S05.E07: The Gift

[Elkins]

Will Cersei and Margery have to do one of those "I hate you and you hate me, but together we just might be able to break out of this jail" schticks? I kind of hope so, 'cause I love those. Bonus points if they're shackled together at the ankle, and/or have to disguise themselves with fake mustaches or something.

As washerwomen! It's always washerwomen for some reason, either disguised as the washerwomen themselves, or hiding in the laundry that the washerwomen are carting about. Since there are two of them, maybe they can do both! But first, they'll have to have a catfight over which of them has to dress up as -- ugh! -- someone who works for a living.

 

With the monarchy in KL pretty much overthrown, is the Game of Thrones an exercise in futility?  If "the many don't fear the few" any more and overthrow the monarchy, there would be no throne to play for and the throne room would just be a ruin like in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying.

Nah. That would be a happy ending, and we all know how this show feels about happy endings.

 

 

I thought Tyene bared her breasts to get Bronn excited and make the poison work faster due to his heart pumping harder.  She did this after asking how his arm felt a couple of times and him replying that he felt fine. She got a kick out of the power trip.

 

That, and I think she also wanted him to start feeling the symptoms so that he would be willing to drink the antidote. Otherwise, from Bronn's point of view, it would be the daughter of this notorious poisoner trying to convince you to drink an unknown substance, one which she's been carrying around on her person like a spy with a cyanide tablet, because she claims that she poisoned you. Even though you're feeling perfectly fine. Yeah.

 

I don't think Bronn would ever have agreed to drink it under those circumstances, so once she decided she didn't want him to die, she had to find a way to get that poison working faster.

 

Nonetheless, I agree that it was totally gratuitous. That the writers were able to come up with a reason for Tyene to be flashing her boobs doesn't change the fact that the scene in question looked as if it had been filmed for the express purpose of illustrating the concept of the "male gaze."

 

They somehow forgot to make Gilly's baby age though (Little Sam should be a toddler of 1.5 to 2 years now.)

 

Right up until this episode, I cherished my twisted little head canon that Gilly's baby had actually died ages ago, but that no one had been able to bring themselves to explain to her what it means when a baby turns cold and stiff and stops suckling or crying. But then this week they had to go and show us a clearly-living baby, smiling and gurgling. Dammit!

 

Every time I look at Daario I can't help but thinks he looks like he works at a coffee shop in a gentrified part of Merreen!

 

Yes! Exactly! Every time he comes on screen, I murmur: "Oh, look, it's that guy. He lives in Brooklyn and works as a barista. And he's in a band."

 

I liked the old Daario better. He was hilariously OTT, and I found him weirdly believable as just the sort of preening douchebag that someone like Dany might well find appealing as a boy toy. It was just a far more fun take on the character. But I guess they decided it was too camp. Because, you know, heaven forbid we not be able to take the plotline with the magically fire-proof exiled princess and her three dragons seriously enough.

 

 

I thought it was a dress rehearsal. The winner gets to go to the Big Games in the capital. Really dumb to all fight to the death, though, when it's not even the main event. Wasteful in the extreme. What slave owner would agree to seeing his investment trashed without having a chance to properly train and improve for a comeback?

 

I thought the slave owner looked decidedly put out when Dany and Hizdahr showed up, and that's exactly what I assumed was his reason: because he knew that he was now going to lose a lot of his slaves in fights to the death. I imagine that if he hadn't had VIPs in the audience, he would have been ordering them to fight just to first blood or surrender, since the main objective was to determine which of them were good enough to compete in the big event. But I guess when the VIPs drop by, you have to put on a good show for them.

 

A pity no one told him in advance that Dany only likes violence when she's the one to initiate it.

 

 

I just noticed these posts referring to Walda as "fat Walda." Has this always been a thing? Because it is not okay.

 

Oh no! How awful that must have been sounding, yikes!

 

It's a carry-over from the book fandom. There are a lot of Waldas in the Frey family, so they all have nicknames like Fair Walda, Dark Walda, Fat Walda, Little Walda, Tall Walda, etc.  I'm sure that no one using it here had the slightest intention of fat-shaming either the character (who has a bit of a cult following among book readers) or her actress.

 

I don't understand the timing of this. If Lancel spilled all the beans when he converted, then sure, Head Sparrow would sit on it until it became useful to him. But then what 'gift of a young man' to Oleanna was Littlefinger talking about? Because if Littlefinger convinced Lancel to confess NOW, why isn't he in trouble for not fully confessing all his sins before his induction to the cult, ahem, religious sect? Or am I just assuming wrongly that he was talking about Lancel?

