General True Crime Shows

[Tabbygirl521]

On 3/16/2020 at 8:13 PM, LuvMyShows said:

Celeste's mother got so very very angry and animated that the daughters were saying they saw Celeste in bed with Tracy but had no pictures of that.  What the what?  I think the girls said that it happened once, so how the hell were they supposed to get pictures?!  The new husband (Tracy's FIFTH?) said there was no financial gain to Celeste from the murder, but surprise surprise, there was a sh*tload of financial gain.  And boy oh boy Celeste could sure spend money like a champ....$450K in six months?!  I've never seen so many of the leads be proved false, and I can only remember one other time where they really, really tried to convince the family members to come to peace with realizing that the loved one did do it.  That fifth husband has been so duped by Celeste, and is giving up everything in his life for her. I hope he has his eyes opened from this...the mom damn sure never will.

Celeste! It took a minute for this post to click with me, but now I remember I actually read a book about this case and was just mesmerized by the insanity. I want to say maybe Diane Fanning wrote it? That poor man!! (Maybe I should say MEN.) I need to watch this. 

[ratgirlagogo]

Hey, greetings to my fellow true crime addicts!  Haven't posted on this board for quite a while, but I just wanted to alert you all that the second season of Vice TV's The Dark Side of the Ring premieres tomorrow night, March 24th. It covers crimes and scandals in the world of professional wrestling.   If, unlike me, you don't love professional wrestling, you may not have much interest in the whole series.  But I think all of you will be interested in this season's  first two episodes, which cover the Chris Benoit double murder-suicide case.  Part one is already available online through the vice.com website, as is all of season one.

Edited March 24, 2020 by ratgirlagogo

[LuvMyShows]

Good grief.  I was watching ID's My Murder Story, episode The Secrets We Keep, and either the killer had the absolute most inept defense attorney in the history of the world, or there's something I don't understand about biology.  There was no question about who did it, and it appeared from the story that it probably was somehow related to self-defense and an accidental death.  But the guy got 20 years because as the victim lay dying from a neck wound, the guy didn't apply a tourniquet to the neck.  AYFKM?

And also, another story of police incompetence, this time on Oxygen's Murdered By Morning, episode Gambling with Death.  A woman left a casino where she won $5K.  She then drove to pick up her kids at her ex's house, and witnesses saw a car pull up behind her and a man got out and kidnapped her.  The witnesses saw the car (a maroon Beretta) and what he was wearing (a red ball cap and a blue jeans jacket).  The cops set up a tipline, and a woman called in saying that she thought her husband may have done it, since he was wearing that outfit and driving her maroon Beretta that night.  But the cops thought she sounded unconvincing, and since oftentimes people call up such tips falsely to get revenge on someone, they put her tip on the bottom of the list and never did anything with it.

So I'm of course thinking, did the casino have video of the victim?  Maybe they can find the perp this way.  They did look at the video to watch her being walked to her car by the security guard, given that she had taken the $5K in cash.  Now, I am not a detective, but you know what else I would have looked for on the video?  How about whether there was someone in the casino wearing a red ball cap and a blue jeans jacket, in close proximity to the victim?  How about video from shortly AFTER the victim is walked to her car by the guard, in case someone is following her?  (You know, the standard stuff we seem to see on Walmart videos all the time.)  Nope, they did neither, because finally when something happened later (I forget what), that caused them to re-visit the lady's tip, they looked more closely at the casino video and did in fact see the tip lady's husband in the casino wearing a red ball cap and blue jeans jacket, and he left the casino 30 SECONDS after the victim was walked to her car, and he got into a MAROON BERETTA and went off in the same direction the victim did.  I can't even.

[Annber03]

On 3/24/2020 at 4:25 AM, ratgirlagogo said:

Hey, greetings to my fellow true crime addicts!  Haven't posted on this board for quite a while, but I just wanted to alert you all that the second season of Vice TV's The Dark Side of the Ring premieres tomorrow night, March 24th. It covers crimes and scandals in the world of professional wrestling.   If, unlike me, you don't love professional wrestling, you may not have much interest in the whole series.  But I think all of you will be interested in this season's  first two episodes, which cover the Chris Benoit double murder-suicide case.  Part one is already available online through the vice.com website, as is all of season one.

I just watched this. I don't follow wrestling (I might have heard of a couple of the bigger names here and there, and seen occasional clips of matches, but that's about the extent of my knowledge of the industry), but I remember this story being in the news and all that, and I remember all the back and forth over the circumstances surrounding this. I was curious to see how those involved would reflect on this tragic story all these years later. 

And hoo boy, talk about emotional. Those last five minutes or so legit made me cry. I won't spoil it for those who've yet to see this, but, yeah. That really got me. 

As for the rest of the documentary...

-Everything with David broke my damn heart into pieces. That poor, poor child. His memory of the day he got the news...man. His recollections of his time with his brother Daniel were especially moving. You could see the love they had for each other, and I love him talking about how Nancy treated him, too. I just wanted to give him the world's biggest hug. 

(Also, on the one hand, I shouldn't be all that shocked to hear that some kids bullied and teased him after his dad's death, because assholes, unfortunately, but on the other hand, what the actual hell, people?)

