S03.E21: Al Sah-him

[apinknightmare]

Wasn't Nyssa already calling herself the Heir to the Demon when Malcolm first met her?

 

The Undertaking was only in a small section of the city and one he didn't live in.  If the point of destroying the city is that you have nowhere to go back to, he should have done it in the financial and millionaires' mansion community.  But with this show?  You could be right.

 

She was, but who's to say it wasn't always Ra's plan to disinherit her? He's clearly up to some crazy shit that she's not down for, so it makes sense to me that he might try to install someone with a mindset more like his own. Which is also why I think Oliver's getting played and Malcolm was promised the position again. 

 

The earthquake machines set solely under The Glades is a definite hole, but they could always revise that (because I don't think they had this plan all along) by saying that he had other machines set to go off but they didn't for whatever reason. I know Malcolm had redundancies, but...another hole, whatever!

Edited April 30, 2015 by apinknightmare

[quarks]

Surprisingly strong Team Arrow moments for an episode where Oliver wasn't really part of the team.

 

Good things:

 

1. No Ray. (Sorry, Ray fans!)  This wasn't his episode.

 

2. Thea/Felicity bonding! DarthOliver!

 

3. A kickass Thea, in costume, coolly shooting her brother. Also, a kickass Thea refusing to give up. I am down for this. Turn her into a full time Team Arrow member, now.  

 

4. Felicity carrying weapons in her coat and telling a LoA member not to touch her. Loved it.  

 

5. Speaking of that moment, loved that you can interpret Oliver tonight in two different ways: flat out evil and completely brainwashed, or playing a long con.  On the side of flat out evil: the way he killed the Diggle hallucination. On the side of playing a long con: he went well out of his way not to injure anyone on Team Arrow tonight. Also, he kidnapped Lyla, not the baby, and was ready to return her unharmed. And he had to know that Felicity could easily be carrying weapons in her coat - he's the same guy that armed Felicity with a syringe last year.  And yet he told Maseo not to search her. 

 

Plus, there was his final "Uh, what?" look at Ra's little marriage proposal.

 

I'm inclined to think long con, but well played either way, show.

 

6. Nyssa. Absolutely badass, absolutely willing to do the honorable thing and turn herself over to the League.  Also, she's incredibly hot. Bonus points for calling Laurel out on the lying and then saying she really had more important things on her mind. I cheered.

 

7. This was another win for David Ramsey tonight - nailing it as both a hallucination and later as a real person. Plus we got a Diggle/Felicity hug. YAY!

 

Questionable things:

 

1. Dear television gods. If we are very, very good, is there a chance that we can get Arrow more money so that the show can stop having fights on the same two roofs? While I'm at it, can we have everyone occasionally meet in a different alley, or, failing that, move the damn props around the alley a bit? And not use a set that Flash used two episodes ago?  

 

2. The Canary Cry. Great concept, but unfortunately, as others are arguing, this is not something that looks great on screen. A pity, since it was Laurel's most effective moment of the episode and the first time she's really looked like she's from a comic book. 

 

3. So, the League of Assassins. All honorable and all about only killing those who need to die right up until they release cholera into a major city and now, a virus into Starling City.  Well done, League.

 

4. Oliver, I know you've been wounded a lot and you probably shrug off most of this stuff by now, but....an arrow in the wrist barely makes you blink? There's nerves in that area!

 

5. Thea's wardrobe. Let us not dwell on this, and hope that her shirt is swiftly, swiftly forgotten and never brought back to this show again.

 

6. I get why Felicity couldn't immediately tell Thea the truth about Roy, but waiting three weeks seems a bit much.

 

7. And, well....this goes back to the issues of crossovers again, but here's the thing, Team Arrow: just a few episodes back, over in Central City, you were able to break through Barry's murderous rage with some whirling colors. Yes, I admit I complained about the actual effectiveness of this method over on the Flash forum, and I stand by my complaint, but my point is, you know this sort of thing can and has been broken. I realize that Team Flash is going through some major problems of their own right now, but Felicity is standing right in the middle of a high tech area which easily could make a little color flashing screen that they could aim at Oliver. It might not work, granted, but it should have at least been brought up.

 

It's one thing not to be able to call on Team Flash for help whenever; it's another thing to forget things you actually did.

 

Bad things:

 

1. I've mostly enjoyed the flashbacks this season. That said, it should not have taken 21 episodes to convince us that the flashbacks did, indeed, have a plot point - something that could have been solved if the earlier flashbacks had shown us Oliver becoming fluent in Chinese and Japanese, getting continued physical and weapons training, and so on. Yes, we got a bit of that in the earlier part of the season, when ARGUS was sorta training Oliver, and in episode 8 with the "is torture a good idea? Yes/no," but not much. That would have made the "oh, yes, the Hong Kong scenes do have a plot point" a bit less of a letdown. 

 

2. Speaking of the flashbacks - Arrow, you've already flat out told us that the little kid is going to die. Stop prolonging this.  It's leading to wasting time running around after the little kid instead of convincing us that the flashbacks have another point besides setting up the threat to Starling City in the finale.

 

3. Ra's Al Ghul's plan to marry off his daughter to Oliver.  Where do I begin?  1) Ra's, after all the time and energy you just spent recruiting the guy, you're going to pair him up with a woman who doesn't like him very much, and put her in a position where she can kill him the moment they have a private moment?  Great planning, Ra's. 2)  She's gay.  3) Why do you want someone you consider a traitor married to your heir?  What I'm saying, Ra's, is that I think we all see why you need to step down from this position.

