S04.E22: Operation Mongoose: Part 1 / S04.E23 Operation Mongoose: Part 2

[kili]

To break the book, Henry and Emma figured out that they had to give one of the "heroes" a happy ending? So, they decide it is their mission to convince uncooperative and unbelieving Regina to break up the marriage of Robin and Zelena. Meanwhile, neither of them knew what frame of mind Robin was in. Sounds like a tough task and it was and it failed.

 

I can see why they didn't think to  give Snow and Charming their happy ending - they were pretty hard core evil at that point. Too dangerous.

 

But, I can't see why they didn't give Hook his happy ending.  Emma knows what it is. At least one of the party (her) is already on board. Henry has already managed to get him the Jolly Roger (not part of his Happy Ending, but it will make him happier). AU Hook is amiable and goes along with all of their suggestions. The sparks are clearly flying. He quickly reverts from  his AU personality of a coward and becomes a hero to save Emma. Seems like it would have been a lot easier task to give him his Happy Ending. Problem solved.

 

I loved it when Charming stabbed Hook in the back. Great call back to the battle James had with the scary dude. Should have made sure he was dead. Loved, loved the wookie prisoner gag...it always works. Loved Henry effortlessly whacking Black Beard out. He's become a fun recurring character. The entire part of the Hook plot was golden.

 

Loved cheesastic Rumple. They seemed to have stolen Phoebus's look from Hunchback for his look. The always good good guy. I noticed that he increasingly became less golden hero looking (shedding the armor) the further he went down the road to killing Henry. It also showed his true colours. A true hero would have tried to find a way that made everybody happy.

 

Zelena needs some serious help if her happy ending is stealing her sister's boyfriend. Robin is as feckless as ever. Dude, you were mooning at another woman while you were making your vows.

 

Loved the round table of evil. Loved Grumpy calling Grannie a mangy flea bag. Loved Snow's motivational speech. Loved evil Charming.

 

If Emma isn't in the book, how did Isaac write her chained in a tower and powerless? Is there an appendix that didn't get published?  How did Isaac even write that he was a successful writer in our world. How did his magic work in our world?

Edited May 11, 2015 by kili

[StaceyNotStacie]

I enjoyed this episode.  I agree with the others who said that the alternate universe could have been an entire half season or a few more episodes instead of the finale.  I liked the Captain Swan scenes and I liked the scene with Emma and Snow where she told Snow and David that she was their daughter (and Snow's reaction).  The only odd thing is that I was wondering why people weren't questioning why Henry and Isaac were dressed so differently compared to everyone else in the Enchanted Forest.

 

I'm interested in where the show is going next season.  Even though we will most likely have Merlin, I'm glad that it will also be Emma-centric (hopefully).

[YaddaYadda]

I just realised something. Hook and Emma's love for each other was what actually saved everyone from the alternate reality.

Hook sacrificing himself for Emma allowed her and Henry to escape and Emma being utterly devastated by his death was what convinced Regina to help, leading to Henry rewriting the book.

No, No.  It was all Regina.

 

Also, the writers really do forget everything they wrote.  See the board in the library in 4x12 where they had a picture of the Apprentice and a picture of his house.  Yay, for remembering and continuity.

[Joenigma]

I enjoyed the finale. Mainly because it actually focused on our core characters. When the writing if focused on the show itself instead of the new guest star of the season, it can turn out pretty well. Yes I do think Part 2 was way more fun and enjoyable than Part 1 but that's because Part 1 had to be the set up. Of course... the should of, could of, would of. after it was over came up. Like why waste the first half of 4B on the QoD when they could have done basically stretched this AU for a few episodes. Another thing I enjoyed about this episode is that it delved into this show's own mythos.

[Hookian]

I enjoyed the finale and the set up for next season. It's very clear that CS is gonna be a main arc in 5A since they not only got the final moment before the sacirfice, she looked at him last. It's gonna be Snowing and Killian that bring Emma back as they're the ones she looked towards when she was talking about bringing her back.

 

The way they're all talking on twitter it's obvious next season is not gonna be the last. In fact ABC once again came out with an article this past week of how Once is part of 3 shows Black-ish and the shonda trio that they expect will be around for many years to come.

 

I think Jane was right on the money when she said 7. Which is fine by me because that means we'll see OQ proposal/wedding and more importantly CS proposal/wedding.

[ae2]

I only half-heartedly watch this show because my SO likes it, so forgive me in advance if this has been addressed...

 

If the "villains" are the good guys and the "heroes" are the bad guys, doesn't that just mean that you've created different characters where the bad guys have the names of traditional heroes and vice versa? It isn't the "villains" getting their happy ending, or the "heroes" losing. The Evil Queen and the Dark One don't win and get their happy ending, they just never became villains in the first place.

 

Anyway!

 

Henry became the author (big surprise), then broke the magic pen. Does that mean... that the Enchanted Forest and all of those story book worlds cease to exist from that point forward? The Author wasn't simply recording history but could change all the happenings of those worlds, so my assumption was that he created and controlled them as an author does. If he ceases to write then the worlds don't continue on.

[Mari]

If the "villains" are the good guys and the "heroes" are the bad guys, doesn't that just mean that you've created different characters where the bad guys have the names of traditional heroes and vice versa? It isn't the "villains" getting their happy ending, or the "heroes" losing. The Evil Queen and the Dark One don't win and get their happy ending, they just never became villains in the first place.

True.

It wasn't the villains getting the happy endings--instead, it was just a part swap.  It was a fun part swap, for the most part, but just a part swap. 

 

 

What I'm still trying to figure out is why did Regina's blood break the spell?  Wouldn't it have made more sense for Henry's blood to do it?  He was the one with blood ties to several of the people in the book, set aside from the rest of them, who came and found them when they didn't remember anything.  He much more closely parallels Emma's story in season 1, which makes him a more logical choice to break the spell.

 

Him being the next Author would, in my mind, just makes it more likely his blood would break the spell, since it's an Author thing gone wrong.

