Race & Ethnicity On TV

[Guest]

Reading more on the stunt double issue I found this interesting story -> How Wigging Is Plaguing Hollywood Stunt Work & Erasing Minorities From The Industry

 

Technically it’s against SAG-AFTRA rules but they don’t punish those who do it and any stunt performers who speak out are retaliated against. 

[Browncoat]

14 hours ago, Bastet said:

I'm a white woman with thick curly hair (which I will not straighten), and I have to put in work to find those who know how to cut it, let alone style it. 

Same, except that I am in Podunk.  It's amazing how difficult it is to cut curly hair properly -- I've had some terrible cuts (and one insane woman who took thinning shears to my hair -- that was a nightmare for months).

[UnoAgain]

https://www.theroot.com/candace-owens-jason-whitlock-john-mcwhorter-sage-ste-184447221

Good read.. I've had a problem with J. Whitlock for Sooooooo long and he feels the worst to me because so many ppl are willing to listen to his nonsense... Mr. Mcworther I have at least understood his points from time to time even when I didn't totally agree... I won't speak on C. Owens... And S Steele... As a fellow bi( well multi for me)  racial person her actions feel more personal to me and sting as in one instance I can get the words she's using on a theoretical level... But they still come across as the stereotypical  "runaway from blackness" poster child my parents told me to never be

[In2You]

On 7/21/2020 at 5:13 PM, Neurochick said:

But I've seen black people with two black parents with those same features.

 

Most Black women do not look like them and I'm so tired of people jumping in and saying this in their defense. It's an excuse for producers to always choose that look.

[Neurochick]

6 minutes ago, In2You said:

Most Black women do not look like them and I'm so tired of people jumping in and saying this in their defense. It's an excuse for producers to always choose that look.

Not an excuse if it's true.  

I'll just sit in the corner and shut up.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Neurochick

[Trini]

2 hours ago, In2You said:

Most Black women do not look like them and I'm so tired of people jumping in and saying this in their defense. It's an excuse for producers to always choose that look.

Colorism and casting agents/Hollywood in general preferring people who look closer to Eurocentric beauty ideals is certainly an issue; but I don't anyone was saying it's an excuse.

I, myself, hesitate to say what "most" Black women look like, since I grew up in places where they came in all the shades and features. And yes, we should see more women with Afrocentric features onscreen.

[aradia22]

Quote

Ugh - 'Will this job ruin my hair?' isn't something that actors should have to worry about! Especially in show business where one's appearance is part of the job.

Enough white actresses also have their hair ruined that I don't understand why they don't just find good wigs for actresses on a long-running series. This is almost never a problem for men. Except maybe with someone like James Marsters when he played Spike on Buffy (unconfirmed, just a guess). 

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

Enough white actresses also have their hair ruined that I don't understand why they don't just find good wigs for actresses on a long-running series. This is almost never a problem for men. Except maybe with someone like James Marsters when he played Spike on Buffy (unconfirmed, just a guess). 

I am of the opinion that UNTIL enough white actresses also have their hair ruined, then change won't happen.  Unless of course all these 'we support black lives' statements that studios are making really do translate into substantive change and is not just for optics. 

Also male actors definitely do have a problem.  I remember when several months ago a couple of high profile actresses first started to publicly complain about this, a few male actors also piped up.  Most recently, Ray Fisher who has publicly accused Joss Whedon for being 'abusive' and basically re-affirming my belief that he is an all around trash person, wrote a tweet that his barber worked with principal photography for eight months and did not get a screen credit.

Here is a Variety article that includes a Zoom video of several black actors (Aldis Hodge, Derek Luke, Algee Smith etc.) who talk about hair and make up as well.  The hair make-up discussion starts at 33:04 and continues for about 10 minutes.  Very enlightening.

 

[Blergh]

It's rarer but not unheard of for white male performers to get their hair ruined. Micky Dolenz had his brown hair bleached white as  preteen  to look more 'all American' when he starred in Circus Boy then in the latter part of The Monkees he had to wear curlers to achieve that 'curly haired' look- and today he wears hats almost all the time! 

[In2You]

On 7/23/2020 at 4:46 PM, Neurochick said:

Not an excuse if it's true.  

I'll just sit in the corner and shut up.

How many of those people are highly mixed? You and I both know those features are not the feature the majority of Black people you see have. Every time the issue is brought up about lack of casting dark skinned Black women someone light skinned wants to bring out the all shades argument instead of just acknowledging casting directors like to cast biracial women because they are closer to whiteness.

Edited July 25, 2020 by In2You

[angora]

9 hours ago, Blergh said:

It's rarer but not unheard of for white male performers to get their hair ruined. Micky Dolenz had his brown hair bleached white as  preteen  to look more 'all American' when he starred in Circus Boy then in the latter part of The Monkees he had to wear curlers to achieve that 'curly haired' look- and today he wears hats almost all the time! 

Really? I thought it was the other way around, that Micky had to straighten his hair for The Monkees' first season ('cause the curly hair didn't fit the more clean-cut mod look they were going for then - it's curly in season 2, when they're letting their hippie flags fly a bit more.)

