Race & Ethnicity On TV

[lucindabelle]

Wow that excerpt from klickstein is offensive. As if white people are the norm and everyone else is somehow not. As a Jewish woman I grew up not getting the signs that tv characters were Jewish (say taxi) because it wasn't explicit, and in really got sick of only seeing Jewish characters when it was an episode qbout antisemitism or the holocaust or something. In real life, teachers doctors, kids, come in all religions, colors etc and it's just one more trait they happen to have like hair color or weight. How can klickstein not know this? It's not artificial diversity to include an indian character, it's actually artificial homogeneity not to. Granted it's different in different places, but in most urban areas things are fairly diverse these days. And ditto for gay characters who just are. They are not comic relief or marching for gay pride, they just exist in the workplace.

His rationale is he same rationale that kept men from seeing women's stories as universal, too, sickening.

[junemeatcleaver]

 

But why does her name have to be Charmonique? To me, that's what makes the entire character a stereotype. Why can't a black secretary who just happens to be overweight be named Cindy or Suzie? The overall joke would still be relevant--that Eliza doesn't bother to speak to her or learn her name.

 

There's nothing wrong with her name being Charmonique, plenty of women have those so-called stereotypical black names, it was that her name was set up as a punchline.  It's another thing for folks to laugh at about black women imo when ones name shouldn't be a big deal.

[callie lee 29]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the recent Gotham debacle of putting a white stunt-woman in blackface for a future episode. Lots of backtracking and "we didn't know" from the higher-ups.

 

Original Deadline article  http://deadline.com/2014/10/gotham-stunt-woman-blackface-warner-bros-848969/

NPR article  http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/10/26/359077811/gotham-resurfaces-hollywoods-tricky-history-of-painting-down

[Trini]

I mentioned it in the race thread in the Movies section. Yeah, it's disgusting, and I wasn't even aware of the issue before that article came out.

[Bruinsfan]

I dont know, while I'd agree it's a shame the stunt coordinator didn't have a better match for the guest actress ready at hand to hire, it doesn't strike me as the same level of offense as Mickey Rooney's Mr. Yunioshi. Stunt work often involves a masking a performer who doesn't particularly resemble the actor he or she is standing in for - Exhibit A being the guy that's doing the flip for Scarlett Johansson's Black Widow in this clip from The Avengers, a movie that didn't have the time or budget constraints that a television show is working under:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzxndIDuSII

[Trini]

I agree that's it's not the same level of offensive; but troubling nonetheless.

[arc]

John Cho on his career and Selfie:

 

Scripts become considerations of things like stereotypes and implications for Cho, who says he thinks about it to the point of distraction. Playing a stereotypical Asian never settled with the 1.5-generation actor, not even in the early days of his career.

 

He knew his portrayals wouldn’t primarily be used for an Asian American audience. It made him feel dirty, as though he had to own up to it.

 

“I think about young me. If I were 12 years old and seeing me on television or on movies, would I like this or dislike it? Would I be happy about it, or would I be embarrassed?” Cho said. “As a viewer, I’ve had those thoughts, and I’ve had those experiences as a young man. There are certain actors and performances and roles that had a positive impact on me and others that made me cringe. I just never wanted to be in the ‘cringe’ category.”

I know, work is work and sometimes actors have to take what comes along, but I still think this is a very laudatory stance for him to take.

[callie lee 29]

Yeah, it is troubling, but for some reason it didn't raise the same level of ire as other "blackface" incidents one hears about. I think it's more sad than anything. That some low to mid level person had this solution as an easy way to solve a problem. It seems more pathetic than anything.

[cynic]

I was reading an article about Sleepy Hollow's decline in ratings. In the comment section, a few people made some pretty crappy comments on how they were turned off by the number of minorities in the cast. There was some speculation in the SH thread here that the addition of Hawley could be a response to network pressure in that vein. I think it would be rather non-sensical, since ratings were stronger last year and the cast was even more minority heavy then. I could believe that happening though. I'm actually only surprised that we ended up with a hot blonde guy instead of girl.

In other news, there appears to be an interracial main OTP being set up on The Flash. I don't think I've ever seen a black female in an OTP in a primetime drama on an American network (save for Scandal, which I frankly refuse to count, because that mess is all kinds of gross and dysfunctional instead of romantic). Can anyone else think of one? Not one of the sidekicks, a main couple. And not one that's already established, one where we see the relationship develop and we root for them to get together. I hope it happens here, There's fan feeling already for the guy to get together with some other characters instead. I guess we'll have to see what happens.

Btw, my favorite interracial OTP's have been on British TV: Simon/Alisha on Misfits and Arthur/Gwen on Merlin.

