General True Crime Shows

[Brattinella]

Okay, this Web Of Lies ad is every single commercial break!  Sunflower82 indeed!  Just run the damn EPISODE already, okay!?

[hoosiermom]

For all you true crime junkies who also like pod casts, Sword and Scale is a must listen! Most cases I had not heard of before. On topic, the last episode of Web of Lies was just heartbreaking. I hope those boys get a huge dose of Karma or burn in hell when they die. Those parents were amazing.

[Annber03]

30 minutes ago, hoosiermom said:

On topic, the last episode of Web of Lies was just heartbreaking. I hope those boys get a huge dose of Karma or burn in hell when they die. Those parents were amazing.

God, that was one of those stories that just sends your stomach sinking, 'cause you know exactly where it's going to go in regards to that poor girl. I just cannot fathom how the hell people think that kind of behavior is even remotely acceptable. 

Gotta love, too, of course, that the girl was harassed and mocked by her classmates for a photo that she didn't consent to. Let me see if I can guess how much harassment the boys who actually set up, took, and shared the photo received. 

Just. Ugh. My heart went out to her parents. I'm glad that they fought back, and I'm glad they got a lot of support, too. 

[Tabbygirl521]

On 7/23/2019 at 7:32 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Okay....tonight on Web of Lies....this mother, who got catfished....ALMOST had her child kidnapped TWICE!!!! By the same woman! All because she was Sooo horny for a man...who didn't even exist. AND she wouldn't report it to the police! Too scared to get her fictional boyfriend in trouble. She was crying and talking about how bad she felt letting her kids down. Really?? I hope her mom got custody of those kids. She was too clueless to parent those 3 kids. You have to see this episode. Beats anything I've seen like this before. BIZARRE!

4 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I was literally yelling at my TV through the whole episode. Unbelievably naive. She was sexting and offering pix of her kids almost immediately. Her mom was kind of stupid too, I think. “Well, she needed someone to love her - beside me.” They both basically said her mom was coparenting. I guess that’s how a mom of three, including a six-month-old, has plenty of time and energy to go on the hunt for a new guy. 

Her mom: DO NOT TAKE THE KIDS TO SPOKANE!

Her: HE’S DYING! THE KIDS HAVE TO MEET HIM BEFORE HE DIES! 

She is SO lucky that Ivan wasn’t some kind of weirdo, and that he took the 2 kids to the police when he realized he was getting played, too. 

I found quite a few articles online that gave more detail about the case. 

Edited August 2, 2019 by Tabbygirl521

[geekgirl921]

Did anyone watch Primal Instinct last night? Geez, was that guy stupid! It's not exactly a secret that you were having an affair with her and got her pregnant. It was also not a secret that you were going to see her on the day that her car turned up abandoned but apparently, it didn't occur to you that the police would make a beeline for your door??

[auntjess]

On 7/28/2019 at 11:14 PM, ButterQueen said:

I have been bored to death with the ID channel lately.  My cable bill is now 250.00, with internet, and I am ready to get a lower package.  The problem is, I will lose the ID channel.  Xfinity couldn’t reach an agreement with them, so it’s no longer offered in my area....even if I upgraded my package. Customers who already had ID were grandfathered in. So many channels are doing crime shows, I think I’ll be fine.

Oxygen and TV1, esp. ATL Homicide.  A&E has a lot of First 48 reruns, and some other shows.

[LuvMyShows]

2 hours ago, auntjess said:

Oxygen and TV1, esp. ATL Homicide.  A&E has a lot of First 48 reruns, and some other shows.

Oooh, I had not realized that season 2 of ATL Homicide had started...7 episodes waiting for me!!

[ButterQueen]

I haven’t changed my Xfinity package yet.  We’re moving to a new city in a few months, so DH suggested I wait.  We’re moving near our kids and grandkids, and they have Lumos, which has the ID channel.  I’m not sure how Xfinity messed up their contract with ID.

Anyway, did anyone see the new Fear Thy Neighbor?  Holy shit is all I can say.

[Annber03]

18 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

Anyway, did anyone see the new Fear Thy Neighbor?  Holy shit is all I can say.

That story was ridiculous. The people who suffered the most were those poor children, 'cause all the adults were acting like complete, obnoxious morons well before it got to that tragic ending. The parents were stupid to keep escalating the situation when they knew the couple was already taking issue with them over the property lines and threatening violence and whatnot, and the couple were stupid to threaten violence and vandalize their place. The "alpha male" bullshit mentality is so stupid, they needed to get the fuck over themselves and grow up. 