 

 

Did Zelena remember everything?  Because she seemed completely unsurprised when she turned green at the end of the wedding.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Mari

[sharky]

The only odd thing is that I was wondering why people weren't questioning why Henry and Isaac were dressed so differently compared to everyone else in the Enchanted Forest.

Yes! I haven't seen anyone mention it but thought the same thing. Hook was very adamant about Emma changing her clothes last year in the finale, but no mention this year about the hoodie? The only explanation I have is that since it was the Author's idea of an alternate universe, it wasn't something his characters would've noticed as being off. I guess.

[ae2]

Yeah, it was definitely fun (and I wish they'd carried it on for longer), but the way they built up toward it had more potential for great story telling I think.

[YaddaYadda]

Did Zelena remember everything?  Because she seemed completely unsurprised when she turned green at the end of the wedding.

 

Speaking of Zelena, am I the only one who noticed the look of disappointment in Robin's face when Regina said that the woman was still pregnant?

 

Because seriously, you asshat!  

Yes! I haven't seen anyone mention it but thought the same thing. Hook was very adamant about Emma changing her clothes last year in the finale, but no mention this year about the hoodie? The only explanation I have is that since it was the Author's idea of an alternate universe, it wasn't something his characters would've noticed as being off. I guess.

 

Yeah, the context was different last year where Hook and Emma were running around in the past whereas this time, they were in a different reality that they needed to get the hell out of.  That reality doesn't affect their present/future.  They go back home as though nothing happened.

Edited May 11, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[darkestboy]

I really liked that finale.

The alternative world stuff was actually well done and pretty fun in parts. Evil Snow White, Bandit Regina, Cowardly Hook, Knight Rumple etc.

 

The later twist with Henry being a future Author fits perfectly with his character in general and I did like seeing the current Author get his own comeuppance as well.

 

Even in a diferent world, Zelena's jealousy of Regina is a consistency. I have a feeling where they're going to go with her baby plot next season too.

 

Lily's sticking around then. Way too much info on how she was conceived though.

 

Emma being the new Dark One was an interesting way to end things. Also looking forward to meeting Merlin next season as well as seeing Camelot too, 8/10

[Mari]

Speaking of Zelena, am I the only one who noticed the look of disappointment in Robin's face when Regina said that the woman was still pregnant?

 

Because seriously, you asshat!  

 

I did notice the expression, but interpreted it a little differently.

 

I thought he was ashamed, and bracing himself for Regina's reaction.  Which is still not an awesome reaction, but is a little better.

[Primetimer]

An elaborate detour into an alternate story(book) doesn't make much sense or have much to do with the rest of the season, but at least it's kinda fun, as Once Upon A Time wraps up Season 4.

Read the story

[kili]

I thought he was ashamed, and bracing himself for Regina's reaction.

 

The dude was raped. They only reaction Regina should have for him is sympathy. What kind of messed up relationship is this where the victim is supposed to be shamed and it is even an option for their loved one to be angry at them about the situation?

 

Imagine the situation if Snow was raped and impregnated and she was shamefacedly cringing,  hoping that Charming didn't blow a gasket about it.

 

Of course, Robin doesn't seem to have been overly troubled about being raped or tricked into making love with his wife's murderer. The dude is a pod person. Still super annoyed that he doesn't get to at least be a human being.

Edited May 11, 2015 by kili

[Mari]

The dude was raped. They only reaction Regina should have for him is sympathy. What kind of messed up relationship is this where the victim is supposed to be shamed and their loved one gets to be angry about the situation.

I'm not saying he should feel that way, but rape survivors often do.  And his reaction would make sense, considering the other time we saw Robin and Regina talk about this, Regina reacted less like "You were raped.  Are you okay?" and more "You betrayed our love."

 

As for what kind of messed up relationship this is?  I'm afraid to even start . . . .

[kili]

I'm not saying he should feel that way, but rape survivors often do.

 

Yep. And it is really vexing me that the show is portraying this reaction as the correct one. That he should feel bad and Regina is the injured party. ARGH!

 

Way to drag us back to the 60s show. I don't think the Author is the only author associated with the show with 60s attitudes.

 

It is fine for characters to have flaws and incorrect attitudes, but the show shouldn't be endorsing them.

Edited May 11, 2015 by kili

[YaddaYadda]

Regina is the injured party

 

Regina is always the injured party.  I'm trying to figure out how they'll make Emma becoming the Dark One all about Regina and her pain and then when the baby is born, how they will have her looking at Robin and Zelena cooing over it for 5 secs while she stares at them.  Anyway...

 

Speaking of Regina and the way she raised Henry and how obnoxious he is, I thought the whole telling Emma that she should reel her son in because she was as annoyed with him as I am was just...

 

Regina needs a tall glass of STFU next season.

[Arnella]

Of COURSE Henry is the next author!  Did anyone not see that coming? 

Did anyone not see Merlin being the Sorcerer?

Lily's dad = dragon... PENdragon?

Emma didn't trust her parents to save Regina from the Darkness?  Emma sacrificed herself so the woman who burned her mother alive wouldn't have to delay her happy ending with the Zelena's baby-daddy.  UGH!

I really liked Evil Snow's hair against my will.  I also liked Evil Snow's backstory with the evil twin also against my will but I think I'd really like that fairy back.  Also props to post pregnancy Gennifer for fitting into those dresses!

I, too, actually liked Henry in this episode except for showing hard copy photos of his family - what?  What teenager doesn't keep those on his phone?  And Waitress - seriously, what "runaway" is actively LOOKIING for his family??  Although I know that whole scene was JUST to have Henry find the book...

[scenicbyway]

I thought the finale was ok.  I suppose I was spoiled too much as the sneak peeks were the only interesting scenes of Pt. 1 and we've known that Emma takes on the dagger for a month now, I found the whole thing really anti-climatic.

 

I could've cared less about the Author's origin story, so what if he picked the one old-fashioned pen on the table?  I gotta say, I don't have much faith in the Apprentice after a lot of his actions.  Why wasn't he there when Henry picked up the pen? Why would the Apprentice want to save Rumple?  Why couldn't the ultimate hat take on the darkness?   Is the Apprentice dead or resting?

