S05.E09: The Dance of Dragons

[benteen]

A poster elsewhere said it best.  Stannis held his brother's castle for an entire year while his men starve.  NOW he's ready to throw in the towel and burn his daughter?

[Philbert]

 

But on TV? Awful. One of the biggest missteps IMO of a great show. I mean, come on, that fight sequence was ridiculous - 3 sand snakes being matched by one swordsman and a one handed Jamie?

 

It hasn't been good, and I don't think anybody will argue that point. But I'm constantly amazed at people jumping up to defend a Feast For Crows this year when this is the first time I've EVER met anybody who had one nice thing to say about it. Seriously, the guy who got me started on this series back in the 90s quit in disgust after he waiting 6 years for AFFC and it turned out to be....well, what it was. I can't even get him to watch the show he's still so pissed at Martin. I've been more or less defending Benioff and Weiss this season, simply because I understand how bad the source material is they are working with. The thing with Stannis and Shireen...well, I don't like it but to be brutally honest, that's the path that tv show Stannis has been going down since season two. He's not the hero of this story and he never was but he's not really a villain either, just a rather sad man who allowed his ambition to destroy him. This is basically the Agamemnon story with poor little Shireen as Iphigenia. Stannis is a dead man at this point. He should have just jumped in the fire himself but I won't blame Benioff and Weiss for it. I suspect they're working from unpublished material Martin has already given them. They are becoming rather convenient scapegoats for Martin's excesses. Hate this storyline if you want but it was good television. Excuse me now, I have to go stick my head in a barrel of bourbon. :(

Edited June 8, 2015 by Philbert

[Ambrosefolly]

On another note, we got visual confirmation that Tormund is the father of Karsi's 2 daughters, right? He might slaughter villages full of innocent town folk, but he has good taste in women.

[Athena]

Dorne has made Bronn and Jaime boring. Not good.

 

There goes my short lived admiration for TV Stannis. I don't think it would be shocking for Book Stannis to be honest. I didn't like him.

 

I loved the Mereen ending. The CGI looked lame when Dany got on the dragon, but who cares. Dragon!

[snowblossom2]

I know he doesn't think that, but shit, he just sacrificed his only child and heir to back his "claim."  I'm just saying if he were the loving father he claimed to be, he'd starting thinking, "You know Robert was a traitor to begin with and while we have a little Targ blood in us, maybe there is someone else I can back so my daughter can live."

 

My point is that Stannis has crossed the line from trying to take the throne away from an incest-made bastard to being as crazy as half the other players in this damn game.  At this point, I don't care if Dany DOES burn everything between Winterfell and Dorne as I love the Starks and Dorne does seem like the only place where they don't hurt little girls.

I REALLY don't want to defend Stannis, but I think what's missing here is that I think Stannis really believes in Mel's prophesies since the Kings died (which, why again is Balon still alive and why doesn't Stannis seemed concerned that Mel's leeches didn't full work?) so it's about a few things - ambition and the belief that this will help win the "bigger" war than the game of thrones

[Philbert]

 

A poster elsewhere said it best.  Stannis held his brother's castle for an entire year while his men starve.  NOW he's ready to throw in the towel and burn his daughter?

 

That was over 15 years ago. He's clearly not that man he was. Hell, he's not the man he was at the Battle of the Blackwater.

[trif]

I think the fact that there as so much debate about whether, and who, would burn Shireen ahead of time that it lessened the impact of it for me. Mance burning was more visceral for some reason, probably the way they shot the fire and his face. I'm really glad we were spared that for Shireen. Instead, the part that stuck with me most about that scene was how it seemed Stannis and Selyse were hiding from Shireen behind the crowd. I was afraid that Stannis would step forward and claim responsibility to Shireen's face.  We never got a reaction shot of Shireen seeing her father, so it seemed to me like he stayed hidden. I also noticed how Melisandre didn't tell Shireen that her father was behind it even when Shireen demanded to see her father. It seemed like a very small mercy on Melisandre's part.

 

My favorite part of Draznak's pit, aside from seeing Dany's interaction with Drogon, was the dialogue on the dais. I felt like it did a great job of showing how each character has an overall philosophy and how they all see injustice in the world and have a different take on it. At the same time, Dany's enjoyment of Dario's jabs at Hizdar came across as pretty juvenile to me.  It came across as, not just that Dany disagreed with Hizdar's world view and thought Dario was exposing his hypocrisy, but rather that Dany had zero respect for Hizdar as a person and was enjoying the pissing contest a bit too much. I had a strong reaction to the shot of his body lying on the dais and bleeding, because it seems that no one will mourn him or have any sympathy for what he was trying to do. 