 

And now, Laurel:

 

I had hopes. I really did.  And for a minute or two there, during the French fry scene, they were even fulfilled - the Nyssa/Laurel friendship is great stuff. Her banter with Nyssa about a normal life was one of the best scenes Laurel has had all season, and, along with her scenes over on Flash, gave me real hopes that we're getting a Laurel we can cheer for.

 

And yet:

 

Number of times Laurel fails as an attorney this episode: The one bright spot of Laurel's existence this episode: that didn't come up. Although, come to think of it, her calling Nyssa an "innocent" does lead me to sorta question how, exactly, she defines innocent, but let us move on.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante this episode:  Six. 1. Needing to be rescued by Nyssa in her first scene of the episode  2. Failing to notice that the guy she was fighting had two knives, not one. 3. Deciding that she would rather go get food than keep rescuing people (although since that led to her best scene of the episode, I guess I can give her a pass on that one), 4, Ignoring Nyssa's explicit instructions and going after her, which immediately led to all of the other negative events of the episode, like, Laurel, you are aware that Lyla would not have been kidnapped if you had listened to Nyssa? Made worse with the reveal that Ra's wasn't intending to kill Nyssa at all, so, like, triple thanks, Laurel.  (The only thing that will mitigate this is if the later Team Arrow planning included Felicity or someone replacing the virus in Nyssa's sword with something harmless, but even then.) 5. Letting Maybe Evil Oliver get away, even with her Canary Cry. 6. Disabling the person she was trying to rescue with the Canary Cry, 7, Failing to save Nyssa after all that, like THANKS LAUREL, THAT WAS ALL VERY HELPFUL. NOW YOUR FRIEND HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED BY THE LEAGUE OF ASSASSINS (which is actually ok because it's what Nyssa wanted but you certainly didn't achieve your goals) AND DIGGLE HAS HAD HIS FAITH IN OLIVER COMPLETELY BROKEN.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being this episode: Six. 1. As Nyssa pointed out, lying again - this time because she didn't want to lose someone, which, ok, Laurel, except did it not occur to you that eventually Nyssa might realize that Oliver wasn't around all that much, and might start asking questions, and that Nyssa is almost certainly the person in Starling City who knows the most about the League of Assassins and therefore the person who might actually have a clue or two about getting Oliver out?  (Ok, she didn't, but still.) 2. Making Nyssa's completely honorable decision all about her, 3, Guilt tripping Diggle and Felicity into helping her save the woman who kidnapped her mother late last year because she doesn't want to be alone again, leading directly to Lyla's kidnapping, 4, Jumping on Diggle for saying that Nyssa needed to turn herself in, given that hey, Laurel, it's his wife and the mother of his kid at stake, and also, Nyssa has been trying to turn herself in, Laurel.  Diggle and Nyssa have a point here, is what I'm saying. 5, Not going to check on Thea, even though the last time Laurel saw Thea, Thea was shooting her own brother with an arrow like, Laurel, I know you're upset about  Nyssa and need the comfort of French fries and a milkshake (and go ahead and eat them, Laurel! It's ok!) but still. 

 

It's an alarming return to the trend of Laurel only thinking about how events affect her, not how they affect others, especially alarming given that she's supposedly a hero now. Combined with Laurel needing to get rescued yet again (seriously, Arrow, is there any chance in hell that we can go more than three episodes without needing to rescue Laurel?  (I just did a quick count, and of the 20 episodes that Laurel has been in this season, including ones like the previous one where she's basically just had a cameo, she's needed to be rescued in ten of them. That's a problem.)

 

So yay on Nyssa/Laurel bonding moments. Mostly yay on Laurel trying to stand up for the right thing for once with Team Arrow.  Nay on the rest.

[apinknightmare]

WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME THIS. 

 

YOU SHOULD TRY IT, IT IS GLORIOUS

[Guest]

I'm just watching now and there are some great individual scenes but as a whole this episode is meh. So predictable.

Love the Thea/Felicity scenes. It only took three years but they were on point.

Also Lyla is badass and I adore her. All the women were great tonight.

[Morrigan2575]

WIth Diggle, Thea shot him before he could use his sword but again, he wasn't mid swing. He was holding back. The fight they had wasn't anything Dig hadn't done before. They sparred all the time. He could make it real without hurting anyon

That wasn't Oliver holding back, that was dramatic call back to the earlier Oliver "Diggle" fight. The sword pose and even the speech was a call back designed to amp up tension in the viewers.

I don't know if Oliver is brainwashed or not but I find it odd that people seem to think Not!Brainwashed Oliver is the better option. He just assassinated a innocent man, kidnapped Lyla, sliced Diggle up and almost assassinated Nyssa all to.what? Get close enough to assassinate Ra's? He had several opportunities already.this episode where he could have shoved a sword in Ra's back.

[statsgirl]

Who did Oliver assassinate?

 

I think he had to kidnap someone to bring Nyssa out to play the long con and Lyla is the one who can best take care of herself.  Notice that he didn't say anything to her other than "Quiet", didn't engage or explain.  SA did say that he was ashamed of Oliver's actions in this episode and skewering Diggle could be part of that.

 

There must be a longer game than assassinating Ra's at the first chance because  presumably Oliver wants to get back safely to Starling City and his old life, not be cannon fodder for the ninjas who would jump him if he killed Ra's now.

 

Felicity said "Don't you dare touch me" to Maseo when he was going to search her for weapons.  Maseo looked at Oliver and Oliver nodded, as if to say "it's okay, don't search her". And it turned out that Felicity was the one carrying weapons, as we found out when she ran to hug Lyla and Lyla emerged with guns blazing.

