S05.E09: The Dance of Dragons

[nksarmi]

Its not that I don't like Tyrion or root for him, because I actually do. I just think its annoying that anything he did or said in the book that could be construed as "bad" gets wiped away, or placed on other people, whereas we get Stannis killing his daughter, and Jaimie killing his cousin, and other "bad" stuff, because they aren't the creators favorite character. If I have any real issue with Show Tyron, its that he`s a bit less complex than Book Tyron, who I still like and root for, even with his various bad acts. He is basically always written as the best guy in the room, unlike the books, where he can frequently falter, even if he tries to do the right thing. 

While I am delighted that they skipped right over the "where do whores go" crap and got Tyrion straight to Dany for my viewing pleasure, I don't think white washing him is all the show runners - I think it's also for the audience to have someone to enjoy, the actor as how big he has gotten, and the PC world we live in where they benefit from making a dwarf a hero instead of a villain or comic relief.

 

I think the last part is big on an HBO show where I think the network likely does demand a certain amount of T&A and where they are constantly dealing with source material that does bad things to women.

[lucindabelle]

That thinking is incredibly short sighted. If her whole council and all those unsullied die then how is she taking over anything? That's not even mentioning the two dragons she has chained up unable to defend themselves.  Not to mention that most rulers who think like that generally tend to be villains.

 

I'm sure the writers will gloss over and choose to concentrate on the fact that she's special cuz she just rode a dragon.

 

And again.

How would her dragon dying have made anything better? It's not the writers "glossing over" anything. I think you are deliberately misconstruing the situation. Drogon was wounded. And he wasn't leaving. Had he died, EVERYONE in that circle was next.

 

Her staying would not have made things better. So don't judge her by "rulers who think like that." She had a specific choice. Ride away on Drogon, and at least she and Drogon live.

Stay to "support her people" and EVERYBODY dies.

[Oscirus]

And again.

How would her dragon dying have made anything better? It's not the writers "glossing over" anything. I think you are deliberately misconstruing the situation. Drogon was wounded. And he wasn't leaving. Had he died, EVERYONE in that circle was next.

 

How would the dragon providing a distraction  so that they could have gotten away made anything better? Are you being serious with that question? 

 

Her riding off on Drogon was extremely selfish. But hey if it's just going to be justified as her leaving everybody to fend for themselves by taking away the biggest weapon is an altruistic act, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Oscirus

[lucindabelle]

How would the dragon providing a distraction  so that they could have gotten away made anything better? Are you being serious with that question? 

 

Her riding off on Drogon was extremely selfish. But hey if it's just going to be justified as her leaving everybody to fend for themselves by taking away the biggest weapon is a magnanimous act, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Theres' no indication that Drogon is trained enough to "provide a distraction." In the episode it's patently obvious that he's wounded and he's staying to protect Dany. He was wounded and getting more so while he stayed. Do you have any evidence to suggest she could have somehow told Drogon what to do?

 

 Had she not ridden away, Drogon would have died. And so would everyone else. I don't think it's "selfish" to want to live. And since she was the main target, it's actually likelier that without her, the others are actually safer. We have zero evidence that they're dead. On what do you base your conclusions?

 

Drogon's death would not have made anything better.

His death wouldn't have been a "distraction" but mere permission for the others to rush in and kill everyone there. As they were already trying to do before he arrived.

It seems you think a good ruler or good mother stands by and lets her rescuer be slaughtered in order to "provide a distraction" that would likely have failed.

 

I don't find this argument in the least persuasive. What we saw in the episode didn't suggest his death would have helped anybody at all.

Edited June 9, 2015 by lucindabelle

[WearyTraveler]

Well, I think that Drogon had taken care of plenty of the Sons of the Harpy with his fire, not to mention the ones that ran away as soon as they saw him burst through the fireball in the sky.

Also, some people might have called in re-inforcements to come to the arena, after the SotH attacked. I foresee more unsullied going in, breaking through the doors that the SotH locked and coming to the rescue. They don't even need to be called in. Once they saw the dragon and heard the terrified screams they would have rushed in, I believe.

Then there is the little issue of this being Dany's first flight. I don't think she's supposed to be able to control this weapon enough to use to everyone's advantage. She has never been on Drogon's back before, how is she supposed to invite people to join her? I'm sorry but thats just very Harry Potter. This is a savage beast that has been running free and unchecked. Dany doesn't have a manual, she needs to learn how to control and direct Drogon, and until she does, there's no guarantee that he will listen to her instead of just frying everything in sight.

Now, the scene is slightly different in the books, because Drogon doesn't come to save Dany, he comes because he smells the blood and he starts eating people. Dany has to face him down, and she rides him mainly to save the people in the stadium.

[lucindabelle]

 

Now, the scene is slightly different in the books, because Drogon doesn't come to save Dany, he comes because he smells the blood and he starts eating people. Dany has to face him down, and she rides him mainly to save the people in the stadium.

I had forgotten that.

I like it much better this way. It's more in line with his coming because she was sad that other time, and reinforces the dragon/human bond.

My very favorite moment of the whole series remains the finale to I think season one when she appeared out of the fire with her dragon babies, suckling.

[Estelindis]

So, if Hizdahr is dead, what is the purpose of Tyrion (and Jorah) in Mereen?  Just so they can have had Tyrion and Dany meet? If so, that seems like a big waste of our time as viewers, knowing how much story they have to tell with only one episode left.

 

In the books, Hizdahr continues on as the "King" and the Queen's hand rules the city.  Are we going to have a throwaway scene where Jorah/Tyrion decide to go on the road together?  Because, honestly, why would the Mereneese follow Tyrion?  He's only been there a short bit and there's been nothing to show that he would be who they should follow. 