[Pogojoco]

 And yes he does look like the Mayor of Munchkinland.

YES! That's who he reminded me of. 

 

And yeah, the whole point of the "too old" Meryn Trant scene, besides grossing us out, was to set up Arya as a stand in for his "fresh girl" and for her to kill him.

 

He was kind of checking her out- I didn't know if it was a "that sort of looks like Ned Stark's daughter, not the one I used to beat up, but the other one" or "hey, that's a girl not yet a woman" type checking out. 

 

And Mel does say that the fight in the North is bigger than all the other fights. If she is telling Stannis he is Azor Ahai, that that is who saves them from doom, I think that it goes beyond the Iron Throne for Stannis. Of course, he probably knows he'd get the Iron Throne by default. Melisandre, in the book, believes the White Walkers are the antithesis of R'Hollor, so the fight in the North is important to her, too. 

 

What happened was awful, but I also don't think he sees it as burning his only heir. He might marry again. He clearly thinks it's Selyse's issue, not his. The whole situation is definitely gross, though. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by Pogojoco

[GreyBunny]

The best moment for me was Dany taking Jorah's hand.  Then DRAGON!

[snowblossom2]

I think the fact that there as so much debate about whether, and who, would burn Shireen ahead of time that it lessened the impact of it for me. Mance burning was more visceral for some reason, probably the way they shot the fire and his face. I'm really glad we were spared that for Shireen. Instead, the part that stuck with me most about that scene was how it seemed Stannis and Selyse were hiding from Shireen behind the crowd. I was afraid that Stannis would step forward and claim responsibility to Shireen's face.  We never got a reaction shot of Shireen seeing her father, so it seemed to me like he stayed hidden. I also noticed how Melisandre didn't tell Shireen that her father was behind it even when Shireen demanded to see her father. It seemed like a very small mercy on Melisandre's part.

 

My favorite part of Draznak's pit, aside from seeing Dany's interaction with Drogon, was the dialogue on the dais. I felt like it did a great job of showing how each character has an overall philosophy and how they all see injustice in the world and have a different take on it. At the same time, Dany's enjoyment of Dario's jabs at Hizdar came across as pretty juvenile to me.  It came across as, not just that Dany disagreed with Hizdar's world view and thought Dario was exposing his hypocrisy, but rather that Dany had zero respect for Hizdar as a person and was enjoying the pissing contest a bit too much. I had a strong reaction to the shot of his body lying on the dais and bleeding, because it seems that no one will mourn him or have any sympathy for what he was trying to do.

Ever since someone brought up the parallel between Hizdar and Sansa, all I kept thinking during that scene was Sansa getting (verbally, not the physical part) taunted by Joffrey...

[Pogojoco]

On another note, we got visual confirmation that Tormund is the father of Karsi's 2 daughters, right? He might slaughter villages full of innocent town folk, but he has good taste in women.

Those kids are prettier than Jon Snow. ;) 

[nksarmi]

I REALLY don't want to defend Stannis, but I think what's missing here is that I think Stannis really believes in Mel's prophesies since the Kings died (which, why again is Balon still alive and why doesn't Stannis seemed concerned that Mel's leeches didn't full work?) so it's about a few things - ambition and the belief that this will help win the "bigger" war than the game of thrones

That doesn't make sense either.  I said somewhere else if Stannis cared about the bigger war, he would have stayed at the Wall and sent men to gather dragon glass and supported the Night's Watch will all he had.

 

I don't believe Stannis is a true believer in the Lord of Light or any prophesy.  I think he simply believes that Mel has power and "king's blood" lets her magic work.  I don't think it's a sense of fate that drives him to put his trust in her - she's just a tool that gets results which is why he was willing to burn Shirleen - the chance of getting results.  That scene between Stannis and Davos when he burned his brother in law told me all I need to know that Stannis doesn't believe in any religion or god.  He believes he deserves what one brother was too dim to keep and what the other brother wrongly tried to take from him.  He's totally Cain between Cain, Abel, and Seth.

[GreyBunny]

Regarding Jorah's greyscale, I think the scaly part is the infectious part. As long as someone doesn't touch the scales they're fine, at least that's how I'm wanking it so it makes sense. Jorah had his wrist well covered.

 

I can't wait to see Stannis realize he isn't Azor Ahai and that he murdered his daughter for nothing.

