S01.E23: Fast Enough

[blugirlami21]

 

You know, I think you're right here, and maybe that's part of the problem? Not you being right - this portrayal of Barry. Because Barry probably shouldn't be this sheltered and naive - his dad is in jail, he grew up with a cop, he's in his early 20s, he's friends of a sort with Oliver Queen, he's spent the last year battling impossible things, and he works in a forensics department. Both Arrow and Flash established that Barry's been investigating murders and strange phenomena for years.  And he's shown himself to be pretty perceptive and aware in other episodes.  So this is creating a bit of a disconnect for me.

 

I think Barry was probably sheltered by Joe like Iris was and I also think that Barry's dad sheltered him as well.  He's possibly the most upbeat prisoner I have seen on a tv show and I can imagine that he made light of what prison was really like for him,  Barry works with his father and he almost always listens to what Joe tells him is right and wrong.  He may be friends with Oliver but I think he has blinders there as well.  Judging from his interactions with Oliver so far I would say he sees Oliver as a big brother/mentor.  He may not always agree with his methods but he sees the Arrow/Oliver as someone to aspire to.

 

For me there have been moments throughout the season where Barry has been too trusting or foolhardy or not as smart as purported.  I actually like those moments.  Barry isn't perfect, he makes a lot of mistakes, he doubts himself all the time, he doesn't always get it right the first time around.  Maybe this will be a learning experience for the coming seasons.

 

I don't think it would have mattered what the stakes were to save his mother.  If there was the smallest chance that he could do it and succeed at it, I think he would always attempt it until he knew for sure that her death was for the best.  This seems to be a character flaw consistent with his comic book counterpart.  I think it would be nice if he could make the big personal sacrifice but I don't think he's that kind of hero yet.  I mean let's face it he's only been a superhero for about a year or so and I think it's still hard for him to think about the big picture when the people he loves are involved.

 

I do agree that the reason that he had to go back in time to save his mother should have been a little more urgent.  But I'm ultimately satisfied with how the episode went down.  I think it was important for Barry as a man and as a superhero to not save his mom.  That was a huge sacrifice for him and I hope it affects him next season.

[ruby24]

I think Barry was probably sheltered by Joe like Iris was and I also think that Barry's dad sheltered him as well.  He's possibly the most upbeat prisoner I have seen on a tv show and I can imagine that he made light of what prison was really like for him,  Barry works with his father and he

I know, poor Henry Allen, lol. I feel the most sorry for him, because I can't imagine that the show will ever get him out pf prison. Maybe in the series finale. But the Barry/Joe relationship is way too important to the writers, there's no way that's going away for Barry and his dad. And it really sucks for him to be stuck in prison for life for something he didn't do, at all. He's remarkably okay about it, considering.

[FurryFury]

They really should kill one of his dads. I actually vote Joe. Maybe it would force Barry to grow up and let Iris be more proactive. And really, I'm tired of this character. There's been way too much of him.

[patchwork]

I'm probably giving the writers too much credit here but maybe Barry trusting his own instincts and ideas is being set up for season 2? 

 

During this season Wells became Barry's third father figure, mentoring him in the ways of the speed force and being a hero all to serve his own needs. Barry seriously mucked up working with the villain. Then he goes around getting everyone's opinion on what he should do regarding his mother and in the end defers to his future self on whether or not to save save her. That's a lot of waffling, self doubt and screwing up to put in the final two episodes of a season. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by patchwork

[chelsie]

Iris isn't as naive as Barry tho. Iris has been shown to be observant and inquisitive etc. while joe may have been overprotective, iris was not raised a fool and it shows; the lie aside, you'd have to get up pretty early to fool her.

It's the whole genetics/environment debate.

Joe taught them both self defence but Barry could not get the hang of it...

I like Barry he does seem a good kid.

y is not a fool but he is naive. All of the nerds on the show are naive (with the possible exception of cisco)

[driedfruit]

They really should kill one of his dads. I actually vote Joe. Maybe it would force Barry to grow up and let Iris be more proactive. And really, I'm tired of this character. There's been way too much of him.

 

There's way too much father-son stuff, and it's not my favorite type of dynamic to begin with. 

 

I like the actor for Joe but I find him and Barry at their most annoying when they're together--also at their most nonsensical. It's a pity he rarely gets scenes with his daughter as those rare instances are always his best and most interesting, and ripe to explore, while the bro thing he has going with Barry has gone stale. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by driedfruit

[LilJen]

Nobody else is expecting a massive hand-wave "it all never happened" after Barry inevitably fixes the giant quantum singularity?? And everything will be back to how it was? Anyone? Bueller?

[Glory]

, where someone noticed the handsome corpse and decided to either revive him or clone him, keeping the Eobard timeline possibility alive.  Granted, Eobard/Wells dematerializing in the present kind of puts a damper on both theories...

I'm kind of dying at the idea of someone going, "Man, that is one good looking corpse! Let's clone it!" It's early in the morning and tickling my funny bone. Bravo. 

 

Off to fanfiction I go! I feel like this has crack!fic all of it! 

[Latverian Diplomat]

I'm probably giving the writers too much credit here but maybe Barry trusting his own instincts and ideas is being set up for season 2? 

 

During this season Wells became Barry's third father figure, mentoring him in the ways of the speed force and being a hero all to serve his own needs. 

