General True Crime Shows

[kathyk24]

Anyone watch Nancy Grace tonight? The case was about a soldier named Chad who went missing and was found murdered. His mom formed a huge search party to find him and she thought his wife was involved because she didn't look for him. The killer was his friend and his wife Amanda was innocent. I think people get too involved in how people behave and they don't pay attention to physical evidence. Amanda explained that she moved to away from public scrutiny.

[CountryGirl]

On 10/21/2020 at 8:28 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Jim really did go through a lot to fight his way back. He’s candid about his journey. After release from prison, he worked serving tables at a local restaurant in Raleigh, NC (42nd Street Oyster Bar).  He was awesome and so friendly to all those he served, especially attorneys. That’s where I met him. 
https://www.amazon.com/Flame-out-Prosecuting-Jeffrey-MacDonald-Serving/dp/0967737400

 

How cool that you got to meet him. Yes, he had some missteps after the MacDonald case, none of which detract from the absolutely correct verdict there as the physical evidence and Mac the Knife's own words damned him (to hell, hopefully). Unlike MtK, Blackburn owned up to what he did, served time, and got his life back together. It still astonishes me that the MacDonald trial was his first. It is also interesting that in his 1993 case. Wade Smith represented him.

I'm also listening to the Morally Indefensible podcast (can also be found on the FX site) - https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/a-wilderness-of-error/morally-indefensible-podcast).

[SunnyBeBe]

8 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

How cool that you got to meet him. Yes, he had some missteps after the MacDonald case, none of which detract from the absolutely correct verdict there as the physical evidence and Mac the Knife's own words damned him (to hell, hopefully). Unlike MtK, Blackburn owned up to what he did, served time, and got his life back together. It still astonishes me that the MacDonald trial was his first. It is also interesting that in his 1993 case. Wade Smith represented him.

I'm also listening to the Morally Indefensible podcast (can also be found on the FX site) - https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/a-wilderness-of-error/morally-indefensible-podcast).

I agree about Jim. I got to know Mr. Smith a little too, as well as his son, who’s also an attorney. He has a very reputable firm. 

[Annber03]

Okay, this "Twisted Sisters" episode is depressing as hell. I do remember hearing the basics of this story a few years back, but learning all the details here is just....wow. What a tragic story. On so many levels. 

(Also, there's a moment involving a dog that's really upsetting, so fair warning for anyone who's not seen this yet.)

[renatae]

Well, another aggravating show. An old "Home Alone" with the title "A Mother and a Maniac." Disgruntled abusive ex-partner decides to go to ex's mom's house with a gun to bully her into coming back to him. Police are called and they are on the scene, where he holds his ex hostage. At some point, he shoots and kills her mother and daughter in the yard and she can see them on the ground outside the window. He tells police he killed them because he hated them, as if they are just some annoying objects to be rid of.

The hostage situation goes on at gunpoint for several hours with the police outside. He constantly threatens her with the gun. Finally, he goes to make some food, and she sneaks out. About 10 minutes later, he decides to surrender. Trial time comes and he wants to plead not guilty. He says he will change his plea if they remove the death penalty, and the prosecution folds!

What the what? Why do they need a guilty plea to send this cowardly, whiny, bullying so-and-so murderer where he belongs? There were witnesses everywhere! 🤬

[Jeeves]

On 10/25/2020 at 7:34 PM, kathyk24 said:

Anyone watch Nancy Grace tonight? The case was about a soldier named Chad who went missing and was found murdered. His mom formed a huge search party to find him and she thought his wife was involved because she didn't look for him. The killer was his friend and his wife Amanda was innocent. I think people get too involved in how people behave and they don't pay attention to physical evidence. Amanda explained that she moved to away from public scrutiny.

Thanks for the summary - and you make a good point about how people can be under suspicion but not guilty at all. I doubt I'll be watching that show because TBH I just can't stand Nancy Grace. It's a deep seated loathing and although I may miss a good show, I'm pretty sure I'll pass on this series. 

[kathyk24]

4 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Thanks for the summary - and you make a good point about how people can be under suspicion but not guilty at all. I doubt I'll be watching that show because TBH I just can't stand Nancy Grace. It's a deep seated loathing and although I may miss a good show, I'm pretty sure I'll pass on this series. 

I don't like Nancy Grace either but the case kept me interested. I've lost count of all the people who were grief stricken when someone died only to learn they were the murderer.

[Sile]

On 10/27/2020 at 1:48 AM, Annber03 said:

Okay, this "Twisted Sisters" episode is depressing as hell. I do remember hearing the basics of this story a few years back, but learning all the details here is just....wow. What a tragic story. On so many levels. 

(Also, there's a moment involving a dog that's really upsetting, so fair warning for anyone who's not seen this yet.)

There's a book on this case called Lost Girls and a Netflix movie based on the book.  It's mostly about the Long Island Serial Killer, but I think this part is also included since the movie has the sisters in the cast.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Sile

[Annber03]

Thanks for the info! I'll have to check those out at some point. 

[Persnickety1]

Did anyone else catch "Dead Silent" and "The Creek Bottom" episode?

I think it was on a few days ago, but I didn't watch it until last night.

Absolutely harrowing, one of ID Discovery's better program episodes.

No spoilers, but that ending... ❤️❤️❤️ 

[Schnickelfritz]

7 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

Did anyone else catch "Dead Silent" and "The Creek Bottom" episode?

I had missed it but after your question, caught it on demand.

