S05.E09: The Dance of Dragons

[Saje]

I kind of enjoyed Hizzie and Daario's measuring contest only to have Jorah whip his out and beat them both.

 

Heh heh.

I think one of the worst things about Dany's flight was the way that her hair barely moved. When I think about how my hair flies when the windows are down in a car it was too ridiculous the way it basically stayed in place. 

 

But, she had like 87 braids. I thought the worst part was (as someone said a million years upthread), the CGI wasn't up to the standards we've seen. Falcor-iffic.

[WatchrTina]

 

BTW, great pick-up by an earlier poster.  Jon arrived by BOAT to Hardome, by way of Castle Black.  But all of a sudden they are marching back to the wall to Castle Black, which is leagues away from Eastwatch?  It's this kind of intentional disregard for detail that drives me crazy.

My fan-wank for that is that Stannis landed his ships north of the wall and that's why he and his legions were on the correct side when they rode in and saved the day last season.  So I assumed they landed at the same spot with the Wildings and marched them to Castle Black on the north side of the wall, following the same path that Stannis took because . . . reasons.  Okay as readers we know that ships regularly dock near the eastern end of the wall where Eastwatch is manned by the NW but that's never been addressed in the show so I guess you can pretend that the only functioning gate -- the only practical way to get 5000 people south of the wall --is to bring them through that gate. 

 

In the book, of course, it happens that way because it is the survivors of the battle that come through the gate, not the batch of Wildings they rescue with the ships.  They come through that way because they are already there.

Edited June 9, 2015 by WatchrTina

[GreyBunny]

I'm not defending Jaime's crippling and attempted murder of Bran or Theon's murder of the two miller boys.   But TV Stannis chose to have his own daughter killed in the most painful way possible.  A daughter who loved and trusted him.  A daughter he didn't even have the courage to tell her what he was going to do to her.  That makes TV Stannis worse and more unredeemable than Jaime and Theon.

He didn't even give her a sleeping potion or even conk her on the head so she wouldn't have to be awake and screaming in terror and excruciating pain when it happened.  The. Worst.

 

I'm anti-blood sacrifice of any kind, including animals and sons of dieties and humans, related or not. At least the Seven religion doesn't seem to do that -- or maybe they do sacrifice animals and I forgot.

 

The Faith Militant under the leadership of the current High Septon has no problem running around killing and torturing to administer the "Father's Justice", and it's happened before historically, so there's room in that religion for that kind of horrible behavior.

 

I kind of enjoyed Hizzie and Daario's measuring contest only to have Jorah whip his out and beat them both.

 

I loved that.  One of my favorite moments.  Jorah showed them both up by a Meereenese mile.  

Edited June 9, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Pogojoco]

For those who forget/don't know why Meryn Trant is on Arya's hit list- he killed Syrio Forel. He also used to smack Sansa around for Joffrey, but Arya doesn't know that. 

 

I doubt I'm the only one, but Jon Snow trying to smile at Ollie and pretty much failing cracked me up a little because of KH's reputation for having the most emo face ever.

 

It seems, of course, that Ollie is going to stab Jon. And it sort of bothers me because the book made it slightly more complicated- one thing is that Bowen Marsh had a few issues with Jon- not just the Wildlings (letting them through the wall and sending boats to Hardhome), but also helping Stannis and wanting to ride south to Winterfell. Also, it was more than Bowen Marsh doing the stabbing- it was a few of them. They conspired. I half suspect Martin did this so he could get Jon out of his Night's Watch vows (his body dies but he is reborn) and having it be several members of the Night's Watch, it serves as more of break. I dunno.

 

Maybe this kid just bugs me. Jon's chumminess with him bugs me a little because he did kill Ygritte and Jon knows it. 

 

It seems like everyone needed to go to Hardhome. They all need to know what time it is. 

[Bill1978]

I was suprised that the episode didn't even feature a scene where those who went at least talked to those who didn't about the battle at Hardhome and what they saw. It's like nobody has said anything so the Nightwatch, so they are justified in hating Jon's idea to bond with the Wildlings. If I didn't watch the previous episode, I too would be in the dark about just how serious the threat beyond the Wall is,

[WatchrTina]

 

For those who forget/don't know why Meryn Trant is on Arya's hit list- he killed Syrio Forel.

Well, Arya THINKS he killed Syrio Forel.  When last she saw them Syrio was about to fight Trant with naught but a wooden practice sword (Trant was wearing armor and wielding castle-forged steel.)  So it's perfectly reasonable for Arya to ASSUME Trant killed Syrio.  I, however, cling to the belief that he survived.  He didn't die on screen and he didn't die on the page in view of any POV narrator so as far as I"m concerned, Syrio lives!

Edited June 9, 2015 by WatchrTina

[benteen]

I was suprised that the episode didn't even feature a scene where those who went at least talked to those who didn't about the battle at Hardhome and what they saw. It's like nobody has said anything so the Nightwatch, so they are justified in hating Jon's idea to bond with the Wildlings. If I didn't watch the previous episode, I too would be in the dark about just how serious the threat beyond the Wall is,

 

Yep.  This goes back to the problem that Jon never makes a strong case to his brothers in the Night's Watch on why they need to align with the Wildlings.

