Race & Ethnicity On TV

[JBC344]

4 hours ago, Sparger Springs said:

Amanda Waller in the comics is a 300 lb dark skinned black lady.   We never ever see that representation of black women. 

Isn't that like throwing out the baby with the bathwater?  I don't think because Viola Davis isn't 300 lbs that discredits everything else about the character. 

[Kromm]

16 hours ago, Sparger Springs said:

There was a study done that said when people were told a person was biracial they would be rated more attractive than if they were told they were monoracial. It didn't matter the complexion.  https://sites.duke.edu/dukeresearch/2016/08/10/beauty-is-in-the-ear-of-the-beholder-too/

Basically we are giving people exotic points.  Oh her mommy is white, she is so pretty. Same girl 2 black parent she allright. 

I agree there's allure to the exotic, and I see that study is directly about African-American mixes (or perceived/claimed mixes), but I think you see that manifesting in our society increasingly between white and multiracial too. Perhaps not as absolutely as "all black" (a loaded term if I've ever heard one) vs. multiracial, but I don't think it's a coincidence that so many actresses and models who are multiracial are on those most beautiful lists so often.  And I think mixes like half-Asian and half-Hispanic (another loaded term I know since only some Hispanics, because they are already a mix, show aboriginal-American traits) are likely getting rated higher on that scale too these days. I mean they may not be to everyone's taste, but what does this list have in common?

Selena Gomez, Jessica Alba, Vanessa Hudgens, Keanu Reeves, Christina Aguilera, Adriana Lima, Teri Hatcher, Alexis Bledel, Demi Lovato, Olivia Munn, Chad Michael Murray, Shannon Elizabeth, Kristin Kreuk, Phoebe Cates, Jennifer Tilly, Lindsay Price, Sarah Shahi, Meg Tilly, Maggie Q, Shay Mitchell, Chloe Bennet, Kari Wuhrer, Rhona Mitra, Catherine Bell, Nicole Scherzinger... okay I could probably keep going, but that's enough for now.

They're all white mixed with something else and at some point (some when they were younger admittedly) been front and center on these "who's hottest" lists--note I've taken part-white/part-black mixes out of that list just to point out the phenomenon of finding appeal in the slightly exotic goes beyond taking a person who otherwise might be considered black and mixing in something else. So we've got a bunch of European/Indigenous-American mixes (not just the classic "Indian", but some of those with darker skinned Hispanic ancestors as well), some part-Asians, some part-Middle Eastern descent, etc. 

And I notice that study talked about African-Americans claiming to be part Native American. I know the psychology of those claims are another sticky wicket. But white people do it too. Ask Angelia Jolie (who after someone did some digging they found out she MIGHT have a single Huron ancestor WAY back in the 17th century, although she'd been claiming Iriquios ancestry (and a much bigger piece than the sliver that would have come from a 17th century ancestor). 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Kromm

[BoogieBurns]

@Kromm I can't find out anything about Chad Michael Murray's race. What is he mixed with? I thought he was standard issue white guy.

[Epeolatrix]

Quote

They're all white mixed with something else

How about "they're all mixed"? Looking mostly white doesn't mean you necessarily identify yourself that way and I don't think we should assume someone else's choices.

Quote

I can't find out anything about Chad Michael Murray's race. What is he mixed with? I thought he was standard issue white guy.

Chad Michael Murray. Ethnicity: English, Irish, Polish, German, Swiss-German. There is an internet rumor that one of Chad’s grandmothers was Japanese. This is not accurate.

[Kromm]

On 8/29/2016 at 1:52 PM, Violet Impulse said:

How about "they're all mixed"? Looking mostly white doesn't mean you necessarily identify yourself that way and I don't think we should assume someone else's choices.

Chad Michael Murray. Ethnicity: English, Irish, Polish, German, Swiss-German. There is an internet rumor that one of Chad’s grandmothers was Japanese. This is not accurate.

Yeah what I'd read was simply "Asian" and not more specific. It's not inherently unbelievable, but if you've found proof it's false, then we can remove him from the list.