-My heart goes out to Sandra as well. Her thing about tucking into a blanket all snug and safe also got to me. I can very much understand her struggling with forgiveness. That'd be incredibly hard. And amen to her comment about how the media should've given the family their space to grieve. Anyone exploiting this tragedy and disrupting her family's mourning should be ashamed of themselves, but of course, if they were capable of shame, they wouldn't do things like that in the first place.

-There's something really eerie about the fact that Chavo got wind of both the death of his uncle and those weird, unsettling texts from Chris at 5 something in the morning each time. 

And then his memory of his uncle's death. Without getting too specific, let's just say I can identify a bit with what he went through there, so...yeah. Just awful. The whole thing about how Chris reacted to Eddie's death was interesting, too. I mean, yeah, obviously he's right to grieve his friend. The fact he was so young and died so abruptly would just add to the devastation. But I also agree there was likely some much deeper pain that went beyond that that he was dealing with as well.

-I can understand the WWF wanting to honor Benoit the night they initially got the news. Yes, those tributes became horribly awkward and uncomfortable when more information came to light, but at the time, simply wanting to address the sudden death of a notable figure right away, in any industry, makes sense in and of itself. I won't begrudge them that. 

Having said that, the fact that nobody in the WWF, save for Chavo and Jericho, reached out to Nancy's family or to David afterward? Fuck that. I completely get and respect not wanting to speak honorably of a guy who committed such a horrific crime, but the family had no part in that. It's not fair they got shut out in the process. Not at a time when they really needed the support, and especially when you consider all the time, hard work, and sacrifice they put into that industry. "Thanks for nothing", I guess.

-I do think McMahon was right to some degree about Chris' crime not being a rage incident, given how planned out that weekend was. Sandra's comment about previous instances of abuse didn't surprise me, either. I think there's definitely some truth to the concussion/steroid theories*-hell, there's been talk about how some killers have some kind of damage to a certain part of their brain that controls that part of things. That stuff certainly wouldn't have helped matters, no. Even if Chris didn't do this, all that stuff still would've fucked him up somehow. 

But there's also plenty of people who suffer those kinds of concussions and steroid abuse who don't commit these kinds of crimes. I can see where those problems might have just exacerbated some part of him that could've been already lurking within. Sort of like how people talk about alcohol enhancing certain aspects of somebody's personality that already existed. I mean, the way he killed Nancy...that's obviously not a spontaneous attack. That's a clear sign that this is not the first time he's done something like that to her. The fact they went into detail about her murder, but Sandra refused to open up about that one incident that led to Nancy staying with her for a time...that struck me. That's disturbing. 

*I find it utterly bizarre that people didn't seem to think much about, or brushed off, the long-term effects of what being repeatedly hit by a chair or another wrestler or whatever could do to one's head, that it has to take things like this to finally make people go, "Oh, gee, yeah, maybe we should stop doing that and look more into this problem." Ya think? We're seeing the same thing in football now, too. The head is a very fragile thing, and way too many people seem to forget that. 

-So much tragic irony here. Nancy leaving one abusive relationship only to find another, and Chris wanting to be remembered, and working so hard to get that recognition...only to completely destroy any chance of the positive version of that with his actions. 

Yeah. Just a hideously sad story all the way around. I'm curious to see what those who are more familiar with the wrestling world and its ins and outs and ups and downs would have to say about all of this, too. I may have to check out more of this series. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Annber03

[andromeda331]

The wife Denise in Sex & Murder episode on HLN was stupid. She actually had a chance to get away scot free for her first husband's murder and didn't. The Detectives pretty much pointed that out to her. That once they talked to her current husband he would definitely talk. Which of course he would he was looking at the rest of his life in jail for his kidnapping her talking about the murder and getting a deal was the only option he had. Also considering he did kidnap her and had brought all the supplies with him to make her disappear you'd think that would have prompted her to talk. Nope so she got life in prison and he got twenty years for kidnapping her.  

How weird was it that she was having an affair with her husband's best friend and his wife? I wonder when the best friend's wife found out that her husband had at one point considered killing her too? Especially considering his reaction to Denise leaving him was to get all the things needed to make her disappear and kidnap her. What a psycho. 

[LuvMyShows]

Oh for Pete's sake, more police incompetence.  On Forensic Files II, The Ambush, a husband was killed when he went to the mailbox -- the mailboxes for the community were all together about 2 blocks from the house he lived in with his wife.  It wasn't a robbery, so that means it was likely planned.  Hmmm, now I wonder how the killer would have known that the husband was at the mailbox at that specific time?  The only person home with him was the wife.  Can we put 2 + 2 together and start checking out the wife?  Nope.  The police did eventually circle back to the wife but only after people began coming to the police on their own with suspicions about a man that the wife had been seen with.  Sure enough, she hatched a plan with some guy she was in love with, to kill her husband.  

[nokat]

On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 5:18 PM, LuvMyShows said:

Oh for Pete's sake, more police incompetence.

I've addressed that previously. Small towns, the perfect place to raise your kids, it would never happen here.  Police force from Mayberry. You don't ever want to light up a room when you walk in.  It angers me, the cases that go cold for decades.
 