 

He didn't say anything (he's been mostly silent this season) but I'd like to think that Edd would now back Jon 100% on this issue.  After Hardhome, I can't imagine the show making him one of the mutineers.

Edited June 9, 2015 by benteen

[dr pepper]

LOL, yeah. The Unsullied are supposed to be amazing fighters when they are outnumbered and surrounded by that.  That's been established in the books.

 

 

Yeah. There was a story of a group of unsullied withstanding an all out attack from a force of Drothraki. It ended with the Droths withdrawing, leaving their ponytails behind, their ultimate gesture of respect for an enemy. I can't see a bunch of insurgent preppies showing anywhere near the bravery and determination of the Droths, so they should been repelled pretty quickly.

[Pogojoco]

Well, Arya THINKS he killed Syrio Forel.  When last she saw them Syrio was about to fight Trant with naught but a wooden practice sword (Trant was wearing armor and wielding iron.)  So it's perfectly reasonable for Arya to ASSUME Trant killed Syrio.  I, however, cling to the belief that he survived.  He didn't die on screen and he didn't die on the page in view of any POV narrator so as far as I"m concerned, Syrio lives!

I love you for this. 

[Unknown poster]

Yeah. There was a story of a group of unsullied withstanding an all out attack from a force of Drothraki. It ended with the Droths withdrawing, leaving their ponytails behind, their ultimate gesture of respect for an enemy. I can't see a bunch of insurgent preppies showing anywhere near the bravery and determination of the Droths, so they should been repelled pretty quickly.

I feel like this argument has been going on forever. In every confrontation with the Sons of the Harpy, the Unsullied have been out numbered, and VASTLY out of the comfort zone of Hoplite infantry. The fact that they suffer heavy losses in guerrilla style warfare isn't shocking at all, at least not to me. Being susceptible to being stabbed in the back, or falling to 3 on 1 odds doesn't make someone less of a warrior, it just makes them human.

[dr pepper]

I think that he [bran] is Gandalf now that Jojeen Reed is dead. 

 

No, silly, he's the Uhuru of the story, in the center of the communications system.

[MadMouse]

We all know the real reason the Unsullied are dropping left and right, they need to make room for her new Dothraki. Just like her blood riders and handmaidens were killed off to make room originally. Its the circle of life for background characters on the show. Or the Harpies trained alongside Ramsay's elite squad and got the same Valyrian steel plot armor.

[dr pepper]

Drogon vs Toothless Daenerys Targaryen vs Hiccup

 

Was that thing in the second video supposed to be a dragon? It looked like what a betta might evolve into if it gained flight.

[Ambrosefolly]

Maybe this kid just bugs me. Jon's chumminess with him bugs me a little because he did kill Ygritte and Jon knows it. 

 

I don't mind it. As much as he loved Ygritte, he had to know she had it coming and she did have an arrow pointed right at him. Hopefully Ollie told him she was the one that killed his father and also learned from Sam about her killing Pyp. I also think Ollie remind him of Bran and Rickon.

[that one guy]

If Drogon had been the size he was described as in the books, those spears wouldn't even tickle him.

 

While I enjoyed the arena scene, Drogon's badassery was reduced a bit on TV. In the books, he did get pierced with a spear . . . and it BURST INTO FLAME and was reduced to ash. Smoke came out of the wound, and Drogon ATE his attacker. And I was all, "do not fuck with Drogon." While the spears didn't seem to seriously hinder him on TV, they did not burst into flame, which was disappointing.

[lucindabelle]

Watching that scene again I was so impressed with Danys expression of love, relief, concern, all at once, when she saw her child Drogon. And its absolutely clear he was telling her he wasn't going to leave and while he stopped to talk to her people were attacking him. She had to go.

Is it wrong ough that on rewatch of the scene I found myself wond ring how all those identical masks were made? Is there a secret smithy somewhere?

[Miles]

Maybe a little too inside baseball, but the whole "Dance of Dragons" civil war started over a dispute about whether a woman had the right to succeed to the Iron Throne.  Stannis strikes me as someone who'd come down on the "no" side of that argument anyway.

Because she had a brother. If a woman does not have a brother and is the oldest child of the current king or queen, she will be queen. It was that way in all of european royalty (it's how england got it's current queen) and it's that way in westeros (except Dorne, where a woman will inherit regardless, when she is the first born).

 

It's saying something about a show when pedophilia isn't even close to the worse thing on that episode. Wow.

That girl was at least 14. That's not pedophilia. Very creepy, yes, but not pedophilia.

 

Well, Arya THINKS he killed Syrio Forel. When last she saw them Syrio was about to fight Trant with naught but a wooden practice sword (Trant was wearing armor and wielding iron.) So it's perfectly reasonable for Arya to ASSUME Trant killed Syrio. I, however, cling to the belief that he survived. He didn't die on screen and he didn't die on the page in view of any POV narrator so as far as I"m concerned, Syrio lives!