 

Well, the High Sparrow did say something about the boy only piece by piece divesting himself of sin. Maybe Lancel confessed to something like fornication with a married woman when he first joined the Sparrows, but never actually named the woman in question until Littlefinger told Olenna who told the High Sparrow who then confronted Lancel about it.

 

I don't know if I think that the High Sparrow knows about the regicide. Unlike adultery, that seems a pretty enormous crime to just be brushed off with a "well, you're obviously contrite, so all is forgiven." If he did spill about the regicide, I don't see how either he or Cersei would survive the fallout, and while Lancel is clearly pretty caught up in his fanaticism, I don't know if I think he's quite that suicidal.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Elkins

[wayne67]

I wondered that, too. Did Ramsey interrogate the candle?

 

I'm guessing that candle woman is the only other person than Myranda to have any interaction with Sansa. I doubt Ramsay would believe that Myranda would turn on him since she loves him and know what he does to people who bore him or insult him.

 

I think the idea is to break Sansa psychologically, deprive of her all human contact that he doesn't control and regularly brutalise her so she is simply a compliant broodmare. Though I am confused as to what the Boltons plans are for dealing with the Stark boys. Sansa is not as important as people keep making her out to be.

[NoWillToResist]

I don't know if I think that the High Sparrow knows about the regicide. Unlike adultery, that seems a pretty enormous crime to just be brushed off with a "well, you're obviously contrite, so all is forgiven." If he did spill about the regicide, I don't see how either he or Cersei would survive the fallout, and while Lancel is clearly pretty caught up in his fanaticism, I don't know if I think he's quite that suicidal.

 

I don't know, even in some "modern" religions, if you are truly repentant, you're forgiven. So, I would have no trouble believing that Lancel would be ok, especially since he has converted and joined them. Cersei? Not so much, methinks. :)

[Drogo]

I don't know, even in some "modern" religions, if you are truly repentant, you're forgiven.

 

Like this guy? 

 

[Mackey]

Someone else asked this but I don't think it was answered. What did LittleFinger do to gift Grandma since Lancel was already in the religious group? Also, going just by the TV show, would someone be kind enough to explain which, if any, of the religions that we've seen are the same as or a sub-category of others that we've seen? Just from the TV show. I'm totally lost in religion.

ETA. OOPS. timing issues. My Lancel question was answered very recently. Sorry

Edited May 27, 2015 by Mackey

[izabella]

I think LF's gift to Olenna isn't Lancel.   It must by Olyvar.  Olyvar is the one whose testimony put Loras and Margery in prison, Olyvar is the one who must testify at their trial, and Olyvar has been working for LF for a long time now.  Get rid of that young man Olyvar, and there is no one to testify at the trial against Loras and Margery!  I am thinking Olyvar's days are numbered.

 

 

[DigitalCount]

As far as I know, the religions we've seen thus far are pretty different:

- Old gods: a sort of spiritualist religion related to the use of tree-based icons. Focused mostly in the North.

- New gods/the Seven: Catholic analogue, represented by seven distinct personalities: three male, three female, one genderless. Currently experiencing a populist revival in the form of the Sparrows. Priests called "septons" or "septas," churches called "septs." One such sept in King's Landing (the main sept?) was built by a former ruler named Baelor. Focused throughout most non-northern regions of Westeros.

- Drowned god: deity associated with sea, practices baptism-like rituals with the phrase "what is dead may never die." Focused in Iron Islands.

- Lord of light: deity associated with fire and burning, where priests have powers that include but may not be limited to: resurrection, generation of smoke beings, clairvoyance, and poison immunity, though some of these may be Mel's own handiwork. Adopted by Stannis Baratheon, practiced in Essos at least somewhat.

- Red god: May be related or unrelated to the god venerated by Mel, possibly Death itself. Venerated by the Faceless and Syrio Forel (possibly). Focused in Braavos.

I hope I didn't forget anything, and that should be limited to show-only stuff.

Edited May 27, 2015 by DigitalCount

[candall]

On the show moving very slow:

 

I will posit that the first time (I am aware of, since I don't read the damn books) the writers went "off-book" was in the Blackwater episode. Some character said something about some military thing being 200 ft when in the book it was 400 ft and the book readers collectively lost their minds!! They are obsessed with every detail exactly matching Martin's books and raise hell when they don't. In addition, I went and looked at Wikipedia (and thank you Wikipedia for designing the page with no spoilers. Yay!) for the book publication dates and they started in 1996 with an average of 3-4 years between them, taking a total of 15 years to get the first 5 written. Wikipedia says there are two more books to go (as of now) so I think the showrunners are simultaneously trying to keep an HBO series going, kick a writer in the ass to write faster, and realizing that if they want to do the rest of this, they are going to have to make up the ending and do it. But, I also think the author isn't going to give up control of the end of this story and we may quickly be at that point where the characters completely diverge from the books and turn into fanfic. HBO has done it before (looking at you, True Blood) so it wouldn't surprise me. What I do know if that if we are going off-book, it's time to go off-book and quit with some of this stuff and move this story along. Commit to telling the HBO version of GoT and quit worrying about the George Martin version of GoT.