It seems like, when white performers' hair gets ruined, it's because of active ongoing efforts to change it, i.e. aggressive dyeing or straightening/curling to achieve a particular. Whereas, with Black performers, it's because the stylists just have no earthly idea what they're doing. Ditto plenty of people working in makeup and lighting, but the hairstylists can cause a lot more physical damage that lasts beyond the footage that's shot that day.

[Blergh]

11 hours ago, angora said:

Really? I thought it was the other way around, that Micky had to straighten his hair for The Monkees' first season ('cause the curly hair didn't fit the more clean-cut mod look they were going for then - it's curly in season 2, when they're letting their hippie flags fly a bit more.)

It seems like, when white performers' hair gets ruined, it's because of active ongoing efforts to change it, i.e. aggressive dyeing or straightening/curling to achieve a particular. Whereas, with Black performers, it's because the stylists just have no earthly idea what they're doing. Ditto plenty of people working in makeup and lighting, but the hairstylists can cause a lot more physical damage that lasts beyond the footage that's shot that day.

 In his autobio, Mr. Dolenz talked about the bleaching in his childhood and the curlers to make it look extra curly from the latter part of the Monkees  (and all his photos from early childhood to prior to the latter show gave evidence that he essentially had straight hair with perhaps a very slight wave prior to the use of curlers). 

It's too bad that African-American performers aren't given regular access to stylists who actually know how to safely maintain their styles. IIRC, the late performer Prince had a full time hairdresser on staff that could only work on HIS hair alone -    his onetime wife Mayte Garcia said that even when the marriage was at its healthiest state, her husband still insisted that he himself had to use the hairdresser's services exclusively while she would be compelled to find another on her own if she wanted her hair done. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Blergh

[UnoAgain]

https://www.outkick.com/lebron-mookie-and-mlb-promote-divisive-corporate-approved-blm-lifestyle/

The latest from "sports reporter" and former fox sports one host Jason Whitlock... 

And if u wonder why I think he's so dangerous.. Check the comments of his article... Took fox like 3 years to can him.. Thankfully 

[Neurochick]

18 hours ago, In2You said:

How many of those people are highly mixed? You and I both know those features are not the feature the majority of Black people you see have. Every time the issue is brought up about lack of casting dark skinned Black women someone light skinned wants to bring out the all shades argument instead of just acknowledging casting directors like to cast biracial women because they are closer to whiteness.

When I read this I thought, "you just want light skinned and mixed women to just go away PERIOD." 

But now I think it is variety.  On Married At First Sight, Couples Cam, they follow some of the still married couples, as they dead with COVID-19.  Three of the couples are black.  One of the wives is light skinned, one if dark skinned, the other is kind of in the middle.  Maybe the question should be, if the reality shows can do it, why can't the scripted shows do it?

That said, I really think black woman have to be careful before going on reality TV shows.  To me, whenever a cable network wants to get an audience, that network (probably through testing) will put on reality TV shows they feel will appeal to black women.  VH1 is doing that now, WEtv is doing that, and the worst offender, Oxygen did that.  Eva Marcille had a show on Oxygen called Girlfriend Confidential, that lasted a year.  There was also a show called Sisterhood of Hip Hop, also on Oxygen and then there was The Bad Girls Club, Oxygen's jewel in the crown.  That show was nothing more than women fighting, and I don't think they got paid all that much.

When Oxygen decided they wanted to "change direction" meaning, "screw all of you black folks" they turned into a true crime channel in 2017.  But some of the women who were on Bad Girls Club are still dealing with the effects of being on that show.  Black women are also demonized for doing the same shit white women do on these shows.  I watched RHONYC and the episode ended with Sonja (a petite, white blonde woman) dancing on top of a table in heels, breaking the glass on the table.  I thought, if Nene did something like that on RHOA, people would be screaming their heads off, calling her "violent."

Edited July 25, 2020 by Neurochick

[Broken Ox]

On 7/19/2020 at 9:14 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I’m watching P-Valley on Starz (it’s now a full forum), and I can tell there are black women in the writers room- and black women with knowledge of the gulf coast/creole culture. The first time a character was called “red bone” I CRINGED but it was authentic. 

I was unfamiliar with that term, and then the day after I read your post I heard it in an audiobook. It probably would have just slipped by had I not just seen it here. 

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

When I read this I thought, "you just want light skinned and mixed women to just go away PERIOD." 

But now I think is variety.  On Married At First Sight, Couples Cam, they follow some of the still married couples, as they dead with COVID-19.  Three of the couples are black.  One of the wives is light skinned, one if dark skinned, the other is kind of in the middle.  Maybe the question should be, if the reality shows can do it, why can't the scripted shows do it?

Yes.  I think at the end of the day, this is really what it boils down to.  You want a variety of stories showcasing a variety of experiences starring a variety of people.  That is literally what 'diversity' means.