Has her (Tammy Crowe) case been done on other shows? I was familiar with the story. I thought this was especially well done. I liked that they had all of the principal participants (except for the very bad man). 

[Persnickety1]

16 hours ago, Schnickelfritz said:

I had missed it but after your question, caught it on demand.

Has her (Tammy Crowe) case been done on other shows? I was familiar with the story. I thought this was especially well done. I liked that they had all of the principal participants (except for the very bad man). 

I hadn't heard of the case before this program.  It usually takes me a few minutes to get into these programs, but this one grabbed me right away.  I think my jaw was dropped through most of it.  

It was exceptionally well done.  The reenactments were horrifying. 

I figured out towards the end why it was so well done, because they were able to have first-hand details instead of a lot of speculation about what "might" have happened.  

That woman's will to survive was incredible.  

And the way Legg's identity changed from "boyfriend" to "husband" at the end?  My little black heart skipped a beat or two and my eyes might have leaked.  Just a little bit. ❤️  

[auntjess]

I want to talk about ID's The Body on Bowden Road.
 

Spoiler

I can't understand why the bond was $100,000 cash, for kids joy riding and shooting off a gun.  Did she aim at someone?  Was anyone hit?
Did she had lots of prior offenses? 
There has to be a back story, surely.
And yes, it's dreadful that her mother hired a hit, but what aren't they telling?

 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I saw the Dateline rerun about the Darlene Foley killing in her home with a shotgun.    The husband, Tom Foley said the usual, we had a solid marriage, but that wasn't true.     The most damning evidence was his son saying he heard a big bang that day.  After time spent with his mother's relatives morphed into him claiming since he fired a shotgun at a church camp, he definitely heard a shotgun being fired, this was at the second trial where the son had been living with his mother's relatives, who were all convinced the husband was guilty.  .        The husband was convicted the first time, retried, and found not guilty the second time.    The worst thing is the son who testified against the father twice, went back to his custody.    I don't see how the relationship between father and son could ever be good again after that.    

It reminds me so much of the Mary Winkler case where the oldest daughter testified against her mother, and after the case was over, the daughter had to go live with the mother.     

Edited November 8, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[SunnyBeBe]

On 10/29/2020 at 9:53 PM, kathyk24 said:

I don't like Nancy Grace either but the case kept me interested. I've lost count of all the people who were grief stricken when someone died only to learn they were the murderer.

Nancy used to turn me off to at times, but, then, after she left the air, I realized that she was the only one getting the word out about missing women and children.  It's crazy.  She did do good by some of  them.  It's shame how many women and children disappear and get so little attention.  Just certain ones get a lot of media coverage. 

[CountryGirl]

I finished up the Morally Indefensible podcast. Similar to the A Wilderness of Error docuseries for which it's a companion series, the balance seems to shift more against Mac the Knife than pro-Mac.

It did also provide more insight on Janet Malcolm, who attempted to take a hatchet to Joe McGinnis' fine work with Fatal Vision. I find it rich and highly ironic that she did to Joe (following their interview, one he sought in search of clear support for his treatment of the case and its subject, MacDonald) exactly what she accused him of doing to the murderer. He smartly caught on right away that she was clearly not a friend and cut the interview after 5 hours - she just wanted a story. Go figure.

Again, this supposedly esteemed journalist, was so dense that she somehow joined the band of crazies who attempted (and still do) to crucify Joe, placing blame on him for Mac the Knife's conviction and yet again, a jury in 1979 did that (FV was published in 1983). She was given the opportunity to read through the transcripts and the evidence, but why bother with the facts when she could tell a sensational story?

For me, she lost any credibility she ever had with her characterization of MacDonald as as this benign figure, gushing about how because he ate powdered-sugar doughnuts so "delicately," that somehow implies innocence. She actually phrased it as '‘breaking off pieces and unaccountably keeping the powdered sugar under control, with the delicate dexterity of a veterinarian fixing a broken wing.”

Yet she refused to view a single crime scene photo or even read any of the transcripts about the other things the poor, poor maligned victim Mac the Knife had broken - like both of Colette's arms and her skull or Kimmy's skull and face. 

She's a damn kook as much, if not more than Errol Morris is, yet many take her work, The Journalist and the Murderer, as some sort of holy grail text for inspiring journalists. 

First, Joe never agreed it would be a pro-Mac book, much less exonerate him of the triple murder convictions. The  contract, signed by Mac, also gave Joe full access to Mac and the defense team throughout the trial. There was a clause added by Mac's attorney, that confirmed said access " provided that the essential integrity of my life story is maintained." And that became the sticking point in the civil suit, which by the way, Joe did NOT lose. The first suit ended in a mistrial and before the second trial could commence, Joe, having had enough of this, chose to settle and Freddy ensured Mac didn't profit from that just as he ensured he didn't profit from Fatal Vision. But going back to the clause...what integrity are we talking about? First, IMO, a man who kills his pregnant wife and two young daughters has zero integrity. Those are the facts and that IS a huge part of his life story. So I guess you could argue that Joe DID maintain the integrity of Mac's life story by telling the truth. Additionally, Mac not only lied about killing his family (and continues to lie to this very day), but he also lied about having affairs (although I'm sure Colette suspected). He lied to Colette about an upcoming boxing trip to Russia (it was a ruse so he could get away for a few months - and right around the time Colette was supposed to give birth to their third child - the boy he had always wanted - so he could try to get together with an ex). He also lied and said Colette was happy about it - she expressed to many that she was not, again, because it was so close in time to her giving birth and she had had such difficulties with Kimmy and Kristy's births. He lied to Joe himself in the letters and tapes about events that never happened, like talking about him having sex with Colette behind a baseball field and being adamant that the weekend in which it happened was this specific time - only it wasn't during baseball season at that time. Or his having sex with Colette at her parent's apartment on another weekend and they weren't even living there at the time. His lying about killing one of the intruders to Freddy (who taped the conversation as he almost always did). So again, what integrity was there to preserve?