I haven't read the books either, but drums along the Mohawk suggest we're ALL about to be Unsullied.

 

It's somewhat telling that the White Walkers are actually among the most rootable characters in the series. I mean, other than walking dead attacking people north of the Wall (arguably their territory) about the worst we've ever seen a White Walker proper do is take a child that would otherwise be left to die and turn it into one of their own (basically adopting it into their family). Compared to the Boltons, Walder Frey, the majority of the Nights Watch and High Priestess Burn Everyone to Death they're practically saints too good for this wretched world.

 

There's a part of me that literally expects some sort of last season switcheroo where we learn that the Walkers are actually the good guys and the Wall was built by Bran Stark to keep them safe from all the wicked people south of the wall (which is why its an ICE wall and not some wall of fire that would actually hurt the Walkers in some way) and the Wardens of the North were supposed to be keeping those depraved southerners OUT rather than siding with them to keep those north of the Wall in.

Didn't the White Walkers create some kind of giant artsy-crafty project with severed horse heads?  I didn't like that.

[NoWillToResist]

Like this guy? 

 

 

I'm afraid your reference has gone over my head...

 

I think LF's gift to Olenna isn't Lancel.   It must by Olyvar.  Olyvar is the one whose testimony put Loras and Margery in prison, Olyvar is the one who must testify at their trial, and Olyvar has been working for LF for a long time now.  Get rid of that young man Olyvar, and there is no one to testify at the trial against Loras and Margery!  I am thinking Olyvar's days are numbered.

 

Olyvar dying would be too suspicious. I think it would be better to have Olyvar claim that Cersei forced him or blackmailed him to accuse Loras, thus, freeing Margaery and Loras, and further condemning Cersei! :)

Edited May 27, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[DarkRaichu]

I don't know, even in some "modern" religions, if you are truly repentant, you're forgiven. So, I would have no trouble believing that Lancel would be ok, especially since he has converted and joined them. Cersei? Not so much, methinks. :)

The High Sparrow mentioned to Cersei that forgiveness of the Mother (I guess it is one of their gods) was an option should Loras confess to his sins.  I bet Lancel was granted that forgiveness as they tattooed his forehead 

Edited May 27, 2015 by DarkRaichu

[Calamity Jane]

I'm afraid your reference has gone over my head...

 

 

I believe this is Sean Penn in Dead Man Walking, talking with Sister Prejean about being forgiven. 

[paigow]

As far as I know, the religions we've seen thus far are pretty different:

- Lord of light: deity associated with fire and burning, where priests have powers that include but may not be limited to: resurrection, generation of smoke beings, clairvoyance, and poison immunity, though some of these may be Mel's own handiwork. Adopted by Stannis Baratheon, practiced in Essos at least somewhat.

 

The Brotherhood Without Banners has some key members that are disciples.. Thoros & Beric...perhaps they will convert / recruit additional believers in Westeros.

[paigow]

Olyvar dying would be too suspicious...

Law & Order : KL

 

Briscoe: This corpse got a name? He looks familiar...

Curtis: Olyvar..Star witness against the Queen and her brother.

Littlefinger says Olyvar jumped off the brothel roof.

Briscoe: Hope somebody made a wish on this falling star...

 

Alternate ending:

Briscoe: That reminds me...gotta put a hundred on Man O Whore in the 5th...

Edited May 30, 2015 by paigow

[Pete Martell]

I liked the old Daario better. He was hilariously OTT, and I found him weirdly believable as just the sort of preening douchebag that someone like Dany might well find appealing as a boy toy. It was just a far more fun take on the character. But I guess they decided it was too camp. Because, you know, heaven forbid we not be able to take the plotline with the magically fire-proof exiled princess and her three dragons seriously enough.

 

I think the original Daario left because he got a role in a film.

 

My main problem with him is I thought he had no chemistry with Emilia Clarke, as this Daario doesn't either. 

