S04.E21: Mother

[KingOfHearts]

 

Of course, I can't help but wonder if The Author's comment about how she is his favorite was just him sucking up, or the writers just finally telling the truth.

Normally I would go with the former, but it's TS,TW, so I put my money on the second option.

[Curio]

I don't think Regina's journey was written coherently or her change of heart in two seconds flat was all that believable. Regina remembers a conversation that she had with her mother decades ago, and suddenly she realizes that she has everything that she could ever want?

 

Ultimately, I don't feel like the writers earned Regina's turnaround concerning the author. For me, that's because Regina's definition of a happy ending was ill-defined for almost all of 4b.

 

Seriously. We've been waiting four years for Regina to finally get some self-awareness, and she finally flips a switch just because Zelena says, "You're exactly like our mother"? Really, show?

[YaddaYadda]

While i'm glad Emma made strides and she opened her heart enough to be able to forgive her parents for what they've done (her mother especially), can we please, just please for the love of everything that's holy understand that not everything is solved with a hug and a kiss.  

 

She might have forgiven them for what happened, but nothing has been fixed.

 

Also, Emma can heal?  When did that happen?  Instead of plot, plot, plot, PLOT, can we please, please, PLEASE spend some time on character development and WTF is going on in their lives that doesn't involve the new crazy that has hit the town?

[MaiLuna]

Regina was the one who gets most screwed over? Did the Author and Regina drink a forgetting potion like Roland? Also, I love Robin pointing out that Zelena killed Marian while sitting with Regina who killed her in the original timeline and who just didn't get to follow through on her execution in the new timeline.

 

But anyway, I'm glad Regina found out it was all on her. She said last season Zelena reminded her she wasn't always appreciative of the things she had, it took a long time but in the end Zelena taught her that life lesson for good.

 

Meh on Emma forgiving Snow that way. Also I hated David just standing there and looking pretty. And again the fix-everything hug! I'm glad though that it's over. This evil deed by the Charmings have been discussed more than any of the villains'. I wish Emma had mentioned that this bothered her because it touched on her insecurities, but I guess for the writers it was just about Lily and lying?

 

Captain Swan are so lovely. It does bother me a bit that we see Hook so supportive of Emma but when Hook got his heart stolen she wasn't really there for him. She's so mad about Gold for trying to turn her dark but she never was even a bit for trying to kill Hook (or trying to hat her, so I guess she just forgot all that he did in 4A). But A&E said we would find out how she really feels about him. I hope it's good but I guess I'll just forever be bitter about 4.11.

 

I wish Maleficent would act more according to her name, but the scenes with Lily were nice nonetheless.

Edited May 4, 2015 by MaiLuna

[Souris]

Captain Swan are so lovely. It does bother me a bit that we see Hook so supportive of Emma but when Hook got his heart stolen she wasn't really there for him. She's so mad about Gold for trying to turn her dark but she never was even a bit for trying to kill Hook (or trying to hat her, so I guess she just forgot all that he did in 4A). But A&E said we would find out how she really feels about him. I hope it's good but I guess I'll just forever be bitter about 4.11.

 

You and me both.

[Dani-Ellie]

I agree, but in this case, I don't think Regina's journey was written coherently or her change of heart in two seconds flat was all that believable. Regina remembers a conversation that she had with her mother decades ago, and suddenly she realizes that she has everything that she could ever want?

 

 

Seriously. We've been waiting four years for Regina to finally get some self-awareness, and she finally flips a switch just because Zelena says, "You're exactly like our mother"? Really, show?

 

I see what you're both saying but on the other hand, this is no different than literally any other resolution for any other ongoing plot this show has had. I've been watching this sucker for four years; I know what to expect by now. It's just one of those things that I've learned to accept. I get that the wish is the show would delve deeper into this stuff and believe me, I wish it, too. but ... four years. I think it's clear by now that the show is never going to have the depth people seem to want it to have.

 

Maybe it's simply a lowering of expectations, but just like Maleficent with Lily, I've learned to accept this show for what it is, not what I wish it could be,

[KingOfHearts]

As stupid as Regina's resolution was, I'm glad it happened. Fingers crossed the show lives up to it. I'm just so done with the plot for Regina's happiness. Let's move on to something else... like her helping another for a change.

[ParadoxLost]

Some subtle things I liked

 

- Rumpel holding on to his hatred for Hook pushing his heart to become a bit darker

-Regina sees Henry as her child and didn't decide that her happy ending included a real child of her own.  That wasn't even on her list, she just wanted Zelena gone.

 

I see what you're both saying but on the other hand, this is no different than literally any other resolution for any other ongoing plot this show has had. I've been watching this sucker for four years; I know what to expect by now. It's just one of those things that I've learned to accept. I get that the wish is the show would delve deeper into this stuff and believe me, I wish it, too. but ... four years. I think it's clear by now that the show is never going to have the depth people seem to want it to have.

 

I'm in the same place.  I accept that Regina has learned that she has everything she wants and doesn't need to rewrite the story so its 'perfect'.  I can't really connect the dots to see exactly how she got there from the flashback.  I still don't see what she sees in Robin Hood.  But I accept it for what it is and it could have been worse.  It would have made more sense to me if Regina realized what she had because the Charmings invited her to a family lasagna dinner at Granny's, but whatever.  I'm not being snarky either.  Well maybe a little, but I think Regina's happy ending is more about being a part of the community than Robin Hood.