 

I have absolutely no idea.  If Dany's advisors just leave Meereen in chaos, it speaks very poorly of the whole Meereenese arc.  It implies that, in future, whenever things don't go Dany's way, she and her followers will just ragequit.  On the other hand, I can't see the show lingering for very long in Meereen.  There's no battle with outside forces that needs to be resolved.  As for Meereen's inner conflict, Hizdahr's death means that there are no known Meereenese characters left to engage with.  Anyway, the show's overall truncation of the Meereen storyline implies that they'd rather conclude it and bring Dany to Westeros.

 

I'm just left confused as to whether the writers think we're supposed to like Dany at the end of all this.  She freed the slaves, which was great, but she made so many mistakes afterwards that I can't help feeling she's been shown to be a better conqueror than a ruler.

[Alapaki]

My fan-wank for that is that Stannis landed his ships north of the wall and that's why he and his legions were on the correct side when they rode in and saved the day last season.  So I assumed they landed at the same spot with the Wildings and marched them to Castle Black on the north side of the wall, following the same path that Stannis took because . . . reasons.  Okay as readers we know that ships regularly dock near the eastern end of the wall where Eastwatch is manned by the NW but that's never been addressed in the show so I guess you can pretend that the only functioning gate -- the only practical way to get 5000 people south of the wall --is to bring them through that gate. 

 

In the book, of course, it happens that way because it is the survivors of the battle that come through the gate, not the batch of Wildings they rescue with the ships.  They come through that way because they are already there.

I'll play.

A couple of other narratively-plausible reasons for Jon returning north of the Wall are that:

We know the Night's Watch would clear the forest for a couple of hundred Yards north of the Wall to prevent the Wildlings from sneaking up on them. This barren track might've provided an easier passage for the number of people Jon was bringing back than the presumably undeveloped land immediately south of the Wall;

Or, with the Boltons in charge in the North, the loyalties of the clans there might be uncertain and Jon didn't want to run the risk of getting hijacked and having the Free Folk he just rescued taken to Winterfell and flayed

OF COURSE, I realize the true reason was for D&D to give us the tense "will he or won't he" scene between Sir Alliser and Jon. In fact, Alliser has gotten a bit of a redemption arc this season, which has me wondering if he'll end up taking a knife for Jon by thwarting Olly's assassination attempt.

[nksarmi]

I'll play.

A couple of other narratively-plausible reasons for Jon returning north of the Wall are that:

We know the Night's Watch would clear the forest for a couple of hundred Yards north of the Wall to prevent the Wildlings from sneaking up on them. This barren track might've provided an easier passage for the number of people Jon was bringing back than the presumably undeveloped land immediately south of the Wall;

Or, with the Boltons in charge in the North, the loyalties of the clans there might be uncertain and Jon didn't want to run the risk of getting hijacked and having the Free Folk he just rescued taken to Winterfell and flayed

OF COURSE, I realize the true reason was for D&D to give us the tense "will he or won't he" scene between Sir Alliser and Jon. In fact, Alliser has gotten a bit of a redemption arc this season, which has me wondering if he'll end up taking a knife for Jon by thwarting Olly's assassination attempt.

If Jon has to be stabbed and resurrected for narrative reasons - I suspect Alliser is going to have to pick up Jon's mantle, punish those who betrayed Jon, and keep the wildling alliance (with Tormond leading the wildlings) going to protect the Wall.  It will be at that point that the handful of NW that are still alive realize that this is what MUST be done, not because Jon had a good heart, but because it will be the only way to win.

 

I mean on the show the NW is done to less than 50 men and there is no sign of a single lord supporting them (I think Tyrion was the last one on the show that even talked about sending them more men).  Partnering with the wildlings to hunt food, rebuild the shelters along the wall, and fight when the time comes is really the only option that even makes sense other than to just abandon your oaths and run for Dorne.

[GreyBunny]

I'll play.

A couple of other narratively-plausible reasons for Jon returning north of the Wall are that:

We know the Night's Watch would clear the forest for a couple of hundred Yards north of the Wall to prevent the Wildlings from sneaking up on them. This barren track might've provided an easier passage for the number of people Jon was bringing back than the presumably undeveloped land immediately south of the Wall;

Or, with the Boltons in charge in the North, the loyalties of the clans there might be uncertain and Jon didn't want to run the risk of getting hijacked and having the Free Folk he just rescued taken to Winterfell and flayed

I think I'll take my chances with miles of uncleared stickerbrush or northerners with wobbly loyalties than risk getting run up upon by MASSIVE HORDES OF RELENTLESS UNDEAD ZOMBIES.  Had the Night's King caught up to that un-merry band of hikers they would have all been killed.

OF COURSE, I realize the true reason was for D&D to give us the tense "will he or won't he" scene between Sir Alliser and Jon. In fact, Alliser has gotten a bit of a redemption arc this season, which has me wondering if he'll end up taking a knife for Jon by thwarting Olly's assassination attempt.

 

Yup.  I like that Thorne so far is on an redemption arc, he has the barest grudging respect for Jon (and Jon respects him) and he's done his duty by being honest and warning Jon that he hasn't successfully made his case to the men and bad things can happen. I hope the season closes out with Thorne arresting and holding or even killing Ollie (I think the kid will get his stab on).

[hammaboo]

I have absolutely no idea.  If Dany's advisors just leave Meereen in chaos, it speaks very poorly of the whole Meereenese arc.  It implies that, in future, whenever things don't go Dany's way, she and her followers will just ragequit.  On the other hand, I can't see the show lingering for very long in Meereen.  There's no battle with outside forces that needs to be resolved.  As for Meereen's inner conflict, Hizdahr's death means that there are no known Meereenese characters left to engage with.  Anyway, the show's overall truncation of the Meereen storyline implies that they'd rather conclude it and bring Dany to Westeros.

