Race & Ethnicity On TV

[In2You]

Latino is not a race. Most of these "white passing" ones are just white. Spaniards are white people. The latino parent usually has a high percentage of Spanish blood in them. 

 

As far as Alexandra Shipp she did get alot of heat for playing Aaliyah. And these Hollywood casting knows the different between a biracial woman and a Black woman. They will just constantly choose the woman closer to whiteness. 

[Scarlett45]

21 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I mean.... he is phenotypically white passing and apparently good enough talent wise for the role and yet it his friggin' name is the impediment.  How do you even parse that level of fuckery?

The Sheen brothers did this, isnt Emilio the only one who went by Estavez(their legal name?). Also Lea Michele doesn’t use her legal last name because people told her it was hard to pronounce and too ethnic. 
 

But look at Jenna Ushkowitz- who’s legal last name doesn’t correspond with her ethnicity because she’s adopted, maybe because it’s obvious she wasn’t encouraged to use a stage name (or she was and said no). 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

isnt Emilio the only one who went by Estavez(their legal name?).

No. It was mentioned up thread that Ramon, and their sister (name is escaping me), and one more sibling, I think, use Estevez.

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, Enigma X said:

When it is a fictional person, I have no issue with it. Actually when it is a biracial person with coloring close to the person that is being portrayed, I don't have a problem with it. I have no problem with black people not from the USA playing African Americans. I just think to some degree that by having a person portray a real person shades lighter (or darker) is reinforcing that one is not good enough. 

Most African Americans (and other groups of African descent) have close (siblings/parents) family members who run the gamut of the color scale and even hair texture scale. So seeing that in TV and movies does not cause me to bat an eye.

I also realize that I fall into the "you can't please all of the people any of the time" category.

Yeah I have no problem with black people from across the diaspora play Black American characters. I think the sitcoms of the 90s did a great job with this (the hey day of black sitcoms in my opinion). 
 

My problem with only hiring light skinned black people to fill EVERY black role is that the bias of colorism causes NO people of deeper skin to be represented in media. And I also get annoyed if they make every black person with less melanin biracial. Not all light skinned black people are biracial! Again, if we got more actual representation these miscasting wouldn’t be so annoying and harmful to performers of color. 

7 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No. It was mentioned up thread that Ramon, and their sister (name is escaping me), and one more sibling, I think, use Estevez.

Thank you. 

[Mabinogia]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

My problem with only hiring light skinned black people to fill EVERY black role is that the bias of colorism causes NO people of deeper skin to be represented in media. And I also get annoyed if they make every black person with less melanin biracial. Not all light skinned black people are biracial! Again, if we got more actual representation these miscasting wouldn’t be so annoying and harmful to performers of color. 

It is terrible because it's like, you have to be black but not too black, but if you're not black enough you have to be bi-racial. As if it wasn't hard enough for a Black actor to get a good role they have to also be the "right shade"? UGH

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

It is terrible because it's like, you have to be black but not too black, but if you're not black enough you have to be bi-racial. As if it wasn't hard enough for a Black actor to get a good role they have to also be the "right shade"? UGH

Yup. Awful. And then making all the light skinned black people biracial, it has “tragic mulatto” written all over it. 
 

Jennifer Beals has spent most of her career playing roles where a character is passing (which I get, because she does pass in a lot of circumstances), it wasn’t until the L word that they let the woman just “BE”. 
 

Colorism is a huge problem on tv. 

[Bastet]

37 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No. It was mentioned up thread that Ramon, and their sister (name is escaping me), and one more sibling, I think, use Estevez.

Right - Ramón*, Renée, and Emilio all use Estevez, only Charlie (whose birth name is Carlos) uses Sheen as a stage name.   But Charlie went by Carlos Estevez for one project, Machete Kills in 2013.  And Ramón went by Sheen for a few years in the '80s, but before and after that has always been billed as Estevez.

*Ramón is named after his father; that's Martin Sheen's birth name.

[Lugal]

On 7/14/2020 at 11:46 PM, biakbiak said:

Cameron came up through modeling which tends to not care about people going by their given names but throughout her career tons of people have expressed surprise that she is half Cuban regardless of her name.