Edited May 4, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[Shanna Marie]

Ultimately, I don't feel like the writers earned Regina's turnaround concerning the author. For me, that's because Regina's definition of a happy ending was ill-defined for almost all of 4b.

I think that's the problem. It was lovely payoff that had me cheering, but it didn't fit the setup. I suppose we could kind of guess that Regina thought her happy ending required Robin until she had her epiphany, but it would have helped if we'd had a clearer goal from her. The main problem for me, though, was the way everyone else bought into the crazy all along, and now suddenly we have Regina realizing that she's responsible for her own happy ending as though it's some bolt from the blue that no one has told her before -- because no one told her before even though it's a huge DUH. It makes everyone else look stupid for being so gung-ho supportive of the Operation Mongoose stupidity, only to have Regina realize what we've been saying all along. I think this bit would have been palatable if anyone else along the way (other than Ariel) had said something along those lines instead of acting like they really believed that the only way for Regina to get a happy ending was to have the Author rewrite it.

 

But I did love the stuff with Maleficent and Lily. Wow, a self-aware former(?) villain who realizes that revenge isn't the path to happiness.

 

They're not doing Regina any favors with the flashbacks. We get yet another look at why she's got a long way to go before she merits a happy ending, and we get a literal demonstration of the old adage about how revenge is drinking poison and hoping someone else dies. So yeah, she made herself barren to spite her mother. I guess that explains why she's so weird about kids.

 

We need more of Hook's backstory because every time Emma's issues with her parents come up, the way he deals with her has all kinds of "but ... parents! Don't miss this chance!" subtext.

 

I just can't with the conversation between Robin and Regina at the beginning. Yes, Regina, it's all about you and your pain. You're the only one suffering. And yeah, wiping a kid's memory is such a great idea. This show really has consent and agency issues.

[KR Vermont]

Well, the finale looks more interesting, anyway. Here's to my hopes not being dashed...(again)...

 

I did like the scene with Emma taking shots of Killian's rum while having a nice chat, so I suppose that means it's the last we'll see of any sweet Captain Swan, ha

[Curio]

We need more of Hook's backstory because every time Emma's issues with her parents come up, the way he deals with her has all kinds of "but ... parents! Don't miss this chance!" subtext.

 

We'll probably get a very rushed, somewhat retconned version of that backstory squeezed into the one centric episode he's allowed next season.

[Watt]

I'm always annoyed by the lead up episodes and then I always love the finale. I'm so excited.

[Bluerang1]

I really liked this episode! So many gems especially:

-Dark Star Pharmarcy

-Scary Dragon Bitch

-Explanation of why Regina HAD to adopt

-Regina's happy ending

-Regina overall slayed this episode and I'm not really a fan of hers.

 

They really couldn't have cast a more annoying actor as the author.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Bluerang1

[Shanna Marie]

I'm glad I ignored the interviews with the Idiots in Charge because they said this episode was going to be mostly about Robin and Regina and their issues, and it really wasn't. I guess the flashbacks were thematically about the related issues, but most of the episode seemed to be about other things, like Mal and Lily and Emma and her parents, via Hook.

 

I guess that's yet more evidence of how Regina-centric their world view is.

[Curio]

You know, for as sweet and touching as the Hook/Emma conversation was near the docks, it would have packed a lot bigger emotional punch if we had more any character interaction between Charming, Snow, and Hook while Emma was gone. If we had seen a conversation where Charming and Snow opened up to Hook about how they felt ashamed for what they did and had a heart-to-heart about being worried Emma would never forgive them, him encouraging Emma would have been a bit more realistic. But since the writers hate characterization scenes like that, I'm left watching that (still very lovely) Hook/Emma conversation wondering, "Wait, did Hook just gather all of that information about how Charming and Snow feel by observation? Is he just really good at reading people's emotions? Because he hasn't had a one-on-one conversation with Charming since 4.02 and I don't think he's ever had a one-on-one conversation with Snow."

Edited May 4, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

You know, for as sweet and touching as the Hook/Emma conversation was near the docks, it would have packed a lot bigger emotional punch if we had more any character interaction between Charming, Snow, and Hook while Emma was gone. If we had seen a conversation where Charming and Snow opened up to Hook about how they felt ashamed for what they did and had a heart-to-heart about being worried Emma would never forgive them, him encouraging Emma would have been a bit more realistic. But since the writers hate characterization scenes like that, I'm left watching that (still very lovely) Hook/Emma conversation wondering, "Wait, did Hook just gather all of that information about how Charming and Snow feel by observation? Is he just really good at reading people's emotions? Because he hasn't had a one-on-one conversation with Charming since 4.02 and I don't think he's ever had a one-on-one conversation with Snow."

I agree with you. What was everyone up to? Hook clearly spent his time with her parents. I decided that he's coming at it from the perspective of someone who has lost everyone in his life and would give a lot to have another chance at what she has. Yeah, Snowing were assholes for what they did (and the show has pretty much decided to gloss over everything that is wrong with Snow/Emma for a super quick resolution), bottom line for him is her parents live her, risked everything for her. She has a chance at having a mom and a dad, something he hasn't had in God knows how long.