TV pivoting from featuring shows that star all white people to simply adding in  actors or shows  that include black and brown folks who  look near-white isn't the diversity most want or even really need when it comes to rep.  And it isn't just black actors this concern. I follow quite a few of Desi authors on twitter and the colorism wrt Indian, Pakistani and Bengali women in tv and film absolutely mirrors that we see of black women.  Indian men can be dark but the women, ooh child... they have to be light.  Latinx casting, as I already cited above, want their Latins (both men and women) to to be JLo brown, not Amara LaNegra brown.  And of course The Highlander Rule is in full effect.

I wish there was more parity in casting because I personally celebrate any black or brown woman getting cast and am more inclined to try out a new a show if there is one but I want to not feel a that little bit of let down when I learn that yet another role when to a very, very light complected non-white woman. 

Which brings to me to yet another rah-rah moment for Dear White People.  Sam is a main character but she is the only light skinned woman on the show.  Joelle, Coco, Kelsey and Brooke are all dark.  And both Joelle and especially  Coco have dealt with colorism explicitly on the show.  And I would  go so far as to say that CoCo is arguably the best written character on the show.  And the show has a diverse cast and yes includes some complex and well written white people.  And every one white, black, Latinx, gay, bi or straight are shown in positive and negative lights.  Sam is shown to be in denial of and still benefiting from her own light skinned privilege.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Neurochick said:

But now I think is variety.  On Married At First Sight, Couples Cam, they follow some of the still married couples, as they dead with COVID-19.  Three of the couples are black.  One of the wives is light skinned, one if dark skinned, the other is kind of in the middle.  Maybe the question should be, if the reality shows can do it, why can't the scripted shows do it?

Exactly. There is a tendency to treat diversity as simple checkbox that can be filled by one or two minority characters. It creates the real danger of “fixing” the problem by taking away roles for a slightly better represented group. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Guest

[topanga]

On 7/23/2020 at 4:44 PM, In2You said:

Most Black women do not look like them and I'm so tired of people jumping in and saying this in their defense. It's an excuse for producers to always choose that look.

 

On 7/23/2020 at 4:46 PM, Neurochick said:

Not an excuse if it's true.  

I'll just sit in the corner and shut up.

Both of you are correct. No one needs to sit down. The problem is that there are not enough opportunities for “regular” looking black actresses because their looks are not what Hollywood is usually pursuing: medium or dark skin, not golden brown. African features —fairly wide nose and full lips. And 4c hair, not loosely curly. 
 

[aradia22]

Quote

TV pivoting from featuring shows that star all white people to simply adding in  actors or shows  that include black and brown folks who  look near-white isn't the diversity most want or even really need when it comes to rep.  And it isn't just black actors this concern. I follow quite a few of Desi authors on twitter and the colorism wrt Indian, Pakistani and Bengali women in tv and film absolutely mirrors that we see of black women.  Indian men can be dark but the women, ooh child... they have to be light.  Latinx casting, as I already cited above, want their Latins (both men and women) to to be JLo brown, not Amara LaNegra brown.  And of course The Highlander Rule is in full effect.

Yup. It's insidious. And I don't think it's an accident that it's so difficult to talk about it. I don't want to sit here analyzing what foundation everyone uses and all of their features. But as with every conversation about statistics, we have to have it because otherwise white people in power will just continue to deny the problem. But we're not stupid. We know what's happening. 

Even East Asian actresses get this. Maggie Q, Olivia Munn, Bingbing Fan, Awkwafina, Margaret Cho, Hong Chau, Sandra Oh, Gemma Chan, Lucy Liu, Ming-Na Wen, Michelle Yeoh, Zhang Ziyi... I think a lot of the time we get tricked into having a conversation about "model-like" or "Hollywood beauty" actresses and actresses who look like "normal" or "average" people. When what we really mean is that some actresses are closer to whiteness than others and it gives them advantages. It starts to make me feel a little insane sometimes recognizing how much even the majority of BIPOC faces on screen are much closer to whiteness and white beauty standards than the general population of women around me in my day to day life.

[ursula]

7 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

It starts to make me feel a little insane sometimes recognizing how much even the majority of BIPOC faces on screen are much closer to whiteness and white beauty standards than the general population of women around me in my day to day life.

I shivered reading this because it’s so true. We’re supposed to see ‘ourselves’ in these people, but all I see is more Whiteness, and more erasure of my own identity, and in a way, this is even more horrifying than the complete absence of Black people in a show/cast.

Edited July 26, 2020 by ursula

[aradia22]

I was going to type a long comment about the collapsing of mixed race, Asian American, and the wide spectrum of Asian identities into one but I'm trying to avoid rambling incoherently so much in the middle of the night. I do want to point out that being close to whiteness is not just about your looks but your ability to culturally assimilate. How much can you perform whiteness? Where were you born? What schools did you go to? How much do you sound like them and speak like them? How much can you code-switch and assimilate through behavior?

Being born in the right place or going to the right schools helped some of these actresses better assimilate to whiteness...