 

On paper I get the idea of what Daario is supposed to be, and I think this actor was also somewhat campy before the whole Meereen setting came in (which has always been very somber), but he just seems superfluous to me, especially since the relationship with Dany was never built up enough to where I could believe she'd give his opinion that much weight.

[Chris24601]

Didn't the White Walkers create some kind of giant artsy-crafty project with severed horse heads?  I didn't like that.

They did, but half a dozen dead horses as a message saying "keep out of our lands" is a lot better than damned near anything we've seen pulled by rulers south of the Wall who aren't of Stark Blood. Even Dany threw one of the heads of the Mareen families to her dragons without even knowing if he was guilty or innocent.

 

Apart from their inhuman appearance and command of the dead the White Walkers really haven't shown themselves to be all that monstrous in the ways that the all too human cast has.

 

For that matter too, for all the talk of religious zealotry, we don't actually know what the Sparrows' punishments are for the crimes committed even if they're found guilty rather than making a confession. I think some of us are so used to the random slaughter of this show that we presume that its automatically death for all who violate the precepts and not something less severe. I for one, would laugh and laugh if, Cersai, having failed to ever read the seven-pointed star, didn't realize that the penalty for lying was just public shaming and time served while the penalty for incest was death.

[Drogo]

I believe this is Sean Penn in Dead Man Walking, talking with Sister Prejean about being forgiven. 

 

You're right, Calamity Jane -- I mentioned him because his character was a racist/homophobe/trashbag who raped and murdered two teens the night of their graduation, left their bodies in the woods, and tortured their parents throughout his trial... but he confessed hours before his execution and was "saved."

[RadiantAerynSun]

- Lord of light: deity associated with fire and burning, where priests have powers that include but may not be limited to: resurrection, generation of smoke beings, clairvoyance, and poison immunity, though some of these may be Mel's own handiwork. Adopted by Stannis Baratheon, practiced in Essos at least somewhat.

- Red god: May be related or unrelated to the god venerated by Mel, possibly Death itself. Venerated by the Faceless and Syrio Forel (possibly). Focused in Braavos.

I hope I didn't forget anything, and that should be limited to show-only stuff.

 

I am pretty sure there is at least some connection between the Lord of Light and the Red God of the Faceless men mostly because the passphrase was "Valar morghulis" (and answered with "Valar dohaeris"), which Melisandre also used as a greeting when she met up with the Brotherhood. Dany also knew this phrase, from Old Valyrian, so yeah must be some ties to Valyria (hello, Fire) and Essos.

 

I think the original Daario left because he got a role in a film.

 

My main problem with him is I thought he had no chemistry with Emilia Clarke, as this Daario doesn't either. 

 

On paper I get the idea of what Daario is supposed to be, and I think this actor was also somewhat campy before the whole Meereen setting came in (which has always been very somber), but he just seems superfluous to me, especially since the relationship with Dany was never built up enough to where I could believe she'd give his opinion that much weight.

 

This relationship grates, because yes, no chemistry, and also no build up. Last season he was just a smartass she was brushing off (and not even a particularly charming/clever one IMO) and then she decided one night to indulge (mostly as a power trip, it seemed), and what, now I'm supposed to believe she actually values his advice? Because why? I could picture the previous actor doing a better job of portraying Daario somehow ingratiating himself by  being just over-the-top enough to win her over in spite of herself. This guy, not so much. Too cookie cutter handsome-roguish-dude without enough of the rogue, not enough personality to distinguish himself from every other cookie cutter handsome-roguish dude.

[Calamity Jane]

You're right, Calamity Jane -- I mentioned him because his character was a racist/homophobe/trashbag who raped and murdered two teens the night of their graduation, left their bodies in the woods, and tortured their parents throughout his trial... but he confessed hours before his execution and was "saved."

There is a character in The Raj Quartet who comments that to her, as a Hindu, Christianity seems like a very lazy religion since all you have to do is repent your misdeeds before you die, there is no requirement that you truly suffer or truly repay somehow for your sins against others.  The older I get, the more I agree. These are deep waters, indeed, but I just can't get past that and accept that it's OK anymore. 

[JustaPerson]

The only genuine build up to Daario/Dany that I can think of is this (and the flirting during 4x03, while he's fighting the champion of Meeren)

 

https://youtu.be/Q8dII-NmjpA?t=143

Edited May 27, 2015 by JustaPerson

[annsterg]

I think Daario now has more influence because pretty much all Dany's other advisors/true loyalists are either dead, banished (back!), or grievously wounded so out of it for a while.

 

It will be interesting to see if a new dynamic develops when (spec not spoiler) Tyrion, Jorah, and possibly Varys join Dany's staff....