[fictiongoddess]

4B has been so disappointing that I've gotten in the habit lately of not watching live or, sometimes, at all until about a week after the episode airs. I'm glad I watched live this week. Not because much of it wasn't tedious and unnecessary--it was, indeed--but there were some redeeming parts as well.

I think this may have been the ep with the best CS scene (not counting the date) all half-season. I especially liked that they were having a meaningful conversation about something that matters, and that Emma didn't just shut Hook down as though he isn't talking sense. And then she finally gets over herself enough to move on from her dark place. Finally, progress of the character development sort!

Speaking of Hook, will he ever be written as having any sense at all when it comes to taunting the Dark One? He's all kinds of savvy otherwise, but not with this. I'm so over that foolishness.

Regina's epiphany came too easily, and I just want Zelena to fall into a big black hole, so no joy for me there. Not sure yet what I think of Mal and Lily. I want to see where they go from here. And while it's always nice to see Cora, a little goes a long way.

I did like how Rumple consistently declined assistance when he was weak and in pain. That seemed very much in character, and RC played it very well.

As underwhelming as this show has generally become, I'm pleasantly surprised to say that I'm actually looking forward to the finale next week. It seems full of possibility, so I guess I'll be hoping that it doesn't end up a train wreck instead.

[Shanna Marie]

I can headcanon that Hook either desperately misses whatever family he did have and wouldn't let any disagreement get between him and his family if he had another chance or that he never had a relationship with his parents the way Emma has a chance to, but I agree that it would have had a lot more resonance if we'd seen a scene with him and the Charmings where maybe he listened to them the way Emma was refusing to, so he got the full explanation, or even where they deputized him to see if she'd listen to him. Or something.

 

It also bugs me that the way they were talking about the Charmings screwing up and then turning their lives around, it sounded like they'd been like Regina or Hook, living an ongoing life of evil that required them to make a drastic change to be better people, rather than people who were good, then had one big screwup, and then instantly regretted it. It's not like they spent decades or centuries being bad people before turning themselves around. It was a big screwup, but it wasn't exactly an entire lifetime of crime.

[Zuleikha]

I feel like I let out a huge held breath once this episode was over because spoilers had me expecting so much worse. Overall, I ended up thinking it was a decent episode that would have been better had there been three tweaks: a) Regina healed Lily's hand before poofing out because it just would have been polite, b) Regina and Robin explicitly discussing whether Robin wants to have the baby with Zelena, c) Regina having the author write something like "Zelena can never hurt another person again."

 

The show has this weird black/white dichotomy when it comes to acts of mercy that ends up with the "good" guys ending up looking like idiots. Zelena is still a dangerous, mentally unstable woman with powerful magic (if she can get the cuff off). It's not a good act for Regina to let Zelena go without doing something about it. Writing Zelena completely out of existence would be pretty dark, but the child could have been written out if Regina knew Robin preferred that (yes, that would be the equivalent of a forced abortion to Zelena but given that Zelena raped Robin to get the baby and is mentally unstable, I have no problem with that) and Zelena's magic could have been taken away. It's much like Snow giving Regina a controlled chance to re-embrace goodness in the execution scene back in whatever episode that was wasn't necessarily dumb, but Snow and Charming letting Regina go free without taking any steps to protect the wider populace from her was both stupid and irresponsible.

 

The eggnapping plot continues to be stupid, but the Lily/Maleficent reconciliation was surprisingly moving. Nicole and Agnes have both done a great job of making me care about Lily. The writers, however, have done a horrible job at making me understand why Rumple cared about or needed to revive Maleficent in the first place. 

 

Cora felt more Cora here than in "Bleeding Through," but I don't buy for a second that she really wanted Regina to have a child just because. I think Regina was right about the motivation. Even if Cora did think a child would help Regina's happiness, it's still more of Cora not caring to learn about what Regina really wants but just trying to make Regina do whatever Cora thinks is best. I did not think Cora was wrong about Robin Hood, though. I don't know anything about the White Rabbit, so I don't know how much of a retcon it was for Cora to be able to leave Wonderland, but I'm bummed that she didn't capture Henry Sr. (since we know that's something that happened) and we didn't get at least a handwave explanation for why Cora didn't come back to the Enchanted Forest more often or why in multiple other episodes, Regina seemed to feel like Cora was stuck in Wonderland.

 

I still despise Robin and Outlaw Queen. Here's a thought, Robin... if you feel like something's wrong with your wife who has recently been brought forward through time and frozen from an ice curse up to her heart and who you were more than willing to leave when you thought you had someone else, maybe refrain from babymaking activities until you guys know that you can repair your relationship. Marian turning out to be Zelena was the worst case scenario, but it's still a bad idea to add a baby to a relationship that wasn't working 

 

Yes, Regina, it's all about you and your pain. You're the only one suffering.

She didn't say the situation was all about her and her pain or that she was the only one suffering; she said that Zelena's motivation was all about making Regina suffer. Which was true. Zelena didn't care about Robin. He was just a means to hurt Regina.

[Curio]

Speaking of Hook, will he ever be written as having any sense at all when it comes to taunting the Dark One? He's all kinds of savvy otherwise, but not with this. I'm so over that foolishness.

