S04.E22: Operation Mongoose: Part 1 / S04.E23 Operation Mongoose: Part 2

[Guest]

Why was Rumple dying when, as the Dark One, he's supposed to be immortal? I get that his heart was black, but why does it matter when you're the Dark One?

 

I think the idea was that the Dark tendrils were bound by the remaining non-charcoaled parts of Rumpel's heart.  When Rumpel died, the shackles would be off and great destruction reigned upon them.  I guess every Dark One passed on the curse before getting to this point.

 

I don't really understand how leaving for Lw/oM put the Dark One in check though.  Why didn't they dump the body outside of city limits?

[KingOfHearts]

I don't squee at Captain Swan, but I thought Emma and Hook were easily the best part of the episode. From what little we got, it was satisfying to get some meaty character stuff. They were the grounding that reminded you the show you're watching is Once Upon a Time. Everyone else was all over the place.

[fictiongoddess]

Okay, so the Emma/Hook ILY has been bugging me since last night. For me, it wasn't just that it didn't serve the drama as well as having the declaration happen in the loft, though that was certainly the case. Watching Emma's reaction to AU Hook's death and then her tearful confession to Regina, you knew she was finally and totally all in. The last time we saw that play out for her, upon returning from the 3B finale EF adventure, she immediately took off to find her parents and express her feelings. She didn't hesitate, even to the point where she abandoned Hook with a disoriented Marion. So can you seriously tell me that, 1) she wouldn't have kissed Hook upon finding him in the loft (come on, they've been dating or whatever for the entire season, however long that turned out to be), and 2) actually told him ILY when she knows better than anyone that they are never assured of a moment without chaos? Not to mention that she has to know that he feels the same. It's not like she was risking rejection here. Hook had to be thinking, "What's a guy gotta do to get a declaration?" He died, FFS! Waiting till God knows what is about to happen with the Oobleck was just...I want to say cowardly, though I don't like thinking that way.

I'll go back and rewatch both eps, and maybe I'll feel differently. As frustrated as I get with TS,TW, I stick around to see if my favorite characters end up with the relationships they deserve. Still hoping that Snowing will have a resurgence before the series finale.

In other notes, I have no interest in discovering who Lily's father is. And having taken college coursework in Arthurian legend as well as being a big fan, I'm crossing fingers/toes/anything else that it doesn't go awry.

[MDKNIGHT]

Overall I liked it but I was bothered by three things. They pretty much said that Evil Snow was doing the same thing with Evil Charming that Regina did with Graham i.e Rape through de-hearting. The attractiveness of both women is moot and it is just going too far. It brings up yet again why Regina could not be redeemed if she were a real person. I got the uneasy feeling the writers were sneaking yet another message that Regina isn't all that bad because Evi Snow did the same thing, extort sex from a boy toy through ripping out the heart. What they fail to see is that they made Evil Snow ALSO a rapist it does not make Regina NOT a rapist. I say this as somone who enjoys Regina and wants Parilla to stay on the show but feel that the writers erred in making her too evil to realistically come back from it.

Two: I am an intelligent person and know a LOT about human motivation and psychology and yet I found the Author's motivations difficult to follow. I feel I have to go though a lot of mental gymnastics to make any sense of how the Charmings reminded him of his pushy loud mouth boss and I didn't even think that guy was the worst boss ever. Now if you told me the guy stole Isaac's manuscript and signed his name and got a book deal then at least you give me a reason for hatred, even if the connection to the Charmings is still wanting.

Lastly they did a terrible job of explaining how the best selling book where "villains" win is in any way related to the book the characters were stuck in.

I can only guess that the two books are totally different (but no because Henry was using it to navigate the AU world so that can't be it.) Just naming the outlaw bandit Regina and naming the evil queen Snow is not what he was describing doing. And the Superfan of Regina who gave the Author the button loved WHAT about the character exactly? I could see loving the Evil Queen Regina after all Parilla has Evil Regals and I'm a fan. I can see loving the down but not out outlaw princess who is Regina in this AU but Snow in the original who then wins in the end,%2

[Guest]

I don't squee at Captain Swan, but I thought Emma and Hook were easily the best part of the episode. From what little we got, it was satisfying to get some meaty character stuff. They were the grounding that reminded you the show you're watching is Once Upon a Time. Everyone else was all over the place.

 

Beyond the obvious, I think Captain Swan was aided greatly by Emma knowing everything.  It added an emotional gravitas to the scenes and allowed her to react to the changes in Hook and her parents.  In hindsight, I think they should have had more people 'punished' by knowing what had happened.

[MDKNIGHT]

My post got cut off and the system isn't letting me fix it. Basically I felt that the flaws could have been fixed if there had been changes by somebody who cares about continuity and logic but I still enjoyed the episode.

[Cindy McLennan]

Sort of.  So at some point, Issac's "Heroes and Villains" stories would have become real?  Were the characters really in the Enchanted Forest?  Since he had already completed and published his book, why would Henry still be able to blot them out?