 

I'm just left confused as to whether the writers think we're supposed to like Dany at the end of all this.  She freed the slaves, which was great, but she made so many mistakes afterwards that I can't help feeling she's been shown to be a better conqueror than a ruler.

 

Fanwank:  Dany's a great conqueror, Tyrion is a great ruler.  We may see another wedding in the future!

 

But honestly, (I think) she was only a great conqueror because she had what was left of the Dothraki crew, the Unsullied as warriors and the fascination of the people over her dragons.  She left her warriors behind here, not knowing what would happen. 

 

Yes, she doesn't know (didn't know in the books) that she would be flown a long way away from them.  Granted in the books she was much younger, so the mistake making was more acceptable (again, to me) but I don't know where they go with this in order to wrap it up in a somewhat neat package.  And no matter how Mereen gets finished out, I still don't have a clue about how GRRM or the show plans to get her to the Seven Kingdoms, unless they have Drogon fly her there in the show - because in the books we know that Drogon flies to the Dothraki grasslands, basically where she started.     

[lovetowrite73]

 

she had what was left of the Dothraki crew

 

...where the hell are the rest of her Dothraki crew???

[Notwisconsin]

in a tavern, near a cavern, sucking up large vats of wine.....

 

Ain't it frustrating that they caught up with most of the books......

Edited June 9, 2015 by Notwisconsin

[The Mormegil]

...where the hell are the rest of her Dothraki crew???

 

You see the odd one occasionally. When she had that slave who disobeyed her executed it was a couple of Dothraki that escorted him to his death.

[Miles]

Of course, since the average life span of human beings in medieval Europe (which is the template Martin used for Westeros) is about 28-29, technically a 14 year old is middle aged.

The average life span was brought down by high infant mortality though.

The life span of pre-historic humans was about 60 when you don't consider infant mortality. Not sure how it was in the midle ages. I know it went down somewhat after farming was invented (very one-sided nutrition-wise) but I don't think it went actually down to 29. Probably if you had the misfortune to live at a time when the black death was rampant, but that doesn't seem to be a thing in westeros.

[benteen]

If Jon has to be stabbed and resurrected for narrative reasons - I suspect Alliser is going to have to pick up Jon's mantle, punish those who betrayed Jon, and keep the wildling alliance (with Tormond leading the wildlings) going to protect the Wall.  It will be at that point that the handful of NW that are still alive realize that this is what MUST be done, not because Jon had a good heart, but because it will be the only way to win.

 

I mean on the show the NW is done to less than 50 men and there is no sign of a single lord supporting them (I think Tyrion was the last one on the show that even talked about sending them more men).  Partnering with the wildlings to hunt food, rebuild the shelters along the wall, and fight when the time comes is really the only option that even makes sense other than to just abandon your oaths and run for Dorne.

 

The Night's Watch being down to 50 men is another thing that doesn't quite make sense because the Shadow Tower and Eastwatch have both been mentioned.  We've even seen the commander of the Shadow Tower, Ser Denys, this season.  If the Night's Watch is really down to 49 men, does that mean there are only 16 men per castle?  Or is it just Castle Black that's down to 50 men?  If there are only 49 members of the Night's Watch left, that makes the mutineers (and I think it had to be more than Olly to make this storyline work) even more stupid for not wanting the Wildlings to join up with them.

[nksarmi]

See I can't remember how many men of the Night's Watch are left in the books, but I have been thinking for several episodes what the hell are they all bitching about? They have less than 50 men (because you know a couple of them had to die at Hardhome) to fight the undead and Winter is here!

 

How many among the NW know how to hunt? 

How many know how to build? 

How many know how to cook?

Do any of them know medicine or herbs or how to bind a wound?

Forget all the fighters - the wildlings will undoubtably have other skills the men at the Wall need.

 

At this point, I'm not sure Jon shouldn't just say "screw the vows - if any man wants to marry a wildling and she'll have him - go for it.  Make families, be happy....but rebuild the other castles and train like hell.  Learn their ways of hunting and killing and teach them ours.  Because when the time comes, everyone fights so that no one dies." 

 

Because really if the NW is less than 50 men, it's dead anyway - time to start something new!
 

[WearyTraveler]

In the books, when Jon first reaches the Wall, they say that there are only 1,000 men, in total, in the NW.

 

I think that by the time we get to DwD, they are down to around half that number, but I'm not completely sure.  The show is vague on this number.  When the Wildlings were coming to attack Castle Black, they made it seem as if their numbers were seriously down, but in the last episode there were a lot of extras dressed all in black in the background.  I guess they are vague because it's convenient to have less crows during a dire battle, and more when it comes to mutiny.

Edited June 9, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Philbert]

 

Probably if you had the misfortune to live at a time when the black death was rampant, but that doesn't seem to be a thing in westeros.

 

I can't remember if there was plague loose in the books or not but there's been no mention of it on the show. They've actually glossed over a lot of the death and utter destruction that  was left in the wake of the War of Five Kings, something that Martin spends an awful lot of time (emphasis on the world awful) wading through the details. I seem to remember Brienne wandering around a lot in AFFC noting how smashed up everything is.

[desmond]

See I can't remember how many men of the Night's Watch are left in the books, but I have been thinking for several episodes what the hell are they all bitching about? They have less than 50 men (because you know a couple of them had to die at Hardhome) to fight the undead and Winter is here!

-----

Because really if the NW is less than 50 men, it's dead anyway - time to start something new!