 

I was okay with the taunting this episode because it was directly related to Emma and how Rumple didn't succeed with turning her dark. Hook seems the type where if he's given the chance to rub it in the face of the person (whether it's Rumple or some other villain) who tried to destroy the person he loves most in the world, he'd gladly take it every time. And considering Hook doesn't have magic, it's about the only thing he can do to agitate the Dark One.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Curio

[kili]

Regina's epiphany came too easily,

 

This seems to be the season of easy epiphanies. Ingrid's came from a letter her sister supposedly hastily wrote while in a storm-tossed, sinking ship and Regina's comes from being compared to her mother.

 

I actually think it's almost consistent for Regina to have an epiphany from being compared to her mother. I seem to recall in Season 2, Henry called her on controlling him and that was a call-back to Regina of how her mother controlled her.  She stopped.

 

Regina tends to slide into acting just like her mother, but a good way of pulling her out of it is telling her she is acting like her mother.

 

LOL at Cora  thinking that the Sheriff of Nottingham was a good match for her daughter. It completely demonstrates once again that  Cora does not know Regina at all and what terrible taste Cora has in men. Seriously, the guy just oozes creep. And, once again, Regina just harms herself while trying to hurt Cora.

 

In other news, I hope that Isaac meets a sticky end. He's controlling people and just interested in his own fanfic. What a weasel. And not an ounce of gratitude to Emma who freed him from the book.

[KingOfHearts]

With Cora, her motivations have always been half power and half Regina. I believe she genuinely cares about her, but only in her own way. She wanted her daughter's love, but without sacrificing her own selfish desires. Yes Regina's happiness was part of the plan, but it wasn't cake without eating it too. In a way, both what Regina believed and Cora said were correct.

Regina's barrenness does explain her obsession with adopting children and never attempting to cultivate her own, but I found it unimpressive. It wasn't exactly jaw dropping, nor does it change any status quo. We've seen infertility healed before for Snow, so it's not like a fixed circumstance. Perhaps the writers thought it was going to be a shocking reveal for her character, but I guessed it right from the bar conversation with Robin. It just didn't add a whole lot to the story. I didn't see the parallels to the Zelena situation or what it had to do with it, either.

Edited May 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[twoods]

Captain Swan are amazing. Their long hug when she got back from NY was cuter than their conversation. Don't screw this up writers!

Why couldn't Zelena just die already? Interested to see the switch with the Heroes and Villians. I'm worried that Rumple will kill Hook with his storytelling...

[Camera One]

I don't think my expectations can be any lower at this point, and this episode was okay, which is more than I can say for most of the episodes in 4B.  This episode had a lot of "That was nice, but....... .... .... ..."  

 

As Dani-Elle said, we shouldn't be surprised by this point, but all the nice moments had no buildup.  At this point, I have to be satisfied with the morsels.  Among them:

- Emma reconciling with Snow/Charming was nice.  The buildup was basically nothing, but at least Snow got to acknowledge that she let Emma down again, and Snow/Emma actually got to have a face-to-face emotional conversation for the first time since "Going Home".  

- Maleficent saying that she wanted to think about the future instead of dwelling on the past was nice.  Who the hell knows where that came from.  

- Lily's conversation with Maleficent after she became human again was nice.  Who knows why she suddenly let go of her vendetta, but whatever.

- Regina acknowledging that her own worst enemy is herself and her happy ending was finally feeling at home in the world was nice.  Why develop this gradually throughout 4B when you could just throw it out there willy nilly.

 

It's bizarre how these writers even had their fictional writer declare their love for Regina, yet they would write a scene of her murdering innocent people at a wedding and then flash to present-day where they have her say stuff like "Life kicked me in the teeth again".  

 

I liked Hook being supportive of Emma and their talk (the writers as usual went overboard in overemphasizing Snowing's crimes against humanity), though it was a bit odd she didn't get much of a role in the episode.  You'd think she would keep an eye on Lily who might begin to manifest magic, or she might resume seeking the Author to get the answers she was looking for.

 

I had to laugh when they had Gold stumbling around like he was about to croak any moment.  Such super fast onset symptoms for this heart blackening disease that had practically no signs.  

 

As usual, the "heroes" had to be dumber than a box of hair, with Regina letting Isaac hold on to that ink.  I didn't think Hook gloating to Gold at the beginning was that bright, considering it gave him a heads-up that Emma wasn't turned evil, though it turned out to be inconsequential.  I have a hard time believing Gold wouldn't have realized himself that he could have used Lily's blood.  I guess as someone else suggested, maybe he didn't know.   But what exactly was the loophole that Gold suggested to Isaac?

 

Even though the Sheriff was smarmy as hell, I actually thought the had had way more sexual chemistry with Regina than Robin Hood did.  I can't believe Robin Hood was already saying to Regina at the bar that maybe their happy ending was still possible though messy.  So we don't get to see any shock that his wife is now confirmed to be dead?

 

The Cora flashback was just pointless, with so many dumb moments.  Regina was furious with Cora, but her anger just evaporated when Cora remembered her favorite dress?  She drank that potion just to spite Cora?  In the end, it was Cora's "the only one standing in the way of happiness is you" which gave a light-bulb moment to Regina?  As others said above, there were so many more satisfying ways to have Regina reach that obvious revelation.