(And the dad was mocking the woman's weight in front of his young daughters. Real great message you're sending to them there, idiot.)

[LuvMyShows]

9 hours ago, geekgirl921 said:

Did anyone watch Primal Instinct last night? Geez, was that guy stupid! It's not exactly a secret that you were having an affair with her and got her pregnant. It was also not a secret that you were going to see her on the day that her car turned up abandoned but apparently, it didn't occur to you that the police would make a beeline for your door??

The part I couldn't get past, is that they had public dates in the town, more than once!  Maybe he knew his wife wouldn't actually see them, but there are other people in the town who know him or know her, and would tell her.  And what would possess Jennifer to take him back so readily, after he had quit the job and moved away, and not even told her...to say nothing of repeatedly lying to her about leaving his wife. 

I do feel bad for her mom, but she said something to the effect of "We wouldn't have let her have a relationship with a man in that situation unless she knew that he was ending it."  Really?  You wouldn't have let her?  At any rate, the family seemed way too trusting and naive about what he was telling her about his status.

[auntjess]

5 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Oooh, I had not realized that season 2 of ATL Homicide had started...7 episodes waiting for me!!

All goodies, as I recall.  

[ButterQueen]

3 hours ago, Annber03 said:

That story was ridiculous. The people who suffered the most were those poor children, 'cause all the adults were acting like complete, obnoxious morons well before it got to that tragic ending. The parents were stupid to keep escalating the situation when they knew the couple was already taking issue with them over the property lines and threatening violence and whatnot, and the couple were stupid to threaten violence and vandalize their place. The "alpha male" bullshit mentality is so stupid, they needed to get the fuck over themselves and grow up. 

(And the dad was mocking the woman's weight in front of his young daughters. Real great message you're sending to them there, idiot.)

No matter what, killing two people with a shotgun is wrong.  The wife should have received a harsher sentence.

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, ButterQueen said:

No matter what, killing two people with a shotgun is wrong.  The wife should have received a harsher sentence.

Absolutely. She knew exactly where her husband was headed and what he was planning to do. Her silence makes her just as guilty. 

I agree with the guy who didn't think PTSD should be used as a defense, too. Like he said, plenty of people suffer with that, and yet they don't shoot their neighbors. If anything, I'm guessing the PTSD just exacerbated whatever aggressive tendencies he already had. 

[kathyk2]

I just saw an ad for Homicide Hunter. Joe Kenda said that this is the final season. He stated that he wanted to end the show before it became stale. The season starts August 28th.

[andromeda331]

21 minutes ago, kathyk2 said:

I just saw an ad for Homicide Hunter. Joe Kenda said that this is the final season. He stated that he wanted to end the show before it became stale. The season starts August 28th.

He does have another show in the works but hasn't said what its going to be about. 

[nokat]

On Friday, August 02, 2019 at 9:47 PM, Annber03 said:

Absolutely. She knew exactly where her husband was headed and what he was planning to do. Her silence makes her just as guilty.

I agree with the guy who didn't think PTSD should be used as a defense, too. Like he said, plenty of people suffer with that, and yet they don't shoot their neighbors. If anything, I'm guessing the PTSD just exacerbated whatever aggressive tendencies he already had.

The only people I feel bad for are the kids. Sorry, but intentionally triggering a veteran is an asshole move, and you deserve what you get. I don't boohoo over jerks. Yes, it was wrong to take a shotgun to them, but I won't cry any tears.

License to Kill, I'm a fan like others here. Now that is truly scary.
 

[nokat]

8 hours ago, kathyk2 said:

I just saw an ad for Homicide Hunter. Joe Kenda said that this is the final season. He stated that he wanted to end the show before it became stale. The season starts August 28th.

I think it is already stale. I could listen to Joe talk about his life for hours, but watching the actor do the young Joe is a bit boring. Joe himself with his bon mot and droll delivery is wonderful.
 

[Persnickety1]

Did anybody catch "Impact of Murder" last night?  I'm pretty sure that was the program, about the mother of two young children who was stabbed 80+ times, the 2-year-old daughter was killed, and the 4-year-old survived?  I believe it happened in 1988.  Absolutely horrifying.  