And really I don't need a lecture on self-identification. My point stands that if we were discussing reactions to mixed-race people with part-black-ancestry and how there's an apparent tendency to identify them (wrongly or rightly) as more attractive, that the same holds true to a large extent with people with part-white-ancestry.  People cherry picking and ignoring the context of what was being responded about to find ways to spin things to make them sound offensive is one of the big bombs of even trying to talk about this stuff. I wasn't debating or challenging their self-identification in any way, and yet that's how you chose to spin it. And it didn't serve the discussion to simply talk about them as "mixed", because I was specifically responding to differences between white-mixed and black-mixed. If we can't even use the WORDS and concepts, even if the right context, how the hell is anything every supposed to be talked about?

Edited August 31, 2016 by Kromm

[janie jones]

You guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there was a misunderstanding more than there was spinning.  I think when @Kromm said "white mixed with something else," it was meant as white-mixed-with-something-else, as in multiracial specifically with white being a component, but without that having been made clear enough, even within the context of the post, it was read by @Violet Impulse, as "white, mixed with something else," as in white people who also happen to be part something else.  When I originally read it, it took me a minute, too.

And that's all I have to say about that, because I don't actually want to get involved in this disagreement! :)

Edited August 31, 2016 by janie jones

[ZaldamoWilder]

22 hours ago, janie jones said:

You guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there was a misunderstanding more than there was spinning.  I think when @Kromm said "white mixed with something else," it was meant as white-mixed-with-something-else, as in multiracial specifically with white being a component, but without that having been made clear enough, even within the context of the post, it was read by @Violet Impulse, as "white, mixed with something else," as in white people who also happen to be part something else.  When I originally read it, it took me a minute, too.

And that's all I have to say about that, because I don't actually want to get involved in this disagreement! :)

janie, since you and I aren't arguing, can you help me understand the difference?  

multiracial specifically with white being a component

and

white people who also happen to be part something else

sound like exactly the same thing.     No grease, curiosity.  ;) thanks.

[BoogieBurns]

46 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

multiracial specifically with white being a component

and

white people who also happen to be part something else

I think one sounds more like a white person with a hint of something, and the other is a mixed person with a hint of white. But I'm happy we all misunderstood equally. 

[topanga]

43 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

janie, since you and I aren't arguing, can you help me understand the difference?  

multiracial specifically with white being a component

and

white people who also happen to be part something else

sound like exactly the same thing.     No grease, curiosity.  ;) thanks.

 

22 hours ago, janie jones said:

You guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there was a misunderstanding more than there was spinning.  I think when @Kromm said "white mixed with something else," it was meant as white-mixed-with-something-else, as in multiracial specifically with white being a component, but without that having been made clear enough, even within the context of the post, it was read by @Violet Impulse, as "white, mixed with something else," as in white people who also happen to be part something else.  When I originally read it, it took me a minute, too.

And that's all I have to say about that, because I don't actually want to get involved in this disagreement! :)

At the risk of putting even more words in @Kromm's mouth, the way I understood @Kromm's post was that it referenced people who society-at-large would consider white, and who land roles as "white" characters, even though they are, for example, white-Mexican, white-Cuban, white-Native American, white-Southeast Asian, etc. She (he?) specifically left "black-and-something else" celebrities out of the mix,  "just to point out the phenomenon of finding appeal in the slightly exotic goes beyond taking a person who otherwise might be considered black and mixing in something else."  In other words, white-something else (but not white-black) becomes exotic, too. 

[BoogieBurns]

@topanga I'm under the impression that @Kromm is a "he". Solely based on the Mr. T avatar. 

Edited September 1, 2016 by BoogieBurns

[janie jones]

6 hours ago, topanga said:

 

At the risk of putting even more words in @Kromm's mouth, the way I understood @Kromm's post was that it referenced people who society-at-large would consider white, and who land roles as "white" characters, even though they are, for example, white-Mexican, white-Cuban, white-Native American, white-Southeast Asian, etc. She (he?) specifically left "black-and-something else" celebrities out of the mix,  "just to point out the phenomenon of finding appeal in the slightly exotic goes beyond taking a person who otherwise might be considered black and mixing in something else."  In other words, white-something else (but not white-black) becomes exotic, too. 

@ZaldamoWilder, this is more like what I thought it was misread as, and a better explanation of it.  I thought it was intended as "multiracial with white being one of the races," regardless of how the individual might be perceived.