Quote

Maggie Q, Olivia Munn, Bingbing Fan, Awkwafina, Margaret Cho, Hong Chau, Sandra Oh, Gemma Chan, Lucy Liu, Ming-Na Wen, Michelle Yeoh, Zhang Ziyi.

 

[Trini]

I learned a few new things from this: 'Afrofuturism - "Black To The Future 3(D): Real A.F." | Comic-Con@Home 2020'. The title is misleading; the panelists discuss Black representation/participation in Hollywood.

Quote

Panelists include: Erika Alexander (Living Single), Tim Russ (Star Trek: Voyager), Denys Cowan (The Boondocks), Kevin Grevioux (Underworld), Professor Ajani Brown (San Diego State University), and Rico Anderson (The Orville). Moderated by Jimmy Diggs (Star Trek: Voyager).

 

[Blergh]

One curious footnote re casting against type (and/or not caring about the performer's actual ethnicity) is when  Elena Verdugo starred in the sitcom from 1952-1956 Meet Millie playing a secretary called Millie Bronson who lived with her mother Mrs. Bronson (played by  tart-tongued Florence Halop who was only two years older) with the latter constantly trying to get her daughter married (and married well) but with Millie herself somewhat content with being self-supporting and supporting her mother on her secretary's salary! What's interesting is that before and after this series Miss Verdugo was cast as Latin American spitfires or, in later years, Latin American characters but she herself had actually been born in Los Angeles and, far from being a 'foreigner', was a direct descendant of some of California's earliest Spanish families. Yet, for the series, her character had no unconventional ethnicity (and she performed under her actual original name not a generic WASPy on) but this would be rather exceptional for those times and for many decades thereafter. 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Blergh

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Blergh said:

One curious footnote re casting against type (and/or not caring about the performer's actual ethnicity) is when  Elena Verdugo starred in the sitcom from 1952-1956 Meet Millie playing a secretary called Millie Bronson who lived with her mother Mrs. Bronson (played by  tart-tongued Florence Halop who was only two years older) with the latter constantly trying to get her daughter married (and married well) but with Millie herself somewhat content with being self-supporting and supporting her mother on her secretary's salary! What's interesting is that before and after this series Miss Verdugo was cast as Latin American spitfires or, in later years, Latin American characters but she herself had actually been born in Los Angeles and, far from being a 'foreigner' was a direct descendant of some of California's earliest Spanish families. Yet, for the series, her character had no unconventional ethnicity but this would be rather exceptional for those times and for many decades thereafter. 

I’m not sure I understand why that was exceptional. When she was a brunette she played an assortment of “ethnic” characters and as a blonde she played a character with no “unconventional ethnicity”. That seems depressingly normal to me. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Guest

[angora]

17 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Yup. It's insidious. And I don't think it's an accident that it's so difficult to talk about it. I don't want to sit here analyzing what foundation everyone uses and all of their features. But as with every conversation about statistics, we have to have it because otherwise white people in power will just continue to deny the problem. But we're not stupid. We know what's happening. 

Even East Asian actresses get this. Maggie Q, Olivia Munn, Bingbing Fan, Awkwafina, Margaret Cho, Hong Chau, Sandra Oh, Gemma Chan, Lucy Liu, Ming-Na Wen, Michelle Yeoh, Zhang Ziyi... I think a lot of the time we get tricked into having a conversation about "model-like" or "Hollywood beauty" actresses and actresses who look like "normal" or "average" people. When what we really mean is that some actresses are closer to whiteness than others and it gives them advantages. It starts to make me feel a little insane sometimes recognizing how much even the majority of BIPOC faces on screen are much closer to whiteness and white beauty standards than the general population of women around me in my day to day life.

Yeah, colorism seems to permeate pretty much all communities of color, and while men aren't immune to it (Tan France from Queer Eye has spoken up about this,) as usual, it's generally worse for women. Whenever I see a straight BIPOC couple on TV or in a movie, I always take notice of their complexions, and it's exceedingly rare to see a female character who's darker than her male partner (shout-out to Chadwick Boseman and Lupita Nyong'o in Black Panther!) That goes for Hollywood as well as various foreign film industries (ex: Hong Kong. I love the movies Tony Leung Chiu-wai and Maggie Cheung have made together, but the differences in their skin tones always stand out to me. Even though I don't even think of Tony Leung as particularly dark, Maggie Cheung's complexion is much lighter in comparison.)

Not to say that darker-skinned women are "real" BIPOC and lighter-skinned women aren't. As others have said on this thread, it's about variety and opportunity. When women of color only represent a small fraction of TV and film characters, it's disheartening to consistently see faces that conform to certain Eurocentric-based standards of beauty, leaving darker-skinned women with fewer characters whose faces reflect their own and darker-skinned actresses with fewer chances to demonstrate their talents.

[xaxat]

I really like science fiction. One of the things that really annoys is the fact that dark skin characters are relatively uncommon. Because, you know, the future is "multi-racial." Yet, at the same time, you get characters who look like they came straight from Iceland or Norway. (And don't even get me started on Peter Jackson's Tolkein movies.)