 

So are we supposed to believe that the Writer actually has the ability to erase someone from existence?  He can change things that have already happened?   We're one episode away from the end of this season, and we still have little idea what he can or cannot do. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

This episode wasn't rage inducing, so I guess that's something. I agree that it wasn't bad, but I was just bored. Too many loose ends were just quickly and easily tied up. I guess it says a lot about how this season has gone that I can't get up the energy to even care about the lack of payoff.

 

I have no interesting comments about the episode, but you can read them anyway:

 

- Poor Emma stuck in a car from New York to Maine with Zelena. At least it appeared she took the dream catcher and hopefully the rest of Neal's stuff for Henry. 

 

- Oh Zelena, don't you know? Regina already did murder the mother of his child and Robin didn't even blink.

 

- The Sheriff of Nottingham is still hot. And I'd totally ship him with Cora. They seem like a nice evil pairing.

 

- Poor Colin got saddled with lines like "I can tell that your heart is uneasy." Who says that kind of crap? I do love that Hook was trying to get Emma in a nice calm state by looking at the ocean and Emma was all "That's nice. Alcohol please." I feel you there Emma.

 

- I don't get why the Author can't just write his own story. Why does he need someone else to dictate it? Also, why does he want to write Rumpel's exciting fanfic?

 

- If they want me to believe that Regina gets screwed the most, maybe they shouldn't show her ripping a man's heart out and crushing it at his wedding. Who got screwed the most in just this episode? Regina who has true love with her son, a great house & job and her soulmate, or the nice man who was murdered and now lies rotting in the ground because Regina was a petty bitch? I'm going with dead = most screwed. 

 

- Once again, Rumpel wins. I know it's not going to work out for him the way he thinks it will, but I'm just so tired of everyone being idiots such that the villain gets what they want.

 

I'm sure next week will be fun, but I'm not super enthused. Even if it's great, I'm not sure I'll be back for season five.

Edited May 4, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[HoodlumSheep]

I was okay with the taunting this episode because it was directly related to Emma and how Rumple didn't succeed with turning her dark. Hook seems the type where if he's given the chance to rub it in the face of the person (whether it's Rumple or some other villain) who tried to destroy the person he loves most in the world, he'd gladly take it every time. And considering Hook doesn't have magic, it's about the only thing he can do to agitate the Dark One.

I'm okay and not okay with Killy rubbing it in Rumple's face. One one hand, has he still not learn his lesson? Especially with what happened in 4a? But then it's still in character too a bit.The gloating (to me) came off as part "take that! My girlfriend is awesome and amazing and is too strong to fall into darkness!" Mixed with the typical "I hate your guts!"

I actually don't think it's possible for either of them to ever stop trying to taunt/antagonize/screw each other over. They just can't help it. They are destined to be mortal enemies forever. Kinda like how Emma and Lily's fates are supposed to be forever intertwined.

GoldenHook Best Enemies Forever!

Edited May 4, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[BoPeeps]

Tidbits tossed. Appreciated, but it is no longer enough. The loyal viewers deserve better.

A whole lot of stupid going on.

Mediocrity abounds.

Perhaps the new format should be half season premiere, half season finale. Second half season premiere, then two hour made for TV movie finale ... and scrap the middle crap.

Really, what IS the point of the mindless rambling drek this line of "story telling" has become?

Sadly resigned to habitual watching.

Hope?

Not much.

[MDKNIGHT]

Welcome to We've Been Reading the Internet Theater.  So you've been rolling your eyes at a woman on a modern tv show making having a man her happy ending?  Well we'll just have Regina flat out say Robin ISN'T her happy ending, he is merely part of the environment of her happy ending.  So you think the characters are morons for needing the author to write them a happy ending?  Have Regina realize she has been her own damned problem all along and all she has to do is STOP.  She doesn't need the author.  While I think it was a misstep to have Regina kill yet another innocent this ep reminding us she doesn't deserve forgiveness I (since I've always argued that Rumple is worse than Regina) liked that Rumple HASN'T learned anything and is going ahead with the author. 

 

I think the big guy mopping in the psych hospital is the Indian from One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest.  How the heck does Regina have the power to put anybody down there and how is it nobody is aware real Psychiatry doesn't  work like this? 

[Whodunnit]

I submit to you two examples in this episode of Idiocy solely for plot purposes (a.k.a. lazy writing):

1) Snow running towards the angry dragon that wants revenge. What did you think you could do, Snow?

2) Regina leaving the Author with the special ink, and not swishing away the quill magically when he started to write something down after she told him not to.

There are other examples of idiocy that related to pre-existing character traits. For example, it seems that Hook will always think that this time he can taunt the dark one without it coming back to bite him later.

[myril]

Decent episode. If getting over the overall lack of depth the writing of the show has. I agree somewhat with Dani-Ellie, if one tunes down expectation it can work on some levels. For me that practically works though only if I take every episode kinda on its own and forget about most of the build up or lack of is happening over the course of the season, the whole show. Out of context, and often with much fankwank and headcanon some of the moments can work, be emotional and gripping.