The most horrifying aspect was the neighbors outside grilling and ignoring her screams for help and seeing her back door open and be closed repeatedly by someone wearing a gold wristwatch as she tried to get away from her murderer.  

That was probably some of the coldest shit I've ever seen on one of these programs, which says a lot.  

Edited August 5, 2019 by Persnickety1

[funky-rat]

I can only take Kenda in short doses.  I don't mind dryness, but he's too dry for me.

I watched 2 episodes of the bad neighbor show that HLN is airing last night.  I've seen the George Trepal story before on a few different shows, but I hadn't seen the other one they aired (I can't recall the names of the families involved, but the dispute took place in Tennessee).  Makes me glad for my neighbors that we've spoken to exactly twice since we moved in (they're not hateful - they just keep to themselves).

I knew who the aggressor was as soon as they said the one neighbor dreamed of being a cop, but he was injured toward the end of his senior year in high school, and was no longer eligible.  There must be some psycho neighbor guidebook.  Hundreds of hours of video (and audio) but all edited to not show them starting the fight? Check.  Calls to make false reports to CPS and disability?  Check.  Brainwashing his kids in to helping him?  Check.  Lots of talk about guns?  Check.  Prior history of similar acts in other states?  Check.  He's the one harassing me and I have (heavily edited) proof!  Check.  Claims of self defense (but refusal to go to get medical documentation)?  Check.  Pleas from the neighbors to just call this off and leave each other alone?  Check.  Calls to the cops, who say "Just stay away from them"?  Check (multiple checks).  This one mailed stuff to the media 3 days before he shot the neighbor (in the back - 4 times - neighbor was unarmed).  The media knew immediately the footage had been heavily edited.  After searching his house and listening to some audio he hadn't edited, he had been planning this, and involving the media was to bolster his supposed claims of harassment.

I'm glad the guy got put away.  He had recently become a (likely armed) security guard at the local elementary school.  Yeesh.  I did disagree with them eventually dropping charges against his son.  I know why they did it, but he was 18, and old enough to know right from wrong.

His rhetoric of "The neighbor wanted to buy a gun from my (possibly unlicensed) gun shop that I run of of my shed, but I told him no because he had a felony for drug posession.  He asked me to allow his wife to buy the gun, but I told him no because I don't do straw man purchases, and he got mad at me and started harassing my family".  Sure......

http://archive.knoxnews.com/news/crime-courts/jury-deliberates-fate-of-former-knox-county-schools-security-officer-in-second-degree-murder-trial-3--389737961.html

[Writing Wrongs]

I started watching old episodes of Crimes That Shook Australia. Man, they've had some horrific shit. 

[nokat]

7 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I started watching old episodes of Crimes That Shook Australia. Man, they've had some horrific shit.

New episodes of Deadly Women are coming soon. I think that's Australian. Will have to look for Crimes that Shook Australia, because I can only imagine the horror.
 

[Dbolt]

Am I the only one watching the Todd Kohlhepp special?  There has actually been some stuff I had never heard before and this is local for me (I live in Anderson where Charlie and Kala are from and work in Spartanburg). 

[Persnickety1]

On 8/6/2019 at 5:35 AM, Dbolt said:

Am I the only one watching the Todd Kohlhepp special?  There has actually been some stuff I had never heard before and this is local for me (I live in Anderson where Charlie and Kala are from and work in Spartanburg). 

I have it on my DVR and will probably watch it this weekend.  

Is it pretty good?

[Dbolt]

2 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

I have it on my DVR and will probably watch it this weekend.  

Is it pretty good?

I don’t know that I would say it’s good, but there is some new and interesting information that I had never heard before and it is a subject well covered in our local news. 

[Persnickety1]

9 minutes ago, Dbolt said:

I don’t know that I would say it’s good, but there is some new and interesting information that I had never heard before and it is a subject well covered in our local news. 

I'm not familiar with the case, so I'll read up on it before I watch the show.

Thanks for the info!  😄 

[Persnickety1]

Well, holy Murder Comes to Town...yet another grizzly murder about 3 miles away from me, different perpetrator but still...and I live literally up in the mountains 40 miles from the nearest town and rarely does anything happen up here.  I guess the town is making up for lost time.  (Bolded below is mine, because the stupidity is unbelievable).  

https://abc30.com/man-admits-dismembering-body-to-cover-up-another-mans-crime/5448136/?fbclid=IwAR25C8rgKvoBOYgWyVRWzAa0QP-HxvxQqzWZTvoFshFngxl9TlFjdmzoCNQ

Squaw Valley murder: Man admits dismembering body to cover up another man's crime

FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) -- A Squaw Valley man admitted to cutting up and burying a body last year but says he did it to cover up another man's crime.