 

If Oliver were really brainwashed, wouldn't he have insisted Felicity be treated like the others?

 

 

I used to dip a couple of my french fries from McDonalds into their vanilla soft serves. It's surprisingly good! Alas, I've outgrown McDonalds. 

McDonalds is trying to pull you back in with a "healthy" adult menu.

 

 

How are they still a secret? How do they think they're going to get away with whipping out an entire city? Starling City does not go down easily, and even if they did, the entire world will be hunting for the people responsible.

Seriously. They're like the Keystone Kops of assassins.

Edited April 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, I really don't get what the deal is with the League here. What is their purpose? Do they actually work as assassins? Do they kill evil people? Or do they just sit around in robes, babbling on about honor, like a bunch of Klingons dressed in black pajamas? Why do they think they can kill everyone in an entire major city! This aint the Punic Wars anymore! You cant just burn a city to the ground and salt the earth where it stood, just because you don't like its topiary or something. Its the modern age! I think that modern militaries can find them! They are killing millions of people in the most powerful country in the world! How do you see this going? The whole world will be after them! And they're going to fight them, how? With bows and arrow, and their smoke bombs? Scary! Real scary against a few dozen tanks. And the league pretty much sucks at keeping secrets, so everyone would know. What is the POINT?

Edited April 30, 2015 by tennisgurl

[La Dee Da]

I hope that dude Oliver killed at the beginning wasn't some poor backpacker who got lost in the mountains.   

Seriously though I did think it was, like Sara, a very well executed episode full of so much stupid and offensive plot crap.

 

I think this is my ultimate reaction to this episode as well.  There are some very good scenes (that baby!  too much!) and good progression based on (non-NP based) logical character reactions.  Kudos to the transitional shots, which were extra creative tonight, particularly the transition from the not-happily engaged couple to the two corpses in Hong Kong.   But the episode was built on the most obvious plot points possible (the arranged marriage, the brainwashing, the "turning" against the team) and a story plan that starts with a twist and then tries to work its way backward. 

 

No one else in the LOA seems to be brainwashed. Not Maseo. Not Nyssa. Not that random LOA guy who had lines when Sara showed up in S2. So WTF? I know it's going to be Oliver's loophole for being evil, but eff that (I'm was really going to try not to swear. I have failed this reply.)

 

The brainwashing doesn't make sense except to create turmoil.  To the extent that he is under the influence, it must wear off - Thea isn't under the effect of the drugs now, and the guy destined to be in charge can't be drugged forever (although how you would stay on when you come to your senses is beyond me).  I don't mind that Ra's lied to Oliver about how the LOA could be remade into whatever benign organization he wanted and withheld the LOA orientation practices, but I mind that I don't get his end game in doing all these reversals.  I don't like evil for the sake of being evil.  Is he trying to build the best LOA possible in order to fight this Damian guy?  He's watched too many soap operas? 

 

Because they needed Thea to visit Roy in 3x22 so they could fake us out with an Oliver/Nyssa marriage when it's really Thea and Roy getting married. 

 

Shhhhh let me have it

 

Well, not all engaged couples make it to the altar, so maybe (I haven't seen a preview, so let me live in this slightly more innocent world)? They also didn't position it as the big twist, given the checklist approach to the last five minutes (Starling Citythreatened! Roy alive! The kid whose name I can never fully remember!). If the show wants Thea to be unaware Roy is alive until the end of this episode because that works in the structure of the season, okay.  But there have to be more plausible reasons than "it wasn't the right time to tell you", like maybe they told her but she was too foggy to remember properly.

[calliope1975]

Who did Oliver assassinate?

 

Oliver skewered Not!Diggle at the beginning, right?

[apinknightmare]

Oliver skewered Not!Diggle at the beginning, right?

 

Yeah it was either some poor interloper who got lost in the mountains or some League dude.

But there have to be more plausible reasons than "it wasn't the right time to tell you", like maybe they told her but she was too foggy to remember properly.

 

Felicity basically told Thea that she didn't tell her about Roy because Thea had a lot on her plate.

[statsgirl]

I thought that was the drug-induced hallucination.

 

But if it was real, Oliver was drugged then, Ra's said so. So it's like Roy killing the cop under mirakuru or Thea killing Sara because of Malcolm -- no real time served other than in your conscience.

[calliope1975]

If the show wants Thea to be unaware Roy is alive until the end of this episode because that works in the structure of the season, okay.  But there have to be more plausible reasons than "it wasn't the right time to tell you", like maybe they told her but she was too foggy to remember properly.

 

Thea could have lamented about Roy being dead, and Felicity could have responded that he was alive and well, living who knows where - remember, we told you that, and Thea could have been all my bad, oh yeah, I'm still foggy. Boom. No secrets and lies and we see that Thea's still suffering after effects. 

[apinknightmare]

I thought that was the drug-induced hallucination.

 

 

It being Diggle was a hallucination. He killed a real guy.

[slayer2]

That was a great episode! I really liked it a lot.  Random thoughts and appreciation: I'm all over this Nyssa/Laurel friendship and sooooooo glad she's not dead. Way to go Thea with the jumping in when needed, very impressive. New team! Woot!, Baby Sara is stupid cute, it's absolutely ridiculous how adorable that baby is.

 

Glad to see them all hanging out at the Diggles, with some wine (I'll always appreciate that) that was a nice touch. I've long thought that this show doesn't have nearly enough (if any) of the gang just chilling out together to get a sense that these people actually LIKE being around each other. It's not just all about fighting together and I'm glad they finally showed that and I hope there will be more scenes like that to come, likewise for Laurel and Nyssa's milkshake/fry scene. I, myself have yet to try dipping a fry in a milkshake but I do hear it's epic.