[NoWillToResist]

You're right, Calamity Jane -- I mentioned him because his character was a racist/homophobe/trashbag who raped and murdered two teens the night of their graduation, left their bodies in the woods, and tortured their parents throughout his trial... but he confessed hours before his execution and was "saved."

 

Well, that's one movie I'll never bother to see then. Thanks for the heads up! :)

 

 

I for one, would laugh and laugh if, Cersai, having failed to ever read the seven-pointed star, didn't realize that the penalty for lying was just public shaming and time served while the penalty for incest was death.

 

I think if Cersei were given the choice between death and a life without wine, she might actually choose death. ;)

[RedheadZombie]

I'm confused that Dany's fiancé will become the King of Mereen after they're married.  A king is always above a queen, which would make him more powerful.  I know that Queen Mary I of England, married Philip who became her "co-monarch", but those were special circumstances, and his powers ended when she died.  I'm sure I'm over-analyzing, but I don't want him having authority over Dany.

 

And wouldn't it be interesting if Dany wasn't infertile after all?  Surely that's the only way she gets away with keeping a lover after her marriage.

[Hecate7]

I don't much care whether the show is rooted in some kind of historical accuracy when it comes to the depiction of women, slavery, or anything else, really, because for me it never held itself up as that kind of show.  From my perspective it's a television show in the fantasy genre (a soap opera, albeit with good production values), so my only concern is whether or not the story being told is interesting or entertaining.  

 

The scene last night with Gilly felt cheap- is there a simpler way to separate the good characters from the bad and get much of the audience to have an emotional response than the threat of rape?

 

Well, there's having them kill someone, but if you want the other character for later, you have to think of something else. Besides, the good guys kill sometimes, too. What rape has over other indicators of evil is that unlike theft or murder, it's never in self defense. It's never in response to a survival need, unless a gun's to your head or your father's 50 guardsmen are pointing swords at you. Above all, it denies the other free will, and so it really is the perfect symbol. It's hard to come up with a better one that doesn't leave your good character either dead or dismembered. Finally, it is just so very common for bad guys to affirm or celebrate their victory with a rape, that it's kind of unavoidable in a story like this.

 

Subtler forms of evil are usually reserved for headmistresses of horrible girl's schools, etc...and are often too subtle for many audience members anyway.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

I'm confused that Dany's fiancé will become the King of Mereen after they're married.  A king is always above a queen, which would make him more powerful.  I know that Queen Mary I of England, married Philip who became her "co-monarch", but those were special circumstances, and his powers ended when she died.  I'm sure I'm over-analyzing, but I don't want him having authority over Dany.

 

And wouldn't it be interesting if Dany wasn't infertile after all?  Surely that's the only way she gets away with keeping a lover after her marriage.

 

 The King Consort does not outrank the Queen even in England. It was Victoria's choice to have Albert take over everything, but she didn't have to do that. No one expected her to. She still legally outranked him, she just abdicated that authority. Many queens have lovers after marriage. Most French queens, Tsarina Alexandria, Mary Queen of Scots, Eleanor of Aquitaine, and Catherine the Great, just to name a few.

 

Henry VIII was a divine right monarch and did not marry anybody who was actually a queen of anything. In fact he only married one princess--Catherine of Aragon. Anne of Cleves was the daughter of a Duke, as were most of his other wives. They were noble, but not royal, which is why he got away with treating them as he did.

 

Not only that, but Essos isn't analogous to England the way Westeros is, and so for all we know the city is traditionally ruled by a woman in the first place. We don't really know yet.

[DarkRaichu]

There is a character in The Raj Quartet who comments that to her, as a Hindu, Christianity seems like a very lazy religion since all you have to do is repent your misdeeds before you die, there is no requirement that you truly suffer or truly repay somehow for your sins against others.  The older I get, the more I agree. These are deep waters, indeed, but I just can't get past that and accept that it's OK anymore. 

Perhaps you might want to look into Buddhism where one works in perpetuity (through rebirths) to achieve enlightment

[Morrigan2575]

I'm confused that Dany's fiancé will become the King of Mereen after they're married.  A king is always above a queen, which would make him more powerful.  I know that Queen Mary I of England, married Philip who became her "co-monarch", but those were special circumstances, and his powers ended when she died.  I'm sure I'm over-analyzing, but I don't want him having authority over Dany.

 

And wouldn't it be interesting if Dany wasn't infertile after all?  Surely that's the only way she gets away with keeping a lover after her marriage.

I just assumed he would be King Consort, not actually King/Co-Ruler.