[LuvMyShows]

For anyone else who had not been aware of some new shows:

Sex & Murder on HLN.  New shows Mondays at 9 pm.  Replays of previous episodes are showing Tuesday at 1 and 2 pm, Friday at 5:00 pm, and Saturday at 12, 1, 8, and 9 pm.  I don't know if that's every week, but that's what it shows at this point.  I cannot find the replays on demand on the go.cnn.com site.

Vengeance, Killer Lovers was on HLN in 2019.  I don't see repeats on the current HLN schedule, but the replays are on go.cnn.com

Vengeance, Killer Co-Workers was on HLN in January and February.  I don't see repeats on the current HLN schedule, and I don't see replays on go.cnn.com

[Tdoc72]

On 3/24/2020 at 10:10 PM, LuvMyShows said:

And also, another story of police incompetence, this time on Oxygen's Murdered By Morning, episode Gambling with Death.  

Snipped by me

I agree the police should’ve checked the tip. But what bothered me about this episode was the ex-father-in-law implying that just because his son’s ex married a rich man, his son shouldn’t have to pay child support anymore. They’re still his kids/your grandkids. 

[Razzberry]

Looks like Paul Holes is onto another serial killer, this time in Atlanta. One of the women had the presence of mind to record him as he was getting rough with her.  Holes is pretty sure at least two murders are tied and already has a suspect named, with DNA testing underway.

I like shows like his and Cold Justice where they get off their asses and actually do something to help solve these cases.

[Persnickety1]

I apparently absolutely suck at using the search engine.  

Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction to find discussion of the oh-so-epic Tiger King on Netflix?  It's billed as a true crime documentary, but I can't find it anywhere.  

Grazi!!!  ❤️  

[punkypower]

13 minutes ago, Persnickety1 said:

I apparently absolutely suck at using the search engine.  

Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction to find discussion of the oh-so-epic Tiger King on Netflix?  It's billed as a true crime documentary, but I can't find it anywhere.  

Grazi!!!  ❤️  

Enjoy!

[Persnickety1]

1 minute ago, punkypower said:

Enjoy!

Grazi, @punkypower!  😄  

[One Tough Cookie]

Oxygen is showing a 2 part four hour documentary the the West Memphis Three two hours were last  nite, this was lat tonight,it conclude tonite.

I'm you you can catch  it on Demand. I  highly recommend it--three boys dead d three you men convicted for for something they didn't do {one on Death Row}and 3 parents without answer abou what happened their boys.

Edited March 31, 2020 by One Tough Cookie

[punkypower]

No problem at all, @Persnickety1!! 💚💛💜

I'll see you there once I finish the last three episodes!!

[Esmeralda]

On 3/1/2020 at 10:43 PM, LuvMyShows said:

I finally got to watch Forensic Files II today and the show was very very very disappointing for the lack of forensics.  Plus at 20 minutes, there isn't enough time for the story to get fleshed out so the viewer can make theories about what happened.  But I'll probably keep watching anyway because, well, I'm hooked on these shows!

If I hear Peter Thomas' voice, I can lay down and fall asleep listening to his voice, even if I've "watched" the episode a hundred times - I've fallen asleep to his voice ever since it was on HLN and used to when it was on Court TV.  This guy?  Once I know what happens and I see it again, I'm bored and change channels. They chose one of the worst voices for Forensic Files.

[LuvMyShows]

The HLN show Sex & Murder just had an episode on the Paige Birgfeld murder.  And I've probably said this before in response to seeing it on other franchises, but it just rings so hollow that everything she was doing was for her kids, which would include the escort service she ran.  She was living in a freaking 6,000-foot house.  Maybe if she had sold the house, and moved into something smaller, she wouldn't have had to be away from the kids so much doing the escort work, those kids that she was supposedly doing everything for.  Or maybe if she wasn't doing the escort service so much (which made between $250 and $3000 per encounter), she could have found a better paying real job, or put more effort into the 3 side hustles that everyone thought paid the bills.  I'm sure she was a very nice lady, but the Saint Paige act seems a bit much.   

[Razzberry]

On 3/30/2020 at 7:08 PM, LuvMyShows said:

The HLN show Sex & Murder just had an episode on the Paige Birgfeld murder.  And I've probably said this before in response to seeing it on other franchises, but it just rings so hollow that everything she was doing was for her kids, which would include the escort service she ran.  She was living in a freaking 6,000-foot house. 

Yeah, it's not like she was unskilled or had no other options.  I'm sure the kids would rather downsize than have a prostitute sex worker for a mom.  That can mess up a kid's head.

On an unrelated podcast someone objected to the host using the term prostitute, claimed it was offensive.  News to me.

[Annber03]

Ooooookay, so I'm watching that thing on the West Memphis Three on the ID channel right now. I've had a general idea of the main story, but that was about it, I don't think I've ever really heard all the details before. 

Anywho, they're currently talking about when they found the bodies of the three little boys, and holy. fucking. shit. What a nightmare. Just giving a heads up to anyone who hasn't yet seen this and/or may not know the details, it's...hideously graphic. Those poor boys. Those poor families. 

I hope that the people who had to retrieve those kids' bodies got some serious therapy or something to help them afterward, 'too, cause I don't know how the hell you manage to cope with seeing that. 