 

[Anduin]

9 minutes ago, xaxat said:

I really like science fiction. One of the things that really annoys is the fact that dark skin characters are relatively uncommon. Because, you know, the future is "multi-racial." Yet, at the same time, you get characters who look like they came straight from Iceland or Norway. (And don't even get me started on Peter Jackson's Tolkein movies.)

 

As much as I love Tolkien, in many ways he was a product of his time, or even previous eras. I won't deny that Middle-earth is pretty pale. That's one area where Jackson was true to the books. Jackson tried a little diversity with the extras in Lake-town, but it really was only a little. IIRC, everyone with dialogue was white.

OTOH, the forthcoming Second Age show has several POCs in the cast. Next year, with any luck...

[UnoAgain]

37 minutes ago, Anduin said:

As much as I love Tolkien, in many ways he was a product of his time, or even previous eras. I won't deny that Middle-earth is pretty pale. That's one area where Jackson was true to the books. Jackson tried a little diversity with the extras in Lake-town, but it really was only a little. IIRC, everyone with dialogue was white.

OTOH, the forthcoming Second Age show has several POCs in the cast. Next year, with any luck...

I was around 8 or so when it hit me watching the 2nd LOTR that.. Nobody really looked like me.. Or even kinda like me or my family.. And almost everyone close in the last few generations have looked like what most of us have been speaking about in this thread... We are light to lighter skinned BIPOC.. With for the most part racially ambigous features and I still didn't see us in fantasy.. Its gotten better but the females do always seem lighter and less ethnic then the males.. Its so common that when I see the inverse I'm pleasantly surprised... One because while I don't have any immediate female cousins who'd fall into that range I do have friends and "aunties " who've lamented seeing too many women who look like my mom and them.. But not how they look.. And two.. Cuz it meant a black guy on tv looked kinda like me... And that's still rare

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, xaxat said:

I really like science fiction. One of the things that really annoys is the fact that dark skin characters are relatively uncommon. Because, you know, the future is "multi-racial." Yet, at the same time, you get characters who look like they came straight from Iceland or Norway. (And don't even get me started on Peter Jackson's Tolkein movies.)

 

Science Fiction is a little better than Fantasy when it comes to this.  Too many fantasy writers, imo, took their cues from Tolkien and created worlds that are basically carbon copies of Middle Earth.  They are all rooted in some fantasy version of Medieval Europe, usually England. And of course, since black/brown people hadn't been invented yet (unless it is an inscrutable servant found in some far away exotic land) they are all basically erased.  Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire series is one high level exception that I can think of off the top of my head.  Very diverse and so very much not a derivative of Tolkein.

But one thing I noticed right away when I read David Weber's military science fiction Honor Harrington series is that he populates his world with all hues.  Yes, in the Honorverse future there are planets galore with populations galore and lots of intermarriage has made a lot of people a basic brown-beige, but he makes a point to still have characters who are phenotypical throwbacks.  Honor's own mother is Asian, straight out.  Honor is half white half Asian but her features are Asian.  Queen Elizabeth (the Queen of the planet that Honor serves) comes from African stock but through intermarriage etc. is now a light brown (I picture her looking like Halle Berry) but Honor's best friend and the Queen's cousin, Michelle, is a very dark brown  and there is an uncle who is described as ebony. 

I am super glad that the tv adaptation of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series is cast with majority BIPOC.  And so far the casting looks dead on for the characters!  It also makes sense because in text the main character Rand (the white skinned red-head) is the one that is supposed to look out of place of everyone else.

Edited July 27, 2020 by DearEvette

[Fukui San]

Making the Twitter rounds:

 

[Anduin]

7 hours ago, UnoAgain said:

I was around 8 or so when it hit me watching the 2nd LOTR that.. Nobody really looked like me.. Or even kinda like me or my family.. And almost everyone close in the last few generations have looked like what most of us have been speaking about in this thread... We are light to lighter skinned BIPOC.. With for the most part racially ambigous features and I still didn't see us in fantasy.. Its gotten better but the females do always seem lighter and less ethnic then the males.. Its so common that when I see the inverse I'm pleasantly surprised... One because while I don't have any immediate female cousins who'd fall into that range I do have friends and "aunties " who've lamented seeing too many women who look like my mom and them.. But not how they look.. And two.. Cuz it meant a black guy on tv looked kinda like me... And that's still rare

I think I get what you mean, though I've never experienced it for myself. Even the blackest movie I've seen, Black Panther, had two white guys playing notable parts.

And yeah, Wheel of Time looks promising. And big plus, it has the Aussie Madeleine Madden in the main cast. I'm parochial like that. 🙂 Trivia: she's biracial, European and Aboriginal.

[aradia22]

Random thought since we're talking about Australians... why is it taking so long for Jessica Mauboy to crossover to America? I'm not even saying she should be in our movies and TV shows but more people should know her name. 

[Neurochick]

14 hours ago, Anduin said:

As much as I love Tolkien, in many ways he was a product of his time, or even previous eras. I won't deny that Middle-earth is pretty pale. That's one area where Jackson was true to the books. Jackson tried a little diversity with the extras in Lake-town, but it really was only a little. IIRC, everyone with dialogue was white.