[Raja]

In other news, there appears to be an interracial main OTP being set up on The Flash. I don't think I've ever seen a black female in an OTP in a primetime drama on an American network (save for Scandal, which I frankly refuse to count, because that mess is all kinds of gross and dysfunctional instead of romantic). Can anyone else think of one? Not one of the sidekicks, a main couple. And not one that's already established, one where we see the relationship develop and we root for them to get together. I hope it happens here, There's fan feeling already for the guy to get together with some other characters instead. I guess we'll have to see what happens.

 

I don't know if "we" will want to see them together. Those who know the comics know that they put them together but the TV show made the mistake of saying they were raised in the same home as kids pulling in an eeck factor. Just like a brother when you were raised together is just like incest 

[Trini]

 

I don't think I've ever seen a black female in an OTP in a primetime drama on an American network

Off the top of my head, the short-lived Deception, from two seasons ago.

But there just hasn't been many dramas with a black female lead at all, so it's slim pickings from the get-go.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Trini

[ribboninthesky1]

Is Iris considered a lead on The Flash? She's part of the cast, but she seems more like a supporting character to me, especially since she is the only one supposedly close to Barry who doesn't know his secret.  I understand the comics canon, but I'm hesitant to believe that will translate into the show.  The CW doesn't inspire much confidence.

 

I was reading an article about Sleepy Hollow's decline in ratings. In the comment section, a few people made some pretty crappy comments on how they were turned off by the number of minorities in the cast. There was some speculation in the SH thread here that the addition of Hawley could be a response to network pressure in that vein. I think it would be rather non-sensical, since ratings were stronger last year and the cast was even more minority heavy then. I could believe that happening though. I'm actually only surprised that we ended up with a hot blonde guy instead of girl.

 

I'm not really surprised by this, as it seemed to me that the show was headed in the whitewashing direction in the latter half of season one.  I'm not convinced it's solely, or even primarily, network interference.  I heard that Nicole Beharie was cast sort of last minute, probably because of the popularity of Scandal. I know a lot people got up in arms about that NY Times article that referred to Abbie as a side-kick, but that's the one thing I did agree with the article about.  Beharie is the female lead, but the show has always centered on Ichabod Crane and his drama/journey.  It never felt equal from a storytelling perspective. 

 

That doesn't mean Abbie got no development, but she's not driving the story, and never has.  I remember the praise the show received last year, and I was skeptical (mind you, I saw what was going on with Scandal, and that influenced my perception of Sleepy Hollow).  I've been holding off getting into season 2, as I wanted to suss how integrated Jenny was going to be.  Those two would be the only reason for me to watch the show, so once I found out that Jenny hasn't had much of a role (per my niece), it confirmed my decision not to watch. If that changes, I'll re-evaluate.    

Edited November 5, 2014 by ribboninthesky1

[cynic]

Iris does feel a bit more like a supporting character, but if she does end up with Barry, she would be in the main OTP, since Barry is the main lead.

I would even be happy with examples from ensemble casts with the main OTP involving a black female.

As for Sleepy Hollow, everything I've read said that Beharie was cast before Mison and he had to screentest with her. My perception early in the first season was that Sleepy Hollow was set up as a two-hander like Castle or Elementary (or Sherlock). The name of the show would indicate favoring his story and he's the one that gets a family, but she's just as big of a part of the show as he is and the whole thing is centered on their relationship. Starting towards the middle of last year, Abbie felt less central. Increasingly this year, she does feel rather like a sidekick.

Edited November 5, 2014 by cynic

[arc]

Is Iris considered a lead on The Flash? She's part of the cast, but she seems more like a supporting character to me, especially since she is the only one supposedly close to Barry who doesn't know his secret.  

I think that's mostly writer stupidity, or possibly a network or DC edict.  After all, the same network pulled the same shit with Lana in Smallville, and she was a lead char too.  But the reasons they give in The Flash are, if anything, even dumber than anything Smallville ever tried, and that's one of the dumbest shows ever.  (The Flash is on the whole less dumb. So far. But WRT Iris... yeah.)

 

cynic, I know you said primetime dramas... was that to not count Angela and Shawn from Boy Meets World? =)

[cynic]

cynic, I know you said primetime dramas... was that to not count Angela and Shawn from Boy Meets World? =)

Oh, I loved Angela and Shawn! They weren't the main OTP though. Corey and Topanga were. Anyway, I actually excluded sitcoms, because they seem to get way more leeway with regards to race issues than dramas. We've had sitcoms with predominantly black casts over the years, but not dramas. Although, I'm not sure there is a black female main OTP in a sitcom either, unless, again, it was a mostly black cast. Edited November 7, 2014 by cynic

[Luckylyn]

I LOVED Shawn and Angela on Boy Meets World.   This reminds me that the show sometimes referenced that Angela was the only black person in their group of friends.  I remember she made a joke they didn't get, and she muttered that she needed more black friends.  Then, there was a time when Corey wanted to know what paper she was writing and she replied "White History."  It is a shame though that she was the only black cast member and it's worse because the occasional references to that shows they understood the lack of diversity, but didn't do anything about it.  I vaguely remember some article that said Angela was almost eliminated from the show because people were writing angry letters about her interracial romance with Shawn but the actors ,in particular Rider Strong, fought for her to stay despite network pressure.