Also integrity has this definition: "the quality of being whole and complete." I would argue that Joe did preserve the whole and complete picture of what a fucking monster Mac the Knife is. 

It makes me upset to know that Joe, who sadly passed away from cancer was made out to be the villain here when all he did was tell the truth. Yes, he went after it by any means necessary but with Mac fooling so many with his seemingly nice guy persona, even Joe for a while (even after the convictions and he struggled with still liking Mac on some level because of their "friendship"),  you have to wonder who was conning who? I also have to wonder about him being another victim of Mac with the toll it took on his mental and physical health to deal with him and his machinations.

Again, I stand by my opinion that Joe did nothing wrong and everything right and in the name of some justice for the real victims in this case - Colette, Kimmy, and Kristy, but also Freddy, Mildred, and Colette's brother, Bob. 

[Annber03]

Another sad "Twisted Sisters" story tonight. Brittany's story...my god, that poor, poor girl... Her thing about sitting at the end of the driveway waiting for her dad :(. 

Not hard to see why she's not referring to her mom by anything other than her actual name. What a mess of a family. 

[Jeeves]

I just tuned into the Oxygen channel for some background noise while I'm on the computer. And I got so disgusted. They are repeating an old episode of Snapped, about Courtenay Savage (S8:E21). She shot up a former business partner's home and when caught for it and charged with attempted murder, went on the run. Even got plastic surgery. I tuned in just in time to hear her and her mother talking about her year as a fugitive. I just CAN'T with either of those bitches. They were just all into poor Courtenay and I had to help my daughter and it wasn't like she'd killed anybody. And oh poor thing, you can't IMAGINE the stress she lived under while a fugitive.

OH, PLEASE. Give it up. The woman pulled up to her former business partner's house and FIRED BULLETS INTO IT. One went into a bedroom where an infant was sleeping. And when America's Most Wanted featured her case? Her mom is all oh please, calling my daughter armed and dangerous, like it was so utterly silly. I swear I probably strained something with the eyerolls at that one. And yeah, AMW's coverage led to Courtenay's capture, and to hear her talk about being face down on the pavement while she was cuffed, you'd think it was some kind of outrageous mistreatment. 

What a phoney bully. Still claiming that the former business partner is at fault because "she totally backstabbed me." Well, no, she didn't do any physical harm to poor little Courtenay. Who of course because of that, had to go shoot up the other woman's home under cover of darkness??? Rot in hell, Courtenay, and take your enabling mom with you to hold your hand.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Jeeves

[CrazyInAlabama]

I can't wait for the search for the Lyon sisters' remains show on ID on 28 November.   I lived in Northern Virginia when they disappeared, and it was so horrible.     I can't imagine waiting all of these years to find out who killed them, and where they're probably buried.   The man who is the convicted killer wasn't charged, and tried until 2017.      The documentary is based on Mark Bowden's (Black Hawk Down) reporting.  

[Jeeves]

Well, okay. I did something unusual and against my better judgment: I watched Injustice with Nancy Grace last night. Because I'd heard that Glenn Kirschner had a talking head role in the show, and the subject of the episode was a case I'd never heard of. The episode, "The Mansion Murders," told of the horrible murders of the Savopolous family (husband, wife, and young son) and their housekeeper, Vera Figueroa, in their (really) mansion in an exclusive Washington DC neighborhood. A very safe part of town; we were told at least twice it was only two blocks from the Vice President's home. 

And, yes, it was a case I frankly now wish I hadn't heard of. Those people were hurt and tortured before they were killed, and then they were doused with gasoline and the house was set on fire. Fortunately, DNA found on a pizza crust in the house (the house was damaged by fire but not destroyed) led to the identification, arrest, and conviction of the perp. It's reasonably suspected by some, that he may not have acted alone. The crime involved four people being held hostage for many hours in the house while nobody outside the home knew that was happening; that's a lot for one perp to handle. But AFAIK no other suspects have been identified. 

It was a hostage-for-money crime, over the top in brutality, a real slaughter. The THs who narrated the story spoke calmly but sincerely; besides Kirschner, there was a DC police officer, a journalist, a neighbor, and a woman who worked for the family but who wasn't there when the crime began and was called by Mrs. Savopolous and told not to come to work that day. It was clear that each of them understood the tragedy, and was sickened by the brutality, but they were restrained and appropriate in their affect. 

But then - there was good old Nancy Grace, popping in with her over the top "Look at MEEE" dramatics and outrage. Chewing the scenery and raising her voice. Giving us a little act complete with choking up and tearing up when she mentioned the child who was killed. "I'M a mother and OMG just thinking about MY. KIDS" in this connection. Yes, the perp had a history of violent crime and it looks like he skated in earlier cases with (I can't remember the deets) either no prison time or not much of it in relation to his bad acts. In a really just world he wouldn't have been on the streets. Also, yes, this was a nasty horrible brutal calculating crime. The guy tortured, battered, and killed by fire four people, for a take of $40K. 