I still think he might be Jaqen H'ghar (who is probably also the kindly man in the books). I mean it's weird that a faceless man got captured and needed the help of a girl to break out, isn't it? It would make more sense if he got himself captured deliberatly to test Aria. Edited June 9, 2015 by Miles

[dr pepper]

So - bear with me here - what if the Aegon plot isn't out but it's just been merged with a different character. What is Doran's son is a slightly aged up Aegon?  What if Doran has just put who he believes to be the true heir to the Iron Throne inches away from it with justifiable reasons to send an envoy of men with him?  If the game is this big, we still might meet other children of Doran next season - Arienne might still be in. But the big plot would be this - secure the Lannisters through Marcella while placing a Martell/Targ in KL for the taking of the Iron Throne.  It would be an amazing way to streamline the Aegon plot and show us two cases of uncles pretending to be fathers.  There would be a nice symmetry to it.

 

And well, the dragon needs three heads and I just don't believe that Tyrion is a Targ.  Plus I've read a few quotes from GRRM about characters that D&D have deleted that he wishes were in because they are important, but it's typically references to smaller characters like Lady Stoneheart or the fact that Loras isn't the sole heir to High Garden.  I didn't see him comment on the hugeness of the Iron Born characters or the lack of Aegon so I'm starting to wonder if that's because we will see those stories one way or another. Therefore, I'm going out on a limb and saying that Trystion equals Aegon on the show and that is Doran's game.

 

THIS!

[Avaleigh]

Other thoughts about the episode--

 

I actually thought that Shireen was going to say that she sided with Rhaenrya during the first dance. I don't know why maybe I thought she'd be sympathetic to how Rhaenyra was her father's only heir for so long.

 

Davos got a vibe but he thought highly enough of Stannis to think that he wouldn't be capable of betraying his only child. He's going to be completely gutted by this. 

 

Not one guy even dares to raise his voice to question what's happening? No exchanges of looks between some of the men or glances at Stannis like he's the new mad king? Not one man wonders if he'll be judged by the gods for standing by while a child burns to death? What about the knights who are with Stannis? It makes it seem like everyone present had been given a handbook on how the Lord of Light works and knew that this would probably have to happen eventually. Shireen was the only one who seemed shocked. (I too wonder what she'd been told she was about to do because she doesn't seem worried when she's walking over.)

 

Mace's singing was a moment of much needed levity. This guy is so out to lunch I find it amusing and almost want him to stick around.

 

Now that the running of the extras in the stadiums has been pointed out I can't stop seeing how silly it looks.

 

I didn't catch that Ellaria called Myrcella Jaime's daughter to his face on the first viewing. I knew that she'd called him out about Cersei but I didn't notice that she's the third person this season to tell him that Myrcella is his daughter. Seems significant for some reason. Like he might end up telling Myrcella at some point. I know in the books he considers it and wonders if the kids would even want to know. 

 

When Ellaria says that a hundred years ago nobody would have blinked if Jaime and Cersei had been Targaryens I thought to myself that it wouldn't even have had to have been a hundred years ago because Dany's parents were brother and sister. I don't really get how people in ASOIAF act so uptight about incest when the royal family was getting away with it for years even when they didn't have dragons to back it up. 

 

I agree that it made no sense why Dany wouldn't want to pick up some kind of weapon in that situation. I also agree with those who think that Dany not being a sword fighter points to Jon being a more likely candidate for Azor Ahai.  

 

Even with the braids, the curled part of Dany's hair that was down should have been flying all over the place. 

[dr pepper]

Information flow and travel times on this show are infuriating sometimes.  Joffrey died in 4.02, and by 4.04 the news had reached Meereen.  Jaime and Bronn took two episodes to get to Dorne.  Jon Snow did the roundtrip to Hardhome in 3 episodes. 

 

Yet it takes Mace for-freaking-ever to get to Braavos.  Cercei's been in prison for a couple of episodes; doesn't Doran know that?  Maybe he does, and we'll get a good expository scene with Trystane explaining what the hell the point was of this season long plot cul-de-sac.

 

 

Oberyn has 8 daughters in both the book and the show.  Ellaria is the mother to four of them.  In the books, her four daughters are all children under 12 and have only been referred to in dialog.  The four adult Sand Snakes (Obara, Nym, Tyene, Sarella) are not related to her.

 

On the show, they made Tyene one of her daughters.  Obara referred to her own mother as a separate entity, so she's not Ellaria's daughter.  I don't remember if they ever defined Nym's parentage on the show. 

 

The only other daughter named on the show is his fifth, Elia.  He was writing a poem for her last season when Cercei interrupted him to try to influence his vote in Tyrion's trial.

 

Ah, that reminds me. I think part of the reason we're finding the women of Dorn so disappointing is that scene where one of them asks Doran for a blessing and when he obliges, putting a hand on her head, his guard is horrified by the thought that she might have a poisoned needle woven into her hair. Their show versions do not seem to be that kind of dangerous.