 

I heard that the Lisa/Zack romance on Saved by the Bell was ended because of angry letters.  It was weird.  They got together and then in the next episodes they weren't dating. There was no reference to a break up or that they ever being together.  I was disappointed because they had so much chemistry, and Lisa was the only cast member never to have a long term romance.  Even Screech had Violet for several episodes.  I don't know why Lisa wasn't ever given the same romantic treatment the others got.

[ribboninthesky1]

I think we know why.  Lark Voorhies was as pretty as her female co-stars (if not more so), but she wasn't white.  This was late 80s/early 90s, so unless you were on a show with all or mostly black cast members, generally you weren't gonna have much of a love life.  I'm just glad she didn't end up with Screech.  It was rather ironic, if the rumors of Mark-Paul and Lark dating during the show are true.

[Tetraneutron]

True. But Jessie and Slater were an interracial romance and that lasted for the whole show, as well as Slater having other girlfriends generally. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Lisa was supposed to be Jewish, and I can see that given what a complete JAP stereotype she was. I wonder if she would have and more (or, any) longer-term romances if that were the case.

 

OTPs with a minority woman that I can think of in recent years include The Mindy Project, Scandal, HTGAWM, Cristela, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Deception (as someone said), Person of Interest (I think). That's not many. There are more as supporting characters, but still not a lot.

[ribboninthesky1]

But Jessie and Slater were an interracial romance and that lasted for the whole show, as well as Slater having other girlfriends generally.

 

I never considered them an interracial couple - not then as a kid, and definitely not now.  Granted, it's been many years, but I don't recall there being many, if any, references to Slater being Hispanic.  Especially with a name like A.C. Slater.   

 

ETA:

I think Lisa was originally supposed to be white and Jewish.

Edited November 7, 2014 by ribboninthesky1

[Tetraneutron]

Yeah, but I don't think there were any references to Lisa's ethnicity either. It's been years since I saw the show, but I remember one C-plot where Jessie discovers her ancestors were slave traders, feels guilty about it, and Lisa tells her it doesn't matter. And that's it. Ethnicity on the show never came up at all for anyone. I think Zach having Native American ancestry got more attention than Slater's and Lisa's background put together. But Mario Lopez is brown and his surname is in the opening credits. From what I can tell, that seems to be the trend amont the kiddie sitcoms. A few minority characters, and the issue of ethnicity only ever comes up once in a VSE where a guest star acts in a completely obviously racist way and then learns he's wrong. But the rest of the time, it's no different that Scooter and Gonzo being different-colored muppets in terms of how it informs the characters.

 

If Lisa were Jewish, would the character then be problematic because it's an offensive stereotype? I'm cringing just thinking about it, but I'm not sure why. Can we only have minorities if they behave in non-stereotypical ways? Wouldn't that just lead to never seeing minorities on TV because creators don't want to have to deal with it?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Granted, it's been many years, but I don't recall there being many, if any, references to Slater being Hispanic.  Especially with a name like A.C. Slater.   

 

Perhaps, but OTOH Michael Scofield isn't obviously an ethnic name either, but because people know that Wentworth Miller is bi-racial it doesn't really have to be. Obviously Prison Break was a very different kind of show than Saved By The Bell, but maybe the same logic kind of applies.

[paulvdb]

I heard that the Lisa/Zack romance on Saved by the Bell was ended because of angry letters.  It was weird.  They got together and then in the next episodes they weren't dating. There was no reference to a break up or that they ever being together.  I was disappointed because they had so much chemistry, and Lisa was the only cast member never to have a long term romance.  Even Screech had Violet for several episodes.  I don't know why Lisa wasn't ever given the same romantic treatment the others got.

I have read that story about the angry letters, but that can't be the real reason. The show would have already filmed more episodes by the time that episode aired, so Zack and Lisa would have been together in several filmed episodes before any angry letters would have arrived at the network or production studio.

If race was the reason why that pairing ended after only one episode it would have to be someone at the network or the production studio who told them to kill that pairing.

[Luckylyn]

You have a good point that it would have taken time for angry letters to get to the studio.   It's not like today when show runners can check out twitter to get immediate reactions.  I'd really love to know the real back story on the whole Zack and Lisa thing because it was so odd and abrupt how the show pretended it never happened.   Why pursue the romance in the first place if they were just going to drop it?  Now I'm wondering if someone at the studio killed the pairing.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Raja]

Perhaps, but OTOH Michael Scofield isn't obviously an ethnic name either, but because people know that Wentworth Miller is bi-racial it doesn't really have to be. Obviously Prison Break was a very different kind of show than Saved By The Bell, but maybe the same logic kind of applies.