 

My understanding is that they would have become real, once they had played out 'til the end. They almost played to the end, and this is a complication, but the heroes thwarted a total play-out.

 

 

I guess since you singled out my posts multiple times, Cindy, I'll respond to your critiques of my critiques.

 

Yes, everyone has dreams. That's great (that's a sincere remark, btw). But their dream isn’t in question. It’s their ability to execute. People can be the warmest, kindest teddy bears in the universe, but being a nice human being isn’t exclusively related with competency and having the ability to do a job. In this case, show running. It’s not about disagreeing with their dream, it’s that there are clear structural issues with how the show is written. There are huge issues with their pacing, the show internals are for the most part bereft of logic, and they continually fail to pay-off on their setups. These writing issues have been on going since season 2 and they have generally failed to address these problems, and in some instances have doubled down on their worst habits.

 

That’s super for them that they are living a dream of theirs, but if they want to keep living their dream, perhaps it would behoove them to pay more attention to what are clear problems and failures in their show. Their dream is, after all, contingent on meeting the expectations of their network ABC (and that expectation is to make the network money) and judging by the current ratings their ability to meet that monetary demand is slipping - quickly. Though, I suppose, if their dream is to achieve cancellation after failing to execute, then live that dream, guys. You’re doing well.

 

I'm sorry I made you feel singled out, for any of this. I acknowledge the pacing (and therefore, the structural) problems with this show. Again, I'm sorry. I never intended for anyone here to feel bad. 

[LizaD]

I know in the spoiler thread we were thinking Rump made himself Charming due to the clothes and knight thing but he actually made himself The Light One. That's technically Emma. Another thing that stuck out was a throwaway line that Emma told Henry. She said Rump was punishing her by letting her keep her memories and taking away her power. Why would he want to punish her? It just sounds like a dumb move on his part. Wouldn't it be safer to write away her powers and memories to keep her from traipsing around trying to break his story? Or write her in as his servant that would be forever loyal to him?

The other thing that doesn't make any sense is why the hell the Apprentice thought the hat would contain Dark Flubber? He specifically said the ONLY thing Merlin could do to it was tether it. That hat belonged to Merlin. If dark flubber could be contained by the hat wouldn't Merlin have done it already by now dumb ass? Oh and then he dramatically tells them to go look for Merlin who is so so so far away and in the meantime? The thing was going to kill everyone in like 5 minutes? He doesn't even give them a location or way to contact the guy.

[Camera One]

And then he conveniently dies. Thanks for nothing.

[KAOS Agent]

If Shady could get the poor guy out of the hat so easily, why didn't she just do it immediately she was dehatted herself? But there she was sitting at the party at Granny's rather than helping him. It's not like they didn't know he was in there. Belle even said, "And once we get the fairies out of the hat, they can help us release everyone else, including that poor old man that you put in there." What the hell was she waiting for? 

[AudienceofOne]

The other thing that doesn't make any sense is why the hell the Apprentice thought the hat would contain Dark Flubber? He specifically said the ONLY thing Merlin could do to it was tether it. That hat belonged to Merlin. If dark flubber could be contained by the hat wouldn't Merlin have done it already by now dumb ass?

 

 

 

He actually says "I hope this hat will contain the power" and then when it escapes (literally 20 seconds later) he says, "The Sorceror knew this power had to be tethered!" Well, why did you try to put it into the hat in the first place? That was right up there with the "ZOMG, the Author is out of control so I've  tried to stop him even though doesn't matter because everything is FATED" conversation from a few episodes ago.

[Souris]

If Shady could get the poor guy out of the hat so easily, why didn't she just do it immediately she was dehatted herself? But there she was sitting at the party at Granny's rather than helping him. It's not like they didn't know he was in there. Belle even said, "And once we get the fairies out of the hat, they can help us release everyone else, including that poor old man that you put in there." What the hell was she waiting for? 

 

For them to trot her out when they decide they need her to wave her literal or figurative wand and accomplish something right then.

[Dianthus]

So...Isaac was still an Author (without a quill) while trapped in the book. So the quill is a test? Not just the 'you choose it/it chooses you' part, but breaking it too? Seems like the quill is used for making changes, maybe, rather than just recording events.

 

So much love for woobie!Hook in this. I didn't see him as a coward at all. He was downtrodden, yes, but still up for an adventure. I'd love to see Hook (with or without Emma) go for a dragon ride if Lily would go along with it. They could team up to save Emma from whatever, or have Emma along too if it's Henry who (once again) needs saving.

 

ITA that the scene with the bandaging between OQ was nowhere near as hot as the one between CS. I may have yelled a swear at the TV during that scene.

[KAOS Agent]

I think there was also a consistency problem with this episode. It was clear that there was a message that even when written a certain way, the characters true personalities would shine through a bit. So we saw Hook's innate courage and willingness to stand for his loved ones (even if he didn't really know them) and we saw Rumpel's cowardice and lies seep through his "heroic" persona and we literally saw Zelena's true colors, but Snowing remained dark without even the slightest glimmer that any of their inherent traits were stirring behind their evil facade.