[annsterg]

Besides, the good guys kill sometimes, too.

 

I was just thinking earlier today that of all Starks we've met, Sansa (and invisible Rickon, although not sure if I should count Shaggy Dog's mayhem) is the only one who has not personally killed anyone...YET.

 

I think it's about time she did.

 

I don't think it will go down this way but would love it if she killed Ramsay AND his father.

[iMonrey]

 

I think LF's gift to Olenna isn't Lancel.   It must by Olyvar.  Olyvar is the one whose testimony put Loras and Margery in prison, Olyvar is the one who must testify at their trial, and Olyvar has been working for LF for a long time now.  Get rid of that young man Olyvar, and there is no one to testify at the trial against Loras and Margery!  I am thinking Olyvar's days are numbered.

 

It may be that Olyvar, rather than Lancel, is "the gift" Littlefinger spoke of, but then the title of this episode wouldn't be relevant to anything that happened in this episode. But if "the gift" was in fact Lancel, since it isn't clear how or why his confession went down and Cersei is only now being arrested, it may not be relevant to this episode in either case.

[Mz Anthrope]

 

 

 

The episode title is The Gift and gifts are, by definition, gratuitous.

Damn!  LOL  Directly into the pocket  :-D

[RedheadZombie]

A King consort is extremely uncommon. But I will go with it.

[Ambrosefolly]

There is a character in The Raj Quartet who comments that to her, as a Hindu, Christianity seems like a very lazy religion since all you have to do is repent your misdeeds before you die, there is no requirement that you truly suffer or truly repay somehow for your sins against others.  The older I get, the more I agree. These are deep waters, indeed, but I just can't get past that and accept that it's OK anymore. 

As Christian (or someone that aspires to be a Christian), I can tell you that becoming one is one of the toughest spiritual blocks that one encounters. Not surprising the guy who wrote The Raj Quartet wasn't an actual Hindu (or wasn't mentioned  on Wikipedia) , because I have worked with several Hindus over the last few years and none of them ever came said anything remotely like that to my face and one even told me she went to church once in a while because many Hindus see Jesus as an Avatar of God. And if you are not on death row (or have sometime before it happens) you absolutely are supposed to make restitution to those you have wrong. A good way to figure if someone is full of shit about their conversion is if they don't.

 

To paraphrase a blogger, GRRM describing religion is like having a person with lifelong blindness describing color (though I think the blind person would have more success). 

[Conan Troutman]

Quick question: Why didn't Melissandre simply take Aemon with them? He has king's blood and Stannis probably wouldn't object. Did they ever address that before?

[paigow]

Quick question: Why didn't Melissandre simply take Aemon with them? He has king's blood and Stannis probably wouldn't object. Did they ever address that before?

Maybe ritual blood has a maximum age constraint....a clear civil rights violation... 

[Mackey]

Thanks so much to the first person who answered my question about the religions! I loved the ensuing discussion, also.

[izabella]

It may be that Olyvar, rather than Lancel, is "the gift" Littlefinger spoke of, but then the title of this episode wouldn't be relevant to anything that happened in this episode. But if "the gift" was in fact Lancel, since it isn't clear how or why his confession went down and Cersei is only now being arrested, it may not be relevant to this episode in either case.

 

The title of the episode could be referring to Tyrion being Jorah's gift to Dany.

 

As for the timing, the High Sparrow didn't have the power, authority, or arms to arrest Cersei before now.  Cersei came to him, funded him, armed him, and supported him even when he imprisoned her in-laws.  Cersei gave him authority, and she gave him the power to arrest her that he didn't have before when Lancel was slowly confessing his secrets.

[Holmbo]

Who else is not a fan of the Shireen burning possibility? ;)

I feel like there's only two outcomes of it. Either Stannis burns her (at which point I don't think I could watch this show any longer, do I really want to watch a show where father's birth their children alive).

Or her doesn't burn her and then losses to the Boltons (for which the moral seems to be that any shred of decency in a character will be punished).

I guess there's the third option that he decides to burn her but Davos, or someone, intervenes.

[Andromeda]

The title of the episode could be referring to Tyrion being Jorah's gift to Dany.

I thought that was for sure, since he's the person/object actually called a gift in the episode. But of course, it's vague enough it can apply to lots of things, from trial witnesses recanting to antidotes to boobs.

[Kite]

I have the feeling Shireen won't be the puppy that gets kicked here. Even GoT is a bit selective about which puppies it kicks, especially children. Something interesting about the way she survived the disease will turn up, plus Stannis is surely eventually doomed anyway through his own character traits.