Technically, he trusted his future self, not his own instincts. Future Flash is his 4th father figure! :-)

[KirkB]

Wait, isn't his future self HIM? So wouldn't he, in fact, BE trusting his own instincts?

 

Seriously though, the singularity not only (presumably) sets up Legends it could also act as a deus ex machina for anything they want to undo or change about the season. 

[Trini]

Seriously though, the singularity not only (presumably) sets up Legends it could also act as a deus ex machina for anything they want to undo or change about the season. 

 

Pretty much. That's why it's hard for me to speculate -- they could literally do anything, with or without consequences.  #timetravelheadaches

[JTMacc99]

Nobody else is expecting a massive hand-wave "it all never happened" after Barry inevitably fixes the giant quantum singularity?? And everything will be back to how it was? Anyone? Bueller?

I mentioned it earlier.  I don't thing a massive hand-wave is in our future, but I can't imagine that they won't use the opportunity to tinker with what seemed like it happened in this episode and what the show needed to happen to keep it interesting.

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

I can't imagine that they won't use the opportunity to tinker with what seemed like it happened in this episode and what the show needed to happen to keep it interesting.

If the show goes that way then they've already set it up so that both Barry and Cisco will be the only ones who truly know what has occurred in the previous timeline.

 

That would likely lead to a couple of things: less reliance on anyone else in the cast as being correct and trusting their own instincts. So, Joe and maybe even Barry's dad (if he's still alive in this timeline) wouldn't be reliable. And, if the Real Harrison Wells is on the show then he'd still have a use to the Flash and to Cisco. Like Barry's dad and Joe, Wells would still have use for what they know. But, if they made bad, unreliable suggestions which Barry and Cisco know would have bad consequences, they could ignore that advice.

 

That's assuming the writers have really considered what they set up in the finale. Of course, what happens in the season premier could twist all of that around and maybe Cisco or Barry won't remember the previous timeline.

[ottoDbusdriver]

If the show goes that way then they've already set it up so that both Barry and Cisco will be the only ones who truly know what has occurred in the previous timeline.

 

I just don't want Oliver showing up every other episode 'splaining that he screwed up and now Felicity is dead, and asks Barry to zip back in time to fix it.  Because that would get old quickly.

[MDKNIGHT]

I liked it but like somebody upthread said "Why on earth would the Flash Mob allow RF to use a time machine to do God knows what? And actually not just allow him to use one, but actually build it for him, apparently correctly, even solving a problem for him that he didn't anticipate? Yes, RF says that he plans to go back to his own time. How can you believe him?"

I was hoping I'd missed something as to why they built the time machine for RF but haven't seen anything addressed here. Even IF RF "just wanted to go home" SO WHAT? He's a murderer. Why would they LET him go home? So he can ruin the lives of people in the future? So he can murder their decendents? Really what POSSIBLE motivation did they have? It isn't even like he sold them on his HAVING to go home to balance the mass in the wormhole which is ridiculous nonsense science but given some of the stuff on the show they could have slid by. Other things they have to hand wave include how do you aim your time travel to get where you need to go?

Regarding the vasectomy - OK there is no such thing as time travel and I'm pretty sure there never will be in the "time machine" sense AND because this is comic book science the writers can choose to make it work any way they want BUT IF time travel functioned in a logical way WHEN Eddie got the vasectomy , so long as it was before he got the woman pregnant WOULD NOT MATTER. In theory RF could murder Barry, Eddie could go to the doctor minutes days weeks months years later it would not matter and get a vasectomy. As long as there were no frozen sperm for somebody to steel and his vasectomy wasn't reversed then the fact that he got a vasectomy and didn't have children would mean that RF would go poof and everything RF did would not have happened. Now unlike what we saw here Barry wouldn't be the Flash unless something other than RF made him the Flash but he would be alive and there would be a totally different timeline. There should be a different timeline now but because they obviously want to continue making the show they can't acknowledge that.

[AudienceofOne]

Frankly I would have preferred magic wands over what passed for science in this episode. That was completely ridiculous from beginning to end. But especially at the end.

 

Can anybody explain to me why this timeline still exists when Thawne was never born?

[slayer2]

 

They really should kill one of his dads. I actually vote Joe. Maybe it would force Barry to grow up and let Iris be more proactive. And really, I'm tired of this character. There's been way too much of him.

 

Nope. No thanks. No way in hell. Well maybe in hell but I like to think that I'm not there thanks so much and furthermore, the next time you want to put something so horrifying in the ether please send liquor.

 

I liked the episode, I'm excited for season 2, sad about Eddie but what a guy. Good job cast and crew I can see why GG why so choked up about it. I am happy.

 

ETA HAWKGIRL sighting!!!! I am so down for Legends of Tomorrow. TV is finally gettng good again!!!

Edited May 22, 2015 by slayer2

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

Can anybody explain to me why this timeline still exists when Thawne was never born?

Oh, the science is wacky. There's no doubt about that. And, I don't know a lot about physics or quantum bananas.

 

The reason why I got the notion in my head that Barry's dad got killed in the "new past" is because I thought this timeline was really that different.