 

I thought Jared did an admirable job considering he gets so little screen time anyway, it's easy to forget that Henry is even a character.  I like that he's the next writer, however, how will that work now that the pen is broken?  Is nothing recorded now?

 

Snowing was fine, the twist of being evil for a while was ok.  How they worked Lily in was ok to, but I don't really care if her character sticks around.  Why do we have to find out who her father is when we've been waiting to know who Hook's father or mother is since season 2?

 

Regina and Robin are so meh, I think she deserves better, however, if I have to see one more person sacrifice so that Regina can get her happy ending "because she's worked so hard for it" I'm going to start fast forwarding all Regina scenes.  Regina has not worked hard to be with Robin.  In fact, she's had two chances, once in the tavern and once in the church to go for him and both times she's chickened out.  Robin hasn't worked hard either, he's such a chump.  I still don't understand why he was sleeping with Marian when there was the very likely possibility he'd see Regina again.  He chose Regina, goes with Marian for the sake of Roland and then within weeks is sleeping with her?

 

Are Rumple and Belle back together?  Will Rumple sleep until 5b?  Belle and Will broke up?  Huh?

 

There was not enough Captain Swan in this finale.  They were absent nearly the whole first hour!  Emma was awesome throughout.  I thought it was interesting that in Rumple's happy ending Hook still survives just as a kitten (he drinks milk from his flask?).  I like how we see that no matter where they are, they find there way to each other.  I also liked that we saw Henry finally thawing toward Hook.  I hated that it took Hook's death for Emma's realization that she better make things "real," of course, she waited until the last second on that as well.  I was surprised we had no kisses in either episode.  I suspect we won't see another kiss between them until it's a TLK to break the Dark One curse.  The ultimate irony being Hook's spent hundreds of years trying to kill the Dark One and now he's in love with her.

Edited May 11, 2015 by scenicbyway

[shipperx]

If Emma isn't in the book, how did Isaac write her chained in a tower and powerless? Is there an appendix that didn't get published? How did Isaac even write that he was a successful writer in our world. How did his magic work in our world?

I kind of view it through the lens of 'Redshirts' a book by John Scalzi where the secondary character all had free will and their own lives (despite very limited and incomplete backstories) until they cross paths with a protagonist and suddenly they're yoked into doing whatever is necessary to facilitate the protagonists plots (until they started noticing that If you were a redshirt on an away mission with part of the deck crew, you most likely didn't come back) until they hatched a plan to break out, find the author, and demand that he write better scripts. ). Anyway, changing 'off screen' actions wouldnt change the plot. To change a plot took a protagonist because plots serve protagonists not Red Shirts. Hook (and Emma) were Redshirts. They didn't drive the plot. They had to change a protagonist

And I noticed that not even heroic Rump could escape his bone deep shelfishness.

[YaddaYadda]

I hated that it took Hook's death for Emma's realization that she better make things "real," of course, she waited until the last second on that as well

 

Her epiphany was very short lived.  Emma, you're such a chicken!  I know why they did what they did because of the whole effect they wanted it to have as the last words she spoke to him and how if she had told him she loved him in the bedroom, he would have said it back which would have made the whole sacrifice decision a whole lot harder.

 

JMo though, she knows how to bring emotions to the table.  When he dies and when she tells Regina about it was all sorts of gut-wrenching.  

 

Also, Hook needs to stop saying he's a survivor.  He's just one lucky motherfucker and that's the extent of his survival skills as of late.

[Arnella]

OH and ANOTHER character voicing that the Regina character is her favorite.  Yes writers, we KNOW how much you LUV her and that you would axe any childhood icon to make her the focus.  UGH!

 

And without the Dark One, Rumple's heart is pristine pure - seriously??

Edited May 11, 2015 by Arnella

[Mari]

OH and ANOTHER character voicing that the Regina character is her favorite.  Yes writers, we KNOW how much you LUV her and that you would axe any childhood icon to make her the focus.  UGH!

At this point, A&E have to be doing it just to troll us.

[Artsda]

I liked this episode, it was fun and great seeing everyone as alternate characters. Dark Snow, Evil Charming, Unpirate Hook. 

 

If Henry hadn't broken the pen, couldn't he just write the dark one away? Save Emma that way? Or are they going to go all 5A then realize that?

[Serena]

OH and ANOTHER character voicing that the Regina character is her favorite.  Yes writers, we KNOW how much you LUV her and that you would axe any childhood icon to make her the focus.  UGH!

Don't they get the irony that that "Regina" the chick was stanning was actually Snow, she just looked like Regina? I know it wouldn't have worked because they needed Evil Snow to find the pin, but still

[Curio]

I'm trying to figure out how they'll make Emma becoming the Dark One all about Regina and her pain

 

She'll probably feel guilty because Emma only became the new Dark One because she decided to save Regina's skin, so of course Regina won't be happy yet again, even though she has her "perfect family" of Robin, Roland, and Henry. And then we'll spend an entire half season on Regina going to rescue Emma (even though it narratively makes more sense for Hook and The Charmings to go after her) because she needs Emma to be a part of her extended family and then she'll finally be happy. Until something new comes up where she isn't happy again.

 

Her epiphany was very short lived. Emma, you're such a chicken!

 

I kind of love how Emma "Badass Savior" Swan isn't afraid of sword fighting Rumplestiltskin, battling a flying dragon, or sacrificing herself to the Dark One's powers, but she's afraid of saying those three little words to a guy who's clearly head over heels for her. Oh, Emma.

 

I'm still debating whether or not the director/editor purposely made Emma's final "I love you" to Hook feel rushed, or if that was just poor editing. It felt kind of flat. I was actually more emotional during Emma's confession to Regina about not once saying "I love you" to Hook and how she regretted that. Even just a couple more seconds of showing Emma's face after saying it, a close up of showing Hook's reaction (Colin rocked the subtle facial reaction changes during the bed scene), or maybe a little more emotion delivered from JMO during the "I love you" might have made that scene a little more impactful. I don't know, something just felt a little off.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I think it was the wind and JMo's hair in her face. That being said, i'll still take that over anything else in the other relationships.