[candall]

God, yes. All I could think of in that scene was that there was NO safe place for her crotch.  :P

I noticed the queen rides her dragon sidesaddle, which I thought was a bit precious until the crotch/spikes question came up. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by candall

[benteen]

The thing is, Book Stannis wasn't really that much of a religious fanatic.  He threw in with Melisandre for political reasons, though I never understood why he decided to hook up with a Priestess who represented such a foreign religion in Westeros.  But the whole Red God thing was for political purposes, Stannis was never really a true believer.  Even when all three kings died in the books, he wasn't ready to believe in the Red God and legitimately struggled with the idea of burning Edric.  I think he would have burned Edric but at least he struggled with doing that.  In the show, Stannis is just a religious fanatic being who can't so much as wipe his ass without Melisandre telling him to do so.

 

Now, would Book Stannis burn Shireen if it brought him the throne?  It's a legitimate question to ask, especially since he doesn't seem as close to his daughter as he did on the show.  But just because that's a question doesn't mean we need it answered.  Especially when having Stannis doing it is just D&D creating controversy again just for the hell of it.

 

Whether he'll still be alive by then is one thing but I think the relationship with Davos is permanently destroyed now. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by benteen

[Oscirus]

It just seems weird to me that there was closeups of Dany grabbing Jorah's hand and Dany grabbing her translator's hand.

[InsertWordHere]

On another note, we got visual confirmation that Tormund is the father of Karsi's 2 daughters, right? He might slaughter villages full of innocent town folk, but he has good taste in women.

Red headed? Check. Holding Tormund's hand? Check. Not as pretty as Jon Snow? Check.

 

Yep. Confirmed.

[mac123x]

Hizdar was late to the show and said something like "I was making sure everything was prepared."  When the Sons of the Harpy attacked, I was sure that was what he was preparing... then he got stabbed.  Guess not.  In the books, I'm pretty sure the Green Grace is the leader of the Sons, but she's not on the show so I figured it'd be the only named Meereeneze person.  I guess they don't have a leader.

 

I didn't really understand their tactics either.  They started slaughtering randomly.  If they're trying to drive out the foreign conquerer, massacring civilians doesn't seem to be the way to win their support.

[GreyBunny]

I didn't really understand their tactics either.  They started slaughtering randomly.  If they're trying to drive out the foreign conquerer, massacring civilians doesn't seem to be the way to win their support.

Since the fighting was about honoring the queen, the Harpies probably thought that anyone who was a spectator was one of Dany's supporters.  Gather all of the fish in one barrel and start shooting.

[Greta]

 

 

Stannis wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms because of DUTY, not ambition.  Not that D&D could ever figure out anything when it comes to Stannis.

 

Yes, Book Stannis says so. Often. To others and probably himself.  So it must be true.

 

I've never been on the Stannis train because he thinks burning people alive is an acceptable tactic to achieve his goals. At least the Mad King has the mitigating factor of being actually crazy. Stannis is sane.

[WatchrTina]

I want Stannis' army to kill all the Boltons (especially Ramsey) with supernatural assistance so that Shireen's death was not a waste and then I want Brienne to kill Stannis and then I want everyone left standing in the North to bend the knee to Sansa, the Queen in the North, who with Brienne as Hand if the Queen will ride North to reinforce The Night Watch and defeat the White Walkers. Dany can help too by riding into town on the back of Drogon with her other children as her wing men and laying waste to Darth Maul the WhiteWaller King and all his minions. The Childrn of the Forest can mop up by burning any undead still twitching at the end of the fight. Bran can watch from his weirwood tree scope and offer advice. Rickon can be left to go totally feral until he find his way to the wall and becomes first ranger. Sansa will marry strategically. Maybe a Karstark. Maybe Harry the heir to the Vale. She will not marry Littlrfinger. Dany settles for the land below the neck except for the Vale and the Tully land which Sansa claims (Sweet Robin having met with an unfortunate accident.). Arya becomes a faceless man, kills everyone on her list. She goes feral as a free lance assassins specializing in Lannisters and their allies. D & D need to make this happen.

Edited June 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[ACW]

I was initially shocked at the lack of brothel nudity. I've now decided that it must mean that Arya will indeed end up on the menu there, and they wanted to establish precedent for the actress not being naked.

[Athena]

Now, would Book Stannis burn Shireen if it brought him the throne?  It's a legitimate question to ask, especially since he doesn't seem as close to his daughter as he did on the show.  But just because that's a question doesn't mean we need it answered.  Especially when having Stannis doing it is just D&D creating controversy again just for the hell of it.

