General True Crime Shows

[Tabbygirl521]

On 8/20/2019 at 7:13 AM, Josette said:

 I thought it was a sort of a silly thing to say as well, but it was a fresh crime scene.  The victim had been buried for hours, not weeks or months.   This was the male victim, not the woman.

I kind of hate “Buried in the Backyard.” I was really anticipating the very first episode which took place in Puyallup, WA - I’m in Seattle, so kind of local. But the case was presented as if Seattle LE was handling the investigation. And as if Seattle and Puyallup are synonymous. They’re not even in the same county. So that pretty much shot the show’s credibility for me. 

[Lizzing]

Regarding the Kreider episode of Evil Lives Here, it was a horrible store, but the reenactment was odd.  Usually ELH does pretty okay with them, but this time...they but the boy Alec actor in clearly Jeffrey Dahmer oversized glasses and then they cast the boy playing the "little" brother to be several inches taller and at least 15 pounds heavier.  Those were some really odd choices made on the reenactment production side.

Also, I couldn't tell if the dad was smirking the entire time he was telling the story or if he just was worn down by telling the story so much.

[Tabbygirl521]

On 8/20/2019 at 5:58 PM, auntjess said:

I really hope there's some back story, that explains why the Salem cops did what they did, because

  Reveal spoiler

her family and friends ask for a welfare check, because they can't get in touch with her.
The cops go, find a young couple, wife claims to know the woman, shows them a piece of paper purportedly signed by victim, saying she's leaving town and guy will sell her things and send her the money.
Cops BUY this story, and apparently don't even run the guy's name, because he had a record.
Family had never heard of these folks.
Couldn't she have still been alive but tied up, at the time.

 

You think Salem cops would be more savvy. There’s a correctional institution in town (Diane Downs spent time there) and there’s a whole area called Felony Flats where the loved ones of prisoners live. Salem is a nice little town in a lot of ways but there’s enough sketchiness that is expect cops to be pretty sophisticated. 

[Persnickety1]

18 hours ago, LGraves65 said:

I watched it. 

When the dad was talking about Alec's inability to be around his family when they ate? That's called misophonia. I have it, and it's hell. I realize Alec had other, deeper problems, but misophonia is a sign that the brain isn't processing sounds and emotions in a normal way. I wish his parents had gotten him more help.

He started showing symptoms of needing professional treatment at such a young age, and I think he was over 10 years old when they finally got him into therapy "for several months."  I eye rolled so hard I almost fell out of my chair.  Had they kept him in therapy, perhaps those 3 people would be alive today....and maybe even Alec himself would have chosen another path and be alive today as well.  

I normally try not to point the finger at the parents, but I really felt the proverbial ball was dropped with this kid.  I'm not sure if it was denial on the parents' part or their faith that made them resistant to behavioral health treatment, but a few months of therapy clearly wasn't sufficient to diagnose and treat Alec's symptoms.  The kid had more warning signs that a cluster of railroad tracks.  I couldn't believe the dad had given a kid with a propensity for violence, anger outbursts, and barely controlled rage a damned knife which ultimately turned out to be the murder weapon.  Crazy.  I'm sure if he wanted a father/son "bonding moment," he could have found it with something non-lethal.  Ugh.

I also found it interesting the mother and the siblings were blurred out in every single family photo and didn't appear to have any involvement with the show whatsoever.  I don't blame them.  I'd want to dive into obscurity, too.  

[Persnickety1]

12 hours ago, Lizzing said:

Regarding the Kreider episode of Evil Lives Here, it was a horrible store, but the reenactment was odd.  Usually ELH does pretty okay with them, but this time...they but the boy Alec actor in clearly Jeffrey Dahmer oversized glasses and then they cast the boy playing the "little" brother to be several inches taller and at least 15 pounds heavier.  Those were some really odd choices made on the reenactment production side.

Also, I couldn't tell if the dad was smirking the entire time he was telling the story or if he just was worn down by telling the story so much.

It reminded me of the dude in the video for Psycho Killer by the Talking Heads.  

My skin crawled when the dad was talking about how he was pondering whether to cover the murders up and take Alec off for a "fresh start" somewhere.  Dude, it's not like he accidentally hit someone with his car and killed them.  He savagely, with intent and premeditation,  slaughtered three people (would have been four if the sister hadn't managed to escape).  That kid needed to be locked away from society, not given a "fresh start."  The way he seemed to despise his family, I was actually rather surprised he didn't kill them as well.  The more the man talked, the more I began to give him the side eye about where Alec got the crazy gene.  

When he said the cops told him it wasn't his fault what his son did, I thought to myself, "Well, as a matter of fact, it is..."  

[LuvMyShows]

21 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

Til Death Do Us Part was also a very interesting episode, very Clara Harris scenario and also occurred in Texas.  

I was horrified to learn that the Sudden Passion defense carries a minimum of only TWO F*ING years in Texas!  She had already called her daughter to say that she was going after the mistress, so any action she took and the death that occurred as a result, was in conjunction with something pre-meditated, so that seems more like Involuntary Manslaughter.  Sudden Passion as a whole just pisses me off...it's like saying, "Oh, so you were really, really angry/hurt?  OK then, it's totes understandable.  Here's your slap on the wrist."