[dr pepper]

Well in the books it's implicit that the Bolton's power base is kind of a joke. The North knows Jeyne isn't Arya, the North knows the Boltons and Freys orchestrated the Red Wedding. Everyone in the North, except the Freys, are conspiring against them, and the Lannisters are no longer the powerful allies they once were.

 

Roose sort of makes that point to Ramsay on the show, that they can not count on the Lannisters, have no REAL friends, but again I feel the loss of Manderlay in this sense, the Boltons in the book haven't hit speed bumps, but there is a sense that everything they hold is literally ashes/temporary at best (the Pink Letter not withstanding). The tide is turning in the books, unfortunately that has been lost on the show this year.

 

I never read a book over unless it's been years but it's clear i'm going to have to make an exception this time, as i've apparently forgotten a lot of small details. But i seem to recall that part of the Boltons' problems involved the swamp people withholding their froggy allegiance and sniping the troops with poison darts.

[dr pepper]

I half suspect Martin did this so he could get Jon out of his Night's Watch vows (his body dies but he is reborn)

 

I sse. Like someone who was sentenced to prison "for the rest of your natural life" later having heart failure  but getting a pacemaker, then petitioning for parole because their natural life was over.

[dr pepper]

Is it wrong ough that on rewatch of the scene I found myself wond ring how all those identical masks were made? Is there a secret smithy somewhere?

 

I think the masks are supposed to be paper mache. They could easily be made factory style by fitting the medium over wooden molds then painting them. Two days to dry, then some shellac to make them shiny, and you're goofd to go.

Edited June 9, 2015 by dr pepper

[Oscirus]

That girl was at least 14. That's not pedophilia. Very creepy, yes, but not pedophilia

 

Yes I know, I'm too lazy to look up the actual term for it but pedophilia is basically understood to somewhat cover all sexually deviant behavior with underage children. While I'm on the subject, why was the madam so shocked at this request from Trant. I can't imagine that in a place like this that caters to all tastes that this is the first time that she would get such a request.

 

Not one guy even dares to raise his voice to question what's happening? No exchanges of looks between some of the men or glances at Stannis like he's the new mad king? Not one man wonders if he'll be judged by the gods for standing by while a child burns to death? What about the knights who are with Stannis? It makes it seem like everyone present had been given a handbook on how the Lord of Light works and knew that this would probably have to happen eventually.

 

It's an army of mercenaries. While they might not like what's going on, it doesn't affect their paycheck one way or the other so they just stay silent about it and let that crazy dude kill his daughter.

 

I took two things from the fighting pit scene that I wasn't supposed to.

 

1. Dany's a bit of a pyro.

2. When forced to choose between saving her people and saving her dragon, Dany chose the dragon. Not very queen like.

 

[The Mormegil]

My fan-wank for that is that Stannis landed his ships north of the wall and that's why he and his legions were on the correct side when they rode in and saved the day last season.  So I assumed they landed at the same spot with the Wildings and marched them to Castle Black on the north side of the wall, following the same path that Stannis took because . . . reasons.  Okay as readers we know that ships regularly dock near the eastern end of the wall where Eastwatch is manned by the NW but that's never been addressed in the show so I guess you can pretend that the only functioning gate -- the only practical way to get 5000 people south of the wall --is to bring them through that gate. 

 

In the book, of course, it happens that way because it is the survivors of the battle that come through the gate, not the batch of Wildings they rescue with the ships.  They come through that way because they are already there.

 

What happened in my head was that Sallador Saan after seeing the dead rise told Jon and the Wildlings to get off his bloody ships as quickly as possible. He drops them off still north of the wall and sails for Braavos vowing never to set foot in Westeros again.

[wayne67]

Yes I know, I'm too lazy to look up the actual term for it but pedophilia is basically understood to somewhat cover all sexually deviant behavior with underage children. While I'm on the subject, why was the madam so shocked at this request from Trant. I can't imagine that in a place like this that caters to all tastes that this is the first time that she would get such a request.

 

It's an army of mercenaries. While they might not like what's going on, it doesn't affect their paycheck one way or the other so they just stay silent about it and let that crazy dude kill his daughter.

 

I took two things from the fighting pit scene that I wasn't supposed to.

 

1. Dany's a bit of a pyro.

2. When forced to choose between saving her people and saving her dragon, Dany chose the dragon. Not very queen like.

 

To be fair... People are a dime a dozen in this story... There are like hundreds of characters with names. There are 3 dragons in the entire world. I think Dragons have a higher priority especially since they're metaphorically her children and those other people are only sort of friends...

[SFoster21]

Many have mentioned the truncated travelling, where characters appear instantly in a new location. So, I'm wondering, did Littlefinger get lost on his way back to Winterfell? Where's he been all this time?

Edited June 9, 2015 by SFoster21

[DigitalCount]

So rewatching the scene, it looks like there are a few soldiers looking glum or uncomfortable when Shireen starts screaming; they actually pan over a couple of people who seem like they'd rather be anywhere else. I figure I missed this at first because I was cringing so hard while watching the first time.