Modeling is basically all about the looks (not that there aren't racial problems there) sometimes an ethnically ambiguous look can help.  And many models do adopt a stage name.

People get weird about names anyway.  I have a family member whose name is Gabriel and they still occasionally get Spanish-language stuff in the mail, despite the name coming from Germany (I chalk that up to disinterested bureaucrats).

On 7/15/2020 at 7:07 AM, methodwriter85 said:

Then we go into the Lou Diamond Phillips question- is it okay for a POC who can't pass for white but can pass as a variety of ethnicities to play POC roles that don't align with their background? He's Filipino with some Scottish and Native American blood and famously played the Latino Ritchie Valens. I have a niece who looks kind of ambiguous and she was told that her look is "hot" because she can pass as different ethnicities. 

I remember when Windtalkers came out (and ignoring for now the fact that Nicholas Cage was the lead) I knew [not many but] a few Navajos who were annoyed that Adam Beach (Ojibwa) was playing a Navajo.

[DearEvette]

I know I mentioned it briefly upthread, but I really do recommend The Old Guard now showing on Netflix.  It is an action movie based on a comic book about a group of immortal warriors who have found each other and banded together over the centuries.  It is diversely cast.  Charlize Theron plays the main character, but she is basically the 'I'm to old for this shit' leader type (supposedly over 6,000 years old).  Kiki Layne is the newest immortal, a current Marine who acts second lead and as the audience surrogate who is just finding who these people are and how she must accept her fate.  She is a nice book-end to the Charlize's character because they represent two very different perspectives on their situation.

Also part of their band is a pair of men who fought against each other in the crusades (one Christian and one Muslim) who fell in love and have been together all this time.  There is another one of their band, (in the comics she is Japanese, but in the film the actress is Korean) who also reps as LGBTQ as we learn later.  Chiwetel Ejifor is also cast in a pivotal role.

The film is directed by Gina Prince-Bythewood a black woman. 

The storyline is well done, the character beats are thoughtful and poignant.  The storytelling is excellent.  And the fight choreography is excellent.  I tend to be a little numb to fight scenes in movies and don't really pay attention, but these were impressive.  The movie spends a lot of time both telling you and showing you how tight and close-knit  these warriors are. They had to be to have been fighting together for a couple thousand years.  But it is the fight scenes, imo, that really bring that home.  Whoever choreo'd them need an award.  They make you really feel like you are watching people who have been fighting as a team, watching each other's backs for over 1,000 years.  They are a cohesive and a well oiled machine.  They just look like competent, efficient fighters.  Very fun to watch.

Edited July 16, 2020 by DearEvette

[Scarlett45]

On 7/15/2020 at 9:07 AM, methodwriter85 said:

Then we go into the Lou Diamond Phillips question- is it okay for a POC who can't pass for white but can pass as a variety of ethnicities to play POC roles that don't align with their background? He's Filipino with some Scottish and Native American blood and famously played the Latino Ritchie Valens. I have a niece who looks kind of ambiguous and she was told that her look is "hot" because she can pass as different ethnicities. 

In this arena I understand that POC actors are trying to make a living, and will take the roles offered to them. I blame the system more than the actors trying to make it. 

My cousin is a working actress (theatre mostly) and there’s no reason she shouldn’t have a Tony if we were to go on talent. Her little boy is the SPLITTING imagine of Vin Diesel. If he wants to be a performer too his ethnically ambiguous looks will help him (we are black). 
 

Again- this wouldn’t be a problem if there were more roles for people of color and POC actors didn’t have to fight for scraps just to be able to work. 

On 7/15/2020 at 9:47 AM, DearEvette said:

If it is a real person, then there are a bunch of delicate identity politics in play that lead to a lot of hurt feelings.  If it is a fictional person, then change the fictional persons ethnicity to match the actors.  I get as an actor to not want to be pigeon-holed because of ethnicity and some of that is not on the actor (i mean, some of it can be...), but mostly that is on the system that forces these sorts of decisions. 

I agree with you. 