IMO Nancy Grace's on-air dramatics were uncalled for, and maybe she was having an off day when they filmed it, but her acting wasn't even all that good. IMO, far from honoring the victims of this crime, she was essentially emoting all over their graves for her own glory. "Look at MEEE! I'm so OUTRAGED! Listen to ME talk about that BAD GUY and how UNJUST this was!"

Look, you egotistical twit, we don't need you to overact - and badly - all over our teevees for us know this was a bad thing that happened. 

BTW I was never a fan of NG, who seemed back in her heyday to keep getting ever more over-the-top as time went by, with the flaring nostrils, accusatory rants, and fixation on crimes against young white females. (The victim or missing female had to be white to get her interested; fageddaboutit if a child of color went missing, is how I remember NG in her prime.) TBH I kind of remembered that she was on Fox, but actually she was on CNN.  I believe she has presented some "alternate facts," or spin, if you will, about her pre-TV background and the murder of her "fiance," ever since I read this article: https://observer.com/2006/03/did-nancy-grace-tv-crimebuster-muddy-her-myth/

I didn't watch the last ten or so minutes of the show; I flipped it off in the middle of one of NG's tirades against the defense attorneys at the perp's trial.

It would have been a well-produced show about a terrible crime, without the insertions of Nancy Grace into the proceedings. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jeeves
words, clarity, and such things

[smittykins]

I remember watching that on Dateline/48 Hours/20/20(the shows kinda blend together after awhile).

[chick binewski]

Yikes. ID is airing the "Love at First Text" episode of Web Of Lies again.

When I originally saw this episode I remember immediately searching online for verification that the story was real. I know the ep has been discussed here before but just in case...

Spoiler

A 22 y/o single mother of 3 chats with a guy online, takes her infant with her when the guy's "cousin" (also a stranger) picks her up to meet the guy, lets the cousin leave with the infant while she waits alone in a laser tag parking lot and the guy stands her up bc he "got arrested for speeding". After sleeping in a car all night she finally calls the police but hangs up when cousin calls her after not returning texts or calls for 12 hours. Gets the infant, goes home. CONTINUES TO CHAT ONLINE WITH DUDE SHE STILL HASN'T MET WHO STOOD HER UP until Cousin texts her to tell her guy was in an accident and might die from nosebleeds. Single mom now TAKES ALL THREE CHILDREN to meet almost-dead guy with a DIFFERENT STRANGE COUSIN. Shockingly, it does not go well.

**Kids ended up being ok but FFS she named one of them Renesmee.

This story puts me in such a state of WTF. Partly because there's not a lot of information on what happened post-arrest but mostly bc the show doesn't address the circumstances of our unreliable narrator, which are either a) a disorder / some degree of mental illness or b) an omission of a large portion of this story. 

And I can't with Lekiesha's mom. I mean, she did kind of try to stop the daughter twice but was all 'eh, she won't forgive me if I stop her pursuit of tru love' AND she also never called the police.

[Annber03]

Oh, god, that story. Yeah, I remember my mom and I were yelling at the TV when watching that episode. That story was nuts. 

I remember we also kept wondering what exactly their plans were for those kids at some point, 'cause the few times she brought them, the kids were never hurt-someone was always taking care of them. Were they going to kidnap them or something? Whatever they might've tried to do, though, yes, thank goodness they never wound up acting on it. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Annber03

[chick binewski]

4 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Oh, god, that story. Yeah, I remember my mom and I were yelling at the TV when watching that episode. That story was nuts. 

I remember we also kept wondering what exactly their plans were for those kids at some point, 'cause the few times she brought them, the kids were never hurt-someone was always taking care of them. Were they going to kidnap them or something? Whatever they might've tried to do, though, yes, thank goodness they never wound up acting on it. 

The police theorized the woman who kept taking the children had lost a child of her own, but there's almost no information on this case. And yes, it's odd in this kind of story that each time she took a child she either came back with them or called the police herself.  I forgot she actually hired second fake cousin from the internet and handed the two older kids off to him. Lekeisha is incredibly lucky that her catfisher wasn't violent and her hired hand ended up being freaked out enough to call the police.

[LuvMyShows]

ID's new show Killer in Question is very interesting.  It's re-visiting some convictions, and goes more in-depth than usual ID shows since it's longer than one hour (at least the first two episodes have been).  The first episode was disturbing in that the cops very quickly chose who they thought committed the crime, and set about to find evidence that supported their view, rather than trying to gather all the evidence.  They asked the supposed perp to pose for a picture, where he is pointing at the gun that he claimed to have found in the woods (it was the murder weapon), and they said the picture was very "incriminating" because he looks really crazy in the picture.  Uh, he looked like a guy sort of awkwardly posing for a picture and pointing at the ground.  Everything this guy did was filtered through the lens of 'guilty' by the cops.  I'm still not sure if he did it.  In the second episode, I didn't want to think it was the suspected guy, but when you look at all the evidence, and considering that last bit that flipped the opinion of the private eye who had been working on the case, I think it probably was him.

Also, if any of you with Android phones had been frustrated trying to watch TV One's Fatal Attraction episodes ever since it went to app only, it looks like they have fixed the problem, and you can now see them.  Plus there was a placeholder for a season 3 of TV One's ATL Homicide, so maybe that means it's coming back!