[TigerLynx]

Is there any chance that Hook will get to be the one who brings Emma back to herself?  If Emma is a villain next season, does that mean Hook and Emma will finally get some screen time?  I did like Emma decking the author.

[Curio]

Is there any chance that Hook will get to be the one who brings Emma back to herself? If Emma is a villain next season, does that mean Hook and Emma will finally get some screen time?

 

Those are the two million dollar questions as we anxiously await Season 5. I honestly have no idea what to expect anymore after the debacle of 4B, but I'm cautiously optimistic about 5A since the writers tend to do the fall arcs much better than the spring arcs.

[Souris]

She'll probably feel guilty because Emma only became the new Dark One because she decided to save Regina's skin, so of course Regina won't be happy yet again, even though she has her "perfect family" of Robin, Roland, and Henry. And then we'll spend an entire half season on Regina going to rescue Emma (even though it narratively makes more sense for Hook and The Charmings to go after her) because she needs Emma to be a part of her extended family and then she'll finally be happy. Until something new comes up where she isn't happy again.

 

 

Is there any chance that Hook will get to be the one who brings Emma back to herself?  If Emma is a villain next season, does that mean Hook and Emma will finally get some screen time?  I did like Emma decking the author.

 

Since it's TS, TW, it will OBVIOUSLY be what's behind Door Number One. Regina will broadcast her guilt and pain on a loop 24/7 over the newly installed speakers on Main Street. She will be so upset, she'll attempt to take out her heart again. The town will band together to comfort her and give her daily massages. The pain and distress of Hook, Henry & Snowing will get one sentence each. (Snowing's will be one sentence combined, not each, natch.)

Edited May 11, 2015 by Souris

[FurryFury]

I think this finale managed to encompass both the best and the worst things this show can do. I did enjoy some scenes a lot, but there were a few that made me mad with rage (and in one particular instance, I was all ready to vomit all over the place, but more of it later).

 

The good stuff:

 

The beginning with Isaac and some of the other stuff with Henry in the first half felt very Lost-esque. I didn't mind. I actually really enjoyed Isaac, way more than I've expected to (the only other episode I've seen him was "Sympathy for De Vil", I couldn't handle watching most 4B episodes). The actor did great with what he was given. And now we know why he fell for Cruella. I suppose this was his inspiration for Snow/James true love story.

 

I guess this beginning inspired me so much that I didn't even mind Henry. Probably because it was constructed to allude to the pilot in some ways, and I really loved season 1 Henry. Too bad it didn't last, because at the end, I wanted to strangle the kid.

 

Evil Snow was all sorts of awesome. If there ever was a doubt about acting capability, Ginny has proved herself to be a far stronger actress than Lana. I mean, Lana's Bandit Regina couldn't hold a candle to Bandit Snow, but Evil Snow was as fun as The Evil Queen - but in a very different way. Ginny gave her that manic quality that made you feel how close to the edge she was at all times. I'm really sorry she didn't get any important scenes, her absence was especially felt at the end during the wedding.

As for Evil Charming, he was basically just there in the background, which is very disappointing. That said, Josh looked sexy as hell with all that get-up. Can we keep it?

 

Hook and Emma fared pretty well this episode. They didn't get that much screen-time, but all of it was used to the maximum effect. I haven't enjoyed them that much since 3B finale. Also, JMo sold the hell out of Emma's grief at his death during her talk with Regina.

 

Speaking about acting, Robert Carlyle definitely had fun. However, I expected a bit more of Hero!Rumple. He didn't get much to do.

 

And no list of awesome would be complete without the mention of Emma and Hook shooting Dragon!Lily with a ship's cannon.

Loved that.

 

And now, for the bad:

 

The Bandit Regina stuff only highlighted how great Ginnifer was as Bandit Snow in season 1. Regina really shouldn't have been written as this type of character - it just didn't quite gel, and Lana made her seem like a sad sack rather than a swashbuckling rogue. The fire was missing. And as much as she and Sean Maguire tried, her scenes with Robin looked really forced. Their chemistry clearly isn't strong enough to compensate for the bad writing (which is a common thing for Outlaw Queen). Overall, I think I would have loved part 1 way more if there had been a lesser focus on Regina.

 

And now that I've started to talk about Regina, the worst moment of the finale. "Hero Regina's sacrifice saved the day" (maybe I'm paraphrasing, but it's close). REALLY SHOW? REALLY? I've wanted to gag. Seriously, how lacking is your self-awareness, writers? First you create a fan of villains Isaac and then you try to deconstruct him... But you are EXACTLY like him! Down to getting the "I love Regina" badges! I don't understand what the hell is happening in your heads. But this moment really felt like White Magic Regina #2. Holy shit, Henry. How could you have forgotten that this is the woman who brainwashed you for years and killed the sheriff (hopefully you don't know about the rape stuff...)

 

After returning to Storybrooke, everything quickly turned to shit. At the end, the Author stuff still made zero sense. What was the point of the Author's existence? How idiotic had Merlin to be to give this kind of power to just any shmuck tested in a Dalai-Lama-esque fashion? And apparently, you can't resurrect the dead but you can create life... Because Rumple sure doesn't seem to have a small child in real world (although I'm sure it will happen next season).

 

And finally, the crown jewel of idiocy, Emma sacrificing herself for Regina, because she "fought hard enough for her happy ending". Yeah. Because nobody else did! Open your eyes, Emma, all people around you did the same! You did the same - and Regina is to blame for your sucky childhood in the first place! I mean, I was spoiled about this moment. I've even already fanwanked it as Emma not wanting to risk Regina reverting to evil after getting the Dark One power. But the way the scene turned out still made me want to claw my eyes out in rage.

 

But you know the worst thing is? I LOVE Arthurian mythology. Seriously, it's by far my favorite story the show has ever touched upon. Of course, they are going to butcher it, no doubt. But still, one Merlin's name-drop (even if I was 99% sure the Sorcerer was him ever since he first got mentioned) and I was all curious. Damn you, show.