I had no ideal that he was until after his show was a hit and the Black media trumpeted him as one of us. Sort of like when Mariah Carey first hit she was a pop singer who identified her father as Brazilian and after her divorce she came out as Black and was featured in Black themed magazines

[ribboninthesky1]

Also, I'm pretty sure Michael Scofield, the character, was white, regardless of Wentworth's racial ancestry.  I don't think it was well known that Wentworth was biracial, at least not when Prison Break premiered. 

 

Yeah, but I don't think there were any references to Lisa's ethnicity either. It's been years since I saw the show, but I remember one C-plot where Jessie discovers her ancestors were slave traders, feels guilty about it, and Lisa tells her it doesn't matter. And that's it. Ethnicity on the show never came up at all for anyone. I think Zach having Native American ancestry got more attention than Slater's and Lisa's background put together. But Mario Lopez is brown and his surname is in the opening credits. From what I can tell, that seems to be the trend amont the kiddie sitcoms. A few minority characters, and the issue of ethnicity only ever comes up once in a VSE where a guest star acts in a completely obviously racist way and then learns he's wrong. But the rest of the time, it's no different that Scooter and Gonzo being different-colored muppets in terms of how it informs the characters.

 

If Lisa were Jewish, would the character then be problematic because it's an offensive stereotype? I'm cringing just thinking about it, but I'm not sure why. Can we only have minorities if they behave in non-stereotypical ways? Wouldn't that just lead to never seeing minorities on TV because creators don't want to have to deal with it?

 

I'm not Jewish, so I can't speak for that group.  But frankly, in the past and present, racial minorities have largely been stereotypes, so I don't know what you're asking.

 

As for Lisa's ethnicity - well, there is a difference between race and ethnicity.  Most black people are easily identified.  No VSE required.  You can be white and Hispanic, though for the time period, I doubt many people thought this way.  I can only speak for how I perceived the show. As a kid, with no knowledge about Mario Lopez the actor, I don't recall thinking, "Slater's Mexican!" I don't think his skin shade is any different than, say, Antonio Banderas, who is a Spaniard.  Or Antonio Sabato Jr, who is Italian.  When I think of brown Hispanic actors, I think more George Lopez than Mario, though they both have Mexican ancestry. Mileage varies, of course.

Edited November 8, 2014 by ribboninthesky1

[Constant Viewer]

I just assumed that Slater's dad was white and his mom was Hispanic.  IN one of the episodes where they work at the hotel over the summer he speaks Spanish to the kitchen staff.  

 

On the race v. ethnicity thing, the US Census categorizes Hispanics as racially white but ethnically Spanish.  The US military did not segregate Hispanic troops from white troops and there was a case (Delgado v. Bastrop ISD) to make sure Hispanics and whites attended the same schools because some areas were segregating them.  My grandparents did attend school with white kids before that case so I guess it just depended on the area where you lived. Now with more Hispanics in the US, there is talk of actually making Hispanics officially a separate race since most people consider it that anyway.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Constant Viewer

[Minneapple]

Lisa Turtle was supposed to be a Jewish princess from Long Island and Slater was supposed to be a tough Italian kid. When Peter Engel talked about casting Lark Voorhees, he said she nailed the audition, and the other producers were like, "but Lisa's not black," and he said, "well, now she is."

[Wax Lion]

As I recall interracial relationship hate mail used to be a big issue on the soaps. In the 80s and 90s there were writers who had the power to dismiss it, but I think for a long time that's why the black characters on The Young and the Restless would just switch partners around.

[Dejana]

Lucy and Ricky Ricardo were an acceptable pair to middle America in the 1950s in a way that a pairing of a black woman and white man probably wouldn't have been, so on that level, it's not surprising that the "Interracial Couple!" baggage never really stuck to Jessie/Slater in the early 1990s like it did for Lisa/Zack. It is a good point that negative fan response couldn't have killed a romance with just one episode filmed; I think it would take longer to filter back to TPTB even now. I remember my kid self thinking Zack would run from pursuing anything with Screech's longtime crush. There was a limited dating pool, but some of the other characters had more of a frenemy dynamic, where there would be less consideration about who would be considered "off limits". Still, it's hard to picture network execs getting worked up about a bro code violation with regard to Lisa/Zack, but wanting to squelch controversy with a kiddie show, sure.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Dejana

[DearEvette]

On the race v. ethnicity thing, the US Census categorizes Hispanics as racially white but ethnically Spanish.

 

 

I do fed reporting on race & ethnicity and since 2010 the collection of that data has become a two part question, it decouples ethnicity & race.