 

 

They tend to gloss over this a bit in the show, but there actually remain at this point 3 manned castles along the wall, Castle Black being only one of them. And I do believe that Jon Snow was actually going to send Janos Slynt and a few other men to a 4th castle to prepare it to be used as well, before he disagreed and lost his head for it. So after the Wildling assault on Castle Black, THEY are down to 50 men, but presumably Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower have at least a couple hundred men between them. 

[Umbelina]

Greyscale:  http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Greyscale

 

Now I'm beginning to wonder if Jorah holding hands with Dany wasn't just a heart-touching moment of comradely, love, and forgiveness, but if, in fact, Jorah just condemned Dany to the disease?  It's a pretty grey area.

 

Fire and Ice, and we've always assumed the Dragons are the fire side of that equation, but what if it really is The Red God?  Probably not, but...

[Misplaced]

Hey folks

 

Long time lurker (from the TWoP days, even), first time poster (although I think I posted on TWoP in 2005).  This last episode has driven me to post, so lucky you guys!

 

Jon at the Wall:  Is it possible in show!Westeros that Hardhome, or the path to Hardhome, is north of the Wall?  I ask only because Karsi (wonderful, fabulous, so of course dead, Karsi) says to Jon when the attack starts "Will they let [my kids] through the Wall if you're not there?"  

 

Meryn as teenage-girl-o'phile:  Direct set-up from the "Mercy" chapter from TWoW, released sometime in the last year.  (I think someone up-thread mentioned this point.)  Ralf is a paedo.  Arya/Mercy plays on it.  That chapter is all KINDS of creepy and made my skin crawl.  

 

Which brings me to my point, which is: this episode really got to me, and I was spoiled about Shireen ahead of time.  It made me think more about something I've been pondering since Sansa in Ep 7 (or was it 6?), which is (are) the books themselves.  Horrible, awful, terrible things are constantly happening to every kind of people in the books. Wretched, hateful, horrific things.  We start out with an 8 year old boy being tossed out the window because he happened to stumble on Twincest.  We see a boy chased and hacked down for beating the wrong person in a game.  We see children as torturer (Joffrey) and tortured (Sansa), and Joffrey is pulling the wings off flies except well, those flies are people ... Ned is beheaded in front of his child, we see Theon burn the miller's children, women chased down and torn apart by dogs, the Red Wedding, Oberyn's head squished, Theon tortured, Selyse burning her brother, Lysa pushed out a window, Jeyne Poole -- good lord, what happens to poor Jeyne Poole -- and it just goes on and on and ON.  

 

I get that Martin is all about The Grimdark and showing that horrible things happen to good people and all that jazz, but somehow SEEING it on screen this season, with Sansa raped and Shireen burned, is making me think Martin is one seriously twisted human being.  Don't get me wrong -- I'm going to keep watching (it's incredibly good television) and in spite of the trainwrecks that were AFFC and ADWD I will read the rest of the books (if ever published) -- because I want to know what happens -- but I'm starting to wonder if I'M not as twisted as he is.  I can't just read through Jeyne Poole and think "oh well it's a minor character, isn't Ramsey awful" anymore.  I'm seeing Sansa!  Why am I reading this stuff?  Why do I think it's worth reading and dwelling on and talking about?  Is Martin the fantasy version of the Marquis de Sade?  

 

So maybe that's good, what D&D have done, to make me pay attention.  There was an article in the Independent (here: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-shireen-death-showrunner-explain-why-stannis-baratheon-had-to-sacrifice-his-daughter-in-season-5-episode-9-10304780.html) where Dan Weiss says "uh, why aren't people reacting badly to the ten thousand horrible things that have happened so far?" and I think he nails it.*

 

Anyway, that's my ramble, but Shireen really, really got inside my head.  Kerry Ingram and Dillane and Fitzgerald just ran away with that scene.  

 

*Cr@p...I just did a quick search for a FAQ to see if I could post a link and I couldn't find one, so my apologies if I just broke the posting rules. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by Misplaced

[Holmbo]

I'm late to the discussion. Just watched the episode and I honestly feel I don't enjoy this show anymore. When Dany flew with Drogon I felt nothing.

It feels so weird because I really had high hopes for this season. I've understood the reasoning for most of the changes in the show adaption before and I thought now in this season it would be easier for them to make the changes fit into the story because they have less source material to adhere to.

I liked the beginning of the season and even though some of the set up didn't really make sense (for example Sansa in Winterfell) I expected the resulting plot to be worth it. But now it's episode nine and none of the changes have given us anything. Sansa in WF, Jaime in Dorne. Nothing for them all season.

And now Shireen. I know she might die in the books and Stannis might be the one to do it there too. But if that is the case the show runners decided to have it happen earlier. For what reason? As shocking as some of the deaths in the series has been they've always served to drive the plot forward. What is the plot purpose for this death? Considering the non existent pay off for the other invented stuff this season I don't expect the Shireen burning to have any irreplaceable impact and that make it feel so utterly pointless to me in a way that nothing has before on this show.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Holmbo

[Pogojoco]

Hey folks

 

Long time lurker (from the TWoP days, even), first time poster (although I think I posted on TWoP in 2005).  This last episode has driven me to post, so lucky you guys!

 

Jon at the Wall:  Is it possible in show!Westeros that Hardhome, or the path to Hardhome, is north of the Wall?  I ask only because Karsi (wonderful, fabulous, so of course dead, Karsi) says to Jon when the attack starts "Will they let [my kids] through the Wall if you're not there?"  

 

Meryn as teenage-girl-o'phile:  Direct set-up from the "Mercy" chapter from TWoW, released sometime in the last year.  (I think someone up-thread mentioned this point.)  Ralf is a paedo.  Arya/Mercy plays on it.  That chapter is all KINDS of creepy and made my skin crawl.  