[Epeolatrix]

When I read "white mixed with something else", I read it as "someone who passes as white even though they have non-white ethnicity as well". I questioned the phrasing because in my personal experience, it most often comes up as a form of erasure (like saying "not Asian enough to count as Asian").

I wasn't cherry-picking to start an argument, I wasn't 'lecturing' you on self-identification, and I was well-aware of your context. My problem was that your exact wording meant something different to you than it did to me. If you'd used 'white-mixed' and 'black-mixed' originally, I would have understood your intent; re-reading it with that hyphen in place did actually change my comprehension.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Violet Impulse
To remove italics lest I appear sarcastic or something.

[phoenics]

I'm now struggling to remember the context that wrought Kromm's comments.  Is it Kromm's assertion that any mixed race person gets higher "attraction" points, regardless of how close to white or black they are?

I don't think I agree - but is that the assertion?

[jhlipton]

On 8/26/2016 at 0:05 PM, Sparger Springs said:

1) I've been thinking about the over representation of biracial actress or  biracial appearing actresses today.  People are so excited about Zendaya being Mary Jane in the new Spider-Man.  Wake me when a woman darker than a brown paper bag gets a major role in a Marvel or DC movie.

2) I was on a gossip site this morning and people were making fun of Simon Biles for picking Zendaya to play her in a future movie about her life. There are very few young dark actresses that are known for her to pick from.

1) You and me both.

2) Lovee Simone (Greenleaf) is young, black, beautiful and talented.

On 8/26/2016 at 10:01 PM, Kromm said:

There's a lot of empirical data around that as a society we consider "mixed" people especially attractive.

That seems to be far more true for women than men. 

[phoenics]

On 9/9/2016 at 9:25 PM, jhlipton said:

That seems to be far more true for women than men. 

Exactly - which illustrates that it's probably people equating lighter-whiter skin/attributes as "feminine", thus darker/stronger features on men are prized as more attractive and whiter features on women are prized as feminine thus attractive.  It still floats under the banner of white supremacy.

[Trini]

'Gwen Stefani’s Kuu Kuu Harajuku Series Brings Her Cultural Appropriation to Nickelodeon' -- this article I think summarizes the issues related to the concept behind the show.

[galax-arena]

So will the other girls actually be allowed to talk this time?

[paulvdb]

TVByTheNumbers has done some articles this week about the different types of tv series on the broadcast networks. One of the articles has two paragraphs about people of color in lead roles:

Quote

Where you’re most likely to find a person of color in a lead role: Non-procedural dramas. Seven of the 11 shows in that category set to air this season — veterans “Empire” and “Scandal” and newcomers “Notorious,” “Still Star-Crossed,” “Pitch,” “Shots Fired” and “Star” — all feature nonwhite actors in lead roles.

Where you’re least likely to: Several places. The four medical dramas and four legal shows on the air this season all boast diverse ensemble casts, but no actor of color is listed first in the credits. The same is true of the three hangout comedies, and only one of 10 comic-book shows on the broadcast nets (NBC’s “Powerless,” starring Vanessa Hudgens) has a nonwhite actor in the lead role.

[xaxat]

CBS is running trailers for their new show Bull, about a consultant who helps pick jurors most likely to be favorable to his clients, criminal defendants. 

At one point, his assistant is explaining how their process works. She gestures to a wall of monitors behind her featuring the photos of potential jurors saying something about picking jurors they want and avoiding those they don't. Cut to medium shot of monitor with the picture of a young, black male.

Fuck you CBS.

[phoenics]

On 9/17/2016 at 3:18 AM, paulvdb said:

TVByTheNumbers has done some articles this week about the different types of tv series on the broadcast networks. One of the articles has two paragraphs about people of color in lead roles:

This relates to a topic of discussion on the Stranger Things show.  Some of us were commenting on how there wasn't enough diversity and then others said that for the time and place the show is set, it would be anachronistic to show more PoC... and then someone countered that arguing realism and anachronism on a show about pocket dimensions, telekinesis, telepathy and monsters felt like a cop out.  

Plus there is the way that they wrote the one black kid on the show - and how he got a lot of hate from fans - but also how they never gave him a PoV - and in one instance had ANOTHER character give his PoV for him... and how the show basically set him up to be hated, even though his actions made the most sense.