ETA: The whole thing with the "OMG IT'S THE OCCULT!" nonsense, though...I can't with any of this. On the one hand, I'm not surprised that people fell so easily for this, but on the other hand, it's still stunning that they did regardless.

But then to actually think that would be valid enough evidence to include in a murder trial. I get where they see the ritualistic aspect, but even then, these kinds of killings are also the sort that heavily indicate the killer has murdered before, or committed other notably violent crimes, at the very least. One would think the fact these kids had no history of committing prior murders would've given them significant pause, but apparently not. 

(I'm especially amused at the occult aspect because Jason mentions that Damian introduced him to the music of U2, who are....Christians. They're about as far from aggressive/violent and occult-oriented as you can get.)

Edited April 6, 2020 by Annber03

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

I hope that the people who had to retrieve those kids' bodies got some serious therapy or something to help them afterward, 'too, cause I don't know how the hell you manage to cope with seeing that. 

I guess they coped by screaming "Satan!" and railroading a bunch a teenagers. 

Quote

But then to actually think that would be valid enough evidence to include in a murder trial. 

It's nuts. And far from the only time that this nonsense has come into play in actual trials, with and without murder.  

Quote

(I'm especially amused at the occult aspect because Jason mentions that Damian introduced him to the music of U2, who are....Christians. They're about as far from aggressive/violent and occult-oriented as you can get.)

Something I find amusing is the whole "he wears all black, OMG!!!" nonsense. If you notice in photos, a few of the black shirts are just Harley Davidson or sports-related -- nothing remotely "gothy."

I found this ID coverage of this case to be just "eh." A couple of minor details not right and the reenactments were dumb. The Oxygen one is far better and features a lot more than the details that everyone already knows. And, of course, so is West of Memphis and the Paradise Lost series.

Edited April 6, 2020 by TattleTeeny

[LuvMyShows]

I watched the two DNA of Murder episodes that were related -- Voice of a Killer and Killer Connection.  And I am puzzled by something.  They portrayed it that the victim Jennifer intentionally placed that call to her friend, that ended up being recorded (on the friend's answering machine), where Jennifer can be heard having that financial/payment discussion with the unknown perp. But if it truly was intentional, then why didn't Jennifer give way more clues on her end of the conversation, like the guy's name, or instead of just saying she forgot about giving him some payment, she would have said, "I'm sorry I forgot to pay you for the yard work you did on Thursday".  Also, IIRC, they played an interview with the guy (Charles?) that is apparently now having his DNA looked into for a match, and he sounded nothing like the guy on Jennifer's recording, even though they are assuming that the same guy did both crimes.  I also didn't understand why there were two different episodes, when they already gave away all the discovered information at the end of the first episode.

I also watched the next episode after that, High School Homicide, and I was confused about the timeline and the actions that occurred.  The things that would have occurred would be the abduction, calling the police, police arriving at the crime scene (where the boyfriend presumably would have remained), and police arriving at the abducted girlfriend's house.  They mentioned that something happened at I think 12:23 am, but I think they said that was the abduction.  And the only other time that I remember hearing about was around 1:48 am, and I think that was at the girl's house.  So...how and when were the police called?  This took place before cell phones, so he would have had to go into the bowling alley to call the police.  Where are the interviews with the bowling alley personnel and customers?  The show kept talking about a time lag before he showed up at the girl's house, but why would he have done that at all?  I would think the police would come to the crime scene, where he would have been instructed to remain, then he would go to his own home.  Inquiring minds want to know!

[Annber03]

7 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

It's nuts. And far from the only time that this nonsense has come into play in actual trials, with and without murder.  

When the prosecutor going on about how numerous murders have been done in the name of religion, I was sitting here going, "Great, so does that mean Christianity gets to be on trial the way you're putting Wicca and other non-Christian beliefs on trial, then?" I'm sure the people in that town would've just loved that. I'm not surprised that that "occult expert" sticks by his belief those boys are guilty, but at the same time, I want to slap him upside the head. Some people really will just dig in their heels and refuse to see reason. 

And then they're all, "Listening to heavy metal on its own isn't bad, wearing black on its own isn't bad, etc., but put it all together and you have something wrong here...". Uh. No, you don't. None of that proves they committed a murder. That's not how murder investigations work. 

The families of those poor kids who were killed still don't have any proper answers, and whoever did kill them is still out there, all because the police and the town wasted their time listening to a bunch of superstitious, ignorant bullshit and bungled their investigation. Great job, guys. 

Quote

 

Something I find amusing is the whole "he wears all black, OMG!!!" nonsense. If you notice in photos, a few of the black shirts are just Harley Davidson or sports-related -- nothing remotely "gothy."

I found this ID coverage of this case to be just "eh." A couple of minor details not right and the reenactments were dumb. The Oxygen one is far better and features a lot more than the details that everyone already knows. And, of course, so is West of Memphis and the Paradise Lost series.

 

LOL, right? So much ignorance on display, it's amazing. 

I'll have to check out those other documentaries you listed at some point. 