 

Which brings me to my point, which is: this episode really got to me, and I was spoiled about Shireen ahead of time.  It made me think more about something I've been pondering since Sansa in Ep 7 (or was it 6?), which is (are) the books themselves.  Horrible, awful, terrible things are constantly happening to every kind of people in the books. Wretched, hateful, horrific things.  We start out with an 8 year old boy being tossed out the window because he happened to stumble on Twincest.  We see a boy chased and hacked down for beating the wrong person in a game.  We see children as torturer (Joffrey) and tortured (Sansa), and Joffrey is pulling the wings off flies except well, those flies are people ... Ned is beheaded in front of his child, we see Theon burn the miller's children, women chased down and torn apart by dogs, the Red Wedding, Oberyn's head squished, Theon tortured, Selyse burning her brother, Lysa pushed out a window, Jeyne Poole -- good lord, what happens to poor Jeyne Poole -- and it just goes on and on and ON.  

 

I get that Martin is all about The Grimdark and showing that horrible things happen to good people and all that jazz, but somehow SEEING it on screen this season, with Sansa raped and Shireen burned, is making me think Martin is one seriously twisted human being.  Don't get me wrong -- I'm going to keep watching (it's incredibly good television) and in spite of the trainwrecks that were AFFC and ADWD I will read the rest of the books (if ever published) -- because I want to know what happens -- but I'm starting to wonder if I'M not as twisted as he is.  I can't just read through Jeyne Poole and think "oh well it's a minor character, isn't Ramsey awful" anymore.  I'm seeing Sansa!  Why am I reading this stuff?  Why do I think it's worth reading and dwelling on and talking about?  Is Martin the fantasy version of the Marquis de Sade?  

 

So maybe that's good, what D&D have done, to make me pay attention.  There was an article in the Independent (here: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-shireen-death-showrunner-explain-why-stannis-baratheon-had-to-sacrifice-his-daughter-in-season-5-episode-9-10304780.html) where Dan Weiss says "uh, why aren't people reacting badly to the ten thousand horrible things that have happened so far?" and I think he nails it.*

 

Anyway, that's my ramble, but Shireen really, really got inside my head.  Kerry Ingram and Dillane and Fitzgerald just ran away with that scene.  

 

*Cr@p...I just did a quick search for a FAQ to see if I could post a link and I couldn't find one, so my apologies if I just broke the posting rules. 

 

Hardhome is most definitely north of the Wall, but Eastwatch by the Sea is where they sailed to/ from Hardhome. It's at the end of the Wall. 

 

Edited June 10, 2015 by Pogojoco

[Bill1978]

And now Shireen. I know she might die in the books and Stannis might be the one to do it there too. But if that is the case the show runners decided to have it happen earlier. For what reason? As shocking as some of the deaths in the series has been they've always served to drive the plot forward. What is the plot purpose for this death? Considering the non existent pay off for the other invented stuff this season I don't expect the Shireen burning to have any irreplaceable impact and that make it feel so utterly pointless to me in a way that nothing has before on this show.

If I'm remembering correctly, the sacrifice of King's blood is needed to stop the current blizzard preventing Stannis from marching. In theory we shouldn't see the pay off until next episode. If Melisandre is correct, the current blizzard should magically disappear cause of the sacrifice of Shireen, allowing Stannis to march forward to Winterfell and defeat the Boltons. And I can't remember what she said exactly in the preview for next week, but it definitely sounds like the blizzard has stopped.

[Pickles Aplenty]

I have suspected Stannis will die before series' end, and if he does, I hope he realizes, to his horror, that he burned his only child alive for nothing.  Please, please, please let this happen. *fingers crossed*

[Pogojoco]

Its not that I don't like Tyrion or root for him, because I actually do. I just think its annoying that anything he did or said in the book that could be construed as "bad" gets wiped away, or placed on other people, whereas we get Stannis killing his daughter, and Jaimie killing his cousin, and other "bad" stuff, because they aren't the creators favorite character. If I have any real issue with Show Tyron, its that he`s a bit less complex than Book Tyron, who I still like and root for, even with his various bad acts. He is basically always written as the best guy in the room, unlike the books, where he can frequently falter, even if he tries to do the right thing. 

I also think that Show Jon is pretty much Book Jon. So nobody is labelling him "Saint Jon" because he's just not that different than the kid Martin created. If he's "Saint" Jon, he's been that in the books. 

 

I'm don't even really think Show Tyrion has been that polished up, though I appreciate that argument. But I do agree he's a little less "grey" than in the books. And that he is D & D's favourite- so if they can skew something to favour him, they will. 

[desmond]

I have suspected Stannis will die before series' end, and if he does, I hope he realizes, to his horror, that he burned his only child alive for nothing.  Please, please, please let this happen. *fingers crossed*

 

I agree, that would be at least some justice, knowing that he brutally murdered his sweet little girl for absolutely no reason.

 

I wanted to chime in on the whole issue of Dany flying away on Drogon; many seem to be under the impression that her abandoning her men was selfish and inconsiderate, but what you're forgetting is the whole reason they are in that situation, they are fighting for HER. Dany escaping to safety is EXACTLY what they wanted. Their own safety was entirely secondary at that moment. Plus, I think that Drogon had sufficiently evened the odds such that the Harpies would have reconsidered whether fighting Jorah, Daario and a bunch of angry Unsullied was actually the best use of their time.