But even beyond that, when I thought about it - I realized we missed a huge point in the "diversity" discussion:

Not one of us even considered why they couldn't have cast a black kid as the main kid and family?  Like could Mike have been black?  Thus Nancy and her family could have been black?

Or even Will.  He could have been black, so his mom and brother too.  Or Latino.  Or Asian.

But no... that never crossed our minds, did it?

Even when we were talking about the lack of diversity and increasing it, it never seem to occur to any of us that the ONE black family in town could have been the family the show centered around.

That makes me sad - even when trying to increase diversity or bring it up, we still do it within the bounds of a white supremacy mindset.  It's like we couldn't conceive of anything other than just adding more PoC as sidekicks, friends, or extraneous cops, but the leads?  Le gasp.

[DearEvette]

On 9/17/2016 at 3:18 AM, paulvdb said:

Where you’re most likely to find a person of color in a lead role: Non-procedural dramas. Seven of the 11 shows in that category set to air this season — veterans “Empire” and “Scandal” and newcomers “Notorious,” “Still Star-Crossed,” “Pitch,” “Shots Fired” and “Star” — all feature nonwhite actors in lead roles.

Interesting that most of those mentioned also have POC as creators and/or showrunners.   But credit to Dan Fogelman who created Pitch, also created 'This is Us' which has a black family headed by Sterling K. Brown listed as one of the mains.  Also his first tv show was 'The Neighbors' (man I loved that show!) which featured an Alien family who relocated to earth and picked the bodies they liked best, one of which was a black woman (Toks Olugundoye) and one was an Asian boy (Tim Jo).

[DearEvette]

Dang it!  I might actually watch the Lost In Space reboot they are doing on Netflix.

The first Robinson family member cast was Taylor Russell, as Judy Robinson the oldest daughter.  Taylor is a WOC  (yes, there were people on social media complaining about being PC and casting a "blackwashing" the family Robinson).

But now they've just announced Toby Stephens is cast at her father John Robinson.  I like him in Black Sails. And so now I am intrigued about who they'll cast as the mother.  Someone on Tvline suggested Sharon Leal.  I would totally cosign that casting.

[maraleia]

57 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Dang it!  I might actually watch the Lost In Space reboot they are doing on Netflix.

The first Robinson family member cast was Taylor Russell, as Judy Robinson the oldest daughter.  Taylor is a WOC  (yes, there were people on social media complaining about being PC and casting a "blackwashing" the family Robinson).

But now they've just announced Toby Stephens is cast at her father John Robinson.  I like him in Black Sails. And so now I am intrigued about who they'll cast as the mother.  Someone on Tvline suggested Sharon Leal.  I would totally cosign that casting.

Sharon Leal is a good choice but she is in Vancouver shooting Supergirl right now. I read that the Robinson's were going to be a biracial couple so Taylor's casting is spot on for this to work. In case anyone is interested Toby Stephens is Maggie Smith's son.

[Kromm]

On 9/6/2016 at 0:20 AM, phoenics said:

I'm now struggling to remember the context that wrought Kromm's comments.  Is it Kromm's assertion that any mixed race person gets higher "attraction" points, regardless of how close to white or black they are?

I don't think I agree - but is that the assertion?

Been away from this topic for a while but I will answer this now.  The answer is... "sort of".

That's not meant to be a cop-out. What I mean is that both mixed-black AND mixed-white people seem to be doing pretty well these days in terms of societally-driven beauty assessments.  And by that I mean (as I said before) that we can take a look at successful models, actresses and (as crass as it is) porn-stars, and see who appears to be getting a lot of work, and getting a lot of attention FOR being beautiful (on "Most Beautiful" lists, fashion commentaries, a general awareness of how people talk about them online, etc.). And it's my contention that mixed-race people (of most kinds) tend to get a lot of notice in those areas. Which ultimately may not be that flattering, since it's all physical in nature and doesn't talk about how GOOD they are as a model or actress or porn-star, but that WAS the direction the discussion had gone upthread. The reasoning that "exotic" appeals to whites as well as blacks is also part of this. I think it's become true, even if it wasn't always (or at least wasn't always acknowledged). 