[Hecate7]

Yes I know, I'm too lazy to look up the actual term for it but pedophilia is basically understood to somewhat cover all sexually deviant behavior with underage children. While I'm on the subject, why was the madam so shocked at this request from Trant. I can't imagine that in a place like this that caters to all tastes that this is the first time that she would get such a request.

 

It's an army of mercenaries. While they might not like what's going on, it doesn't affect their paycheck one way or the other so they just stay silent about it and let that crazy dude kill his daughter.

 

I took two things from the fighting pit scene that I wasn't supposed to.

 

1. Dany's a bit of a pyro.

2. When forced to choose between saving her people and saving her dragon, Dany chose the dragon. Not very queen like.

Bigger picture. The dragon cannot be replaced. The people always are.

[WatchrTina]

 

Maybe a little too inside baseball, but the whole "Dance of Dragons" civil war started over a dispute about whether a woman had the right to succeed to the Iron Throne.

Well, there was more to it than that.  The daughter who was heir was the only surviving child of the first wife, she had been named as heir by the king -- complete with vows of loyalty having been given by the nobel houses at that time -- and had more Targaryen blood too (more than her half brother, eldest son of the king and his second wife.)  But the second wife wanted her children to rule so the "sons come first" rule was offered up as one rationalization.  Other rationalizations included the daughter having given birth to three bastard sons (and did Westeros really want a bastard as heir apparent to the throne) and that she had later married her uncle who was known to be a vicious individual who would probably be the real ruler.  As in any legal dispute, both sides had arguments as to why they were entirely right and the other side was entirely wrong and both sides used multiple arguments, some of which were rubbish. 

 

But yeah, the claim about a daughter's rights to succeed being secondary to a true-born son was an important argument in that it brought a number of nobel women over to the daughter's side, less their claims to inherit be likewise diminished.

 

I'm half-way through the "prequel" novella covering The Dance of Dragons.  It's contained in the story collection "Dangerous Women."

 

 

I don't really get how people in ASOIAF act so uptight about incest when the royal family was getting away with it for years even when they didn't have dragons to back it up.

The ability to ride dragons was an inherited trait so the royal family (Targaryens) got away with brother-sister marriage and uncle-niece marriage to keep the dragon-riding ability strong.  They were viewed by the common people as closer to the gods so the regular rules didn't apply to them.  They continued to get away with brother-sister marriage even after the dragons were gone presumably due to tradition and a sense that no one else was good enough for them, but also (I assume) from a hope that one day dragons would return to the world.

Edited June 9, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Paws]

I have a great appreciation for Alliser Thorne this season. His character has served a great purpose in showing how everyone feels about Jon Snow, and is, in my opinion, one of the few characters who is more nuanced on the show than in the books.He is a fierce warrior, has grudging respect for Jon, fully respects his Night's Watch vows, but is kind of a dick, too. So although I was pretty sure he'd open the gates as he would never disobey his commander's order (especially as that Commander was carrying Longclaw), I couldn't be certain.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Paws

[hammaboo]

So, if Hizdahr is dead, what is the purpose of Tyrion (and Jorah) in Mereen?  Just so they can have had Tyrion and Dany meet? If so, that seems like a big waste of our time as viewers, knowing how much story they have to tell with only one episode left.

 

In the books, Hizdahr continues on as the "King" and the Queen's hand rules the city.  Are we going to have a throwaway scene where Jorah/Tyrion decide to go on the road together?  Because, honestly, why would the Mereneese follow Tyrion?  He's only been there a short bit and there's been nothing to show that he would be who they should follow. 

[benteen]

So rewatching the scene, it looks like there are a few soldiers looking glum or uncomfortable when Shireen starts screaming; they actually pan over a couple of people who seem like they'd rather be anywhere else. I figure I missed this at first because I was cringing so hard while watching the first time.

 

Yeah, they didn't look happy about it.  I forgot though that many of Stannis's men converted over to the Red God.  But Stannis's men outside of Davs are nameless, voiceless red shirts.

I have a great appreciation for Alliser Thorne this season. His character has served a great purpose in showing how everyone feels about Jon Snow, and is, in my opinion, one of the few characters who is more nuanced on the show than in the books.He is a fierce warrior, has grudging respect for Jon, fully respects his Night's Watch vows, but is kind of a dick, too. So although I was pretty sure he'd open the gates as he would never disobey his commander's order (especially as that Commander was carrying Longclaw), I couldn't be certain.

 

THIS.  Show Thorne is 1000X better than his book counterpart.  He's written like a real person and is nuanced as you said, which his book character does not.  Even going back to Season 1, where he tells Jon and Sam that they won't survie the winter and relays stories of surviving beyond the Wall.  He's still an ass but he was at least trying to be honest about the dangers they all face.  He's one of the few book "villains" that the writers haven't gone out of their way to portray him as.