[TattleTeeny]

Oh, do it! I still to this day get all charged up -- like yelling about justice while my BF "yes dear"s me -- over the first Paradise Lost doc, even though it is so old and the 3 guys are out of prison! And do not even get me started on that Dale Griffis, the so-called occult expert. On any given day, I (a woman in my late 40s with an office job) am like nine-tenths murderer in his eyes: heavy metal T-shirts, check; somewhat goth aesthetic, check; black fingernails, check; crime/horror/occult books; check...

Also, check out the story of the McMartin preschool case from the '80s. It is absolute insanity.

[Annber03]

30 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Oh, do it! I still to this day get all charged up -- like yelling about justice while my BF "yes dear"s me -- over the first Paradise Lost doc, even though it is so old and the 3 guys are out of prison! And do not even get me started on that Dale Griffis, the so-called occult expert. On any given day, I (a woman in my late 40s with an office job) am like nine-tenths murderer in his eyes: heavy metal T-shirts, check; somewhat goth aesthetic, check; black fingernails, check; crime/horror/occult books; check...

Ha, yeah, I'm sure that guy could find some proof that I was supposedly into all that "scary" stuff, too, if he wanted to :p.

The whole "Satanic murder" thing is also stupid because whenever people who do commit those kinds of murders try and use that "I was possessed by the devil/evil spirits" defense, it's because they're either a) trying to get an insanity plea, or b) think they're way edgier and darker than they actually are. It's all a front. There are definitely criminals out there that I believe are legit evil (whoever murdered these children certainly qualifies under that description), but do I think they're possessed by Satanic/evil spirits or other nonsense like that? No. They're just simply awful excuses for human beings. Period. It really doesn't have to go any deeper than that. 

Quote

Also, check out the story of the McMartin preschool case from the '80s. It is absolute insanity.

Ooh, yeah, I've heard a bit about that case, too, but again, don't know all the details (I would've been just a little kid in the late '80s-around the age that the children in that case would've been, actually). I'll look up more on that one, too. Any particularly good books/documentaries about it worth checking out? 

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

b) think they're way edgier and darker than they actually are. 

So true! I mean, all the metal kids in the history of the world probably go through a "look how antiestablishment I am!" phase and that would probably be even more pronounced and "crazy" in the more religious sections of the country.  

Also, I think the general public's understanding of "Satanism" is rooted in (awesome) movies and most people probably have never read the actual tenets of Satanism, which are generally "live and let live." (Sometimes I have the urge to post these tenets on Facebook with no explanation and see how many "like"s I get from people who would be scandalized if they knew where they came from, hahahhaha! I really should do that.)

Edited April 7, 2020 by TattleTeeny

[Annber03]

58 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Also, I think the general public's understanding of "Satanism" is rooted in (awesome) movies and most people probably have never read the actual tenets of Satanism, which are generally "live and let live." (Sometimes I have the urge to post these tenets on Facebook with no explanation and see how many "like"s I get from people who would be scandalized if they knew where they came from, hahahhaha! I really should do that.)

Go for it :D! Exactly! There's also the fact that somebody can read up on a particular topic/belief system or whatever, but that doesn't automatically mean they believe or agree with it. Sometimes it's simple curiosity. Sometimes it's wanting to hear the other side's argument, if only to help you fine tune the arguments for your side. Some people are just voracious bookworms and like to read any and everything they can get their hands on :p. And so on. Just as I hated seeing these people misrepresent Wicca and Satanism as they did, it's also safe to say that these particular Christians' beliefs are not representative of many Christians out there, If I were a Christian, I'd be pretty insulted that these people think they speak for that faith and all who follow it. 

On a different note, I shudder to think of what could've happened had that law regarding DNA testing not passed in Arkansas a few years after the boys were convicted. Talk about a lucky break. This case is a perfect example of why I feel as I do about the death penalty. 

[TattleTeeny]

I can't think of anything off the top of my head to read or watch about the McMartin thing -- I can't even remember why I know about it at all, haha! But I think maybe True Crime Garage did a podcast on it?

I have to admit I am fine with the death penalty IF there is no kind of doubt about the crime whatsoever (for instance, Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy). But, considering how things go all too often, I guess that's the same as saying I probably am not for it after all, then.

Oh, as for podcasts, I highly recommend Truth & Justice with Bob Ruff (it's actually helped get appeals for wrongfully convicted people); season 5 of it is all about the West Memphis 3 and, man, is it thorough!

Edited April 7, 2020 by TattleTeeny

[CatMomma]

18 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Ha, yeah, I'm sure that guy could find some proof that I was supposedly into all that "scary" stuff, too, if he wanted to :p.

The whole "Satanic murder" thing is also stupid because whenever people who do commit those kinds of murders try and use that "I was possessed by the devil/evil spirits" defense, it's because they're either a) trying to get an insanity plea, or b) think they're way edgier and darker than they actually are. It's all a front. There are definitely criminals out there that I believe are legit evil (whoever murdered these children certainly qualifies under that description), but do I think they're possessed by Satanic/evil spirits or other nonsense like that? No. They're just simply awful excuses for human beings. Period. It really doesn't have to go any deeper than that. 

Ooh, yeah, I've heard a bit about that case, too, but again, don't know all the details (I would've been just a little kid in the late '80s-around the age that the children in that case would've been, actually). I'll look up more on that one, too. Any particularly good books/documentaries about it worth checking out? 