Is there any kind of math about how far or close someone can be from either black or white to be societally/pop-culturally perceived as "more attractive" these days?  I doubt it. I don't think it could ever be that straightforward. We have a general impression that light-skinned black people are thought of as more appealing and exotic, but I don't know if the exact reverse applies (that the darker skinned a part white-person is the more appealing white society might find them). For example, what made Maggie Q so appealing to a lot of people? Her skin tone is fairly light, just a tiny bit caramel colored. Her eyes don't really have a full epicanthic fold. Or Jessica Alba. Aside from the obvious (her figure), I'd feel safe saying people think she has a beautiful face too. But WHY? I mean unless someone is trying to shoehorn her into a traditionally totally "white" role (Susan Storm?), I'd say being exotic is part of her appeal. It's just not linked as closely to a pigment as the light-skinned black thing. Or why is Adriana Lima at the top of the modeling game? It can't JUST be her figure... because she hardly has a lock on a great figure.  The answer is she's just a tad more exotic than many other models... but I guess not so far that she crosses some line into looking totally "ethnic". Or, despite her horrible acting, why did Kristin Kreuk have a career--because she's just a bit exotic looking. But not TOO far, because that's apparently not what people want either.

Taking this WAY back to where I remember this all starting, I'm basically just saying that I'm not all that surprised that mixed-race people get so much work. And if people ARE given "exotic points" (a phrase used upthread) I believe it applies equally across both black and white society and how they perceive people, and applies to both black and white models/actresses/whatevers.

Does any of this invalidate the notion that darker skinned people should be getting more work? Not even a little. To me it's just more about understanding why sometime they don't. Part of it is Hollywood being chicken-shit, but part is that there IS a real basis seemingly in what people want.  Ergo any change likely has to come from the bottom up. Society as a whole likely has to change before those tendencies go away.  And even if the Maggie Qs and Jessica Albas of the world draw some fascination from the "white" side of this... white actresses still get so much more work overall than women of color that a few more "exotic" women getting lots of raves for their beauty is probably not killing the bottom line for someone who looks like, lets say... Gwyneth Paltrow.  That's the inequity illustrated there. The darker skinned women of color have to work even harder because whatever lighter skinned women of color may be getting instead of them is being taken from a much smaller total amount of work in the first place.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Kromm

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

Dang it!  I might actually watch the Lost In Space reboot they are doing on Netflix.

The first Robinson family member cast was Taylor Russell, as Judy Robinson the oldest daughter.  Taylor is a WOC  (yes, there were people on social media complaining about being PC and casting a "blackwashing" the family Robinson).

But now they've just announced Toby Stephens is cast at her father John Robinson.  I like him in Black Sails. And so now I am intrigued about who they'll cast as the mother.  Someone on Tvline suggested Sharon Leal.  I would totally cosign that casting.

Lost in Space is a hard sell for me. I'm struggling to see how it could adequately be anything but a lame name grab of old product.

I personally struggle to wonder why anyone CARES what color The Robinson family is. In fact, frankly I wonder why the heck they aren't ALL black.  I mean they don't have to be, but why the hell not?  Dr. Smith and Don West can still be white (so 1/3 of the cast).  And then if anyone feels the show has to be even MORE non-chalant about race, don't forget that Don West romances Judy Robinson.

[DearEvette]

I had initially heard of it in passing a month or so ago, but it was amidst the all the other reboots etc. etc. that come along and I tend to ignore.

The main thing that makes me actually want to see this is because I love sci fi, I love POC in sci fi -- I would have loved the whole Robinson clan to be black, but I don't mind the idea of them being an IR family since an IR family would look more like mine that a homogeneous one would -- and genuinely like Toby Stephens.  He's got an interesting face and a presence I enjoy.   Whether or not I really tune in will rely on the rest of the cast.  I get attracted to stuff these days based on cast more than premise, honestly.  Just like I totally plan to check out that other new sci fi show on Netflix 'Altered Carbon' solely on the basis of Renee Elise Goldsberry being cast as a main. 

Although I must admit nothing would have enticed me to check it out if it had been re-imagined as a police procedural...