[Persnickety1]

2 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

I was horrified to learn that the Sudden Passion defense carries a minimum of only TWO F*ING years in Texas!  She had already called her daughter to say that she was going after the mistress, so any action she took and the death that occurred as a result, was in conjunction with something pre-meditated, so that seems more like Involuntary Manslaughter.  Sudden Passion as a whole just pisses me off...it's like saying, "Oh, so you were really, really angry/hurt?  OK then, it's totes understandable.  Here's your slap on the wrist."

I think that's the same argument that was used in Clara Harris' case, but IIRC Clara got 15 years and was just released about a year ago.  I find it interesting that both were in Texas yet the sentences were so vastly different for the two women under very similar circumstances.

[LuvMyShows]

Just watched the new ID show The Murder Tapes, episode Albuquerque Ambush.  At the very end, it showed on the screen that Terri's wife was given custody of Don's daughter.  Did I miss something where it was explained why the wife of the murderer was given custody of the victim's daughter?  It also said that Terri's wife moved away and they don't see the girl.  But just because the daughter moved away, Don's family still has the ability to be in very close touch with her if they want, but it doesn't sound like they are (unless Terri's wife physically prohibited it, but I think they would have said that if that were the case), so I wonder what really happened.

[badhaggis]

1 minute ago, LuvMyShows said:

Just watched the new ID show The Murder Tapes, episode Albuquerque Ambush.  At the very end, it showed on the screen that Terri's wife was given custody of Don's daughter.  Did I miss something where it was explained why the wife of the murderer was given custody of the victim's daughter?  It also said that Terri's wife moved away and they don't see the girl.  But just because the daughter moved away, Don's family still has the ability to be in very close touch with her if they want, but it doesn't sound like they are (unless Terri's wife physically prohibited it, but I think they would have said that if that were the case), so I wonder what really happened.

She is Don's ex-wife and the mother of the little girl. She was afraid she would lose custody in an ongoing family court case they had. She may have been part of the plan to kill Don however there is no proof.

[LuvMyShows]

4 hours ago, badhaggis said:

She is Don's ex-wife and the mother of the little girl. She was afraid she would lose custody in an ongoing family court case they had. She may have been part of the plan to kill Don however there is no proof.

Thanks!  That's what I get for watching some of the show one day, and then finishing the rest of the show a few days later...some of the details go out the window!

[ridethemaverick]

Re: Evil Lives Here, I, too was horrified to see that father/son bonding moment. Why give a clearly angry and unstable young kid who doesn't hunt a HUNTING KNIFE? 

Perhaps I don't understand weapon culture, or male bonding, but wth? A few months ago I asked the same question about the dad who gave his unstable son a gun as a present (said son went on to shoot people). I will never understand it.

[Jeeves]

On 8/22/2019 at 10:01 PM, sskrill said:

Katie Phipps and Robin Spielbauer ... Its weird how unlikable she is in the beginning of the episode .. I wonder if that was done on purpose for effect?

That DA starting to cry while talking about keeping her locked up for over a year... that was hard to watch.

But Jeremy killing over child support is pathetic.  Wonder why he wasn't put to death.  I expected better of you Texas.

I missed the first several minutes of that show last week, but watched the rest. What a nightmare to be locked up for a crime you didn't commit! I'm impressed that she didn't turn into a basket case over it, and I'm rooting for her to become a successful lawyer.

During the show I watched that old DA cry about it - which was damn cold comfort. He'd locked in on Katie as the killer and by God he was going to nail her. I suppose it's a credit to his essential honesty that when he finally got the evidence that corroborated her alibi he didn't hide it or destroy it, but dismissed the charges. Still, when he said he'd retired after that case, I said, well about time. Although TBH after growing up in Texas, my expectations as to its criminal justice system are low as snake spit. I'm damned surprised that they eventually found and convicted the right person for the murder.

I posted upthread not long ago about that Oxygen show Manson: The Women. Because it ticked my interest, I got Helter Skelter from the library and am just finishing reading it. I hadn't read it since the mid-1970's and of course I'd forgotten a LOT that was in it. I was pleased to see that it's an updated 1994 edition with a substantial afterword in which Vincent Bugliosi updated us on pretty much everyone who featured in the book on all sides of the law. 

Because we talked about it here I wanted to mention that in the chapter on the penalty phase of the trial of Manson and his henchwomen, I really got what Bugliosi had to say bout the culpability of those three women. Yes, they were brainwashed by Manson, and they each were vulnerable to such brainwashing. But many others had also been brainwashed by Charlie and joined the family, and idolized Charlie - but wouldn't or couldn't kill people. Linda Kasabian, for one. OTOH the three co-defendants *did* murder. By the end of that section of the book I was persuaded that at least one of them would have committed murder, or serious violence against someone, had she never met Charlie. Maybe all of them. 

And after reading about all the antics of the devoted non-incarcerated Family members during and after the Tate-LaBianca murder trial? I find the idea of Blue and Squeaky living among us to be even scarier than I did after watching that show on Oxygen. Yikes!

[LuvMyShows]

Just watched ID's The Lies That Bind, episode "Smoke and Mirrors".  When David Allen was explaining to the detective what he was doing as the fire was going, he said he was running around yelling to his wife Paula "Wake up, wake up, wake up."  I really wanted to hear some follow-up questioning to that, like, "Why wasn't she waking up if you were yelling and screaming?  Why didn't you just grab her out of the bed?"  And I wanted to hear from the experts more about why she was found face up by the front door, but hadn't made it out the front door.  