Billy Silks didn't kill Gary Duane Smith, but he spent a lot of time with Smith's dead body.

He woke up on July 5, 2018 -- the day Smith died -- to a woman panicked and asking for help.

"What did she tell you?" prosecutor Nathan Lambert asked Silks.

"That Roger shot Gary and Gary was dead," Silks said.

Roger Johnson is charged with Smith's murder.

Witnesses say he shot Smith in the head through his locked front door, on a property known for drug operations.

Silks wanted to know why.

"I just asked him why he did it, like what was going on," he said. "And that's all that he said, 'He didn't have to taunt me.'"

Silks says Johnson told him to get rid of the body, but never gave him marching orders or specific instructions.

Silks actually disposed of Smith's body four times:

First, covered in plywood off to the side of the house.

Then, the same day, Sammy Wood drove him to a remote road near Johnson's property and Silks covered the body in brush.

A couple of days later, Silks and Wood say they moved it further off the road and covered him with rocks in a creek bottom.

And a couple of weeks after that, Silks says he went back out there and tried to hide Smith's body in a shallow grave.

"I cut the body in half," he said. "So that I did it alone, by myself."

"So you took it upon yourself to dismember the body?" asked defense attorney Jeremy Snell.

"Yes.," Silks said.

It was six months before Silks finally led one of Smith's friends to his body.

(Rest of article at link above)

[nokat]

Has an episode of "Buried in the Backyard" to watch. @persnickity1, Not sure how I'd feel watching something with places or people I recognized. 
 

[Persnickety1]

12 hours ago, nokat said:

Has an episode of "Buried in the Backyard" to watch. @persnickity1, Not sure how I'd feel watching something with places or people I recognized. 
 

Is that a real ID Discovery show?  If so, I must go find it!  

[Josette]

7 minutes ago, Persnickety1 said:

Is that a real ID Discovery show?  If so, I must go find it!  

It's a real show, but it airs on Oxygen.

[nokat]

3 hours ago, Josette said:

It's a real show, but it airs on Oxygen.

Thanks Josette. Yes, Oxygen. License to Kill is also on there.  @persnickety, they are both watchable.
 

[Annber03]

Anyone else here watching the Sundance documentary "No One Saw a Thing"? It's about the 1981 murder of Ken McElroy in Skidmore, Missouri. He was known as the town bully and had a pretty nasty rap sheet, but never seemed to face any kind of justice for his crimes. So one day, fed up with his constant bullying and evading justice, one or more of the townspeople shot him dead, in broad daylight, with numerous witnesses to the murder standing by. 

And yet in all the years since, nobody has come forward to admit to murdering him, or knowing who committed the murder. Partly out of fear of retribution, partly because practically everyone in that town is glad McElroy is dead and have no interest in punishing whomever did it. Law enforcement doesn't seem to have had much luck, either, and a lot of that, people believe, is due to many of them being involved in the coverup. 

It's a pretty fascinating, and unsettling, story thus far. Based off what they've shared about McElroy's history in the town, I can certainly understand why so many people would want to be rid of him for good. I can even understand the desire to kill him. He definitely seemed like a real scumbag.

At the same time, I'm not exactly a proponent of vigilante justice, and while I could understand the citizens wanting to keep quiet about who murdered him, law enforcement officials absolutely should not be involved in covering up any knowledge of a murder. 

Plus, between this documentary and what I'm reading about the town of Skidmore in general, it just sounds like a really dark, sad place to live, period. These townspeople seem way too fond of or resigned to violence being a means to solve problems, or just being part of living in town, and it's rather disturbing. 

I also can't help but feel bad for McElroy's wife Trina a bit. She was only 14 when she got together with him-apparently the guy had a predilection for very young girls in general (and some of the people being interviewed did not seem all that bothered by that fact, which is...creepy). So I can easily see some of her defense of him as the result of years of any manipulation and grooming he no doubt would've done towards her. And it's one thing for the townspeople to want to take out McElroy himself, but they also apparently tried to harass and threaten Trina and her kids, too. That's not fair or right. 

Anywho, so yeah, if people here haven't seen this yet, I recommend it. And those who have, I'd like to hear your thoughts, too. 