 

Regina's characterization was wonky too because she seemed a lot like regular Regina, snobbishly commenting on how she thought Robin would be dirtier (similar to her offputting "flirting" in the Missing Year with the bathing in the river and pinecone money) and her insistence that she'll never get a happy ending. Since she was supposed to be the heroic Bandit!Snow, she should have been the type to go back and save Henry, so even that isn't Mama!Regina protecting her son coming to the fore. I find it annoying when they can't apply things across the board. It's very reminiscent of "Shattered Sight" where the curse made Regina forget why she was locked in her vault and then decided to change her clothes while everyone else just started bitching at each other. Whatever you're trying to say gets lost when it's not applied uniformly across the world you've built. 

[Serena]

The biggest thing that I hope they think about is how the Dark Curse should manifest in Emma.  In Rumpel, you could tell that how he used the Dark Curse originated from his own self loathing and darkest desires.  Emma should be a completely different version of the Dark One for that reason alone. 

Yes. Rumple was a weak person and he let the curse corrupt him. Emma is anything but weak, so while she may have issues, it will be a completely different thing.

[Dani-Ellie]

That’s super for them that they are living a dream of theirs, but if they want to keep living their dream, perhaps it would behoove them to pay more attention to what are clear problems and failures in their show. Their dream is, after all, contingent on meeting the expectations of their network ABC (and that expectation is to make the network money) and judging by the current ratings their ability to meet that monetary demand is slipping - quickly. Though, I suppose, if their dream is to achieve cancellation after failing to execute, then live that dream, guys. You’re doing well.

 

Replying in the Writers thread.

[Watt]

I feel like I should edit down your post, but am not sure where to attack.

In my opinion, here is the thing. All the previous authors were only historians. That is, they only wrote what happened, after it happened. Isaac decided to be a creator. He composes the stories, and the rules seem to be that if his story/stories reached completion, they would be canon, but until they did, they were just speculation. Henry, using Regina's blood, blotted out Isacc's stories, before they could become real. Does this help?

You know what would make this show better? An awesome recapper.

❤

[YaddaYadda]

The Captain Swan and Hero!Rumpel stuff was new and thus, more entertaining. Unfortunately, this was pretty brief and we were onto not so interesting plot stuff. Hook was by far my favorite in terms of characterization. What's funny about him sacrificing himself is that if you look at things from his perspective, he has a huge motivation to help Emma/Henry even if it means his AU life. They've told him he's a master swordsman who is the captain of the Jolly Roger and he has a smoking hot girlfriend who clearly cares for him. Given a choice of uncertain, beaten down deckhand vs confident pirate captain there's no contest. Now he's putting a hell of a lot of faith in a woman he just met, but Hook's always done that. Plus, he's already seen that Emma & Henry get shit done.

 

The threads have moved super fast (like all of them) since the finale

 

I thought Hook was awesome.  I stumbled upon this gifset late last night where all the things Hook was scared or worried about doing, he had already done in reality.  He's worried about the one Black Knight guarding the tower, but he took on something like 6 of them in the finale last year.  He runs away from Blackbeard when he tells him he can fight him for the ship, but in 3x17, he fights Blackbeard and wins and gets his ship back.  He doesn't think he can sail his ship on his own, but in reality, he ditched his crew and outran a curse because he is one hell of a captain.  He was also completely flustered around a woman and the whole "let me show you how it works" line was all kinds of suggestive about what Hook's...erm...situation? in the alternate universe was like when it came to women.

 

I do enjoy that Hook didn't change at his very core.  And he really bought into what Emma and Henry were selling.  He literally put his life in their hands.

 

Everything with him was on the surface and I sort of had that same impression with David in that when Emma mentioned that she was his and Snow's daughter and the product of their true love, he had this sort of moment of wonderment, I guess before Snow ruined it.  I thought that if he had had his heart, it might have made an even bigger difference for David.  I didn't think he was all that different from his real self.  

 

I don't understand why Rumple would wanna punish Emma.  I wanna know what his motivation is for that.  I gather that for Snowing, he has a lot of contempt.  I'm not sure what his deal with Regina is especially since has mentioned that he has a soft spot for her.  But Emma?  What has she ever done to him?  If anything, he contributed a great deal to the fuckery that was her life.  He used her before she was even born, he used her DNA to bring magic back to Storybrooke, he wanted to kill her son, he wanted to put her in a hat, he wanted to turn her dark and in the AU he curses basically curses her with her memories of the people she loves and where she's from.  It's like I don't get this tunnel vision of his, of wanting to hurt her.

 

Why?  I don't still don't get it.  And her line about Rumple punishing her was just all kinds of jarring because I don't get it.  