 

I believe Book Stannis would have done it. I've never liked Book Stannis so I can see how he would give everything to be King (for duty or ambition who cares). He's very single minded about him being King.

[Rickster]

Regarding Jorah's greyscale, I think the scaly part is the infectious part. As long as someone doesn't touch the scales they're fine, at least that's how I'm wanking it so it makes sense. Jorah had his wrist well covered.

 

Don't know the answer to this one, but wanted to point out that Jorah has been touching a whole bunch of people ever since he got infected, not just Dany tonight.

[benteen]

I believe Book Stannis would have done it. I've never liked Book Stannis so I can see how he would give everything to be King (for duty or ambition who cares). He's very single minded about him being King.

 

I think he likely would have done it too.  But even if this was an upcoming spoiler, I suspect it will be Melisandre who does it herself.

[Tim Thomason]

I think the Harpies' original plan was to start off with a surprise assassination of the Queen, and then an all-out slaughter of her former supporters (including Hizdahr), before I guess taking back the city and installing whoever is their leader as the new ruler. Jorah kinda ruined the surprise attack, so they went straight for the slaughter and then did a good job of cornering the Queen and her entourage in the pits. And then the dragon showed up.

 

I guess Tyrion's in charge of Mereen now (assuming they don't all just abandon the city en masse). Not bad for his second day on the job.

[Andromeda]

I don't know if it's true but I've read that Shireen's death by fire is going to happen in the books as well.

In the "Inside the Episode" on HBO Go, one of the David's said "When George told us about" Shireen's fate,so yes, I expect this to end up in the books.

I loved the Drogon scene -- I've been looking forward to Drogon in the arena since I read the scene. My enjoyment was somewhat diminished by the Shireen scene, however. Very upsetting. Stannis sucks so bad, he deserves a gruesome death. And I wanted him to defeat the Boltons. Now I want them to take each other out.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Andromeda

[Black Knight]

Mostly I'm saying Melisandre believes she has an immediate need of a miracle.

I just don't see it. I know a lot of people want to believe that Stannis being part of Shireen's burning is all D&D's doing, but to me it doesn't make sense if only Mel and Selyse act without Stannis's knowledge. Stannis's involvement is foreshadowed by Camp Stannis's belief that he's Azor Ahai reborn - remember, Azor Ahai forges his sword by stabbing his beloved wife in the heart with it. Somebody else doesn't do it for him without his knowledge. And yeah, Stannis isn't actually Azor Ahai reborn, but Mel sacrificing Shireen for Jon would also not fit in with the AA legend, because again, she would be doing it without Jon being part of the decision. Plus, although she's a kid and therefore he would find it horrific, he has no personal connection to her. That's not how sacrifice works in narrative storytelling. That's why I always expected that Shireen would die with Stannis's full knowledge and approval and never have expected a Shireen sacrifice to play any part in Jon's future story. It would also be a cheat if Mel sacrificed Shireen to save Jon, because it would let people be happy that Jon was saved while being able to blame only Mel for the sacrifice of Shireen - people get to have their cake and eat it too, in other words, and GRRM doesn't go for that kind of convenient escape from morality.

 

But even though I believe Jon is AA reborn, I think there's foreshadowing in what Tyrion said to Dany tonight, "You can stop this." When Jon's AA Lightbringer moment comes (probably something to do with Arya), I expect him to reject it. Jon, Tyrion and Dany are the three who both recognize that sometimes harsh things have to be done but that there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, and that the fallacy of the false dilemma does exist, so they should be sure there aren't other options. (Tyrion and Dany's conversation about what to do about Jorah in the previous episode was a great example.) Not coincidentally, they are the three most likely to be ruling Westeros after all this is over.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Black Knight

[rollacoaster]

If Dani had paid money for the Unsullied, she'd be entitled to a refund. 

[WatchrTina]

I'm hoping a child touched by Greyscale who survives it becomes part dragon. I hope Shireen underwent a magical transformation by fire and Stannis now has a young dragon on his hands. All those references to A Dance With Dragons hints that there will be dragon vs dragon warfare at some point in this story.

Edited June 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[AGuyToo]

There have been several points in the past at which people have said they were done with the show and/or the book series. At each of those points, I've scoffed and thought those people were overreacting. I've had great admiration for the talents of GRRM and D&D, and I have had confidence that they knew how to bring this world to a fitting conclusion. But tonight, I don't know.

 

Stannis was a great character. There were lots of things (even big things, like his murder of Selyse's brother) that I needed to close my eyes to, but I thought that GRRM had created a great human character in Stannis -- human in that his quality didn't depend on dragons or other magic or other fantasy stuff. I thought GRRM was creating a striking fictional character, one who transcended the fantasy genre.