 

Loved Nyssa and Laurel's (NyLau?) honesty with each other and respect for each other and Laurel apologizing for not telling her sooner and loved how hard Laurel fought to save/protect Nyssa and I thought it fitting that Diggle was the first to throw in the towel on Nyssa and Oliver since he is always the first to throw in the towel on everybody.

 

Finally,glad to see Thea all suited up and hope there will be more of that and glad that as bad a father as R'as is that he isn't so horrible as to kill his own daughter, he's still despicable but I don't think I could have stomached him for a second if any of Nyssa's blood was spilled. So glad there will be more of Katrina Law. All in all a good time although I fastforwarded the flashbacks as always. I really can't wait for the day when there are no more flashbacks to be had or when the show starts flashing back other characters because my field of fucks is barren for Ollie's Hong Kong.

 

ETA: Glad to see they FINALLY told Thea about Roy being alive, I mean Jesus Christ already, this poor girl, how much deception can one chica take?, (her and Iris West need to become besties.)

Edited April 30, 2015 by slayer2

[Racj82]

I wish we could have seen Diggle in action tonight (out on the docks). But, I'm glad he was a proactive member of the team. It only took Oliver, Ray and Roy to be out of town to for him to get his shine but I'm glad it's hear.

 

I only don't think Emily is good as these overwrought dramatic scenes. They don't anything for me. But, it's mainly the ones where she has to weep or almost weep through dialogue. It just sounds so hokey to me. I know Emily can be great so it grates more.

 

The Canary cry was not good. I assume Diggle has earplugs in. I mean he knew she was going to use it so why would he not.

 

I don't think the people behind this show are misogynists. The comic book world in particular has had it's issues with it's portrayal of women. But, with this show, I think they buck that trend on many levels. There are many strong female characters throughout this show. A lot of them have their own goals and protect themselves. They may need help sometimes but they all do. Diggle would probably be dead without Thea's help. Now, Ras is a misogynistic D bag. But, he's a d bag in general. He runs his society with a iron fist. He makes everyone around him do what he wants. All the characters in his orbit have suffered for it. Not just women. Being forced into marriage is not okay. But, I'm not angry at it because Nyssa is a lesbian or a woman. It's just bad to force anyone into marriage. A man and a woman are getting forced into this. Ras, I'm sure, give not one crap about Nyssa wants or what she wants to do. But, he has shown to be a terrible father, so nothing he does surprises me. Hey, I think we should hate villains and I can't stand Ras (for what he does). So, something is working.

 

I'm not mad about the Thea being in the dark thing. There has been so much going on. At least, the characters are being told how terrible it is to keep these secrets. I think there will be less of it from here on out. Superheros and secrets go hand in hand so it doesn't anger me when a secret is kept. There is just a thing as too long. Papa Lance being left in the dark for half a season is the prime example.

[BkWurm1]

That wasn't Oliver holding back, that was dramatic call back to the earlier Oliver "Diggle" fight. The sword pose and even the speech was a call back designed to amp up tension in the viewers.

I don't know if Oliver is brainwashed or not but I find it odd that people seem to think Not!Brainwashed Oliver is the better option. He just assassinated a innocent man, kidnapped Lyla, sliced Diggle up and almost assassinated Nyssa all to.what? Get close enough to assassinate Ra's? He had several opportunities already.this episode where he could have shoved a sword in Ra's back.

It's not so much that non-brainwashed Oliver is better but more in line with what I find believable about what we know about Oliver Queen.  If he was on pure mind control drugs then sure, I'd believe it, but he's had YEARS of mental and physical depravation and 3 and a half weeks of sleeping on the floor, getting water tossed in his face and getting meager food, it's not enough.  I've watched to many episodes of  Naked and Afraid.  If the time jump had been maybe three months I'd believe it but this, I can't. 

 

I could very well be wrong, but it doesn't feel like it right now. 

 

It's not enough to kill Ra's, they have to stop his plot with the Alpha Omega virus and stop any future "heir" from having to do something like Ra's wanted to require. 

Edited April 30, 2015 by BkWurm1

[calliope1975]

It's not so much that non-brainwashed Oliver is better but more in line with what I find believable about what we know about Oliver Queen.  If he was on pure mind control drugs then sure, I'd believe it, but he's had YEARS of mental and physical depravation and 3 and a half weeks of sleeping on the floor, getting water tossed in his face and getting meager food, it's not enough.  I've watched to many episodes of  Naked and Afraid.  If the time jump had been maybe three months I'd believe it but this, I can't. 

 

I could very well be wrong, but it doesn't feel like it right now. 

 

Yep, watching those "brainwashing" scenes, I was all - this is it? Really? That's all it took to break Oliver? Even with mind altering drugs involved, it seemed so lame. And it happened it such a short time, I was unimpressed. I could maybe believe it if he'd been grabbed after Moira had been murdered last year when he was at his lowest, but he'd just saved his sister's life, knew Roy was okay, saved the other citizens of SC, and had fun sexytimes with his girl!

[Actionmage]

They are killing millions of people in the most powerful country in the world! How do you see this going? The whole world will be after them! And they're going to fight them, how? With bows and arrow, and their smoke bombs? Scary! Real scary against a few dozen tanks.

 

While the LoA go old school, ARGUS will go ultra-modern and just bomb the city full of virus-carrying ninjas back into the old school days. So says "Amanda Waller". I mean , if 50 Mirikuru soldiers were trigger enough, think about this scenario.