[galaxygirl76]

On 7/15/2020 at 12:58 AM, aradia22 said:

BUT, why shouldn't those actors who pass as solely Caucasian play white parts? Are Martin Sheen's movies/TV shows different if his name in the credits is Ramon Estevez? How many people even pay attention to the credits? Did anyone question Emilio's presence in the whitest teen movies of the 80's?

I believe the Estevez/Sheen family is considered Caucasian due to Martin's father being Spanish and his mother being Irish.

[Trini]

Several trades have picked up this story, but I'll just post the source, which is Anjelika Washington's instagram. In which she shares about her experience with the 'painting down' practice which still happens today:

 

This wasn't on her current show. She plays a heroine on DC Universe/CW's Stargirl.

I also remember Jada Pinkett Smith talking about this when she was on Gotham.

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

Several trades have picked up this story, but I'll just post the source, which is Anjelika Washington's instagram. In which she shares about her experience with the 'painting down' practice which still happens today:

 

This wasn't on her current show. She plays a heroine on DC Universe/CW's Stargirl.

I also remember Jada Pinkett Smith talking about this when she was on Gotham.

Damn. I have no words. I don’t believe it’s hard to find black stunt doubles in LA- it’s LA!! Where performers FLOCK to work. 

[peachmangosteen]

I was thinking the same thing! That person really expected people to buy that there were just no black stunt doubles in fucking LA in 2017 lol.

[possibilities]

When someone says "you should be grateful to be here," everything after that point, as well as before it, is tainted. They should be grateful to have her, presumably that's why people hire someone, i.e. because they recognize that person's presence as an asset to the project. I hope whoever said that to her is outed by name and kicked out of their union and never works again, but I realize that's naive and also that I'm turning into a raving bitch. But seriously, whoever said that should be grateful to be here, because clearly they do not know how to do their job and are an asshole besides.

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, possibilities said:

When someone says "you should be grateful to be here," everything after that point, as well as before it, is tainted.

Not to mention it has nothing to do at all with what Anjelika was saying. She was just surprised that they couldn't find a stunt double that was even remotely her double. Doesn't mean she wasn't grateful to be there, which makes that comment totally "black people should just be happy to have jobs".  So much hate!

[aradia22]

Quote

I was thinking the same thing! That person really expected people to buy that there's just no black stunt doubles in fucking LA in 2017 lol.

I mean, I don't know anything about the stunt double world. Maybe it's really exclusionary and there are only a small number of black women working. But that's when you recognize that there's a problem and do something else. Reach out to boxers and MMA fighters who might not have ever considered working in the stunt industry and see if they would be open to the job. And then work to be more welcoming to new talent so this is not a problem in the future. Basically, when the next step is blackface, you've made a mistake and you need to reverse course and try again.

Replace stunt double with director, cinematographer, screenwriter, etc. TPTB look over the hiring pool, don't see what they're looking for, and think that the job is done. (Though how much do you want to bet that they never actually looked for a black stunt double?) They need to start understanding that finding the right people for the job is PART OF THEIR JOBS.

There was some chatter about Rihanna having a white stunt double for this scene. You can clearly tell that the body changes at some points. Now I'm wondering if they sent her to get a spray tan before shooting. 

[Mabinogia]

26 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Basically, when the next step is blackface, you've made a mistake and you need to reverse course and try again.

Pretty much this. 

[Scarlett45]

I’m watching P-Valley on Starz (it’s now a full forum), and I can tell there are black women in the writers room- and black women with knowledge of the gulf coast/creole culture. The first time a character was called “red bone” I CRINGED but it was authentic. 

[phoenics]

19 hours ago, Trini said:

Several trades have picked up this story, but I'll just post the source, which is Anjelika Washington's instagram. In which she shares about her experience with the 'painting down' practice which still happens today:

 

This wasn't on her current show. She plays a heroine on DC Universe/CW's Stargirl.

I also remember Jada Pinkett Smith talking about this when she was on Gotham.

I'm going to bed.  This is the most infuriating sh!t ever - and the comments on the Variety article I pulled up when I searched on this were even worse.  People literally agreeing with the producer.