Edited June 9, 2015 by benteen

[jeansheridan]

I've been thinking about this more and more because to remove Jamie from the Riverlands and put him in Dorne is huge to me so Dorne must matter.  I believe at this point, something big is coming from Doran.  He's a complicated man who believes in second chances, but not thirds.  He also knows exactly how dangerous and powerful a Lannister and Martell can be.  And I think it's telling that he refers to Marcella as a Lannister - not a Baratheon.  Furthermore, Ellia flat out told Jamie that they know about the incest.

 

So - bear with me here - what if the Aegon plot isn't out but it's just been merged with a different character. What is Doran's son is a slightly aged up Aegon?  What if Doran has just put who he believes to be the true heir to the Iron Throne inches away from it with justifiable reasons to send an envoy of men with him?  If the game is this big, we still might meet other children of Doran next season - Arienne might still be in. But the big plot would be this - secure the Lannisters through Marcella while placing a Martell/Targ in KL for the taking of the Iron Throne.  It would be an amazing way to streamline the Aegon plot and show us two cases of uncles pretending to be fathers.  There would be a nice symmetry to it.

 

And well, the dragon needs three heads and I just don't believe that Tyrion is a Targ.  Plus I've read a few quotes from GRRM about characters that D&D have deleted that he wishes were in because they are important, but it's typically references to smaller characters like Lady Stoneheart or the fact that Loras isn't the sole heir to High Garden.  I didn't see him comment on the hugeness of the Iron Born characters or the lack of Aegon so I'm starting to wonder if that's because we will see those stories one way or another. Therefore, I'm going out on a limb and saying that Trystion equals Aegon on the show and that is Doran's game.

I love this speculation! I like the idea of a super smart Doran. Someone needs to be smart and not terrible.

[jeansheridan]

Yes I know, I'm too lazy to look up the actual term for it but pedophilia is basically understood to somewhat cover all sexually deviant behavior with underage children. While I'm on the subject, why was the madam so shocked at this reques

I took two things from the fighting pit scene that I wasn't supposed to.

 

1. Dany's a bit of a pyro.

2. When forced to choose between saving her people and saving her dragon, Dany chose the dragon. Not very queen like.

But very mother like. She needs to protect him. I do the chaos the book had. Dany really has no control. She is singed and clinging on Drogan' s back just holding on.

Unlike Stannis she won't let her child die for her. Her people sure. She totally ditches her crew. Her poor handmaiden was completely ditched by Daario and Jorah. Only Tyrion had some gallantry. Much like he did about Sansa during the King' s Landing riot. And the redemption arc continues.

[Philbert]

 

Yes I know, I'm too lazy to look up the actual term for it but pedophilia is basically understood to somewhat cover all sexually deviant behavior with underage children.

 

 

I don't know why this drives me crazy but it does. Pedophilia refers to a specific group of people-Adults who are attracted to prepubescent children-the age given in the official definition is under 11. The correct term for Ser Meryn is Hebephilia-attraction to children between the ages of 11-14. The creeping inclusion of categories under the word pedophilia though is rather disturbing IMHO. Old men who are attracted to 16-17 year old girls might be perverts (although in Game of Thrones that's pretty much SOP) but they're NOT pedophiles by any stretch of the imagination. Of course, since the average life span of human beings in medieval Europe (which is the template Martin used for Westeros) is about 28-29, technically a 14 year old is middle aged.

[Funzlerks]

I actually think this logic:

Bigger picture. The dragon cannot be replaced. The people always are.

is of the same sort Stannis made when choosing to burn his child. His victory at Winterfell was irreplaceable, but his heir and family was. Too bad Shireen can't be ridden into battle, breathe fire, and eat people. Then Stannis could have been so paternal and kind to save his kid instead of his army. I think the show was really trying to go the route of Daenerys being so motherly and kind and bonded but all I got was why on earth would Tyrion trust her at all at this point and it must be so nice to mess up every decision and because you really want to ride your dragon, you get to. The whole Daenerys closing her eyes and wishing and Drogon showing up and them riding off just reminded of the platitudes of children's fantasies. True love, believe, family is forever...

Yes, in the medieval times people considered 14 year old girls halfway to deaths door. It wasn't pedophilia, it was epheebahebaohilyphilia! Totally not creepy and not at all thought aberrant by everyone else in the room, including his own men.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Funzlerks

[Hecate7]

Interesting comparison. I wouldn't really compare the two, but if I were going to compare them, I'd say Stannis sacrificed his child for his people, where Danaerys sacrificed her people for her child. It's sort of the opposite of Stannis's choice, actually.

 

Stannis had more of a choice than Danaerys. Danaerys was trying to escape assassins, and her rescuer, Drogon, would have been killed if she'd let him keep fighting all those people and their spears. Better to fly away on him, thereby removing the reason for the fighting in the first place. It's too bad she can't take people on her dragon, but she can't. It's an exclusive relationship and that's not negotiable. He's a dragon, not a horse.

