireen sneaks down to visit Davos in prison to teach him to read. He warns her that she could get into trouble for doing so - and her attitude was - "What could they do to me, that is worse than being imprisoned."

 

Well we found out what they could do now haven't we.  And nothing is worse than parents killing their own child.

[Drogo]

I was hoping that Shireen's death wouldn't be by fire, the absolutely worse way to die.

Melisandre to Davos' son before the Blackwater:

"Death by fire is the purest death."

[izabella]

Melisandre to Davos' son before the Blackwater:

"Death by fire is the purest death."

 

I think the Many-Faced God offers a much more user-friendly death by water.  I don't know what purity means in Mel's world.

[ihartcoffee]

Aw, that's really too bad, Cletus. I love the clockwork map of the opening credits. In fact, I think this is the only show I've ever followed where I don't start fast-forwarding through the opening credits after a while. I still watch them each and every time. As a kid, I desperately wanted an electric train set; I suspect the little clockwork model appeals to the same part of my brain.

Anyway, the model of Meereen in the credits still features the giant golden harpy perched on the top of the main pyramid -- even though we saw them tear it down, in that "this sequence draws on no contemporary iconography at all, nope, it doesn't, not at all, we promise, really" scene in the first episode this season. When Winterfell got sacked, its little model started smoking to reflect that fact, and then it changed once again after the Boltons had moved in and repaired the damage. But that harpy's still perched up there on the top of Meereen's pyramid. It's probably just a budgeting issue, but it's hard for me not to read it as significant even so. It's like a constant reminder that there are still a whole lot of hearts and minds that have not been won in that city.

I love to watch/listen to the opening too! The music gives me chills and I like the way they pan from place to place.

Interesting theory that's the harpy is still there because they aren't truly vanquished. Maybe symbolically, but not truly.

[ihartcoffee]

Yes, Mel burned Shireen alive. She also burned Mance, and many more on the beach at Dragonstone. Theon killed the miller's young boys and hung their small bodies, dipped in tar, from the walls of Winterfell. Cerise had Slynt murder Robert's bastards, including an infant. Bran was tossed out a window when very small, with the intention of killing him. The wise masters of Meereen had slave children nailed to crosses on the road to the city. Talisa, visibly pregnant, was stabbed in her belly at the Red Wedding.

Burning Shireen was dreadful, but hardly the worst that has been shown. The difference seems to be that viewers had a chance to watch her interact with other characters, and like her as an individual. I like to remember that the Mountain and crew have been rampaging, in the King's name, village after village, raping, torturing and murdering as is their want, with plenty of unseen victims, including infants and children.

Shireen's death is shocking not just because her father ordered it, but because she is not a nameless victim.

Exactly! It's easy to forget kids are not immune to violence in this show. I hated what happened to Shireen, but I get its an integral part out the story.

[paigow]

Melisandre to Davos' son before the Blackwater:

"Death by fire is the purest death."

If Stannis says "The time to hesitate is through"....somebody better light his fire...

[Hecate7]

Given that leeched blood from Gendry killed at least 2 contenders for the throne, I was hoping that Shireen's death wouldn't be by fire, the absolutely worse way to die.

 

I was hoping, like a fool that I am, that Shireen would be shown some mercy by her parents in her sacrifice.

 

But then her parents have never shown Shireen mercy.  I should have known better.   Stannis went all out to save her as an infant as that is what is expected and he is stubborn.  Then she was basically locked in a tower for the majority of her life.  She liked Castle Black because she had an opportunity to socialize with other people.

 

I remember when Shireen sneaks down to visit Davos in prison to teach him to read. He warns her that she could get into trouble for doing so - and her attitude was - "What could they do to me, that is worse than being imprisoned."

 

Well we found out what they could do now haven't we.  And nothing is worse than parents killing their own child.

 

They could at least have drugged her.

[Hecate7]

"the purest death." Hmmm. I think I know what it means and it's not a comfort. Death by water leaves something for the fish. It takes time for the remains to disappear. Death by air, as in going through the Moon Door, spatters the remains everywhere and requires birds, insects, and other creatures to clean up the remains over time. Death by earth also leaves remains. Death always involves a stench and a decomposition process, except for death by fire. 