The producer needs to be identified - there couldn't have been THAT many white female producers on that tv show she was on in 2017.  I hope twitter finds her and drags her racist behind to hell where she belongs.

[In2You]

The only young light skinned Black actress I can name really getting big roles is Storm Reid. The rest are all biracial. It's not just colorism it's also featurism too. And even sometimes when they hire someone more brown they'll still go with the biracial girl like Laura Harrier or Kylie Bunbury and we're just supposed to accept it.

[DearEvette]

This Vanity Fair article about the now fired showrunner of Hawaii Five-O and MacGyver and Magnum PI was posted in the Harvey Weinstein thread because he was fired for being and abusive asshole.  But since his assholery also involved both gender and racial bias I thought it was appropriate to post it here.  The article also revisits  Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park leaving H50  over pay parity but given their race as the two highest profile actors on the show who happened to be of Asian descent, of course race comes into their interaction with him as well. 

And harkening back to a discussion upthread about the glass ceiling in the writers room this quote in particular jumped out at me:

Quote

"Two Magnum P.I. sources say that, a couple of years back, Lenkov took a dislike to the CBS comedies The Neighborhood, about a white family moving into a predominantly Black community, and Happy Together, about a Black couple who suddenly find themselves living with a pop star. These sources say episodes of both programs were often viewed in the writers room as staffers gathered to watch Magnum P.I. together. One of the sources, an Afro-Latina writer, said that when Happy Together concluded, Lenkov told her, “Get used to it. That’s the kind of shit you’re going to be writing on.”

The whole article is worth a read because it details once again the toxic culture that has been exposed over and over again st CBS. (Hello, Bull!)

[methodwriter85]

10 hours ago, In2You said:

The only young light skinned Black actress I can name really getting big roles is Storm Reid. The rest are all biracial. It's not just colorism it's also featurism too. And even sometimes when they hire someone more brown they'll still go with the biracial girl like Laura Harrier or Kylie Bunbury and we're just supposed to accept it.

Coincidentally though Storm Reid is playing a girl with a white father on Euphoria. She and Zendaya make pretty believable sisters.

[Blergh]

16 hours ago, In2You said:

The only young light skinned Black actress I can name really getting big roles is Storm Reid. The rest are all biracial. It's not just colorism it's also featurism too. And even sometimes when they hire someone more brown they'll still go with the biracial girl like Laura Harrier or Kylie Bunbury and we're just supposed to accept it.

Forgive my ignorance but how can someone of African-American descent who is light-skinned NOT be biracial with some European ancestry albeit not of recent or confirmed lineage?

[UnoAgain]

20 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Forgive my ignorance but how can someone of African-American descent who is light-skinned NOT be biracial with some European ancestry albeit not of recent or confirmed lineage?

Well.. They can have some mixed ancestry.. But bi-racial means having one non-black parent....  I always figured the reason they go the bi-racial route was to squeeze in one more ( usually better known)  white parent

To be honest this colorism thing gets me too... Tho for me its cuz there are so few black guys on tv who look like me... Now its no where near as harmful as what's been done to darker skinned/ More African features ladies.. Who've been shut out or ignored.. But while not in any way a majority there are a number of dudes out there like me.. Be it mixed race like me or just lighter complexion  who thru casting are subtle told we aren't what blk men should look like... Such a complex issue... Sigh

[xaxat]

On 7/19/2020 at 9:14 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I’m watching P-Valley on Starz (it’s now a full forum), and I can tell there are black women in the writers room- and black women with knowledge of the gulf coast/creole culture. The first time a character was called “red bone” I CRINGED but it was authentic. 

A couple of weeks ago, I was watching one of Guy Fieri's road shows. In one segment the chef of the restaurant was a light skinned POC. Guy introduced him by saying, "Your actual name is Mike, but everybody here calls you Red Bone!" 

My immediate thought was "Did he actually say what I think he said?" Then I realized that he probably had no idea what the phase referred to. And his crew didn't either. Because for anyone familiar with the word, it came across as a seriously awkward moment.