 

Chiming in on the Nyssa/Laurel like. I was happily surprised that they work well. Due to that, I would like to ask Katrina Law to take a chance and please stay with the show.

 

Also adding to the happy over the group dinner. Baby Sara is still the cutest cutie pie. Plus, my Team Arrow ladies got to talk! Lyla, Thea, and Felicity. I totally got Lyla's "no, these asswipes are goin' down for makin' my baby cry and using Johnny" reaction. I loved that Audrey Marie Anderson's face never stopped giving Ollie or anyone in LoA black grimace and bass attitude. Loa knock her out? She just comes back and crawls for a weapon.

 

Thea? I want her to stay, but she deserves some time away from Hell Central.

 

I keep thinking back to the season premiere, where Ray wants to rebrand Starling in order to help revitalize the city. Well, if any actual AlphaOmega gets close to Starling? It's going to make the rebranding a bit harder, correct?

Edited April 30, 2015 by Actionmage

[Starfish35]

Nyssa and Laurel's (NyLau?)

I think Lauryssa is what people are going with.

[lemotomato]

It's not so much that non-brainwashed Oliver is better but more in line with what I find believable about what we know about Oliver Queen.  If he was on pure mind control drugs then sure, I'd believe it, but he's had YEARS of mental and physical depravation and 3 and a half weeks of sleeping on the floor, getting water tossed in his face and getting meager food, it's not enough.  I've watched to many episodes of  Naked and Afraid.  If the time jump had been maybe three months I'd believe it but this, I can't. 

 

I could very well be wrong, but it doesn't feel like it right now. 

I agree. Just three weeks to brainwash Oliver into committing mass murder stretches credulity. 

 

Oliver playing the long con also fits into how the MG and SA have been trying to sell storylines this season. For the next couple episodes, they keep insisting, Oliver is going to be really truly evil. But remember how they insisted that Oliver was dead after the midseason finale? Or how Raylicity was the real deal and that Felicity was unattainable for Oliver? Or how someone was going to die in 3x19 and it was totally going to be Roy? 

 

The harder they sell it in interviews, the less I buy it. 

[BkWurm1]

I really enjoyed Nyssa and Laurel at first.  The training was fun (though I really thought she was better than that by now) and the fries and milkshakes was fun - though I am not a fan of the combo.   Laurel was open and smiling and I believed it all.  And then she went to talk to Diggle and Felicity and I hated her.  She was smug and myopic and mean and it was how she said her lines. Everything was an accusation.  I don't get it.  Why does she act like this?  And the Canary Cry?  Used once (to break glass and get attention but nothing else.)  Pointless and confusing and it shouldn't have to be. 

 

That was this episode for me - a bunch of stuff that just shouldn't have had to be on my TV.  There were many good scenes but my overwhelming feeling was of dread and unhappiness and I am SOOOOOO not looking the final episodes.   This isn't like last year when all I wanted to know was how they were going to succeed, this feels like even if they win, they've already lost.  

[redsox7819]

Wow, Oliver being forced to marry Nyssa, such a surprising and unexpected twist. Next time just let her die.

[apinknightmare]

One thing that did irritate me about the Canary Cry is if they're going to be giving people devices like that on The Flash, they need to take at least a second or two to explain to the Arrow audience what exactly that is, because a lot of them don't read comics and I've seen a few who are confused about it. I thought for sure she was going to tell Digg about it in the van when she told him that he should stay in the van so he wouldn't have to kill Oliver - I thought she was going to explain that she was going to use it to incapacitate Oliver long enough to get Nyssa away.

 

I did love that she was 100% ready to kill him herself though, haha.

Edited April 30, 2015 by apinknightmare

[redsox7819]

 

 

Oliver playing the long con also fits into how the MG and SA have been trying to sell storylines this season. For the next couple episodes, they keep insisting, Oliver is going to be really truly evil. But remember how they insisted that Oliver was dead after the midseason finale? Or how Raylicity was the real deal and that Felicity was unattainable for Oliver? Or how someone was going to die in 3x19 and it was totally going to be Roy? 

 

The harder they sell it in interviews, the less I buy it. 

I so agree. I told my sister they should really stop doing interviews. No one is buying what they are selling.

Edited April 30, 2015 by redsox7819

[statsgirl]

It was Ra's who stopped Oliver from killing Nyssa, not Oliver himself.  What a surprise, it was a test of Oliver's loyalty.

 

Yep, watching those "brainwashing" scenes, I was all - this is it? Really? That's all it took to break Oliver? Even with mind altering drugs involved, it seemed so lame. And it happened it such a short time, I was unimpressed. I could maybe believe it if he'd been grabbed after Moira had been murdered last year when he was at his lowest, but he'd just saved his sister's life, knew Roy was okay, saved the other citizens of SC, and had fun sexytimes with his girl!

He endured worse on the island in season 1.  Remember how he was starving and Yao Fei made him kill the bird himself? And Fyers tortured him?  When you go that bad in season 1 and say it gets worse over the next 5 years, it's hard to buy that this was real brainwashing.

 

I liked the first Laurel/Nyssa fight scene the best of their scenes.  Nyssa is just so badass when it comes to taking fighting seriously. Laurel really needs that.  The milkshake scene was cute enough but I didn't like it as much.

 

Loved the dinner scene at the Diggles'.  EBR said she wants to have some scene of Felicity just hanging out in her sweats at home. I think all the characters need that.

[NumberCruncher]

I only don't think Emily is good as these overwrought dramatic scenes. They don't anything for me. But, it's mainly the ones where she has to weep or almost weep through dialogue. It just sounds so hokey to me. I know Emily can be great so it grates more.