 

I do think that one of the key points is that episode[s from March 17th and 24th where Flash goes back in time and then reverses what happened to everyone just a short time before that tidal wave almost struck Central City. In that timeline, a lot of bad stuff happened and then by the next episode didn't happen.

 

Instead of Cisco getting killed by Harrithawne, the changed timeline found that Harrithawne killed that reporter who was going to publish a story about Wells killing Simon Stagg. In the first timeline, that same reporter also told Iris about Wells. Iris also found out Barry loved her/ vice versa and that he's the Flash. Afterwards, it took a while for Iris to learn either thing.

 

Then there's Joe getting taken hostage and the tidal wave. Neither of those things happened in the new timeline. However, when Harrithawne checked with that computer Gideon to see if the "future" changed, the computer said, "Nope. It's all good, boss!" Obviously, something changed. What didn't change is that Barry still became the Flash and went missing in the future, according to the newspaper they showed.

 

So, Barry changed the timeline then. Then when Eddie offed himself and Harrithawne vanished...okay, I got it. Harrithawne just vanished but he didn't cease to exist. Instead he ceased to exist doing what he was doing at that point in time. Why?

 

To go off the deep end of conspiracy, I bet Eddie hooked up with Barry's then girlfriend, got her pregnant and THAT changed EVERYTHING! Now, Eobard is in the future going, "Nuts! I'll get back at you Flash, if it is the last thing I do!" Nine months from now when Eddie Junior is born, Eobard will show back up!

j/k

 

(I have no idea what the answers are but I will say rewatch the episodes from March 17 and 24. Everything that got reversed and flipped around, like a sign spinner spinning a sign is shown to us)

Edited May 22, 2015 by Hobo.PassingThru

[Whodunnit]

Fanwanking:

Barry is not the man of steel, and thus cannot move at Mach 3, though he must have skin like aluminum to move as fast as a commercial jet.

[AudienceofOne]

Harrithawne just vanished but he didn't cease to exist.

 

 

Of course he ceased to exist - he was never born. If he was never born then he never went back in time, never killed Barry's Mum, never took over Wells' body and never built the particle accelerator (earlier than Wells otherwise would have). So the entire timeline should have ceased to exist and reverted to the original non-Wells version (Barry grew up with Mum and Dad, the real Wells built the accelerator later etc etc). They made a BIG DEAL on how Barry going back to save his Mum would cause that entire TL to be erased and then when something much much bigger than that happened... pfft. Nothing.

 

And don't even get me started on a partical accelerator causing a singularity so massive it could suck in the Earth that nonetheless had no time dilation effects and that Barry could apparently run into. It's beyond stupid.

Science from the people who brought you "running really fast creates a wormhole you can navigate with your feelings".

[BkWurm1]

I have a more thoughtful post about the episode in whole but first, a time paradox rant.   I have to get it out. 

 

Eddie killing himself is just about a text book case of the Grandfather Paradox but I can explain away the problem if it was how could Eobard still be alive if Eddie was dead but I can’t explain how can Barry and everyone else remain the same if Eobade never existed. 

 

The first scenario is simple enough, Eobard existed to come back within his universal timeline so if Eddie died in the new timeline, that creates a new parallel timeline but the original timeline that Eobard would have come from would still exist, just as a separate parallel universe. 

 

But that’s not what the show is selling.  It’s saying that Eddie kills himself and going forward Eobard never exists but somehow he used to exist but Eddie is dead thus Eobard could never have ever come back in the first place and killed Barry’s mom and therefore wouldn’t have been fighting Barry in that moment thus Eddie would not have killed himself THUS Eobard would exist and would come back and kill Barry’s mother thus leading to Barry and notWells fighting making Eddie decide he had to kill himself  thus making Eobard not exist thus taking away Eddie’s reason to kill himself thus making it so Eobard does exist times infinity.  An infinite loop. 

 

 

As long as Eddie was alive, it preserved the timeline but if Eddie dying makes Eobard vanish, it should have undone EVERYTHING that notWells did, not just what was going forward because Eobard’s whole existence was from the future even when he was in the past and if they don’t accept that the Grandfather Paradox is solved by a parallel universe theory (which would, preserve the first future thus allowing him to travel back in the first place) then they can’t keep the changes he made!!   If he wasn’t in the future, he’s never in the past, any of it.  They can’t have it both ways!!

Edited May 22, 2015 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

I have mixed feelings about the finale.  On one hand, I enjoyed it.  I felt most everyone’s emotions.  I adored Victor Garber’s conversation with Eddie. I cried with Barry when he didn’t save his mother but was able to be there so she didn’t die alone.   I felt real regret from Wells about Cisco also being affected by the particle accelerator’s explosion (hilarious that he figures he had a perfectly good reason for killing him, ha!)

 

I was touched by Iris saying screw destiny and reinvesting herself in her relationship with Eddie and in the moment I believed it (by not within the season).  I got weepy over Barry’s conversation with both his dads and was happy that Caitlin finally got her wedding day (even if I’m iffy on the paperwork).

 

I was also completely thrown by Eddie sacrificing himself (and then mad at myself for not seeing it coming) and I felt his loss right away and at the same time felt how satisfied Eddie was knowing that he was actually the savior.  It was a big moment and it felt like one. Also, if you are going to end on a cliffhanger, a black whole threatening to destroy the world really ranks right up there.

 

BUT!