[InsertWordHere]

Regarding the show numbers of the Night's Watch, I went back and counted the votes cast during the Lord Commander election scene. It looks like there were around 70 or 80 votes cast. Since then, they've lost Slynt, Aemon, and an unnamed number at Hardhome. There's at least forty or fifty Night's Watchmen present at Castle Black during the voting scene, but that would leave only around 15 or 20 people at Shadow and Eastwatch, assuming their votes were cast by proxy. IDK, maybe in the show, only people present at Castle Black during the election get to vote for Lord Commander. In the books, the garrison commanders of those not present are allowed to cast the vote for them.

Edited June 10, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Hecate7]

The Game of Thrones books have always been a dark, violent, gritty fantasy.  It's an unglamorous story in a lot of ways.  But I do think as the show has gone on, D&D have been adding a lot of shocking things for the sake of being shocking.

 

Agreed about Tyrion.  I get why certain things about him were toned down and why they want to create a guy the audience can root for.  But they've whitewashed ALL of his negative personality traits and actions, rendering him an increasingly one-dimensional character.  It's only Peter Dinklage's performance and charisma that has made the character work so well on television.  There are many times were Tyrion is "the best guy in the room" but he has enough flaws and issues were you wouldn't at times want him in charge of anything.

 

As I've said before, the Meryn Trant pedophile thing is, like Ramsay's wedding night, straight from GRRM's writing. 

 

Oh, plenty of people still think Tyrion is beneath contempt for marrying Sansa instead of letting Tywin dispose of him in some weird way instead, or for not fleeing with Shae when he had the chance. That still happened. He still strangled Shae. He killed Tywin. He gave the Mountain tribes a weapons upgrade. He said something to Theon Greyjoy that might actually have led to the betrayal of Robb Stark. He slapped the shit out of Joffrey, which might have led directly to the attempt on Bran's life. Even on the show he's not a Saint. Just because he hasn't actually raped anyone, and didn't kill Shae purely out of anger, doesn't mean there's no complexity to him.

 

And apparently he's about to help the villain conquer the world.

 

I'm loving the way he looks at Danaerys. Anyone else wonder if there's going to be something between them? I kind of hope not, actually, because that would really upset Jorah.

 

I'm cutting Danaerys some slack for riding off on Drogon. She IS special because she can fly away on a dragon. Drogon is one of three dragons in the entire world, and he loves her. Danaerys isn't a fighter and she owns no buses or jeeps, so she really didn't have any choice but to get out of there and make sure Drogon got out of there.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Hecate7

[anamika]

I also think that Show Jon is pretty much Book Jon. So nobody is labelling him "Saint Jon" because he's just not that different than the kid Martin created. If he's "Saint" Jon, he's been that in the books. 

 

 

Jon in the books is slightly grey. He seperated Gilly from her baby on threat of death. He takes Wildling children as hostages and is ready to chop of their heads if push comes to shove. And ADWD was pretty much him starting to play the game of thrones by getting involved in matters of the realm: Giving Stannis strategic advice, sending Mance on a secret mission, marrying Alys to the Thenns etc. And finally setting off for Winterfell with hordes of Wildllings.

 

I don't think he is getting deliberately whitewashed in the show though. Since they rewrote the fake Arya plot, Jon does not have incentive to break his oaths and they don't have a lot of time to delve into the politics and administration of the Night's Watch since they need that time to explore Grey Worm and Missandei's tender love story and Bronn's one liners.

[Dev F]

I agree, that would be at least some justice, knowing that he brutally murdered his sweet little girl for absolutely no reason.

 

I'm not sure I want Stannis's lesson to be "You shouldn't sacrifice your daughter to a bloodthirsty god, because it won't do anything useful." That suggests that it would be okay to sacrifice her if you could be assured of a beneficial result. I think a more fitting consequence would be if Shireen's death does bring Stannis success just as Melisandre predicted -- but it proves harder for him to live with than failure and ruin.

[Holmbo]

If I'm remembering correctly, the sacrifice of King's blood is needed to stop the current blizzard preventing Stannis from marching. In theory we shouldn't see the pay off until next episode. If Melisandre is correct, the current blizzard should magically disappear cause of the sacrifice of Shireen, allowing Stannis to march forward to Winterfell and defeat the Boltons. And I can't remember what she said exactly in the preview for next week, but it definitely sounds like the blizzard has stopped.

I don't think that counts as a plot reason. In the book they don't have Shireen to burn so she can't be essential to the outcome of the battle. I'm thinking they maybe burn Asha in the books. And that is very different.

[Misplaced]

Hardhome is most definitely north of the Wall, but Eastwatch by the Sea is where they sailed to/ from Hardhome. It's at the end of the Wall. 

 

 

 

Yeah, sorry, that totally didn't come out right.  I was focusing on Karsi's question, which indicated the way back to south of the wall was through the gate.  

 

Anyway.  Cool picture. 

[placate]

Can someone tell me where GRRM told D&D that Shireen is going to be burnt in the books?  I've seen this claim a few times but I haven't seen any links.  It seems kinda weird to me because Stannis loves his daughter and in the books there is a ton of King's blood running around.

[Oscirus]

Greyscale:  http://gameofthrones.../wiki/Greyscale

 

Maybe there's different ways to interpret the following

 

 

Greyscale is extremely infectious, spread through touch contact with an infected person, or even spread on unsterilized objects that have been touched by the infected.

But from what I get, those touches between Dany and Jorah and Dany and Missandei mean some big big trouble. Also what better way to spread the disease then to have Dany spread it on her way to conquering Westeros.

 

I'm not sure I want Stannis's lesson to be "You shouldn't sacrifice your daughter to a bloodthirsty god, because it won't do anything useful." That suggests that it would be okay to sacrifice her if you could be assured of a beneficial result. I think a more fitting consequence would be if Shireen's death does bring Stannis success just as Melisandre predicted -- but it proves harder for him to live with than failure and ruin.