Also, I really don't understand people in this day and age, especially when they send gazillions of texts back and forth, lying about whatever it is that they're not supposed to be doing.  And David's adulterous squeeze didn't just lie to the detectives...she lied to a freaking grand jury and was convicted of perjury.  Dumb?  Arrogant?  Naive?

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Also, I really don't understand people in this day and age, especially when they send gazillions of texts back and forth, lying about whatever it is that they're not supposed to be doing.  And David's adulterous squeeze didn't just lie to the detectives...she lied to a freaking grand jury and was convicted of perjury.  Dumb?  Arrogant?  Naive?

God, THIS. It was stunning how much they were flaunting their relationship while simultaneously trying to put on this innocent facade. "Oh, there totally wasn't anything going on between us when his wife was alive! No, it's just pure coincidence that we happened to start spending time together, what, a mere week or so after her death, and started calling each other 'baby' in our phone calls and such!" Come. The hell. On. 

It was especially creepy to hear one of David's daughters talking about how David's mistress, who knew and went to school with his daughter, would openly tell her about how attractive her dad was. Yep. No warning flags going on there, noooooo. 

[SunnyBeBe]

This movie that airs on cable station TV One, is very interesting, imo.  It is BASED ON A TRUE STORY.  Some say, one that happened in Texas.  The movie called Sins of The Father. It's a 2019 film.  It covers the murder investigation of a prominent preacher's wife that occurred in Texas.  Includes interviews by a psychologist of the preachers's son.  I wasn't sure where to put this.  There's nothing around here about it in movies or networks on TV One network.  I have discovered that TV One also airs a lot of true crime shows. 

https://tvcrimesky.com/2019/07/06/sins-of-the-father-watch-tv-one-true-story-movie-inspired-by-tracy-burleson-pauletta-houston-texas-murder/1613

[LuvMyShows]

Need some help identifying an actor.  He was in the recent The Case That Haunts Me, "The Orion Project" playing the lead detective.  I also saw him in another ID show within the past year.  But beyond that, I know that I recognize him from a TV show at least 10 years ago.  I feel like it was a show similar to Thirty Something, or Once and Again, and I think he was one of the leads...for some reason, I have the character name Billy or William.  Anyone have any ideas?

[SunnyBeBe]

12 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Need some help identifying an actor.  He was in the recent The Case That Haunts Me, "The Orion Project" playing the lead detective.  I also saw him in another ID show within the past year.  But beyond that, I know that I recognize him from a TV show at least 10 years ago.  I feel like it was a show similar to Thirty Something, or Once and Again, and I think he was one of the leads...for some reason, I have the character name Billy or William.  Anyone have any ideas?

I am watching The Orion Project episode now On Demand.  Hopefully, I can get the name of that actor.  He looks vaguely familiar. The case is fascinating, though disturbing. 

He really is a sexy man.  He is a Canadian actor named Gil Bellows.  Turns out, he has quite a following.

Edited September 3, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[geekgirl921]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I am watching The Orion Project episode now On Demand.  Hopefully, I can get the name of that actor.  He looks vaguely familiar. The case is fascinating, though disturbing. 

He really is a sexy man.  He is a Canadian actor named Gil Bellows.  Turns out, he has quite a following.

He was on Ally McBeal!

[LuvMyShows]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

He is a Canadian actor named Gil Bellows.  Turns out, he has quite a following.

1 hour ago, geekgirl921 said:

He was on Ally McBeal!

Thank you both!!!

[LuvMyShows]

Watched the latest Extreme Measures ep, "Don't You Be My Neighbor".

So first of all, I hate it when the title gives something away.  From this title, we knew that any of the suspects who weren't a neighbor, could be eliminated.

Also, I was stunned that in New Mexico, you can't get a DNA test done on evidence until you have a suspect.  But in cases with very little to go on, the DNA evidence could lead to a suspect.  The only reason I can come up with for this policy, is to help avoid shoddy police work where they are relying only on the DNA evidence, but wow, it still seems very, very short-sighted.

And this episode confirmed for me something I have wondered/worried about.  The police/detectives made an initial canvass of the neighbors but no one was there at one of the houses, so it fell through the cracks and they never did go back to talk to them.  I have always wondered about this every time I watch a show where they canvass the neighbors...how do they know that they have accounted for not just every house, but every person at every house, since just because the person who is home at the time didn't see anything suspicious, doesn't mean that no one else in the house might have seen something suspicious. 

But the worst part to me, was something the detective told the family when he was assigned to the case.  As he was recounting this in his voice-over, he got tearful, and said that he told the family that he would take a personal interest in the case because his family lives near there (where the murder happened) and he wanted to make sure they were safe.  WTAF?  Boo hoo that you're worried about what might happen to your family, while this family is already dealing with the horrific death of a loved one.  So it's all about you?  That is such an incredibly insensitive thing to say to them.

[SunnyBeBe]

Another rather common practice that bothers me is law enforcement informing family members that their loved one is dead by telephone.  Really? I know that it might have to happen in some circumstances, but, it's supposed to be protocol (back when I worked in Law enforcement) to contact a local law enforcement agency to go to their house and tell them.  Then, you can call them to provide more info.  I just don't get calling someone in the middle night and telling them their child has been murdered.  It boggles the mind.  There should be a person there and someone to help them, if necessary.  