 

But tonight, I realize I was wrong. I don't accept that GRRM subverted any tropes with this. I don't accept that he did anything creative here. (I realize Stannis hasn't done this in the books yet, but I'm assuming D&D wouldn't do something like this without GRRM's approval.) I think he just spat on the fans tonight. I think this was sh*t.

 

Maybe in the morning I'll feel better and more charitable, but at the moment I'm just really angry at GRRM and D&D. I'm not sure why I'm posting to say this. But I've really enjoyed ASOIAF and GOT, but after tonight, I don't know.

[Shanna Marie]

I was initially shocked at the lack of brothel nudity. I've now decided that it must mean that Arya will indeed end up on the menu there, and they wanted to establish precedent for the actress not being naked.

So it wasn't my imagination that we got through an entire brothel scene without naked women being front and center. This may also have been the only "auditioning the whores" scene in which the candidates weren't totally nude, or at least topless, or stripping. So yeah, Arya will be there next week.

 

I want Stannis' army to kill all the Boltons (especially Ramsey) with supernatural assistance so that Shireen's death was not a waste and then I want Brienne to kill Stannis and then I want everyone left standing in the North to bend the knee to Sansa, the Queen in the North, who with Brienne as Hand if the Queen will ride North to reinforce The Night Watch and defeat the White Walkers.

I'm kind of torn here. On the one hand, I'd hate for Shireen's death to be a waste, but on the other hand, I'd hate to validate Stannis's decision. If they get supernatural assistance and defeat the Boltons, then Stannis would be able to tell himself that he did the right thing and it was worth it. If they fail anyway, then he has to live with the fact that he killed his daughter for nothing. The poor child is dead either way, so I'd rather see Stannis suffer.

 

When Davos went to say good-bye to Shireen, I was hoping he was going to defy orders and sneak her away with him. Then Jon could protect her at Castle Black, and she could continue teaching Gilly to read. And then they could all go together to the Citadel and study together.

[Unknown poster]

I've no idea is Shireen's death in the books will directly involve Stannis or not, (I tend to think not, but I'm a Stannis guy) but I do think that D&D have missed the point with him from the beginning. He does have "ambition", but as others have said, it's not the "ambition" they think. As recently as two episodes ago, they reiterated the point that has been driving him. That STANNIS, and only Stannis, can lead the fight against the forces of the great other. Sure, we know that he and Mel are mistaken, but the thing is, they don't. I've often thought that Stannis is the most tragic figure in this whole universe, a man who sacrifices everything dear to him, because he believes himself to be the savior of the world. It would be nice if the show would at least touch on that, but I have no confidence that they will give anyone,least of all Stannis, that kind of "shade of grey." After all, they decided to make Meryn Trant a pedophile, just in case anyone wasn't sure how they felt about Arya killing him.

[Brn2bwild]

As great as the Dany stuff was, I think this will go down as one of those episodes, like the Lady episode and the Sansa rape episode, that I can't watch again.

 

At this point, if the next episode featured Arya standing buck naked, full frontal, before Trant, nothing would surprise me.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Brn2bwild

[loki567]

It would also be a cheat if Mel sacrificed Shireen to save Jon, because it would let people be happy that Jon was saved while being able to blame only Mel for the sacrifice of Shireen - people get to have their cake and eat it too, in other words, and GRRM doesn't go for that kind of convenient escape from morality.

 

 

I disagree there. I think there would be a shit load of complexity in the fact that the only reason that Jon would be saved is because Shireen dies. I think it would forced a lot of discussion between the audience if it was worth it, especially if a sympathetic character like a Val, participates in it. 

[MadMouse]

Trant is a pedophile now? Can't wait for the next episode where he's kicking puppies. You don't have to up his evil factor to make Arya's kill justified.

 

Your family was involved in deaths of both my sister and brother. Now take my only son and his betrothed my only leverage to the capital where both my siblings were brutally killed. WTF. Though it was nice to see some actual book Ellaria at the end although I don't think incest was ever OK in Dorne.

 

The Black Arrow Olly is ready to strike. You have failed this realm Jon Snow. Hey was that Bowen Marsh? I'm glad he's gotten some development like staring angrily. But I will give them some credit for Thorne's comment to Jon.

 

So Ramsay and Flayed Team Six were able to sneak in and destroy all Stannis supplies and siege weapons. I can't even put into words how absurdly overpowered they've made him.