[Souris]

After returning to Storybrooke, everything quickly turned to shit. At the end, the Author stuff still made zero sense. What was the point of the Author's existence? How idiotic had Merlin to be to give this kind of power to just any shmuck tested in a Dalai-Lama-esque fashion? And apparently, you can't resurrect the dead but you can create life... Because Rumple sure doesn't seem to have a small child in real world (although I'm sure it will happen next season).

 

I assume that was Snowflake.

[legaleagle53]

- Isaac seemed to be annoyed that veterans were considered heroes. Both the boss and customer looked to be mid-forties so WWII vets and I just want to say how much Isaac sucks for resenting the fact that some scared kids went off to Europe/Pacific to save the world from some truly horrible people and returned to the thanks of a grateful nation. Personal note: I was discussing my grandfather and his experiences today with my mom and he was a WWII vet who came home very screwed up by the war, so I'm very, very touchy about this subject at the moment. Fuck you, Isaac!

 

I don't think it was so much annoyance as it was envy that Isaac's boss had a way to bond with the potential customer that he didn't -- in fact, it wasn't until the boss noticed the customer's tattoo and commented on it that the customer started warming up.  It certainly didn't help that said boss evidently had a habit of rubbing it in Isaac's face about being a loser both at writing and at sales, either.

Edited May 11, 2015 by legaleagle53

[Mathius]

And without the Dark One, Rumple's heart is pristine pure - seriously??

It wasn't pure, it was blank. Red is light, black is dark, his heart had gone full black, it was sucked out, and thus his heart was left white because there isn't any light or dark in it...it's essentially a baby's heart and has to refill naturally, which is why he's in a coma.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Mathius

[crystalwearer]

And without the Dark One, Rumple's heart is pristine pure - seriously??

Funny thing about that, I was wondering if my monitor color was off: Rumpel's heart looked white/clear after the darkness was removed, but pure/good hearts on this show are usually done as bright *red*. Maybe it means something else, like Rumpel's heart is a blank slate now because the darkness was all there was to him at that point?

The AU looked like fun for the actors but my biggest problem was lack of internal plot. What is the plot of Heroes and Villians? We have an Ogreslayer/Light One who life consists of ride->ogre zap->ride->kiss wife and kid->ride->repeat, an evil queen nominally ruling the realm, a bandit the queen's hunting, and another bandit who decides to get married, but none of these connect. And Henry jumped into the final chapter -- isn't that supposed to be the point where all of the plot elements come together?

For comparison, I could see Regina interfering in Robin's wedding because a) he's a thief and she's always had a law-an-order fetish and b) no one gets happy endings until she gets hers. I could see Light One Rumpel stepping in to save bandit Regina from Snow's lackeys (cause he's a Hero[tm]) thus forcing Snow and Rumpel into direct conflict. Or even Rumpel teaming up with Snow to hunt Regina and Robin because a Hero[tm] doesn't want bandits having free reign.

Not sure what it says about Heroes & Villians fans if Isaac's book really is just a bunch of disconnected characters. Unless the point is they love it because they've all projected their own imagined plot onto his characters?

ETA: Thanks, Mathius, you saw it too!

Edited May 11, 2015 by crystalwearer

[Shanna Marie]

As I think more about this episode, it seems to me like, as is so often the case, it would have been so much better if things had been properly set up.

 

For instance:

Isaac seemed to be annoyed that veterans were considered heroes. Both the boss and customer looked to be mid-forties so WWII vets and I just want to say how much Isaac sucks for resenting the fact that some scared kids went off to Europe/Pacific to save the world from some truly horrible people and returned to the thanks of a grateful nation.

I can kind of see this as a potential villain motivation or a reason Isaac would identify with Rumple, but it needed a lot more development and explanation than this. Why wasn't Isaac a veteran? He seemed to be in about the same age range, and if he wasn't in WWII, he would have been in Korea. I can see where it might have been difficult for someone with no war experience to deal with all his peers being considered heroes and bonding over that, always being the odd man out., and starting to resent that (and yeah, being a bit of a jerk for doing so). But why? Was he physically unfit for service? Did he pull a Rumple and disable himself before he went into battle, so he resents the real heroes? If you've got a character who so resents heroes that he wants to write a book in which the villains are the heroes, it needs a little more development than his boss swooping in and doing the bonding to get a sale because he could relate to the veteran customer. And even then, why would he just do a role switch so that the usual villains are heroes, and vice versa, instead of writing the story where the heroes turn out to be horrible people who suck? (Then again, considering the story he wrote and the way "hero" Rumple acted, maybe that was the case, but I really don't think that's what our writers intended to show.)

 

Or there was the stuff with Hook and Henry, which would have been a lot more meaningful if we had any idea what relationship they actually have in the real world. The last time we had a scene with any kind of substance between them was the Captain Cobra Campout in season 3 when Henry didn't have his memories. Since then, we've had Henry mentioning that he wasn't okay with Emma dating Hook but wanted her to be happy and we had the "filthy pirate" bit during the Shattered Sight spell. Everything else, including the sailing lessons, took place offscreen, so we don't know if Henry enjoyed the lessons and has been bonding with Hook or if he's been doing that to humor Emma and resenting every minute of it. That "I had a great teacher -- you" moment should have been really meaningful, but it went very flat because we don't know if Henry is dealing with a person he cares about who currently doesn't know who he is or if Henry is just using Hook as a means to an end because he has a handy ship. And because we don't know what the current relationship is, we don't know how all this will affect them going forward. Does the fact that Hook was willing to die to save him change anything between him and Henry? Does it solidify something that was already good, or is it a turning point for Henry? I feel like we were supposed to get a big "awww" out of the "great teacher" speech, but it wasn't set up at all.

 

DItto for Emma's sudden sorrow at not having told Hook she loves him. That was heartwrenching, but not as much as it should have been because I don't feel like it's been really set up. Yeah, we've noticed a number of times when we might have expected her to say something to him -- like maybe the latest time she saw him nearly die -- but those scenes weren't written like there was something she was thinking or feeling but chickened out of saying. I know there's just that general sense of "I should have said something before" upon losing someone, but this seems like a thread that should have been more overt all along in order for it to have real impact now.
 