OTOH, the forthcoming Second Age show has several POCs in the cast. Next year, with any luck...

Here's my thing.  Tolkien or whoever has the right to create whatever kind of fantasy they want.  I loved all the LOTR moves.  I didn't care if I didn't see anybody who looked like me, because for that universe, I didn't need it.  That's not the issue.  I watched the movie "Tolkien" last summer and it was interesting.  He based the "Fellowship" on his friends that he knew in school.  All of them except for one person was killed in WWI.  All of his friends were white, that's just the way it was.

What I think is the issue is that ONLY Tolkien's version of fantasy is what comes on screen.  People don't have the same experiences and their voices should be heard as well.

I mean look at what happened when the show "Merlin" came out.  People lost their shit because Guinevere was played by Angel Coulby and there were actually black people in the show.  I think I told someone, "Dude, there's a talking dragon in this show.  Why do you only apply realism when it comes to race?"

Edited July 27, 2020 by Neurochick

[Neurochick]

4 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Random thought since we're talking about Australians... why is it taking so long for Jessica Mauboy to crossover to America? I'm not even saying she should be in our movies and TV shows but more people should know her name. 

I just listened to one of her songs, she's beautiful, I can't put my finger on who she sounds like.  

[Minneapple]

On 7/24/2020 at 12:34 PM, aradia22 said:

Enough white actresses also have their hair ruined that I don't understand why they don't just find good wigs for actresses on a long-running series. This is almost never a problem for men. Except maybe with someone like James Marsters when he played Spike on Buffy (unconfirmed, just a guess). 

Sophie Turner switched to wigs when her hair was getting damaged from hair dye for Game of Thrones.

On 7/25/2020 at 3:22 PM, DearEvette said:

TV pivoting from featuring shows that star all white people to simply adding in  actors or shows  that include black and brown folks who  look near-white isn't the diversity most want or even really need when it comes to rep.  And it isn't just black actors this concern. I follow quite a few of Desi authors on twitter and the colorism wrt Indian, Pakistani and Bengali women in tv and film absolutely mirrors that we see of black women.  Indian men can be dark but the women, ooh child... they have to be light. 

I had to stop watching Bollywood movies because of this. Well, also because Bollywood movies are mostly stupid nowadays, but that is another story. ALL of the actresses look white! Like, all of them! And a lot of the actors and actresses promote those skin lightening ("Fair and Lovely") products. Colorism is hugely problematic in Indian culture. I myself have been told that it's too bad my daughter didn't get my son's coloring because he is fairer than her. No, I'm not kidding.

[GHScorpiosRule]

40 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Sophie Turner switched to wigs when her hair was getting damaged from hair dye for Game of Thrones.

I had to stop watching Bollywood movies because of this. Well, also because Bollywood movies are mostly stupid nowadays, but that is another story. ALL of the actresses look white! Like, all of them! And a lot of the actors and actresses promote those skin lightening ("Fair and Lovely") products. Colorism is hugely problematic in Indian culture. I myself have been told that it's too bad my daughter didn't get my son's coloring because he is fairer than her. No, I'm not kidding.

Oh yeah. CRAP for at least the last decade and a half.

I can think of only two, that's right TWO, actresses who weren't fair. That's Rekha and the late Smita Patil--these are two that made it to the A-List. And even while Rekha is darker, a lot of the times, her make-up made her look more...fair than she is.

But my NO. 1 hero/actor of all time? That's right, Amitabh Bachchan, is tall, DARK, and SEXAY. Irony is, he had a very hard time breaking in, because he was too "skinny", too Tall (6'3"), too "dark." BAH!  

Even Kajol is on the dusky/darker side, but can't have that. Make-up always to make her look more fair.

I think one of Dharmendra and Hema Malini's daughters is on the darker side, which I found interesting, as both Dharam and Hema are fair, fair, fair! But she can't act for shit from the one movie I saw her in.

Edited July 27, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[UnoAgain]

5 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Random thought since we're talking about Australians... why is it taking so long for Jessica Mauboy to crossover to America? I'm not even saying she should be in our movies and TV shows but more people should know her name. 

She was great in secret daughter 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

I had to stop watching Bollywood movies because of this. Well, also because Bollywood movies are mostly stupid nowadays, but that is another story. ALL of the actresses look white! Like, all of them! And a lot of the actors and actresses promote those skin lightening ("Fair and Lovely") products. Colorism is hugely problematic in Indian culture. I myself have been told that it's too bad my daughter didn't get my son's coloring because he is fairer than her. No, I'm not kidding.

That’s awful. I had no clue about this until people started calling out Netflix’s Indian Matchmaking on it. 
Netflix's 'Indian Matchmaking' Is The Talk Of India — And Not In A Good Way

[Lugal]

18 hours ago, Anduin said:

As much as I love Tolkien, in many ways he was a product of his time, or even previous eras. I won't deny that Middle-earth is pretty pale. That's one area where Jackson was true to the books. Jackson tried a little diversity with the extras in Lake-town, but it really was only a little. IIRC, everyone with dialogue was white.