In other news, Fox News Staff Erupts Over Network Racism: Bosses ‘Created a White Supremacist Cell’

I know, you are all shocked. (I gotta admit, my first thought was, Fox News has Black staffers?"

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Blergh said:

Forgive my ignorance but how can someone of African-American descent who is light-skinned NOT be biracial with some European ancestry albeit not of recent or confirmed lineage?

“Bi-racial” in standard USA colloquiums means “two parents of different races”. There are tons of light skinned black people (like myself, I look like a fatter less pretty Meghan Markle) who have TWO black parents (I have two black parents). No one in the world would consider me biracial although I look like a lot of biracial people. It’s like saying black people are only worth being represented if they are one generation away from whiteness and that’s not okay.

 

Again I’m not taking away the struggles of colorism and the fact that actors with more melanin rarely get the option to be represented AT ALL.

 

1 hour ago, UnoAgain said:

Well.. They can have some mixed ancestry.. But bi-racial means having one non-black parent....  I always figured the reason they go the bi-racial route was to squeeze in one more ( usually better known)  white parent

To be honest this colorism thing gets me too... Tho for me its cuz there are so few black guys on tv who look like me... Now its no where near as harmful as what's been done to darker skinned/ More African features ladies.. Who've been shut out or ignored.. But while not in any way a majority there are a number of dudes out there like me.. Be it mixed race like me or just lighter complexion  who thru casting are subtle told we aren't what blk men should look like... Such a complex issue... Sigh

Yup. I know exactly where you’re coming from. 

6 minutes ago, xaxat said:

In one segment the chef of the restaurant was a light skinned POC. Guy introduced him by saying, "Your actual name is Mike, but everybody here calls you Red Bone!" 

My immediate thought was "Did he actually say what I think he said?" Then I realized that he probably had no idea what the phase referred to. And his crew didn't either. Because for anyone familiar with the word, it came across as a seriously awkward moment.

My jaw is on the DAMN floor! No!!!

[Neurochick]

18 hours ago, In2You said:

The only young light skinned Black actress I can name really getting big roles is Storm Reid. The rest are all biracial. It's not just colorism it's also featurism too. And even sometimes when they hire someone more brown they'll still go with the biracial girl like Laura Harrier or Kylie Bunbury and we're just supposed to accept it.

Actually I didn't know Laura Harrier or Kylie Bunbury were biracial until I googled them.  I look more biracial than either of them and I have two black parents.

[Scarlett45]

11 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Actually I didn't know Laura Harrier or Kylie Bunbury were biracial until I googled them.  I look more biracial than either of them and I have two black parents.

Yeah I get what @In2You is saying above. Often when they decide to hire a black actress who can’t pass the brown paper bag test, they are damn sure she is as close as possible to the Eurocentric standard of beauty in other ways (hair texture, facial features etc). 
 

Again- Laura and Kylie are beautiful women (I’m not super familiar with their acting so I can’t comment), but it’s the fact that these are (for the most part) the ONLY kind of black women that get leading roles & representation is a problem. 

[Blergh]

Do I find it impossible to believe that the frequently boorish and condescending Mr. Fieri could have possibly crossed the line to have actually been racist towards his fellow chef named Mike? Nope! 

If this person named Mike truly wanted that tag to be out there  beyond his clique, then I believe that HE would have said something like 'Yeah, my name's Mike but I'd prefer being called 'Red Bone'! But that's NOT what happened.

[In2You]

5 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Actually I didn't know Laura Harrier or Kylie Bunbury were biracial until I googled them.  I look more biracial than either of them and I have two black parents.

I knew Laura was biracial from the time I saw her on One Life to Live. Biracial doesn't equal lightskinned and I've seen quite a few biracials with her look. I could tell Kylie was mixed too with her loose hair and angular features. 

[Neurochick]

Just now, In2You said:

I knew Laura was biracial from the time I saw her on One Life to Live. Biracial doesn't equal lightskinned and I've seen quite a few biracials with her look. I could tell Kylie was mixed too with her loose hair and angular features. 

But I've seen black people with two black parents with those same features.