Not a documentary, but there was a movie on HBO called "Indictment:The McMartin Trial" that I remember being really good. If you have Amazon Prime, I think you can watch it for free. 

Now I want to watch it again. It was made in 95, so might be a bit dated.

[TattleTeeny]

Ooooooh, yes I will watch that (much to the BF's dismay)!

[LuvMyShows]

Watched the new show on ID, If I Should Die.  The first episode, Unfinished Business, was about a 15-year old girl who disappeared and was found murdered.  She had snuck out of the house, so the police knew the crime scene wasn't her house, so therefore they decided there was no need to check her house...including her bedroom!!!!!  Every show I've ever seen about such disappearances, they ALWAYS check the house, and especially for minors they check the bedroom, for clues about where the person might have gone.  So who could possibly have expected that when the mom finally got up the courage to look in her daughter's bedroom, she found the girl's diary, which broke the case wide open.

There was also one weird thing about the show.  When the show was reading from her diary, it was mostly done in the young female voiceover that had been narrating from the perspective of the dead girl.  But then, it would alternate with the lead male detective on the case, and he was reading her words, which was very very disconcerting.  And then he would sometimes immediately go into his regular detective narration right after having been saying the girl's words from the diary, but the transition wasn't clear, which was very confusing.

The second episode was Vanished in Virginia, which was the Taylor Behl murder.  Different franchises stress different things when they do the same murder, and this one stressed a lot of what the VCU campus police did, or didn't do, and it was appalling.  The VCU police kept telling the mom that she was just a college student who went away for a few days.  Even after she was gone for 10 days, they STILL were planning to just shelve it until she showed back up (and then presumably work on the kidnapping, murder, or whatever AFTER the body or the live person shows back up?).  WTAF?  Fortunately, it eventually got assigned to the 'real' police detectives.  But IIRC, both the campus police and the detectives accepted Ben Fawley's 'alibi' that he was robbed, beaten up, and kidnapped by unknown people on the night of Taylor's murder, and they didn't look into him ANY further.  How on earth do you not think to yourself, "Wow, that is certainly a bizarre AF alibi.  How often does THAT happen?  Let's look at it, and him, more closely."  But nope, they were like, "I'm good.  No questions whatsoever about his story" and moved on to other suspects. But even if his story were true, they hadn't narrowed down the timeframe of her disappearance/murder yet, so he still could have done something to Taylor before or after his 'kidnapping'.  So no matter how you view it, it is NOT an alibi!  

[andromeda331]

So the recent Forensic Files II had an insurance agent found murdered in his office. Suspicion falls on his wife since he had three life insurance policies on him. They eventually find out the last person to meet with him in his office killed him and robbed him. The killer had was smug and didn't think he left any of his DNA behind. The weird part is the police and prosecutor were worried that the jury would believe the DNA could have been placed there at any time. Except the DNA they found was in the murder victim's pocket where his wallet was. Ah, what legitimate reason would the killer have for having DNA there? Cause what people tend to put their hands in their insurance agent's pocket? Sure that sounds normal.  What were they worried about? That's evidence every detective and prosecutor wishes they had. 

[Annber03]

20 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

Oh, as for podcasts, I highly recommend Truth & Justice with Bob Ruff (it's actually helped get appeals for wrongfully convicted people); season 5 of it is all about the West Memphis 3 and, man, is it thorough!

 

4 hours ago, CatMomma said:

Not a documentary, but there was a movie on HBO called "Indictment:The McMartin Trial" that I remember being really good. If you have Amazon Prime, I think you can watch it for free. 

Now I want to watch it again. It was made in 95, so might be a bit dated.

Thanks to both of you for mentioning these! I'll be on the lookout for them, then :). 

[Sile]

On 4/7/2020 at 5:32 PM, Annber03 said:

 

Thanks to both of you for mentioning these! I'll be on the lookout for them, then :). 

Oxygen had a documentary on the McMartin case last year that was pretty thorough (I think it was a multi-part).  Although I was somewhat familiar with the case, I learned a lot from it.  They even had footage of the excavation of the site looking for the tunnels that supposed to have been under the school.

https://www.oxygen.com/uncovered-the-mcmartin-family-trials/crime-time/mcmartin-preschool-shocking-allegations-abuse

[Toaster Strudel]

On 4/14/2017 at 10:44 AM, ButterQueen said:

The couple who disappeared for 10 years after losing their baby.  Their neighbors/friends kept up the lawn and collected their mail for the entire 10 years.  The couple returned and were bat shit crazy, and their house was in foreclosure.  They treated their former friends horribly, even though their friends had helped so much and even brought them groceries when they first came back.  I hated the woman who played the disappearing woman.  She made the ugliest faces when she spoke.  I loved the male neighbor who commented, he seemed so calm and rational.

They were filthy hoarders too, with excrement and urine all over the house... perplexing, how no one wanted to buy it, LOL!

[LuvMyShows]

Disappointed in the latest See No Evil.  It was just reviewing video tape from an evening at a bar.  I like it better when there is more sleuthing to do and they rely on cameras from different locations.