 

For a finale, the pace of the episode was very odd.  Too much of Barry’s Should I /Shouldn’t I about saving his mom felt like filler and that should never happen in a finale.  I couldn’t believe how long it took him to decide to go back. And when he FINALLY did, we STILL had to wait for them to build a time machine, find out actually how to use the wormhole from notWells and discuss the risk of destroying the galaxy with a blackhole.  It being a possibility really should have been the moment they decided, NOPE, sorry mom. 

 

And Ronnie and Caitlyn, earlier in the season, I think they sold how much she loved him but they dropped the ball on her storyline since his last appearance and as far as I was concerned, Caitlyn was over him and had moved on.  She said as much!  I just didn’t feel the emotional connection anymore.  There was no urgency other than, yup, yeah, eh I’m no longer worried about the very reason I went in hiding leaving you behind again - this time on purpose, but hey, I’m back and need a place to crash and a verbal contract is a verbal contract  so why don’t we get married?  I suddenly understood the complaints about Robbie Amell’s emoting.   

 

I half felt the wedding happened ‘cause Caitlyn still had the dress taking up space in her closet.  And couldn’t the rest of the guests dress up?  And why did Barry look disgruntled during her wedding???  (I rewound thinking maybe he was sad about Iris and Eddie but I didn’t see anything between them that would trigger Barry being moody)   I just didn’t understand or feel the emotions there and I really wanted to.  It didn’t help that I wasn’t sure if the wedding would stick after Barry did his thing.  Again, it felt like filler and that is a mistake.

 

Then there is Eddie’s sacrifice.  It’s not that same as Tommy on Arrow but it was the very first thing I thought of when he died.  It’s different but it hits a lot of the same emotional beats and like with Laurel and Oliver, Eddie’s death will always stand between Iris and Barry and there will always be the question of what if and with who would Iris really rather have been?

 

 
Eddie died to save Iris, the woman he loved and his sacrifice was even greater than Tommy’s because Tommy was risking his life when he died, Eddie GAVE his life.  It’s so much bigger.   And why did he have to?  Because Barry had an enemy.  Oliver and Laurel also had to deal with his secret and their emotional betrayal of Tommy but any relationship between Iris and Barry has to be haunted by Eddie and that takes away a great deal of the shine IMO from any future Barry/Iris romance.

 

Barry is the consolation prize. 

 

I like the show and would have called it a solid characterization episode if it was not the finale but instead I got a underwhelmed feeling.  I suppose my expectations were too high.  I thought they were going to go for it and have Barry save his mom and then come back to the consequences (which I was really looking forward to seeing) and then in a race against time and singularities, try to go back and fix it.  Yes it would be just like the comics but it was an effective storyline and instead we go all the build up but no pay off. 

 

I still feel all growly about the inconsistency in their time travel rules but in the long run, a kind of meh finale isn't going to affect my viewing habits.  I like the show and the characters and also am already invested in the upcoming LoT (not to mention still a big Arrow fan) so yeah, I know where I'll be come Tuesday nights next fall.  Thanks teaser guys for assuring us that the world does not get consumed by a quantum singularity (And really, why did Caitlyn have to ask what it was?  If you thought the audience was unaware but really felt Caitlyn needed the line, why couldn't she have said, "A singularity?  As in a blackhole?"  See!  Question asked and answered and no one needlessly looks stupid!!)

[Trini]

Re-watch thoughts:

 

Can we keep Victor Garber? Please?

 

Barry conversation with Henry at prison; aren't those conversations recorded and/or monitored? Do the prison employees know Barry is the Flash too?

 

Right before his conversation with Iris, Barry is doing the iconic "lookout over the city" pose similar to Superman and Batman art.

 

 

... Eddie’s death will always stand between Iris and Barry and there will always be the question of what if and with who would Iris really rather have been?

 

...Barry is the consolation prize.

 

Maybe; but I feel they'll just have Barry do something even more more heroic to "top" Eddie's actions.

I didn't mind the wedding, but I worry about what they're setting up, because Robbie Amell doesn't seem to be officially in the cast of this or Legends.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Trini

[ruby24]

 

Then there is Eddie’s sacrifice.  It’s not that same as Tommy on Arrow but it was the very first thing I thought of when he died.  It’s different but it hits a lot of the same emotional beats and like with Laurel and Oliver, Eddie’s death will always stand between Iris and Barry and there will always be the question of what if and with who would Iris really rather have been?

 

 

Eddie died to save Iris, the woman he loved and his sacrifice was even greater than Tommy’s because Tommy was risking his life when he died, Eddie GAVE his life.  It’s so much bigger.   And why did he have to?  Because Barry had an enemy.  Oliver and Laurel also had to deal with his secret and their emotional betrayal of Tommy but any relationship between Iris and Barry has to be haunted by Eddie and that takes away a great deal of the shine IMO from any future Barry/Iris romance.

 

Barry is the consolation prize. 

I think the big sacrifice just sets things up to be delayed, not ended. People can love more than one person, and they're also allowed to move on after death, obviously.

 

As long as Iris grieves for an "appropriate" amount of time, I'm sure they'll set it up to them to get together in a way that makes it seem Barry's not second choice. And also, it's not like the stuff Eddie said to her in the episode before this one wasn't true- about the three people in the relationship. He just decided to say screw it (conveniently he makes his most significant speech right before his death).