 

[Scarlett45]

4 hours ago, Blergh said:

Do I find it impossible to believe that the frequently boorish and condescending Mr. Fieri could have possibly crossed the line to have actually been racist towards his fellow chef named Mike? Nope! 

If this person named Mike truly wanted that tag to be out there  beyond his clique, then I believe that HE would have said something like 'Yeah, my name's Mike but I'd prefer being called 'Red Bone'! But that's NOT what happened.

I don’t know Guy Fieri (duh) I met him once at an event, he was very gregarious.
 

I can believe that Guy didn’t get it, and I could also believe he did get it, and thought he was funny. 

[aradia22]

Quote

Often when they decide to hire a black actress who can’t pass the brown paper bag test, they are damn sure she is as close as possible to the Eurocentric standard of beauty in other ways (hair texture, facial features etc). 

I hate having these conversations sometimes because it can easily sound like phrenology and eugenics. But yeah, if you're looking for it, it's almost impossible to ignore. High cheekbones, small, pointy noses, heart-shaped faces, full but not too full or wide lips, etc. Basically, it's like when people put pictures of all the female cartoon characters together and compare them to all the male cartoon characters and you can really see the lack of variation between them and the lack of deviation from the dominant beauty ideal. I think it's more obvious when you look at a country like South Korea with the prevalence of plastic surgery and note how almost all the popular cosmetic surgeries make women look whiter. At some point, people who are denying the enforcement of these white beauty standards are being willfully ignorant. 

Is "redbone" a regional term? I only know of the singer Martha Redbone. I don't know if that's her real name or a stage name reclaiming the word. 

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

Is "redbone" a regional term? I only know of the singer Martha Redbone. I don't know if that's her real name or a stage name reclaiming the word. 

I think it has a specific connotation in Louisiana because there are parts where concentrated groups of people who are an ethnic mixture of white, black and Native American.

But I know the term has proliferated throughout the south to mean a very light skinned black person with red undertones (as distinct from the term 'High Yella' also used to describe a biracial or light skinned black person but with yellow undertones) and used by a certain generation of aunties. The term migrated north with the Great Migrations.  My own family originally migrated  from Alabama and Georgia and my grandmother once told us she was called a redbone which made sense because she was very light skinned with the red undertones and even had red hair and freckles. 

I could definitely see it being still be used in the P-Valley series that takes place in the Mississippi Delta region.

Edited July 22, 2020 by DearEvette

[possibilities]

Trevor Noah has a white/German father, and I always forget he does. He has talked about how in South Africa he was mixed and in the USA he's Black.

Joy Reid's new show on MSNBC has been airing for 2 nights, and watching her interviewees congratulate her and say how proud they are of her is in one way nice but in another way it makes me so depressed. She's under so much pressure (she's talked about this) to represent. I like her, I watched her show on the weekends and I'm thrilled she's got a prime time weekday gig now, but it's so obvious that she can't just do her show, she also has to navigate the "we're counting on you to prove something by succeeding" and "don't let everyone down" problem.

 

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I only know of the singer Martha Redbone.

I was going to say, "Remember that 'Come and Get Your Love' song?  The band was called Redbone," before I thought about just how old it is and realized, no, you wouldn't.

[Trini]

More on the push to have more diversity behind the scenes at Variety: 'Why Black Hollywood Wants More Representation in the Hair and Makeup Department' 

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

I was going to say, "Remember that 'Come and Get Your Love' song?  The band was called Redbone," before I thought about just how old it is and realized, no, you wouldn't.

That song was on the Guardians of the Galaxy soundtrack. 

[DearEvette]

There is a nice LA Times article about Shalita Grant who stars in the current season 3 of the HBOMax show Search Party.  Apparently her performance on that is that is being lauded.  I have liked her since her days on NCIS:NOLA. She and CCH Pounder were the reasons I watched the show and when she left it coincided with the arrival of Vanessa Ferlito whose character, imo, was just unwatchable.   So I stopped watching it.  I often wondered why she left the show and this article talks about it.  Not surprising given the recent revelations about what goes on on some CBS shows.  But with the added fuckery of hair & make up woes.
 