 

I thought Isaac's reasons for trying to screw over the heroes was unbelievably weak.  David and Hook are soldiers.  David was a knight in the Enchanted Forest and Hook used to be the navy and those two are no cowards.  David and Rumple come from a similar set of circumstances.  David was raised on a farm and Rumple was a spinster when George came calling and when the draft for the ogre war happened.  Hook was in the Navy and we know he fought his share of battles when he was a soldier.  David and Hook could've easily been the horrible, horrible (eye roll, he really wasn't) boss talking to the client about a shared experience.  

 

Anyway...I haven't done a second re-watch of the show but I have watched and re-watched some clips of a certain couple.

 

Also, poor Doc!

[OnceUponAJen]

Rumple's reason for wanting to punish Emma could be because she fell for Hook. You'd think he would want Hook to remember Emma, but maybe be too afraid to go rescue her until Henry came along. But, it was more fun to see them meet again...this time with his memories gone. Other than that, I'm not sure. He would have had to imprison her in that reality to keep her from messing things up for him. He could have wiped her memory too, but that was part of her "punishment."

[Dani-Ellie]

Emma thwarted Rumple's plans twice this season solely because of her own strength of will. She did not "take away her magic," which was really allowing herself to get sucked into the hat, because she chose to embrace it instead. And then more recently she didn't give into the darkness with Lily when he was sure she was going to. I can see him being pissed enough at her simply for being strong enough to not fall for his manipulation, especially considering so very many of the people he deals with do fall for it, that he would want to stick it to her in the AU.

[BoPeeps]

My expectations of the show have been, for a long time, for it to entertain me enough to feed my escapism and love of twisted fairytale stories, while giving me something visual and sensory to adore. Creative wit and sassy snark are drugs of my choice. Eye candy stroking is primo.

I roll my eyes at the massive gaps of everything, I turn off my brain in the "expecting in-depth intelligent scripts" department. The creative talent of this grouping of writers is unorganized and disjointed. They are big and bold on promise and premise and sorely lacking in fulfilment and delivery.

Instead, I go for the momentarily clever bits and pieces, sporadic wit, beautiful costuming and "thirst for adorably soul hugging sensory oomph" of sultry males. (Preferably blue eyed, raven haired and sporting leather)

There was enough sweet, sexy, romp-ish romance of Hook and Emma to satisfy my romantic notions, enough nasty-assed vicariously enjoyed evil bitch queen wickedness and yes, sweet Henry substance (finally!) to make me smile.

There is still too much story, too many characters and not enough focus on any of it to make this cohesive in any way. Making sense has permanently been taken off the expectation list!

It is a total mess. They continually fall short. But, fill some of my needs in a still singularly pleasing way, and I will continue to sit at the table.

Sidebar...O'Donoghue dies gorgeously. Morrison has a fabulous sexy giggle. Goodwin does evil with grand flair. Given something to actually do Gilmore is appealing.That was all fun.

Edited May 12, 2015 by BoPeeps

[Shanna Marie]

It turns out that they have this divided into two episodes OnDemand, so I could rewatch the fun second half without slogging through the first half.

 

I have to say that Ginny and Colin were the AU MVPs. I got the sense that they had actually done some work to develop the characters they were playing as distinct characters, complete with headcanon that made it three-dimensional and not as simple as "Coward!Hook" or "Evil!Snow." They had full-on body language, bearing, mannerisms, voice, and vocal inflections that had just enough hint of their real characters peeking through occasionally while still being entirely different people. Ginny was very definitely playing Evil Snow and not just role-switching with Regina, and that was even more chilling than the crazy eyes and scenery chewing is because she still had that calm and sunny demeanor while ripping out hearts or ordering murders. With Hook, you could see him gradually transforming into something closer to his real self the more he had people believing in him, first Henry and then Emma. By the time he comes up with the idea of making the sacrifice (and you can tell it terrifies him, but he's doing it anyway), he's a lot closer to our Hook, so that once he starts fighting he even uses the kinds of tactics our Hook would use, and by the time he dies, he's just about full-on "real" Hook.

 

I'm still finding it frustrating that we're entirely lacking context for his interactions with Henry because they've taken place offscreen for the past year. It would really help make all those scenes more meaningful if we knew whether Henry and Hook have bonded and are close in real life or if Hook's trying really hard while Henry is still wary and resistant (when you think about it, when Henry wasn't okay with Emma starting to date Hook, it was just days after Henry's father's death, and although from Emma's perspective it was never going to happen between them again, Henry never really got a chance to come to terms with the fact that his parents weren't going to be together, so no wonder he felt weird about his mom suddenly dating someone else). Either way, I felt like we should have had more reaction in the aftermath from Henry because someone sacrificing himself for you should be a big deal. We got to see him reacting to Regina, but not to Hook. If they'd bonded, then shouldn't there have been a "yay, you're alive!" moment? If there was resistance, shouldn't that have been something of a turning point? I know that the reunion of Hook and Emma was the important part, but he sacrificed himself for Henry, too, and we didn't get any kind of response from Henry about that.