Once again Regina gets her happy ending while Emma & her loved ones suffer.

Oh, but life always kicks her in the teeth, she gets the short end of the stick, and no one else ever has her back.

 

How could the apprentice cleave Rumple from the dagger in that way, but the premise of 4a indicated that it was done in another manner?

I think the premise of 4A was that Rumple was trying to cleave himself from the dagger while still having all the powers of the Dark One. That was why he was having to do all the extra stuff. In this case, I would expect that Rumple just lost all the Dark One stuff, and all the benefits that came with it. He should start aging normally instead of being immortal (I wonder if that means he's like Mal and can't leave town, since it was the Dark One power keeping him alive and making him immortal), and he won't have any power.

 

Also, Hook needs to stop saying he's a survivor.  He's just one lucky motherfucker and that's the extent of his survival skills as of late.

We really need the retcon in which we learn he's got an exhausted fairy godmother or guardian angel, or he's some kind of Destined, Chosen One who can't be allowed to die until he's fulfilled his purpose.

 

Speaking of retcons, are they now saying that Isaac actually did make Snow and Charming do the eggbaby evilectomy? Weren't they saying earlier that it was all on them, with only the Apprentice's actions being changed?

[FormerMod-a1]

Funny thing about that, I was wondering if my monitor color was off: Rumpel's heart looked white/clear after the darkness was removed, but pure/good hearts on this show are usually done as bright *red*. Maybe it means something else, like Rumpel's heart is a blank slate now because the darkness was all there was to him at that point?

The AU looked like fun for the actors but my biggest problem was lack of internal plot. What is the plot of Heroes and Villians? We have an Ogreslayer/Light One who life consists of ride->ogre zap->ride->kiss wife and kid->ride->repeat, an evil queen nominally ruling the realm, a bandit the queen's hunting, and another bandit who decides to get married, but none of these connect. And Henry jumped into the final chapter -- isn't that supposed to be the point where all of the plot elements come together?

For comparison, I could see Regina interfering in Robin's wedding because a) he's a thief and she's always had a law-an-order fetish and b) no one gets happy endings until she gets hers. I could see Light One Rumpel stepping in to save bandit Regina from Snow's lackeys (cause he's a Hero[tm]) thus forcing Snow and Rumpel into direct conflict. Or even Rumpel teaming up with Snow to hunt Regina and Robin because a Hero[tm] doesn't want bandits having free reign.

Not sure what it says about Heroes & Villians fans if Isaac's book really is just a bunch of disconnected characters. Unless the point is they love it because they've all projected their own imagined plot onto his characters?

ETA: Thanks, Mathius, you saw it too!

I think that's because we were in the last chapter, and near the end of it even. So Rumple's ending was to the Light Knight (or whatever) with Belle as his wife and a baby. Zelana's ending was to marry Robin. Snow's was to be the evil queen and unhappy... etc.

[myril]

All I could think of was choosing the blue pill or the red one.

 

Taking the red one.

 

This was fan fiction galore, and maybe should give the writers of the show kudos for being so great at imitating the writing and character handling one can find in a lot of fan fics. Don't get me wrong, there are some jewels out there in fan fic, but the majority is boring, at best written with a sense for word art but seldom one for story telling, sorry. Even mediocre writing can have some entertaining sides at times, but nevertheless plenty of fan fic is at best enjoyable for diehard fans. But a few become bestsellers, like Fifty Shades of Grey - still no idea how people were able to read even just one book of it, IMO phone books offer more to fantasize about and are more expressive, but whatever.

 

Oh, wait, were the writers of the show imitating?

 

Fully ignoring what was before and will come after it, the finale was in many parts enjoyable, meaningless fun, minus the last minutes.  Galavant still did way better camp though. The episode had a bit of the relaxed tone one could find in the "Good morning storybrooke" extras, or the Singlebrooke Dating Service special or Witch Watch. Obivous they had some fun doing it. No worries about plotholes, retcons, timeline or pesky details, after all it was mostly Isaac's doing, so blame him.

 

Highly doubt this AU would have worked well for a couple of episodes, dfiferent from what others have been saying. It was okay as a 2-hour finale, but the whole Author and Apprentice arc was weak. The alternative versions of the characters were even more card-board than the show's "original" versions, which was okay as being Isaac's versions, but there was not much in it for more. With different writers maybe, but this show doesn't do nuanced, subtle and depth well.

 

Unless OUaT would fully embrace being goofy and stop with pretending to be drama. Or maybe we should stop pretending to watch drama and settle with watching goofy, meaningless mass entertainment.

 

memorable:

 

Isaac: "Do we need to settle for what came before? Don't you want to really see the world? It's a complicated place, and people are complex creatures. Their interior lives are painted with many different hues and shades. And the zenith Marseille color TV... it brings the profound complications of the universe right into your living room."

(are they reading this board?)

 

Boss:  "What the hell are you doing, Isaac? Huh? Rambling on about weird technical crap? You're supposed to be selling.

(...)

Boss: Stacks of rejected manuscripts in the break room don't count. But I figured you knew something about telling stories. That's how you sell. But now I get why you don't have a picture on the back of a book yet. You don't tell stories people want."

 

Admittedly had some grin on my face when Issac's boss made that connection between story telling and selling. Storytelling and content marketing is the thing recently. Maybe people should start writing fan fiction about products, it might get them a job (you have to choose the right pen though) ;-)

 

By the way, being a fan of good old German expressionism and black-and-white movies, particular film noir (the noir has nothing to do with the pre-technicolor period though, if anyone's wondering), and old enough to have seen some stuff first on black-and-white TV (took a while before we could afford color),  I would say, the black-and-white area did some more colorful and better grey story telling than some of what has been done in bright colors. Although some know how to play colors on film, just thinking of a movie like All That Heaven Allows (1955). Just saying. And while were in that time period: There was some joy with pulp magazines (not all dead though, Perry Rhodan, anyone here?)