Quote

 

“In theater, it’s us against the problem. We all come into the room knowing there are going to be problems, and we all know that we’re going to solve them together. In TV, the relationship to problems is, ‘Whose fault is it? Heads will roll!’” she says, shrieking like a comically irate producer. “Nobody wants their head to roll. It takes forever for people to solve problems, because nobody wants to take responsibility.”

Without dwelling on the details, Grant describes an array of problems on the show involving race, gender and “stupid ... actor [expletive].” (Showrunner Brad Kern was accused of creating a hostile work environment and replaced in 2018.) She says the climate was so toxic, she almost left after Season 3. ...

“I came back and I was like, ‘I ain’t taking this ... no more.’ I found joy, and my standards are higher,” she adds, her voice breaking as she recalls the experience. “I am letting you know now, if you don’t want me here, if I’m just being tolerated, I’m leaving. Because I want to go where I’m celebrated, not where I’m tolerated.”

As it is for many Black actors, especially in TV where the grueling pace of production requires near-constant styling, poor experiences with hair on set were an ongoing source of frustration and demoralization for Grant. She has spoken about the extensive damage the producer-mandated styling wrought on her naturally curly hair and the way the show “decimated... my self-image.”

 

 

[Neurochick]

16 hours ago, DearEvette said:

But I know the term has proliferated throughout the south to mean a very light skinned black person with red undertones (as distinct from the term 'High Yella' also used to describe a biracial or light skinned black person but with yellow undertones) and used by a certain generation of aunties. The term migrated north with the Great Migrations.  My own family originally migrated  from Alabama and Georgia and my grandmother once told us she was called a redbone which made sense because she was very light skinned with the red undertones and even had red hair and freckles. 

I used to get cat called "red" or "redbone" a lot, when I was in my 20's.  Also Malcolm X's street name (before Islam) was "Detroit Red."

Detroit Red and Chicago Red (aka Redd Foxx)

Edited July 22, 2020 by Neurochick

[Trini]

5 hours ago, DearEvette said:

As it is for many Black actors, especially in TV where the grueling pace of production requires near-constant styling, poor experiences with hair on set were an ongoing source of frustration and demoralization for Grant. She has spoken about the extensive damage the producer-mandated styling wrought on her naturally curly hair and the way the show “decimated... my self-image.”

Ugh - 'Will this job ruin my hair?' isn't something that actors should have to worry about! Especially in show business where one's appearance is part of the job.

One of my first concerns about the new (Black) Batwoman was about how they'll handle her hair; because the hairstylist situation is not great in Vancouver (where they film) by many accounts.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Trini

[UnoAgain]

26 minutes ago, Trini said:

Ugh - 'Will this job ruin my hair?' isn't something that actors should have to worry about! Especially in show business where one's appearance in part of the job.

One of my first concerns about the new (Black) Batwoman was about how they'll handle her hair; because the hairstylist situation is not great in Vancouver (where they film) by many accounts.

Yeah my confidence isn't particularly high.. That show can't even get Kara's hair right... Like I said before the name change... They need to reach out to the black lightning staff and poach a few ppl from all the departments to come to Vancouver... 

On another note.. Are there really no proper stylists in Vancouver?  I don't actually remember going there but I know I did as I've got a pic of me and my dad at some old grizzlies games but I was a wee lil one back then.. And most of my Canadian memories are from the west Indian tinged Toronto where my both my parents have relatives and I'd go for caribana... But as long as Vancouver has been a spot for TV and for me it feels like it's been like 20 years or so since the boom of genre tv shows setting up shop out yonder.. How have they not found ppl to handle this yet? 

[Bastet]

1 minute ago, UnoAgain said:

But as long as Vancouver has been a spot for TV and for me it feels like it's been like 20 years or so since the boom of genre tv shows setting up shop out yonder.. How have they not found ppl to handle this yet? 

Because they don't bother.  Look at how long L.A. has been the center of film and television production, and there are still a woeful number of hair stylists and make-up artists who know what they're doing with black hair and skin.

[Luckylyn]

In my opinion, no hair stylist makeup artist who doesn’t have the skill to do all hair and make up a variety of skin tones should be hired for tv/film.  People in those positions should be highly skilled.  They are treating actors/actresses Of color as afterthoughts.