TBH I don't think even the best of actors could pull off the ridiculous number of these type of scenes EBR has had to perform this season and make them seem fresh and interesting. I'll never understand who thought it would be a great idea to take an actress who shines best at humor and charm and saddle her with so many breakdown scenes. Not a great plan. A handful is fine. A dozen is overkill.

 

I'm not mad about the Thea being in the dark thing. There has been so much going on. At least, the characters are being told how terrible it is to keep these secrets. I think there will be less of it from here on out. Superheros and secrets go hand in hand so it doesn't anger me when a secret is kept. There is just a thing as too long. Papa Lance being left in the dark for half a season is the prime example.

Agreed. Thea had enough shit to deal with being dead/resurrected/crazy. Worrying about Roy was the least of her concerns and it's not like they kept the secret from her for months and months. *cough*

Edited April 30, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[apinknightmare]

Did they ever explain why Thea can't go outside? 

It was Ra's who stopped Oliver from killing Nyssa, not Oliver himself.  What a surprise, it was a test of Oliver's loyalty.

 

Oliver also stopped himself from killing Nyssa when he had a blade to her neck on the rooftop. 

Edited April 30, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

 

He endured worse on the island in season 1.

He endured worse in EPISODE 1.  Nearly drowned, frozen, starved, dehydrated, surely thought he'd die, his dad shot that guy and then himself, then more freezing/starving/dehydration/death thoughts, finally hit the island then saw seagulls chewing on his father's body, then buried him, then shot in the shoulder with an arrow.

[Password]

He endured worse in EPISODE 1. Nearly drowned, frozen, starved, dehydrated, surely thought he'd die, his dad shot that guy and then himself, then more freezing/starving/dehydration/death thoughts, finally hit the island then saw seagulls chewing on his father's body, then buried him, then shot in the shoulder with an arrow.

Well when you put it like that...

Not to mention that was when Oliver was still the spoilt, selfish brat. This time he had assurance that Thea was alive and taken care of, the woman he loves loves him in return, Digg will live happily with his wife and child. And Laurel is (hopefully) fixing things with Quentin.

Yeah.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Password

[AzureOwl]

Good to have some point of reference for Ra’s al Ghul’s actual age on the show. If his predecessor became Ra’s al Ghul in 1609 and the current one’s time is starting to run out in 2015, that means that each Ra’s rules for about 200 years give or take. Add to that he was already a married man before his recruitment and whatever time he spent being trained and groomed, and you get that Ra’s must be somewhere between 220 and 240 years old.
 

The canary cry was the most underwhelming and weak portrayal of it that I've ever seen...and I watched the Birds of Prey television series. So that's saying something.

Considering Cisco cobbled the damn thing together in whatever spare time he had during his visit to Starling, I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that it turned out kinda shitty. The poor man is not a miracle maker.
 

Marrying Nyssa? You can do a hell of a lot worse Oliver, and not much better.

I’ve been waiting for this plot element ever since Ra’s “I want grandkids” al Ghul was first mentioned on the show. I’m surprised it took them this long.
 

Also, can they choose a pronunciation for Ra's and be done with it! "Raysh", "Rahs", it's frustrating. I prefer the former because of Batman: The Animated Series and always assumed that was the correct pronunciation.

Apparently the different pronunciations are actually intentional. According to Andrew Kreisberg, one of the producers…

 

"This is actually something that came up a lot when we were making the show. Before the Nolan franchise, a lot of comic book fans pronounced it 'Raysh', but once Nolan started to pronounce it 'Rawz' - it changed everything. We wanted to please both the people who were fans of the comics and fans of just the films/shows. So we decided that members of the league would pronounce it 'Raysh' on the show, and non members would pronounce it 'Rawz'. "

 

Once I read that, I started paying attention and it’s actually true. I never payed it much attention before because the Spanish dub of Batman: The Animated Series has always pronounced it RHAZ.
 

While the LoA go old school, ARGUS will go ultra-modern and just bomb the city full of virus-carrying ninjas back into the old school days. So says "Amanda Waller". I mean , if 50 Mirikuru soldiers were trigger enough, think about this scenario.

That depends on whether or not Waller knows that the LoA is fighting against HIVE or not. Removing your enemy’s enemy (a possible ally against HIVE) is not something Amanda Waller would do lightly.

Edited April 30, 2015 by AzureOwl

[apinknightmare]

Once I read that, I started paying attention and it’s actually true.

 

I guess it must be some current member only pronunciation voodoo, because Sara said it the way non-members do, and so does Malcolm.

Edited April 30, 2015 by apinknightmare

[BkWurm1]

Could someone help explain something to me.  Right when Nyssa and Laurel go to tell Felicity and Diggle about Oliver's brainwashing, We come back from the commercial and immediately Felicity says:

 

 "Wait a second, Oliver wouldn't.  I don't see how."

 

Then Diggle says: "What I think she is saying is that Oliver would never do anything to hurt you, Felicity and the only reason he joined the league is to protect the people he loves." 

 

What I don't understand is the context.    I assumed Felicity was responding to Nyssa saying Oliver was in town to kill Nyssa but Diggle's line doesn't make any sense then.  Can someone help me out?  Originally I assumed that David Ramsey slipped and said Felicity when he should have said Nyssa but that seems like something they would have caught it editing. 

[patchwork]

Yeah it was either some poor interloper who got lost in the mountains or some League dude.

 

Felicity basically told Thea that she didn't tell her about Roy because Thea had a lot on her plate.