 

I was going to say that the fight between Dark David and Hook would have been more meaningful if we'd had better context, like if they'd become friends in the real world, but then I noticed that Dark David taunting Hook about what he was willing to do for Emma sounded a lot like the way real David snarks at him about Emma, so that actually works in a weird way, and I got the feeling that this was kind of a turning point in that relationship. At least I hope so. It would be weird if David continues to be all suspicious because Hook's willing to give up everything for Emma.

 

I wonder if it was conscious, intentional ironic meta commentary or just a factor of their blind spot creating unintentional meta commentary that the sad ending for Regina that had the fangirl all sad and wondering whether she'd ever get her happy ending involved the wedding of the guy Regina didn't even meet until the final chapter of the book.

 

I'm also bummed that they've missed yet another chance for Regina to show the slightest shred of empathy. She's now literally walked in Snow's shoes. Has that changed anything for her? I felt like if I was supposed to feel like she'd "worked so hard" (gag) then maybe she should have been showing some self awareness instead of heading off on a moonlight stroll with her boyfriend. Also, the "light savior" blood thing makes zero sense. Emma isn't the Savior whose blood has magic power because she saves people. It's because she's the product of probably extremely juiced up True Love who had all darkness removed from her while she was still in the womb and whose DNA was woven into the curse and used to create the magic that brought magic to Storybrooke. She has strong light magic that even works in the World Without Magic. There was no indication that Bandit Regina was anything remotely like that. If anything, they should have used Rumple's blood, since he was the Light One and kind of playing the Savior role here. Plus, that would have been delightfully ironic to use his blood to undo the spell he started.

 

And speaking of self-awareness, where was any contrition from all the Operation Mongoose supporters, since this was the outcome of what they thought was such a great plan? They saw first-hand that using magic to change the outcome was a very, very bad thing, after spending the entire season (in Regina and Henry's case) working toward this goal. We saw Henry snap the quill, which was nice, but there was no sign of awareness that he realized that this was what he'd devoted his life to for the past few months and that it was a bad idea from the start, no "I never should have gotten into this in the first place." It was like they've completely erased the fact that this was all Regina's idea that Henry supported and then Emma and the others signed onto.

[RadioGirl27]

 

Either way, I felt like we should have had more reaction in the aftermath from Henry because someone sacrificing himself for you should be a big deal. We got to see him reacting to Regina, but not to Hook.

I hated this so much. There should have been a scene with Hook and Henry once they were back. Hook died to save him. I'm not asking for something big, a simple "I'm glad you are ok" would have been enough.

[Mari]

Emma thwarted Rumple's plans twice this season solely because of her own strength of will. She did not "take away her magic," which was really allowing herself to get sucked into the hat, because she chose to embrace it instead. And then more recently she didn't give into the darkness with Lily when he was sure she was going to. I can see him being pissed enough at her simply for being strong enough to not fall for his manipulation, especially considering so very many of the people he deals with do fall for it, that he would want to stick it to her in the AU.

This makes sense.

There's also her relationship with Neal. We all know what happened and why it ended with them separated and without Henry, but does Rumple? How much does he know apart from she and Neal broke up, and Neal never knew about his son? They've never really developed it, but that could provide some motivation to punish Emma, should he have a chance.

[Donny Ketchum]

17) confused: isaac said he was no longer the author? How? He literally just finished writing the AU?

Isaac said he lost his powers as the Author because he wrote his own happy ending, something he was expressly forbidden to do.  He could write other people's happy endings, but not his own.  As soon as he wrote that ending for himself of being a bestselling author with lots of money and fans, he lost the Author powers.

 

Having Red as a huntswoman would have been excellent too. :: hopes for the future::Still enough to chew over, but I loved the live chat and the comments here.

Where is Meghann Ory in all this?  Intelligence tanked badly, so she really should be back, since I'm seeing so many needs for Red on this show.

 

Since no one's said it (not that I'm surprised), I liked Isaac trying to chase Henry down.  I wish there'd been more scenes of that, since they were basically each other's enemies in this episode.

[Cirien]

I'm not saying he should feel that way, but rape survivors often do.  And his reaction would make sense, considering the other time we saw Robin and Regina talk about this, Regina reacted less like "You were raped.  Are you okay?" and more "You betrayed our love."

 

As for what kind of messed up relationship this is?  I'm afraid to even start . . . .

Well she was raping Graham on a regular basis.....maybe it's a sign that her morals are still not aligned correctly?

[dr pepper]

Evil Snow just doesn't work. There's more to being Regina than a high collar, pompador and cleavage.

Also, i knew that Henry would be an author as soon as i saw his nose bleed. But i thought he would use his own blood to write with.

[tennisgurl]

The really ridiculous part of this episode? The fact that The Authors lame book became some kind of critical and financial smash, with a huge fandom, complete with fangirls and cossplayers? I get that its magic or something that made him successful, but what kind of amazing magic is it that can make critics and fantasy fans get so into his crappy looking, bland good vs. evil fantasy story, where the only thing to distinguish it from every other crappy, bland fantasy story is that he used the names of famous characters, in different roles than what we are used to. And that didn't even affect the plot very much. I know that I disagree with what some fans and critics like, but that be be some freaking powerful magic! From what we saw of it, his "epic" looks like it would rate a few mediocre reviews on Goodreads, and that's abut it. 