 

They just wanted to end the triangle while keeping a reason to delay the Barry/Iris pairing as long as they can.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

... Eddie’s death will always stand between Iris and Barry and there will always be the question of what if and with who would Iris really rather have been?

...Barry is the consolation prize.

 

Maybe; but I feel they'll just have Barry do something even more more heroic to "top" Eddie's actions.

 

 

I am in no way trying to diminish Eddie's sacrifice - at all - but racing up into the heart of a singularity (black hole) to try and stop or unravel it, thus saving CC and possibly a lot more (ie, the country and maybe the entire planet);  IDK, that seems kind of like a pretty big heroic choice and action, by Barry, to me. 

 

(...... if one is willing to forget that it was Barry's decision and actions that are the reason the singularity happened in the first place)

Edited May 22, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[driedfruit]

Why should Eddie stand between Iris and Barry in the longterm? Iris and Eddie's relationship never had much to do with Barry--Iris never let it. If anything, Joe was the real third person. 

 

For a finale, the pace of the episode was very odd.  Too much of Barry’s Should I /Shouldn’t I about saving his mom felt like filler and that should never happen in a finale.  I couldn’t believe how long it took him to decide to go back. And when he FINALLY did, we STILL had to wait for them to build a time machine, find out actually how to use the wormhole from notWells and discuss the risk of destroying the galaxy with a blackhole.  It being a possibility really should have been the moment they decided, NOPE, sorry mom.

 

 

A lot of this would've been better placed in the penultimate episode, ending with Barry's decision. But pacing has been off all season, and going into the next one, I hope they find a better balance, maybe cut down on the filler and the pointless crossovers.   

Edited May 22, 2015 by driedfruit

[ottoDbusdriver]

Barry conversation with Henry at prison; aren't those conversations recorded and/or monitored? Do the prison employees know Barry is the Flash too?

 

Everyone at the prison probably already knew any way. </snark>

 

But seriously, yeah those conversation are monitoring and recorded -- which surprised me that Barry and his Dad weren't talking in code or something like that. I'm surprised that recording hasn't been leaked to the DCU Internet yet so the rest of the world knows, in addition to Eiling and Snart and Malcolm Merlyn, most likely ARGUS, Ray Palmer, Diggle and Lyla, Laurel, Nyssa probably knows by now too.  So, Eobard saying that he didn't know The Flash's name until WAAAAAY into the future just seems so lame.

 

Isn't Barry's Dad supposed to be in Iron Heights prison, which is apparently now located on the outskirts of Central City -- I thought it was out in the middle of nowhere approx. half way between Starling City and Central City

[Sakura12]

Eobard said that Barry became the Flash much later in the original time line, he advanced the time table. Maybe Barry was smarter and better at keeping his secret when he was few years older. 

[VCRTracking]

Besides the movie *blank because I don't want to spoil it for people*, Eddie's sacrifice reminded me Inception because Stein unintentionally put the idea in Eddie's head earlier like but without having to go into his dreams!

Edited May 22, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Trini]

I know Hawkgirl was there, but if they need someone to fly and catch Flash, Firestorm is there as well.

[pookat]

THIS, made me scream at my television.

Writers -- couldn't you have given that line to another character who is, oh I don't know, NOT a brilliant scientist. (I get that this isn't her specialty but I know what a singularity is in relation to a black hole and I am certainly no scientist).

Also, putting it the female scientist's mouth? Ugh.

Actually, I see no reason to have to have that dialogue exchange anyway. It assumes the audience is stupid -- I mean, who do they think is watching this show? Most of us watching are going to be scifi fans and/or have seen a Star Trek episode or film (or two, or three, or...) It's not such an unusual term in the spec. fic. world that it needs to be explained via clunky dialogue.

 

Liked the finale otherwise, but this made me want to go back in time to erase that line.

I agree, the optics are terrible, especially on a show that has sidelined its brilliant female cast and made them primarily love interests in the latter half of the season. (Disappointing since I think they started off so well with Caitlin in the beginning)

 

(small voice) I had the exact same question and I was kind of glad when someone asked it. Obviously, I haven't watched enough sci fi or read enough comic books.

 

I'll give them a pass on this not only because of my experience, but because Caitlin, like Henry, is a medical doctor, not a quantum physicist or even an engineer. Unless she had a deep and abiding love of sci fi like Cisco, even graduate level science (non-physics) courses would not have explained what a singularity was. I have no trouble believing she is an intelligent, capable physician, who probably could perform an emergency vasectomy (ha!) if she had to (with at least a modicum of advance prep, of course). Now if they showed her not knowing what hemoglobin did, I'd be complaining to the network and NOW.

 

Personally, though, I think it would have been best for Barry to ask what a singularity was.

Edited May 22, 2015 by pookat

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

Of course he ceased to exist - he was never born.

I know what you are saying and that would seem like the direct result of Eddie killing himself. I just think Eobard still exists just in his own time and not there right now. Someone explained  it in the

 

a time paradox rant

I don't know about the parallel timelines aspect being exactly what the show is trying to do but I do think the Reverse Flash character isn't going away. In the comics there's 2 or 3 of them. And, I think since Thawne is the main one then he'll probably continue to exist for some reason and I still believe the show dropped at least one clue as to how he still exists. Part of the reason why is because the timeline has already been changed by Barry. Eddie's death is a blip. If they had taken Eddie's body out of there then there'd be a bigger problem with the story.