 

She'll have slightly less if she wasn't grieving for her boyfriend as well as her brother. Honestly this show, Roy could have been out of contact and the reason Felicity goes to see Thea is because he's sent a coded message. I did like the scene, and all Thea's scenes tonight, but the writers can be so lazy about this stuff.

 

I do have a hard time believing Oliver can be so easily brainwashed but I wont be surprised if it turns out to be true.

 

My big hope for S4 is that Felicity cries less, it makes sense within the context of the episode but you could probably count the number of S3 episodes without a FelicityGetsTeary scene on one hand. 

 

Making his daughter the Bride Of The Demon is a good move from Ras' perspective. He doesn't believe she's capable of leading the LOA but she'll have a position of influence and I'm assuming all members including Oliver will swear an oath to lay down their lives for her.

[BkWurm1]

Agreed. Thea had enough shit to deal with being dead/resurrected/crazy. Worrying about Roy was the least of her concerns and it's not like they kept the secret from her for months and months. *cough*

 

Except in the midst of having to deal with a lot, knowing Roy wasn't dead, would have been a really good boost to her mood.  She died. (mostly) Her brother traded his life in to a group of assassins, all she as left for family is Malcolm and the guy she loved is also dead as far as she knows in a vain attempt to protect her brother.   A little good news would have been welcome.  

 

I would be fine with it being withheld if we'd had any indication that Thea has been a all off since her return.  She was confused in NP and on the trip home but she's seemed fine since she woke up.  It only makes sense for plot purposes.  I can't make it work otherwise and I was a Chlois Theory believer!

[Carrie Ann]

My big hope for S4 is that Felicity cries less, it makes sense within the context of the episode but you could probably count the number of S3 episodes without a FelicityGetsTeary scene on one hand.

 

I actually did count at one point post-hiatus, and it was two episodes, including the one in which she only appeared for five seconds. That number may have gone all the way up to three since then, but there are already tears in the promo for next week, and no way we're getting away without them in the finale. So three total episodes this season in which Felicity did not at least get teary-eyed. It is absurd, and it's a barometer of how unrelentingly melodramatic this show has become this season.

[apinknightmare]

Speaking of Thea - what are these after effects of pitting we were told about? She seems mostly fine? Is she hiding something, or are we going to find out what they are from a person who's been pitted that we don't yet know about?

[catrox14]

Speaking of Thea - what are these after effects of pitting we were told about? She seems mostly fine? Is she hiding something, or are we going to find out what they are from a person who's been pitted that we don't yet know about?

 

#VoteZombie!Tommy

[statsgirl]

What I don't understand is the context.    I assumed Felicity was responding to Nyssa saying Oliver was in town to kill Nyssa but Diggle's line doesn't make any sense then.  Can someone help me out?  Originally I assumed that David Ramsey slipped and said Felicity when he should have said Nyssa but that seems like something they would have caught it editing. 

I also assumed it was a slip by DR and he meant to say 'Nyssa' but you're right because there's no indication that Oliver wouldn't hurt Nyssa since she doesn't fall under the category of people Oliver loves.  It feels more like a line from next week's episode (speculating) than this one.

 

Making his daughter the Bride Of The Demon is a good move from Ras' perspective. He doesn't believe she's capable of leading the LOA but she'll have a position of influence and I'm assuming all members including Oliver will swear an oath to lay down their lives for her.

In the words of William Congreve:

Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,

Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned.

 

Speaking for myself, if I were Nyssa and demoted from being the new Ra's to being forcibly married to the outsider who took my place, and that's leaving aside entirely the indignity of forced sex with a person of the wrong gender, I would be doing my utmost to bring down not only my father but also my new husband, and by down I mean six feet under.

 

Whether the rage were hot or cold depending on her character, there is no way I would put up being treated like that.  Maybe Nyssa's brain-washing in the LoA way might overcome but but if I were Ra's, I wouldn't count on it.  He should be watching his back instead.

 

Are we sure that dementia hasn't set in?  I can't see any other explanation for the stupidity of this character.

[Racj82]

This is just a question, not a attack. Has Nyssa ever said that she was a lesbian? I mean, I know that the fact that Nyssa is a lesbian being paired with a man has garnered anger from people. But, she's never said that. She was in love in Sara. Sara was in love with her while never be labeled that way by anyone. I don't recall ever hearing that being with a guy is an actual issue for her. Being with Oliver is obviously. But, I don't think it has anything to do with him being a guy.

[apinknightmare]

This is just a question, not a attack. Has Nyssa ever said that she was a lesbian? I mean, I know that the fact that Nyssa is a lesbian being paired with a man has garnered anger from people. But, she's never said that. She was in love in Sara. Sara was in love with her while never be labeled that way by anyone. I don't recall ever hearing that being with a guy is an actual issue for her. Being with Oliver is obviously. But, I don't think it has anything to do with him being a guy.

 

She hasn't defined her sexuality - we were actually speculating about whether or not she was bisexual in the spoiler thread earlier. If she is, it might've been smart for the show to mention that at some point, considering they were obviously planning on going down that path. 

[Chaser]

Watching some of the episode clips. I thought the quiet character moments were done really well. The Diggle Family dinner, the Felicity/Thea scenes, Diggle/Felicity, even Laurel/Nyssa at the beginning. But as soon as the LOA started up I was cringing all over the place. I hated Evil!Oliver and I was fully prepared to at least think he was hot. But Nope. Not At All. 

 

KC and KL are playing Laurel and Nyssa borderline romantic. More KC with the desperate, dramatic acting when Nyssa was turning herself over. And no Laurel, she is not innocent. She is a killer. A bad ass killer who can turn into a total cutie, but a killer none the less. The scene was awful for KC/LL. 