Tolkien was definitely a product of his time, both culturally and scholastically.  Much of what we think we know about the Middle Ages is from the Victorians, who had their own biases and agendas.  Only in the last few decades has research and archeology overturned much of what they wrote and a lot of it has not yet filtered out into the pop culture.  Medieval Europe was much more diverse than anyone thought.  Some Icelanders are descended from a Native American woman and Nubian kings would pass through Constantinople on pilgrimages to Rome or even Santiago.

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

That’s awful. I had no clue about this until people started calling out Netflix’s Indian Matchmaking on it. 
Netflix's 'Indian Matchmaking' Is The Talk Of India — And Not In A Good Way

Yes in USA colloquially we say “light skinned”, in India they say “fair”- same meaning different term. 

[Minneapple]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

That’s awful. I had no clue about this until people started calling out Netflix’s Indian Matchmaking on it. 
Netflix's 'Indian Matchmaking' Is The Talk Of India — And Not In A Good Way

I mean...we can call out the show, but it's probably better to call out the culture, which the show is only exposing. People want fair-skinned matches within their own caste because of enormous cultural and familial pressure. A lot of Indians pretend to be progressive and open-minded but when it comes to things like marriage and family -- it's a whole NIMBY thing. 

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Even Kajol is on the dusky/darker side, but can't have that. Make-up always to make her look more fair.

I think the same for Aishwarya too, makeup makes her look lighter-skinned than she is. 

[Trini]

Comic-con panel: Super Asian America | Comic-Con@Home2020:

Quote

From blockbuster productions like Mulan and Shang Chi to streaming hits like The Half Of It, Asian Americans continue to make strides in media and representation. With race at the forefront of the national consciousness, from anti-racism protests to the rise in anti-Asian hate crimes in a post-COVID world, it's a poignant time to assess the state of Super Asian America.

Join Racebending for our 10th annual (and first virtual) discussion of all things Super Asian American, featuring Peter Shinkoda (Daredevil), Deric Hughes (The Flash), Joy Regullano (White Fetish) and Bao Phi (Sông I Sing).

 

 

[Neurochick]

17 hours ago, Dani said:

That’s awful. I had no clue about this until people started calling out Netflix’s Indian Matchmaking on it. 
Netflix's 'Indian Matchmaking' Is The Talk Of India — And Not In A Good Way

Question.  Should Netflix be called out for showing what exists?  

All Netflix did was to hold up a mirror really.  Was it their job to say, "OMG, this is bad!"  If they did that, they'd be criticized for being hypocrites.  

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Neurochick

[Neurochick]

17 hours ago, Lugal said:

Tolkien was definitely a product of his time, both culturally and scholastically.  Much of what we think we know about the Middle Ages is from the Victorians, who had their own biases and agendas.  Only in the last few decades has research and archeology overturned much of what they wrote and a lot of it has not yet filtered out into the pop culture.  Medieval Europe was much more diverse than anyone thought.  Some Icelanders are descended from a Native American woman and Nubian kings would pass through Constantinople on pilgrimages to Rome or even Santiago.

I don't think it's even about research.  LOTR was not a historical novel, it was fantasy.   Everybody has the right to write whatever the hell they want, with characters who look like anything they want.  The problem is that ONLY one vision of fantasy gets made and Tolkien's version is gospel.  

Edited July 28, 2020 by Neurochick

[Anduin]

22 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I don't think it's even about research.  LOTR was not a historical novel, it was fantasy.   Everybody has the right to write whatever the hell they want, with characters who look like anything they want.  The problem is that ONLY one vision of fantasy gets made and Tolkien's version is gospel.  

With any luck, Wheel of Time and LOTR Second Age will change that. Next year...

[praeceptrix]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Question.  Should Netflix be called out for showing what exists?  

All Netflix did was to hold up a mirror really.  Was it their job to say, "OMG, this is bad!"  If they did that, they'd be criticized for being hypocrites.  

 

That's one of the points made in this article on BBC:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-53499195

From the article: 

The show does not question these prejudices but, as some point out, what it does do is hold up a mirror - a disturbing reminder of patriarchy and misogyny, casteism and colourism.

And, as writer Devaiah Bopanna points out in an Instagram post, that is where its true merit lies.

"Is the show problematic? Reality is problematic. And this is a freaking reality show," he writes.

"Reality is not 1.3 billion woke people worried about clean energy and free speech. In fact, I would have been offended if Sima Aunty was woke and spoke about choice, body positivity and clean energy during matchmaking. Because that is not true and it is not real."

[aradia22]

I'm in the very slow process of clearing out my email inbox which sometimes means unearthing very old articles from newsletters I never read.

Quote

And doctors comfortable advertising their expertise in ethnic plastic surgery are growing wealthy creasing Asian eyelids, pushing sloped foreheads forward, and pulling prominent mouths back. These are procedures outsiders generally view as deracinating processes, sharpening the stereotypically flat noses of Asians, blacks, and Latinos while flattening the stereotypically sharp noses of Arabs and Jews. 