 

Shireen being burnt didn't shock me, I expect Mel to do it after she learns about the Pink Letter. But there is no way Stannis at this point would, I don't care what D&D say. And if Martin wrote something like this I'd call it shit writing too. Now down the road it could be a possibility but like everything it depends on the context. 

 

Daznak's pit was OK. Emila looked amazing during that whole scene, living up to the most beautiful woman in the world rep. Drogon was kinda small but still looked really good. I guess the Harpies went to the same guerrilla war school as Ramsay. And that ending were D&D watching Attack of the Clones while writing? Even the panning shot of Drogon was straight from the movies.

 

The episode wasn't terrible it shows they're more about the big moments and nothing else. Of course when you ignore all that messy character and world building the climaxes don't mean as much.

 

[benteen]

If Dani had paid money for the Unsullied, she'd be entitled to a refund. 

 

LOL, yeah. The Unsullied are supposed to be amazing fighters when they are outnumbered and surrounded by that.  That's been established in the books.

I disagree there. I think there would be a shit load of complexity in the fact that the only reason that Jon would be saved is because Shireen dies. I think it would forced a lot of discussion between the audience if it was worth it, especially if a sympathetic character like a Val, participates in it. 

 

The thing is, if Shireen's death results in Jon's resurrection, then I'm surprised the show didn't have a scene between the two of them.  They have a brief scene together in ADWD but I would have thought we would have gotten something with them on the show.

[enlightenedbum]

 

But even though I believe Jon is AA reborn, I think there's foreshadowing in what Tyrion said to Dany tonight, "You can stop this." When Jon's AA Lightbringer moment comes (probably something to do with Arya), I expect him to reject it.

See, I don't think Jon is AA reborn.  I think no one is.  Because while Martin includes a whole bunch of fantastical stuff in his story, he is ultimately interested in people.  And the choices they make.  So for anyone to be a destined hero re-enacting the stories from the Age of Heroes would violate that whole principle.  So Melisandre is to some degree a genuine zealot who will make a horrifying choice to "fulfill prophecy" when it will do nothing of the sort.  Ultimately Rhaegar's belief that he was/needed to create the Prince That Was Promised was just Targaryen insanity manifesting itself in a weird way and humans made strange, disastrous decisions for reasons that had an inner coherence but were actually completely ridiculous.

 

To me, that fits the story he's telling much better than Jon or Dany or whoever is the destined savior of Westeros.  Because destined saviors are boring, stupid tropes and should die the same death that the noble lawful good hero (Ned) did, or Sansa's dreams of being a Disney princess, or Arya's quest of vengeance (it's going to end badly), or Robb as Prince Charming who marries for honor and/or love.

 

Which doesn't mean I think The Others win.  What I do think is that Dany wins and rules as an absolute monarch.

[Pete Martell]

Brienne. 

 

That's who I'm rooting for anyway. I no longer care if she leaves Sansa to go kill Stannis either. Get him, Brienne! Do it for Renly and that poor girl.

 

Brienne has become such a cardboard cutout, it's tough for me to care about her swooping in to sort of save the day with more action figure scenes. 

 

The poor writing for everyone involved has led me to just do what I've increasingly done with this show - not root for anyone. 

 

I can't help wondering if D&D did this so people would be more comfortable supporting the Boltons. I've seen so many say they're rooting for Ramsay now that it just reminds me of how many characters have been made unrootable through general miserable pseudo-ambiguousness and shock value. It's gotten to the point where a rapist and murderer and butcher is seen as a hero by many. 

So Ramsay and Flayed Team Six were able to sneak in and destroy all Stannis supplies and siege weapons. I can't even put into words how absurdly overpowered they've made him.

 

The only surprise for me was we didn't see him fighting shirtless. I guess that's for the deleted scenes.

[Unknown poster]

Couple more points. I'm surprised Jorah survived, and equally surprised Hizdahr didn't. I assume that they'll be glossing over the whole Harpy situation, and possibly Meeren entirely, going forward. Not sure how I feel about that, considering that as much of a slog as it's become in the books, taking the exact opposite course doesn't feel very satisfying either. And, given the fact that Jorah survived, and is apparently unbanished, (about damn time) what was the point of him getting greyscale? Are they going to whip up a miracle cure? Or is he going to just linger on, eventually becoming so noticable that he's either put out of his misery, or banished yet again, to go commune with the stone men?

[BloatedGuppy]

The general excellence of the Hardhome sequence appears to have given way to another hour of absolutely horrible television. I'm sure there are worse shows on TV these days, but certainly none that I'm watching. Let's see...