 

The Canary Cry is stupid. It reminded me of a high pitched steel wobble sheet. More annoying than anything else. And how it managed to shatter glass when all Nyssa and Oliver did was cringe, I have no idea.

 

So impressed with Thea this episode. Loved every moment with her. I really like that Oliver's make shift family became hers too. That's what I wanted to see after his 'death.'  

[ottoDbusdriver]

The Canary Cry is stupid. It reminded me of a high pitched steel wobble sheet. More annoying than anything else. And how it managed to shatter glass when all Nyssa and Oliver did was cringe, I have no idea.

 

The person to blame for this would be Cisco -- he upgraded it for Laurel.  Plus, why didn't Laurel cringe ?

[twoods]

Katrina Law is awesome. I will gladly watch a spinoff with her being a bad ass. She made Laurel likable.

Go to Roy, Thea! I just want those two to be happy together. Roy has been awesome this season.

Felicity, not so much. I just wish she had a scene that she wasn't crying in, or lecturing someone. Her scene with Thea was nice, as was the family dinner. Lyla was awesome with guns.

I hope Ra's and all those league guys (except Masseo, but he's probably a goner) die soon. Maybe alpha will be released on the league instead of SC.

[Chaser]

Kinda love that Laurel has no faith in Oliver what so ever. I don't blame her because of her experience with the guy, but it made me laugh that Diggle and Felicity were like "No Way!" and Laurel was like "But Nyssa said…" And that the group was heartbroken by what Oliver has become, and Laurel is like "Nyssa, Nyssa, Nyssa." The tone change as soon as Laurel and Nyssa went to Felicity and Diggle. Two different shows colliding. It's okay Laurel, at least it isn't Palmer Island. 

 

The person to blame for this would be Cisco -- he upgraded it for Laurel.  Plus, why didn't Laurel cringe ?

 

He lost some major points with me on that one. 

[foreverevolving]

I'm too exhausted to even fanwank the shit that went down tonight.

 

I did snicker at Oliver's face about the impending wedding, while also groaning and banging my head at the table.

I need to create a name to Thea and Felicity... do they have one already? Thlicity? Smoaked Speedy? (didn't I made a few up a couple of names a couple of months ago?... I seem to remember posting something, somewhere...)

 

The only time Buckle was interesting to watch was in the diner scenes.. the rest was groan worthy so i tuned her out.

 

Oliver not letting Maseo search Felicity.. lol. Oliver said in the premiere that she was the first person he saw as a person.. so yea that's gonna filter back in eventually.

 

Oliver repeating the mantra spoken to him "oliver queen is dead" (or whatever it was).. that was a bit scary. he sounded like a true brainwashed person.. which leads me to: I just want to say SA rocked this episode. the look on his face when Ra's held out his hand, he looked like a man who was being saved... of course this "save" is by the demon himself but none the less.. SA had some wonderful facial and vocal inflections tonight.

 

 

Also KL is officially on my 5 celebrities i'm allowed to cheat on a spouse with.

Edited April 30, 2015 by foreverevolving

[Racj82]

She hasn't defined her sexuality - we were actually speculating about whether or not she was bisexual in the spoiler thread earlier. If she is, it might've been smart for the show to mention that at some point, considering they were obviously planning on going down that path. 

I guess we will see where it actually goes. I don't read spoilers, so i don't know. But, onscreen, Laurel/Nyssa aren't coming off to me as much more different than Roy/Oliver. They could just as easy be a mentor/friendship bond and keep it at that. Also, I guess Nyssa doesn't really have reason to to call herself a lesbian or not. We've only seen her with Sara and she's not one to talk about her private life much. To me, the thought of Nyssa going from sister to sister is weirder to me than anything else (not that being a lesbian is weird).

Edited April 30, 2015 by Racj82

[Password]

Seeing Oliver (now Al Sahim) so cold actually really bothered me. I kept looking for glimpses of Oliver from last week but I only got it when he looked at Speedy and when he jerked at the marriage thing.

Yes from now on I will call it the marriage thing. I look forward to the next episodes because I just need to know what happens. Now.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Password

[Ariah]

I read a fanfic that went a similar way: brainwashed Oliver, a possibility of marriage between him and Nyssa devised by Ra's... And it was good. It hit all the marks, it wasn't offensive but kept me on the edge of my seat. The characters and their motivation felt real.

 

You know why that was?

Beacuse the writer took her time.

She took her time to show the transformation from Oliver Queen to an assasin, not some half-cooked montage. She took her time to show how Ra's proposal affected both parties not only for shock value.

And it worked.

 

The fact that storylines are so rushed on the show really hampers my enjoyment.

[Trini]

 

3. Ra's Al Ghul's plan to marry off his daughter to Oliver.  Where do I begin?  1) Ra's, after all the time and energy you just spent recruiting the guy, you're going to pair him up with a woman who doesn't like him very much, and put her in a position where she can kill him the moment they have a private moment?  Great planning, Ra's. 2)  She's gay.  3) Why do you want someone you consider a traitor married to your heir?  What I'm saying, Ra's, is that I think we all see why you need to step down from this position.

 

Seriously; I do not understand these evil overlords. Does Ra's really not see how this could backfire SPECTACULARLY? I hope that Oliver and Nyssa team up to kill Ra's.

 

 

... Except I know DC would never let this show kill that character; so I suspect there will not be a satisfying resolution to this arc.

[Velocity23]

 

Except I know DC would never let this show kill that character; so I suspect there will not be a satisfying resolution to this arc.

I hope that what Guggentroll said is true and they can actually kill RAG.