 

1.  Are you of Hispanic or Latino Ethnicity? [a yes or no answer]

2. What is your race [pick one or more of from five categories] (White, Black or African American, American Indian or Alaskan Native, Asian, Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander)

 

When the data is aggregated, if you answered 'Yes' to question #1, then your answer to question #2 is disregarded.  So if you clicked 'Yes' to question #1 and picked 'Black' for question #2, you would just be reported as 'Hispanic or Latino of any race.'

 

If you answered  'No' to question #1 and pick a race for question #2,  then you are counted as that race

 

If you answered 'No' to question #1 and pick multiple races for question #2, then  you are counted as 'Two or more races'

 

If you are not a US Citizen, no matter how you answered question #1 and question #2 you are counted as 'Non Resident Alien' or 'Resident Alien' depending on your visa/immigrant status

Edited November 8, 2014 by DearEvette

[Raja]

  The US military did not segregate Hispanic troops from white troops 

The US Military only segregated African Americans with the exception of Japanese during WWII. If there was no suprise attack on Pearl Harbor the Japanese most likely would have stayed integrated into the rest of the army. Hence every WWII platoon of the movies, which were also propaganda pieces had their Hispanic or Native American character. Early in WWII someone thought it would be a good ideal to send troops of Chinese heritage  to China India Burma so about a third of the first draftees ended up there in what looked like racial segregation before the Army decided that segregating them  for the Chinese theatre war effort, sort of like Green Berets are suppose to have language skills to work with local populations, was not worth the disruptions it caused the total war effort and the later Chinese American recruits and draftees went into the general replacement pool and were as likely to be sent to France and Germany as any other soldier. With Black soldiers they accepted all disruptions until after the Battle of the Bulge when a few volunteers were accepted in what was called experimental integrated combat units.  African American was different then just a racial minority in the American racial caste system

Edited November 8, 2014 by Raja

[Neurochick]

This is as good a place as any to share this.  Last night I saw something on Hawaii 5-0 that really bothered me.  I rarely watch that show, but I just happened to catch it because it was their 100th episode.

 

In it, Steve was kidnapped by Wo Fat (I'm like, hasn't this happened like 2828828 times?) Anyway, Wo Fat had a black woman working with him.  She was a tall, slim, brown skinned black woman with short, natural hair.  I thought she was hot.  Anyway, what bothered me was that Steve, in trying to get away, fights her and eventually kills her.  The scene was quite brutal and after it was over, I shook my head.  I understand why "Shondaland" is so important.  See, I found that scene very racist because I really don't think the show would have cast a white female/Hispanic female/Asian female/light skinned black female for this part.  Despite Lupita Nyong'o as a fashion icon, I have noticed that darker skinned black women are not seen as feminine, in the way other women are.  I mean this fight was brutal, and the way Steve kills her is he wraps something around her neck and strangles her to death and I'm like, no one said something like, "guys, this looks too much like a lynching."  

 

Anyway, I was offended.  

[ribboninthesky1]

I quit the show about 3 episodes into the first season because 1) Danny was an asshole, and 2) I didn't understand why Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park wouldn't be leads on a show set in Hawaii. No, I don't care that it was a remake of the 70s show.

 

Anyway, that scene sounds brutal. I didn't think it was the TV norm for any woman, no matter how badass, to be beaten that badly by a man in a fight, and the racial dynamics make that particularly tricky.   

[Miss Dee]

http://thedailyfandom.com/abbie-mills-dodging-double-binds/

This was posted in the Sleepy Hollow threads; I thought some people might find it interesting.

[Raja]

Lieutenant Mills may not have been with Ichabod Crane yet. But look at her known history. A Hispanic ex boyfriend and an Asian co worker with a crush. Her sister had a friends with benefits relationship with the new White guy introduced as the third side of a triangle. I think Captain Irving, being from the previous generation is the only black man with a Black woman on the show.

[ribboninthesky1]

http://thedailyfandom.com/abbie-mills-dodging-double-binds/

This was posted in the Sleepy Hollow threads; I thought some people might find it interesting.

 

I haven't watched the show this season, but I watched the first season and followed the TWOP forum.  I remember the contention between fans who saw Abbie purely from a female lead perspective vs those who acknowledged the intersection between race/gender and that Abbie was a black female lead; also, I remember one poster in particular was treated pretty shabbily for her forthright opinions on Abbie and Ichabod. 

 

I'm probably one of the few former viewers of the show who never liked Crane, and found his relationship with Abbie problematic from the beginning.   But I also realize that, as a black woman, I'm more sensitive to how black women are characterized.  The author of the article made salient points around the ignorance of some fans regarding the intersection of race/gender, specifically for black women on TV.

 

Though, more importantly, I suspect that's exactly what's going on in the writers' room of the show.  I can't find the article, but I thought I read somewhere before the show premiered that Abbie wasn't originally written as a black woman, and that when Nicole was cast, they had to rewrite the scene where Abbie and Ichabod first meet, presumably to acknowledge slavery.