[ratgirlagogo]

On 8/9/2019 at 5:26 AM, Annber03 said:

Anyone else here watching the Sundance documentary "No One Saw a Thing"?

So far, yes.  But I just can't handle the way they're dragging this thing out for SIX EPISODES. The first two hour-long episodes could have been edited into one 45 minute episode without loss of content. 

Can you recommend a good written source about this case?  because I can read so much faster than I can watch/listen, especially to this typically slow-moving TV true crime show.

[Annber03]

I don't mind the numerous episodes, myself, because I think there's some interesting little details being sprinkled in throughout that really add to the overall story, but I can also see where it might come off rather slow for others, yeah.

I've read the Wikipedia articles on the case and on the town of Skidmore themselves, so there might be a good place to start for you. I'll go through some of the links at the bottom at some point and see if there's any further interesting reading material in there, too.

The story was also covered in an episode of "City Confidential" once. It's called "Frontier Justice", so if you're able to find that one somewhere that's a good, condensed way to hear the story, too :). 

[Tabbygirl521]

On 8/9/2019 at 2:26 AM, Annber03 said:

Anyone else here watching the Sundance documentary "No One Saw a Thing"? It's about the 1981 murder of Ken McElroy in Skidmore, Missouri. He was known as the town bully and had a pretty nasty rap sheet, but never seemed to face any kind of justice for his crimes. So one day, fed up with his constant bullying and evading justice, one or more of the townspeople shot him dead, in broad daylight, with numerous witnesses to the murder standing by. 

And yet in all the years since, nobody has come forward to admit to murdering him, or knowing who committed the murder. Partly out of fear of retribution, partly because practically everyone in that town is glad McElroy is dead and have no interest in punishing whomever did it. Law enforcement doesn't seem to have had much luck, either, and a lot of that, people believe, is due to many of them being involved in the coverup. 

It's a pretty fascinating, and unsettling, story thus far. Based off what they've shared about McElroy's history in the town, I can certainly understand why so many people would want to be rid of him for good. I can even understand the desire to kill him. He definitely seemed like a real scumbag.

At the same time, I'm not exactly a proponent of vigilante justice, and while I could understand the citizens wanting to keep quiet about who murdered him, law enforcement officials absolutely should not be involved in covering up any knowledge of a murder. 

Plus, between this documentary and what I'm reading about the town of Skidmore in general, it just sounds like a really dark, sad place to live, period. These townspeople seem way too fond of or resigned to violence being a means to solve problems, or just being part of living in town, and it's rather disturbing. 

I also can't help but feel bad for McElroy's wife Trina a bit. She was only 14 when she got together with him-apparently the guy had a predilection for very young girls in general (and some of the people being interviewed did not seem all that bothered by that fact, which is...creepy). So I can easily see some of her defense of him as the result of years of any manipulation and grooming he no doubt would've done towards her. And it's one thing for the townspeople to want to take out McElroy himself, but they also apparently tried to harass and threaten Trina and her kids, too. That's not fair or right. 

Anywho, so yeah, if people here haven't seen this yet, I recommend it. And those who have, I'd like to hear your thoughts, too. 

Oh, I didn’t know about this, but I did read a great book about this case quite awhile. Some people apparently do need killin’. I need to see this. 

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Oh, I didn’t know about this, but I did read a great book about this case quite awhile. Some people apparently do need killin’. I need to see this. 

I hope you find it interesting! I'll have to check out that book. 

[Brattinella]

9 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Oh, I didn’t know about this, but I did read a great book about this case quite awhile. Some people apparently do need killin’. I need to see this. 

I saw a couple documentaries about this man; he definitely needed killin'. 

[UncleChuck]

15 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

Can you recommend a good written source about this case?

In Broad Daylight, by Harry Maclean, written in 1988 is pretty detailed.  A lot of interviews with McElroy's family as well as the townspeople.

The book was made into a tv movie with the same name starring Brian Dennehey.

[Minivanessa]

Has anyone else watched Manson: The Women on Oxygen? It's repeating right now. I saw most of it earlier today.

It's a two hour documentary featuring four women who were part of Manson's criminal cult ("family" only in the nastiest sense of the word) back in the day. Two of them - "Blue" (Sandra Good) and "Squeaky" (Fromme) - are IMO just BSC. In an evil way. Blue is, if possible, even more evilly BSC than Squeaky.