[SnarkEnthusiast]

Last night’s Twisted Sisters was hard to watch as a disabled person. I feel bad that the older sister got stuck with taking care of the younger sister and I know that they were very poor, but you’d think she’d ask one of her other siblings for help. I am also confused how they blew through $350,000 in three years and why the younger sister had direct access to it instead of it being in some sort of trust fund (which is common for estate donations to disabled people), especially when the younger sister proved that she couldn’t be trusted to save money. It sounds like the older sister was walked all over by the entire family and she seems to have some mental issues herself, but it pisses me off when people frame stories like these as “the burden of the disabled family member was too much and they just snapped, who could blame them?” because that logic quickly justifies murdering disabled people basically for being disabled, no matter the context. I understand it’s difficult, but at a certain point it’s on the able-bodied family members to make and live with their own decisions. No one was stopping the older sister from dating or having friends. Yes Debbie (the younger one, I forget the older one's name) was demanding, but even she found a boyfriend online! I am suspicious when caregivers lean on the martyr card. Although the older sister seems like a mild mannered, sweet person or seemed to go out of her way to present herself that way, I think her alcoholism made her a different person behind closed doors. And the fact that she initially claimed to not have any family members shows she’s much more calculating then her affected bewildered granny act would have you (or the police) believe. Don’t get me wrong, she got a shitty deal that quickly spiraled into a Gray Gardens situation, but she had options. Hell, she was literally handed a way out and $350,000 worth of options but then she shrugged and let Debbie blow it all on Star Wars shit. 

[One Tough Cookie]

Heads up people, Snapped is doing an hour on our favorite felon, Pam Hupp.  I''m recording it, but maybe you more savvy of you care to stream   ,if you can

[LuvMyShows]

Watched a recent episode of Oxygen's The Real Murders of Orange County.  It was about an adult blue-collar son with white-collar, educated parents and brother, who he resented and felt they looked down on him.  He ended up killing all three of them because he wanted the money that he would inherit (his girlfriend had been on Baywatch, and he had paid for her implants and other expenses, and so he wanted to have the money it would undoubtedly cost to keep her as his girlfriend).  His grandfather also lived with them, but he spared his grandfather's life because he had a good relationship with him.  He was convicted and went to jail.  Then from jail he tried to pay a terminally-ill hitman to kill his grandfather...the hit man, who was going to die soon anyway, would confess that he had actually been the one to kill the other 3 family members, so then the grandson would be released.  Devious, evil MFer.  (No surprise, the supposed hit man was actually an undercover cop.)

[Annber03]

I saw that episode, too. What a disturbing story. The neighbor hearing the screams, not realizing until later those screams were coming from the brother in the trunk, and then his parents' bodies dumped in the backseat...and without any clothes on. They never really explained why he left them naked, if I can recall, which makes that part of the story all the creepier. 

[LuvMyShows]

I watched ID's Killer in Question episode The Man With the Rabbit's Foot.  The first two episodes had been very compelling, with my opinion going back and forth. But this one was such a giant nothingburger.  I kept waiting and waiting and waiting for the compelling evidence implicating the sheriff's son or compelling evidence of a cover-up of the sheriff's son, but there was none, zero.  The whole episode was people who had seen his resemblance to the composite sketch, and insisted therefore that there was a cover-up because he was the sheriff's son.  Big disappointment, especially since these are extra-long episodes!    

[auntjess]

Do you ever see one, and agree with the killer that the victim "needed killin' ?"
 

Spoiler

This was my reaction to ID's From In-Law to Outlaw."  Go granny!

 

 

[smittykins]

My vote would be Ken McElroy.  I’m surprised(and, frankly, impressed)that the town never gave up his killer.

[CrazyInAlabama]

The list of Ken McElroy's crimes against people in that town is horrible.     I'm not surprised no one admitted who did it.    The Rolling Stone article about him right after he was killed was appalling.   He scared everyone who dared to agree to testify against him.   

I saw one of the Holiday crime series, about the Jupiter Florida Thanksgiving murders of Paul Merhige killing his aunt, twin sisters, and going into the six year old girl's room and killing her too, plus wounding other relatives.      The little girl's parents sued the killer's parents, because they were absolutely aware of his hate for the family.    

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/parents-of-makayla-sitton-to-sue-thanksgiving-killer-paul-merhige-parents/2055945/   This suit was eventually dismissed, because the court said that the parents couldn't control the actions of their adult son.   

Another person who was sued was the murderer's uncle (I think uncle), because he was actively treating the murderer, and had to know that he threatened his sisters, and family over the years, and wasn't kidding.  However, they didn't warn anyone that he was going to crash the Thanksgiving meal, and ignored the utter hatred he had for his sisters, and the rest of his family.   The parents knew that the murderer was coming to the family dinner, and that his hatred against everyone was strong.      At least the therapist should have notified whoever controls the gun sales restrictions, but he didn't.    I think the therapist should have lost his license to practice, and should have been liable.    Paul Merhige hated his sisters his whole life, because they were very accomplished, and he wasn't.     

The plea bargain that spared him the death penalty was over the objections of the little girl's parents.  

https://gizmodo.com/a-thanksgiving-tragedy-and-its-messy-aftermath-ripped-t-1744717642

One theory was that he was enraged that the six year old was singing before dinner, and everyone else was thrilled, and he killed her because he was jealous.      While he was on the run after the murders, and before he was caught because someone saw his photo on the commercial for America's Most Wanted, the little girl's parents, and other family members had to have around the clock police guards, because he also bought a sniper rifle.   