Quote

So why won’t outsiders take them at their word? The most obvious answer is history. The first known Asian eyelid surgery was performed in 1896 in Japan, to create symmetry in a woman born with one creased eyelid and one monolid. Thirty years later, it had reached the States. “Changes Racial Features: Young Japanese Wins American Bride by Resort to Plastic Surgery,” the New York Times announced, in 1926, of a man named Shima Kito who fell in love with a white woman named Mildred. She agreed to marry him only after he “cut the eye corners so that the slant eye so characteristic of the Japanese race was gone. He lowered the skin and flesh of the nose so that the upturned trait disappeared, and he tightened the pendulous lower lip.” Then he changed his name to William White and got engaged to Mildred.

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Kwan uses the term “ethnic nose” to describe a category of low-lying noses common to Asians, African-Americans, and Hispanics. “Caucasians usually have a high bridge, so their nose jobs are called ‘reduction rhinoplasty and shaping.’ We remove some bone, narrowing it and smoothing it out and making the tip a nicer shape,” he explains. With “ethnic noses,” “the bridge is flat and we have to add something,” usually a hard silicone implant or cartilage grafted from the ear, rib, or septum. Similar implants can raise the profile of a sloping forehead or weak chin and cost several thousand dollars.

Quote

Facial contouring is popular in Korea and includes procedures like V-line jaw shaving, which turns round faces into hearts in pursuit of an ideal more manga than Playboy, softening the angles of a square jaw and creating a daintier chin. “Double-jaw surgery” is a procedure sometimes used to treat severe underbites and other deformities, now being used for a cosmetic purpose, in which the jawbone is broken and pulled back while the maxilla (or palate) is broken and pulled forward, to yield a fetishized mini-chin.

Quote

But even the work that Jones performs, on patients who are predominantly African-American, doesn’t give a neat picture of racial convergence. “Our two big procedures are ethnic rhinoplasty, which tends to make an ethnic or African nose more Anglo—and butts! We are giving people larger derrières,” Jones says. There, “they want more ethnicity.” 

https://www.thecut.com/2014/07/ethnic-plastic-surgery.html

[Neurochick]

24 minutes ago, praeceptrix said:

"Reality is not 1.3 billion woke people worried about clean energy and free speech. In fact, I would have been offended if Sima Aunty was woke and spoke about choice, body positivity and clean energy during matchmaking. Because that is not true and it is not real."

So true.  Everybody has boundaries when it comes to dating and mating.  It could be caste/size/skin color; it could also be education/career/region.  Life sucks a lot.

[aradia22]

So cute. More interracial relationships and non-white Disney princesses, please. Even when it's not the intended purpose of the fan art, it makes you think.

https://www.popsugar.co.uk/entertainment/Guy-Turns-Girlfriend-Disney-Art-46347396

[DearEvette]

I think all the cookie cutter fantasy novels that came after Tolkein is just another version of selection bias.  Publishing is like tv, there are gate keepers who decide what has value and what they consider is marketable because it was successful once.  So they want to acquire things that replicate that success.  Well if it worked once, it'll work again and again. 

Leaving my problems with fantasy fiction aside (seriously I could write a novel on how  frustrating it is  for the one genre where your imagination should take precedence over reality and yet is seems to be overstuffed with just different alt-versions of 1500s Europe)  it is just business as usual.

Like in TV when we saw LA Law become the best show, suddenly we got a lot of lawyer shows.  Ditto when ER was the big show, welp, here are a bunch of medical dramas next season.  Most recently we got This Is Us and suddenly... a bunch of emotional wringer family dramas popped up.

As I see if there are two problems:  1 ) if TV continues to adapt popular works, then the variety just isn't there because another industry's own selective bias was at work and those Tolkein-influenced works make up a lot of the fantasy catalog.  And unless TV consciously decides to race-bend when they adapt then we're stuck with the same ol' same 'ol.  As much as I am happy they decided to race-bend a lot of the WOT characters, the fact of the matter is as a story, WOT is absolutely derivative of Tolkein.

And 2) even when there are other/different works by more diverse writers,  TV execs will ignore those and still choose to adapt the same type of works because of their own selective bias and some idea that nothing else will sell.  I mean, seriously, LOTR and The Hobbit have already been adapted for the screen and have been wildly successful.  Out of all the hundreds of thousands of fantasy and sci-fi work that could have been chosen, was it really necessary to adapt it again for tv?  And I am not just talking about science-fiction or fantasy.  Romance novels make up the lion's share of the publishing sales and yet very few romance novels are adapted for tv. And when they are, they are of a very selected type (treacly and conservative) or are given what looks like a $10.00 budget.   Netflix seems to be on the cusp of changing this.  They did a good job with The Virgin River And Sweet Magnolia series (a several characters were race bent) and Shonda Rhimes is adapting the Bridgerton romance series (race-bending some characters as well ) for Netflix.

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by DearEvette