[allyw]

I haven't watched the show this season, but I watched the first season and followed the TWOP forum. I remember the contention between fans who saw Abbie purely from a female lead perspective vs those who acknowledged the intersection between race/gender and that Abbie was a black female lead; also, I remember one poster in particular was treated pretty shabbily for her forthright opinions on Abbie and Ichabod.

I'm probably one of the few former viewers of the show who never liked Crane, and found his relationship with Abbie problematic from the beginning. But I also realize that, as a black woman, I'm more sensitive to how black women are characterized. The author of the article made salient points around the ignorance of some fans regarding the intersection of race/gender, specifically for black women on TV.

Though, more importantly, I suspect that's exactly what's going on in the writers' room of the show. I can't find the article, but I thought I read somewhere before the show premiered that Abbie wasn't originally written as a black woman, and that when Nicole was cast, they had to rewrite the scene where Abbie and Ichabod first meet, presumably to acknowledge slavery.

That was a very good article and I wish a more non-poc would read it because a lot of them just don't get it. WOC particular black women have been shown time and time again on screen as someone with no life and no matter how attractive the actress is, the character doesn't get an "epic" lovestory or even just a love interest.

I remember when fans of Bonnie from TVD was asking the head writer Julie Plec to pair her with a vampire and she responded that Bonnie was too beautiful and good for a psychopath. The fans then called out her hypocrisy because the other female (white) characters were with murdering psychopaths and that went double for the lead who had damn near every male on the show in love with her and even then some people still didn't get it.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I remember when fans of Bonnie from TVD was asking the head writer Julie Plec to pair her with a vampire and she responded that Bonnie was too beautiful and good for a psychopath. The fans then called out her hypocrisy because the other female (white) characters were with murdering psychopaths and that went double for the lead who had damn near every male on the show in love with her and even then some people still didn't get it.

 

Let me preface this by saying that I think the only thing Damon Salvatore should be paired up with is either a blazing bonfire or a vat of holy water. Why anyone would wish him on someone is beyond me.

 

With that said, it is a bit of a Catch 22 to me. Olivia Pope's love interest drew viewer ire because he was white and married, and she was criticized for being the "side piece" of a powerful man. That she was autonomous and had a life outside of that didn't seem to matter much. Admittedly I don't watch Scandal because I saw KW in Boston Legal and didn't like her in that, but if I had no familiarity with the actress I would likely enjoy the show very much. Maybe I'm not sensitive enough to the current social climate, but does saying "some people just don't get it" mean that it would be preferable to have Bonnie paired with Damon despite the little matter of him being both psychotic and a murderer?

[Rick Kitchen]

What's the web talk about Viola Davis's character's being married to a white man, and not only that, but a white man destined to be murdered, apparently, on "How to Get Away With Murder"?

I only watched the first episode, but she also apparently has a side affair with an African-American man.

[allyw]

Let me preface this by saying that I think the only thing Damon Salvatore should be paired up with is either a blazing bonfire or a vat of holy water. Why anyone would wish him on someone is beyond me.

With that said, it is a bit of a Catch 22 to me. Olivia Pope's love interest drew viewer ire because he was white and married, and she was criticized for being the "side piece" of a powerful man. That she was autonomous and had a life outside of that didn't seem to matter much. Admittedly I don't watch Scandal because I saw KW in Boston Legal and didn't like her in that, but if I had no familiarity with the actress I would likely enjoy the show very much. Maybe I'm not sensitive enough to the current social climate, but does saying "some people just don't get it" mean that it would be preferable to have Bonnie paired with Damon despite the little matter of him being both psychotic and a murderer?

The vampire in question was Kol and the main point is that Elena and Caroline who also happened to be white had multiple love interests while Bonnie (when on screen) only practised magic and risk/sacrifice herself for these people. It wasn't about whether said love interest was a psychopath or not.

As for Scandal, black women's sexuality always seem to be up for debate. A lot of people for whatever reason thinks that the affair is what defines Olivia and can't seem to see past that. I only speak for myself and what originally drew me to the show was the fact that I like Kerry Washington and Olivia wasn't a strong black woman. Yeah, she was/is having an affair with a married man, but that is just part of the character. She was also a boss and doing the damn thing at her job while being allowed to be vulnerable.

[ancslove]

 

See, I found that scene very racist because I really don't think the show would have cast a white female/Hispanic female/Asian female/light skinned black female for this part.  Despite Lupita Nyong'o as a fashion icon, I have noticed that darker skinned black women are not seen as feminine, in the way other women are.  I mean this fight was brutal, and the way Steve kills her is he wraps something around her neck and strangles her to death and I'm like, no one said something like, "guys, this looks too much like a lynching."

In my experience, a lot of times, if the intent (to look like a lynching or to reference an atrocity) isn't there in the initial brainstorming, it doesn't ping to the creators afterward.  If the goal was "Steve escapes and kills the antagonist in the process", then that's all they'll see.  