Isaac is an idiot.

 

Merlin - oh really? Somehow I doubt the show will do Camelot (did they really do Oz?). This second half of a season we got a merry-go-round of villains, so might be time for a merry-go-round with realms for the next one, sort of, maybe they can do a sort of Stargate thing, find another hat.

 

But I am out. It was a nice goodbye episode to watch, filled with some of the fun the show can be occasionally, but offering nothing to keep me around.

Edited May 11, 2015 by myril

[Mari]

Speaking of retcons, are they now saying that Isaac actually did make Snow and Charming do the eggbaby evilectomy? Weren't they saying earlier that it was all on them, with only the Apprentice's actions being changed?

That's going to be my headcanon, but I think they purposely left it fairly open.  Snow and David talk about being put on that path, but not being forced to do it.  So, either they were forced to do it, or they were dummies that run with any idea somebody flashes at them. 

 

It's vaguely worded enough it gives them wiggle room either way.  Until it's confirmed one way or the other, I'm going with "forced to do it."

[FabulousTater]

“Come on Henry! Please be dead! Please be dead! Please be dead!” - That moment where you realize the Author is a member of FabulousTater's cult.

LOL! This made my day :)

 

I mean, The Tater Cult does not judge members or applicants extracurricular activities as long as they remain true to The Tater Cult's mission statement -- We embrace all those who are willing to submit, without hestitation, to the Tater Cult's primary and secondary directives, #DieReginaDIE and #KillHenry, respectively. The Author, unfortunately, chose to ignore the prime directive and instead made Regina a hero. His application and (failed) ritual offering for The Tater Cult membership was rejected as a result, but his efforts to kill Henry did merit him a second chance should he ever wish to reapply for membership.

 

The Tater Cult - Intensely despising all things Woegina and The Truest Stupid since July, 2014.

Edited May 11, 2015 by FabulousTater

[RadioGirl27]

This was the best episode of the season, but it wasn't nearly as good as last season finale and it doesn't make up for a terrible season, especially 4B. It's the first time since season 1 that I have enjoyed Henry, and I have liked the AU stuff, even if it had way too much Regina and not enough Evil Snow and Befuddled Hook. I have loved all the CS moment, especially the ones in the AU. The bed scene was lovely, but I hate that Emma wasn't able to say the ILY. Colin was superb there, his sweet smile when he thinks she is going to say it and the way his faces fells a little when she doesn't say it. I know they wanted to make the final scene more powerful having Emma say it then, but in the end it felt flat and rushed. And the sound in that scene was terrible.

 

But the last 15 minutes are horrible, so rushed and wrong. I don't know what I hate the most, that they are justifying all of Rumple bad deeds with the "it wasn't him, it was the Dark One" and giving him back, as a reward for all that he has done this season, Belle's love, or Emma sacrificing herself so Regina can have her happy ending. Because no, no matter how you put it, Regina hasn't worked hard for her happy ending. Hook, on the other hand, has done it and his reward has been a rushed "I love you" and a broken heart.

 

Is there any chance that Hook will get to be the one who brings Emma back to herself?  If Emma is a villain next season, does that mean Hook and Emma will finally get some screen time? 

 

 

The writers love Regina way to much to keep her out of this. They would find a way to make this about her and/or Rumple, keeping Hook and the Charmings in the background.

Evil Snow was all sorts of awesome. If there ever was a doubt about acting capability, Ginny has proved herself to be a far stronger actress than Lana. I mean, Lana's Bandit Regina couldn't hold a candle to Bandit Snow, but Evil Snow was as fun as The Evil Queen - but in a very different way. Ginny gave her that manic quality that made you feel how close to the edge she was at all times. I'm really sorry she didn't get any important scenes, her absence was especially felt at the end during the wedding.

I think the AU showed that the strongest actors in this cast are Robert Carlyle, Ginny, Jennifer and Colin. Both Ginny and Colin were capable of creating totally new characters in the few minutes they were given. Lana, on the other hand, wasn't very good in the Bandit Regina role, and Josh was really hot, but he wasn't given anything to do other that just that, look incredibly hot with the guyliner.

 

I'm terrify of what they are going to do with the Arthurian Legend.

Edited May 11, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[OnceUponAJen]

I just have to say that I loved the look on Emma's face when she runs into AU!Hook for the first time. She looked like an angel. Way to knock it out of the park, JMo!

I would have liked the episode better if the pace in the last 30 minutes wasn't so frantic. I felt like I was watching the conclusion of "Clue" with all the players running from room to room.

Edited May 11, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[FabulousTater]

The bed scene was lovely, but I hate that Emma wasn't able to say the ILY there. Colin was superb there, his sweet smile when he thinks she is going to say it and the way his faces fells a little when she doesn't say it. I know they wanted to make the final scene more powerful having Emma say it then, but in the end it felt flat and rushed. And the sound in that scene was terrible.

This just goes back to the writers of this show not knowing when to pay-off a built up scene and instead giving those moments short shrift because they want to save it for their not!shocking, predictable!twist.

 

Having Emma say ILU to Hook when she first sees him when they return from the AU would've been completely perfect pay-off to what Emma just went through, and would've also been an excellent moment of growth for her because in the past she's only said ILU to anyone right before everyone is going to die. It actually made no sense for her to withhold saying it especially in light of what she said while in the AU. The writers should've given Emma that moment of telling Hook ILU when they were reunited, but because these writers are hacks they robbed that scene, of Emma and Hook's reunion, of it's full emotional power.

 

What should've been a scene that had people (who are invested in Emma, Hook, or CS) fist-bumping and yelling "YAS!" in joy, was deflated because they wanted to save that ILU for their shocking!twist. That's hack writing; That's shit writing. When you withhold the logical progression in the development of a character and a relationship for the sake of creating a shocking!twist then you've lost the focus of what really matters in telling a story; because it's no longer about the characters and instead it's about you indulging in a need to feel smug by toying with the audience.