[galax-arena]

Quote

 

I personally struggle to wonder why anyone CARES what color The Robinson family is. In fact, frankly I wonder why the heck they aren't ALL black.  I mean they don't have to be, but why the hell not?  Dr. Smith and Don West can still be white (so 1/3 of the cast).  And then if anyone feels the show has to be even MORE non-chalant about race, don't forget that Don West romances Judy Robinson.

Considering that the show takes place in the future, you'd think it'd make more sense for all of the cast members to be some varying shade of brown and not lily white, anyway. Or at least that the family would be multiracial. So much SF doesn't take into account the prospect of racial mixing in the future. It was a pleasant surprise when I read some children's/middle grade novel about life on a space station and the author went out of his way to mention how most of the people on the space station were either mixed or in multiracial families. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by galax-arena

[Dee]

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

But now they've just announced Toby Stephens is cast at her father John Robinson.  I like him in Black Sails. And so now I am intrigued about who they'll cast as the mother.  Someone on Tvline suggested Sharon Leal.  I would totally cosign that casting.

For the Maureen Robinson, I vote for Retta Sirleaf or Robinne Lee!

[selkie]

On 9/19/2016 at 6:37 AM, phoenics said:

This relates to a topic of discussion on the Stranger Things show.  Some of us were commenting on how there wasn't enough diversity and then others said that for the time and place the show is set, it would be anachronistic to show more PoC... and then someone countered that arguing realism and anachronism on a show about pocket dimensions, telekinesis, telepathy and monsters felt like a cop out.  

You actually have a lot of diversity leeway with 'Midwestern small town in the 80s'. There are plenty of them that are 98% white. There are plenty of them that are 20-50% black- small town factories drew blacks out of the South during the Great Migration just like businesses in bigger cities like Chicago and Detroit did. (My husband grew up in a small town in Michigan that was probably 30% black) Want Hispanic? I can tell you about places where Mexicans started to migrate during the 60s and 70s- someone in the family first came up there for seasonal agriculture work, discovered a town that had job opportunities and otherwise suited them, and brought the family north to live year round. Smaller but visible Asian populations near military bases and colleges. 

Despite what Hollywood assumes about small town America, it's not always a 95% non-Hispanic white place, and it's not anachronistic to have a setting in a small town in 'flyover country' that's more diverse than people first might expect. 

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, selkie said:

You actually have a lot of diversity leeway with 'Midwestern small town in the 80s'. There are plenty of them that are 98% white. There are plenty of them that are 20-50% black- small town factories drew blacks out of the South during the Great Migration just like businesses in bigger cities like Chicago and Detroit did. (My husband grew up in a small town in Michigan that was probably 30% black) Want Hispanic? I can tell you about places where Mexicans started to migrate during the 60s and 70s- someone in the family first came up there for seasonal agriculture work, discovered a town that had job opportunities and otherwise suited them, and brought the family north to live year round. Smaller but visible Asian populations near military bases and colleges. 

Despite what Hollywood assumes about small town America, it's not always a 95% non-Hispanic white place, and it's not anachronistic to have a setting in a small town in 'flyover country' that's more diverse than people first might expect. 

Good to know - because that puts to "anachronism" argument to rest about Stranger Things.  

[Raja]

4 hours ago, Kromm said:

Lost in Space is a hard sell for me. I'm struggling to see how it could adequately be anything but a lame name grab of old product.

I personally struggle to wonder why anyone CARES what color The Robinson family is. In fact, frankly I wonder why the heck they aren't ALL black.  I mean they don't have to be, but why the hell not?  Dr. Smith and Don West can still be white (so 1/3 of the cast).  And then if anyone feels the show has to be even MORE non-chalant about race, don't forget that Don West romances Judy Robinson.

Back to the mixed race discussions since Sharon Leal got thrown into the mix. Does being half Filipino, even if you never portrayed a pinoy or any other ethnice mix as a Blasian on screen mean you are not "all black"

[jhlipton]

I was mildly interested in three new shows and found something they all have in common:  take a look at the leads for The Good Place, This is Us[*],and The Great Indoors.  All three are mostly white with one black male and NO one black women.  Diversity!

[*] In the cast picture for TIU, Susan Kelechi Watson looks mixed at best, but in other pictures, she is black.  Not as dark as her "husband", of course -- don't go crazy!