 

• A lot of people are complaining about Stannis burning Shireen because it destroys his lineage. Remember what Stannis is there for in the first place. He believes he is Azor Ahai come again, and that it is his appointed task to lead humanity in the war against the Long Night. As he said about Edric Storm..."I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice". Stannis burning Shireen is actually true to his character.
• Doesn't mean it was a good scene though. Dillane did a fair job, but the bit with Selyse was nonsensical.
• Ramsay's "20 men" burning a bunch of supplies/tents is a bit ridiculous, particularly with Melisandre there.
• The Dorne scenes continue to be absolute trash. I'd heard that the Hardhome sequence alone took a month, and the Dorne scenes in their entirety took one week. It shows. I have absolutely no idea what they're trying to accomplish with that storyline at this point. The Dorne chapters were no standouts but the show material is making the book material look like Proust. What are these characters even doing? The writing is atrocious. I wasn't sure anything could top season 2's cumbersome Qarth storyline in terms of awkward go-nowhere storytelling but I was wrong.
• Not sure, but aren't Drogon's scales supposed to be thicker than that?
• Way to be touching everyone, Jorah. I'm not sure what he's meant to be accomplishing in the story at this point, really. If he's not the Connington stand-in, what is he for, exactly?
• OMG the Sons of the bloody Harpy. They had what...100 plants in the crowd? 200? Did none of you idiots ever hear of a crossbow? Why are you busying yourself stabbing random, fleeing bystanders, exactly? I've never seen an enemy force be at once so preternaturally organized and then Benny Hill level stupid when it came time to do actual fighting.
• I wonder if Hizdahr dying is confirmation of suspicions that he was never the Harpy.
• The changes make Dany leaving look impossibly capricious instead of feral/triumphant. All her friends are still down there surrounded by masked incompetents. She just flies off, all "Lol later bitches. Byeeeeeee."
• Anyone notice Jon Snow marching the Wildlings up to the gates of Castle Black? Go get a map of the North and the Wall, and get back to me when you realize how absolutely confoundingly absurd that is. Forget book fans, even passionate show watchers who have spent five seconds looking at a map of Westeros are going to wonder at the logic behind that.
• More sinister looks please, Oly. There's got to be at least one person who hasn't caught on yet.
• Good thing Meryn Trant is now a pedophile, so we have even extra reasons to hate him. I don't usually subscribe to the moral panics that sweep the internet, but I'll be god-damned if these showrunners don't find a new way to slip some sexual squick into almost every episode. Arya suddenly acting like a nervous first-timer on the subject of killing sure makes a lot of sense too, so well done on that count.

 

Can't wait for the next season when they'll be out of books entirely, and people can no longer blame AFFC and ADWD for the show's absolutely embarrassing writing. I knew there would be a quality decline as they ran out of source, but I never would've imagined it would have been this precipitous.  

[Pogojoco]

"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

 

From a released later chapter that I was reminded of. Ramsey being able to wreck all of Stannis' siege weapons and their supplies is completely ridiculous. 

 

I also just don't get going the North on the Wall way when the South way is open to you. And it is, if you land at Eastwatch. That's the end of the Wall. I was just relieved when they opened the gates, so that wouldn't be a whole thing again. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by Pogojoco

[loki567]

 

. I assume that they'll be glossing over the whole Harpy situation, and possibly Meeren entirely, going forward. Not sure how I feel about that, considering that as much of a slog as it's become in the books, taking the exact opposite course doesn't feel very satisfying either. And, given the fact that Jorah survived, and is apparently unbanished, (about damn time) what was the point of him getting greyscale? Are they going to whip up a miracle cure?

 

Is that potentially the writers' way out of Meereen? Jorah spreads the disease throughout the city, making the entire place uninhabitable, thus giving Dany a reason to walk away from the whole situation with her head held high? It sounds stupid, but from these writers you never know. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by loki567

[InsertWordHere]

Brienne has become such a cardboard cutout, it's tough for me to care about her swooping in to sort of save the day with more action figure scenes. 

I was referring to her fulfilling her vow of revenge against Stannis, not her swooping in to save the day, although I think the latter is more likely to happen. 

[Oscirus]

To be fair, the Harpies are pretty good guerilla fighters. If Dany wouldn't have taken Drogon out of there, he would've been killed by the Harpies.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Oscirus

[Ambrosefolly]

See, I don't think Jon is AA reborn.  I think no one is.  Because while Martin includes a whole bunch of fantastical stuff in his story, he is ultimately interested in people.  And the choices they make.  So for anyone to be a destined hero re-enacting the stories from the Age of Heroes would violate that whole principle.  So Melisandre is to some degree a genuine zealot who will make a horrifying choice to "fulfill prophecy" when it will do nothing of the sort.  Ultimately Rhaegar's belief that he was/needed to create the Prince That Was Promised was just Targaryen insanity manifesting itself in a weird way and humans made strange, disastrous decisions for reasons that had an inner coherence but were actually completely ridiculous.