[badhaggis]

7 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

Disappointed in the latest See No Evil.  It was just reviewing video tape from an evening at a bar.  I like it better when there is more sleuthing to do and they rely on cameras from different locations.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that! The episode the week before was much better.

[SunnyBeBe]

I got frustrated with a recent rerun of Serial Killers with Piers Morgan, looking at Mark Reibe of Florida.  He's been convicted of one murder, along with his brother of a pregnant store clerk, from whom, they took nothing.  They found her murdered body, buried in the killer's family yard.  LATER Reibe confesses to many other murders.  He knows many details, but, they can't find enough other evidence to charge him.  THEN, he recants and says they were false confessions and that the detective fed him the details.  He CLAIMS he made the confessions to HELP HIS SON'S SITUATION.  My QUESTION, is why didn't Morgan ever explore that?  To me, that would be an obvious thing to look at.  Who is the son, how old was he, what was the situation that he was trying to get him out of? Did he get a plea deal for the son? Was the son a child?  Anyone know?  I wonder if I went to the bathroom and missed it.  It seems like a huge thing to ignore. Also, why not get footage from the interviews and see if there was any feeding of the information.  Hard me for to believe that they couldn't really figure out if this guy is BS or not. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5085615/Piers-Morgan-taunts-convicted-killer-Mark-Riebe.html

 

[SunnyBeBe]

Did anyone watch DNA of Murder with Paul Holes?  This was on Kathleen Heisey, an elementary school principal, who was brutally murdered in her home. It was very sexual in nature. So shocking, that Paul suspects another serial killer. He interviews an FBI profiler about it, and the profiler strongly thinks it is someone who knows the victim and has reason to know that she lives there alone and how to gain entry and escape from the house.  So, they examine two males well known to her, her married lover and a counselor at the school she works out who has a beef with her, because, she doesn't find him competent.  For various reasons, they sort of rule out the lover. Paul examines the school counselor, who is not able to speak any longer, (not sure why, either dementia or physical disability), but, they interview his wife and an attorney.  The suspect's wife gives some answers about how they were doing family things at the time of the murder and her husband couldn't have possibly done it.  Well, how the hell does he know that she's not lying and they were only 5-7 miles from the murder scene.  Her husband could have sneaked out during the night, through a window and gotten back without being detected.  I can't believe that he totally dropped that suspect on something so flimsy.  Then, he hopped back on the theory of the convicted sexual predator, serial killer who is already in prison on other cases. His reasons seemed unreliable and the only reason that he's really after the serial killer is that both killers left a foreign object inside the victim's body.  I think that he needs someone else working with him to play devil's advocate.  I think he gets too distracted without that. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by SunnyBeBe

[Razzberry]

11 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Did anyone watch DNA of Murder with Paul Holes? 

Yeah,  it seems Paul is finding serial killers all over the place and maybe getting carried away.  But I kind of agree with him that the object insertions in both crimes are really similar signatures.   I'll have to rewatch it, but I thought that guy's wife (who brought her attorney) said other people were sleeping in the living room and no way could he have gotten out without someone noticing?   Family alibis should be taken with a grain of salt though, I agree.

Disappointed that no updates from season 1 have been forthcoming yet.   I figure there's either a lot of red tape or his hunches haven't panned out and it would be embarrassing for the show.  lol

[SunnyBeBe]

11 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Yeah,  it seems Paul is finding serial killers all over the place and maybe getting carried away.  But I kind of agree with him that the object insertions in both crimes are really similar signatures.   I'll have to rewatch it, but I thought that guy's wife (who brought her attorney) said other people were sleeping in the living room and no way could he have gotten out without someone noticing?   Family alibis should be taken with a grain of salt though, I agree.

Disappointed that no updates from season 1 have been forthcoming yet.   I figure there's either a lot of red tape or his hunches haven't panned out and it would be embarrassing for the show.  lol

Yes, I get why he's considering the known serial killer, who has same MO on that one detail, but, the rest doesn't line up. 

 I still would think they would need more to rule out those close to the victim, as the profiler suggested.  When family members give alibis, it just doesn't mean much to me without more corroboration.  Even if guests are sleeping in living room on the floor, a sneaky killer can sneak out the back door or a window, then return without notice.

  My question is did victim really say that she was afraid this guy would return to her house and kill her.  If she really said that, then, I think that's substantial. 

I was suspect of the neighbor coming up with the story of the carpet cleaner guy coming to her door so many years after the murder.  WHY didn't see think of that right after the murders? I don't buy it now.  So, therefore, I don't buy the picture lineup pick of the known serial killer by another neighbor lady so many years after the fact.  But, I'm not big on the reliability of eye witness testimony.  It's just very unreliable, imo.     

[Razzberry]

The latest Reasonable Doubt was about a female ex-cop who killed her husband and buried him in a horse trough filled with cement.  Her mother and best friend were proclaiming her innocence, but were busted for withholding information that looked real bad for her, like buying a new shower curtain among other things on the day he disappeared. I thought the detectives were too nice about it, they deserved a reality check.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Razzberry

[LuvMyShows]

23 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

The latest Reasonable Doubt was about a female ex-cop who killed her husband and buried him in a horse trough filled with cement.  Her mother and best friend were proclaiming her innocence, but were busted for withholding information that looked real bad for her, like buying a new shower curtain among other things on the day he disappeared. I thought the detectives were too nice about it, they deserved a reality check.