 

Like Emma forgiving and reconciling with her mother. Beautiful emotions. Unfortunately can't quite quiet the little voice in my head, saying, been there, done that, so what will it be next time? Not that life isn't sometimes  like that, that stress comes up again and again, sometimes taking different forms, sometimes being pretty close to things one thought to have gotten over. I am back to the feeling I got the first time during the Neverland arc - it was for me never about the place itself but always about the character development that I felt like was running in rather shallow, boring circles, forced to surfarce more by circumstances than by comprehensible inner dynamic. That hasn't changed, so I now take the beauty of the moment as just that, the beauty of a moment. I expect it to puff out like a dream in the morning, maybe already in the next episode but likely next season. But it makes the show shallow entertainment and as it is rather repetitive than unfolding it becomes boring.

 

The same with Maleficent and Lily. Beautiful moment, heart wrenching, beautifully acted. But can't calm enough the voice in the back telling me, it's just a moment, don't hope for more.

 

By the way, I think there is something fundamentally wrong, if it takes alcohol to kinda escape the escapism to make the escapism work.

 

Was entertaining to see Barbara Hershey's Cora again, she manages to give the character the right kind of ambiguity to keep people uncertain if Cora meant what she said, or make us guess, how she meant what she said. And all this coldblooded and no chewing the scenes or crazy fashion extravagance involved. She is classy.

 

I had expected a scenario close to what they did in this episode reading the teaser for the episode,. Cora trying to get Regina to have a kid, a royale heir, to ensure her line of power, was believable. And it's funny, that Cora, or the writers, used Nottingham for this charade - faintly remember some people suggesting that Nottingham could have been a better fit for the Evil Queen than Robin.

 

Pretty much ignoring the Author meta, or attempt of a meta, it's not working for me, despite that I think, the idea is basically interesting. It's like with the pixie dust, could have been a great tool to explore deep going questions of fate, existence and influence of higher powers and free will, but this show has no such depth to make such a story arc enjoyable. And this Author story gets more confusing and holey with every episode, this one was no exception.

 

But laughed at this:

Isaac: "You know as well as I, there are forces greater than all of us. But no matter how you got that, gosh, I am a fan. I'd be happy to write whatever you want if... you only had the ink. "

Yeah, the pain of an author: higher powers always meddling with creativity, and then the constant struggle to get the ink you need to write at all.

[patchwork]

I kept waiting for Cora to snatch Henry Sr. but alas the Show will have at least one more chance to retcon Cora's character beyond repair. Barbara Hershey's Cora is great and I love the effortless scenery chewing but after Bleeding Through I'm scared of what they'll do to her just to sell the plot du jour.  

 

I'm not surprised the Author scampered back to Rumple, I think he would have done that regardless of Regina's actions, because with him the Author gets to re-write everyone's stories not just tweak them here and there.  

 

CS are lovely and I dread the writers doing to them what they have done to Snowing this season. 

[FurryFury]

Frankly I'm amazed the show hasn't ruined Captain Swan yet (relegating them to the background was the best possible decision, otherwise you get Zelenagate or something of comparable quality). But I'm sure it's coming soon, considering its track record.

Edited May 4, 2015 by FurryFury

[Rhetorica]

I wanted to see a mother daughter Dragon smack down. Oh well... I'm looking forward to a complete flip of the characters next week. This is story is boring.

[YaddaYadda]

It's not like they haven't taken a rock at Captain Swan every now and then,  you know, the hand blackmail that started just as that and devolved into Emma nearly getting sucked into the hat and him nearly dying.  You know the elephant in the room that they will never ever address!  That was HUGE in terms of where should this relationship go now, Hook?  Why did you do it?  Do you have self-esteem issues beneath all the smooth talk and swagger?  What's wrong with you, you idiot?  Do you not trust me?  This is the second time you chose to keep something huge from me and I wanna smack you upside the head with a frying pan.

 

It's like they decided to skip the timeline ahead by 6 weeks in order to not address anything significant that happened.

 

Speaking of Hook doing semi or outright stupid stuff, I wonder if him not taunting Gold wasn't part of his plan to make his heart to coal quicker.  In which case, well played Hook, but you should have taken the Author with you, so that was short-sighted.

 

So, Regina?  Miracle baby as a reward?  I'm pretty sure that will happen eventually.  I don't understand why it took her so long for her epiphany.  She went from 0 to 100 just like that and I didn't really see the development where she finally decided that what she had was enough for her and that everything is just part of the bigger picture and that she is happy with what she has.

 

So as they say, anyway...

[Curio]

Snow running towards the angry dragon that wants revenge. What did you think you could do, Snow?

 

Yeah, that whole scene was very poorly written and directed. What did Snow think she was trying to accomplish by running towards a fire breathing dragon who wants to kill her? Why couldn't Snow have been doing something heroic like running to grab Maleficent and telling her to give her daughter some space, and while she's doing that, then have Lily whack her with the tail? The way the director shot the scene, Snow just looks like this stupid person running straight towards trouble for no good reason whatsoever.

 

Also, the way they shot the scene where Emma is talking to Snow while Snow's injured head rested on the rock was really awkward. Again, why did the director think that angle looked good? Ginny looked like she awkwardly had to strain her neck back while having that conversation. Why couldn't Charming have been holding her neck up into a normal, non-spine-breaking position? And then it looked like she was faking how injured she was because she immediately shot up and hugged Emma when Emma said she forgave her. Come on, Ron Underwood. I expect better from the guy who directed Lost Girl, Snow Drifts, and White Out.