 

Danaerys I think is a very good portrait of specialness. It really doesn't do anyone else much good, but it's so pretty to look at, and so awe inspiring. No, you're not getting on that dragon with her, and no, she's not gonna really save you, although she might break your chains. She's more likely to burn your city, loot your house, and leave. Still, she's an endangered species, and she's entitled to whatever it takes her to survive, same as anyone else.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Hecate7

[BlackberryJam]

 

 

I took two things from the fighting pit scene that I wasn't supposed to.

 

1. Dany's a bit of a pyro.

2. When forced to choose between saving her people and saving her dragon, Dany chose the dragon. Not very queen like.

 

Why would you think you're not supposed to take that from the scene? It seemed like they have been smacking us over the head with Dany's love of fire and love of dragons. 

 

Things I was not supposed to take from the scene are my random thoughts like:

1. I bet Drogon's breath is foul. I'm shocked Dany didn't hurl from it.

2. Hizdahr. We hardly knew ye, and I bet your wang is way smaller than Jorah's anyway.

3. Why is Dany wearing such hideous brown boots with that white dress? Such a mistake.

4. I'm shocked Emilia's jankass wig didn't burst into flames.

Those are things we are not supposed to think.

 

But the stuff about Dany's latent pyro, her choices as queen, all of that is really there in the plot.

Edited June 9, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[tennisgurl]

Something that has been increasingly bothering me about the show? I feel like the writers realized that they had a reputation as the "dark, violent, gritty" fantasy show, not "just" a show with dragons and magic and such. So as the series went on, they felt like they had to top themselves. So we get stuff like the Wildlings killing everyone in their path last season, Sansa`s current storyline, Stannis burning Shireen, anything to be "dark". The problem is, its coming at the expense of a good narrative, and being even remotely fun and interesting for the audience. Its why the Wall story has been so popular this season. Its not just darkness and misery pilled on for darkness and misery's sake, it has a purpose! It has darkness, but there are people to actually root for, who might not just end up dead and displayed on a door. Not that the Wall stuff is the only good thing to happen this season, but it has been a highlight, I think because it didn't need to make any of the characters any more villainous than in the books (which happens to most people in this show at various points, except Cersei and Saint Tyrion). They don't have to be. Its just a good, compelling story. 

[Hecate7]

Time after time, Tyrion emerges as the best ruler, but it's a completely thankless job. I think it's time to stop complaining about "Saint Tyrion" and just be a little thankful that there's one character we're allowed to root for a little. You don't hear people moaning about "Saint Snow."

 

You know you're in trouble when the Wall is the bright spot.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Hecate7

[lovetowrite73]

 

Aria was fine. I guess we all knew this was coming. Wondering if she'll cross a name off her list and get thrown out by the faceless men or if she'll do her job, or if she can do both. Probably the middle option.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion she's going to wind up blind.

[anamika]

I was suprised that the episode didn't even feature a scene where those who went at least talked to those who didn't about the battle at Hardhome and what they saw. It's like nobody has said anything so the Nightwatch, so they are justified in hating Jon's idea to bond with the Wildlings. If I didn't watch the previous episode, I too would be in the dark about just how serious the threat beyond the Wall is,

 

I think he must have explained or told them something because he tells Sam that he failed and Sam does not ask him how or why. Which implies Sam has been informed about what happened.

 

I think Jon faces the same problem here that he did in the books. In the books he does spend pages and pages explaining to Marsh and Yarwyck why it was important to save the wildlings. But they remain too bigoted to see past their hate and at one point Jon gives up talking to them because they don't offer him any constructive criticism. It's worse because the Night's Watch already know about the Others because of the Fist of the First Men attack and they still oppose the arrival of the Wildlings.

 

I think it's pretty much the same case here. They know to an extent about what's out there but their centuries old feud and hate for the Wildlings is holding sway. And Olly has some personal issues as well.

 

But I agree. Wish we got a scene of Jon talking to the men as Lord Commander and giving them the what's what. Would have been a more useful 5 minutes to advance the plot than all the time wasted on Missandei/Grey Worm.

Edited June 9, 2015 by anamika

[Philbert]

 

Yes, in the medieval times people considered 14 year old girls halfway to deaths door. It wasn't pedophilia, it was epheebahebaohilyphilia! Totally not creepy and not at all thought aberrant by everyone else in the room, including his own men.

 

Ahh yes well, biting sarcasm aside....

 

 

I think a few people went off 'half-cocked" (hee) and assumed that the writers added this little bit of character background to reinforce the idea "Ser Meryn is a baaaaaaad man."  I suppose it's possible but I think it's more likely  that the writers are really doing is establishing a reason why Arya could get reasonably close to him without raising much suspicion. I don't think that's lazy writing exactly but it is awfully convenient.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Philbert

[tennisgurl]

 

Time after time, Tyrion emerges as the best ruler, but it's a completely thankless job. I think it's time to stop complaining about "Saint Tyrion" and just be a little thankful that there's one character we're allowed to root for a little. You don't hear people moaning about "Saint Snow."