 

So, if Barry is still the Flash and he's still at STAR Labs then a different set of events happened to lead to that being true. It may or may not include his mother still being dead. Though if Barry's dad is still in prison that would point to her still being dead. So, I think the case is that Thawne just ceased to exist at that point in time. He was there. He even got off a villain's monologue saying how he had influenced Barry's life.

 

It's all comic booky. And, I'm willing to roll with it until Rip Hunter pops up and explains Everything and ties it up with a bow.

[driedfruit]

I don't have an issue with Caitlin not knowing what a singularity is as most life sciences don't have requirements for physics courses advanced enough for the topic to come up. Although her best friend is Cisco, so that makes it a little hard to believe. That said, because they underuse her (and Iris) so much, an moment like this stands out as demeaning and uncomfortable. 

[KirkB]

It probably should have been Eddie who asked the question, if he was still there, but that said Caitlin is a medical doctor and not an astrophysicist so just because she's a brilliant scientist that doesn't mean she would know what a singularity is. Most people know more or less what a black hole is, not necessarily terms like singularity or accretion disk.

[slayer2]

Fanwanking:

Barry is not the man of steel, and thus cannot move at Mach 3, though he must have skin like aluminum to move as fast as a commercial jet.

 

Flash is faster than Superman (if that's who you're referring to).

[Hobo.PassingThru]

I rewatched the finale and the whole episode fell apart. I know what happens will be resolved and explained next season but the cringe-worthy moments are glaring on the second viewing. There are at least two times Caitlen didn't know pop-science facts. That was two times too many.

As for the rest of it, I'll accept whatever explanation for the time paradox stuff for now. But, the rest of it  was on shaky legs.

 

The thing that burns me more than Cisco just diving in to build a time bubble and doing it with parts laying around the lab, was that Harrithawne didn't do any of this himself. He made that key to reactivate the reactor but even though he was supposed to be faster than the Flash, he didn't try to crack open the wormhole himself nor did he try to build the time bubble himself. He could have. He'd been planning this for 20 years. Wotta procrastinator!

 

I can get the explanation that it took two Flashes to accomplish what Harrithawne needed to do. But, when they had that scene with Barry and Joe on what will certainly become the Cosmic Treadmill, it was like, you're sitting on all you need, dude! And, in a previous episode I think he said he used that to run as fast as he did when he cracked through time the first time, so, why did he have to collide with a molecule in a super-collider to do that again?

 

Stuff like that...

[Potanical Pardon]

Just finished my Season 1 binge-watch.

 

The way I understand everything is that okay...Eddie shoots himself. Sure that erases Eobard Thawne from existence, but that would also erase everything we know from the past that we know about, yet we don't see anything else change. Let me restart...

 

We know that the original timeline involves Real!Wells creating the particle accellerator in 2020 which also happens to have Barry nearby the exact same chemicals and hit by lightning. 

 

Timeline B.0 is created when an older Eobard and Barry go back in time and Nora is killed instead of a young Barry. This is basically Season 1 of the show up until Barry goes back and timehops into his own body one day. Cisco is dead, Iris finds out Barry is the Flash, the tidal wave, Caitlyn sees an empty wheelchair.

 

Timeline B.1 is briefly shown evidence of existence by Gideon through newspapers where there is no Flash in the future...the losing powers episode.

 

Timeline B.2 is identical to Timeline B.0 except Barry changed the outcome so that Weather Wizard is locked up before causing other stuff. This is basically all of Season 1.

 

Eobard is trying very hard to preserve as much of history as possible. The biggest changes being Nora's death/Henry's imprisonment and real!Wells' deaths. He uses Gideon to check his work. He also really badly wants to go back to his home in the future (which may not be the 23rd century?) and is impatient enough to speed up certain historical events which really should have a huge butterfly effect level of impact everywhere. But he still has Gideon seemingly showing him that aside from a 2024 Crisis, everything else seems on schedule and unchanged.

 

Eobard describes Eddie's unimportance to future Thawne history which is consistent with all the timelines. When Eddie shoots himself and Eobard reverts to his real face and then disintegrates/fades away to nonexistence, my initial thoughts were "Hey wait, I get that, but EVERYTHING else this season should have like faded/altered around too!" I think the immediacy of Eddie-Eobard made that change happen first, and reality was gradually altering itself to resemble one where Eobard never existed, which we the viewers do not see yet. The new wormhole probably is reality/universe course-correcting itself. The moment Eddie shoots himself essentially should destroy all Timeline Bs - the wormhole. Timeline C should now be created.