[Annber03]

Oh, god, funny you say that, 'cause I just watched an episode of "American Monster" in which a woman got two calls relating to a case involving the murder of her family. The first one was somebody asking her to confirm a particular car that the officers were keeping tabs on was hers ('cause they'd come to believe the killer had stolen it, which he had), and she said the person who talked to her ended the call with, "We'll get back to you" without explaining further why they were asking her about this. 

The second call came a few hours later, and it was her cousin-not an officer, a relative-having to take on the grim task of telling her that her family had been murdered. I don't think the person who called her about the car wound up calling her back, either. 

And all of this happened in the middle of the night. This poor woman's sister, her brother-in-law, her parents, and her young niece were all brutally murdered, and this is the way she finds out. I was sitting here thinking that sort of thing myself. "They couldn't have found a gentler (well, as gentle as one can get) way to deliver this news?" No way should anyone have to receive that kind of information alone in their home late at night like that. And it shouldn't fall to a relative who's also grieving to have to share that news. That's where the professionals are supposed to come in. 

1 hour ago, LuvMyShows said:

But the worst part to me, was something the detective told the family when he was assigned to the case.  As he was recounting this in his voice-over, he got tearful, and said that he told the family that he would take a personal interest in the case because his family lives near there (where the murder happened) and he wanted to make sure they were safe.  WTAF?  Boo hoo that you're worried about what might happen to your family, while this family is already dealing with the horrific death of a loved one.  So it's all about you?  That is such an incredibly insensitive thing to say to them.

Yeah, it's always interesting when cops try and use that sort of reasoning for why a case becomes so personal to them. It's like the officers who say, "I have a child that age, and if anything happened to them...". I get that they want to establish a connection, and I've no doubt that it would be very weird and tough to work a case where the victims share the similar age/looks/etc. of a loved one. 

But agreed, that "it's personal!" reaction shouldn't be one's main motivation for wanting to solve the case. Not only can it come off "all about me", as you note, but it can also lead to tunnel vision as they investigate the case, and risk them making the wrong assumptions and nabbing the wrong person or something of that sort. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Yes, I saw American Monster about Joshua Jenkins.  The 15 year-old boy who murdered his parents, grandparents and younger sister, for no real reason.  He claimed that he loved them, but, obviously was upset with them for sending him to a therapeutic boarding school.  He was on his best behavior before the family visit to the grandparents, no doubt to garner a weekend visit with his family.  His family admitted that he was violent, unpredictable, etc. I wonder why they made the choice to let him stay the weekend. They should have set up an alarm on his room. I'm never sure why families seem to think that their loved one would not really hurt them.  It happens all the time. 

  Although, he got such a long sentence, I wonder if he is going to get a reduced sentence now since the Supreme Court ruled that defendants who were under the age of 18 when their crime occurred, can not get the equivalent to life in prison without parole. So, he is likely to get out eventually. Scary thought.  Also, I suppose that he has never had any visitor, call, card, gift, etc. since he was arrested at age 15. (23 years ago)  His aunt has had no contact.  It didn't seem as if anyone else did either.  Can you imagine being locked up for all those years and not one single person on the planet cares or bothers to contact you?  Of course, he was indeed a monster. I'm not saying he deserved anything. I'm just curious how you live your live behind bars, growing up with that kind of knowledge.  Blows my mind.  I wonder if he is a model prisoner or still violent in prison. 

https://www.monstersandcritics.com/true-crime/joshua-jenkins-murdered-five-members-of-his-family/

[geekgirl921]

Did anyone see the crazy Twisted Sister with the "demon possession"??

[Annber03]

16 minutes ago, geekgirl921 said:

Did anyone see the crazy Twisted Sister with the "demon possession"??

YES. That was creepy. And incredibly sad. 

I was struck by the fact that on the night of the murder, Vivian's mom had left the house, despite knowing full well Vivian had announced earlier that day that she was going to kill her daughter. She was clearly concerned enough about this that she made a point of mentioning it to the person she was talking to on the phone...and yet, she still left the house that night. If my mom had announced she was going to kill me or my sister, no way would my grandma just up and leave us alone with her after that. No. Way. She'd be trying to get us out of that house, she'd try talking to my mom or get somebody else who was more equipped to try and talk her down to do so, something, anything like that. 

Course, had she stayed, it makes me wonder what might've happened to her, too, since Vivian claimed she was the cause of all the "evil" in the home. But still.

I also couldn't help noticing the irony that the girl's name was Charity, of all things. And the mention of the Frank Sinatra music playing made me think of the John List case, where the investigators heard classical music blaring when they entered that crime scene. Wonder if the officers could stand to hear Sinatra's music after that. 

@SunnyBeBe, I'd first heard that story on an episode of "Killer Kids" once. It's such a haunting, horrific story, and seeing the home videos of this family just made it all the creepier. If I were that poor woman, I don't know that I could even stand to ever look at those movies again. 

It doesn't surprise me that he's had no visitors. I think it'd be very hard to want to go see somebody who did something like that, yeah. I hope he continues to stay in jail for a good, long while (if nothing else, I could see his remaining relatives fighting like hell to keep him there at parole hearings), but if and when he does get out, hopefully somebody'll be keeping a close eye on him or something. 

[Jeeves]

6 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Watched the latest Extreme Measures ep, "Don't You Be My Neighbor".

So first of all, I hate it when the title gives something away.  From this title, we knew that any of the suspects who weren't a neighbor, could be eliminated.