Uh yeah, agree that the ostensible rationalisation for the boobs scene was not meant to be the main takeaway from it.

Why is GRRM "colour-blind" about religion? Dude stated he's a "lapsed Catholic", so I presume he understands faith extremely well.

Oh and thankyou to the person who pointed out that despite the self-conscious positioning of the audience as modern moral judges, we're still supposed to applaud "good kings". It squicked me about LotR and it squicks me here, and I agree that it says something about our society(s).

[terrymct]

Quick question: Why didn't Melissandre simply take Aemon with them? He has king's blood and Stannis probably wouldn't object. Did they ever address that before?

 

 

Why is it this time that Melissandre seems to need more than a leech or two full of blood?   Speaking of leeches full of blood, she seems to be taking credit for all those deaths last season when, frankly, in Westeros the life expectancy of someone with the desire to rule seems to be rather short.    Melissandre couldn't take Aemon because GRRM and the screenwriters needed for her to want to use Shireen and not just for a leech full of blood.  Shireen is the only thing/person that Melisssandre could request from Stannis that he wouldn't give her.  Everything else in his life is up for debate, just not his daughter.

 

I'm wondering if Shireen's greyscale will play into all of this somehow other than giving her father a reason to feel guilty and her mother a reason to hate her.  Greyscale has certainly come to the forefront this season with Shireen being more prominent, the stone men being shown in Valeryia, and Ser Friendzone coming down with it and spreading it across the landscape around Slaver's Bay.  Is there something else to it other than just a horrible and difficult to cure disease?

[NoWillToResist]

I have the feeling Shireen won't be the puppy that gets kicked here. Even GoT is a bit selective about which puppies it kicks, especially children. Something interesting about the way she survived the disease will turn up, plus Stannis is surely eventually doomed anyway through his own character traits.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that we've had a fair bit of focus on the whole greyscale business (both via Shireen/Stannis and Jorah/Tyrion) recently. I think that will come into play one way or another. Maybe, Mel will try to burn her as a sacrifice and, like Dany, Shireen will be immune to fire? I wouldn't put it past Mel to try and kill Shireen behind Stannis' back. Hopefully that will cause him to finally cut ties with her...

 

Quick question: Why didn't Melissandre simply take Aemon with them? He has king's blood and Stannis probably wouldn't object. Did they ever address that before?

 

I suspect because Mel has been blathering on about the Baratheons being the true king's line, so she wouldn't acknowledge a Targaryan's lineage.

Edited May 28, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[cambridgeguy]

 

Quick question: Why didn't Melissandre simply take Aemon with them? He has king's blood and Stannis probably wouldn't object. Did they ever address that before?

I don't think the Night's Watch would approve of someone essentially kidnapping their maester.  The NW is supposed to be neutral and having a member accompany the army would be seen as breaking that vow.

 

 

Why is it this time that Melissandre seems to need more than a leech or two full of blood?   Speaking of leeches full of blood, she seems to be taking credit for all those deaths last season when, frankly, in Westeros the life expectancy of someone with the desire to rule seems to be rather short.

They've made Stannis look willfully ignorant for not questioning leech power.  It's not like Robb dropped dead for no obvious reason - that setup was in place long before the leeches.  I suppose they could argue that Joffrey died from some divine intervention that looked like poison, although that's a stretch given how many people hated the guy.  Most importantly, Balon is still alive, even if he is apparently irrelevant given that no one has said a word about him.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As washerwomen! It's always washerwomen for some reason, either disguised as the washerwomen themselves, or hiding in the laundry that the washerwomen are carting about.

Like Little Orphan Annie and Mr. Bundles!

[Holmbo]

Oh and thankyou to the person who pointed out that despite the self-conscious positioning of the audience as modern moral judges, we're still supposed to applaud "good kings". It squicked me about LotR and it squicks me here, and I agree that it says something about our society(s).

It doesn't squick me exactly but it's certainly interesting. What people are ready to accept as OK in the context of the characters situation and the society and what is deemed as objectively wrong and inexcusable.

[Drogo]

I suspect because Mel has been blathering on about the Baratheons being the true king's line, so she wouldn't acknowledge a Targaryan's lineage.

 

Wasn't the other Red Woman (in Volantis) going on about Daenerys Targaryen being the true and rightful Queen?