 

Timeline C, because we know this is a show and has actors/actresses of certain ages, would probably retain the whole Barry gets his powers sooner than 2020 like Timeline A. This new reality requires Timeline A and Timeline B (nonexistent) from existing or weaving its way into Timeline C - or else every timeline/universe gets destroyed. So there are anomalous moments that have to happen. I think this would be Nora's death. We also know that a future Flash knows his younger self will attempt to save Nora's life, so this future Flash is mostly likely to have always been NOT from Timeline A even though we all thought Timeline A Barry and Timeline A Eobard were who came back and changed history originally. Timeline C has to manifest in such a way that most things remain recognizable, but different. The biggest changes being that Barry becomes the Flash in 2015, the real Wells are around, particle accellerator goes online 2015, both Allen parents are alive, Barry does not grow up having the hots for his adopted sister. Eddie Thawne should be alive and a new Eobard Thawne/Reverse Flash should result from that. In some weird way, Timeline C future!Barry and future!Eobard are probably the ones to go back in time to the shared point in Timeline A that creates Timeline B.

It may be immediate or it may take all of season 2 for the ripple effects of Eddie shooting himself to take place in this new timeline.

[Trini]

I like your theory, Tandaemonium; even though I had to read it a few times. Time paradoxes, oy! But even though Eddie's death should have changed everything, I don't think the writers want to start from scratch; and I wouldn't want to watch that either. I wonder if they'll even attempt to explain any of the problems they created in Season 2.

 

... As for the rest of it, I'll accept whatever explanation for the time paradox stuff for now. But, the rest of it  was on shaky legs. ...

The whole thing didn't fall apart for me, but re-watching definitely makes the holes more apparent. Another poster laid it out better, but the main problem for me was that NO ONE should trust a thing coming out of Wells/Thawne's mouth.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Trini

[awesomeness19]

One thing that surprised me -- Barrie's non-reaction that he will still be alive in 136 years. Or the fact that nearly everyone else in Central City knows that Barrie is the Flash, but Eobard Thawne seems to have had trouble discovering this info on his own.

You make a very good point!!

Once again, smart people doing dumb things. Yes, let's listen to Wells whom has manipulated us all the whole season. What is the writer's obsession with Iris and Eddie? If you want to keep them apart, at least give her an INTERESTING boyfriend, and why take away Barry's girlfriend?

I see The Flash is going the way of Arrow with this unnecessary relationship drama. I have been underwhelmed with this finale.....where is all the promised action? What is so gut wrenching?

What a big build up for this!

I agree!I mean, what the heck? If Barry doesn't end up with Iris, why take away his girlfriend? And why in the WORLD would Barry listen to a timetravelling murderer? There are so many things that could go wrong!!! Edited June 1, 2015 by awesomeness19

[awesomeness19]

Wait, so technically, if Wells was never born, he could never have killed Nora Allen or any of those people. So are they just planning on Henry being in jail all his life? Because now they have no way of proving that he didn't do it!

[awesomeness19]

People keep talking as if 1 vs 7 billion was a sure thing. But it wasn't. I don't think it was even a risk. Eobard Thawne thought this through, and he doesn't want to blow up the world any more than Barry does. If you think Barry shouldn't trust his motives, that's fine. But I really think casting Barry as selfish because he doesn't do the math is way too simplistic.

I agree. I mean sure, I don't agree with what he did, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna hate Barry. And there's also the fact that although Wells is a lying phosiopath, he is also very smart. After all it took to finally get to the point where he could go home, I don't think he wod lie to Barry and I also think he would make sure everything would go according to plan.

[Marie F.]

I agree that the whole final episode fell apart upon rewatching it.  It's all pretty confusing.  I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but if killing Eddie were to erase all of Eobard's actions, wouldn't it also erase the memory of him because he never existed?  Everyone would have been looking around wondering why they were in the particle accelerator and why Joe's partner was dead.  Actually, the second his actions were erased, wouldn't all of the people in the particle accelerator be magically transferred to other places because the particle accelerator wouldn't exist either until 2020?  The second Eobard faded, they would have all been in different places--Cisco and Caitlin somewhere working with the real Wells probably (or actually they would probably still be in college/grad school), Barry someplace not being the Flash until 2020, and Iris and Joe and Eddie being someplace else?  I think that's why they didn't take that route.  I agree that they just don't want to do a reset because it would probably be more confusing trying to figure out how Eobard's actions changed the past.

 

Still confused, though.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Aracely

[Maverick]

 Like most shows, The Flash isn't taking a shall we say logical approach to time travel mechanics.  And really if time travel actually existed who say it would work logical and not have its own set of rules (it still bugs some though).

 

 I think the black hole that reformed was the result of Eddie creating a paradox and is time/the universe/whatever's response to that.  Maybe the black hole is how a changes manifest themselves.  Or maybe it's trying to wipe out everything and reset time it itself.   I think it's highly likely we'll see an alternate timeline without Eobard and Eddie where only Barry knows what's going on and either a) it's will be a nightmare and he'll realize he needs the Thawnes to exist to prevent Back to the Future Part II or b) it's an awesome alternate timeline with only Barry remembering the old one but Rip Hunter shows up, tells him things are much worse in the future and they have to undo the paradox.  

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

I think the black hole that reformed was the result of Eddie creating a paradox and is time/the universe/whatever's response to that.

 

 

Another paradox is that after Cisco and Ronnie (and perhaps someone else) built the time machine to Wells' specs, Wells ended up saying it is perfect. Then he said that the first person to build a time machine like that was Rip Hunter.

 

Well, that isn't exactly how history went down and in a way Wells ended up changing history right then. Now, there is no proof that the thing worked but if it had worked, you would think it would not have needed the Flash to open up a wormhole so the time machine could wiggle through it. It should have just popped through time on its own perhaps by just opening up a wormhole by itself.