Edited November 29, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Annber03]

Ugh, yeah, I saw that one, too. Such a horrible story. Pointing a gun at a little girl...I just... And then the poor parents who had to sit there and watch as the massacre unfolded. 

He should've never been allowed to get anywhere near a gun. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

http://gm5-lkweb.newscyclecloud.com/news/merhige-parents-fire-back-their-accusers-with-their-own-lawsuit/E4wbwwVrIVpoZgttsnWUzH/

The countersuit filed by the murderer's parents against the parents of the girl their son murdered.     They're actually blaming the SIttons (the girl's parents, and host of the Thanksgiving gathering.     So they were supposed to stop a homicidal maniac, with a long history of care his parents paid for (that's how people stay off of gun restrictions, and don't have a history through health insurance of mental illness), from crashing their TG party?      They didn't even really know about him.   The murderer's parents also attended and said nothing. 

All the the law suits against the murderer's parents were dismissed.   However, my opinion is that the parents are blaming the people who hadn't seen their son in many years, and really didn't know him.    I'm hoping the Merhige suit was dismissed also, but I couldn't confirm it.   

[Persnickety1]

On 11/10/2020 at 12:26 PM, CrazyInAlabama said:

I can't wait for the search for the Lyon sisters' remains show on ID on 28 November.   I lived in Northern Virginia when they disappeared, and it was so horrible.     I can't imagine waiting all of these years to find out who killed them, and where they're probably buried.   The man who is the convicted killer wasn't charged, and tried until 2017.      The documentary is based on Mark Bowden's (Black Hawk Down) reporting.  

I watched this last.  What a 40-year clusterfuck that was.  I was rather shocked and thought I had missed "episode 1" as my cable guide showed this as "episode 2," and there was barely any background information leading into the suspect's interrogation.  I even checked out the ID Discovery app to see if "episode 1" was on there, and what the app called "episode 1" was precisely the same 2-hour program that my cable aired as "episode 2."  Not only was the case a clusterfuck, ID Discovery was making it even more of a clusterfuck for my stroke-addled brain.  

On 11/10/2020 at 12:26 PM, CrazyInAlabama said:

I can't wait for the search for the Lyon sisters' remains show on ID on 28 November.   I lived in Northern Virginia when they disappeared, and it was so horrible.     I can't imagine waiting all of these years to find out who killed them, and where they're probably buried.   The man who is the convicted killer wasn't charged, and tried until 2017.      The documentary is based on Mark Bowden's (Black Hawk Down) reporting.  

I accidentally quoted you twice, but also once I was able to disregard the jarring lack of the usual background information, I found it fascinating.  Those poor little girls.  

On 11/24/2020 at 1:40 PM, LuvMyShows said:

Watched a recent episode of Oxygen's The Real Murders of Orange County.  It was about an adult blue-collar son with white-collar, educated parents and brother, who he resented and felt they looked down on him.  He ended up killing all three of them because he wanted the money that he would inherit (his girlfriend had been on Baywatch, and he had paid for her implants and other expenses, and so he wanted to have the money it would undoubtedly cost to keep her as his girlfriend).  His grandfather also lived with them, but he spared his grandfather's life because he had a good relationship with him.  He was convicted and went to jail.  Then from jail he tried to pay a terminally-ill hitman to kill his grandfather...the hit man, who was going to die soon anyway, would confess that he had actually been the one to kill the other 3 family members, so then the grandson would be released.  Devious, evil MFer.  (No surprise, the supposed hit man was actually an undercover cop.)

I've watched all of the episodes of RMoOC and I thought this brother was a real piece of work, trying to blame his poor decrepit grandfather for the murders, and even worse trying to arrange a hit on him.  

On 11/27/2020 at 6:31 AM, LuvMyShows said:

I watched ID's Killer in Question episode The Man With the Rabbit's Foot.  The first two episodes had been very compelling, with my opinion going back and forth. But this one was such a giant nothingburger.  I kept waiting and waiting and waiting for the compelling evidence implicating the sheriff's son or compelling evidence of a cover-up of the sheriff's son, but there was none, zero.  The whole episode was people who had seen his resemblance to the composite sketch, and insisted therefore that there was a cover-up because he was the sheriff's son.  Big disappointment, especially since these are extra-long episodes!    

I agree!  I was waiting and waiting for a "big reveal" that the sheriff's son had been involved, but nope, nada, nil.  

--------------

Did anyone watch ID Discovery's program about Jessica Chambers murder?  

I'm still face palming that the first jury had no fucking clue what "unanimous" meant.  TWICE.  

The program was extremely interesting.  What a horrible way to die.  

[CrazyInAlabama]

Spoiler

 

If anyone wants the background on the Lyon sisters' case.   One afternoon the 10 and 12 year old sisters walked up to the mall, half a mile away, in broad daylight.    Several people saw them walking to the mall, in the food court (that was a neighbor child who knew them), their older brother saw them at the food court too.     They were supposed to be back home by a certain time, and never came back. and finally the police were called.     It turns out the police had a strong suspect, so disregarded another witness from the mall that said a young man was talking with the sisters, and was hanging around the mall.   The person who identified the initial suspect was the actual killer, and it was a diversionary tactic.       