Also, I was stunned that in New Mexico, you can't get a DNA test done on evidence until you have a suspect.  . . .

And this episode confirmed for me something I have wondered/worried about.  The police/detectives made an initial canvass of the neighbors but no one was there at one of the houses, so it fell through the cracks and they never did go back to talk to them.. . . 

But the worst part to me, was something the detective told the family when he was assigned to the case.  As he was recounting this in his voice-over, he got tearful, and said that he told the family that he would take a personal interest in the case because his family lives near there (where the murder happened) and he wanted to make sure they were safe.  WTAF?  Boo hoo that you're worried about what might happen to your family, while this family is already dealing with the horrific death of a loved one.  So it's all about you?  That is such an incredibly insensitive thing to say to them.

I watched that episode too. I was surprised when they said that in NM they wouldn't run DNA unless they had a suspect. But, that was in 1999. I believe the state's policy has changed on that, if you read the NMDPS website about testing DNA and running the results through CODIS. It looks like the state also has been clearing out an awful backlog of DNA testing rape kits. Those statements aren't consistent with a "wait till we have a named suspect" approach even if that used to be the policy.

As to sloppy work and self-centered attitudes toward policing? From what I've read, the Albuquerque PD isn't so great. In fact, it's under a US DOJ consent decree to clean up its act. That seems to be about brutality than generally bad police work - but IMO those things often go hand in hand. 

So it didn't surprise me that in the case profiled on the show, the victim's sister had to do the heavy lifting to get the case solved. What actually surprised me was that any member of the APD would show his face on the show.

(A few years ago I explored the possibilities of moving to a warmer climate. I ruled out Albuquerque for several reasons, but TBH the shoddy reputation of its police department didn't do the city any favors in my analysis.)

[SunnyBeBe]

So, Albuquerque PD has issues? Hmm....the first thing that comes to my mind is how they were portrayed on the fictional show Breaking Bad.  lol  Most of the focus was on the DEA though, where the lead character's BIL worked. 

I want to thank LoveMyShows for mentioning the show called The Case That Haunts Me.  I watched one episode and I really liked it.  Will definitely be following that one. 

[Jeeves]

14 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, Albuquerque PD has issues? Hmm....the first thing that comes to my mind is how they were portrayed on the fictional show Breaking Bad.  lol  Most of the focus was on the DEA though, where the lead character's BIL worked. 

I want to thank LoveMyShows for mentioning the show called The Case That Haunts Me.  I watched one episode and I really liked it.  Will definitely be following that one. 

Oh. That's funny. I never watched Breaking Bad.

[SunnyBeBe]

7 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Oh. That's funny. I never watched Breaking Bad.

OMG!!!!! All I can say is that it would be a VERY good thing to do for yourself. I'd start at Season One and go to the finale. It's my favorite show of all time.  I can't even describe how great it is. You can locate forums for it here on this site.  People are probably still posting about it, because, it's so good.  The absolute best writing on television EVER. AND, once you're done, you can check out Better Call Saul, which is a prequel.  New season starts next year. ALSO, awesome.  

Did anyone see the story last night about the murder of the Colorado Head of Dept of Corrections in his home?  This was so very sad.  The guy also murdered a guy delivering pizza so he could gain access to this man.  He was a former prisoner, who I think got out by mistake.  

[Brattinella]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Did anyone see the story last night about the murder of the Colorado Head of Dept of Corrections in his home?  This was so very sad.  The guy also murdered a guy delivering pizza so he could gain access to this man.  He was a former prisoner, who I think got out by mistake.  

This murderer was absolutely diabolical!  Murdering a totally innocent pizza guy to get his uniform!  If I ran the pizza joint, the first call to deliver to an intersection would be met with laughter.  The subsequent call to deliver to a truck stop would have me pretty sore.  I'd be suspicious anyhow, and I'd tell the guy NOPE; you are at a truck stop with food aplenty!

Yeah, this guy was harboring a serious grudge to go through all that to murder his target.  Glad he got stopped before he got the rest on his list!

[LuvMyShows]

12 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Did anyone see the story last night about the murder of the Colorado Head of Dept of Corrections in his home?  This was so very sad.  The guy also murdered a guy delivering pizza so he could gain access to this man.  He was a former prisoner, who I think got out by mistake.  

There was one thing that was weird about that whole thing.  When the perp was in the high speed chase and crashed into the truck, the on-board camera showed it.  And what we saw was the crash and then about a zillion cops all shooting their guns at the perp...but what was missing was any explanation as to why the cops were shooting at him.  He had just been in a major crash, so I doubt he had gotten out of the car and was just shooting at the cops.  So I wonder what was going on.

[Sile]

On 9/3/2019 at 1:48 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Also, I suppose that he has never had any visitor, call, card, gift, etc. since he was arrested at age 15. (23 years ago)  His aunt has had no contact.  It didn't seem as if anyone else did either. 

If you want visits, letters and gifts in prison, it's probably not wise to kill off your entire immediate family....

Reminds me of the joke about the guy who killed his parents asking the judge at his sentencing to have pity on a poor orphan.

[Jeeves]

8 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

There was one thing that was weird about that whole thing.  When the perp was in the high speed chase and crashed into the truck, the on-board camera showed it.  And what we saw was the crash and then about a zillion cops all shooting their guns at the perp...but what was missing was any explanation as to why the cops were shooting at him.  He had just been in a major crash, so I doubt he had gotten out of the car and was just shooting at the cops.  So I wonder what was going on.