[Raja]

In my experience, a lot of times, if the intent (to look like a lynching or to reference an atrocity) isn't there in the initial brainstorming, it doesn't ping to the creators afterward.  If the goal was "Steve escapes and kills the antagonist in the process", then that's all they'll see.  

The question becomes how did they choose her as the antagonist? It was. truly a could have been anyone role. How did a fugitive former Chinese agent find her to be his minion? When she first appeared, showing my age now, I thought of the Asian, White and African American torturers interrogators from the blaxpoitation era.Three The Hard Way 

[ancslove]

How much do writers think about the backstories for their one-off bit characters?  I don't think they care that much.

 

Personally, I would've thought that a one-off guest role is made for color-blind casting, but I can't verify that here.  But I think the real problem here is lack of thought, not trying to be obliquely offensive.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

The vampire in question was Kol and the main point is that Elena and Caroline who also happened to be white had multiple love interests while Bonnie (when on screen) only practised magic and risk/sacrifice herself for these people. It wasn't about whether said love interest was a psychopath or not.

As for Scandal, black women's sexuality always seem to be up for debate. A lot of people for whatever reason thinks that the affair is what defines Olivia and can't seem to see past that. I only speak for myself and what originally drew me to the show was the fact that I like Kerry Washington and Olivia wasn't a strong black woman. Yeah, she was/is having an affair with a married man, but that is just part of the character. She was also a boss and doing the damn thing at her job while being allowed to be vulnerable.

 

Eh. Kol, Damon, its kind of six of one and half a dozen of the other. Unless you're doing it wrong, fictional vampires are kind of supposed to be psychotic murderers. My problem with them is really that viewers somehow think that they need love interests and not to be set on fire from the feet up. But that's off-topic, so.

 

With that said, I have been enjoying Viola Davis in How To Get Away With Murder. The show isn't particularly realistic, but Davis is such a powerhouse that I can handwave most of that. I'm not sure that any TV show can make all viewers entirely happy, whether its about racial issues or gender-related ones or even something less serious like shipping. Is Sleepy Hollow a program worth watching?

[Raja]

Sleepy Hollow plays like Grim with famous American Revolutionaries sometimes being brought in as a back story as playing a roll in the supernatural big battle of which the American Revolutionary War was a side show. And now the big battle is back on in present day Sleepy Hollow.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Raja

[allyw]

 

Eh. Kol, Damon, its kind of six of one and half a dozen of the other. Unless you're doing it wrong, fictional vampires are kind of supposed to be psychotic murderers. My problem with them is really that viewers somehow think that they need love interests and not to be set on fire from the feet up. But that's off-topic, so.

 

I'm not exactly sure what's the point of this response as the discussion wasn't about whether or not a vampire deserve a love interest.

[Dejana]

I think with Scandal, because it was the first drama in so long led by a black woman, that it drew a certain segment of viewers watching it for that reason, even though the premise, where the central romance is an extramarital affair, or that the black female lead is/was a mistress, bothers them on a fundamental level, and perhaps the Rhimes ouevre really isn't to their tastes. Sure, there are viewers who get super worked up about the affairs on Mad Men, too, but at this point it pretty obviously goes with the territory, and there are dozens of other dramas on TV starring white characters who don't commit adultery, so viewers not into moral ambiguity just don't bother with a show like that, expecting it to be something that it's not.

 

Or, they thought (hoped?) Olivia's relationship with Fitz would always be some minor consideration between Olivia being this power fixer in cases of the week. I always forget that some viewers of Scandal didn't followed Grey's Anatomy, so when things happen like Olivia seeming more passive and whiny and relegated to hitting the same beats over and over in a toxic relationship, while other supporting characters get more prominent roles and are more refreshing to watch, I'm thinking, "This is Meredith on Grey's circa 2006-7! It was too soon for Meredith and McDreamy's happily ever after, so when she wasn't pining for Derek and having another ridiculous argument with him, they stuck her with McVet, she was a kind of a drip and Chandra Wilson and Sandra Oh were much more interesting to watch." But when it's Olivia and Mellie on Scandal, it becomes this whole conversation about white privilege and a dozen terrible tropes about black women allegedly being propagated. I think Shonda Rhimes just has some...interesting ideas about relationships, and, judging by the writing on her shows at least, seems to think it's not really a grand romance without five or six years of strife, tears, messy breakups and verbal abuse.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Dejana

[galax-arena]

it would be preferable to have Bonnie paired with Damon despite the little matter of him being both psychotic and a murderer?

I didn't ship Bonnie with Damon or Kol. The only thing I shipped Damon with, back when I still watched the show, was a stake through the heart. But that didn't stop me from thinking that Julie Plec's rationalization for not pairing up Bonnie was a load of horseshit.