[Calamity Jane]

As Christian (or someone that aspires to be a Christian), I can tell you that becoming one is one of the toughest spiritual blocks that one encounters. Not surprising the guy who wrote The Raj Quartet wasn't an actual Hindu (or wasn't mentioned  on Wikipedia) , because I have worked with several Hindus over the last few years and none of them ever came said anything remotely like that to my face and one even told me she went to church once in a while because many Hindus see Jesus as an Avatar of God. And if you are not on death row (or have sometime before it happens) you absolutely are supposed to make restitution to those you have wrong. A good way to figure if someone is full of shit about their conversion is if they don't.

 

To paraphrase a blogger, GRRM describing religion is like having a person with lifelong blindness describing color (though I think the blind person would have more success). 

To be fair, I think the character's point was not that most Christians don't live good lives or strive to be good people, only that that is not required as long as one repents before death.  So it is possible to live a life of pure evil and do no reparation except to repent before one's last breath.  Hindus do not view the world this way, so to them it could seem awfully easy. Of course they could revere Jesus and think his teachings about living a good life blend well with their beliefs, except I doubt they could be OK with the instant clean slate, since their religion teaches that one pays or is rewarded in the next life for deeds in this life. 

 

Paul Scott spent some but not a lot of years in India,  but I don't think one would have to be a deep expert to come up with the above.  And since so much of his novel embeds experiences he himself underwent during World War II, I think it's probably safe to assume that someone said this to him at some point.  He puts it in the mouth of Lady Chatterjee, a frequent commenter on the central theme of the book, the clash of English and Indian cultures during the Raj, and herself represents a blend of the two points of view.

[Morrigan2575]

Who else is not a fan of the Shireen burning possibility? ;)

I feel like there's only two outcomes of it. Either Stannis burns her (at which point I don't think I could watch this show any longer, do I really want to watch a show where father's birth their children alive).

Or her doesn't burn her and then losses to the Boltons (for which the moral seems to be that any shred of decency in a character will be punished).

I guess there's the third option that he decides to burn her but Davos, or someone, intervenes.

4th - Stannis says no but his crazy wife does it behind his back.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[MrWhyt]

 

Quick question: Why didn't Melissandre simply take Aemon with them? He has king's blood and Stannis probably wouldn't object. Did they ever address that before?

Do Stannis and Melissandre know that he was a Targaryen? Jon nad Sam knew and it it might have common knowledge in the Watch but did anyone fill Stannis or Melissandre in on this?

[Conan Troutman]

I suspect because Mel has been blathering on about the Baratheons being the true king's line, so she wouldn't acknowledge a Targaryan's lineage.

 

That would make sense. I think I'm going with that one. That would also explain why Mance wasn't good enough despite being King beyond the Wall, at least Mel never really considered him as suitable as Shireen as far as I remember.

 

I don't think the Night's Watch would approve of someone essentially kidnapping their maester.  The NW is supposed to be neutral and having a member accompany the army would be seen as breaking that vow.

 

But why would Stannis care about that? He saved their asses and could simply demand that they give up Aemon. I'm not sure if he even would need to accompany them. Couldn't they just burn him right there? Or do they need a certain proximity? If so, the Lord of Light needs to get his shit together.

 

Do Stannis and Melissandre know that he was a Targaryen? Jon nad Sam knew and it it might have common knowledge in the Watch but did anyone fill Stannis or Melissandre in on this?

 

I thought it was common knowledge pretty much everywhere. I mean, giving up the Iron Throne to go to the fucking Wall would be like the biggest news ever, not only in Westeros. The reveal he was a Targaryen was more for the audience.

 

Wasn't the other Red Woman (in Volantis) going on about Daenerys Targaryen being the true and rightful Queen?

 

Another reason why I think Mel will ditch Stannis and end up in Camp Dany. That's what I think/hope the whole sacrificing Shireen plot will turn out to be: Stannis refusing will make Mel part ways with him.

[Drogo]

Another reason why I think Mel will ditch Stannis and end up in Camp Dany. That's what I think/hope the whole sacrificing Shireen plot will turn out to be: Stannis refusing will make Mel part ways with him.

 

Or Melisandre's just hanging with Stannis long enough to make him attack/sacrifice anyone with Baratheon blood (Renly, Gendry, Shireen) and get crushed by the Boltons and clear the path for the Dragon Queen.  The Lord of Light isn't supporting Dany and Stannis, so one of his Red Priestesses is lying.

[MrWhyt]

I thought it was common knowledge pretty much everywhere. I mean, giving up the Iron Throne to go to the fucking Wall would be like the biggest news ever, not only in Westeros. The reveal he was a Targaryen was more for the audience.

But that happened before any of the main characters were even born (Aemon was Dany's Great-Grandfather). Sam, the bookish one, didn't know before it was revealed to him, why should we assume Stannis and Mel did?