[Shanna Marie]

Evil Snow just doesn't work. There's more to being Regina than a high collar, pompador and cleavage.

I was impressed that she wasn't being Regina at all. She had a similar wardrobe and was in a similar situation, but she was an entirely different character, and that's why it worked for me. She was still being Snow -- she still had her round table council instead of being a loner, she was still giving perky motivational speeches -- but she was evil.

[tennisgurl]

 

Well she was raping Graham on a regular basis.....maybe it's a sign that her morals are still not aligned correctly?

The problem is, the show keeps accidentally writing in rape story lines, then just hoping no one noticed it. Or, this is just a Mills sister thing. 

[Shanna Marie]

The really ridiculous part of this episode? The fact that The Authors lame book became some kind of critical and financial smash, with a huge fandom, complete with fangirls and cossplayers?

It was definitely magic, considering that it happened in a split second, and this wasn't his first book. So he'd created a fake reality in which he'd been this successful for a while. I suppose you could consider that even the "real" world that Henry was in after the spell hit was actually another fake world because it was a world in which Isaac was a successful author. And if you can make yourself a super-successful author with the stroke of a pen, you don't have to worry about actually making the book any good. As for how realistic it is, one of the biggest selling books in recent history was bad fanfic with fangirls galore, so it's kind of hard to judge what will succeed. As someone who works in that industry, it's very frustrating. I need that magic quill.

 

Isaac's World of Authorial Success being fake may explain how they get Regina's Mercedes back from New York, so upon the reset, everything went back to where it was to start with. Otherwise, she's probably going to owe a lot of parking fees.

[bettername2come]

The thing I'm confused about in this one is that we had Regina be the one to destroy Snow's happiness even though she was just a child. Did their ages change? Was Regina the stable girl in this continuity or something? How did Snow get magic if Rumple didn't train her?

[Donny Ketchum]

I thought Isaac's reasons for trying to screw over the heroes was unbelievably weak.  David and Hook are soldiers.  David was a knight in the Enchanted Forest and Hook used to be the navy and those two are no cowards.  David and Rumple come from a similar set of circumstances.  David was raised on a farm and Rumple was a spinster when George came calling and when the draft for the ogre war happened.  Hook was in the Navy and we know he fought his share of battles when he was a soldier.  David and Hook could've easily been the horrible, horrible (eye roll, he really wasn't) boss talking to the client about a shared experience.

I think this is where Isaac's motives could've been explained a bit better.  The first boss we saw was one who browbeat him constantly, all while proclaiming himself as a hero of the past, along with that vet.  And while I didn't see it from the vet, I could sense a bit of arrogance from the boss as he talked to him.  I think what they probably meant is that Isaac resents heroes who, whether intentionally or not, lord their status as heroes over the heads of others and use it as an excuse to act like they're better than others.  That would've had a bit more bite to it than what he told Snow and Charming.  As it was, Snow and Charming's reaction to his motive was rightfully a WTF?! kind of reaction.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Donny Ketchum

[Shanna Marie]

The thing I'm confused about in this one is that we had Regina be the one to destroy Snow's happiness even though she was just a child. Did their ages change? Was Regina the stable girl in this continuity or something? How did Snow get magic if Rumple didn't train her?

This is where either Isaac was meant to be seen as a hack who just threw things in at random without trying to make them make sense or the writers are hacks who didn't think through any of the logic of this because they were just having fun reversing roles. But there are a lot of questions here beyond those:

 

If Rumple was a hero and good person, how did Hook lose his hand?

Hook and Rumple are from the same time in the past, but is Rumple still immortal without being the Dark One, and did Deckhand Hook spend time in Neverland? Otherwise, how are they still alive?

If Regina is still Cora's daughter, but the one given up the way Zelena was, did she grow up in Oz, and why doesn't she have magic?

 

So I think we pretty much have to ignore all ages and background from the real characters and imagine that the characters were being treated like actors being cast in a totally different story -- almost like the characters in the show were in a play, so the roles they were playing may have had nothing to do with who they really were, though they might have had the same names.

[myril]

The really ridiculous part of this episode? The fact that The Authors lame book became some kind of critical and financial smash, with a huge fandom, complete with fangirls and cossplayers? 

 

Yeah, Isaac's success was probably as mind-boggling as I think the success of the Twilight books and even more so Fitfy Shades of Grey is. Not sure if Isaac's book was that much critical acclaimed, those review snippets on book covers of course are suggesting praise. Good marketing, hasn't to be good writing.

[dr pepper]

So, apparently Malificent (that means, "Evildoer" btw, she might want to change it if she wants a happy ending), had drunk dragon sex with the man in Hong Kong who sold a potion to August.