The non-BSC former cultists on the show are Catherine Share ("Gypsy") and Dianne Lake ("Snake"). 

There are also THs by a few authors who've written about the Manson gang. (ETA: Also at least one former prosecutor.)

I was finishing law school when the book Helter Skelter, which had been out for a couple of years, was recommended to me. To this day, 40+ years later, I remember how freaking terrifying it was to read parts of that book. So yeah when old "Blue" sat there on this show and said just because you kill someone you aren't an evil person, I just. couldn't. She's still a cultist and one f*cked up human unit.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Jeeves

[Brattinella]

Sandra Good has always been a terrifying person.  I am not entirely sure she isn't responsible for a couple of murders.

I haven't seen this show yet; recording it tonight. 

[hoosiermom]

Anybody watch License to Kill tonight. It was one of my all time favorite cases. Michael Swango was an evil person but his ability to get away with what he did for so long is partly to blame on the hospitals and licensing procedures. There was a lot more interesting stuff in his background so 1 hour was just not enough to do the case justice.

[For Cereals]

3 hours ago, Jeeves said:

 Two of them - "Blue" (Sandra Good) and "Squeaky" (Fromme) - are IMO just BSC. In an evil way. Blue is, if possible, even more evilly BSC than Squeaky.

I watched it and someone should be keeping an eye on those two.  Blue was scary.  They’ve both had years of exposure beyond The Family but I don’t think either should be in society.

Another topic, Kemper on Kemper was crazy!  I know it raises so many other questions but is there any way to isolate the psychopath gene and Crisper that sh*t?  Those are the shows that terrify me the most.

[badhaggis]

6 hours ago, hoosiermom said:

Anybody watch License to Kill tonight. It was one of my all time favorite cases. Michael Swango was an evil person but his ability to get away with what he did for so long is partly to blame on the hospitals and licensing procedures. There was a lot more interesting stuff in his background so 1 hour was just not enough to do the case justice.

I did. What a colossal failure of the medical reporting system!  Really reminded me of the first episode about Dr death Christopher Duntsch.  Again able to move hospitals and states to make other patients until two doctors started a campaign to stop him. They did this  at great person risk to their careers. They felt so strongly he had to be stopped and the system was not doing it.

[doodlebug]

7 hours ago, hoosiermom said:

Anybody watch License to Kill tonight. It was one of my all time favorite cases. Michael Swango was an evil person but his ability to get away with what he did for so long is partly to blame on the hospitals and licensing procedures. There was a lot more interesting stuff in his background so 1 hour was just not enough to do the case justice.

I was a medical student at Ohio State when Swango's actions became known.  I never met him, but I did a neurosurgery rotation with a couple of residents who had worked with him.  When he was an intern, his fellow residents referred to him as 'Double O Swango, licensed to kill' which is kinda ironic considering the name of this show.  They were all shocked when he was arrested, though, they all thought he was just an incompetent resident who got fired because of it.  It never occurred to them that he was actively killing patients.  They were also somewhat pissed that no one did a more thorough background check before admitting him into the program.

Edited August 12, 2019 by doodlebug

[funky-rat]

I saw the "Married With Secrets" ep about Jean-Claude Dominique over the weekend. Man, what a sleeze.  I half-wonder if it was his brother that ran him over.  And then to tell his (real) wife that she needed to pony up $30,000 for the funeral, but she wasn't allowed to attend?  The brother is a real piece of work.

[SunnyBeBe]

11 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Has anyone else watched Manson: The Women on Oxygen? It's repeating right now. I saw most of it earlier today.

It's a two hour documentary featuring four women who were part of Manson's criminal cult ("family" only in the nastiest sense of the word) back in the day. Two of them - "Blue" (Sandra Good) and "Squeaky" (Fromme) - are IMO just BSC. In an evil way. Blue is, if possible, even more evilly BSC than Squeaky.

The non-BSC former cultists on the show are Catherine Share ("Gypsy") and Dianne Lake ("Snake"). 

There are also THs by a few authors who've written about the Manson gang. (ETA: Also at least one former prosecutor.)

I was finishing law school when the book Helter Skelter, which had been out for a couple of years, was recommended to me. To this day, 40+ years later, I remember how freaking terrifying it was to read parts of that book. So yeah when old "Blue" sat there on this show and said just because you kill someone you aren't an evil person, I just. couldn't. She's still a cultist and one f*cked up human unit.