 

And then there was the awkward editing between the flashbacks and the present day. I would be ecstatic if this was the last flashback we ever got of Regina, because her flashbacks now are: 1) not doing her character any favors anymore, 2) retcon the history of the show, 3) keep reminding us of how she probably doesn't deserve a happy ending, and 4) don't even align with the present storyline very well. If you were to watch the asylum scene between Zelena, Regina, and Isaac without all the random cutaways to a flashback or other scene, it would be glaringly obvious how poorly Regina's epiphany came to her in that moment. It literally went from 0 to 100. But because the writers like to manipulate the audience's emotions by squeezing in random flashback scenes that are emotional, they tried to extend that asylum scene longer, but there were still a lot of jarring cuts that took me out of the moment.

 

It's nice that some of you have lowered your expectations enough to accept this drivel, but I'm still going to call out the writers, directors, and editors who are professionals at their jobs and need a kick in the ass to turn this show around.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Curio

[Primetimer]

Maleficent is finally reunited with her daughter and Regina gets closer to her happy ending...but of course nothing comes easily. At least there are fabulous outfits!

Read the story

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Regina said that Dr. Whale is the OB at the hospital but he was also the doctor who was in charge of monitoring Charming when he was in a coma in S1 and he was the trauma doctor during the flying monkey attack. Can I just assume that Dr. Whale is the ONLY doctor in that entire hospital (and the town of Storybrooke for that matter)?

 

While I love seeing Hook and Emma portrayed as a functional adult relationship where they trust each other and support each other and communicate with each other, part of me wishes that Hook had more to do than just be Emma's sounding board and cheerleader. I mean, honestly, I get that sometimes that's the role you have with your partner when they are going through stuff (as Emma is) but Hook is capable of being more than a schmoopy pirate. The other part of me agrees with the people who have mentioned at various points during 4B that at least his minimal screen time means the writers aren't totallys screwing up Hook or his relationship with Emma.

 

 

 

Anyone side eye the line where Zelena said "Robin would never forgive you for killing the mother of his child." to Regina? I know she didn't do it this time but that just doesn't seem to matter anymore. Hell Robin being raped doesn't matter.

I wish Regina's response would have been along the lines of "How will Robin feel about me killing his rapist?"

 

It totally annoyed me that Regina and Robin were both so nonchalant about giving Roland a forgetting potion. I have watched way too many shows where people have their memories taken away for me to think that's anything but brain rape. I don't care how selfish or selfless your reason is for taking away someone's memories. If they don't consent, that is a serious violation. I remember thinking I couldn't believe Willow would do that to Tara (on BtVS) and even on The Vampire Diaries when it was intended to help take away painful memories, it was still not cool. When Regina mentioned that Roland would lose some time but other than that, he would be fine, I was reminded of the total mind fuck of My Sweet Audrina. That poor girl thought she was going crazy because she had lost so much time due to her family trying to take away her really bad memories. So, no, Regina and Robin, don't do that to Roland.

 

 

 

the very traditionally dressed nurse who gave Regina the stink-eye was a highlight of the episode for me

I was convinced that the nurse was going to let Zelena out as soon as Regina was gone, but I was wrong. Turns out she was just the average run of the mill Regina hater.

 

When Isaac started getting impatient to write something, I knew that at the very least he was going to write something that Regina didn't want written. I didn't think his first act would be to run straight to Rumpelstiltskin though.

 

We need more of Hook's backstory because every time Emma's issues with her parents come up, the way he deals with her has all kinds of "but ... parents! Don't miss this chance!" subtext.

I think there is some Hook childhood abandonment backstory, but I think it's also that Emma grew up as a foster child wishing she knew her parents and now that she has them, Hook doesn't want to see her continue to shut them out (which, as she pointed out, was hurting herself) because she's angry at them and trying to punish them. You can be mad at someone without freezing them out.

 

What does the TS, TW acronym stand for? I tried googling it and couldn't find anything that seemed to be applicable here!

Edited May 4, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Dani-Ellie]

It's nice that some of you have lowered your expectations enough to accept this drivel, but I'm still going to call out the writers, directors, and editors who are professionals at their jobs and need a kick in the ass to turn this show around.

 

Responding in the fandom thread.

[kili]

So, Regina?  Miracle baby as a reward?  I'm pretty sure that will happen eventually.

 

Wouldn't they just have to have sex in the land without magic? To save Marian from her "poisoning", that was the solution.

   

I can't believe Robin Hood was already saying to Regina at the bar that maybe their happy ending was still possible though messy.  So we don't get to see any shock that his wife is now confirmed to be dead?

 

That's good old Robin. Keeping it classy forever. "Robin Hood, you just found out that your wife was murdered, what are you going to do next?" "I'm going back to my mistress! WooHoo!"

 

    - Lily's conversation with Maleficent after she became human again was nice.  Who knows why she suddenly let go of her vendetta, but whatever.

 

I actually kind of bought that. It's one thing to spend your life dreaming of turning into a dragon and getting revenge alongside your mother and quite another to actually do it. Lily could easily have killed Snow, but she chose to fly away. She was served the opportunity to kill Snow up on a silver platter and she just couldn't bring herself to actually do it. Plus, she struggled as a dragon and found out it wasn't as easy as she thought. Then, her mother comes along and offers unconditional love and she realizes that's what she always wanted.