It turns out the younger man was the person who kidnapped and killed them, he was already in prison.    Their final resting place is a remote area of Virginia,  and their bodies were burned, and no one knows what happened to the remains.    I went to college near there, and in that part of the world, no one talks to outsiders, and still don't want to.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Katherine_and_Sheila_Lyon

 

I put a spoiler tag on the Lyon sister background, in case anyone wants to watch the documentary.   

I lived in the area when this happened, and I know it sounds bizarre to let a 10 and 12 year old walk alone to a mall, it happened a lot back then.        I just hate that the police let the killer go then, and it was many years before he was convicted.  

Edited November 30, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[LuvMyShows]

Watched Dateline Secrets Uncovered "Deception".  The only evidence against Denis was his confession in a Canadian "Mister Big" undercover sting (and Denis' subsequent confession to the police).  They played the tape of the Mister Big confession, dubbed over in a translation that was apparently faithful down to the "um"s and interruptions.  If the confession is even close to accurate, I definitely think Denis was winging it in the confession just so that he could get Mr. Big to follow through on his promise to make the case against him go away.  I don't see who else could have done it, but I am not convinced there was enough evidence to convict.  

[LuvMyShows]

Many times I have heard different detectives on these true crime shows say, regarding when they catch a suspected perp in a lie, that "A lie is as good as a confession."  I don't see how they can possibly think that.  All it takes to deflect a lie is to say things like, "I was scared that my wife would find out" (if someone lied about having an affair) or "I knew my family would be disappointed in me" (if someone lied about forging a signature) or "I was embarrassed" (if they lied about their alibi and were really somewhere else).  If the detective doesn't know how the crime was committed, but has a pretty good idea who the perp is, he will not get the DA to go forward just because the perp was caught in some lie!  

 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, LuvMyShows said:

Many times I have heard different detectives on these true crime shows say, regarding when they catch a suspected perp in a lie, that "A lie is as good as a confession."  I don't see how they can possibly think that.  All it takes to deflect a lie is to say things like, "I was scared that my wife would find out" (if someone lied about having an affair) or "I knew my family would be disappointed in me" (if someone lied about forging a signature) or "I was embarrassed" (if they lied about their alibi and were really somewhere else).  If the detective doesn't know how the crime was committed, but has a pretty good idea who the perp is, he will not get the DA to go forward just because the perp was caught in some lie!  

 

I agree. Sure it'll make detectives suspicious but that doesn't seem they committed the crime. There are other reasons why someone might lie like some you pointed out. Very few will admit to any of it unless pressed by detectives even then they still have to verify. Even if the person who lied did do it they'd still need more DNA, cellphone records, pinging cellphones, witnesses, cameras, etc. Lying isn't enough. 

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Many times I have heard different detectives on these true crime shows say, regarding when they catch a suspected perp in a lie, that "A lie is as good as a confession."  I don't see how they can possibly think that. 

There's also the fact that law enforcement in general tend to make some people very uncomfortable, and that attitude is a large part of the reason why. If investigators give off a vibe that they're not going to be completely upfront in how they deal with a suspect, it's no surprise that some suspects will respond similarly in turn, and will be more likely to say whatever they think will get them off their back. You can't expect and demand trust and honesty from others if you're not willing to give it yourself. 

So yeah, investigators are basically shooting themselves in the foot if they adhere to that mindset. 

[auntjess]

I didn't watch the Lyon sisters show, but remember the crime well, from living in the area.
The thing that always stuck with is their father, John Lyon (a local radio personality), being interviewed a few years later on how they were holding up, and saying one of hardest things was meeting new people in a casual gathering, and being asked "how many children do you have," and never being sure of the answer.

 

[nokat]

I don't know if any of you watched the 20/20 two hour episode with the woman who stalked her ex-boyfriend by pretending to be someone she had already killed. That woman was a scary psychopath. I really liked how they lauded the detectives that were smart enough to take her down. That no one suspected her (other than the murder victim's family) tells you how psychopaths can fake being normal.

At the end, the stalked guy says he was naive, and then that he no longer trusts anyone. That's the long term damage.

Edited December 7, 2020 by nokat

[LuvMyShows]

OMG the reveal at the end of Oxygen's Buried in the Backyard episode "In the Dark of Night".  They were building up the case that the woman's ex-husband killed her, and he seemed like every other perp who had wanted custody and went too far with his anger and killed her, even going so far as to burn the body to cover up the evidence.  But at the end, it was revealed by the now-adult child that when they were kids, the dad had given them some bones to play with that he told them were racoon bones, but they were really the bones of the kids' dead mother!!!!! 

[nokat]

44 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

OMG the reveal at the end of Oxygen's Buried in the Backyard episode "In the Dark of Night".  They were building up the case that the woman's ex-husband killed her, and he seemed like every other perp who had wanted custody and went too far with his anger and killed her, even going so far as to burn the body to cover up the evidence.  But at the end, it was revealed by the now-adult child that when they were kids, the dad had given them some bones to play with that he told them were racoon bones, but they were really the bones of the kids' dead mother!!!!! 

I kind of closed my eyes because I haven't seen it yet.

[Vivigirl10]

Did anyone catch, "The Case Died With Her"?  I think it was on Oxygen.  Emilie Morris had brought accusations of molestation against her High School track coach, Jim Wilder.  But before the case went to trial, she was found dead in her apartment.  OMG - there was no satisfactory conclusion to either her death or in any punishment against the coach.  It was heartbreaking.  

I'd be interested to hear of others opinons on if her death was accidental or murder.  