He'd been shooting at them throughout the chase - which started when he shot a cop three times at the side of the road. Without getting out of the car. He fired every damn bullet from the driver's seat. IMO it would be supremely stupid for the cops at the wreck scene to assume he wasn't going to shoot any more. 

I watched that episode on DVR last night. I've lived in the Denver area for 40+ years.  I'm well aware of the Colorado state penitentiaries at Buena Vista and Canon City, as well as the federal prison at Florence. And that half the jobs in Fremont County stem from the "correctional industry." ("Correctional industry" sounds like a bunch of proofreaders and editors, doesn't it?) BTW, Canon City and Florence are in Fremont County. Buena Vista is not far away, but in Chaffee County. 

So far, this show is really reaching to tie murders to "Prison Valley." Unless you define "Prison Valley" to include most of the state of Colorado. 

Episode 1, the Tom Clements assassination. Absolutely tied to the Colorado prison system, so arguably relevant to "Prison Valley." But it didn't happen in Prison Valley. Monument, Colorado, where Tom Clements lived, and died, is a suburb of Colorado Springs, located in El Paso County and definitely not in Prison Valley. Like, an hour's drive from Canon City. And Ebel killed the poor pizza delivery guy up in the North side of Denver. Nowhere near "Prison Valley." I well remember the news coverage of those murders and the utterly screwed up violent killer. And I never once thought of them as any but Denver and Colorado Springs crimes, although the investigation of course revealed the roots of it all in prison.

I've looked at the online episode guide and this online regurgitation of the ID press release about the show. Damned few - if any - of the murders they mention took place in "Prison Valley." Diane Hood was gunned down in Colorado Springs (a memorable case of Lt. Joe Kenda, for those who watch his show.) Lea Porter was killed in Westminster, a suburb on the North side of the Denver area, nowhere near "Prison Valley." (There is a tie to Fremont County, though, so that one's at least in the ballpark.) Pam Candelaria was killed in Walsenburg, in SE Colorado, more than a hundred miles from "Prison Valley." 

These may be cases worth covering in an ID channel series, but the show sucks at geography.  

Edited September 5, 2019 by Jeeves

[funky-rat]

I'm sure we'll be seeing a show about this in the future.  And as an aside, what in the fresh hell does it take to get a restraining order some places?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/he-rapped-about-killing-and-burying-his-girlfriend-now-hes-charged-with-her-murder/ar-AAGQGIf?ocid=spartandhp

[geekgirl921]

On 9/3/2019 at 3:42 PM, Annber03 said:

YES. That was creepy. And incredibly sad. 

I was struck by the fact that on the night of the murder, Vivian's mom had left the house, despite knowing full well Vivian had announced earlier that day that she was going to kill her daughter. She was clearly concerned enough about this that she made a point of mentioning it to the person she was talking to on the phone...and yet, she still left the house that night. If my mom had announced she was going to kill me or my sister, no way would my grandma just up and leave us alone with her after that. No. Way. She'd be trying to get us out of that house, she'd try talking to my mom or get somebody else who was more equipped to try and talk her down to do so, something, anything like that. 

Course, had she stayed, it makes me wonder what might've happened to her, too, since Vivian claimed she was the cause of all the "evil" in the home. But still.

I also couldn't help noticing the irony that the girl's name was Charity, of all things. And the mention of the Frank Sinatra music playing made me think of the John List case, where the investigators heard classical music blaring when they entered that crime scene. Wonder if the officers could stand to hear Sinatra's music after that. 

@SunnyBeBe, I'd first heard that story on an episode of "Killer Kids" once. It's such a haunting, horrific story, and seeing the home videos of this family just made it all the creepier. If I were that poor woman, I don't know that I could even stand to ever look at those movies again. 

It doesn't surprise me that he's had no visitors. I think it'd be very hard to want to go see somebody who did something like that, yeah. I hope he continues to stay in jail for a good, long while (if nothing else, I could see his remaining relatives fighting like hell to keep him there at parole hearings), but if and when he does get out, hopefully somebody'll be keeping a close eye on him or something. 

Yeah, I also thought it was weird that Grandma apparently went to stay with the son. Did she not tell him what was happening? Did he do anything? It certainly sounds like there were at least family who had some idea what was happening but did nothing!

[SunnyBeBe]

It's not that I don't have sympathy for murder victims, but, come on....sometimes, the way some of these people are portrayed really makes me wonder.  Like this one woman who was murdered in Shreveport, LA, right after her ex-boyfriend made her do a live apology for dissing his new girlfriend on FB.  The guy was wrong alright, but, it seemed like she enjoyed pushing his buttons.  To start off with, she brings a convicted, violent felon into her home where she has THREE little kids!  And, her language was so foul, that she kept getting banned from FB.  Yet, all along, her family members keep bragging on what a great mom she is. And, talking about how she made so much money doing home decorating......WHAT?  No way that was happening, based on what we saw.  I hate the woman was murdered, but, it was like you could have seen that coming a mile away.  