I watched a good portion of The Women Of Manson special.  I thought it gave some good background.  I liked seeing some of the photos and rare interviews, however, I always take these testimonies with a lot of skepticism.  Granted, some of these women were children, like Snake, who was 14 years old when she met Charlie.  If you are under the age of consent, then, what is happening is a felony against the child, no matter how much she was on board. Still illegal and it should have been prosecuted.  Lots of adults dropped the ball with this.  Did they actually show a photo of Snake with the group?  Anyway, my point is not directed at children, but, older people who claim that Charlie was mesmerizing, charming, captivating, etc. and because of this they pledged their soul to him and did whatever he asked.  That is really difficult for me to buy, because,  no matter what footage you look at, Charlie came off as an ignorant, backwards, socially awkward, mentally unstable, untrustworthy, grifter, criminal.    So, when I hear the accounts of how they were enticed......I just don't buy it.  Maybe, I feel that way due to being exposed to what I consider cult leaders as a child, who called themselves fundamental baptists preachers.  I feel the same way about Rev. Jim Jones and David Koresh.  Some people are so outlandishly, fake, that I can't envision their appeal, regardless of a person's situation. 

Anyone see the English couple on recent episode of Deep Waters?  I'm glad the wife escaped.  Her husband really liked to push the envelope.  I kept wondering if any family member would say anything negative about that trip.  

[Minivanessa]

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I watched a good portion of The Women Of Manson special.  I thought it gave some good background. . . . .  Some people are so outlandishly, fake, that I can't envision their appeal, regardless of a person's situation. 

Oh, I totally don't see how anyone could be attracted to Manson. He was, as you said, such an ignorant creep. But, the fact remains that those young women seemed to be happily jerked around by him like puppets. That show included footage showing the non-jailed Manson "family" with shaved heads and foreheads into which they'd carved an "X" - which they did on cue from Charlie. Someone commented (I think a former prosecutor) that while in court Charlie's defense was that he didn't order anyone to kill, the daily public antics of his obviously loyal followers - the ones in jail and outside of it - painted a different picture.

Sandra Good remains an admirer - follower, if you will - of Charlie Manson to this day. Squeaky does too, and claimed that Manson didn't make those people kill anyone. "He didn't raise them," she said. At the same time, she said she refused to leave prison even when given parole because she wanted to be there with the others including Charlie, and they had to "throw me out" when she'd served all her time. Yeah, it all sounds crazy to me but they seem to be sincere, and sincerely scary.

I don't get just how, but I believe the guy managed to create a band of followers. As also explained in the documentary, they lived in isolation (no phone, no TV, no newspapers) and he plied them with psychoactive and hallucinogenic drugs. I'm no expert on cults so I don't know if some or most of them were particularly vulnerable to such grooming.  

[funky-rat]

RE: Manson Girls

Some of the things I've read over the years said that most of the girls he enticed to him came from backgrounds where they had some issue with their fathers, and family life in general.  Some had real issues, and others were alleged to be perceived issues, but nonetheless...  He would tell them all that he was their father now. 

Susan Atkin's mother died when she was 13, and eventually, her father abndoned bother Susan and her brother and went off for work in another state. 

Squeaky was a talented child, but her father uprooted them when she was a teenager, and she fell in to drug abuse.  Her father kicked her out of the house when she dropped out of college. 

Patricia Krenwinkel's parents divorced when she was a teen.  She was chubby and was picked on for having excess body hair.  She said Manson was the first man to tell her she was beautiful.

Catherine Share's parents committed suicide when she was just a toddler, and she was adopted.  She said she was happy until her adopted mother found out she was ill, and killed herself.  Her adopted father was blind, and she wasn't happy so she took off when she graduated high school.

Leslie Van Houten's parents divorced when she was 14.  She had a number of siblings who had been adopted from other countries.  When she was 15, she got pregnant and she was forced to have an abortion.  She has said that both of her parents were alcoholics.

Linda Kasabian's parents fought frequently, and her father eventually took off.  She had a step-father who was abusive, and many brothers and sisters.  Her mother was too busy to pay her any attention, and she took off from home at age 16, and had been married twice, and had one child when she met up with Manson.

Sandra Good also came from a broken home, and struggled in school (7 years in 3 colleges with no graduation).

I recall seeing something about the Manson Girls on another channel, and one of them (not one of the ones in prison currently) had parents who got swept up in the counterculture and was essentially cut loose to explore when they were very young. Can't remember which one it was.