 

I don't know why it happened like that.

[millennium]

My turn for a paradox question.

 

Reverse Flash returned to the past with a plan to kill young Barry and thus eliminate the Flash from his (RF's) original timeline, but that plan was foiled when the Flash followed him back and got his younger self to safety.  So as plan B, Reverse Flash stabbed Barry's mother in the heart, hoping to emotionally devastate little Barry so that he never becomes the Flash.   According to RF, that plan would have worked except that RF lost his way back to his own timeline and discovered ironically that the only way to get back there was with the help of the Flash, whose existence he'd just terminated.   So he had to create the Flash himself, by leading Barry through a series of life-changing events.

 

My question is, can we assume that the original Flash who followed RF back into the past for the showdown in the Allens' living room was created by the origin story we see in the comic books -- by a bolt of lightning striking Barry's lab and dousing him with chemicals?   And if so, can the Barry Allen we see in the TV series said to be following an alternate timeline a la the Star Trek reboot?

Edited June 8, 2015 by millennium

[Trini]

My question is, can we assume that the original Flash who followed RF back into the past for the showdown in the Allens' living room was created by the origin story we see in the comic books -- by a bolt of lightning striking Barry's lab and dousing him with chemicals?   And if so, can the Barry Allen we see in the TV series said to be following an alternate timeline a la the Star Trek reboot?

Yes, I think so.

[millennium]

Yes, I think so.

 

Okay, then.   My next question, how did the Flash from the future (who pursued RF into the past) know to tell Barry not to proceed with his plan to save his mother?   If our Flash is following an alternate timeline, the Flash from the future couldn't have known what our Flash was doing there, or the outcome.   I suppose that knowing himself, he might have guessed, or maybe five years from now, the original timeline Flash tries the same thing himself entirely independent of RF and had a bad outcome, so when he sees his younger self there he has a good idea of what's happening  ...

 

Can't wait for Season Two!

[Chicago Redshirt]

Okay, then.   My next question, how did the Flash from the future (who pursued RF into the past) know to tell Barry not to proceed with his plan to save his mother?   If our Flash is following an alternate timeline, the Flash from the future couldn't have known what our Flash was doing there, or the outcome.   I suppose that knowing himself, he might have guessed, or maybe five years from now, the original timeline Flash tries the same thing himself entirely independent of RF and had a bad outcome, so when he sees his younger self there he has a good idea of what's happening  ...

 

Future Flash may have already attempted to save his mother and found out the hard way that doing so would have a butterfly effect to be avoided.

 

Or Future Flash may have enough knowledge of other people's attempts to change the past to know in general that it's a bad idea.

 

Or Future Flash may be an outgrowth of Present Flash and might remember being in the moment in time where he experienced Future Flash telling him to stand down, and just is letting that all play out.

[millennium]

Future Flash may have already attempted to save his mother and found out the hard way that doing so would have a butterfly effect to be avoided.

 

Or Future Flash may have enough knowledge of other people's attempts to change the past to know in general that it's a bad idea.

 

Or Future Flash may be an outgrowth of Present Flash and might remember being in the moment in time where he experienced Future Flash telling him to stand down, and just is letting that all play out.

 

What I like about all these possibilities is that it makes the Flash universe so much bigger than what's on the screen. 

 

Has anyone heard whether Tom Cavanagh will be returning in Season Two?   Perhaps as the original Dr. Wells (who may be alive now that Eobard never existed and therefore would have been unable to kill him all those years ago)?  Then again, if Eobard was unable to kill Dr. Wells due to nonexistence, then he would also have been unable to help Barry become the Flash ...

 

I would love to sit in on the writers' meetings at The Flash to see how they reconcile all this, lol.

Edited June 8, 2015 by millennium

[Hobo.PassingThru]

I'm unsure if someone already addressed this as it played out in this episode. But, I'm going to throw it out there anyway.

 

In order for the Reverse Flash to exist in the first place, he really needs The Flash to exist just as much as he needs an ancestor in the early 21st Century.

 

Without The Flash, Eobard Thawne would not be a speedster in the Future. So, we would not have seen the Earth-2 Flash's helmet, Eobard would not have had a vendetta against Barry, he also would not have time travelled to kill either Barry or Barry's mom. So, why it is not completely obvious to him that The Flash needs to exist is baffling.

 

The way the show set it up is that he needs to The Flash to exist for the events in the season finale to play out and for him to be able to return to his proper time. All I think that has occurred is that he basically just took himself out of [the present day] time period...or, maybe Eddie killing himself made it seem like Eobard Thawne no longer existed and he still does, just in his proper future and not at STAR Labs in 2015.

 

The thing is everything else seemed to remain the same after both Thawnes vanished. But, this doesn't mean that Eddie isn't still Eobard's ancestor, and, there's a chance they could reboot Thawne getting stuck in this time period. That would negate him replacing the Real Wells and would leave both Cisco and Barry as definitely knowing what transpired when HarriThawne existed.

 

God. They've painted themselves into a tight corner. But, the one thing that baffles me is that to go back in time to eliminate The Flash is to wipe out Reverse Flash and reduces the chances that the alternate universes will be discovered (or will discover each other).

 

Baffling.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Hobo.PassingThru