[Neurochick]

2 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

In my opinion, no hair stylist makeup artist who doesn’t have the skill to do all hair and make up a variety of skin tones should be hired for tv/film.  People in those positions should be highly skilled.  They are treating actors/actresses Of color as afterthoughts.

This is true 100%.  I had a friend who had a job in a small town in Washington.  This was in the early 90's and she wondered who would do her hair, that was styled in a wave nouveau.  She found a stylist, a white woman who knew how to do black hair.  The wave nouveau, at that time cost about $80.

I also had a friend, a white hairstylist in Alabama who would attend classes to learn about the different types of relaxers for black hair.  She was like, "I want to make MONEY, and if all I do are white girl's hair, I'm not gonna make shit."

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

In my opinion, no hair stylist makeup artist who doesn’t have the skill to do all hair and make up a variety of skin tones should be hired for tv/film.  People in those positions should be highly skilled.  They are treating actors/actresses Of color as afterthoughts.

They really should. 

56 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

This is true 100%.  I had a friend who had a job in a small town in Washington.  This was in the early 90's and she wondered who would do her hair, that was styled in a wave nouveau.  She found a stylist, a white woman who knew how to do black hair.  The wave nouveau, at that time cost about $80.

I also had a friend, a white hairstylist in Alabama who would attend classes to learn about the different types of relaxers for black hair.  She was like, "I want to make MONEY, and if all I do are white girl's hair, I'm not gonna make shit."

That's the part I don't get whether their movie stylists or work in a salon. Why wouldn't you know how to do as many different styles and types of hair? That's your job and your income. The more you know the more you can offer and the more customers that come and more money. Isn't that the point? A mechanic doesn't learn to just fix Fords.

[Bastet]

25 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That's the part I don't get whether their movie stylists or work in a salon. Why wouldn't you know how to do as many different styles and types of hair? That's your job and your income. The more you know the more you can offer and the more customers that come and more money. Isn't that the point? A mechanic doesn't learn to just fix Fords.

I'm a white woman with thick curly hair (which I will not straighten), and I have to put in work to find those who know how to cut it, let alone style it.  And I'm in Los Angeles, not Podunk.

It is appalling how many folks walking around with cosmetology licenses aren't properly trained on textured hair of any kind.  I will not go to anyone who doesn't have curly hair herself; I learned this by the time I was a teen (my curly hair comes from my dad, and my mom is the one who took me to hair appointments; she didn't know what she didn't know) and in the 30+ years since I have still not become willing to just hope anyone with scissors is among those who've actually managed to learn the craft in full, not just a segment of it.

So I can just imagine how black female actors, especially, about to be evaluated by millions on their looks, and specifically their hair, once they step before the camera - not to mention worried about the potential damage to their hair - feel upon walking into the trailer and seeing a sea of white.  One shouldn't need to have a particular hair and skin in order to know its needs - that's the damn job, as you said - but that's the current scenario all too often, so the lack of black hair stylists and make-up artists on sets is problematic on a practical level beyond general diversity concerns.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Bastet said:

It is appalling how many folks walking around with cosmetology licenses aren't properly trained on textured hair of any kind.  I will not go to anyone who doesn't have curly hair herself; I learned this by the time I was a teen (my curly hair comes from my dad, and my mom is the one who took me to hair appointments; she didn't know what she didn't know) and in the 30+ years since I have still not become willing to just hope anyone with scissors is among those who've actually managed to learn the craft in full, not just a segment of it.

This certainly raises the question of how much of the blame falls on cosmetology schools and state licensing boards for not ensuring that hair stylists have some familiarity with different textures. Of course that’s still no excuse for many who have the resources to learn on their own and simply choose not to. 
 

Bustle did an interesting story on the subject last year. Why Can't Every Hairstylist, Regardless Of Race, Work With 4C Hair?

[Trini]

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

Because they don't bother.  Look at how long L.A. has been the center of film and television production, and there are still a woeful number of hair stylists and make-up artists who know what they're doing with black hair and skin.

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