 

Or is there some other male dragon that got mentioned on this show?

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking how totally screwed Emma was in the Author's story. All the other characters were given new lives that kind of sucked, but Emma was chained to the floor of a tower with all of her memories intact. It's like the Jefferson treatment only it was worse. Everyone else had free will and the ability to do as they wanted with their lives. Emma was imprisoned alone for years and presumably would have been stuck there forever had Henry not jumped into the book. That's pretty messed up. The Author must have really hated Emma. Then she came home and voluntarily gave up her life as she knew it for everyone else. 

 

I wish this show would stop trying to pretend people have been more screwed over than others because some of the stuff these characters have gone through is truly horrific. The villains can't get happy endings needs to stop now too since in this season, it seems that only the villains got their happy endings.

Edited May 12, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

The Author must have really hated Emma.

 

She's the ultimate hero, she's the Savior and he has an inferiority complex.  No wonder he got along with Rumple.  Kindred spirits and all.

[MDKNIGHT]

 

She's the ultimate hero, she's the Savior and he has an inferiority complex.  No wonder he got along with Rumple.  Kindred spirits and all.

 

 

Good point.  I think at heart both Isaac and Rumple are WEAK little men.  They both lack strength of character and succumb to temptation easily.  Isaac would therefore side with Rumple because he sees himself in him.  He wants the wimpy coward to come out on top, above the heroes, and you are right, Emma is the ultimate hero and therefore the one to most humiliate to make himself feel better about himself.  If Superman existed in this universe Isaac would have had HIM chained up somewhere, probably having his liver eaten by a raven.  You know what?  Isaac and Rumple aren't both JUST evil, they are petty.  I'm going to hate it if Rumple escapes his cosmic charma and now with what  seems to be a BLINDINGLY white heart has become insta-good without any sacrifice or work.  Don't get me wrong I agree that Regina has had it ridiculously and unfairly easy BUT she at least tried a LITTLE to be good.  (She didn't participate in the let's make Emma evil plot for one thing.) Rumple hasn't even ATTEMPTED to do the right thing, not even when he was insta-hero in the AU.  The second Isaac told him Rump's self interest lay in the murder of a child he dropped the good act and was right there ready to scewer a child.  Regina in the meantime, not knowing the kid was really hers, stepped up LITERALLY  and got killed.  I love Carlyle as much as the next guy and I have to bend space time to accept Regina but  I think the writers owed us and the character a more believeable way for Rumple to turn good.  If you think they botched Regina's redemption (which I agree they did)  you got to admit Rumpe's redemption if that is what this is is even LESS satisfying.   

[YaddaYadda]

It will be interesting to see how Rumple functions as pre-dark one's curse Rumple.  We sort of got a whiff of that when Belle banished him and he had a breakdown about how scared he was.  I'm not sure he can live without power and as a cripple.  He has no magic, so he's back to his cane.  No one will fear him anymore, maybe it's time for everyone to go get their possessions from him while the getting is good.

 

I think Rumple loved how scared people were of him.  That's probably why he was so un-remorseful after he killed Milah, tried to kill Hook and did what he tried to do to Emma.  Now he's gonna have a whole town that hates him and doesn't fear him.

[OnceUponAJen]

Yeah, Rumple wanted the respect that heroes get but he didn't have the nerve to work for it. He took a short cut to getting respect (of sorts) through fear, not admiration.

[jhlipton]

I thought Isaac's reasons for trying to screw over the heroes was unbelievably weak.  David and Hook are soldiers.  David was a knight in the Enchanted Forest and Hook used to be the navy and those two are no cowards.

Maybe that's why -- his boss and his last customer bonded over their military experience, shutting Isaac out yet again. A bit of residual resentment goes a long way in the EF.

I think this is where Isaac's motives could've been explained a bit better.  The first boss we saw was one who browbeat him constantly, all while proclaiming himself as a hero of the past, along with that vet.

Sorry, Donny, I didn't see your post when I put mine up.

Edited May 13, 2015 by jhlipton

[Souris]

Where is Meghann Ory in all this?  Intelligence tanked badly, so she really should be back, since I'm seeing so many needs for Red on this show.

 

There is some sort of bad blood between her and A&E. I don't know if it's mutual or one-sided, but something definitely went on there. They'd promised her a storyline in S2, but pushed it aside for other things. She then left to do Intelligence and despite seemingly being free, has been back only briefly.

 

The really ridiculous part of this episode? The fact that The Authors lame book became some kind of critical and financial smash, with a huge fandom, complete with fangirls and cossplayers? 

 

I'm sorry, but have you seen some of the bestsellers in recent years??

[Whitley Trillbert]

I liked the Heroes & Villains reality. I would have enjoyed a whole season of that. Especially if it had been used as an excuse to bring back MIA characters like Ruby, Dr. Whale, and Mulan.

 

So based on the white heart, Rumpelstiltskin is the new Savior? That should be an interesting twist. And I like the reveal of who the Sorcerer is. That's a callback to season 1, where Excalibur was among Rumpelstiltskin's magical collection.