 

 

That would be the perfect ending. I'd also like for him to get his throne but for it to ultimately be meaningless because who's going to follow a dreaded kinslayer? Full circle!

 

didn't kill Shae purely out of anger, doesn't mean there's no complexity to him.

 

 

I would disagree that was definitely pure anger. Even if she did grab for the knife in self defense, he didn't have to attack her.

 

 

 

 

 

[Misplaced]

I don't think that counts as a plot reason. In the book they don't have Shireen to burn so she can't be essential to the outcome of the battle. I'm thinking they maybe burn Asha in the books. And that is very different.

 

Or Theon.  He's in Stannis' camp in the released chapter from TWoW.  

[Misplaced]

Can someone tell me where GRRM told D&D that Shireen is going to be burnt in the books?  I've seen this claim a few times but I haven't seen any links.  It seems kinda weird to me because Stannis loves his daughter and in the books there is a ton of King's blood running around.

 

It's in HBO's Inside the Episode:  

Around 1:33.

[Avaleigh]

It really didn't strike me until now that Jorah has betrayed Dany for the second time in the worst way that he possibly can. I want to feel sorry for him but I just can't at this point anymore. He knows perfectly well what he has and he apparently doesn't care about exposing other people. I think it's entirely possible that Daario and Missandei have already been infected. I don't think it'll be a problem for Dany or Tyrion but I'm even concerned about Dany's Unsullied at this point. When are they going to find out? For all Jorah knows he could start showing signs in more obvious places. Does he really want to be remembered as the guy who started a greyscale epidemic? His "love" for Daenerys is probably going to get a bunch of people killed. 

[Mya Stone]

After watching this episode for the third time (I'm on summer break, k?), it struck me that there is a direct parallel between the families of Jon, Dany, and Stannis, and how they lead:

Jon: disappoints his brothers (and surrogate son figure in Olly?) by choosing to save people outside of his "family."

Dany: chooses to save her "son." Knows that he is, without a doubt, important to her. Makes the choice to save him, leaving her people in a quandary. (Although

not really, as we see in next week's preview they all make it out of the ring just fine.

)

Stannis: chooses to sacrifice his daughter for the "greater good." I put greater good in parenthesis because his motive is purely driven by his/Mel's visions and how they must come to pass.

They all had to make the hard choice. But which one made the right choice?

[benteen]

Oh, plenty of people still think Tyrion is beneath contempt for marrying Sansa instead of letting Tywin dispose of him in some weird way instead, or for not fleeing with Shae when he had the chance. That still happened. He still strangled Shae. He killed Tywin. He gave the Mountain tribes a weapons upgrade. He said something to Theon Greyjoy that might actually have led to the betrayal of Robb Stark. He slapped the shit out of Joffrey, which might have led directly to the attempt on Bran's life. Even on the show he's not a Saint. Just because he hasn't actually raped anyone, and didn't kill Shae purely out of anger, doesn't mean there's no complexity to him.

 

And apparently he's about to help the villain conquer the world.

 

I'm loving the way he looks at Danaerys. Anyone else wonder if there's going to be something between them? I kind of hope not, actually, because that would really upset Jorah.

 

I'm cutting Danaerys some slack for riding off on Drogon. She IS special because she can fly away on a dragon. Drogon is one of three dragons in the entire world, and he loves her. Danaerys isn't a fighter and she owns no buses or jeeps, so she really didn't have any choice but to get out of there and make sure Drogon got out of there.

 

Agreed about Dany.  She's a strong character but completely useless in a fight.  Getting her to safe ground is important to do.

 

On the show, Tyrion only killed Shae because she went for a knife.  He was defending himself so they completely took away anything that made him look bad.  I think on both the book and show Tyrion's killing of Tywin was murder although I understand why he did what he did and Tywin had it coming.  I will say, they did make Tyrion's killing of Tywin a little more unjustified on the show by taking away the reveal about Tysha.  You could make a defense of Tyrion killing Tywin as temporary insanity when he learned about Tysha and that sent him really over the edge.  So in that case, they made his killing Tywin a little less justified. 

Edited June 10, 2015 by benteen

[benteen]

It really didn't strike me until now that Jorah has betrayed Dany for the second time in the worst way that he possibly can. I want to feel sorry for him but I just can't at this point anymore. He knows perfectly well what he has and he apparently doesn't care about exposing other people. I think it's entirely possible that Daario and Missandei have already been infected. I don't think it'll be a problem for Dany or Tyrion but I'm even concerned about Dany's Unsullied at this point. When are they going to find out? For all Jorah knows he could start showing signs in more obvious places. Does he really want to be remembered as the guy who started a greyscale epidemic? His "love" for Daenerys is probably going to get a bunch of people killed. 

 

This.  I understand the decisioin to have Jorah be the one infected with greyscale.  But I am troubled at the thought of Jorah being the one to spread it and kill so many people.  Book Jorah I could see not caring about the consequences.  His love for Dany is much more unhealthy there and he refuses to take responsibility for his own actions.  But TV Jorah has been a more nobler character though his unhealthy Dany obsession (while somewhat hilarious) has really been ratched up this season.  I don't believe he deliberately infected Dany but how could he not consider the risk to her?  He saved her life but it might be impossible for her to forgive him for doing this. 

 

I do think Dany holding hands with Missandi was to show that she had passed it on to her.

[proserpina65]

The Night's Watch being down to 50 men is another thing that doesn't quite make sense because the Shadow Tower and Eastwatch have both been mentioned.

 

My impression is that the Night's Watch was down to 50 men AT CASTLE BLACK after the battle at the Wall, not 50 men total.  There should still be men at Shadow Tower and Eastwatch by the Sea, in addition to those 50 at Castle Black.  There certainly seemed to be more when they were voting for the new Lord Commander, presumably because some came from the other forts and have now returned to those forts.  Of course, that is now minus any killed at Hardhome.