It's obvious that the coach was a serial offender and it makes my blood boil to think he's still walking around as a free man.  

I think the High School totally enabled the abuse to be ongoing by failing to do an unbiased, thorough investigation and to report the claims of abuse.  They even let coach Wilder resign instead of firing him and taking away his teaching certificate.  Despite what you think of when you hear St. Louis, West County is a very moneyed area with an excellent public school system.  They wanted to sweep all this quietly under the rug so as not to tarnish the school's stellar image.  

I live extremely close to the apartment complex where she died.  We use it as a cut through to a busy street.  It's so strange to see something so familiar on your t.v. screen and now I'll always think of her when I drive through there.    

[CrazyInAlabama]

The ignoring abuse by a coach or teacher is nothing new.   In fact, my teacher acquaintances call it "Passing the Trash", where if someone agrees to leave voluntarily, they give them a decent recommendation, and don't warn the other school district.   

The worst case I've personally heard about (from living in the area) is a high school teacher and coach that was having a relationship with a 15 year old, with all kinds of texts, and other messages that said they were having a relationship.     It turns out he was still married to the current wife, who was about 16 when she got pregnant, and they married with her parents consent.      This time the relationship became so public that the superintendent, and school board fired the teacher, and his brother who also was a teacher at the school left also, he knew everything about what was going on, and did nothing. 

ID on 20 December is having a special Doomsday: the Missing Children about the Vallow case. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, Kiki620 said:

I'd be interested to hear of others opinons on if her death was accidental or murder.  

It's obvious that the coach was a serial offender and it makes my blood boil to think he's still walking around as a free man.  

Those secret recordings of the coach were incredibly damning, holy shit. Especially the way he kept making a point of going on about how stuff that wouldn't have been frowned upon elsewhere was considered a big deal here. And his reaction to having to watch the sexual harassment videos that they show at the school at the beginning of each year as well...wow. Wow. He is creepy as hell. And he's complaining about how his pregnant wife wasn't giving him enough attention, and that's what led him to look elsewhere (at least, that's his excuse. There's also the fact that he's just, y'know, a creep). I feel bad for his wife and kid. 

I'm torn on the accident/murder debate. It's entirely plausible, of course, that Emilie's stress over her painful memories, combined with some of the messiness of her life since then, could've driven her to actions that led to an accidental death. Especially as she started hearing talk from another girl about the abuse-it would've obviously triggered her trauma, and would've been yet another reminder that this skeezeball is still out there. But the fact there are some odd details about her death, and the fact that the toxicology reports don't seem to indicate she had high levesl of anything in her system, is indeed very suspicious. I can also see someone trying to silence her if they felt she was getting too close to blowing the lid off this case. So yeah. I dunno. 

Quote

I think the High School totally enabled the abuse to be ongoing by failing to do an unbiased, thorough investigation and to report the claims of abuse.  They even let coach Wilder resign instead of firing him and taking away his teaching certificate.  Despite what you think of when you hear St. Louis, West County is a very moneyed area with an excellent public school system.  They wanted to sweep all this quietly under the rug so as not to tarnish the school's stellar image.  

That bit about the area having a lot of money doesn't surprise me. It will forever amaze me how the biggest reason, in cases of widespread abuse, why people sweep this stuff under the rug is so they can "protect their reputation". Because the revelation that they covered up abuse for so long apparently won't hurt their reputation, I guess? Have they not seen the other stories about institutions that have covered up abuse for so long? Do they seriously believe the truth will never come out? Why is reputation so much more important than helping to stop people's suffering? I don't get it. 

Emilie may not be able to continue the fight, but given there are other victims starting to come forward and speak up, and given the recordings, and the fact there were some witnesses to some of these incidents, I'd like to think they can still do something with that evidence, and can keep this case afloat. I hope they are able to finally get some kind of justice, and that coach will finally pay the way he should. 

[Vivigirl10]

2 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

In fact, my teacher acquaintances call it "Passing the Trash", where if someone agrees to leave voluntarily, they give them a decent recommendation, and don't warn the other school district. 

It's just as scary that they do the same thing with doctor's in the hospital system.

18 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I'm torn on the accident/murder debate. It's entirely plausible, of course, that Emilie's stress over her painful memories, combined with some of the messiness of her life since then, could've driven her to actions that led to an accidental death. Especially as she started hearing talk from another girl about the abuse-it would've obviously triggered her trauma, and would've been yet another reminder that this skeezeball is still out there. But the fact there are some odd details about her death, and the fact that the toxicology reports don't seem to indicate she had high levesl of anything in her system, is indeed very suspicious. I can also see someone trying to silence her if they felt she was getting too close to blowing the lid off this case. So yeah. I dunno. 

I'm torn too.  I could accept that she could have suffocated in the garbage can.  But the lack of alcohol in her system would seem to dispute an accidental death if she wasn't in the condition to have passed out.  It seems awfully coincidental that Coach Wilder had a reason to want her dead and then she had that creepy cop bothering her as well.  As most apartment complexes are, this is a heavily populated area with multiple units in one building.  Can't believe someone didn't hear or see something.  But it seems the investigation was completely lacking or didn't happen at all.  

 

[nokat]

1 hour ago, Kiki620 said:

It's just as scary that they do the same thing with doctor's in the hospital system.

Yes, it's way too common. We don't want to make waves, so we'll just make him/her someone else's problem. I think it might be improving, as in that there are better reporting systems in place. I'm not confident in that.