[Kromm]

14 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I was mildly interested in three new shows and found something they all have in common:  take a look at the leads for The Good Place, This is Us[*],and The Great Indoors.  All three are mostly white with one black male and NO one black women.  Diversity!

[*] In the cast picture for TIU, Susan Kelechi Watson looks mixed at best, but in other pictures, she is black.  Not as dark as her "husband", of course -- don't go crazy!

I have to stick up a bit for The Good Place. Maybe it's casting is not mathematically perfect in terms of race distribution, but are we really going to be that dismissive of a show that's main cast is 50% non-white?  It's a much better average than many shows. And it might even be better than that, because the woman in the far left of the cast photo looks like she might be something else besides standard model Anglo. 

Is it REALLY that fair to gripe that the show has two Asians (I am counting an Indian as an Asian, unless someone takes issue with that), one of each gender, rather than two black people, one of each gender? That seems like really destructive thinking, IMO (and plays right into the feelings many have expressed that it's distressing when "diversity" is automatically equated to just "black").

Edited September 21, 2016 by Kromm

[Minneapple]

Yeah, The Good Place is quite diverse. Just look at that cast photo-- a black guy, a South Asian woman, an East Asian guy. Ted Danson and Kristen Bell get the promos because they're the biggest names in the cast, but the show is far from "mostly white." I would also argue that Chidi is as big a role as Ted Danson's character, and Tahani could get there.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Minneapple

[jhlipton]

I'm saying that black women are rarely counted toward "diversity".  Kudos to The Good Place for having a truly diverse cast.  But are there any new shows (or many old shows) that have a black female lead and not a black male lead? (and D'Arcy Carden ["Janet"] is definitely Anglo.)

Edited September 21, 2016 by jhlipton

[TimetoShine]

Pitch is about to come out. NCIS:NO black female lead started last season.

[DearEvette]

That "anachronistic" discussion about black folks being around in the 80s made me think of that scene in Psych:

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

That "anachronistic" discussion about black folks being around in the 80s made me think of that scene in Psych:

 

 

Me:???????????

Man, I miss that show!

[Kromm]

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I'm saying that black women are rarely counted toward "diversity".  Kudos to The Good Place for having a truly diverse cast.  But are there any new shows (or many old shows) that have a black female lead and not a black male lead? (and D'Arcy Carden ["Janet"] is definitely Anglo.)

You specifically used the term "mostly white" as well, when at worst it's 50% white, so please understand why it sounded like you were not looking close enough at it. I mean you didn't suggest swapping out the black male for a black female, for example--so that's why it reminded me of the discussion of how Asian casting often doesn't get fairly counted (because they were the majority of the diversity with the show).  I can't play Saint here though. I'm 100% positive I've done the same myself in the past.

You are likely totally right that there's some disparity specifically with black women, but I would like to see some stats, if anyone can dig them up, of the number of black women on current major TV shows (lets count network, cable and streaming all... as long as they mainline dramas or comedies rather than stuff like reality, talk, or gameshows) vs. the number of black men. It would be interesting to see if that impression is really true (that black women are the most underrepresented). 

Edited September 22, 2016 by Kromm

[phoenics]

10 hours ago, Kromm said:

You specifically used the term "mostly white" as well, when at worst it's 50% white, so please understand why it sounded like you were not looking close enough at it. I mean you didn't suggest swapping out the black male for a black female, for example--so that's why it reminded me of the discussion of how Asian casting often doesn't get fairly counted (because they were the majority of the diversity with the show).  I can't play Saint here though. I'm 100% positive I've done the same myself in the past.

You are likely totally right that there's some disparity specifically with black women, but I would like to see some stats, if anyone can dig them up, of the number of black women on current major TV shows (lets count network, cable and streaming all... as long as they mainline dramas or comedies rather than stuff like reality, talk, or gameshows) vs. the number of black men. It would be interesting to see if that impression is really true (that black women are the most underrepresented). 