 

Fire consumes its victims, leaving nothing for the fish, birds, worms, etc...to go to work on. It leaves only charred bones. I guess the next "purest" death would be to be eaten by a dragon or some other kind of animal, except that then you live on in a way in its body as it converts yours into its own. Fire just leaves ashes--you're not a cell in the body of a wolf, you're not floating around in some fish or being incorporated into a tree. You're ashes. For someone who truly believes in the Lord of Light, that would mean that all of you went to Rhllor, with nothing left out or lost or left over, and that would make them happy, I guess.

[candall]

 

Sylese was consistently shown to be extremely anxious about the safety of her daughter. It was written on her face, all season long. Every time Melisandre would mention Shireen having a "destiny," Selyse would look absolutely terrified. She was the one who didn't want to bring her daughter up north. She was the one who told Shireen: "You have no idea what people will do. All your books, and you still don't know." I thought it was very nicely foreshadowed that even though she was the nutty fanatical one, she was also the one who was not, in her heart of hearts, at all okay with filicide -- and who was, in fact, already terrified that things were heading in just that direction.

 

 

 

 

Cool story, Frost bro, but personally, I hold with those who favor ice. I'm not a terribly passionate person, really -- desire, to my mind, is often overrated -- and I've always loved the cold. Give me numbness over pain, any old day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speaking of which, I really liked Maisie's performance there. It's such a weird fucked-up rite of passage, the first time some rando on the street wolf-whistles or makes a perverted comment at you. It's the "Girl, You Are A Woman Now" moment that nobody ever wants to talk about, because there's really no way to spin it as something inspirational or positive, rather than something that just sorta sucks. That combination of surprised and grossed-out on Arya's face is exactly how I remember feeling at that age. Fuck puberty, man. What a miserable couple of years that was.

 

Of course, it was primarily there in the script to lead both Arya and the audience to the realization that she's now just old enough to have what it takes to appeal to scum like Meryn Trant, but it was still a cool little character moment.

 

Shades of Stoppard, right?

 

"The bad end unhappily, the good end unluckily. That is what tragedy means."

Excellent post.  I'd love to have several cups of coffee with you someday.

 

Re Selyse: 

I'm not a ghoul, but I've watched the last 20 minutes of this episode several times and I just can't quite understand Selyse.  First she's all "pip pip, we need this to happen," then she has a change of heart. . .and yet she's not exactly in mother tiger mode, tearing tooth and nail through the crowd to save her cub.  It only takes a couple of soldiers plucking at her before she wilts to the ground.

 

Unlike Elkins, I haven't noticed Selyse giving a rat's ass about Shireen in the past, so it was a clever twist to have Selyse surging forward while Stannis maintained his sad Ser Stalwart face, but as long as she was making the gesture, a smidge more oomph might've been in order.

 

My prize for watching this episode so many times is seeing Dany whisper "Valahd!" to her wounded dragon.  Shivers!

[CletusMusashi]

Aw, that's really too bad, Cletus. I love the clockwork map of the opening credits. In fact, I think this is the only show I've ever followed where I don't start fast-forwarding through the opening credits after a while. 

I agree they're good when you can see them properly.

Eventually, of course, the season comes out on DVD, and that's when I get to appreciate all the little visuals.

[Hecate7]

Excellent post.  I'd love to have several cups of coffee with you someday.

 

Re Selyse: 

I'm not a ghoul, but I've watched the last 20 minutes of this episode several times and I just can't quite understand Selyse.  First she's all "pip pip, we need this to happen," then she has a change of heart. . .and yet she's not exactly in mother tiger mode, tearing tooth and nail through the crowd to save her cub.  It only takes a couple of soldiers plucking at her before she wilts to the ground.

 

Unlike Elkins, I haven't noticed Selyse giving a rat's ass about Shireen in the past, so it was a clever twist to have Selyse surging forward while Stannis maintained his sad Ser Stalwart face, but as long as she was making the gesture, a smidge more oomph might've been in order.

 

My prize for watching this episode so many times is seeing Dany whisper "Valahd!" to her wounded dragon.  Shivers!

 

To be fair, Shireen was past saving by the time Selyse got free of the men restraining her. Once the screams stopped, it was over. That was a very small body they were burning and I'm sure it went fast.

[Freckledbruh]

Once the Wildlings were safely inside and the tunnel was secured again, that was the right time.

Not before.

Hmmmm, looks like it never happened regardless and now he is dead.