 

I think it's just clear evidence that A&E are only interested in gimmicks rather than what they really should be focused on - staying true to the characters and telling the character's story.

Edited May 11, 2015 by FabulousTater

[kili]

We really need the retcon in which we learn [Hook['s got an exhausted fairy godmother or guardian angel, or he's some kind of Destined, Chosen One who can't be allowed to die until he's fulfilled his purpose.

 

Maybe he is like that character in Larry Niven's Ringworld that is genetically lucky (in the future, you can only have one child with an optional lottery to have a second child - the character is the descendent of generations of second children who only exist because of luckily won lotteries. She is brought on the mission because she is lucky and they will need a lot of luck to succeed). Maybe it's a recessive gene because Liam didn't get it.

 

Hook does survive sometimes through wit, but he does get awfully lucky. 

 

In this case, though, he did have a plan. He knew his chances of surviving against the evil queen, a dragon and Charming (who appears to be an even better swordman in this AU) were totally non-existent. But, he willfully sacrifices himself because he believes in Emma. He believes her story and that she will be able to change the book and save the day. So, he believes he will survive his sacrifice and that his sacrifice is necessary to save them all. He even vocalizes this plan.

 

Lot's of Harry Potter/Star Wars in this episode. This was Hans not fighting going into the carbonite freezing chamber and Ron sacrificing himself on the chessboard.  Both believed that it was necessary to reach the goal and both believed so much in their friends that they would be saved in the end. They do and then it is Emma's turn to sacrifice herself and trust them.

[legaleagle53]

I think it's just clear evidence that A&E are only interested in gimmicks rather than what they really should be focused on - staying true to the characters and telling their story.

 

In other words, they really ARE Isaac Heller!

[Shanna Marie]

This just goes back to the writers of this show not knowing when to pay-off a built up scene and instead holding on to it becaause they want to save it for their not!shocking, predictable!twist.

Yes. So very much. I don't think the sudden I Love You even added more meaning or impact by putting it there. It just suggested that Emma still can't say it unless there's an immediate crisis. Wouldn't it have been even more heartbreaking if she'd said it earlier and they'd been allowed five minutes of happiness before it was all suddenly torn apart? And if she'd said it when she wasn't about to lose him? And if we got to see his reaction? We'd still know she loved him when she disappeared, and she could have said it again so we knew she took on the Dark One with her heart full of love so that it affects the impact of the Dark One on her (what I hope happened).

 

And I still think it would have helped if we had any idea that this was an issue at all before this episode, if we knew she felt it but had been afraid of saying it. What she said to Regina didn't match what we'd been seeing. What we've seen was more like her not realizing she loved him until she lost him rather than knowing it but being afraid to make it real. If she was afraid to say it, then she should have reacted differently to the near heart crushing -- then her running off to do shots with Regina would have had a different meaning, but it didn't look from what we saw like she was panicking and fleeing. She should have reacted differently to him telling her she was his happy ending. Or maybe that's what her tears then were supposed to mean? I can just see JMo getting the script for this episode and going, "Oh crap, you mean this is the way I should have been playing it all along? I would have done it differently if I'd known this."

[FurryFury]

Oh, and I've almost forgotten. The geek in me was exhilarated at hearing the line about Kashyyk when Henry and Hook tricked the guard in Emma's tower... And then Henry had to turn back and explain the joke, totally ruining it. So much fail. 

Edited May 11, 2015 by FurryFury

[FabulousTater]

This just goes back to the writers of this show not knowing when to pay-off a built up scene and instead holding on to it becaause they want to save it for their not!shocking, predictable!twist.

 

Yes. So very much. I don't think the sudden I Love You even added more meaning or impact by putting it there. It just suggested that Emma still can't say it unless there's an immediate crisis. Wouldn't it have been even more heartbreaking if she'd said it earlier and they'd been allowed five minutes of happiness before it was all suddenly torn apart? And if she'd said it when she wasn't about to lose him? And if we got to see his reaction? We'd still know she loved him when she disappeared, and she could have said it again so we knew she took on the Dark One with her heart full of love so that it affects the impact of the Dark One on her (what I hope happened).

YES! Exactly. I just don't understand how the writers fail at this time after time. It defies reasoning. How does crap like this make it out of the writers' room?! I just hope there was at least one person in the writers' room saying, "OMG, no! You're not letting Emma say ILU and are instead waiting for the end before she sacrifices herself for her to say it?!? That's a horrible idea!!! It makes more sense for her to say it here and it pays off on personal realization her character just had in the AU!!" I mean, how do the showrunners themselves not understand just how crappy what they did was?

 

I just wanna grab A&E by the scruff of the necks, shake them really hard, and then smack them with a rolled up magazine (a heavy one, like Cosmo's Fall Fashion Annual) until they either cry or they have a real Come To Jesus moment about this garbage that they are writing.

 

...Pffft, who am I kidding? This show and the showrunners are hopeless. I give up.

Edited May 11, 2015 by FabulousTater

[DeLurker]

Damn it!  I was so so done with this show - was just going to watch the finale and walk away because they have so consistently not delivered.  And then they deliver.  On the finale.  Which will sucker me into checking out next season to see if it continues.

 

I am a bitter bitter viewer.

[legaleagle53]

YES! Exactly. I just don't understand how the writers fail at this time after time. It defies reasoning. How does crap like this make it out of the writers room?! I just hope there was at least one person in the writers room saying, "OMG, no! You're not letting Emma say ILU and are instead waiting for the end before she sacrifices herself for her to say it? That's a horrible idea!!! It makes more sense for her to say it here and it pays off on personal realization her character just had in the AU!!" I mean, how do the showrunners themselves not understand just how crappy what they did was?

 

I just wanna grab A&E by the scruff of the necks, shake them really hard, and then smack them with a rolled up magazine (a heavy one, like Cosmo's Fall Fashion Annual) until they either cry or they have a real Come To Jesus moment about this garbage that they are writing.

 

...Pffft, who am I kidding? This show and the showrunners are hopeless. I give up.

 

I'd suggest that they go back to selling color TVs in 1966, but they'd probably suck at that, too.