The climate in the US at the time, the age of his "family", the isolation, and easy availability of drugs was just the perfect storm.  I know lots of people who had shitty upbringings and didn't kill people, but Manson knew who to target for maximum loyalty.

[Angeltoes]

2 hours ago, funky-rat said:

I recall seeing something about the Manson Girls on another channel, and one of them (not one of the ones in prison currently) had parents who got swept up in the counterculture and was essentially cut loose to explore when they were very young. Can't remember which one it was.

I think you mean Dianne Lake.  I read her book but don't remember much of it.

https://www.amazon.com/Member-Family-Charles-Darkness-Sixties/dp/0062695576

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, funky-rat said:

RE: Manson Girls

Some of the things I've read over the years said that most of the girls he enticed to him came from backgrounds where they had some issue with their fathers, and family life in general.  Some had real issues, and others were alleged to be perceived issues, but nonetheless...  He would tell them all that he was their father now. 

Susan Atkin's mother died when she was 13, and eventually, her father abndoned bother Susan and her brother and went off for work in another state. 

Squeaky was a talented child, but her father uprooted them when she was a teenager, and she fell in to drug abuse.  Her father kicked her out of the house when she dropped out of college. 

Patricia Krenwinkel's parents divorced when she was a teen.  She was chubby and was picked on for having excess body hair.  She said Manson was the first man to tell her she was beautiful.

Catherine Share's parents committed suicide when she was just a toddler, and she was adopted.  She said she was happy until her adopted mother found out she was ill, and killed herself.  Her adopted father was blind, and she wasn't happy so she took off when she graduated high school.

Leslie Van Houten's parents divorced when she was 14.  She had a number of siblings who had been adopted from other countries.  When she was 15, she got pregnant and she was forced to have an abortion.  She has said that both of her parents were alcoholics.

Linda Kasabian's parents fought frequently, and her father eventually took off.  She had a step-father who was abusive, and many brothers and sisters.  Her mother was too busy to pay her any attention, and she took off from home at age 16, and had been married twice, and had one child when she met up with Manson.

Sandra Good also came from a broken home, and struggled in school (7 years in 3 colleges with no graduation).

I recall seeing something about the Manson Girls on another channel, and one of them (not one of the ones in prison currently) had parents who got swept up in the counterculture and was essentially cut loose to explore when they were very young. Can't remember which one it was.

The climate in the US at the time, the age of his "family", the isolation, and easy availability of drugs was just the perfect storm.  I know lots of people who had shitty upbringings and didn't kill people, but Manson knew who to target for maximum loyalty.

50 minutes ago, Angeltoes said:

I think you mean Dianne Lake.  I read her book but don't remember much of it.

https://www.amazon.com/Member-Family-Charles-Darkness-Sixties/dp/0062695576

Was she the one allowed to live with a couple at thirteen which her stupid parents were completely okay with and then the couple asked her to leave some time later because they were breaking the law? Amazing how the couple thinks of that after they took in and slept with the 13 year old for awhile and then decided it was wrong and to kick the 13 year old out? She left I think at 14 and then met Manson. Again her parents were totally okay with because they were too busy exploring the counterculture bullshit. I think her story was part of the 1969 special but it might have been another Manson story. The parents apologized later and realized it was wrong of them she managed to forgive them which amazed me I can't imagine forgiving parents for that. Who the hell hands their thirteen year old over to another couple? Especially when its freaking clear the couple wanted to have sex with her? Oh, they are sorry later? Wow, its amazing how that always happens later too.

[badhaggis]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Was she the one allowed to live with a couple at thirteen which her stupid parents were completely okay with and then the couple asked her to leave some time later because they were breaking the law? Amazing how the couple thinks of that after they took in and slept with the 13 year old for awhile and then decided it was wrong and to kick the 13 year old out? She left I think at 14 and then met Manson. Again her parents were totally okay with because they were too busy exploring the counterculture bullshit. I think her story was part of the 1969 special but it might have been another Manson story. The parents apologized later and realized it was wrong of them she managed to forgive them which amazed me I can't imagine forgiving parents for that. Who the hell hands their thirteen year old over to another couple? Especially when its freaking clear the couple wanted to have sex with her? Oh, they are sorry later? Wow, its amazing how that always happens later too.

She was also on the "People Magazine Investigates: Cults" about the Manson family.