The argument isn't that they're the most underrepresented - it's that their representations are tropes nearly 80% of the time.  And it IS an issue that when we see a black male cast, you likely won't see a black woman cast, and vice versa.  That doesn't happen in the same way with other people of color.  Although, Asians rarely show up at all - a different kind of representation problem.  Both are still subject to the "racially ambiguous" issue too though.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/02/22/467665890/hollywood-has-a-major-diversity-problem-usc-study-finds

Here is the study referenced in the above article:  http://annenberg.usc.edu/pages/~/media/MDSCI/CARDReport FINAL 22216.ashx

The issue though is that the article/publication are still coming through a white lens - even in how they discussed "sexualizing" female characters - it's viewed through the lens of "that sexist" when for black women to be viewed as the "attractive one" - THAT is actually groundbreaking compared to how we are typically portrayed.

[memememe76]

This is US features three black female characters, the wife and two daughters. No Asian people.

[paulvdb]

Of the new shows I've watched there are two Asians in The Good Place that were already mentioned earlier in this thread.  There is also one in Pitch played by Tim Jo (Reggie Jackson from The Neighbors) but his role doesn't look very prominent. Of course that's based only on the pilot. Sometimes characters become more prominent later on, but I'm not counting on it in this case. The diversity in Pitch comes mostly from the black characters with four significant roles (the main character, her father, one of her teammates and that teammate's wife). For non-black diversity there is also Mark Consuelos as the Padres' GM.

[Irlandesa]

9 hours ago, paulvdb said:

Sometimes characters become more prominent later on, but I'm not counting on it in this case. The diversity in Pitch comes mostly from the black characters with four significant roles (the main character, her father, one of her teammates and that teammate's wife). For non-black diversity there is also Mark Consuelos as the Padres' GM.

The father is recurring whereas the agent's assistant is a regular.  I imagine his role will grow as the agent's role does.

Speaking of mixed ethnicities, Mark Paul Gosselaar is partly Asian. His mother is Dutch-Indonesian.   I think it'd be nice to have Pitch work that into his background.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Irlandesa

[jhlipton]

I loved Pitch -- the characters so far are pretty cool, and Kylie Bunbury is gawwww-jeeeus (and can act, which has been a problem -- looking at you, Meagan Good).  I see a lot of Venus and Serena Williams' dad in Ginny's dad.

[DeLurker]

@jhlipton - glad to hear you're favorable on Pitch!  I recorded it but have not watched it yet and was searching for some opinions on it here, but without going to the thread because I did not want to be spoiled in advance.

[atomationage]

My question on Pitch is how come I never heard of the show, and only read about it here?  I watched the first episode and liked it.   The lead actress is very charismatic. 

[jhlipton]

@DeLurker -- do not read anything before watching.  There is a twist, and you really don't want to know what it is.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, atomationage said:

My question on Pitch is how come I never heard of the show, and only read about it here?  I watched the first episode and liked it.   The lead actress is very charismatic. 

Pitch got major buzz after the upfronts.  In fact, IIRC, it was originally not suposed to air until mid-season, but the reaction at the upfronts was so strongly positive that Fox moved it up in the schedule.  But Fox, imo , doesn't promo well.  I only heard about Pitch becuase of critic buzz.  Meanwhile, NBC was saturating the airwaves with their big buzzy new show, This Is Us.

But I like Kylie Bunbury and have done so since she was in Twisted.  And then she was also excellent on Tut.  Glad to see she si getting more exposure on a network show.

[BoogieBurns]

I remember when they were casting for Pitch they had a hard time finding both an athlete and an actress in one person. They almost called it off. The girl who got the job was the ONLY one considered past the initial audition. I guess I'll check it out. Love some new shows. 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

Pitch got major buzz after the upfronts.  In fact, IIRC, it was originally not suposed to air until mid-season, but the reaction at the upfronts was so strongly positive that Fox moved it up in the schedule.  But Fox, imo , doesn't promo well.  I only heard about Pitch becuase of critic buzz.  Meanwhile, NBC was saturating the airwaves with their big buzzy new show, This Is Us.

I've also heard that FOX saw an opportunity with Scandal being delayed until midseason because of Kerry Washington's pregnancy.  The promo hasn't been great for the show.  The only reason I know of it is because I follow TV critics on Twitter and they've talked about it.  I've seen some of them question FOX's promotional angle with this show..as in it's going for baseball fans instead of people who are more likely to watch it.  I don't like baseball but I do like sports stories and shows with interesting female leads.