 

Or what Desmond said.

Edited June 10, 2015 by proserpina65

[proserpina65]

I don't think that counts as a plot reason. In the book they don't have Shireen to burn so she can't be essential to the outcome of the battle. I'm thinking they maybe burn Asha in the books. And that is very different.

Well, to be fair, the sixth book hasn't come out yet, and for all we know, they do burn Shireen for exactly this reason.  From what I've read in the media, the burning DOES happen but no one's said anything about when, in regards to the timeline of Stannis' march on Winterfell.

[BlackberryJam]

After watching this episode for the third time (I'm on summer break, k?), it struck me that there is a direct parallel between the families of Jon, Dany, and Stannis, and how they lead:

Jon: disappoints his brothers (and surrogate son figure in Olly?) by choosing to save people outside of his "family."

Dany: chooses to save her "son." Knows that he is, without a doubt, important to her. Makes the choice to save him, leaving her people in a quandary. (Although

not really, as we see in next week's preview they all make it out of the ring just fine.

)

Stannis: chooses to sacrifice his daughter for the "greater good." I put greater good in parenthesis because his motive is purely driven by his/Mel's visions and how they must come to pass.

They all had to make the hard choice. But which one made the right choice?

 

Just want to throw in that we have seen Dany sacrifice a child, or a potential child. She saw it as a child though, when she sacrifice RhaegoFetus to bring back Drogo and it failed miserably. So Dany now choosing Drogon over her guard is ...trying something new? Not sure how to interpret it. But yeah, Dany and Stannis are parallel here.

[desmond]

Dany: chooses to save her "son." Knows that he is, without a doubt, important to her. Makes the choice to save him, leaving her people in a quandary.

I think it's important to point out that Dany didn't sacrifice anyone in the fighting pit, she flew Drogon (and herself) to safety, which is exactly what Jorah, Daario and the rest of her men wanted anyway, for her to live. If she made Drogon stay and fight and keep getting wounded by spears, possibly killed, that would not have been a good outcome. Her presence was the only reason the Harpies were even attacking.

[Dev F]

On the show, Tyrion only killed Shae because she went for a knife.  He was defending himself so they completely took away anything that made him look bad. 

 

While it's clear that they added the knife-pull to make the act less cold-blooded, that doesn't make it purely self-defense. If you barge uninvited into someone's room and an invited guest grabs for a knife, you're not allowed to just strangle her in bed when you could just as easily disengage and run away.

[Funzlerks]

I find it hugely problematic that Daenerys's troops fight for her. Her big idea is that even though she has only superficial knowledge of Westeros, she deserves to fly dragons, land thousands of mercenaries, and bring insane Drothakies in to "crush the wheel" because she presumes that she is better than the rest. Why? Because she abhors slavery? Pretty much all of Westeros was there a thousand years ago. She speaks platitudes about peace and different ways when she possesses medieval nukes. Good leaders are followed because they have good ideas - like Jon, and Ned, and even Robert Baratheon at a time. Bad leaders often rely on cults of personality - like Stannis. Look what his men were willing to do because they fought for him and The Lord of the Light.

Jon would never presume to think that his men fought for him, they fight for survival, to protect the realm, out of duty. He fights with them. To me, Daenerys presumes the same things Stannis and Cersei and Joffrey presume - their Divine right to rule. They'd burn the world if they felt like it.

And I wonder if Tyrion at this point fights for her, or why he would, and why he wouldn't want to get the hell away from Daenerys after what she did.

[Constantinople]

If I'm remembering correctly, the sacrifice of King's blood is needed to stop the current blizzard preventing Stannis from marching. In theory we shouldn't see the pay off until next episode. If Melisandre is correct, the current blizzard should magically disappear cause of the sacrifice of Shireen, allowing Stannis to march forward to Winterfell and defeat the Boltons. And I can't remember what she said exactly in the preview for next week, but it definitely sounds like the blizzard has stopped.

 

 

I don't think that counts as a plot reason. In the book they don't have Shireen to burn so she can't be essential to the outcome of the battle.

But do we know that before the next book is out? Does Shireen actually need to be with the army, or is it enough to torch her at the Wall?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't remember the details in the last published books, and therefore how much room this leaves to burn Shireen.

Edited to change your to you're.

 

I'm thinking they maybe burn Asha in the books. And that is very different.

From Melisandre's perspective, Asha has Usurpersblood, not Kingsblood.

Would Usurpersblood be good enough?

Edited June 10, 2015 by Constantinople

[Haleth]

I agree, that would be at least some justice, knowing that he brutally murdered his sweet little girl for absolutely no reason.

 

I wanted to chime in on the whole issue of Dany flying away on Drogon; many seem to be under the impression that her abandoning her men was selfish and inconsiderate, but what you're forgetting is the whole reason they are in that situation, they are fighting for HER. Dany escaping to safety is EXACTLY what they wanted. Their own safety was entirely secondary at that moment. Plus, I think that Drogon had sufficiently evened the odds such that the Harpies would have reconsidered whether fighting Jorah, Daario and a bunch of angry Unsullied was actually the best use of their time.

  

That is a good point. Other than Tyrion and Missandei, they were doing their job.

I don't think he is getting deliberately whitewashed in the show though. Since they rewrote the fake Arya plot, Jon does not have incentive to break his oaths and they don't have a lot of time to delve into the politics and administration of the Night's Watch since they need that time to explore Grey Worm and Missandei's tender love story and Bronn's one liners.

and boobs. Don't forget the required boob time.