Its not that I don't like Tyrion or root for him, because I actually do. I just think its annoying that anything he did or said in the book that could be construed as "bad" gets wiped away, or placed on other people, whereas we get Stannis killing his daughter, and Jaimie killing his cousin, and other "bad" stuff, because they aren't the creators favorite character. If I have any real issue with Show Tyron, its that he`s a bit less complex than Book Tyron, who I still like and root for, even with his various bad acts. He is basically always written as the best guy in the room, unlike the books, where he can frequently falter, even if he tries to do the right thing. 

[benteen]

Something that has been increasingly bothering me about the show? I feel like the writers realized that they had a reputation as the "dark, violent, gritty" fantasy show, not "just" a show with dragons and magic and such. So as the series went on, they felt like they had to top themselves. So we get stuff like the Wildlings killing everyone in their path last season, Sansa`s current storyline, Stannis burning Shireen, anything to be "dark". The problem is, its coming at the expense of a good narrative, and being even remotely fun and interesting for the audience. Its why the Wall story has been so popular this season. Its not just darkness and misery pilled on for darkness and misery's sake, it has a purpose! It has darkness, but there are people to actually root for, who might not just end up dead and displayed on a door. Not that the Wall stuff is the only good thing to happen this season, but it has been a highlight, I think because it didn't need to make any of the characters any more villainous than in the books (which happens to most people in this show at various points, except Cersei and Saint Tyrion). They don't have to be. Its just a good, compelling story. 

 

The Game of Thrones books have always been a dark, violent, gritty fantasy.  It's an unglamorous story in a lot of ways.  But I do think as the show has gone on, D&D have been adding a lot of shocking things for the sake of being shocking.

Its not that I don't like Tyrion or root for him, because I actually do. I just think its annoying that anything he did or said in the book that could be construed as "bad" gets wiped away, or placed on other people, whereas we get Stannis killing his daughter, and Jaimie killing his cousin, and other "bad" stuff, because they aren't the creators favorite character. If I have any real issue with Show Tyron, its that he`s a bit less complex than Book Tyron, who I still like and root for, even with his various bad acts. He is basically always written as the best guy in the room, unlike the books, where he can frequently falter, even if he tries to do the right thing. 

 

Agreed about Tyrion.  I get why certain things about him were toned down and why they want to create a guy the audience can root for.  But they've whitewashed ALL of his negative personality traits and actions, rendering him an increasingly one-dimensional character.  It's only Peter Dinklage's performance and charisma that has made the character work so well on television.  There are many times were Tyrion is "the best guy in the room" but he has enough flaws and issues were you wouldn't at times want him in charge of anything.

 

As I've said before, the Meryn Trant pedophile thing is, like Ramsay's wedding night, straight from GRRM's writing. 

[joelene]

Why isn't Kevan and The Small Council doing anything about the High Sparrow and his cult? Why can't they break Cersei and Marge free? Get a few men in and kill those nuns for gods sake. Not that Cersei deserves to be rescued, but still.

Afraid there would be a rebellion?

ETA: I just realised they weren't even in the episode, but it crossed my mind. Sorry for the disruption!

So I'm on topic, here's an unpopular opinion. What was done to Shireen was horrific, but I still don't hate Stannis? I hope he slays Ramsay. And it was nice to see Selyse show some feelings for her daughter in the end.

Edited June 9, 2015 by joelene

[lucindabelle]

1. Dany's a bit of a pyro.

2. When forced to choose between saving her people and saving her dragon, Dany chose the dragon. Not very queen like.

 

That wasn't her choice at all. That's completely unfair. Had she not flown away on drogon, he'd have died, and her people too. How is that even a choice? She chose the lesser of two evils. "Protect your queen," was what was said. She was the important player there. And Drogon's death would serve nobody at all. I think she absolutely made the queenlike choice.

[henripootel]

When forced to choose between saving her people and saving her dragon, Dany chose the dragon. Not very queen like.

Well, Dany doesn't know her little ride is gonna last all that long (which it does in the book) so she's not abandoning her people as far as she knows.  Plus her guards will be in considerably less peril with her whisked to safety, and I assume that Daario and Jorah will take this opportunity to reap the fucking Sons like winter wheat.  I know this argument has gone on for a bit but Dany's guys aren't just guys with swords, they're the best killers of killers in that world.  They're not unbeatable but it damn well should take more than and en masse melee attack, something these guys trained for their entire lives.  Sorry - sword guy, and this annoys me.

Edited June 10, 2015 by henripootel

[Oscirus]

To be fair... People are a dime a dozen in this story... There are like hundreds of characters with names. There are 3 dragons in the entire world. I think Dragons have a higher priority especially since they're metaphorically her children and those other people are only sort of friends...

 

That thinking is incredibly short sighted. If her whole council and all those unsullied die then how is she taking over anything? That's not even mentioning the two dragons she has chained up unable to defend themselves.  Not to mention that most rulers who think like that generally tend to be villains.

 

I'm sure the writers will gloss over and choose to concentrate on the fact that she's special cuz she just rode a dragon.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Oscirus