Just watched this, and wow, that was serious evidence to withhold.  Tracy's story that the shower curtain, horse trough, and cement she bought THAT DAY were stolen and used to kill Doug is not credible.  She says the police are the ones who stole it, and killed Doug to frame her...but that means they would have had to have constant surveillance on her to know about the items she bought, then somehow manage to steal all those items, and then very quickly figure out how they were going to use them to suddenly kill Doug.

I disagree that they were too nice.  I thought they were doing their best to deliver a truth bomb in a way that had a chance of actually being heard.  

[Razzberry]

I think they were using the show to try and free a cold-blooded killer who probably planned the whole thing from her prison cell.  They always think they're smarter than everyone else, even after they've been caught.

[LuvMyShows]

Just watched the "If I Should Die" episode about The Lost Boys  What an awful, terrible, devastatingly sad story.  So glad the husband and wife (aunt and uncle) were both sentenced to die, but it sounds like they're not dead yet.

[Annber03]

Ugh, yes, that story was horrifying. The discovery of what had been done to the boy who'd gone missing...

And then right after that episode was a show called "Predator at Large" that featured the case of the kidnapping and murder of a five year old girl 😞. That one was infuriating, too. Some really hideous scumbags out there. 

[badhaggis]

Did anyone see "Raw Terror" last Sunday. I liked that the parents got to tell their own story. Apparently their daughter did not light up the room. The mother's voice in the teaser for this week is driving me up the wall.

[LuvMyShows]

On the 'DNA of Murder' episode called Friend or Foe, there was a murder where the guy came into the house, killed the female downstairs (Kathleen), then took her upstairs after she was dead and put her in the master bedroom on the bed.  He placed items in multiple of her orifices, and posed her in a provocative position that had one leg off the bed on a chair.  Then he pulled another chair up beside the bed as though to sit and admire his handiwork. 

In terms of suspects, they narrowed it down to two men who knew her.  There was also a convicted serial killer in the same town.  He had killed four prostitutes and a woman named Ruby.  So Paul (the host of the show) went to some kind of an expert about whether the similarities in Ruby's killing versus Kathleen's might be significant.  This 'expert' said she had seen too many murders derailed by focusing too much on similarities, and she thought that wasn't the way to go with this one. 

Here's what the similarities were: he killed Ruby downstairs, then took her upstairs after she was dead and put her in the master bedroom on the bed.  He placed items in multiple of her orifices, and posed her in a provocative position that had one leg off the bed on a chair.  Then he pulled another chair up beside the bed as though to sit and admire his handiwork. 

Now over the years of my watching these murder shows, I have by this point heard of well over 1,000 murders.  Take a guess how many featured killing someone in one part of the house and then putting them on the bed in the master bedroom and not having sex?  Possibly one but probably none.  How many featured posing them in a provocative position with one leg off on a chair?  Maybe possibly one, but very likely none.  How many had items placed in multiple orifices?  Maybe one or two.  How many had another chair pulled up to admire their handiwork?  None that I ever recall. 

So at most, about 5 other murders out of over 1,000 had even ONE of those unusual features  And NO OTHER MURDERS had ever had ALL of those features.  Yet here we have a murder that has ALL of the exact same unusual features, and just happens to have been committed by a man IN THAT VERY SAME TOWN.  Yet that is not even worthy of investigating further?  SMH 

Disclaimer:  Kathleen's murder hasn't been solved, so it could turn out that it really wasn't the serial killer, in which case I retract my disgust!  

 

[Court]

I binged the Innocence Files yesterday. It's just 9 episodes. I enjoyed it and I was left wondering how the hell the jury voted guilty in some of the cases. 

The one about the cross racial witnesses/suspects was fascinating. 

It also convinced me I will never ever talk to police without a lawyer. Not one word.

[Joetheman27]

On 9/11/2017 at 3:29 PM, Annber03 said:

Yeah, I remember seeing that story on "Forensic Files" years ago, too. I remember being in total awe of how they were able to figure out that he'd messed with the time stamps, and used the angles of the sun to prove that the time of day it actually was didn't match up with the time listed on the video. Still pretty impressive all this time later. 

I don't remember them ever giving a reason why he committed his initial attempted rape against her, either, no. Like you said, it does seem weird, considering she was in a totally different town. Maybe he encountered her somewhere along the way and became obsessed with her or something? I dunno.

I felt bad for the guy's wife. Wanting to believe the best of her husband only to have that belief so horribly dashed-that's heartbreaking. 

I heard the running time for the video was only 12 minutes long. I’m sure that tipped the investigators off from the start; you have a video of yourself fishing for the day yet its running time is only 12 minutes??? Has anyone ever seen the actual video he recorded? (Besides the bits they show on Forensic Files) 

[kathyk2]

I really liked Oxygen's documentaries about Sam Little and the Hollywood Ripper. I was so happy to see cases that haven't been done before. I wonder if the jurors who acquitted Sam Little felt guilty after learning he killed other people?