 

And then of course Matt Davis had to get in on the act and imply that black viewers were being unnecessarily loud and whiny by complaining about Bonnie, and when people called him out on it, said that he wasn't racist because he believed that we all bled the same color of blood. Yeah... 

[ribboninthesky1]

In the context of black viewers and mainstream shows, I think we're also in a no-win situation. Because if we (legitimately) complain about how certain characters are treated, it's often regarded as overreacting. If we enact our right to to stop watching a show, then it's regarded as not supporting a black character.

The facts are: most TV showrunners and writers are white. Due to US History, there is (and may always be) baggage in terms of black and white relations. Said white showrunners bear the burden of that with black characters they write. (To be fair, so do black writers, but they don't have much access to the mainstream). That's just the way it is.

Of course, one great solution would be to have more black writers in the room to catch most of the nuances and challenge the obliviousness of said white showrunners. But I doubt that will happen, so if you're going to engage fans, then you take your lumps with criticism. Unless criticism devolves into personal attacks, I have zero sympathy for white showrunners and writers being nailed to the wall about certain characters.

[topanga]

In the context of black viewers and mainstream shows, I think we're also in a no-win situation. Because if we (legitimately) complain about how certain characters are treated, it's often regarded as overreacting. If we enact our right to to stop watching a show, then it's regarded as not supporting a black character.

The facts are: most TV showrunners and writers are white. Due to US History, there is (and may always be) baggage in terms of black and white relations. Said white showrunners bear the burden of that with black characters they write. (To be fair, so do black writers, but they don't have much access to the mainstream). That's just the way it is.

Of course, one great solution would be to have more black writers in the room to catch most of the nuances and challenge the obliviousness of said white showrunners. But I doubt that will happen, so if you're going to engage fans, then you take your lumps with criticism. Unless criticism devolves into personal attacks, I have zero sympathy for white showrunners and writers being nailed to the wall about certain characters.

Great post, ribboninthesky1.

 

I think it's sad that some of the most compelling shows featuring black or multi-ethnic casts but with white showrunners were from the 1970s and '80s. I'm talking The Jeffersons, Good Times, The Cosby Show, and A Different World. I don't know the make-up of the writers' rooms, but with the exception of J.J. Evans becoming somewhat buffoonish/cartoonish during the last days of Good Times, the spectrum of black characters on those sit-coms were varied and largely non-stereotypical. So I don't know if showrunners were less oblivious on these shows, or if there were people of color who contributed to the scripts.(And I don't know if the Fresh Prince of Bel Air would fit into this category. I know Quincy Jones was one of its creators and producers, but I don't know who the showrunners were).

 

So in 2014, is it that showrunners (black and white) are oblivious to criticism about the way black characters are portrayed, or are they in denial about the legitimacy of the criticisms, choosing to call the critics "haters?"

 

On Sleepy Hollow, for example, there has been an abundance of criticism this season about the way POC are being incorporated into the episode storylines. Abbie, one of the two leads on the show, has been marginalized in terms of her role as a leader and decision-maker. Yes, she is portrayed as the moral center of the show, but her opinions are routinely overruled by the opinions of two other lead characters, Ichabod and Katrina. This was not the case in Season 1. And two of the show's supporting characters, who are black, and who were central to the show's mysteries in Season 1, have been largely invisible in Season 2, in terms of actual screen time (Jenny), or in terms of being an important part of the season-long story arc (Irving). And at the same time, white characters that were marginal in Season 1 are now central to the episode plots in Season 2, which would be more acceptable if Abbie weren't being portrayed week after week with less power and influence than she's supposed to have. And being portrayed as the savior/personal assistant/nanny to the white "powerful witch and skillful operative" who can't conjure up some kind of spell or tonic to cure her own damn headache.

 

--The show's writers have largely not responded to criticisms like these, which come from a large portion of Sleepy Hollow's fan base. One writer even said they don't want to get into a debate. Why not? These fans are the people who keep your show on the air. We're not a small group of crazy conspiracy theorists.  You might not agree with a particular perspective, but aren't your fans worthy of acknowledgement? In fact, two black cast members on the show have been the only people to say, "I understand your concerns, but please keep watching."

 

--I do think that black showrunners like Shonda Rhimes also have a responsibility to examine their portrayal of black characters. I like that Shonda creates complex characters who are allowed to be smart, feminine, tough, flawed, and vulnerable, all at the same time. But for a character like Olivia Pope, I think she should examine, or at least acknowledge on the show, that there is historical context when you see a dream sequence with a black female character having sex with two white men (not the same time--there was creative editing that jumped from scene to scene). Some people would argue that it's just TV and that I'm overreacting--white women are constantly caught in love triangles. But in a country where a little over 150 years ago, black people were the property of slave owners, and black women were often raped by different members of the owner's family, that scene was problematic for me.

Edited November 12, 2014 by topanga