I think Jon is AA reborn, but he is basically the Frodo of this story: he saves the realm but doesn't rule it. Since Dany is now the least horrible choice as far as monarch go, I think she should be the "Khal of khal" and at least ensure a man doesn't get to own another man, which makes the world something remotely worth saving.

 

Of all the things that Dany's done, I thought she was a bit judgy about the fighting pits. At least those men (hopefully) choice to be there and are given a weapon, unlike when Dany has people executed without giving them a trial. 

[BloatedGuppy]

To be fair, the Harpies are pretty good fighters. They came pretty close to taking out Drogon. Which doesn't bold well if they're supposed to be used in the fight against the White Walkers.

 

Good thing they had those spears handy to throw at Drogon after he appeared.

 

Hey Harpies! Throw a spear at Dany! Remember Dany? She's the reason you're there in the first place! Throw...throw a spear at Dany! No? You just want to wave your daggers in the air menacingly? Okay.

[Dewey Decimate]

I was initially shocked at the lack of brothel nudity. I've now decided that it must mean that Arya will indeed end up on the menu there, and they wanted to establish precedent for the actress not being naked.

 

 

So it wasn't my imagination that we got through an entire brothel scene without naked women being front and center. This may also have been the only "auditioning the whores" scene in which the candidates weren't totally nude, or at least topless, or stripping. So yeah, Arya will be there next week.

My first thought was "so that's all it takes - an underage actress on the scene and they finally have to veil the nips and cracks!" But then looked up MW and found she's 18. Either way, did we really lose anything by not seeing the naughty bits? Are people watching this show to wank by when there's actual porn, like, everywhere? It's kinda sad when I see the rating warnings at the start of an ep and let out a sigh of relief when nudity is not listed. "Yay! No obtrusive pubes to annoy me!" And it's wrong to find humor in the selling-a-child scene, but holy make-up department, Batman! Could they have made the young girl any more apple-cheeked? She looked like freakin' Raggedy Ann.

 

I can't believe anyone takes dingleberry Mace Tyrell seriously as the head of a house.

 

I want Olly to shit or get off the can. I'm sick of looking at his perma-scowl and felt bad when my first thought seeing him tonight was "can someone just kill that kid?"

 

Speaking of which... ugh, Shireen's screams were horrid, but I'm glad they made such a horrific act sound as awful as it is.

 

If my skin looked as flawless and porcelain-perfect as Mel's does ALL THE DAMN TIME I just might start worshiping the red god too.

 

Dorne's environs and inhabitants are gorgeous to look at, but damn, that story is being written by the B squad, huh? As Bronn was being led out of his cell and short-haired sister got a most-beautiful from him, I cringed when whale rider sis said "slut!" followed by an abrupt cut. wtf? This is not acceptable for my GoT. Fire both the second string writer and editor responsible, stat! Not much better was the "condition" of Bronn's release. Really? Ugh. I'm not sure my gut and heart can stand constant threats to favored characters, but wow was that lame. Just have him take a football to the nuts and at least make me laugh.

 

I loved how the spectacular, blood-chilling battle of last week was followed by a pretty spectacular, fiery battle scene. Ignoring the lame aspects (Harpy strategy fail, Dany's blank, wandering cluelessness), there was a lot to love. The dialogue on the dais was fantastic (MVP Tyrion, though I still dig Daario and his allegedly flat ass), Dany's necklace was to die for, and Jorah is finally accepted (about goddamned time). Then Drogon appears. As much as I adore Ser Friendzone, as Drogon was getting hit by the spears I started getting that pre-throw-up feeling of sweatiness and drool that means a death is imminent and actually thought "please, kill off Jorah and NOT Drogon, you bastards!!" So, so relieved they all lived, at least for now. Shireen was enough for one ep.

[BloatedGuppy]

I think Jon is AA reborn, but he is basically the Frodo of this story: he saves the realm but doesn't rule it. 

 

Dollars to donuts says the "Frodo" of the story is actually Bran.

[Ambrosefolly]

Dollars to donuts says the "Frodo" of the story is actually Bran.

I think that he is Gandalf now that Jojeen Reed is dead.