 

All in all, this season reminded of the early seasons of Smallville. Fantastic season premier, shitty middle with a few bright spots, and a fantastic season finale.

[AudienceofOne]

I liked the Heroes & Villains reality

 

 

I wanted a real Heroes and Villians reality. I wanted to see what happens when you subvert fairy tales to tell a tale where being selfish does actually make you win. It could have been so interesting to see what they could have come up with if they really tried to tell the "Villians get happy endings" story rather than telling the exact same tale and just switching characters around in a way that make no narrative sense. Ok, the Author is a bad writer. I get it. But the show's writers don't have to be.

[jhlipton]

I liked the Heroes & Villains reality. I would have enjoyed a whole season of that.

A whole season of us saying "Why did they do that?" and A&E the Author saying "Because I say so."? No thanks. This little bit was bad enough.

[Curio]

I rewatched some of the scenes from the second half and noticed a totally unintentional Graham shoutout. When Emma is talking to Regina about watching Hook die in front of her and regretting how she never told him she loves him, we were supposed to see that scene as this touching confession between two supposed "friends." But let's take another look at what they were talking about.

 

Emma is basically saying, "I just watched someone I care about die in front of me."

Regina says, "Wow, that's terrible."

 

Yes, it is terrible Regina. But I suppose I should only hope for one apology at a time, and at this point, I'd much rather see a scene of Regina apologizing to Snow after finally walking in her shoes and realizing how crazy her Evil Queen persona was for latching all her anger onto Snow for that many years.

[Leia1979]

Late to the party here, but I finally got to watch this morning. It doesn't hold a candle to last season's finale (which I absolutely loved), but I enjoyed it more than the rest of 4B. At first, it was actually starting to feel like a Dark Mirror version of last season's finale when Regina was going to go rob a royal carriage. I expected that Robin Hood would be the carriage occupant until Regina called him the competition.

 

I was very confused at the beginning, wondering how Isaac ended up in the land without magic in 1966. It never occurred to me that he was from there until he met with the Sorcerer's Apprentice. At that point, I immediately had to look up when Walt Disney died, and it all made sense.

 

I giggled at Killian bringing the prisoner from the "Kingdom of Kashyyyk," though I actually couldn't understand Henry explaining the joke and had to rewind. I can see how someone who has only seen the movies (or at least the original ones, since I have blocked the newer ones from my mind) wouldn't get the reference, though. I think just calling Henry a Wookie to start with would have worked better without explanation.

 

I loved deckhand Killian, though I think he should have had two hands and been dressed differently. I suppose we needed reason for Henry to get all mistaken identity with him. The meeting of AU!Killian and Emma was lovely.

 

I also enjoyed Evil Queen Snow, but overall, I was looking for an AU where the villains got happy endings as themselves, not because they'd swapped places with their hero counterparts. Part one being largely Bandit Regina wasn't interesting to me at all, but part two became a bit more fun.

 

I am looking forward to what Dark!Emma might bring next season, but I'll try to temper my expectations. 

[Shanna Marie]

I also enjoyed Evil Queen Snow, but overall, I was looking for an AU where the villains got happy endings as themselves, not because they'd swapped places with their hero counterparts.

Yeah, it really didn't fit what they seemed to be trying to say. I get the feeling they were starting from the concept of the heroes in the villain roles and vice versa and reverse engineered a plot to fit, but if Isaac was really coming from a place of wanting to show the heroes for the losers they are, he wouldn't have just had the villains and heroes switching places. He'd have had the heroes be ineffectual against the villains. So Regina would still have been the Evil Queen, but Bandit Snow and David would have been pathetic losers who tried to rally people, only to get people killed or have people abandon them and refuse to support them against the Evil Queen. Rumple might still have been made a hero since that was the point of the whole exercise for him, but it seems like Isaac would have done other things with the other characters. Really, Hook was the one most like what you'd think Isaac would have done, based on what he said his motivation was. He wasn't a villain, but was a hero who wasn't nearly as cool as people think. He was a nerdy loser.

 

Or another approach would be to have everyone in the same places, but Bandit Snow was a terrible person for stealing and for undermining the reign of Good Queen Regina. Make Snow and David terrorists rather than freedom fighters.

[coops]

Hmmm didn't really like it, while it was fun I found it a little boring. There were just a lot of scenes that seemed to inle exist to showcase the fact certain characters had swapped roles. The above suggestion would have bern far more interesting; a world where being the evil queen means you could actually win. It would have been far more harrowing to see Snow die while doing something heroic than seeing Regina in that role. I found it odd that Henry had to give Regina hope she could find a happy ending... wasnt she a hero in that world? I thought the whole point of it was villians turned into heros and got their happy endings but this episode made it seem like Reginas happy ending was just as hard to come by as it had been when she was a villian? I found the theme was a mess. It was no way on par with the season 3 finale.

Edited May 13, 2015 by coops