 

    - Maleficent saying that she wanted to think about the future instead of dwelling on the past was nice.  Who the hell knows where that came from.

 

That is fairly consistent with Once's Mal. When we first met her, she had come to terms and was encouraging Regina not to cast the dark curse.

[Writing Wrongs]

I forgot to mention: WTF, Emma can heal now? I guess she's got the full use of all powers now.

[Curio]

What does the TS, TW acronym stand for? I tried googling it and couldn't find anything that seemed to be applicable here!

 

This Show; These Writers. As in: only on this show and only with these writers can these ridiculous things happen.

[TigerLynx]

I liked the Emma and Hook scenes.

 

I wanted Mal to turn into a dragon to.

 

The Author is an annoying little jerk that just wants to cause trouble.

[YaddaYadda]

So I noticed in the NYC scenes that Zelena actually does have a baby bump.  We know it's been nine weeks since she left Storybrooke.  Is this like an accelerated pregnancy or something?

[Mathius]

The Author is an annoying little jerk that just wants to cause trouble.

That's why I like the character and especially the actor, I am dumbfounded that I've seen some people claim Patrick Fischler is miscast because he isn't charismatic enough or something. That's the whole point: he's not some charismatic force who controls fate like Regina and others thought he'd be, he's just some asshole you could find anywhere who was mistakenly given too much power.

I actually kind of bought that. It's one thing to spend your life dreaming of turning into a dragon and getting revenge alongside your mother and quite another to actually do it. Lily could easily have killed Snow, but she chose to fly away. She was served the opportunity to kill Snow up on a silver platter and she just couldn't bring herself to actually do it. Plus, she struggled as a dragon and found out it wasn't as easy as she thought. Then, her mother comes along and offers unconditional love and she realizes that's what she always wanted.

Agreed, she seemed really shaken up after turning back human and clearly realized that the awesome evil vengeful fantasy she had wasn't so fun after all.

And I loved that, Emma's darkness in her aside, Lily owns the fact that SHE is the one who always drives people who want to care for her away (her adoptive family, Emma, etc.) See people, THIS is why you can't honestly compare Lily to Regina, even at a younger age she's actually far more self-aware.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Mathius

[Curio]

I am dumbfounded that I've seen some people claim Patrick Fischler is miscast because he isn't charismatic enough or something. That's the whole point: he's not some charismatic force who controls fate like Regina and others thought he'd be, he's just some asshole you could find anywhere who was mistakenly given too much power.

 

I've actually been enjoying Fischler a lot in the role. I still hate the author plot with a burning passion, but Isaac himself hasn't been a terrible addition to the show. I just wish he wasn't so powerful and wish he couldn't control free will all willy-nilly, but that's more of a plot-related issue than a character issue.

[YaddaYadda]

THIS is why you can't honestly compare Lily to Regina, even at a younger age she's actually far more self-aware.

 

There is no comparison to be made between Lily and Regina.  I think it's a bit dishonest to make that comparison.

 

So if the Author hadn't been locked up in the book and forced to write the story as it was, he was planning to write a book that had that new page 23 in it?  Honestly...very, very confusing!

[Mathius]

There is no comparison to be made between Lily and Regina. I think it's a bit dishonest to make that comparison.

Yeah, but it's one many people have made since Lily debuted as a little Regina lookalike. Last week's episode where she was "whining about her life" also drew comparisons, even though she had legitimate gripes and never denied her own culpability in her misery to the point where she said it'd be better if Emma shot her.

I've actually been enjoying Fischler a lot in the role. I still hate the author plot with a burning passion, but Isaac himself hasn't been a terrible addition to the show. I just wish he wasn't so powerful and wish he couldn't control free will all willy-nilly, but that's more of a plot-related issue than a character issue.

Yeah, but I'm glad it's not a power that is inheritely his and was gifted to him by the Sorcerer (I'm actually interested in seeing that backstory in the finale.)

Edited May 4, 2015 by Mathius

[crystalwearer]

The Cora flashback was just pointless, with so many dumb moments.  Regina was furious with Cora, but her anger just evaporated when Cora remembered her favorite dress?  She drank that potion just to spite Cora?

More evidence for my headcanon that Cora put a subtle enchantment on Regina to keep her from plotting to attack Cora directly. Something that flushes away the intellectual thought process but leaves the emotion behind the impulse intact (i.e., leaving Regina with a lot of directionless anger to pour into her magic or her hapless targets -- including herself, apparently). This isn't the first time we've seen Regina flip to Cora's side on a dime for no good reason and the only time Regina did attack Cora, Rumpel was there and could have suspended Cora's spell temporarily.

[Dani-Ellie]

So if the Author hadn't been locked up in the book and forced to write the story as it was, he was planning to write a book that had that new page 23 in it?  Honestly...very, very confusing!

 

I think all Page 23 is is essentially part of his fanfic. He wrote up a what-if canon divergence thought experiment (which, hee!).

Edited May 4, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Mathius]

I think all Page 23 is is essentially part of his fanfic. He wrote up a what-if canon divergence thought experiment (which, hee!).

Also, I called it that the Author didn't send that page to Regina, it was most likely the Sorcerer.