[LuvMyShows]

-----------trying to quote SunnyBeBe, but can't get it to work for some reason.------------

"It's not that I don't have sympathy for murder victims, but, come on....sometimes, the way some of these people are portrayed really makes me wonder.  Like this one woman who was murdered in Shreveport, LA, right after her ex-boyfriend made her do a live apology for dissing his new girlfriend on FB.  The guy was wrong alright, but, it seemed like she enjoyed pushing his buttons.  To start off with, she brings a convicted, violent felon into her home where she has THREE little kids!  And, her language was so foul, that she kept getting banned from FB.  Yet, all along, her family members keep bragging on what a great mom she is. And, talking about how she made so much money doing home decorating......WHAT?  No way that was happening, based on what we saw.  I hate the woman was murdered, but, it was like you could have seen that coming a mile away."

I saw that show too, and felt something similar and wanted to post, but just wasn't sure what to say.  What I cannot understand, at all, is carrying on a public feud on social media where you post videos of yourself saying terrible horrible things about someone.  I simply don't get it.  And I too wondered about the home decorating, especially with the sums of money that they were implying she could get and how in-demand she was.  However, it sure is suspect, given that these are the same people who were bragging about how great a mom she was.

[SunnyBeBe]

They portrayed that the ex had previously given her and her kids very expensive gifts...yeah, from a convicted felon?  What kind of job did he have to make that kind of money? And her family described her as awesome, because she would kick a*# if anyone looked at her wrong.  This was a successful business woman??? No reputable citizen would have trusted her inside their home, imo. Still sad...3 little motherless kids.

[Andyourlittledog2]

These ID special series events are just ridiculous. I've been suckered into watching a couple of them and now I just roll my eyes and say no thank you. They gather together unrelated crimes and postulate some grand scheme  that is never proven and usually there is some law officer or someone who can't let it go and is the driving force in the show. One show that was a policewoman who was interested in solving several probably unrelated murders from a decade or two previously and they spent like four hours following this nitwit around while she visited crime scenes and explained discounted suspects and theories. My favorite is when she got a tip that there was a piece of board laying in a pasture and that maybe it had a body under it (ten to twenty years since the murder) and we had to follow her as she climbed over the fence and walked to the other side of the pasture, lifted the board, scuffed the dirt, and declared nothing there. Riveting television. These special three and four hour series remind me of that Al Capone's vault special in the nineties where Geraldo Rivera made a big two hour hoopla and then they opened the vault to nothing. A big fat nothing. That's these shows. I refuse to get sucked into the Prison Valley one since, as explained above and just like I thought, it's bullshit. Individual crimes that may be interesting, but no grand scheme relating them.

[LuvMyShows]

10 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

They portrayed that the ex had previously given her and her kids very expensive gifts...yeah, from a convicted felon?  What kind of job did he have to make that kind of money? 

So this reminds me of my big 3, of warning signs about men that women always overlook in these cases (I'm not including regular/obvious things, like violence, anger, etc.):

• Frequent lavish gifts - this is equated with generosity, but more often that not, it's about insecurity...and even when the guy has no job, is broke, or clearly can't afford it, so many of them just go right on happily accepting the gifts
• Job situation is unclear - and more baffling to me, it's sometimes not even because the guy is reluctant to discuss it...it's because the woman just doesn't delve into it at all
• Need to stay in constant contact throughout the day and night - this is equated with a demonstration of how much he cares...but in ALL cases, it's about a need for control, and.it.will.end.badly

[Jeeves]

8 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

These ID special series events are just ridiculous. I've been suckered into watching a couple of them and now I just roll my eyes and say no thank you. They gather together unrelated crimes and postulate some grand scheme  that is never proven and usually there is some law officer or someone who can't let it go and is the driving force in the show.  . . .  I refuse to get sucked into the Prison Valley one since, as explained above and just like I thought, it's bullshit. Individual crimes that may be interesting, but no grand scheme relating them.

Well said!

It did occur to me that what ties those crimes to "Prison Valley" is that the killers either were in prison there, or ended up in prison there after arrest, trial, and conviction. 

Because, seriously, the murder of Dianne Hood was totally centered in Colorado Springs. Nobody involved had a criminal record or had done time. She was a nice young wife and mother whose devout clean-cut Christian husband was screwing the wife of an Army officer stationed at one of the area's military bases. Husband convinced his lover to kill his wife. He even skated by being convicted of a lesser charge, while lover was convicted of first degree murder. Husband and lover wound up in Prison Valley. They're no longer there. Husband was recently paroled. Lover died of cancer.

[SunnyBeBe]

Good points LuvMyShows.  Also, a red flag in these dangerous relationships seems to be when the person has had multiple restraining orders from other people.  For some reason, they think they will magically be the one that he doesn't get threatening with. 

[BigBlueMastiff]

6 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

So this reminds me of my big 3, of warning signs about men that women always overlook in these cases (I'm not including regular/obvious things, like violence, anger, etc.):

• Frequent lavish gifts - this is equated with generosity, but more often that not, it's about insecurity...and even when the guy has no job, is broke, or clearly can't afford it, so many of them just go right on happily accepting the gifts
• Job situation is unclear - and more baffling to me, it's sometimes not even because the guy is reluctant to discuss it...it's because the woman just doesn't delve into it at all
• Need to stay in constant contact throughout the day and night - this is equated with a demonstration of how much he cares...but in ALL cases, it's about a need for control, and.it.will.end.badly

Let me add to this-no job/or job involves illegal activity, why would anyone date someone in this situation. Also, frequent infidelity, multiple partners, and in some cases those partners have died or disappeared under mysterious circumstances, run away ladies.

[funky-rat]

Any kind of infidelity is a red flag for me.  If they cheated once, they will almost assuredly cheat again.  If he/she is leaving their wife/husabnd for you, rest assured, someone else will come along soon enough.....

A friend of my husband split with her husband.  I told her I was sorry, and she said "It wasn't the first time....or second....or third.....maybe more".  Once the scope of how bad it was came out, she booted his butt, and I was very proud of her.

[Annber03]

32 minutes ago, BigBlueMastiff said:

Let me add to this-no job/or job involves illegal activity, why would anyone date someone in this situation. 

That reminds me of the guys who will brag about how they were part of the military and were involved in all these dangerous and/or covert missions, and use that to try and impress the woman. Then shocker of shockers, you find out they were exaggerating or flat out lying about all of it. It amazes me how women don't see that as a massive red flag. First off, if the missions were covert, then that's not information they're supposed to be freely sharing with just anyone, 'cause, y'know, national security and all.

Second, most people who served in the military don't go around bragging about their service. Partly because they find it unseemly and disrespectful, partly because, if they were involved in dangerous and traumatic combat, it's not something they'd naturally want to relive unless absolutely necessary. So if a guy is out there bragging and eagerly going into disturbingly great detail about some of the horrible things they did in the military, if they did serve, that's a sign they've gotten way too invested in the killing and violence. Either that, or they were in the military but didn't see actual combat, yet felt the need to try and make their job sound more dangerous than it actually was. Both options are deeply concerning. 

And if they weren't actually in the military at all, which often turns out to be the case with a lot of these kinds of guys, then we've got a guy who sees nothing wrong with a) lying about military service, which I believe is a serious crime, and b) lying about committing awful acts of violence, and who thinks bragging about that stuff makes them some kind of cool, macho badass. That's horrifying on a whole other level. 

But yeah. Just...women need to be very careful in general of guys who think violence=tough guy is somehow a good thing. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Annber03

[Andyourlittledog2]

Quote

I can't make the quote thingy disappear. Sorry

If there's anything I've learned from court tv shows, it's avoid guys who would get a great job if they could just get their driver's license back but they owe child support so since you've been a hot item for about one week be a good girlfriend and pay the back child support for him and oh by the way there are some parking fines and speeding tickets too so could you pay them too that's great now he can get his license but his car broke down so could you be a babe and pay for a rental car just until he can save some money to buy a car, that's a good girl... Oops. Cell phone!  He has to have a cell  phone for all those prospective employers to call him so be sure to put him on your plan.  Some women just amaze me.

What I used to say when I was young and dating was don't date the ex-axe murderer because he may be a great guy now, all teddy bear and reformed and stuff, but one day you are likely going to wake up in bed next to an axe murderer all unreformed and stuff. (We belonged to a church/cult where people who had very bad pasts were now 'saved' and good now.  Which is great but I wasn't taking any chances. Just because he's nice to you now doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. Also, if he treats his ex like shit he'll treat you like shit too when the bloom is off the rose of the relationship. So many of these crimes are committed against women who ignored the past of the man they took up with and were shocked when he turned against them too. If he's someone else's bad ex, he could be your nightmare next. 

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

If there's anything I've learned from court tv shows, it's avoid guys who would get a great job if they could just get their driver's license back but they owe child support so since you've been a hot item for about one week be a good girlfriend and pay the back child support for him and oh by the way there are some parking fines and speeding tickets too so could you pay them too that's great now he can get his license but his car broke down so could you be a babe and pay for a rental car just until he can save some money to buy a car, that's a good girl... Oops. Cell phone!  He has to have a cell  phone for all those prospective employers to call him so be sure to put him on your plan.  Some women just amaze me.

I'm dying at how accurate this is :D. 

Quote

We belonged to a church/cult where people who had very bad pasts were now 'saved' and good now.  Which is great but I wasn't taking any chances. Just because he's nice to you now doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. 

Yeeeeeeah, we've seen quite a few guys like that, too, on these shows. More often than not, these people aren't interested in actual redemption. It's their way of excusing and justifying any shitty behavior they did or will commit ("I found God, so that absolves me of any responsibility!"). 

Quote

Also, if he treats his ex like shit he'll treat you like shit too when the bloom is off the rose of the relationship. So many of these crimes are committed against women who ignored the past of the man they took up with and were shocked when he turned against them too. If he's someone else's bad ex, he could be your nightmare next. 

Yep. Pay very close attention to how somebody talks about their exes. Even if the last woman a guy dated was actually a horrible person who treated him like crap, there's a mature way to discuss that if necessary, and a bad way. And if the guy takes his bad relationship with a woman as "proof" that all women are secretly evil, horrible people or whatever, that's definitely the time to run. 

[nokat]

In my experience, being a decent person can make you a target. I watch these shows where decent people got murdered for being nice and trusting. It makes me sad.
 

[Andyourlittledog2]

It's the glow. They all 'glow' and 'light up a room' and are just 'so alive'. The kiss of death, I tell you.  All the descriptions of the victims follow that pattern.  Apparently they are too glowy and room-lightening to remain alive. Attracts killers like a porch light attracts moths.

[nokat]

5 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

It's the glow. They all 'glow' and 'light up a room' and are just 'so alive'. The kiss of death, I tell you.  All the descriptions of the victims follow that pattern.  Apparently they are too glowy and room-lightening to remain alive. Attracts killers like a porch light attracts moths.

They probably lived in a beautiful small town too.